why is the bdsm scene so narrow??

[lucyboy]

Hello everyone. I can't seem to find an appropriate place for this post so I will try here. I hope it isn't in the wrong place.

I apologise for my long winded post but I would just like to see what you guys think about my experience of the bdsm scene. I will give you an idea of my sexual past as it is relevant to my experience.

Also I apologise if my criticism of the bdsm scene angers anyone but I'm being as honest as I can.

I have been submissive all my life ever since I was about 5 years old I loved bossy girls and would follow them around and provoke them into bullying me.

When I was a boy I was very little and I didn't grow or go through puberty until I was 19 or 20, I'm still a short arse but unfortunately not physically smaller than most women anymore.

When I was a kid and a teenager I found that many girls had a natural tendency to be physically rough and enjoy physically bullying me which occasionally had sexual overtones.

I never acted like a boy when I was around them, not like a girl either but definitely not like a boy.

I never played football, climbed trees or pulled girls hair, I sat on the carpet and looked adoringly up at them.

I loved their things. I loved their rooms and their clothes. I was of infatuated and dreamed about the girls I knew and thought about where they were and what they did all the time.

I used to play power games with them in which I was always bossed around and told what to do.

I used to be rude to them so they would pull my hair and beat me up. A few times girls had fun dressing me up, putting makeup on me and treating me like a doll.

I never wanted to feel like a boy or man, sexually I felt genderless.

I felt small sensual and vulnerable which was certainly not a masculine sexuality. (sexually I still feel small, vulnerable and sensual)

Whenever I masturbated I would think about a girl stripping me naked, wrestling me to the floor pinning me down and telling me she was far too strong for me as I begged her to stop.

Being a strong boy or man never felt sexy to me.

I was very disappointed when I became a teenager and realised that the dating game had nothing to do with being imaginative, power games, getting bullied or playing dress up roleplay games.

I never really liked the more adult reality of dating and sex.

Where were all the exciting games??

They seemed to be replaced by social pressures and the bossy girls had been replaced by bashful shy girls that expected me to take the lead!!!!

Luckily when I was around 14 about the same time as I was going through my crisis of confidence with girls I was lucky enough to have a friend who dominated me.

He was the same age as me and it was very erotic.

We where both smooth and not masculine in the slightest.

I loved the feeling of being dominated in a sexual sense to be naked and feel helpless was a revelation, plus I loved his cock.

We would wrestle naked and he would defeat me and make me call him King as I kissed his feet and his erection, it was amazing.

Unfortunately as he grew into a man I found his muscular hairy body a total turn off and every experience with masculinity I have had since has been a catastrophe.

As much as I love erections masculinity is a turn off for me and I'm still left with a deep burning desire for female companionship and sexual attention.

Transvestites are a great halfway house for me and I find them very exciting but I miss women.

I think you can probably see where the evolution of my sexuality comes from.

It was very confusing as an adult not fancying men, being attracted to girls but bored and intimidated by their sexuality and the rules of the dating game.

At the same time I have a cock fetish and growing up with rude comments about gays all around me. Not feeling gay or straight but feeling both.

Sexually I was very confused, not because I didn't know what I wanted but because I couldn't find like minded partners.

All the boys where too masculine and the girls where just so busy conforming to the world of lovey dovey bliss and domestic normality my sexuality was never gonna fit.

So in my early 20's when I found the bdsm scene I thought I had found the place where I belonged, a place to spread my wings.

But I was to be disappointed once again, the bdsm scene suffered from narrow rules and a serious lack of dominant women.

The few Dominant women that I found on the scene where either pro Dommes, old enough to be my mother, seriously overweight or in a long term relationships.

Sex was nothing to do with domination for many of the women I met.

The BDSM scene as a community seemed to be more about paraphernalia (butt plugs, whips, floggers, gas masks), fetish clothing and public play than genuine sexual exploration.

I go to so many munches and meets but it is all about Japanese rope techniques or electro torture and it is filled with goth couples and lonely Dungeons and Dragons enthusiasts. Much more cliquey than I expected and to be honest it can all be a little bit geeky.

I realised the difference in what I'm looking for and what the bdsm community ordain good male subs deserve.

I'm looking for a healthy sexy athletic woman who is looking for a normal equal relationship, apart from sexually! shes the boss in an adventurous sex life that we could both explore.

When I expressed this to people on the scene I was immediately stopped in my tracks.

According to almost everyone I spoke to, I was crazy to expect a relationship with a Domme, insane to think that any Domme would actually choose a submissive as her sexual partner.


Also I noticed that there didn't seem to be any emphasis on the bullying and coercion, the stuff that I so enjoyed as a boy.

The idea that a dominant woman would actually use her strength and her exposed body to physically overpower me was looked on as a nutty idea and highly unlikely.

Subs on the bdsm scene are subs and obedient from the start!! So the rigid rules state.

The pleasure I get from a bossy girl turning me from a willful boy into her obedient wimp was not going to happen.

I enjoy the creation of my submission, the act of being broken by a woman

Being a ready made sub defeats the object the game.

It's being cruelly put in my place and experiencing her physical strength that is the pinnacle of sexual submission for me. All things flow from there. Without it there is nothing but play acting.

It's the memory of what she did to me and how she easily defeated me, how I was helplessly pinned beneath her and how I begged. That gives spice to all the obedience and servitude that follows.

Without that initial act of dominant physicality I lose the essence of the whole scenario.

Going to a dungeon to play Yes Mistress no Mistress games is just far to predictable and impersonal for me.

I have found my sexuality is almost a kind of heresy in the eyes of the bdsm community and it is only a heresy because I'm male.

If I was a female sub I would be actively pursued and desired as a lover and sex toy by both male and female Dominants.

As a guy I'm only worthy of being a human ashtray, domestic servant, public play slave or gift buying money slave.

To look for love, sex, relationships or any kind of equality is beyond the pale for a male sub.

Even all the sexually submissive guys don't want the kind of sex that I consider quite pedestrian really when you compare it to some of the ideas in the BDSM scene like electro torture and scat!!!!.

It seems to be a very unique sexuality for a man to purely love a strong raw dominant female without all the paraphernalia and the title of Mistress.

To be turned on by domesticity, whips, gimp outfits and exclusion from sex is a most common scenario but to actually desire intimacy with a powerful commanding woman is very rare even among subs.

(or maybe most subs in their hearts want nothing more than a strong sexy naked woman to use her body to overpower him before sex but know that it's not going to happen and are afraid to ask for fear of being accused of topping from the bottom etc)

I really don't understand it myself.

To think of all my years dreaming about strong femininity to find the BDSM scene was like finding paradise.

Or so I thought. But to my disappointment I found that what I considered to be part of the BDSM world is not actually excepted as having a place in that scene.

And the problem with that is that the BDSM scene is the only place for submissive men to go.

There is not a place or a community for sub guys who want a sexy imaginative relationship that doesn't involve BDSM and all the narrow confining rules that the BDSM world requires.

It's funny if I wanted a woman who had thousands of pounds worth of dungeon equipment to strap me to a cross and whip me I would be able to find that relatively easily.

But to want an ordinary sexy woman to enjoy teasing me sensually and use the body she was blessed with to hold me down and make me submit to her will, all within a loving (or at the very least sexual) relationship is seen as maybe asking for too much. (Oh and a spot of girly dressing up but what self respecting woman wouldn't enjoy dressing up games??):wave:

Why is a whole lifestyle with expensive paraphernalia and narrow rules so accepted and a desire to have a bit of sensual rough and tumble in bed seen as a nutty idea. Surely my sexuality is far less elaborate, dark and and farout than most BDSM fantasies???

I will never know, the mind boggles.

But I feel positive my Woman is out there somewhere....I hope:wave: :wave:

I have been told that just wanting dressing up games and bedroom wrestling does not qualify me a submissive.

I have to have a desire to be a human ashtray, endure pain and be excluded from intimacy to qualify as a true sub.

By the rules of the BDSM world I just want kinky sex, which makes me a pervert and a nuisance in the eyes of most dominant women......How cruel :dont:

So let me make myself clear, I am sexually submissive, so much so that I find it impossible to have an intimate or sexual relationship with a man, woman transvestite or transsexual unless that person is dominant.

I am completely incapable of having vanilla sex without the spice of domination, this means that I cannot find a partner so it causes allot of anguish at times, so please don't tell me I'm not a sub just because I don't fit into the narrow confines of the bdsm scene.

PS:sorry for the long winded post and please don't reply with anger at my criticisms answer constructively please.

[ceegee{Benz}]

Wow...is all I can say.

least your not scared to express your feelings and that I applaud you.
I Hope that you do find the woman you have been looking for...smiles

tgc and be safe
cg

[_ID_]

I can see where your frustration comes from. There are stereotypes even in the BDSM community. That is what you are encountering.

If I were you, I would just quietly attend the meetings, offering tid bits of your view when asked. Then when that queen you search for shows, you will be able to dazzle her with your understanding of what is going on. so she sees you worthy to be made to feel small by her.

Good luck in your venture.

[cariad]

Lucyboy, I am replying with anger. Anger at those who have made you feel unwanted or unaccepted because your tastes are different from theirs.

You refer to the 'rules' of BDSM - where are these rules, and who wrote them? I know there are certain schools of thought regarding it, and they have their own guidelines, and if you follow those then you can consider yourself to be within their fold. I am yet to hear of any such guidelines covering the whole spectrum of BDSM.

There is perhaps a place elsewhere on the forum for a discussion of some of the different philosophies which lurk under the BDSM umbrella, but this is not it.

I read your post fascinated, you are obviously an intelligent sensitive man who has come to a reasoned assessment of what you desire. I am sure your woman is out there, and when she finds you will be overjoyed at doing so, and it will not matter to either of you what titles others choose to give you.

Hugs and hoping you find this virtual community of real people more accepting than some others you spoken out into.

cariad

[anonymouse]

Hello lucyboy,

I agree with the sentiments of all the previous responders. It is a sad reality that the so-called BDSM 'community' can be just as pedestrian in its collective attitudes at times as any other 'community'. It's my experience that the human herding instinct is such that even within an alternative lifestyle such as BDSM, those who don't run with the herd can sometimes find themselves marginalized. Don't let this get you down but rather, take pride in the fact your particular kink puts you into the realms of the BDSM 'fringe'. Right now you feel as if your kink is unique but be assured, there's an old BDSM maxim called Ugol's Law that essentially says, 'No matter how weird or unusual you think your kink is, there's at least one other person out there somewhere who shares it with you.' Obviously, finding that person isn't always easy.

Something else you might like to consider is BDSM, as an 'alternative lifestyle', is only one of many alternative lifestyles. There is often an overlap between groups as well. You've already experienced the overlap between the goth scene and the BDSM scene. Similar overlaps exist between the BDSM scene and the gay and lesbian scenes as they also do between the swinging scene and BDSM.

From what you say, I feel the woman you seek can likely be found more easily in the swinging scene. However, getting into that scene to start with could be problematic as a single man, though I've heard swingers' clubs (like private BDSM ones) will periodically have 'open nights' that permit single men to attend. If you ask around the fringes of the BDSM scene you may also find somebody who can provide you with an introduction into such a club.

Whatever you decide to do, I'd encourage you to stay in touch with the BDSM scene (and with the people here at this forum in particular). Your kink may be unusual if compared to 'mainstream' BDSM practices, but it's by no means unique.

Incidentally, strong focusses on particular kinks, such as masochism in submissives and 'no sex rules' tends to occur in pockets within the BDSM scene. I've known kinksters in one city where BDSM wasn't regarded as BDSM unless there was a bullwhip involved. In another, piercing and needle play was the prevailing BDSM aesthetic. What I'm saying is simply people within the BDSM scene can sometimes appear quite one-dimensional unless you step back and look at things from a wider perspective.

One final thought. A BDSM relationship really isn't a whole lot different to any other type of relationship. You need to get to know people as people first. If time isn't taken to do this at the outset, what generally happens is your kink becomes your 'identity'. For some people, perhaps many people, this isn't a problem. But, if your kink is something subtle and more complex, you need to clearly establish your own identity outside of your kink, even though it's clear from your post your identity is closely intertwined with who you are as a person. If nothing else, this tactic will give you better defense against ignorant and intolerant people.

Good luck with everything,

anonymouse

[MajesticFae]

I agree with cariad. I am replying with anger, and it's anger to those who made you feel unwanted and like you're not a true submissive. Just because you don't like the toys and whips and the extreme aspects of BDSM doesn't mean by a long shot that you're not a submissive.

In my opinion you've been poisoned against us by a group of "narrow minded bdsmers". BDSM is what -you- choose to make it. I've been a submissve all of my life and am just now getting to really know myself as such. I've always wanted me to throw me down and fuck me senseless, but now spanking and bondage and other things appeal to me too.

And you're completely right that bossy girls turn into shy girls around puberty. I don't know why it happens, but it does. I think it has to do with that old fashioned up bringing that men are somehow superior to women... and that women are supposed to be helpless I can still command a crowd and be bossy and domineering, but I know in my heart that I live to serve.

There are sterotypes in the bdsm world as IDCrewDawg said, but there are many of us who just like living in a world of kink. I think you might be one of us. These people on the forums are nicer than some of my real life friends and I love each and every one of them dearly. Stick around and even post a personal - you might find the woman of your dreams here.

I personally think that to be in a BDSM relationship, you have to realise that the people involved are equals. It takes love and trust and commitment to really make things work.

We all have different kinks that we're in to. From what I understand you want a strong dominating woman to exact her will on you in a sexual way. She doesn't have to humiliate you or stomp on your bits to get you off. I think you're probably the most basic form of a male submissive. I think that's great too.

I wish you lots of love and luck in your search for your perfect woman. I really hope that you find her. And if you choose to stick around here, you might realise what a great bunch of people there are, as I have. You might even find your woman here. Who knows? We might be that group that's completely on the opposite end of the spectrum from the bdsmers that you've met along your journey.

Thank you for voicing your feelings and I hope to see other's opinions on what you have said.

[lucyboy]

Thankyou for you're replies all of you. Wow this is refreshing. Whenever I have raised these subjects on other forums I usually receive a blizzard of anger from Dominant women who assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, and have no idea of what it is to be truly sub.

I live in London UK which I would have thought being such a big modern city would be very open but unfortunately not. It's probably a cultural thing. I'm currently living in Thailand which although lacks a bdsm scene is just so relaxed. If I smile at a woman out here she smiles back whereas in London as a single male you are viewed with suspicion at all times by women on the scene or in the wider vanilla community. Women at home have an air of aloof unapproachability about them, there is about them that vibe that says I'm fabulous and confident so you better be or "don't even bother"

As you can imagine for someone with such a potentially problematic sexuality this makes any chance of having confidence when aproaching women very difficult.

I spose that it is not only London any big western city would be the same. I'm sure the culture in New York or Paris would be the same.

The attitude of most of the women on the bdsm scene I have met has been one of combative selection, whereby you will be made to feel unwelcome until you can prove that you're are either outstandingly masterful or totally submissive from the outset.

I don't know if the no sex rule is only a London thing but it seems you have all encountered this line of thinking. I just wonder why this rule only applies to us male submissives?

A male dom is entitled to have sexual urges, female subs are entitled to desire a sexual core to their submission whether they be lesbian or straight. Female Dommes are expected to have a sexuality although most of the female Dommes I have met reserve sex for vanilla guys or even a dominant male partner.

It only seems to be male subs that have this yolk around our necks. It makes you feel a bit like an untouchable.

Recently I have started dressing up as a girl and I'm not nearly as marginalized. Do you think it might have something to do with guys sexual essence being tied to an active sexuality?

I mean a Dominant or submissive woman can look gorgeous but us blokes don't seem to have that aesthetic quality and without an active sexuality we in some way don't have much to offer. Neither super sexy looks and fabulous clothes or a drive to fuck like a train. Without either asset women lose interest. I'm just speculating. I wonder what you guys think?

I have been told that it is totally biological that female sexuality is so tightly bound to child rearing that subconsciously women only have sexual partnerships with men who can bring some kind of masculinity and strength to the relationship.

It is funny this is not only something unique to the bdsm scene most bisexual women who have profiles on the net start by saying ''NO MEN"

Anyway I'm feeling much more positive since I started dressing as a girl, it seems to be opening doors.....

[diamondcontrol]

Women at home have an air of aloof unapproachability about them, there is about them that vibe that says I'm fabulous and confident so you better be or "don't even bother". . . . The attitude of most of the women on the bdsm scene I have met has been one of combative selection, whereby you will be made to feel unwelcome until you can prove that you're are either outstandingly masterful or totally submissive from the outset. . . . Neither super sexy looks and fabulous clothes or a drive to fuck like a train. Without either asset women lose interest. I'm just speculating. I wonder what you guys think?

I must say I am less sympathetic than the subs who have responded. You complain about Dommes who put out a vibe that says I'm fabulous and confident." Well, it is a natural vibe for a Domme to have. And yes, I will only accept someone equally "fabulous", but you seem to focus on superficial qualities in people. A male sub does not need to have "fabulous" looks or super sexy looks or be a perfect submissive doormat, but he must be a fabulous person - I deserve and will accept nothing less. At the same time that you attribute superficial motives to Dommes who are not interested in you, you dismiss Dommes who are not superficially up to your standards -as too old or too fat. As a Domme who is primarily interested in the mental and sexual aspects of power exchange, I can honestly say perhaps some introspection about less superficial qualities might aid you in your quest.

Diamondcontrol

[MajesticFae]

At the same time that you attribute superficial motives to Dommes who are not interested in you, you dismiss Dommes who are not superficially up to your standards -as too old or too fat. As a Domme who is primarily interested in the mental and sexual aspects of power exchange, I can honestly say perhaps some introspection about less superficial qualities might aid you in your quest.

Diamondcontrol

I think he's looking for a certain type of woman, Diamond, and everyone is allowed to have standards. He wants the one who is athletic, trim and sexy. If he chooses to use these "superficial" qualities to narrow his search, then he will get less results than if he opened up his search to include dominant women of all ages, shapes and sizes. I'm pretty sure he knows this.

I think with the porn industry today we rarely see normal sized females, all we see are these big tittied blondes with super flat stomachs, too much make up and barbie like proportions because that's what the public wants to see. Yes there are other types out there, but this is the type I see most often. I consider myself "thick." I'm in between bbw and stick thin, I like my size because I'm super cuddly and I know that I have a "sexy element" about me and I can command it when need be. Not every female you're going to come across is a size 4 or have a tiny tiny waist. It's just not going to happen. But if it is your dream to find this perfect woman who is athletic, trim, sexy, and all that jazz, then please, look for her. It might take you longer to find her because you're narrowing your search down to one type of person.
The Domme with the right mindset for you may not fit into your physical preferences in the woman, and the woman who fits the body image may be completely off in the mindset that you're looking for. Give and take a little. Get to know peoples minds before their bodies.

Being that I'm not a Domme, I can't speak for them, but there is nothing sexier than a man, no matter his shape, size, physical appearance who can think for himself and is willing to please you. I swoon over the intellectual types. I have my standards when seeking out a Dom for myself, if you can't captivate me with your words, you're an automatic out.

I truly hope you find what you're looking for, lucyboy. I somewhat agree with Diamond in that you're living in a sort of fantasy in looking for the woman who has all of these qualities rolled into one (mindset, physical appearance, personality), but if you believe she's out there, then I really hope you two find one another and click.

[nightsilver]

MajesticFae and diamondcontrol, I think his desire for a younger and athletic woman was so that she would physically be able to control him through her strength and endurance. Thus her body type is an extension of her personality.

Lucyboy, I wouldn't rule out the pleasantly plump dommes either. She may have a nice set of toned muscles underneath that you haven't noticed. For the most part it sounds like you have been running into dommes that prefer cuckolding more than anything.

[gloombunny]

I just wonder why this rule only applies to us male submissives?
Because there are a lot of bad apples in that barrel. Guys who want to be spanked or humiliated a bit but want to be in control of both the sex and the relationship. Guys who think dominant women are sexy but don't respect them as people. That sort of thing. Unfortunately the deck is stacked against you from the start because of them, and it's hard to prove you're not one of them except by being deeply submissive in all aspects and not trying to get any sex.


Neither super sexy looks and fabulous clothes or a drive to fuck like a train. Without either asset women lose interest. I'm just speculating. I wonder what you guys think?
I think you don't know very many women. Or maybe you do, but in that case I'm glad I don't know the women you know.


I have been told that it is totally biological that female sexuality is so tightly bound to child rearing that subconsciously women only have sexual partnerships with men who can bring some kind of masculinity and strength to the relationship.
You've been told a lot of crap.


It is funny this is not only something unique to the bdsm scene most bisexual women who have profiles on the net start by saying ''NO MEN"

Same bad-apple problem. So many men read "bisexual" as "will have threesomes and put on shows for me" that a lot of women just don't want to bother trying to find one who doesn't.

[MajesticFae]

MajesticFae and diamondcontrol, I think his desire for a younger and athletic woman was so that she would physically be able to control him through her strength and endurance. Thus her body type is an extension of her personality.

Makes sense. =) I understood that but apparently didn't manage to convey it in my post! Whoops!

[lucyboy]

I'm not being as superficial as you think. I'm not looking for skinny athletic young blonde women.

The bigger the better, I like nothing more than a woman with unusualy thick legs as long as she is not very fat and unhealthy.

I fancy women of all shapes and sizes the only things that turn me off are obesity, being too weak skinny waif like and unhealthy. Or as old or older than my mum.

I love older women but I have a limit thats all.

I don't think these are really very outrageous preferences, I don't fancy blondes more than brunettes, I'm open to most things! the size of bust isn't important to me big or small it doesn't matter, I love pale skin, tanned bodies, black women, oriental, Indochinese, fiery Celtic redheads. Damn the world is a wonderfull place:)

In my search I have tried relationships with an obese Domme (who was the most wonderful woman sexually and mentally) and had a relationship with a 60 year old Domme which is older than my mum, the problem was I wasn't sexually attracted to them.

I wanted dearly to be attracted to the big woman I was with but my mind and body was not co operating.

Surely it is most important that I don't waste mine or other peoples time by pursuing relationships which are bound to fail??

Diamondcontrol, thankyou for you're reply. It is one thing being selective and knowing you're fabulous intelligent and in demand.

That is fine, I know I'm fabulous intelligent and good looking, unfortunately not in demand lol:icon176:

It is another thing being aloof cold and unwelcoming which seems to be the default setting for male female interaction in western society as a whole and is magnified on the bdsm scene.

I understand it is partly due to scary pervy single men turning up and drooling, who wants to be around people like that.

The problem is there really is nothing in the way many Dommes act that says they have any interest in sub men other than as doormats, whether it be financial or domestic.

The most welcoming of Dommes are usually looking for a public play slave but this usually has nothing to do with sex or relationships. It's a scene thing.

I'm just speculating but I think this cold unwelcoming selectiveness is in part due to the biological fact that females select and men compete to be chosen.

In our society it is magnified by a hangover to our recent religious past that said sex was bad.

Then add the default play hard to get role that vanilla women subconsciously adopt, then fire the whole thing up with glamorous celebrity culture "because I'm worth it" and with feelings of absolute power that comes from being a Dominant woman who is in demand and you have a recipe for unapproachability and occasionally cruelty and arrogance.

All this in alternative community where most of us are struggling to find what we want and are looking for acceptance.

Just as you say I'm being too picky by expecting this or not wanting that. I have to say that the aloof selectiveness of most Dommes has meant they have missed out on getting to know a wonderful little man....... ME!!!

I'm a trained Thai masseur, a fantastic cook...no no an absolutely fantastic cook.

I have the best record collection money can buy, I read many books and love to have intelligent conversation. I'm in touch with my feminine side and my emotions. But I'm very confident masculine in manner and looks (when not dressed as a girl) and assertive in everyway apart from with people I'm sexually attracted to

I love tidying and cleaning, I'm fit and good looking and I love buying shoes, sexy womens clothes and make up, nothing better than a girly night in trying on clothes and drinking wine. Not a bad catch for any woman me think's...The best of both worlds:wave:

lol lol lol

Anyway enough already.

I hope you all understand I'm not really as picky as I sound and everything I have said is just me trying to workout a very difficult situation in my mind, so no need for anger.

I don't know you Diamondcontrol you might be the friendliest and most welcoming Domme in the world, but if you're not maybe after reading this you could smile and say "hello come and join us" when you see a shy single man at a munch or a party.

You never know he might be the most fabulous person you have ever met. lol

PS:Please forgive me but I would like to ask you a personal question Diamondcontrol is you're dominance sexual? and if so do you extend that sexuality to male submissives????

[MajesticFae]

Thanks for clearing up a few misconceptions I had about you. You sound utterly fabulous. Here, you get a cookie. *hands lucyboy a cookie*

[lucyboy]

Hi NatalieD, thankyou for you're reply. I understand there are allot of weird wankers out there and it only makes sense to guard against that.

But to condemn all sub men to total fawning submission when for allot of us it is a sexual thing not a life controlling certainty. And to decide that because there are wankers out there the men you desire will be frozen out of sex and intimacy, just incase they are wankers!!!!!

Anyway I don't think that dodgy perverts is the only reason that Dommes have the "no sex" rule for male subs because many Dommes are quite happy to have sex with dom guys or vanilla men, it's only the subs who are excluded almost universally.

It seems to me that my quote about feminine biology and primal sexuality might have more to say about this than you think.

Also allot of the Dominant women I have talked to never grew up with an urge to dominate guys and have erotic dreams and desires that involve having their sexual partner at their mercy.

Many Dommes I have met where introduced to the bdsm scene later in life and enjoyed the power, the sense of community, the clothes, the equipment, the techniques and the amazing effect that this all has on sub men but sexually they don't fancy sub guys and still look for alpha male between the sheets.

This is not to say that all Dommes are like this, not by a long chalk but there is definitely allot of women on the scene who actually exclude submissive men from sex because they are not sexually attracted to them.

When you said

''I think you don't know very many women. Or maybe you do, but in that case I'm glad I don't know the women you know."

I think you're being unfair, I'm just speculating on why submissive guys exclusively are excluded from sex.

And I think it is a fair point to say that it is probably masculine active sexuality that attracts women to men and seeing that many sub men lack the desire to be active and masculine in bed and don't have wonderful outfits and a sexy femininity to keep the attraction we tend to find that we are marginalized.

It explains it better than just saying there are allot of perverts out there.

Sexual urges are a powerful thing, the sheer number of scary men is not enough to override the sexual urges of submissive females or for that matter Domme women.

It's quite plainly not about men being obsessed by sex and wanting to filter out the dangerous perverted dodgepots. If it was the "no sex" rule would apply across the board to all men as we can see it is reserved to sub men, potentially the least dangerous and worrying of the lot.

I just wish if Dommes don't find sub men attractive and are only are looking for a man to beat and do domestic duties they would be totally honest about it then I can avoid them.

With all due respect to the Dommes out there I think all men should avoid such Dommes because attraction should be essential to all relationships whether they are subDom or vanilla.

Why spend you're life living a lie, better to submit to a woman who finds you attractive and gets turned on by dominating you. The feeling should be mutual.

Or am I being to picky again??? Is this breaking rule number 1!!!!! NO SUB SHALL TOP FROM THE BOTTOM??????

My god what a mine field I never know if I'm saying the wron thing:eek:

[lucyboy]

Why thankyou MajesticFae, I'm blushing

[gloombunny]

This is starting to sound like one of those "why don't women like nice guys?" rants.

[lucyboy]

I didn't say that, I said why do Dominant women only exclude sub men from sex and intimacy?

Surely as Dominant women submissive men should be way up their list as potential partners not relegated to "NO NEVER" "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT"

The fact that dom guys don't have this imposed on them and many Dominant women (who exclude sub men) will have sex with vanilla or dom men shows that it has little to do with filtering out perverts and wankers.

Unless most slimy wankers happen to be submissive which I doubt. The kind of guys you were talking about who are looking for threesomes and shows are usually chest thumping alpha males not the kind of guys to pluck up the courage to admit they are submissive.

Do you think I'm saying, dominant guys and vanilla guys are always bad, submissive guys are always good???

Have you been reading my posts??????????

I'm just politely trying talking about my situation and speculating about the whys and wherefores of the restrictions and limits that only seem to apply to men with submissive sexualities.

I'm not even moaning or upset, I'm far too accustomed to my situation for that. I'm just exploring what for me is still a confusing situation.

If this makes you uncomfortable I apologise. You don't have to read my posts, but if you do contribute please read my posts carefully as you're interpretation of what I'm writing is wrong and you are acting very defensively when all I'm doing is talking about my experiences.

Try being constructive not combative.

[gloombunny]

I guess you aren't familiar with the "women don't like nice guys" meme, then?

It's a kind of rant/whine frequently seen online, where some guy who has no luck with women complains that they only want jerks and pretty faces, when really he never gets any because instead of making his intentions clear he just acts friendly and comforting while secretly expecting to be rewarded with affection and sex. And when the woman he's been befriending hooks up with some other guy who actually asked her out or whatever, he gets all passive-aggressive and complains that women have bad taste in men, that she was leading him on (even if she never even knew that he wanted to get in her pants), and similar crap.

I'm not saying you're doing that.

What I am saying is that I'm seeing the same kind of blanket generalizations, the same sense of entitlement, and the same indignant self-pity that characterize those "nice guys".

[lucyboy]

I haven't generalized I even said not all Dommes are like that by a long chalk and I have gone out of my way not to say many, not most or all Dommes but many Dommes have a no sex for sub men rule.

You are acting as if I have said something you don't like? Have I touched a nerve?

If I have tell me the problem you have with what I have said instead of sniping with sly comments or trying to write me of as a self pitying loser.

You don't know me I'm a very successful and confident person, I might have difficulty finding a partner but rest assured I'm not the kind of person who is self pitying.

If you don't have something constructive to say why bother posting at all????

[Rhabbi]

lucyboy,

First off, let me say that just because your local community is narrow does not mean that everyone is narrow. My time in the "lifestyle" has taught me that there is something for everyone, but a lot of people give up because they cannot find it. I know there are young women who are in shape that would like to meet someone like you. There are a few here. They want a physical struggle, and they want to win that struggle. They do want to dominate through force, just like some men like to dominate through force. This thread raised some interesting points, and I will let some people know about it, and you. Perhaps something will come of it. But do not give up just because it does not happen quickly, relationships take time. If you want a relationship, be prepared to invest it.

[nk_lion]

Hey lucyboy, I read your thread when it first came out and I decided to not post since I really couldn't offer any suggestions. But I did think about it, and had the initial perception that you were after the slim attractive kind of domme. You clarified that point later, but the point is that the way you worded it gave me and others that assumption. The way you also stated that dommes were only interested in ashtray type male subs also lead me to think that perhaps you had the misfortune that you only ended up meeting a particular kind of domme, or that you simply gave up to easily.

I'm not a psychologist, nor do I claim to have a high intellectual level in deciphering the human mind, but I feel that perhaps you might want to try the aggressive sub approach where you go for someone who you think you may be attracted to. I'm a switch, and never entertained the thought of being a sub only, till some members who were so increadibly submissive in nature while talking to me which led me to realize that I could perhaps one day be a dom only person.

NatalieD is merely giving her advice. I don't think she is insulting you in anyway. I actually think she raised a valid point on the whole nice guy bit. I know that in the first two years in high school, I pretty much fit that description, and later became more aggressive in pursuing relationships which was a lot more successful.

Anyway, just my two cents. I sincerely wish you the best of success with your search.

[lucyboy]

Why thankyou Rhabbi, that is very kind of you. I have been pursuing my dreams for too long to give up now.

I have been told I can post a personal here but I can't findout how to do it. I tried to post a pic a few times and it just came up with an error message.

Sometimes websites are designed all arsewise lol

I hope you didn't design it, if so I retract that comment.

Thanks again.

[Rhabbi]

Why thankyou Rhabbi, that is very kind of you. I have been pursuing my dreams for too long to give up now.

I have been told I can post a personal here but I can't findout how to do it. I tried to post a pic a few times and it just came up with an error message.

Sometimes websites are designed all arsewise lol

I hope you didn't design it, if so I retract that comment.

Thanks again.

Not me, lol. As for the personal, try here:
bdsmlibrary.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=11

[nightsilver]

lucyboy, NatalieD is trying to be helpful for you. She is just approaching things from a different perspective. She initially wanted you to realize something about the rest of the male subs and thus why the Dommes around you may have such a slanted view on their male subs. Then when you listed how you are a good guy, it took the air of "nice guy" rant because you were showing you were a nice guy thus it isn't your fault that you cannot get a Domme.

NatalieD was trying to point out how she is viewing how your presention of yourself. Regardless of if you are using "blanket generalizations", have "the same sense of entitlement, and the same indignant self-pity that characterize those 'nice guys,'" it may be helpful to consider why she (and perhaps otehrs) view you in this way.

The things we hate to see about ourselves are negative, but if we don't know about them we cannot strive to fix them and become a better person.

Like nk_lion, I do not think NatalieD was trying to insult you although it is hard to not be offended when someone points out possible negatives (be it personality, in writing, art, etc.).

[lucyboy]

Ok it sounds like you guys know NatalieD well and know she isn't being the spiteful Domme.

I apologise NatalieD, I'm just so used to getting a negative response from Dommes when I raise this subject like I'm upsetting the status quo and should keep my mouth shut.

lucyboy slinks away with her tail between her legs

[Dragon's muse]

I just wish if Dommes don't find sub men attractive and are only are looking for a man to beat and do domestic duties they would be totally honest about it then I can avoid them.

With all due respect to the Dommes out there I think all men should avoid such Dommes because attraction should be essential to all relationships whether they are subDom or vanilla.

Why spend you're life living a lie, better to submit to a woman who finds you attractive and gets turned on by dominating you. The feeling should be mutual.

Or am I being to picky again??? Is this breaking rule number 1!!!!! NO SUB SHALL TOP FROM THE BOTTOM??????

My god what a mine field I never know if I'm saying the wron thing:eek:

Okay, getting here late for the party, but let me wade in anyway. You say that you think ALL MEN should avoid these types of Dommes. What if that type of Domme is exactly what a sub man is looking for? When did you acquire the right or ability to speak for all sub men?

Not every sub man is looking for exactly the same thing you are, and to dismiss other's relationships as "living a lie" just because it would not meet your needs is a bit egocentrical.

Best of luck to you and i sincerely hope you find what it is that you want.

[lucyboy]

I don't know of anybody who wants a partner who doesn't find them attractive.

Female Domme/male sub is the only kind of relationship where the attraction isn't mutual. What a strange set up.

I can think of no other kind of scenario where two people of the opposite sex would pair up when only one person actually fancies the other.

I think if asked most single sub men would love their Domme to allow them intimacy and sex, they just resign themselves to playing second fiddle to her real lover because that is all their Domme is willing to offer.

Beggars and choosers etc.

I would be surprised if that wasn't the case but as you said I haven't acquired the ability to speak for a whole group of people and I didn't claim to have that ability.

I know there are guys who have wives or a vanilla relationship and go to a Domme for their submission but get their sex and intimacy with their partner at home and I'm sure the situation suits them fine.

But I think you will find the majority of subs deep down are hoping to find a lover to submit to not an aloof acquaintance.

There are many different types of male sub and I didn't claim any different.

You are seeing things in what I have written that aren't there.

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself.

I was just expressing a wish that sub guys wouldn't settle for less than what they deserve, if they desire sex and intimacy then they should try to avoid the Dommes with the no sex rule.

Maybe if us subbie guys stood up for what we wanted a bit more, less Dommes would be so quick to relegate sub guys to a mere irrelevance.

It's all a pipe dream I know but maybe male subs would be valued more if they reserved their submission for Dommes who where prepared to give a little love as well as Dominance.

If I had said I think Domme women should avoid subs who don't value them would that have got you're back up?

You would probably have agreed with me wholeheartedly, surely a Dominant women deserves the best she can get.

Then why not extend you're good will to the guys. We could use some of it.:smilie_orange1:

[Dragon's muse]

I don't know of anybody who wants a partner who doesn't find them attractive.

But attraction and its expression can wildly differ from person to person.

Female Domme/male sub is the only kind of relationship where the attraction isn't mutual. What a strange set up.

I can think of no other kind of scenario where two people of the opposite sex would pair up when only one person actually fancies the other.

All i can say is that BDSM, for a great many of us, is about so much more than sex.

I think if asked most single sub men would love their Domme to allow them intimacy and sex, they just resign themselves to playing second fiddle to her real lover because that is all their Domme is willing to offer.

Beggars and choosers etc.

I would be surprised if that wasn't the case but as you said I haven't acquired the ability to speak for a whole group of people and I didn't claim to have that ability.

I know there are guys who have wives or a vanilla relationship and go to a Domme for their submission but get their sex and intimacy with their partner at home and I'm sure the situation suits them fine.

But I think you will find the majority of subs deep down are hoping to find a lover to submit to not an aloof acquaintance.

There are many different types of male sub and I didn't claim any different.

You are seeing things in what I have written that aren't there.

Sorry, then, it must have been those bits about "wishing all men would. . . . ." and "why live a lie".

I'm not speaking for anyone but myself.

I was just expressing a wish that sub guys wouldn't settle for less than what they deserve, if they desire sex and intimacy then they should try to avoid the Dommes with the no sex rule.

Maybe if us subbie guys stood up for what we wanted a bit more, less Dommes would be so quick to relegate sub guys to a mere irrelevance.

It's all a pipe dream I know but maybe male subs would be valued more if they reserved their submission for Dommes who where prepared to give a little love as well as Dominance.

If I had said I think Domme women should avoid subs who don't value them would that have got you're back up?

Actually i am collared property, but the broad generalizations just irritate me. i don;t think anyone should be with someone who doesn't value them, but perhaps, just perhaps, those people in those relationships are getting something less tangible that what you realize. Just because it doesn't satisfy you, doesn't make it "living a lie".

You would probably have agreed with me wholeheartedly, surely a Dominant women deserves the best she can get.



Then why not extend you're good will to the guys. We could use some of it.:smilie_orange1:

In the final analysis, no one puts a gun to anyone's head and makes them get into a relationship that is less than what they want or need. Maybe they get more than you know.

Bon chance!

[diamondcontrol]

lucyboy, I think what everyone is trying to convey to you, it that your sour attitude may be colouring your perceptions of the Dommes you encounter as well as their perceptions of you.


PS:Please forgive me but I would like to ask you a personal question Diamondcontrol is you're dominance sexual? and if so do you extend that sexuality to male submissives????

Since you asked, yes, my dominance is sexual, and it definitely extends to male subs. To be blunt, I like having male cock in me and expect my sub's cock to be put to good use for my pleasure. A sub's role is to serve his Domme - for me that includes providing the Domme with sexual services. Since my vanilla life is quite demanding, I have no desire to micromanage a doormat.


I think if asked most single sub men would love their Domme to allow them intimacy and sex, they just resign themselves to playing second fiddle to her real lover because that is all their Domme is willing to offer.

You are wrong about this. In my own explorations, I have communicated with many single sub men. I have had to weed MANY of them out because they have little desire to serve sexually - and that is an essential requirement for me. Some are not what I consider submissive - they have their particular kinks or fetishes which they want a Domme to fulfill - but have no real desire to submit and serve (i.e. put HER pleasure first). Others are so into being feminized, they have no interest in sexually penetrating a Domme. Still others find they lose their submissive headspace if their cock receives pleasure. In fact I was speaking with a sub earlier today who seeks the emasculation and humiliation he feels when his cock is completely ignored in the D/S relationship.

The point is that it doesn't matter if many or even most are not what you seek. The trick is to find the few Dommes who are compatible, and to display an attitude which won't cause them to reject you out of hand.

Diamondcontrol

[Rhabbi]

lucyboy,

Maybe you should stop and ask why a Domme is willing to spend so much effoert correcting your misconceptions. Think.

[anonymouse]

lucyboy,

You wrote this earlier:


Thankyou for you're replies all of you. Wow this is refreshing. Whenever I have raised these subjects on other forums I usually receive a blizzard of anger from Dominant women who assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, and have no idea of what it is to be truly sub.

and later this:


I'm just so used to getting a negative response from Dommes when I raise this subject like I'm upsetting the status quo

Given that you've apparently broached your question in more than one other forum before here and that, by your own admission, you've stirred a lot of anger in dominant women, may I ask why you chose to post your question into the 'Questions for a Master/Mistress' forum? What I mean is, your question is one that is probably best answered by a submissive man. Have you spoken with other submissive men about your situation?

It seems to me that your experiences have all been with dominant women and, to a degree, you've approached them with the expectation they'd be hostile and "have no idea of what it is to be truly sub" (your words). You've said the same thing in various ways numerous times throughout this thread. Similarly, you've said you cannot understand a D/s dynamic in which sexual and/or physical attractiveness isn't a factor, and that's fine. Sex versus no-sex in BDSM relationships is often debated. There is no one answer and to speak in universals such as all Dommes or true submissives is something to avoid, unless you're looking to start an argument.

I'm not suggesting you're whole intent here was to start an argument but again I ask, why didn't you seek the answer to your question from fellow submissives when you plainly admit dominants have not been able to supply you with a satisfactory and sympathetic response? When I first read Natalie's response to you I was taken aback by her blunt answer. But, that's her manner and I have no issues with that. I happen to be a sucker for 'nice' men however, I don't like being played for a fool either.

That said, if you're genuine (and I'll continue to assume you are) I still think you'd have better luck in the swingers' scene. By its very nature, the swinging scene attracts women who enjoy sex and aggressively pursue it. Since sex seems to be the primary focus of your search and since BDSM doesn't always focus on sex, it seems logical then that your odds of success would be better in the swingers scene. That's my honest opinion, anyway.

Good luck!

anonymouse

[gloombunny]

Ok it sounds like you guys know NatalieD well and know she isn't being the spiteful Domme.

Heh. I'll admit to the insulting - I'm sure I could've phrased the things I said a lot more politely - but I don't think I'm being spiteful, and I'm definitely not a domme. :)

[lucyboy]

Diamondcontrol you make valid points, you're experience is obviously different from mine. But that is not surprising as life is complicated.

The fact that you know male subs who's submission is not sexual doesn't change the fact that for many subs their submission is sexual and emotional and the same can only be said for relatively few Dommes.

Don't get stuck on my use of the word sex, male subs are in many circumstances deemed not worthy of intimacy or a relationship of any kind beyond public play or a round of pain and humiliating domestic duties once in a while.

I think that it cannot be healthy for guys to to be hoping for something that they will never get.

Maybe it would be better all round if some subs stood up for themselves and refused to give their submission to Dommes who refused to acknowledge them as anything but a sub.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely! Maybe it would be better if we wrestled a little bit of power away from the Dommes as human beings with needs not as subs. Pipe dreams, nothing more.

It's never gonna happen but I don't see why this upsets people.

If I said the same about a female sub who was in relationship where her Dom didn't find her attractive.

If he expected expensive gifts, only used her for domestic duties and sent her packing before going to meet his vanilla girl friend you would probably all agree!

That scenario is appalling it stinks. It is pure exploitation on the guys part. The female sub should get shot of that guy as soon as possible and go and find a Dom who will adore her in all her submissive glory.

But when I change the genders. The reaction is well she is entitled to it and if the bloke is happy who am I to argue, so what if he wants more he should be happy getting something.........

There are double standards here.

There are many sub guys living unfulfilled lives and being exploited by women who use them to do the cleaning inflict a bit of pain and send them packing before she goes to meet her husband, female lover or Dom partner.

But this is seen as a positive thing not exploitation. 'You go girl', 'shes worth it' and 'he should consider himself lucky'.

Can you not see the hypocrisy in that??

Dragons Muse you are totally stuck on four words I used in everything I have written, which is allot as you can see. ALL and LIVING A LIE.

When I used the word 'all' I was referring to all men who desire more from women than Dom/sub. Guys who have a need of companionship, above and beyond their submission.

I agree maybe my use of the word ''all'' was not appropriate but considering the amount of words I have written, to grasp on to these 'four words' and not let go is to not see the woods for the trees.

I'm just a little cross dressing subbie boy and as such not infallible so don't condemn me for the use of four ever so slightly inappropriate words.

You keep talking about how I'm telling people they are ''living a lie''

I wasn't saying that at all, but to clarify my point I will retract that statement and put it another way.

Why go through life with you're emotional and sexual needs being unfulfilled, to do that is to live in a kind of limbo.

I can see I'm going to have to be very careful, if you guys are going to pick the odd line out of everything I write and accuse me of arrogance and sweeping generalizations.

But I realise how using the word ALL could be perceived. So I apologise for that but when I said ''why spend you're life living a lie'' it wasn't an accusation so much as a whimsical lament.

[TomOfSweden]

I think it's down to statistics. I think people in the BDSM scene are fairly liberal as to how a relationship should look. This is down to numbers. There are many more submissive men for every dominant woman than submissive woman for every dominant man.

This I think creates different cultures. Dominant men have to work harder than dominant women to get a partner, which means they need to work more on themselves to attract women. I think chances are pretty good the members of the two categories would be just as demanding, if they could get away with it.

We are social creatures, and we adapt out tastes after what is available. Lucyboy, your attitude seems to me to be fairly healthy and it would surprise me if you wouldn't find a woman to suit you if you look hard enough. And maybe you are right. Maybe the woman of your dreams won't be found in the BDSM scene.

None of the five long term slaves I've had through out my life have I met through any BDSM comunities. Me personally, I think it's a terrible place to meet future partners. Maybe it's a Stockholm thing.

Being dominant or submissive is something we are regardles scenery, labels or rubber clothing.

[anonymouse]

When I used the word 'all' I was referring to all men who desire more from women than Dom/sub. Guys who have a need of companionship, above and beyond their submission.

Buy a dog.

[lucyboy]

Anyway, I can see I'm upsetting people with what I'm saying so I will stop now. You all know my opinions on this topic.

If you want to ask me something about what I have said private me if you must then hopefully world war three will be avoided.

To everyone who has been supportive and understanding about my thread, thankyou very much.

I assure you I'm a genuine person and I have posted some pics to prove it. xxxx peace and love

PS:The pics of me dressed are not very good, I have a crap wig and they where taken on a phone. It was the fist time dressed and I was wearing someone else's clothes. The next pics of me will look fab

[tessa]

lucyboy, what a cutie-pie you are! Delightful! Can't wait to see the next set of fab pics. :)

I am distressed, however, that you would choose to stop the discussion you have going here. This is a community of strong opinions and even stonger people expressing those opinions. Not everyone can agree on each point made, no matter who is saying it. You hold this matter very close to heart, so when anyone says anything that seems to "attack" your position, of course you are going to see it as such. But I have been here for a bit now, and even when opinions differ greatly between members, respect and value for the other has prevailed in 9 out of 10 times. My guess is that if something you said is pointed out by another, it is only as a way to gain some more clarity and insight from you. And in that way, perhaps you shine new light on this subject for yourself? Just a thought.

Knowing that the journey can sometimes be difficult to navigate, I wish you nothing but all the best in your search for the One. May she be all you ever desired and more.

But please? Don't discontinue what is obviously a thoughtful, intelligent discourse on a subject from which many may truly benefit.

tessa :wave:

[Clevernick]

Agreeing with Tessa --

I don't think you're being offensive, lucyboy, just a little upset from your experience in a way that comes across as whiny.

I've certainly done the same myself when I'm feeling marginalized and put upon. But this group seems like an understanding bunch, and even those who have highlighted some of your words and said why they are too overgeneral, or why they disagree with them, have not been offended. And they mostly forgive the whiny-sounding bits and respond mostly to your good points.

And I think the discussion is helpful, so long as everyone's listening.

From another guy whose kink makes him unlikely to get what he wants any time soon, I'm wishing you the best of luck, and like I'm learning to have, PLENTY of patience and tolerance.

[lucyboy]

I understand Tessa and thankyou for being so nice but I seem to be rocking the boat a little bit and I don't want to make enemies or turn people against me.

Also people are not just airing their opinions, some people seem to be getting the impression I'm a bit of a moaning minnie and trouble maker which I'm not.

If that is how my posts are starting to sound I think it would be wise to nip it in the bud.

I hope you understand.

Of course if people really want to carry on the discussion I'm sure I wont be able to keep my gob shut. I suffer from foot in mouth disease.

Lets see what happens

[lucyboy]

Thanks Nick. As I said I'm a mouthy boy so I will probably pipe up if the discussion continues.

By the way is that Steven Colbert??

I never heard of him until Richard Dawkins was on his show, very funny. I thought he was for real at first.

I recently found a website called www.onegoodmove.org it introduced me to a whole world of Steven Colbert, Bill Maher and Jon Stewart clips.

American tv gets better and better, it's a shame we don't get this stuff in the UK. We only get crap like Friends, shiny happy people being shiny...yuck

Although we do get Curb You're Enthusiasm which is pure genius..

Brilliant, clever and witty stuff and they say Americans are stupid and don't get irony. Oh how wrong they are..

[Clevernick]

I think Americans were unable to understand irony until Jon Stewart came along. After he taught them what it was about, they were finally able to appreciate the wonder and the truthiness that is Colbert. He's also my age, an improv actor, and I do so want to be more like him. Like you I can't get him on the "telly" here in the UK so I have to check the internet frequently.

I really enjoyed your posts -- they're extremely complete and touchingly honest, yet I couldn't believe that you'd found such a narrow range of people on the scene.

Even in the short time I've been in two online communities, I've seen a wider range of desires than you mention in your list, and you've been looking for years! I wonder if you're somehow selecting the wrong people to begin with?

Also, check out the famous "Acid test" posting, widely available. I think it's somewhere on this forum, but I know it's here


This posting taught me a lot about why I was being blown off, despite my honest intentions -- I looked too much like the fakes described here. These tests err (very properly) on the side of caution, and I just got caught in the false positives. Maybe you are too.

You might find insights on that post (I did) on how not to act around potential dominant females too.

Best of luck,

[Dragon's muse]

It's never gonna happen but I don't see why this upsets people.

Just an observation, but you seem to be more upset that the rest of us are.




Why go through life with you're emotional and sexual needs being unfulfilled, to do that is to live in a kind of limbo.



But what i am trying to get across, apparently not doing a very good job of it, is that there are subs (male and female) whose needs are fulfilled by the non-sexual services that you consider exploitative. i know this will make you think i am even more of a bitch than you already do, but the only relationship your have the right or capability to judge is your own.

Just as there are some Domme's who desire an emotional, romantic, supportive relationship with their subs.

You are having a bit of trouble finding the right person for you. i sympathize with that.

i am a writer and editor. i believe that words are tools and should be used with precision. No apologies for that.

Bon chance,
muse

[Rhabbi]

Very nice pics lucyboy. remeber something, just because the local group is narrow, does not mean the whole world is.

[lucyboy]

Hello Dragon's muse. What you seem to be saying is I can't have an opinion. It's ok for Dommes to be as opinionated as they choose and demand what they want.

Well all I'm doing is claiming that right for myself, so shoot me.

As a writer you should know it's impossible to really know if another writer is upset or just calmly stating an opinion.

I can assure you I'm not upset but you seem to be by my opinions and I find usually when people get upset with me airing my views it is because I'm a sub guy.

If I was a Domme saying I deserve better and certain male sub behavior is wrong, I probably wouldn't be coming in for the flak you are aiming at me now.

I don't think you're a bitch. I think you are being unfair but not a bitch.

PS:I have already stated if the no sex caveat is mutual thats fine. It's the sheer volume of Dommes who use subs as gift buying domestics in the full knowledge that the sub wants more. That is what I'm criticising. This kind of exploitation derives it's power from the ''no sex'' rule. And I think it is a sad state of affairs..

[Dragon's muse]

Hello Dragon's muse. What you seem to be saying is I can't have an opinion. It's ok for Dommes to be as opinionated as they choose and demand what they want.

i never said that you could not have an opinion. Only that you really should not attempt to generalize and project YOUR opinion to others. Or judge others and their relationships by standards that you set for yourself.

Well all I'm doing is claiming that right for myself, so shoot me.

As a writer you should know it's impossible to really know if another writer is upset or just calmly stating an opinion.

I can assure you I'm not upset but you seem to be by my opinions and I find usually when people get upset with me airing my views it is because I'm a sub guy.

Actually, if i were upset, i can assure that there would be no "seem to be" about it.

If I was a Domme saying I deserve better and certain male sub behavior is wrong, I probably wouldn't be coming in for the flak you are aiming at me now.

I don't think you're a bitch. I think you are being unfair but not a bitch.

PS:I have already stated if the no sex caveat is mutual thats fine. It's the sheer volume of Dommes who use subs as gift buying domestics in the full knowledge that the sub wants more. That is what I'm criticising. This kind of exploitation derives it's power from the ''no sex'' rule. And I think it is a sad state of affairs..

As i have already said, no one puts a gun to these sub's heads and makes them go into and stay in a relationship that is not right for them. Perhaps, you should take up your issue with them.

Namaste,
rose

[lucyboy]

Nick I have found many diverse people on the net but you rarely get to meet women through a website and many online bdsm communities frown on using the personals to try to meet potential partners.

I know it defeats the object of having a profile but there is still a stigma around contacting someone you don't know through the personals section of a bdsm website.

It rarely results in rudeness but invariably you're memo is ignored and you will hear people bemoaning unsolicited contacts even if their profile says looking to meet.

It's funny this strange attitude does not exist on the t-girl sites I frequent and it is the opposite on gay websites where everyone is contacting each other.

Because of this I had to venture out of my comfort zone and actually get involved in the bdsm community for real and that is when it all narrows down and the rules start to be applied.

In the words of Jimmy Greaves...''It's a funny old game"

[lucyboy]

Namaste to you to, I haven't generalised apart from when I used the word ALL which I later retracted.

I still think you are applying double standards.

No one is putting a gun to the head of a submissive woman who is with a guy who exploits her but you wouldn't be so uncaring about another woman in a situation like that would you.

You would probably tell her yourself that she is worth more and she should kick the bum to the curb.

So why do you have a problem with what I'm saying???? It's not so different..

[Dragon's muse]

Namaste to you to, I haven't generalised apart from when I used the word ALL which I later retracted.

I still think you are applying double standards.

No one is putting a gun to the head of a submissive woman who is with a guy who exploits her but you wouldn't be so uncaring about another woman in a situation like that would you.

You would probably tell her yourself that she is worth more and she should kick the bum to the curb.

Actually, if she is voluntarily in whatever situation and not complaining, i would tell her no such thing. If she complained about it, i would tell her to either get out or stop complaining. i would say that to anyone in any unpleasant situation -- either change it or accept it. i found out a long time ago that unsolicited relationship advice is usually not well received.


So why do you have a problem with what I'm saying???? It's not so different..

OK, i'm done here. You are 100% right. Have a wonderful life.

[diamondcontrol]

Don't get stuck on my use of the word sex, male subs are in many circumstances deemed not worthy of intimacy or a relationship of any kind beyond public play or a round of pain and humiliating domestic duties once in a while.

Why are you assuming that the male subs don't crave a round of pain, humiliation, domestic duties? Many do.



I think that it cannot be healthy for guys to to be hoping for something that they will never get. Have you heard of "The Secret" - if you send this negative attitude out into the world - you never will get anything merely because you don't expect to get anything.


Maybe it would be better all round if some subs stood up for themselves and refused to give their submission to Dommes who refused to acknowledge them as anything but a sub. . . . I agree entirely. No sub, male or female, should ever give their submissions to a Dom/me who does not fulfill that sub's needs. I really find it impossible to believe I am the only Domme who thinks this way.


But when I change the genders. The reaction is well she is entitled to it and if the bloke is happy who am I to argue, so what if he wants more he should be happy getting something.........

There are double standards here. Pardon me, but this is bull. I have seen no one in this thread say a person (male or female) should be happy/content with getting anything less than what that person wants in a relationship.


There are many sub guys living unfulfilled lives and being exploited by women who use them to do the cleaning inflict a bit of pain and send them packing before she goes to meet her husband, female lover or Dom partner.

But this is seen as a positive thing not exploitation. 'You go girl', 'shes worth it' and 'he should consider himself lucky'.
This is not exploitation if these are the ways in which a sub chooses to serve. If you don't choose to serve in this way, fine. A good Domme will use a sub in a way which best suits her and the individual sub. For example, I am corresponding with an attorney sub. Domestic chores would obviously play a minimal part of any service I would expect from him. I am also corresponding with another sub who longs to serve domestically. When I told him I am too possessive to ever share a sub, he "suggested" that perhaps I might instruct my sub to wash my friend's car when she comes to visit. Which actually brings me to the question - exactly how are you submissive? - you consider service, pain, submitting to a Domme's control and desires "unfulfilling" and "exploitation." Perhaps the others are correct in advising you to seek a vanilla woman.

Diamondcontrol

[Ruby]

Hi lucyboy,

Welcome to the forums!

My name is Ruby. I'm a switch.
A pet to my husband and a Miss to my sub.

I think it's great that you know the type of woman that you are seeking. I'd appreciate it if you didn't badmouth the type of women who don't interest you.
It goes under the old saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."




Also I apologise if my criticism of the bdsm scene angers anyone but I'm being as honest as I can.

lucyboy, it's great that you are honest with your opinions. They are yours and no one is going to take them away from you.

Where you've continually gotten yourself into trouble is by attempting to place your opinions upon an entire group of people or to make declarations for others than yourself.


The fact that you know male subs who's submission is not sexual doesn't change the fact that for many subs their submission is sexual and emotional and the same can only be said for relatively few Dommes.

Who are you to make this claim?
It's backed up by what? A study, statics?

This may be an observation you've made based on the local groups you've encountered, but again, each group is different and a whole community cannot be judged by a single group's actions.


I have been submissive all my life ever since I was about 5 years old I loved bossy girls and would follow them around and provoke them into bullying me
...
So let me make myself clear, I am sexually submissive, so much so that I find it impossible to have an intimate or sexual relationship with a man, woman transvestite or transsexual unless that person is dominant.

Knowing yourself and want you want is a key step in finding the right partner. Go you!


I am completely incapable of having vanilla sex without the spice of domination, this means that I cannot find a partner so it causes allot of anguish at times, so please don't tell me I'm not a sub just because I don't fit into the narrow confines of the bdsm scene.

Okay, I won't tell you whether or not you are "a sub".
Only you can decide that for yourself.


PS:sorry for the long winded post and please don't reply with anger at my criticisms answer constructively please.

Constructive criticism:

1. If it's your opinion, please don't state it as a fact.

2. In my opinion: Your posts have been argumentative, whiny, passive-aggressive and often arrogant. They are long winded, attempting to prove yourself right with a barrage of information. If I was seeking a submissive partner for any type of activity, I would mark you off my list as requiring too much maintenance.

3. When you write long missives, expect other forum members to dissect them.

4. Ask yourself why you joined this forum and what you'd like to get out of it?
What type of friends do you want to make?
What would you like to accomplish?
What have you accomplished so far?
Did you get what you wanted?

Wishing you success,

Ruby

[lucyboy]

Spanking new pictures, it's me. I feel so sexy xxxxxx I hope you like them:wave:

PS:I have already defended my position enough times you are just repeating the same misinterpretations I have already dealt with. I might deal with you're posts later but I get the feeling this is spiraling away into bickering

[tessa]

I have already defended my position enough times you are just repeating the same misinterpretations I have already dealt with. I might deal with you're posts later but I get the feeling this is spiraling away into bickering

lucyboy, I have read through this thread a few times now. While I can appreciate your frustrations and your longing to find the right person for you, it is more difficult to appreciate your negativity towards the members here who are simply posting and trying to either guide you or simply point out the obvious misunderstandings that have come about in this thread, most notably by the original poster (that would be you).

While the free exchange of ideas and thoughts is the hallmark of our community here, I will not tolerate what many, including myself, see as threatening comments. And your comment above, especially the highlighted part, smacks of a threat, albeit a very mild one.

So, feel free to post your pics, feel free to ignore the good advice that has been so freely offered to you. But don't ever feel that you have the right, even in an casual comment kind of way, to threaten any of the members here. That is not what we are about here.

If you have any questions at all, please direct them to me in a PM as I have the idea that you might consider this "bickering" and I don't wish to bicker with you in any way.

Have a most lovely day.

tessa

ps. Nice blue outfit, by the way.

[Rhabbi]

nice pics lucyboy.

And as tessa said, we are not trying to bicker with you. We here your hurt and want to help.

[Carmenica Diaz]

The scene is as narrow or as broad as you wish.

Although it is becoming easier for women to express dominance, it is usually difficult as it appears "normal" for women to be passive and that's what we are subtly taught from a young age.

Perhaps the relationship comes first? And then the trust so you are comfortable to reveal desires.

I discovered my dominance through my first husband and it opened up a world that I didn't know existed! Now, could not imagine being the passive one in a relationship!

[Widget]

I have read this thread through and I think there are many well thought out points made here. However this thread is also becoming argumentative and that needs to end or I will lock it. Everyones point of view deserves respect and while you don't have to agree with it, some of the posts have come across as inciting.

Originally Posted by lucyboy
I have already defended my position enough times you are just repeating the same misinterpretations I have already dealt with. I might deal with you're posts later but I get the feeling this is spiraling away into bickering

Lucyboy if you would like to discuss anything further via pm with me I will be happy to answer that way but as tessa has said, no one here wishes to engage in bickering and I think that you would find a world of support in the members here for any issue you wish to discuss.

[lucyboy]

It seems to me that the word bickering is seen as a threat and insult on this forum but I don't know how that can be???

It is just an word that means argumentative.

If you all read the whole thread after I decided to end the conversation.

Tessa and others asked me to continue. I made two brief defenses of my view neither of which involved personal attacks or rudeness of anykind.

Then as Widget says it was all getting argumentative so I said I might deal with the replies but probably not and suddenly I'm being accused of bad behavior??

I was just trying to avoid exactly what Widget is trying to avoid and suddenly I'm an inconsiderate bad guy who wont accept freely offered advice and throw threats around!!!

Surely you are referring to someone else???

I don't understand.

I have threatened no one, I have not attacked anyone and the word bickering is just another way of saying argumentative.

What has everyone got so upset about????? Did I miss something?

When I said I might deal with you're posts later did you think I meant deal with them in a Goodfellas way??

It is not a threat?? To deal with means to sit down and type an answer not to put the reply in the trunk of my car, drag the reply out to the weeds and in Mafia lingo whack it.

Also the people I have defended my views to where not giving me advice they where mostly disagreeing with me and telling me that my views where wrong. I think it is only fair for me to defend my view in this circumstance.

It seems that what many of you where saying was cool at the beginning of the thread you now see as threatening negativity.

Why do you see Dragonsmuse, Diamondcontrols and Ruby's posts as totally reasonable and just offering advice but mine you have decided where negative argumentative and threatening.

Why be so positive all the way through the thread then find fault with the last few posts non of which involved insults, attacks or threats???

Is it me are are you finding negativity where I'm just passionately defending my view and threats where I'm just trying to do what Widget seems she wants me to do which is not to get involved in an argument???

[gloombunny]

You keep saying you're not attacking anyone, but that doesn't make it true. Just because you're doing it with a bit of indirectness and passive-aggressiveness doesn't mean you're not doing it.

Although I was surprised to find that anyone interpreted what you said as a threat. I thought "deal with your posts later" pretty plainly just meant "write up a proper response to them later".

[lucyboy]

Ok thankyou Natalie I appreciate that and I assure you you are wrong about me attacking anyone.

I have not, knowingly attacked anyone, I do not wish to attack anyone all I wanted to do was passionately defend my views.

I understand that many of you are picturing an angry little rejected man sitting here all lonely petulantly typing away with feelings of hurt in my heart.

Well that is not me it is a mirage that people are applying to my words.

I'm happy and not hurt, I'm positive not negative. I'm assertive not aggressive and I'm livin life to the full not being lonely and petulant.

Please people don't attach emotions to my words that are not there. Once again I assure you I'm not angry or attacking anyone.

Peace my lovlies xxx

[gloombunny]

No, see... when I say "even though you claim you're not, you really are attacking people", you're supposed to say something like "But I don't see where I attacked anyone. Can you point out some examples?" To just claim again that you're not attacking anyone is rather missing the point.

You accuse people of double standards and hypocrisy. That's an attack. You use straw-man arguments, ascribing unfair motivations to anyone who disagrees with you and then chewing them out for having unfair motivations. That, too, is an attack. You play martyr and bemoan how misperceived you are, which lets you indirectly label everyone who disagrees with you as an unreasonable bully. That's like some kind of fucked-up meta-attack on the entire conversation.

Actions speak louder than words, and words like "I'm positive not negative" and "I can assure you I'm not upset" are getting pretty drowned out here.