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nk_lion

06-19-2007, 08:58 PM

(Disclaimer: I am not putting down US, just sharing personal views, IMHO, US is a great country just with a less then great president)

Random thought, read at your own risk of losing 3 minutes of your life.

So recently, I spent a couple of days south of 49 parallel and the most striking difference between Canada and US are the number of flags and bumper stickers I’ve seen. Never in my life have I seen so many flags of any one country, or as many ‘Support Our Troop’ signs and stickers as I have in US. I realize this varies state to state, last time I went to California; I never saw anything of that sort. But it made me wonder, does flag waving make you patriotic, or is it just following the crowd in proving that you care about your country?

While driving to my destination, I saw this huge pick-up with four American flags (which essentially reduces fuel efficiency by 10% a flag) cut of this other fellow with large God Bless America and Support Our Troops bumper stickers. The person cut of then proceeded to honk for a long time, tail-gating the pick-up that cut him of, and flashing his lights as if it were shooting bullets each time he did so. It seemed quite contrary to the message that they were trying to display of I’m American, and we shall unite against the bad guy terrorists. With that, and my impression of American politicians I’ve seen on TV, I started to assume that patriotism was perhaps a word just thrown around for some Orwellian reasons.

Later, after checking in to my hotel, before exploring the city for a while, I spent some time watching the news on NBC or CNN, where there was coverage about a small group of volunteers who took injured Iraq war veterans for canoeing (I think that’s a proper word). And the joy I saw on these soldiers faces was priceless. These were men who after losing a limb in a foreign country for a purpose they may or may not support came back to a country where its citizens truly cared about them. That in my opinion showed true patriotism of that group.

Not everyone has the skill set to do what those volunteers did and I don’t have anything against all the flag-waving and red-white-and-blue confetti or stickers, I’m pretty sure some ofthose people are helping out in some way or the other, I just figure that to be a true citizen, who cares sincerely about their country, it requires some effort. Effort to be a good driver and allow people way, effort to get of your seat if an elderly person is standing, effort to say please and thank you whenever and wherever possible, and more if possible. And of course, this applies not only in America, but all countries of the world.

jeanne

06-19-2007, 09:11 PM

nk, it wasn't a waste of 3 minutes. :)

I agree with what you said. It's easy and convenient to show "patriotism" using shortcuts, but much harder to show not only patriotism and love of country, but simply respect for the human race in general. Am I not patriotic when I refuse to trash the roadsides of my country? Am I not patriotic when I question the decisions of the few for the many? Am I not patriotic when I care for my neighbor, my friend, my family? And truly, am I not patriotic when I care for the stranger - the man who cuts me off in traffic, the woman in the express line at the store with 30 items, the harried mother trying to calm 3 crying children and pick up the dry cleaning at the same time...

To me, patriotism isn't just love of the concept of "my country". It is love of all the elements, including the people, that make up my country. The United States of America truly is unique in the world - both in wonderful ways and in terrible ways. I wouldn't live anywhere else.

nk_lion

06-19-2007, 09:14 PM

To me, patriotism isn't just love of the concept of "my country". It is love of all the elements, including the people, that make up my country.

I think thats the best definition I've heard yet.

Phantome

06-19-2007, 09:28 PM

I don't think you could have put it better. Unfortunately, "armchair patriotism" has become a rather vogue, keep-up-with-the-Jonses pastime for many people. I live in the good ol' bible belt, red state, heartland of America, surrounded by no fewer than 5 military bases, and I am saddened by a lot of this red-neckish flag-waving. It really has nothig at all to do with politics, IMO. Whether you support the war or not, whether you hate Bush or not, none of it matters. True patriotism is defined by the love for your country and it's people, and what you are willing to do, sacrifice and contribute to keep it healthy, happy, and safe.

If we were drawn into WWIII and the country had to go on rations similar to during WWII, how many of these flag-wavers do you think would willingly do it because they knew it would be the only way everyone would be able to eat, even though they had to give a little up to make it happen? How many people volunteer at shelters and tutor kids at school? How many rich people support charities and their fellow man, or put a buck in the bum's cup? How many big oil tycoons support alternative fuel research, knowing that while it may mean that their pocketbook is a little thinner, it is still the best thing we can do for the country?

In other words, I agree with you. A patriot isn't someone who waves around a flag and cuts people off in traffic. A patriot is someone who whole-heartedly cares about the well-being of their country and everyone and everything in it, and makes an effort to deserve the freedoms they have.

-Phan, stepping off of soapbox

TomOfSweden

06-20-2007, 06:13 AM

*soapbox mode, on*

A patriot is a person who subscribe to the theories of Fichte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichte) and Herder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Gottfried_Herder). In short it means that people from the same nation share a common soul. They invented the concept of nations all on their own not so very long ago at all.

It's worth pointing out that they based their theories on German fairy tales. It's just taken out of thin air. Anybody who in light of this knowledge calls themselves a patriot has no fucking clue. It's just nonsense.

Patriotism implies that you take sides for your own nation no matter what idiocies it's leader does, and no matter which nation your country invades. So most people aren't really patriots, it's just something they say because they haven't thought it through properly. Real patriotism is for low-brows who like to get riled up emotionally without taking any emotional risk. I think it's pathetic.

I'm fanatically anti-patriot and anti-nationalist. I love Sweden but I piss on it's flag. For me the Swedish flag does not represent Sweden. Pickled herring in jars, northern lights on the horizon, blond chicks in skimpy clothes and it's language does. The king can go and fuck himself.

Concepts like freedom and democracy has nothing to do at all with nationalism/patriotism or what Herder and Fichte meant. Patriotism has nothing to do with preferred political system.

edit: it's better to decide what you like. Pick out what you like about your country, and support only that. Reject the rest. This is the inherently anti-patriotic stance. The problem with "Swedishness" is that it is very vague. It doesn't mean anything. Or rather, it means different things to different people. The same thing about being an American. Nobody can really be a US patriot, because it doesn't mean anything. It's just empty words. Anybody with a quivering lip that tells you they love America and all it stands for, is just bullshiting of the same reason. "USA" doesn't stand for anything. A country is it's people, and every person has it's own opinions. That is what America is, and whatever it's people like to do, that's is what USA stands for. I'll bet you a million billion US dollars, that we can never get them to agree on much at all.

*soapbox mode, off*

ThisYouWillDo

06-20-2007, 10:46 AM

TomOfSweden

06-20-2007, 11:12 PM

I'm an Anglo-Scot ... I suppress the English side because I favour the notion of being a Scot. I love the saltire ( a political emblem) snd the red lion rampant (an emblem of the monarchy). But I do not love Scottish politics, nor am I a monarchist. So maybe I'm a simple romantic when it comes to patriotism. I also wear a kilt on occasion ... so maybe I'm a transvestite too.

I have never been called upon to risk life or limb for my country (either of them) and I'm not sure I would want to. Let's put that down as a "Don't Know."

I admit to being ignorant about patriotism, nationalism and all the rest ... and I haven't read Ficht and/or Herder ... I haven't even heard of them. So I cannot comment on their views, or Tom's rebuttal. But history seems to say that Patriots are those who fight for their (embryonic) nation's freedom - e.g., the rebel colonials in America, or the French Resistance in WW2. It also seems that Patriots are always on the right side (i.e., the winning side). Those on the other side are "insurgents" or something. Whatever the truth about that is, it seems to me that Patriots were fighting for ideas and ideals rather than a specific political nation and they united under their flags, symbols and devices AGAINST a common enemy. The nations that emerged - USA in one example, or the umpteenth French Republic in the other, were not necessarily the desired result ... they just happended to be the actual result. Someone ...Washington, or de Gaulle just took over. Where does this get us? I don't know - I'm rambling ....

But I am sure everyone of us perceives him/herself to be a part of the nation s/he belongs to, despite its faults, is proud of its history, and is happy about it.

Scottishness is just a fantasy. It's your hopes of what Scotland is to other Scottish people. It's you projecting yourself upon something bigger. You are no longer just you. You are part of a greater whole, which makes you in turn more powerful. Mentally it increases your perception of your own power. So I understand it's lure.

But it only works if you don't analyze it. It's works much the same way as the Christian concept of heaven. It's the dream of the place that is important, not the place itself. Because it doesn't exist as a fully formed concept. I'm not talking about denying it's existence, but that it doesn't exist as an idea. Nobody has formulated what heaven is but all Christian people still seem to want to get there. They fill the symbol heaven with as many positive values they can. But it's different for each person.

What is Scottishness? What sets Scots apart from English, or any other nationality? All you get left with is a collection of symbols, that in turn have to be loaded with value by each person just as the symbol Scotland itself.

The identity of a nation can only be defined by what it is not, (just as a person he he, but let's not get in too deep). You cannot say anything about unique characteristics of Scotland, but you can say what they are not, (ie English).

What all patriotic people do, but which patriotic fanatics vocalize is this necessary mental step. You need to stress differences between your and other nations, in your head. These don't exist so they have to be fabricated. What tends to happen is that you make your own nations people as better people than other nations. This is just pulled right out the ass. It's never based on anything. It's just the same hopes and dreams of what Scottishness is.

I'm not talking about cultural traits. As we all know there's always various tendencies of behavior in various regions of the world. But they are not confined by a nations border. And they also vary a lot between classes and peoples jobs.

I liked they old mental idea of a nation. Before Fichte and Herder fucked it up. Where a nation was the private property of a King. France was the property that belonged to the Bourbonne family. Sweden was Bernadottes or Vasa before it. It was completely arbitrary. A war was just one family against another. A family which the common soldier had no relation, and they had no relation to their fellow soldiers, and they knew it. Being patriotic for anything greater than your home village was unheard of.

Any social construct which is in place only to keep stupid people in line, I object to. I like the truth. Patriotism is just another layer of bullshit to make it even harder to see the truth. I've got nothing against national unity, but we should realize that we're no better than anyone else. There's nothing special about our country or it's borders to be proud of. It's completely arbitrary. Maybe you should ask yourself why you need that crutch? Why do you need to blow yourself up like that?

If Sweden would go to war against another nation I might fight. But I'd evaluate what the conflict is about before I'd join. Just one against the other isn't good enough. I don't even back my friends up in every situation. If they've on purpose picked a fight they can't handle, they're on their own.

Here's a suggestion. Stop being proud of Scottish history, and start being proud for yourself. Take pride in what you personally have achieved. You know in your heart that taking credit for other peoples work is not cool, right?

BTW, my family is of Scottish descent.

ThisYouWillDo

06-21-2007, 07:27 AM

OK ... this is getting hard for one such as I - who am wholly ignorant of politics, and hold it and its practitioners in contempt. I don't have the equipment to argue this much further. I'm surprised I am arguing at all, because I thought, at first, Tom and I were of like mind: he said, you cannot say anything about unique characteristics of Scotland, but you can say what they are not (ie English). That seemed to coincide with what I had said about myself, and with my suggestion that the rebel colonies in America, or the Resistance in France, (all made up of different factions) united against a common enemy. In other words, they had identified what they all did not want to be. Just as I have identified that rather than being 50% Scots/50% English, I would prefer to be 100% Scots .

I know it doesn't matter a gnat's fart whether I'm all Scot, all English, of any mixture of the two. Dig back far enough, no doubt I had an ancestor or two from Scandinavia, that doesn't matter either.

But I do identify with Scotland. Many people in the southern US states still identify with the Confederacy, which no longer exists. The rest appear to think they are Irish! Some people in Quebec wish they had French, or at least Quebec nationality, rather than Canadian. They all choose what they want to be, and it is that - the idea - that they are happy with. If Scotland became independent tomorrow, I would, I suppose, become officially an Englishman rather than a citizen of the new Scottish republic, because I currently live in England. I would STILL consider myself a Scot. It has nothing to do with what politicans say, on that level.

It also has nothing to do with whether I am proud of myself or not, and it is offensive to suggest I am riding on the backs of others to bask in their glory. I have claimed no credit for anything, simply the right to make a romantic choice. And, for the record, I am quite comfortable with what I have done in my life, thank-you very much.

Don't run away with the idea that everyone wishes they were something else. Most people of English birth are proud to be English. Most Americans are proud to be American. Most Swedes are happy they are Swedish. They have no problem with their "political" nationality - the one that really counts - even if they have other feelings too.

Tom, who do you support when Sweden plays another country in an international football match? Sweden, maybe?

Would that be because you are a member of the Swedish football team, or because you are a Swedish national?

TYWD

TomOfSweden

06-21-2007, 08:44 AM

But I do identify with Scotland. Many people in the southern US states still identify with the Confederacy, which no longer exists. The rest appear to think they are Irish! Some people in Quebec wish they had French, or at least Quebec nationality, rather than Canadian. They all choose what they want to be, and it is that - the idea - that they are happy with. If Scotland became independent tomorrow, I would, I suppose, become officially an Englishman rather than a citizen of the new Scottish republic, because I currently live in England. I would STILL consider myself a Scot. It has nothing to do with what politicans say, on that level.

When you think of Scotland. What images and emotions pop up in your head?

It also has nothing to do with whether I am proud of myself or not, and it is offensive to suggest I am riding on the backs of others to bask in their glory. I have claimed no credit for anything, simply the right to make a romantic choice. And, for the record, I am quite comfortable with what I have done in my life, thank-you very much.

Subconscious choices are also choices. You choosing not to pursue a line of thought all the way to the end is also a choice. You say it's just a "romantic" choice. But that doesn't explain why you put all this extra positive slant on being Scottish. If it isn't to raise your ego, then what's the point?

Tom, who do you support when Sweden plays another country in an international football match? Sweden, maybe?

Would that be because you are a member of the Swedish football team, or because you are a Swedish national?

TYWD

I'm a sports guy. I love football. I love all sports. But if I don't have friends on the field I really don't care no matter the colour on the shirts. It's utterly and completely arbitrary. I understand the joy of going to a game. You invest emotionally, you get the feeling of a shared goal and some male bonding. It's fun. But I get the same feeling if you go out clubbing with friends. You take joy in friends getting laid. The team won.

ThisYouWillDo

06-21-2007, 10:52 AM

Images: the usual ones ... Wallace, Bruce, bagpipes, haggis, tartan, family, football, Celtic, Rangers, bigotry, poverty, drunkenness, puke on the streets on a Friday night. Does that help?

The end of a line of thought is where you choose to stop. Even you, Tom, have not thought this question through so far that there is nothing further to consider. But you have stopped. Maybe you will return to consider it further, but still you will not reach the ultimate conclusion. How valid, then is your present position?

There's nothing wrong in my being satisfied that I made a choice for romantic reasons. Maybe, for me to pursue the line of thought further would be to work out a rationale for making a choice I would be uncomfortable with. It would be a reasonable choice, but I might refuse to make it because I prefer my romantic conclusion. Many decisions in this world are founded upon prejudice rather than reason: my choice will not upset the balance of things. I challenge you to show that there is nothing in your line of argument founded upon some prejudice or other.

The point is, I associate myself with the "tribe" I wish to be associated with. It's a big tribe - a nation. If that makes me feel better, then good - and I don't see why I should be criticised for it. But I'm not claiming to be made a better person through the association. And I'm not claiming a share of other Scots' achievements.

I can't remember ever watching a football match where I didn't want one side or another to win - even if the reasons were flimsy. To support neither side would mean - for me at least - a level of detachment from the game that takes away all the excitement: to employ your question, what's the point? I find it incredible that you would not rejoice, if only quietly, at your national team's success, but if you are that detached, then I can understand your negative attitude to patriotism a little better.

For me there is nothing wrong with patriotism, it's jingoism that sucks

TYWD

TomOfSweden

06-21-2007, 01:52 PM

Images: the usual ones ... Wallace, Bruce, bagpipes, haggis, tartan, family, football, Celtic, Rangers, bigotry, poverty, drunkenness, puke on the streets on a Friday night. Does that help?

My point is that love for your country is based on small things in your immediate surroundings, that you personally have experienced. These are unique for you. There's no such thing as a general and commonly accepted idea of Scottishness.

The end of a line of thought is where you choose to stop. Even you, Tom, have not thought this question through so far that there is nothing further to consider. But you have stopped. Maybe you will return to consider it further, but still you will not reach the ultimate conclusion. How valid, then is your present position?

There's nothing wrong in my being satisfied that I made a choice for romantic reasons. Maybe, for me to pursue the line of thought further would be to work out a rationale for making a choice I would be uncomfortable with. It would be a reasonable choice, but I might refuse to make it because I prefer my romantic conclusion. Many decisions in this world are founded upon prejudice rather than reason: my choice will not upset the balance of things. I challenge you to show that there is nothing in your line of argument founded upon some prejudice or other.

Well, this is where philosophy comes in. We have to accept various theories that take a hell of a lot of explaining than I have time for. I'm not sure I could. Philosophy is a amazingly difficult subject. Schopenhauer was the one who introduced that we thought in symbols. Everything we do symbolizes one of our pretty basic drives. Freud added some things of his own to Schopenhauer's system. And nobody has yet convincingly been able to show flaws in it, even though plenty have tried.

So the basic question must be. What does Scotland symbolize for you? When you say to yourself, "I am Scottish". What happens in your head? I'm guessing you get filled with pride. That is where I'm getting at. Where does this pride come from. What does Scotland and Scottishness symbolize to you? Why does it make you react emotionally?

A nation is an abstract. It's like a rectangle in maths. If you don't load it up with emotional value it will do nothing for you. It's not like a babies face, which we are pre-programmed to react to.

The point is, I associate myself with the "tribe" I wish to be associated with. It's a big tribe - a nation. If that makes me feel better, then good - and I don't see why I should be criticised for it. But I'm not claiming to be made a better person through the association. And I'm not claiming a share of other Scots' achievements.

We always associate ourselves with tribes all the time. It's a major part of what being human is all about. Nothing wrong with that. If I remember correctly, the biggest tribe our minds can handle is about 30. Bigger than that and we sub-consciously start dividing it up into smaller more manageable groups, sub-tribes. Behavioural psychology isn't really science so let's not get to hung up on numbers here. But we have no way to relate to lots of people. In our heads it quickly turns into an abstract concept for us.

I'm certain that when you are out traveling and you meet another Scottish person, the first thing you do is project your vision of Scottishness,(or whatever sub-tribe you assume they belong to) and work from there. We all do. That's why our brains our so fast. We draw conclusions about things we have only partial evidence to support, very fast.

I can't remember ever watching a football match where I didn't want one side or another to win - even if the reasons were flimsy. To support neither side would mean - for me at least - a level of detachment from the game that takes away all the excitement: to employ your question, what's the point? I find it incredible that you would not rejoice, if only quietly, at your national team's success, but if you are that detached, then I can understand your negative attitude to patriotism a little better.

You have to tell yourself that you have something in common with the national teams players. If you don't, you'll sure as hell feel detached. Because you are. And I totally understand your sentiment. If you don't invest emotionally in one of the sides it quickly becomes pointless. At least on other levels than the world cup. Watching beautiful ball play is pure fucking art, no matter what team you're rooting for.

For me there is nothing wrong with patriotism, it's jingoism that sucks

I think it's the same concept. It just differs in degree. One is vocal about the national chauvinism and and the other is tacit about it. But I guess we disagree here.

ThisYouWillDo

06-21-2007, 06:04 PM

gloombunny

06-21-2007, 06:18 PM

They're all romantic freeloaders like you. :)

(Actually I'm not clear on what you mean by "freeloaders" here...)

TomOfSweden

06-21-2007, 10:14 PM

Right ... now I'm really out of my depth! But, although I cannot deny that what you say seems convincing and logical, I don't accept it . There seeems to me to be a basic flaw in your argument. Nations do exist and people are proud to belong to them. Unless you say they are all romantic freeloaders like me, then it takes some explaining, doesn't it?

TYWD

I think that the problem is that I'm just not good enough at this. I just suck too much at explaining philosophy. It's not being a freeloader. It's identifying with an image that doesn't exist. Strictly speaking it doesn't really matter to me who or what you identify with. But there's a communication gap between what it means to you and other Scots. So what is patriotism if you can't agree on that basic thing?

On top of that I think it doesn't really help world politics and can be dangerous when in the hands of morons, (ie neo nazis and other racist nationalists).

But I'm not sure how I could say this any better so I'll just bow out and hope someone else here is better than me at this. Please help :am:

ThisYouWillDo

06-22-2007, 04:32 AM

They're all romantic freeloaders like you. :)

(Actually I'm not clear on what you mean by "freeloaders" here...)

Lol - Natalie: it was a reference to something Tom said that offended me ... but I'm over it now.

I think that the problem is ... identifying with an image that doesn't exist ... there's a communication gap between what it means to you and other Scots. So what is patriotism if you can't agree on that basic thing?

Is there a gap? I've never been aware of it. OK - there are differences - but they aren't communication gaps. But we all agree, for example, that we'd rather be Scots than any other nationality. And we can do this without a thought as to what the truth is about its status in the United Kingdom or in the world. We are certain in our knowledge that Scotland is the best country in the world, just as Americans know that the USA is, and as (most?) Swedes know that Sweden is. And we know we cannot defend ourselves against pure logic, but we don't care.

On top of that I think it doesn't really help world politics and can be dangerous when in the hands of morons, (ie neo nazis and other racist nationalists).

Agreed: no argument. But if they can't use patriotism as a vehicle for expressing their beliefs, they will find something else, sadly.

But I'm not sure how I could say this any better so I'll just bow out and hope someone else here is better than me at this.

You've done a grand job, as far as I can see. Your problem was you were debating with someone who couldn't keep up (me). I do understand that a nation is an artificial entity, just like a corporation is. It makes no more difference to belong to any one nation than it does to work for any corporation*. Nevertheless, I am proud to have worked for the companies that have employed me. And, without being fanatical about it, I am proud of being a Scot. I'm proud of my English side, too, even if only to a lesser extent.

Maybe this thread is concluded, but if it isn't, then use short words, simple ideas and type slowly!

TYWD

* If you ignore the fact that nations have different living standards and corporations offer different career paths.

ThisYouWillDo

06-22-2007, 04:39 AM

Another (light-hearted) question, Tom. Why was it necessary in a BDSM site to include "ofSweden" in your name. Wouldn't it have been better to call yourself (say) "Tomthe PainMaster" or "TomtheDom" or something like that.

Or do I detect just a little bit of pride there?

TYWD

TomOfSweden

06-22-2007, 04:56 AM

Is there a gap? I've never been aware of it. OK - there are differences - but they aren't communication gaps. But we all agree, for example, that we'd rather be Scots than any other nationality. And we can do this without a thought as to what the truth is about its status in the United Kingdom or in the world. We are certain in our knowledge that Scotland is the best country in the world, just as Americans know that the USA is, and as (most?) Swedes know that Sweden is. And we know we cannot defend ourselves against pure logic, but we don't care.

This is where I was aiming at. You know yourself that it doesn't work logically. As I said earlier I understand it's mechanism. It's makes you feel bigger than you are. But as you point out, you know it is false. It's like a little kid grabbing a plastic sword and doing the He-Man thing. He knows it's false, but he doesn't care. It makes him feel great anyway.

I guess it's down to basic philosophy of life. Do you think aiming for truth is more important than happiness? Even though I think happiness can be found anyway, but anyhoo. It's great that the choice you made here was a conscious one.

Another (light-hearted) question, Tom. Why was it necessary in a BDSM site to include "ofSweden" in your name. Wouldn't it have been better to call yourself (say) "Tomthe PainMaster" or "TomtheDom" or something like that.

Or do I detect just a little bit of pride there?

TYWD

My avatar picture is by the gay BDSM artist who calls himself Tom of Finland. My name is Tom and I live in Sweden. That's just as far as my thought train went on that one I'm afraid.

But I actually do love lots of things about Sweden, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. I'm sure I've got plenty of things in common with so called Swedish patriots. But I don't love Sweden as a concept. I'm not a proud Swede as such. Sweden is just a political construct. Territory conquered by the Vasa's and ancient Jarl's. Everything I personally can define as Sweden is probably confined to a pretty small area of Stockholm. I don't really know much about anything else in this country. It's not like I've traveled the land and lived in all it's hamlets in all it's occupations. Countries are very different from place to place. South of Sweden is mostly Danish and the north is Same. It's mostly just things I've read, just as most things about Timbuktu or Ulan Bator are things that I've read rather than experienced. It's all just fantasies in my head.

It's was fun anyway. Thanks for taking your time.

gloombunny

06-22-2007, 06:28 PM

annie

06-23-2007, 09:05 AM

TomOfSweden

06-23-2007, 09:24 AM

All right Tom and Thisyouwilldo... ENOUGH! The debate needs to stay friendly, without drawing conclusions or throwing out flaming responses or i will close the thread and take further action if need be! When the initial thread was posted i am fairly certain THIS was not the intent! The intent was "what patriotism means to you and/or what is your definition of partiotism" So both of you... stop it! NOW! You're points are made.. MOVE ON!

Annie

Hey, wait a minute. I don't think this was called for. Sure, it's your call as a moderator, but I think we both have been super nice to each other. On top of this the discussion is allready over.

Flaming implies some kind of insult. I can't find a single one in any of our posts. :28:

annie

06-23-2007, 10:03 AM

Hey, wait a minute. I don't think this was called for. Sure, it's your call as a moderator, but I think we both have been super nice to each other. On top of this the discussion is allready over.

Flaming implies some kind of insult. I can't find a single one in any of our posts. :28:

You have a pm concerning this response. Any further questions please see a Super Mod or an Admin.

Thanks!
annie

Logic1

07-12-2007, 12:23 PM

As a person living in Skåne. The part furthest south in Sweden and that is actually a part that is occupied from Dennmark in the 1680s in a war, I cant say I feel very much as a patriotic Swede but I do like Sweden as a country and we do many things right . . aand lots of things wrong like every other country in the world.
I do however think that Swedes as a country arent very patriotic at all compared to lots of other countries due to the fact that we have basically been at peace since about 1700 or so (cant be bothered to check the exact date either :p).

+ Tom of Finland is a beautifully drawn gay comic. not saying anything about Tom of Swedens sexual preferences or anything like that. http://www.tomoffinlandfoundation.org/

cbtboyuk

07-23-2007, 07:56 AM

Surely the problem with patriotism is that it is - like racism or homophobia - yet another arbitrary and potentially irrational division that we draw up to separate ourselves from humanity as a whole. In this day and age, facing the global issues that we do, patriotism is a backwards step - and moreover, it seems to me to be the refuge of that primitive/childish urge to blame someone else for the things that go wrong in our lives. "It's not us that cause the problems of the world, it those damn Iraquis (or whoever)"

I think Northern Europe is different, not least because the countries are small and next to each other, so one tends of necessity to know about one's neighbours. Both Britain and America are slightly different by dint of being geographically separate, and whilst i make no claims for the UK (empire, etc blah blah), America has reinforced this historically with isolationist policies. i think the thing that amazed me about 9/11 most was the number of relatively intelligent Americans whose reaction was "But why would anyone want to do this to us? We're the good guys?". Obviously there is no excuse for mass murder, but how is it possible to be so ignorant of the world not to at least understand that some people just don't see things your way?

i'm afraid that we sort of laugh at all the US flag waving - people with flags outside houses, cars, schools etc. Surely you can remember what country you're in? Perhaps it's time to learn more about the planet you're on too. Although i must just say that i don't think that this is necessarily true of all or any given American individual, just more of the image of "America" that we get over here.

+ Tom of Finland is a beautifully drawn gay comic. not saying anything about Tom of Swedens sexual preferences or anything like that. http://www.tomoffinlandfoundation.org/

Yes. Raising the hopes of innocent homosexuals, just to dash them onto the rocks below. That's what i call that! :D

thezigg

07-31-2007, 07:35 AM

Alot of the people that claim to be patriots and wave a flag and all that crap are anything but patriots. I read the opening post in here and none of the ones that folowed so if I apologise if Im saying what someone else already said. I laugh at the person that has the bumper sticker to support the troops and then yells as loud as they can to stop giving them money to do there job. Its so easy to buy a flag or a bumper sticker but its your actions that dictate if your a patriot or not. The guys that took the wounded troops on a canoe ride? That is great and Im sure it made everyone feel better about themselves for a afternoon but then what? The soldiers still are in need of help to get a accustomed to life without a limb. The patriot donates money to VA hospitals or donates real time to raise money for them or help in some way. They are the people that find a way to give wounded Vets a job doing something or give them discounts on expenses. These are just examples but the patriot puts real time and real money into helping those that fought for them. Buying a sticker of a ribbon to put on your car is real stylish but all it does is make the sticker maker rich. Unless he is donating parts of his profits to the troops it isnt all that patriotic.

I also think that most of our Govt in Washington is unpatriotic. But thats for another day.