Celebrity names?

[bdsmbill]

A story was recently posted named "Switch." I found it to be a well written and imaginative tale, and I gave it a 10 in my review. I also complained a bit, because the author features several well-known celebrities as characters in the story.

I find this objectionable. I think it is an invasion of the named person's rights when someone uses the name they worked so hard to make famous. It is a sort of identity theft.

Where do others stand on this issue? Do you agree that it's wrong to hijack somebody's name? If not, why not? If you do think it's wrong, do you think I should have lowered my rating because of it? I rated it on its writing, and didn't lower it because of the name dropping.

I did that because I always do that. Some other things are a bit of a turn-off for me. I'm not big on snuff, or incest, or watersports either, but I don't think I should low-rate a story just because it features activities that don't happen to fit my personal kinks.

So, am I right, wrong, or boring you? I'd rather be wrong than boring.

Bill

[GaryWilcox]

I prefer no names...

"Isn't that--"
"Shhh!"

[MrJerseyGuy]

I guess it seems like a non issue to me personally. When things are printed about celebrities in the media that are false, I can see where they would have a reason to be upset about it and I would frown on that. On the other hand...when something is an obvious work of fiction, I don't see the harm. These people become very wealthy by placing themselves in the lime light. The ones who complain about photographers and constant attention spent most of their lives trying to get there and are very lucky to be one of the few who did.

If it doesn't cause that individual any financial, person or professional harm...who cares if somebody uses their name in a story.

I'm sure that for every one person like you who may find it offensive there is someone else who appreciates having their fantasies brought to life in a well written story.

I don't go that way myself. I prefer to write using the names of women I know personally and expanding on my knowledge of their own activities, desires and fantasies. As has been my resounding theme in my posts..."to each his own".

[Aurelius]

I don't like it. I don't think it's nice to use somebody's name, famous or otherwise.

What if somebody Googled their own name, or a friend's, and they found it appeared in a sex story? Perhaps they'll be flattered but I doubt it. The author may even attract abusive email.

FWIW I make a habit of Googling my characters' names before using them in stories. (Full names obviously.) I never use a name if something already shows for it on the internet. It's a bit fun too, using a 'fresh' name.

[Curtis]

The only thing boring about this topic is that this is the second thread on it.

While there are certainly a large number of 'celebrities' who do live for the spotlight, there are some singers (Suzanne Vega and Maria Muldaur come easily to mind) and a very large number of actors who hate being public figures. What publicity they do is to promote their work, not themselves. I hate Bush, but I wouldn't write a story with him as either a victim or a villain because running for public office isn't a declaration that you you want to be the subject of either porn stories or jokes on Letterman.

As stated in the other thread, my position is that describing a celebrity is fair, but you should change the names. That way clueless people like me won't know who you're writing about and the cognoscenti will get that smug little thrill from knowing something that I don't.

To answer your question, bill, I think you did the right thing. On some sites there's a 'celeb' story code. You might want to consider suggesting the same thing in the Comments And Suggestions section of the Forum.

[Neopadinski]

I don't use celebrity names (though Britney Spears has graced my imagination on more than one occasion). As for actual names, I base my characters on people I do actually know, and the descriptions are the same-but I only use the first name. As for where it stands-well, I wouldn't worry about the NAMES of people in stories. I think people like Britney Spears would be more offended by the porno sites she finds herself on.

[boccaccio2000g]

Originally posted by Aurelius
I don't like it. I don't think it's nice to use somebody's name, famous or otherwise.

What if somebody Googled their own name, or a friend's, and they found it appeared in a sex story? Perhaps they'll be flattered but I doubt it. The author may even attract abusive email.

FWIW I make a habit of Googling my characters' names before using them in stories. (Full names obviously.) I never use a name if something already shows for it on the internet. It's a bit fun too, using a 'fresh' name.

I think it's in very poor taste to put a real living person into a story (I have no particular objection to using Messalina or Caligula or Cleopatra or Henry VIII, though, as long as the story is reasonably believable).

As to the, "Well, they're celebrities, they chose to be in the limelight," argument, I think of a person like Jessica Lynch, who is very much a celebrity. And someone, somewhere, has probably written a story about her captivity -- and I think that is an invasion of her privacy. But even if the story is about a very un-private person like Pamela Anderson, I think it's in poor taste.

I don't run a google check on my characters names, but since they are set in historical times, I don't think that any real life "Jack Slocums" or "Erika Weiss's" are likely to object.


Boccaccio

[Aurelius]

Oh, this is good! :)

I just Googled Erika Weiss and your story shows on the first 10 links (out of 201) aqlongside real Erika Weiss's!

Ditto Jack Slocum, (93 links) , talking of links, he appears to be a Professional Golfer!

[reverie35]

Celebrity Privacy

Many of these Celebrities go out of there way to be sure they enter into the fantasies of their fans. Now you are concerned for their privacy because I have written about the fantasies of one such fan. I think these people have damaged their privacy way beyond my abilities to effect them with a short story. It is my understanding that the courts have ruled about the privacy rights of public figures here in the US.

I am more concerned about using several other names in the story.

I do have a version of the story with the names changed and may submit it as a replacement.

[boccaccio2000g]

Originally posted by reverie35
Celebrity Privacy

I think these people have damaged their privacy way beyond my abilities to effect them with a short story. It is my understanding that the courts have ruled about the privacy rights of public figures here in the US.

.

I don't think it's for us to determine how and why celebs may have damaged their privacy.

I'm not arguing that it's not legal -- Saturday Night Live lampoons celebrities every week, to name just one example. That kind of lampooning goes with the territority. I don't have a problem if your story is satirical and doesn't put someone in an unfair light. And I wouldn't urge that your story be suppressed -- but I would urge you to think about whether you'd like to come across one of your loves ones in such a story if they were ever to achieve fame.

It's not illegal. It's just tacky. In my opinion.

Boccaccio

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by reverie35
Celebrity Privacy

Many of these Celebrities go out of there way to be sure they enter into the fantasies of their fans. Now you are concerned for their privacy because I have written about the fantasies of one such fan. I think these people have damaged their privacy way beyond my abilities to effect them with a short story. It is my understanding that the courts have ruled about the privacy rights of public figures here in the US.

Apparently there are two questions. Is it legal to do this, and is it ethical to do this?

I don't think it's ethical in any way. I don't think their loss of privacy is absolute. For example, there have been several cases of ex-boyfriends posting photos and tapes that the celebrities made thinking they would remain private. That is wrong --sleazy and immoral.

With regard to the legality issue, it is true that the courts have ruled that being a celebrity means you lose some privacy rights, but the loss is not absolute. Yes, it is OK to photograph a celebrity you see on the street, but not OK to try and photograph them in their bathroom. In this case, I think you have crossed the line. This is not a joke on Saturday Night Live or the Leno show. You have used their real-life personas in a work of fiction without their consent, and then you have published it. Considering the sexual nature of the fiction, I believe you could expect to lose if any of these people elected to sue you. Other people have been successfully sued for putting a celebrity face on a nude photo and posting it as an actual image.

You might want to keep in mind that unless you are rich, you couldn't afford to win even if the law was on your side. It may be wrong, but the fact is that a rich person with a lawyer can make your life hell, and unless you have enough money to get your own legal team, you could be in a lot of hurt.

The story would be just as good if the names were not those of real people. The name dropping is, in this case, gratutious.

Bill

[reverie35]

I will post the story with the names changed.

Where was the outcry for "Beyonce Becomes a Pony' which has been on the site for several months?

[Jones, Nikka]

I do not think it is wrong, illegal or tacky to use celebrity names. I am sure even they would agree that this is just fantasy, as Reverie35 points out.
Just like celebrities learn to accept that some people may laugh at them or criticize them, it is possible for some fans to fantasize about them. It is part of being a public figure.

[Alex Bragi]

I have seen a couple of threads on a similar topic to this at another site over the past years.

One dealt with a story about the Olsen twins, the day after their eighteen birthday. (birthdays?) At the time they would have been about thirteen or fourteen. The other was regarding the dozens of erotic Harry Potter stories that many people, at the time of the first movie’s release, seemed obsessed with. Again the authors projected the cute kids into the future to avoid the issue of underage sex.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with fan/fic unless it involves celebrities who are underage at the time the story is written.

[Anita Parker]

I stand with reverie35 on this (thank you for citing my story). Perhaps more so, fuck changing the names in your story, keep them if you want. In writing a story about a Beyonce it is FICTION and does not intrude on her privacy.

If these people don't want people to fantasise about them, that's hard luck and I can't feel sorry for them. I can't stop people fantasising about me any more than they can stop me about them.

If someone wants to share their fantasies on a site like this then that's great in my book and I'll enjoy them. If someone wrote a BDSM story about me I'd be flattered, especially if it was any good. As long as they didn't try and make money off it, pass it off as being authorized by me when it wasn't or claim it was factual. I think the stance against this is too abstract to be relevant.

Anyway, that said, I love the web-site and the forums make very stimulating reading.

[Curtis]

On the other hand, a friend of mine offered to write a story with me as a principal character, which I authorized and cooperated with, but I was driven so frantic by the 'historical inaccuracies' that she kindly turned the project over.

To paraphrase Kallie Thomas from a different thread, unless your real name is Anita Parker, there's no chance of anyone writing a story about you, so you're safe behind your curtain.

I've read a beautiful and funny story about Sandra Bullock and Julia Roberts that had a happy ending and it's possible neither of them would've been offended by it, but I've also read snuff stories about them that would've sent them straight up the wall. The Avril Levigne story on this site was good S&M, but it would've been just as good if the author had made up names for his two victims.

And it isn't like Avril or Beyonce are houshold names. I get no image when I read those names and have no idea what they look like, so really, what's the point of it? You'd still have to describe them to me and tell me what they do, so why not make them up instead?

When I said in an earlier post that this was the second thread on the topic, I think the other thread was started by reverie35 to canvas opinions before he posted "Switch". He offered suggestions on ways he could post the story so the readers could fill in the blanks with names of their choice, but got shot down. I really think he did 'due diligence' on this subject beforehand and, while I disagree with the conclusion he reached, he thought it all through very carefully and weighed both sides. Careful, considerate thought is about all we can ask of any writer. If I were him, I wouldn't be so quick to change things, because now we're crossing over into the topic of artistic integrity. Think twice, publish once. You've done that, reverie. Stick to your guns.

[bdsmbill]

If these people don't want people to fantasise about them, that's hard luck and I can't feel sorry for them. I can't stop people fantasising about me any more than they can stop me about them.

Certainly you have a point. However, I still think there is a big difference between fantasizing about someone and using their name in a published story.

Bill

[reverie35]

I made the changes. The big one was the location as there is some doubt as to the public nature of the old name.

If a switch could review and send me comments on just the chaper called Art I would be greatful. It is a very emotional piece of writing for me.

[Midnite]

In the story I am currently working on, which happens to be my first one, my main characters will bear a striking resemblance to different female celebrities, the name of the celebrity will only be mentioned one time and she actually won't be in the story. Let me give you an example, the first victim in my story are actually triplets, and instead of going into and alot of detail to describe them I use the statement, they bear a striking resemblance to Nikki Cox, so I guess my question is do most of you think that that is OK?

And by the way look for the long story of Jacqui's torment a science-fiction novel for the pervert
Thanks

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by midnite
Let me give you an example, the first victim in my story are actually triplets, and instead of going into and alot of detail to describe them I use the statement, they bear a striking resemblance to Nikki Cox, so I guess my question is do most of you think that that is OK?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I see nothing wrong with that. The discussion here began with my concerns about stories that used celebrities as actual characters in the story. It sounds like you are just using a celebrity's name as an aid to describing a completely different character.

Bill

[Spitman]

I have thought about this for a while. There is an author who wrote dozens of stories featuring celebrities being tortured and snuffed. A lot of his writing was quite imaginative, but the use of celebrity names did make me uneasy, and so did his use of doctored photographs of those same celebrities to illustrate his stories.

Just because a celebrity has a famous name does not give anybody the right to associate it with their personal fantasies in a published story. Of course people have dreams, and dreams will involve celebrities as long as they personify some significant quality such as skill or beauty, in our minds. No celebrity can object to that.

What authors need to do is identify the qualities that they see in the celebrity, and use them in the story, rather than naming the celebrity. By doing this, readers can use their own imagination to conjure up a picture that goes with the story, and different readers may identify it with quite different images.

I regard the use of a specific celebrity name as intrusive - they have families too, don't they! But most of all it is lazy.

By saying, 'They bear a striking resemblance to Nikki Cox', is midnite saying that he is unable to describe Nikki Cox? Actually we don't want a photograph. We don't want Nikki Cox. We want those things that midnite sees in Nikki Cox that are relevant to the story line.

[Curtis]

Okay, as one of the original posters to this thread and its predecessor, I have to side with bdsmbill. I'm against using celebrities as characters under their own name, but have no objection on moral grounds to either using a celebrity and changing their name (by which I mean changing it to something unassociated with the real person, not just using the name of a character that an actor played or reversing their first and last names), or to using a celebrity as a physical template and admitting that you've done so.

On the other hand, the risk of describing a character as looking like Nikki Cox, Avril Levigne or Beyonce is that I, for one, have no idea what any of those people look like, so you've told me nothing. I think you have to actually describe them, in addition to using the 'celebrity equivalence'. That way, people who DO know what Nikki Cox looks like can have an exact picture in their minds, while shlubs like me can make make do with "long, black hair and high, small breasts' and our imagination.

[Midnite]

What authors need to do is identify the qualities that they see in the celebrity, and use them in the story, rather than naming the celebrity. By doing this, readers can use their own imagination to conjure up a picture that goes with the story, and different readers may identify it with quite different images.

I regard the use of a specific celebrity name as intrusive - they have families too, don't they! But most of all it is lazy.

By saying, 'They bear a striking resemblance to Nikki Cox', is midnite saying that he is unable to describe Nikki Cox? Actually we don't want a photograph. We don't want Nikki Cox. We want those things that midnite sees in Nikki Cox that are relevant to the story line. [/B][/QUOTE]

No I'm not afraid that I can't describe Nikki Cox, I'm afraid can't describe how beautiful she is adequately, OK just for a test let me try describing myself. I am 48 years old although I am told I look younger than my age, I am 6 feet tall and weighs 250 pounds and yes I do have a belly, I have medium long light red almost blond hair, I have a full dark red beard interspersed with gray hair, I have steel blue eyes I also have the typical caterpillar eyebrow you know the one that runs over my eyes and my nose and trying not to sound effeminate, I have full thick lips, of course I would not describe my self as handsome instead I think of myself as having of the rugged look. OK I'm done with my description, you now have the basic idea of what I look like right ? but if you pass me on the street you would never realize it was me. Now how about if I told you that several people had told me that I look like a younger version of Charlie Daniels the country-western blues singer. Now since you have a description of me and a picture in your mind of Charlie Daniels, if you pass me walking down the street you just might think to your self, damn that person looks like a young Charlie Daniels,wait a minute that might be Midnite

Do you see what I mean? Besides it would be a complement to me if every time somebody who had read my story saw Nikki Cox or one of the other celebrity look-alikes who appear in my story and it caused them to just briefly think of my story, then that would be great. I hope this is not drifted too far off the topic of what this thread originally started with.

Regards Midnite

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by Spitman

What authors need to do is identify the qualities that they see in the celebrity, and use them in the story, rather than naming the celebrity. By doing this, readers can use their own imagination to conjure up a picture that goes with the story, and different readers may identify it with quite different images.

I think this is an interesting point. The author should remember that the reader also has an imagination, and that one person's dream girl is another person's hag. For example, Playboy did a survey a few years ago and found that men divide into three pretty even sized groups with regard for their breast-size preference. One third of men like big breasts, one third like small breasts, and one third have no preference.

What this means to me, as an author, is that if I describe a woman as having 36D tits, I have turned off 1/3 of my readers, and if I mention she has a pair of 34A's, I turn off a different third.

To avoid this, lately I have been being non-specific. "She had the face of a super-model and a body built for sin." "The moment I saw her, I wanted her. My dick was like a divining rod, pointing straight at her. She didn't just have curves, she defined curves."

I also have to agree with another of Spitman's points. I also have absolutely no idea what Nikki Cox looks like. Honestly, I never heard of her until this thread. Telling me someone looks like her conjures no images at all.

Bill

[drake7]

Legally there is nothing wrong with using a celebrities name in a story which you are distrubuting freely. It moves into more of a "grey area" if there is possible slander or defamation of character taking place.

However, aside from the legal aspect, using a certain celebrity in a story can make the story more interesting if it is a celebrity whom you like, or dislike. In addition, while you may have to spend a lot of time describing a personality "like" Madonna for instance, it is a lot easier just to use Madonna in the story whom most readers will already be familiar with.

Personally the idea of a celebrity being a character in a story is interesting, but wouldn't be something I would actively look for. Also, when using a well known character you can benefit from people knowing that character already but you can also potentially lose out if you portray that character in ways that readers feel is not in step with the true personality.

Drake.

[Harold]

I guess I just don't get it. Privacy and morality issues aside, why would anyone want to write a celebrity based story and why would anyone want to read one? This sort of thing seems nearly as parasitic as fanfic. As mentioned in the other thread on this topic, I don't have all that much respect for authors who don't bother to create their own characters.

[Curtis]

I would guess that people read them for the same reason they read National Enquirer or Star, or watch E!, Entertainment Tonight or other shows of that ilk -- pure, morbid curiosity. Why were people fascinated by the two O.J.Simpson trials, and why did Janet Jackson's breast set a record for number of Internet searches? There's just something about celebrities that makes them inherently interesting to most people.

My sister and I wrote some Star Trek fan fiction, and there's a lot of creativity involved. She invented a world, three races and a social history while I contributed a recent history, timeline, integration with the previously established 'official' history (which now appears to be subject to change without notice) and four major characters. The 'name' characters were only background figures and cameos for us, and we didn't use the Enterprise, though we did make much use of Lt. Saavik and Star Fleet Academy. I expect that anyone who tried to write a story set in Middle Earth would also find that only the framework was useful and most of the heavy lifting was still to be done.

Some people find some aspects of writing easier than others. Names (of characters, countries, whatever) and titles (of books or chapters) come very hard for me, and plots are difficult, too. What's easy is creating characters and their backstory and developing the history/culture of a world. Once I have that, though, there's no story! Where's the conflict? How does the conflict resolve without the adventure being a walkover for the heroes? I'm being browbeaten to complete a story for posting in the Library, and I'm tempted to call it "Five Characters In Search Of A Story" for just those reasons.

Naturally, therefore, I don't think that writing an UNPAID story using previously created characters or real people is parasitic, nor does it necessarily demonstrate a lack of creativity (which I note that you never claimed). Of course, such stories MAY be uncreative, just as any other story might be derivative (lex ludite's pet peeve), or simply boring or badly written. Really, is someone who steals characters any less virtuous than someone who steals/recycles plots? Not everyone can be Isaac Asimov.

Last point, this post: If you have little respect for authors who don't bother to create their own characters, what about authors who don't bother to create their own worlds? Setting stories on Earth seems like a horrible cheat to me, but the few who do create 'alternate universes' usually do a horrible job at it and create something illogical or unbelievable. And what about the ones who don't create their own languages? (I've done it, and it's a bitch!) And what about the ones who don't create their own rules for how gravity and baryon numbers operate? I mean, not inventing alternatives to the nuclear strong and weak forces is just unforgivable. To co-opt something so fundamental must be the height of laziness!

Tch, tch. There're parasites everywhere these days.

[GaryWilcox]

I've been meaning to say something on this thread for awhile.

I think sometimes the author likes the subject matter so much they want to use a celebrity, because they fantasize about this celebrity themselves. I remember a story called The Sheik's Revenge, where a Sheik lures three coeds who have offended him onto his large plane, so he can torture them.

A good example of a story that wound up tittilating me in the beginning and later offending me was "Raping Amanda Bynes and Avril Lavigne" (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/story.php?storyid=1306), by Dave Haugen. I guess my value system says its okay to tell a fantasy about having two women nonconsensually under your control and play sadistic games with them, but not so good to talk about passing Mitchell, Barzee and Elizabeth Smart on the street.

Mostly, I think it's okay, except when it's used as a writing device to save on a description.


Let me give you an example, the first victim in my story are actually triplets, and instead of going into and alot of detail to describe them I use the statement, they bear a striking resemblance to Nikki Cox, so I guess my question is do most of you think that that is OK? I think it's more important to find out what the author likes about Nikki Cox that would make her a good submissive. The rest is detail confusing real life with fantasy.

Okay, let's try some examples, using story reviews grades. Here's 5 or 6 different versions of the Nikki Cox story, going from what I think is awful to what I think is awesome. Notice that the higher the marks go, the more descriptive the detail is, and the less we hear about the triplets looking like Nikki Cox.

1. Very poor content, with writing skills bordering on illiteracy.
Bitches loked just like that Nicky Cox girl so i said we should rape and fuck her.

2. Poor. Doesn't work very well. Poorly written.
The triplets looks like Nikki Cox girl, from Las Vegas, and she was hot. Me: We ought to fuck em.

3. Mediocre wiuth barely acceptable grammar.
We noticed three triplets out at the pool. Mark looked at them and said, "Hey they look like that Nikki Cox girl!" He was right, they did. Long Red hair, 33DD breasts, and pretty brown eyes. I thought, fuck, and said, "Okay, let's do 'em.".

4. OK, but lacks any real quality.
Mark noticed them first-- three triplets chilling out by the pool. Mark nudged me and said, "Hey they look like that Nikki Cox girl!"
He was right... Each one had long, bright red hair, 33DD breasts, and pretty brown eyes, perfectly fuckable teenagers. I thought, fuck, and said, "Okay, let's do 'em.".

5. OK, but has some promise, the author could improve it.
It was Mark who noticed them first, and he nudged me sharply. I looked around, studied where his eyes were pointed, and there they were-- three triplets chilling out by the pool. "Fuck, man, triplets!" He sipped his Bacardi and Coke, still staring. "Do they remind you of anyone? Like, on TV?"
Something familiar chimed in my head, and I remembered a show that was on years ago called "Unhappily Ever After". There was this sweet little redhead girl... what was her name? Anyway, he was right... Each one of the triplets had long, bright red hair, breasts that were completely unnatural for their small, girlish frames, and pretty brown eyes.
I thought, fuck, and said, "Okay, let's do 'em."
6. Somewhat enjoyable. Acceptable writing skills.
It was Mark who noticed them first, but we were both staring at the pool deck below us, where three young women were stretched out on deck chairs, sunning themselves lazily in the August heat.
He nudged me sharply. I looked around, studied where his eyes were pointed, and there they were-- three triplets chilling out by the pool. "Fuck, man, triplets!" He sipped his Bacardi and Coke, still staring. "Do they remind you of anyone? Like, on TV?"
Something familiar chimed in my head, and I remembered a show that was on years ago called "Unhappily Ever After". There was this sweet little redhead girl... what was her name? Anyway, he was right... Each one of the triplets had long, bright red hair, breasts that were completely unnatural for their small, girlish frames, and pretty brown eyes.
I looked at Mark, nodding, "This is way too good an opportunity to pass up, man."

7. Good. Was worth reading.
It was Mark who noticed them first, but we were both staring at the pool deck. Below us, three young women were stretched out on deck chairs, sunning themselves lazily in the August heat.
He nudged me sharply. I glanced at him and back at the girls, three triplets chilling out by the pool. "Fuck, man, triplets!" He sipped his Bacardi and Coke, still staring. "Do they remind you of anyone? Like, on TV?"
Something familiar chimed in my head. I watched one of the girls talking to the ship's purser, her huge, cartoonish grin and small, beautiful teeth... she laughed at something he said and touched her collarbone. As the purser left, she turned to talk to her sisters and nearly fell over her deck chair. Mark and I chuckled, watching her, laughing at her own blunder. She climbed back down and the closest sister put a dollup of lotion on her hands, so she could rub it in to her back. As the sisters started working lotion into each other's pink, pale skin, I remembered an actress that hd many similar wualities to these girls. But that girl had been rail thin, and these three, while very nice, hand none of her tone or muscle.
Each one of the triplets had long, bright red hair, that color all the college freshman girls seem to try out, but toned down a bit. They were all in two-piece bikinis, that barely contained breasts that were completely unnatural for their small, girlish frames, and pretty brown eyes.
Mark's voice was choked when he finally did manage to get something out again. "We could have those little teasing bitches... at the next city we dock at..." He tipped his drink again, eyes still focused on the girls as they rubbed in lotion.
I tore my eyes away from the girls, much too young for old, scary men like Mark and I, to stare my friend in the face. It was a risk. But the prize was just to great to think about the trouble we could get into. "This is way too good an opportunity to pass up, man."