Help - emotional blackmail?

[moptop]

Hi, I'd reallly appreciate some opinions and advice, please. Sorry, long post! Please read...

My new Master in France is mostly online - we have met and played, but it's difficult. We are both still getting to know eachother, taking it fairly easy in some respects. But he's quite pushy in some areas where I'm not at ease particularly. Exhibitionism being one of them.

When we were first talking, before we'd started playing, he was explaining his relationship and breakup with his last sub - a recent break - and generally discussing his attitude to his subs. He said she had been ill and depressed, and that he had lost her because he had been gentle towards her, when in fact she wanted him to be harsh to help her forget her illness (note - she didn't tell him so). He felt that he had become more inflexible, as a lesson learnt from his previous relationship, and that he expected of me a commitment (to my submissiveness to him) that would move towards the absolute - I'm sorry if my translating isn't always that good! - and that the submissive had to accept the consequences of this inflexibility without talking about blackmail.

I asked him where blackmail came in I'll give you a bit of the dialogue

>I had a girlfriend, who called herself submissive (my italics) who reproached me with that (using blackmail
- Perhaps you were
- We will have to see what happens
> If I have a request
> I expect my companion to respond to it
> If I don't accept refusal
> And for example, leave the conversation
> It's not blackmail
> She took it as 'you do this or I'm going' and considered it blackmail
- It's still being angry - being outraged - perhaps without understanding the refusal, or giving the sub the chance to understand the possible consequences of her refusal
> I generally make things very clear
> Otherwise, I don't make a demand and above all it has no consequences
- I'm not sure I understand the last bit, I think it's something I will have to learn to understand

Well - OK - that conversation was some time back.

Last night, he came to see me (virtual) for the first time for 4 days (he's busy). Since I'm on automatic OD when he's not there, and since I also have to take myself to the edge as part of my daily exercises, you understand, I was quite eager to see him!

Being in France we have shutters. I'm on the top floor with small windows. I had just got out of the shower, and was fully naked. Note, the open or closed state of the shutters has been discussed in the past. Next conversation - we have only just said hello.

- Oh, you'd have been proud of me just now for how I shut the shutters! With cars going by. OK, they're down there and I'm on the 2nd floor but even so
- But yes, I have closed them - windows directly opposite, no no no
> Leave them open!
- I can't, I can't
- They're directly opposite, really, I can't
> Very well
> Goodnight
- No don't do that!
> I don't wish to disturb you
- Oh Monsieur, don't be like that, I beg you
- Don't go
> Then do as I ask
(thinking pause on my part...)
- OK
(I go and open the shutters...)
(he invites me to start webcam)
> Show me the window
(I do)
> Very good
- I'm not a cheat
> I know

Now, I'd like to have discussed that further with him, but suddenly he went on to another subject which is dear to my heart - to do with crops - and it went by.

He's only been domming for 3 years or so, and has only had 3 subs - all of whom were novices - plus one experienced friend who both subs to him (when she is free) and dommed his last sub. And I only found out what a submissive was in about September last year and he is my first real Master - mental, emotional and physical, both involved.

Is this emotional blackmail, and if it is, is it a perfectly valid way for him to get me to do what he wants? I feel angry about it. I feel it is unfair. If I'd said no, he'd have gone. Surely that is not just to me, when he knows - and knew from the outset - that I find any sort of exhibitionism hard? I am trying - I no longer wear any underwear - I went to meet him wearing nothing but a short wrap-around dress (and shoes...) - and it was a WINDY day - I am trying. Shouldn't he also respect that and not push it too far too fast for me? I felt really uncomfortable about this.

And, if it is, let's say, unwise behaviour on his part - how should I go about telling him so, and trying to find ways for him to get me to do what he wants, but not like that?

Thanks all (oh - any passing subs, please feel free to give your opinion, too)

[Guest 91108]

He has pushed passed a limit/boundary and continues with exhibitionism. It seems to me that would be good enough.... If you are so uncomfortable with the exhibition .. and his threatening denial by removing himself or cutting off communication ... I find that problematic.

From where I stand as Dom, to me and me alone ... I find absolute submission to be a very difficult demand to impose. Others expect it and all the rigidity that goes along with it ...

I don't know how the rest of the relationship is .. so i find commenting on other parts not within what you wished to know.

Ultimately ... I think what he's doing is wrong. again IMO. And I've got a feeling that when you confront/talk to him about it.. you may find his view of absolute submission leaves you out. Some just have a very different view of what D/s is all about.
I hope things turn out better than that though.

[moptop]

Oh, Wolfy, thanks for answering so promptly - and so you know, I hadn't even registered the 'absolute' bit until today - which isn't what I was thinking about for this post, but it is another question, isn't it? My French is pretty damn good, but nevertheless I often don't understand things properly at the time he says them, and suddenly the next day I'll think oh THAT'S what he meant! This one has obviously taken a little longer...

I'm not at all sure how absolute his absolute his, actually - he certainly doesn't want a domestic slave, for example. And he doesn't expect me to be in sub role 100% of the time when we're physically together - although principally I am communcating with him only as his sub when on line. If I need to talk to him out of sub mode, I use his non-dominant address. So we may get a fair way - we can but try, after all.

I'm still confused about the how of achieving my submission, in this case: if he wants to take me places, he can't necessarily expect me to get there straight off: I do feel this is a form of coercion, and that seems wrong to me (as to you). Putting the absolute submission to one side - although I guess I can see the two are linked!! - how do I get him to understand that he is in fact using blackmail, and it's wrong?

What other training techniques might I suggest to him? What level of patience should a Master expect to show?

?

That sort of thing.

[_ID_]

IMO rather than removing himself from the situation when you didn't feel ok with doing as he had asked, he should have remained, and worked through your issue of exposure, find out why you felt you couldn't and then coached you in steps rather than BLAM do it or Im gone type of approach. Part of being Dom is teaching your sub how to over come the fears of tasks you wish them to complete.

[moptop]

Thank you, ID, and I do feel that too - but do you have any suggestions how I can try to move him towards that sort of approach - without topping from the bottom!

[moptop]

Thinks - is that advice I should be asking of other subs, in fact?

[Mr W]

IMO - Your Dom needs to learn your limits and be able to discuss pushing them without you feeling threatened. If he cant then i'm afraid theres going to be issues. A good Dom will always be open to listening to his sub if she/he has issues they are not comfortable with.
Good luck

[Guest 91108]

I was thinking on this while i ran to town....
If he has only been Dom for 3 years .. he should not have a problem with you discussing that there is a problem with pushing to far continuously.
How do you train to be a Good Dom? very good question. I think either one has it or they don't. IMO. If some one has to be made to consider options and the compassion of others... it's going to be a long learning process.. some take a lifetime and never get there.

[TomOfSweden]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. How could I not respond to that.

Here's a question. Is he using his earlier failed relationship as blackmail? All you're hearing is his interpretation of went wrong. You've no idea why their relationship really failed. Maybe he doesn't. It sounds a bit like he's playing it to get his will through?

I personally think he sounds a little insecure and needs to get his will through to feel build up his ego and feel good about himself, no matter what. This is based on only the little few exerpts you've posted which means I could be dead wrong. It's just a feeling I get. There's nothing wrong with him feeling insecure, but is good if he understands and can talk about it. We all have insecurities so it's good if he can openly discusses them. And it's also nothing that can't be worked through.

Now to answer your question. Naturally you want him to push your soft limits and not your hard limits. He's obviously pushing your soft limits very well since the long relationship. The problem is that he has a hard time respecting your hard limits. Could the problem be you? Have you communicated well enough that this is a hard limit for you and it will never make you feel good. Making it as clear as possible that you haven't and will never have a fetish about exhibitionism.

I think three years is a long time and you should by now be passed this. But then again, mostly seeing each other on-line does give plenty of oportunity for missunderstandings :)

I'm guessing your problem is simply down to communication. Either you are too bad at communicating what you want and what your needs are, or he is bad at gauging it. Men understand hints very badly. No matter how much it may feel awkward, talking to a man as if to a four year old is sometimes be what we men require to understand. It's not because we don't care, we're just different/dumber.

I have far too little info to judge if he's being abusive. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.
-Tom

[moptop]

Thank you Tom - and thanks everyone else, of course. I'm glad I managed to flatter your ego, Tom - I shall obviously have to work on flattering his a bit more.

I will say that some of your advice is not quite up the right street because I havn't explained myself properly - it is not a 3 year old relationship, it is only 3months and a bit since we started talking. So we are only just starting to learn eachother. The 3 years bit is how long he has been a dom for.

I don't think exhibitionism is an absolute hard limit for me - not a neverneverneverno (like, say, scats). I just find it really difficult. I've been thinking about it too, and I think one of the things that annoyed me is actually that he could have got me to do it without resorting to blackmail - I do think of it as a last resort - and then I think I'd actually have enjoyed it. More Masterful persuasion and use of thrall... I did tell him early on that, in the online context, the worst punishment I can think of is for him to cut the conversation. I guess I don't think having a bit of trouble pushing myself deserves the worst.

We aren't communicating enough at the moment, you are absolutely right. I'm communicating like anything in writing - I write him an incredibly detailed journal every day, just because I like doing it, and I talk to him about everything. I'm not getting feedback from him though - I guess I'm not talking to him about that!! But we do have the problem that he has very little time available at the moment. For example, I am unlikely to get to talk to him until next Monday now. I am hoping that as of next week things will start easing up for him, though, and we will get some more time together so we can really talk. It seems so important to me that we start down the right path.

My belief in him is such that I was jarred to think he might be using his last relationship as a means to an end! I'm thinking about that: no, I really don't believe that. He was still very upset about it when we first started talking, it was only a few weeks since it had happened; and we both had considerable discussion as to whether it was wise for either of us to be thinking of looking for someone else so soon after finishing previous relationships - but we just got on well. So we did.

I don't think he's being abusive. And I consider that certainly in an online situation, if he were, it would be easy to walk away from it. But yes, I think you're right that he lacks confidence - don't we all? - and that is one of the reasons why I should like to be able to help him know that he can - command; he doesn't need to threaten. True, he might need to repeat himself a few times...

Well, that's helped me work a few things through in my head! It's even allowed me to find a way to broach it, I think, that will allow me to bolster rather than damage his poor fragile baby male ego. :D (There, I've got my sense of humour back. Phew!)

Thanks again

[Clevernick]

I think he may be pushing too hard and too fast for you on the exhibitionism thing. And he does sound a bit hard to communicate with.

But I don't agree that in an online relationship, threatening to leave and ignore you for a while is emotional blackmail. It's a harsh punishment option but one, I think, that should be on the table for online dom who is not getting cooperation. All other punishments he can do over the internet require your cooperation, and are subject to manipulation on your part too.

It's not only online Doms who practise emotional blackmail, either. I was recently manipulated to distraction by an online "sub" who liked to tease, offer and deny, break commitments, refuse tasks outright, wheedle, misinterpret, and call names. The more of this she did, the more I realized I was being manipulated, and she was unhappy unless she was in total control herself. Scary.

Actually just going away is the only part of the D/s online game that is truly an action on his part. Everything else is just talk. It's not emotional blackmail in my view -- but it doesn't make communication any easier either. I hope he saves it for when it's truly required.

I'd be more concerned with your trust and communication issues, and your desire to be pushed more slowly, and less with that method of exerting control.

[moptop]

Clevernick, I wrote you a really nice long response, and lost my connection as I was posting it, rats rats rats

Suffice to say: thank you for taking the time to answer, and I think your point about cutting out being the only action a dom can truly control on line is extremely valid and interesting.

I do think he needs to consider when it should be used, and we must talk that through. You are right that communication - and the chance to communicate - is the prime necessity.

Just on your general comments - I appreciate that some subs can be pretty unsub, but I am extremely obedient and docile (no, Wolfy, I really am!!). So if I don't do something at once then perhaps some more gentle persuasion first would be reasonable... especially since he knows that cutting off the conversation is, to me, the worst punishment I could get (on line). I will talk to him about that, too.

Generally - guys, what can I say - as helpful and thoughtful a response as I could have hoped for, and has given me food for thought.

[Eponine]

MopTop:

i can understand your quandary... i have had similar questions in the past... i think .. if it were me, i would accept his choice of ..motivation.. as long as i could discuss my feelings with him. In my last relationship, there were no safewords, there were close to no limits, however, there was _nothing_ I could not discuss or ask Master about. He would always welcome my questions, concerns, and input as well as give feedback.

I think if your master brushes you off when you wish to discuss something important, I would not find that appropriate.

...just my opinion...

[Clevernick]

And I agree totally with Eponine on that point, and am sorry I didn't bring it up now too.

Nice one, Mari.

[Rhabbi]

This is pretty well covered, but thought I would through in my opinion anyway.

Your Dom is right to help you push your limits, but the way he is doing it reflects a certain lack of maturity. He should talk to you about them and help you get past them, not put you in an either/or situation. In other words, I think he is is using his insecurity to control you. He is not sure about what he should do, and so he does the only thing he thinks will work. Plus, he does not trust you. this is a bad sign.

You need to telk to him and let him know that this is not acceptable behaviour on his part. Respect has to be mutual, or it does not exist.

[moptop]

Thank you all. I think I am just about ready to broach this with him now. I am grateful to have received some varied points of view, but a couple of common themes run through them.

I will try to help us build our trust and an open communication, just as I will continue to try to do what he wants of me. If I can show myself trusting, trustworthy and open, then his own uncertainty and lack of confidence should start to diminish, I think.

Once again, thank you all.

[diamondcontrol]

One more possible point for you, perhaps you could discuss with him that since your time together is so limited, terminating a conversation, should not be used as a punishment. He may be more amenable to listening if you call it a punishment rather than blackmail. When he is trying to push your limits he can use some other more acceptable "punishment" to create a dilemma for you. Open the shutters or forgo any orgasms that day. He would probably achieve the same result without halting the development of your relationship - for your relationship cannot grow if you don't have contact with each other.

[TomOfSweden]

I will say that some of your advice is not quite up the right street because I havn't explained myself properly - it is not a 3 year old relationship, it is only 3months and a bit since we started talking. So we are only just starting to learn eachother. The 3 years bit is how long he has been a dom for.


Ok, goodie. That means that things aren't half as bad as they could be. Three months for an on-line relationship where you don't seem to talk so often isn't a lot of time to get to know each other.



I don't think exhibitionism is an absolute hard limit for me - not a neverneverneverno (like, say, scats). I just find it really difficult. I've been thinking about it too, and I think one of the things that annoyed me is actually that he could have got me to do it without resorting to blackmail - I do think of it as a last resort - and then I think I'd actually have enjoyed it. More Masterful persuasion and use of thrall... I did tell him early on that, in the online context, the worst punishment I can think of is for him to cut the conversation. I guess I don't think having a bit of trouble pushing myself deserves the worst.


So your problem isn't with the exhibitionism. It seems to me that you're a bit unclear on where your limits are. That is really annoying for a Master. Anyhoo, since I haven't read more than a tiny fraction of your correspondance and have no idea what you've said of this earlier on the subject, I'll leave it at that.

Here's a suggestion. Maybe less than honorouble, but I think it'll work. Why don't you simply tell him that using blackmail is a major turn-off for you. Why not tell him straight up that what you like is a man that's dominant, assertive but sensitive to your needs. And using blackmail as a leverage you don't think is manly. Even if he doesn't get what you mean, it'll make him listen. No man wants to be less than manly. Yes, that is also blackmail. Blackmail can be good. You have to train your Master just as much as he trains you. That's an intrinsic part of any relationship.



We aren't communicating enough at the moment, you are absolutely right. I'm communicating like anything in writing - I write him an incredibly detailed journal every day, just because I like doing it, and I talk to him about everything. I'm not getting feedback from him though - I guess I'm not talking to him about that!! But we do have the problem that he has very little time available at the moment. For example, I am unlikely to get to talk to him until next Monday now. I am hoping that as of next week things will start easing up for him, though, and we will get some more time together so we can really talk. It seems so important to me that we start down the right path.


Now here I can see another potential problem. You like writing incredibly detailed journals. Does he actually like that? Has he told you he apreciates it? Remember that he has to read them. If they're for most part rambly, unintresting to read and not to the point, (as most journals tend to be) it may be just a bit too much for him and he has a hard time telling you, (because he off-course wants to make you happy). He does after all have little time to spare.

You can't force a man to open up and become better at communicating. That comes with age and maturity. If he doesn't give you enough feedback and doesn't communicate enough for your tastes, your only option is to move on. Men are not as intelligent as women when it comes to communicating feelings and needs. Women often forget this very basic fact of life. Demanding that he communicate more will probably only make him frustrated and might start making him resent you. It's better to pull stuff out of him. Ask follow up questions on things he asks or says to see if there's any deep thought behind it. My experience is that men often have "smart" instincts and may do things that are a lot more clever and deep than they themselves understand, and they couldn't talk about why they did it even if they want to.



Well, that's helped me work a few things through in my head! It's even allowed me to find a way to broach it, I think, that will allow me to bolster rather than damage his poor fragile baby male ego. :D (There, I've got my sense of humour back. Phew!)

Thanks again

No problem.

[Sir_Russell]

moptop

Sorry for the delay but without internet access it is tough to respond like I am used too.

First of you both need to take my check list for the life. You will find it in the bdsm knowledge threads. There is one there for the sub and one for the Dom. If you want this to last either online or flesh to flesh you have to know each others hard limits. Yes Doms have hard limits too.

This list will let you discuss with him the areas that could be trouble. Once a hard limit is set by my sub I will push it a little to see if it is a real limit or just one that scares my slave. Many of morgan's hard limits are gone since they were actually things that she wanted but felt that they were either beyond her or that no right thinking lady would ever do them. Now she begs for them!

He is the one using blackmail in your relationship since the threat of his leaving you is just that. I will tell my slave/subs that my releasing her is the ultimate punishment, I do not threaten her with it after explaining that her being without me is the worst thing I can do to her. No threat just the facts, and when she balks at a command she will be punished unless I am pushing her hard limit.

My job as her Dom\Master is to educate, train, help, comfort, lead and love my slave, I do all of these thing is very quiet subtle ways. Morgan could not stand either chains or metal handcuffs when we started, I love both of these, so one night when she was spread eagled on the bed and deep in sub space I told her I was laying chains on her. I did this without them being attached to anything, now she carries one of my chain collars in her purse so that when she is worried and out of sub space she go to the stall in a lady's room to put it on her, reminding herself that shows that she is my slave. This puts her back into a mild subspace and she continues with her day. The cuffs I put in her lap with 2 keys as I was heading home one day and told her to play with them. She loves them now too, but in both cases she had time to get to know them and there wonderful power in a none threatening manner.

Russell

[moptop]

Sir_Russell, thank you very much for answering me, especially when it is a problem for you!

I think we have got this sorted now - I was very frank and honest with about my feelings and how much it hurt and scared me - he understands, he is listening. I feel a lot more at ease than I did.

I greatly value your expertise and experience, I appreciate what you have told me here and will also share that with him.

[moptop]

Sorry - rushing, didn't see diamondcontrol and Tom had also answered - Tom, thank you, thank you so much for the time you've taken over this!

I think the best thing I can do is show you all the email I wrote him (took me 2 days to write it...)


Open letter to my Master


Monsieur, I try not to weigh you down with words, but I don't manage it. Firstly please know that, in what I say, the last thing I wish to do is upset or anger you in any way. If I do so, it is because I am clumsy, it is not purposeful

We need to communicate more, about what we expect from one another, about what is going well or badly. No, not at this instant: I am intelligent enough, I believe, to know that you are presently too busy. I can wait. But it is important for us to ensure, in the future, that we make room for that, I believe. I don't expect you always to have the answers, just as I do not always know how to answer you or how to react... it is a journey for you too, isn't it?

I would nevertheless like to talk to you of when you said you were going to cut out, the other night. It hurt me. Cutting out is the worst of punishments for me, at least in the context of the on-line relationship. I don't believe I deserved that.

You know, you have enough of a hold over me that you could have got me to do that without using this ultimatum. You can command me and lead me - even if, sometimes, you have to repeat yourself or be stern. I don't refuse you on purpose - I don't refuse you in order to force you to force me, if you see what I mean. I try to obey. But sometimes it doesn't happen all by itself. There is part of me that wants to obey; but there are other parts that fight against it. Sometimes, the battle takes time. You are my reinforcement in the battle.

I am willing, I hope you know that I am willing. I want you to have faith in me. I want to work with you to learn myself and to push my limits. I want you to trust me, knowing that I am working with you, for you. I want to understand what to do so that you will trust me. I try, really I do, but sometimes I will not be able to do what you want at once. I try.

But - perhaps you know all these things and, simply, you take pleasure in it: perhaps you wish to feel the power of pushing, of forcing me, against my will. Cutting out is entirely under your control, and out of mine, and it's the only thing that is truly when we're online, since you're not there to be certain of me.

Do you understand the power of that action? Taking yourself away from me is the worst of things. I respectfully ask you to keep it for when I have truly deserved it, for flagrant opposition or insubordination, for example. I also hope never to deserve it. I have need of your care.

In the wish that I may one day be worthy of the name you have given me.

(The name he has given me is Altea - along the lines of 'the highest', a sense of loftiness, worthiness, dignity, grace. Hell of a name to live up to. )

Meanwhile, I have taken some other actions, which I think fall firmly into the sub training the Master category... I won't go into that, it is another matter, but we have taken some good steps forward.

Tom, by the way - he LOVES my journals, although they can be a trifle rambly, they're usually hot as hell. Ok, yes, they do tend to include poetry as well. But he likes that too. He was the one started the poetry quoting, so I blame him for that, lol.

Once again, thank you all

PS - a big thank you to Clevernick, from whom I cleverly nicked the bit about cutting out being the only thing under his control! Note, I didn't tell him it was someone else's idea... sorry, no citation in this world!

[Eponine]

Wow, great letter, Moptop. i almost want to steal parts of it for when i need to talk to my master about things i am having difficulty with.

i am glad to read that you are more at ease with the relationship- that is so critical.

good luck, dear. please keep us updated!

[Clevernick]

I think that's very clear indeed, and can only get a good dialogue going with the Monsieur.




PS - a big thank you to Clevernick, from whom I cleverly nicked the bit about cutting out being the only thing under his control! Note, I didn't tell him it was someone else's idea... sorry, no citation in this world!

Flattery will get you everywhere!

By the way, Moptop, I can see you were in a very different mental space when you wrote your letter. It's almost like a different person wrote the paragraphs after it. Your letter was written with, may I say, a formal French accent to the writing, which comes through even in English. (Or did you translate?)

And then your perfectly colloquial English afterward when talking to us makes a fun and cute contrast.

The difference tells me of the special private space you go to when you think of your Monsieur. If he saw both bits of writing I know he would understand it too.

Wishing you all the best!

[moptop]

Your letter was written with, may I say, a formal French accent to the writing, which comes through even in English. (Or did you translate?)

And then your perfectly colloquial English afterward when talking to us makes a fun and cute contrast.

The difference tells me of the special private space you go to when you think of your Monsieur. If he saw both bits of writing I know he would understand it too.



Oh, I do translate. But it is true - there is a sort of formalised language that I used, and that we share. French lends itself to various formalities that English doesn't - and, of course, vice-versa. The principle one is that we vous-voie eachother most of the time. He has a slightly old-style formal language he uses with this, to which I find I respond in kind.

He only tu-tois me when he is particularly moved - generally when he's about to let me cum, lol.

He would recognise the difference, and I'm glad you mentioned it, because it hadn't really occured to me. But the journals and mails that I write to him are not in the formal, stylised manner that this was. So it will have had its effect.

Thank you all, once again

[Rhabbi]

Good way to approach the problem moptop. I like the way you accomplish letting him know that you have limits and needs also.