Something I noticed while reading stories.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I noticed that many stories appearing in the library seem geared more toward wanton violence, mostly toward women, and non-consensual sex. I was wondering a little about this and some of the ramifications of this.

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman? Are the stories written by people that have lived these fantasies out and look to do so again? Perhaps they are written to satiate the primal sexual desire before they actually act the fantasy out. Perhaps I am reading way too much into things, but I'm tired and it seemed like a good line of thought at the time.

I consider myself to be very tolerant of others. In fact, I am more tolerant of individuals than I am of cultures. Therefore, I understand that these stories are just stories. Fantasies and musings from minds possibly as twisted and corrupt as my own. So, i refuse to pass judgement on what a person writes. It is, after all, the actiions that speak louder than words.

At any rate, it was a passing musing that I had noticed. I thought, perhaps, that there would be more educational articles and stories than the presence of pure violence.

And don't get me wrong, please. Occasionally, I get in just the right mood for some good, old-fashioned violence. Just not all the time. So, I ask the good people here if they could please try to keep the perspective of the website in mind when contributing their material.

Thanks.

[Marcus]

I thought this topic deserved a reply even if you didn't actually ask a particular question.

This subject may be a bit complex for lil ol' me, but here goes...

It's true there are a lot of 'dark thoughts' here and many are repulsive to my mind, although many are quite appealing to me! ;)

I don't believe that there is such a great divide between these 'dark thoughts' and our own morality as many would make out. It's the rule of law and the general consensus on our society that largely confines these acts to the world of fantasy.

The atrocities of the 20th century indicate quite clearly what man is capable of doing to others once he is told it is permissible and 'normal'. There were instances of mass rapes in Bosnia during the Balkans conflicts. I don't think this was caused through people reading or writing pornographic 'literature'.

I am more worried about people that have a fetish for knives, guns, other weapons, and death (not necrophilia/sex related).
We have a case of a doctor in the UK that killed at least 240 of his patients over a long period (don't get me going about police detectives again!). There was apparently no sexual motive involved! Now that is scary.

So my conclusion is that although the 'thoughts and ideas' on this site may not usually be exactly healthy I don't think they are particularly worrying or strange.

The amount of soul-less, gratuitous violence and killing that is sometimes glorified in our movies and media troubles me far more.

[boccaccio2000g]

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman? Are the stories written by people that have lived these fantasies out and look to do so again? Perhaps they are written to satiate the primal sexual desire before they actually act the fantasy out. Perhaps I am reading way too much into things, but I'm tired and it seemed like a good line of thought at the time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As one who writes rather violent stories, I'd like to respond toer that. I have no conscious anger toward women, much less any specific woman. I have never physically harmed a woman in my life, and have no wish to do so. In fact, I tend to fall in love, a bit, with most of the heroines in my stories, even though I subject many of them to some frightful ordeals. Why do I subject these beautiful creatures of my imagination to these ordeals? I don't know.

But regardless of how my villains mistreat them, in my heart of hearts I have great respect for my heroines, (as I do for women in general). With one or two exceptions, the women in my stories are nobler and more decent than the men. I sincerely hope that comes across in the stories.

I hope that readers find my stories erotic; but I also fervently hope that everyone realizes that they are no more real than the violence in a road-runner cartoon. Hopefully some find the sex and violence entertaining; if not I have failed miserably. But that is all it is -- an entertainment, a collection of dark fantasies.

Having read stories like these for a number of years, I think that (for most people) they provide a more or less healthy release for the troubling things that lurk in the remote corners of some of our minds.

I have always been concerned that a disturbed reader might try to act out one of the violent scenes in my stories. This is one of the reasons I set them far in the past, and usually in far-off places -- to lengthen the distance between the stories and some warped person's "reality".
******************************

So, I ask the good people here if they could please try to keep the perspective of the website in mind when contributing their material.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But what IS the perspective of the website? I thought that its guiding purpose was that adults who were so inclined could read stories/articles expressing various points of view about BDSM. And there is certainly a tremendous variety of tastes catered to here; if you don't care for stories with lots of violence, it is not difficult to avoid the ones whose story codes put you off. I'd be very surprised if there was any member here who didn't avoid SOME story code(s).

Boccacio

[kimberly]

i too miss a good bondage story.....
::drifts off into thought of a St Andrews Cross::


Master's slave and soulmate,

[Marcus]

i too miss a good bondage story.....
::drifts off into thought of a St Andrews Cross::


Surely not! Do you need some recommendations?

Maybe Paul could read you some stories while you are on the Cross!

[Pooka]

I hope I am doing this correctly! :)

I am hoping to reply to Marcus and boccaccio2000g.

I have been reading the epic tale Boccaccio2000 has been writing and I have been enjoying it though have not yet given it a review. :) It's excellent quality writing and the story is compelling despite my general lack of interest in Asian history/culture of that time. LOL!

As a woman, I will add that having characters suffer violence isn't necessarily a quality of hate. In my own fantasies, I endure a great many trials as a way perhaps to feel that I'm up to any challenge? That I am strong, worthy of respect, even by my adversary. This is a common and very compelling theme and it is something that seems to sprout even from childhood. If you recall your own childhood games, or observe children playing, they are always facing adversity and overcoming it. It seems to be a way of preparing to face real challenges but underneath that, we all do want to feel that we are not powerless, that we will stand up for our own rights and our convictions. It is a theme to be found everywhere.

There is actually a very positive statement about the heroines resisting, enduring and never giving in (okay, some sometimes they do *grin*) ... it means they are strong and don't immediately cave in to demands of 'kneel bitch'. I think strong women are easily admired in such settings, especially since generally the women are in control of the men anyway. *grin* Interesting duality here. Strong women can be admired by men only if men truly have the upper hand? *wink*

I agree with Marcus concerning the atrocities that Man is capable of. While the U.S. began with the 'rule of law' premise, that is slowly being eroded and soon there will be little standing between us and total chaos where violence could very well become the accepted norm. It's well on its way already. :(

Thanks for a great topic!

Pooka

[Paul{k}]

A St. Andrew's Cross has deep significance for Me and My slave. W/we have often played with one, and the very first time kimberly was on one was a turning point in O/our relationship, leading U/us to realize just how much W/we mean to E/each O/other.

I will certainly be happy to read to kimberly while she is on one...but only for a few minutes. I have better ways of making her writhe and twist and squirm on the cross than by reading erotica to her.

*winks*

Sincerely,

Paul{k}
Master and Soulmate of kimberly{P} :D

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I try to post these thought-provoking topics to make sure everyone's had their morning coffee and get their brains working.

Or maybe it's to get my brain working... I'm not really sure.

i enjoy not only writing stories for the site, but I like writing posts and replies, mostly replies, for the message boards. However, I do have an artcile I want to post about romanticising bdsm relationships. I'm just a little worried about posting it as I fear it may offend the sensibilities of many members and I might get run out of here on a rail. ;)

Anyway, I hope you like the site. Keep posting. I enjoy having something to reply to.

[Marcus]

There is actually a very positive statement about the heroines resisting, enduring and never giving in (okay, some sometimes they do *grin*) ...... Strong women can be admired by men only if men truly have the upper hand? *wink*

So true. Very well said. In terms of BDSM fiction I love stong, intelligent women particularly in a M/f setting. I couldn't bear to have a brainless, spineless heroine. Her plight is just so much more interesting than the Master's, even though I speak as a definite M. As you say 'an interesting duality'.


especially since generally the women are in control of the men anyway. *grin*
Hmmm, not sure about that one :eek:

[BDSM_Tourguide]

... come over here and say that. ;)

[Paul{k}]

Dear Tourguide,

Go ahead and post the article that You spoke of, and don't worry about offending A/anybody's sensibilities. I think A/all of U/us are capable of handling any thought-provoking material that is brought to U/us here.

Sincerely,

Paul{k}
Master and Soulmate of kimberly{P}

[Pooka]

I wrote:

I think strong women are easily admired in such settings, especially since generally the women are in control of the men anyway. *grin*

-=-=-

What I meant to say is that in most situations, women don't and can't have the upper hand because the men have them under control or in some situation that the women cannot hope to escape in any event. And perhaps the women in some ways like it that way. :)

Hope that clears things up Marcus! *grin*

Sometimes my wording gets the best of me.

Pooka

[Pooka]

Originally posted by Paul{k}
Dear Tourguide,

Go ahead and post the article that You spoke of, and don't worry about offending A/anybody's sensibilities. I think A/all of U/us are capable of handling any thought-provoking material that is brought to U/us here.


I second the request ...

Yes, please do! This is my favorite topic of conversation!

New ideas and thoughts only bounce off closed minded people anyway, while those of us that enjoy them will have fun and even gain a bit of a new perspective!

Pooka

[cumeelion]

[I noticed that many stories appearing in the library seem geared more toward wanton violence, mostly toward women, and non-consensual sex.]


Maybe they're just mad at Brenda!

[Jennifer-Nylon]

There doesn't seem to be much female domination stories here or maybe I've just missed them because I'm not particularly interested in that aspect.

I must confess I rather like the wanton violen against women.:D

[BDSM_Tourguide]

There are femdom stories aplenty at this site. If you do an advanced search and click yes by all the F/whatever stories, you will find an inordinate amount of things for your reading pleasure.

As for wanton violence toward women, I prefer the violence to have something to do with the plot at least. Not just someone whacking the heads off women or torturing them just to prove they can.

I realize my story "Rose Takes a Day Off" is quite violent toward Rose, but she's learning to shut her mouth, too. My violence tends to help out the story, not just hurt the woman.

[Jennifer-Nylon]

I'm sure there is Female Domination stories here.

I was referring to women who dominate men though and as those type of stories have no interest for me, I don't really see them?

Violence has to have some reason, I agree. I rather like your story by the way. :)

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I rather don't like the F/m stories, either. But I'm kind of biased.

[Finding_Fantasy]

People are facinated by violence. I don't care you are or how often you say you aren't, you are. Somehwere, deep down inside, your primal instincts (for lack of a better word) make you interested.

For example, a lot of people will see a heart warming, lovey dovey, chick flick, or perhaps a tear jerking commercial about coming home from the holidays and change the channel. But what do they do when they see a war movie with some poor guy getting his leg blown off, or some person been tortured cruelly? THEY WATCH.

People crave violence in their lives. I don't know why, but they do. I am not head shrinker so I won't even hazard a guess, but it's true, people will stop and watch a house burn, a bloody, death filled car accident before they will watch a little kid playing happily in park (though if you do do this you may be consider a pedophile).

And the news. We will watch about people getting murdered in a place that has absolutely nothing to do with us on the other side of the world, but watch about some local kid winning a spelling bee (bad example). Forget it. We want action, we want violence. We don't want all this nice stuff.

I, myself, have death and torture in the novels I write. Why? Because it's what people want. If no one dies or if no one is tortured or maimed, no one wants to read it. AT least the majority.

Now maybe I sound a little bit synical or bascially disappointed in the human race, but it is my opinion and what I have observed. Agree or disagree with me if you like, these are just my own ramblings.

[Venus]

My opinion

Personaly I like violent stories (within reason of course). The more excited I get the more violent stories I read. However, for me it's not just violence that is exciting, but the whole concept of a man in control. I believe that both men and women have their place in life. And I am not saying that in an offensive way. I maybe a business woman in real life and get things done at work, but I need to be with a man who will be more experienced in life so that I could turn to him.
It's very hard to explain, but when I read violent stories for me they represent control, of course some stories are just violent and that's it. However, I prefer stories with a plot so that I could see the relationship form.
Over all I like violent stories, but only as stories because some are just too violent and bordering with torture and other require a very particular setting. I might be interested in experiencing some of the ordeals, but usually it's not possible. For example I love rape and kidnapping stories the ones that have some romance in them, but what are the chances in real life to get kidnapped by handsome dom, to be dominated and to be raped but at the same time to enjoy great sex? I think everyone will agree that it's almost impossible so I guess for me these stories are more of a fantasy that I read for entertainment.

[veru_skjava]

I have a hard time reading stories that are just plain violent towards women.

This is probably strange since on the other hand I love creative and divisive torture.

The act of just beating a woman for the cruelty sends me into defense mode. Simultaneously though a good and well thought out torture scene, especially sexual torture can arouse me tremendously.

just my two cents ;)
veru skjava

[Finding_Fantasy]

I would have to agree with you there, veru. A story that has violence with no reason other than the pure sake of violence has little to no interest to me. It in fact makes me a little angry. Maybe perhaps because I was in an intensely abusive relationship where I was beaten on a whim? I don't know.

Isn't it kind of funny how we find just blatant, unprovoked violence as appalling and yet if it has a "purpose" a "meaning" we get aroused? Strange isn't it. I guess we BDSMer's are a weird sort of animal;)

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Maybe it's a good thing that my blushing bride doesn't ever read my stories. The last one cannot be deemed as consentual by a long shot.

On the other hand, at least the violence serves a porpoise.

[bunnyrabbit48]

There is no exact measure in this. A violence story to me may be a lame story to another, and vice versa. If I said it is okay to have violence providing the story is tastefully done, then one person's opinion of tastefully done is different than another.

A few years ago, Threshold, one of the larger Los Angeles chapter of BDSM group has a member who left because some members post actual violence slavery story and these members posted the story just like any other gossip. That female member left the group and post a message saying "hey, these are not fantasy, they are reality. And quite frankly I agree with her.

On the other hand, if violence is posted in a fantasy novel, I would like it all depends on who the reader is to determine whether it is tastefully done or not.

[Finding_Fantasy]

But as bunnyrabbit has stated, it needs to be tastefully done. From what you have told me about your story, Master dear, it is tastefully done. I just have a hard time reading erotic stories. Don't ask me why, cause I have no idea. But I will read it, pehaps when it is finished, that way I can read it from start to finish. :)

[veru_skjava]

Hmmmmmmm I do not feel consenual is important, I actually search for n/c codes, as I prefer them.

The difficulty I have is the brutality of some stories.

Maybe this can illustrate what I mean. I was listening to an online scene, the slave was bound between two posts, and lots of delicious tortures were used, electric, floggers, canes, whips, **mmmmmm** delicious.

Following her being released, folding herself up into a ball on the floor, a second dominant came over and kicked her in the stomach!

THAT is sooooo unacceptable to my interior reactions. In fact it so dispturbed me that I have a very hard time with that individuals involvement in scenes, online OR (and especially) off.

I am not criticizing, just stating what does it for me, and what turns me of completely!

Thanks,
veru skjava

[Finding_Fantasy]

I miss that. BDSM_Tourguide and myself met in a chatroom (yes we are an online success story). When we first started going there, there were scenes every night, slaves and submissives served their Masters and Mistresses, and were respectable. Now, if you try to have a scene they have a heart attack. Granted now there are a lot of "newbies" and none of the "old folks" as we called them. We rarely go there anymore because a lot of people there are flakey. We have been hard pressed to find a good chat place. I was given a good one when I first came here, but it won't work from my work computer. It's too old Ah well

As for the submissive being kicked by a dominant while she was down...I would have lost it, being a submissive or not. I don't care who you think you are or what you think you are, you never kick someone when they are down. It's a general humane pricipal. I can't tell you how much that makes me mad.

[veru_skjava]

smiles I agree completely!

here are two wonderful chat rooms, LOL ok so i am biased,

the first one truely encourages scenes, though not "serves" and as I have stated elsewhere is a chat room named after a story here on the site.
the owner of the room, DemonLady is the author of that story. here is the link:
Raiders Dungeon chat room (http://geocities.com/raiders_dungeon/chat.html)

This room encourages sceneing as well as serves of all degrees, be sure to read the ettiquette and rules page. I will give the front door of the site to this location.

The D/s Garden (http://www.thedsgarden.com)

Since we are at yahoo together, you know the other names I go by, I'm sure you may find these two loacations rather enjoyable.

I hope to see you there.

*smiles*

veru skjava:)

[Finding_Fantasy]

That's great! Thanks a lot veru. Having the links here will help since I don't actually like to leave a trail of where I have been at work. I'm allowed to surf, but somehow I think they would frown on me using it for this kind of stuff. ;)

[boccaccio2000g]

As for the submissive being kicked by a dominant while she was down...I would have lost it, being a submissive or not. I don't care who you think you are or what you think you are, you never kick someone when they are down. It's a general humane pricipal. I can't tell you how much that makes me mad. [/B][/QUOTE]

I have been following the exchange between you and Veru with some interest. A question -- "I can't tell you how much that makes me mad" -- are you referring to real life, in those words (in which case I would absolutely agree with you, of course) ? Or to stories in which villainous characters demonstrate such brutality as well?

Villains, by definition, are not going to observe conventional codes of conduct or morality.

We each have our own comfort zone, I suspect, beyond which we quickly grow uncomfortable with additional levels of violence. Mine is set fairly high, I think, (in my stories, I mean), but even so, I get about as many requests to ratchet the violence up a notch, as I do to ratchet it down.

No one ever says I got it just right. :-)

Do other authors get similar comments? Does anyone ever heed them? Or do you just continue writing in your own way as best you can?

Thanks in advance,

Boccaccio

[Finding_Fantasy]

I definitely meant in real life terms. I have been in an abusive relationship, though not a BDSM one where my ex kicked me when I was down...after he was the one who put me there. So I guess I kind of thake that sort of stuff personally. I probaboy shouldn't but I do.

As for brutality in writing? Well, it doesn't bother me. If it did, I would be a hypocrite. I have quite a fair amount of violence in the stories that I write. For example, the history of one of my characters was beaten, gang raped, then soaked in kerosene and set on fire. With another, her husband had been poisoning her for years until she "betrayed" him and he snapped her neck



So all in all, I don't have a problem with violence as long as it is fiction, if that makes sense. But real violebce, treating someone like dirt. No thanks.

[veru_skjava]

What I was discussing Boccacio was how I tend to dislike brutal violence incorporated with torture.

Now that may make no sense, as most of the "torture" I truely enjoy is down right extreme!!

*blushes* maybe that is a different subject... :o

Now villians, as in men with men, and angry men with women are another issue all together, though why waste brutality on a woman in a story when she can be tortured?

Giggles...

I have been up toooo long and am not making sense to myself, I should come back to this another time, but wanted to make that comment while it was in my mind.

veru skjava

[Finding_Fantasy]

Torture as we definae it today is not what it once was either. Torture in the medieval era was brutality today. For example, if you spoke out against your King or your God you were branded a heretic. If found guilty, you were put into a heretic's fork. It's a particualrly nasty device that was worn by the convicted. It's a collar that locks around you neck. In the front are two prongs, like a bbq fork, that are thrust up into the person's lower jaw. With this in place, the heretic is no longer able to speak...nor eat or anything else and eventually dies of starvation.

It's funny how soft we have become as humans, isn't it? There is so much which we consider as brutal in our civilized age that was considered normal punishment way back when.

[nikki]

Boccaccio Wrote:
"Do other authors get similar comments? Does anyone ever heed them? Or do you just continue writing in your own way as best you can?"


From the sublime to the ridiculous, i get all sorts of 'advice'...first instinct was to 'obey' (naturally!) but then i started to realise that every person that mailed me wanted something different..some wanted more violence, some less, etc. etc...

now, i go with what feels right for me, and if i get mail that actually inspires me, in that i feel that the suggestions work, i use them, i love to hear what people want, but rarely heed it, if i did, i'd only have a couple of happy readers!

Can i take this opportunity to say that, unfortunately, the best reviews i've ever had come to me via private mail, which is fine, but when a story gets pretty well slated publicly, whilst adored privately, it puts the author in a predicament, i had 2 public reviews of 'Symon and Louise' that suggested i re-write, but more than 10 people privately contacted me to ask that i didn't... what's a girl to do???

nikki

[veru_skjava]

Can i take this opportunity to say that, unfortunately, the best reviews i've ever had come to me via private mail, which is fine, but when a story gets pretty well slated publicly, whilst adored privately, it puts the author in a predicament, i had 2 public reviews of 'Symon and Louise' that suggested i re-write, but more than 10 people privately contacted me to ask that i didn't... what's a girl to do???

Reviewers are very valuable, maybe authors could suggest those that email them register and review?

Just a thought...

veru skjava:)

[nikki]

ideally, yes.... but many people don't wish to declare publicly that they like what they've read, maybe due to the nature/content of the story, or just plain shy. i would rather have private input than none at all, and half of those who do mail me privately are already registered...maybe the story i refered to was a bad example, as principle character is somewhat young....apparently;)

nikki

[Finding_Fantasy]

Now, I don't write exotic stories, I just don't have the right knack for them, but I am a writer. I usually go for what the masses suggest, what I mean is, if a whole lot of people suggest the same thing, then perhaps I will take a second look at it.

It is tough being a writer because there are some people who are overly critical. Some are that way because they want to help but others are because they are just plain old cranky...or jealous of your talent ;) All in all I try to take the good with the bad whether it is public or not. Granted not a whole lot have read my stuff because the only place I have it is on my homepage and no one ever writes me from there to tell me how it was *shrugs* Ah well, the few that have replied have been helpful.

Basically, I know I have my own style and way of doing things. Suggestions are always welcomed but that doesn't mean I have to follow them. If I get the same suggestion from various people over and over, I consider it... only if it isn't detrimental to the story. :)

[Spitman]

I noticed that many stories appearing in the library seem geared more toward wanton violence, mostly toward women, and non-consensual sex. I was wondering a little about this and some of the ramifications of this.

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman? Are the stories written by people that have lived these fantasies out and look to do so again? Perhaps they are written to satiate the primal sexual desire before they actually act the fantasy out.

I realise that this is an old thread, but it raised interesting questions that were not fully answered by the responses.

There were periods of my early life when I was totally deprived of female company. There were compensations of a different kind, but a world without women was a bleak, grey world without colour, emotionally unfulfilling. This kind of deprivation did not make me feel angry against women - there were no women to be angry with, and if there had been, there would have been no such deprivation. On returning to what I regarded as civilisation my senses were so bombarded with joyful images in bright technicolour that it seemed I was living every hour and every minute twice over.

A young man, living for weeks on end under such circumstances, having the normal complement of hormones such as testosterone, needs an outlet for the aggression that is normally released through sexual activity. I used to write fantasies of wild, uninhibited and often imaginative aggression where the recipients of all that aggression were attractive young naked women. I did enjoy doing this. I wrote reams of that kind of stuff. However, back in civilisation, my attitude towards women was not aggressive at all in a violent sense. I never had any inclination to be violent to a woman. I see that as a kind of balance, the fantasy discharging pent-up emotions that contrasted with my well mannered and considerate behaviour in real life.

So, far from indicating repressed, or even actively expressed misogyny, the stories may often be the fantasy on the opposite side of the behavioural coin. It is curious that the Gorean saga refers to an alternative world, as it does. By the way he has constructed his scenario, John Norman may be saying exactly the same thing.

[j]

Generally I would say that to write a story as a way to materialize one's fantasies may be good therapy and/or masturbatory practice, but it makes for lousy erotic literature. Good writers use their fantasies, but they also transcend them, use others', deliberately break boundaries (pushing the envelope is part of the literary fun, whereas it breaks the real life one), so that any story which raises questions about the writer's sanity or balance of mind is in itself (IMHO) a bad story.

Some stories do carry a tremendous amount of anger/hatred towards women; I find them frightful, and frightfully boring (Woodburn's stories come to mind). Other stories, quite as horrific in content, but devoid of any perdonal agenda of hatred or contempt, lead me to erotic bliss. Go figure.

[mickni2000]

Hi :)

I have read your thread and I would like to write a comment.

First of all you have to excuse my English as I'm not a native English writer.

You wrote among others

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman? Are the stories written by people that have lived these fantasies out and look to do so again? Perhaps they are written to satiate the primal sexual desire before they actually act the fantasy out. Perhaps I am reading way too much into things, but I'm tired and it seemed like a good line of thought at the time.

I write stories myself. One of my stories is quite popular. You can read it using the link http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/...hp?storyid=1785 . It’s named Janet’s Ordeal.

Please read some of the reviews for the story using the link http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/...hp?storyid=1785 . The story is the most voted this site.

Furthermore I have written a thread here concerning co-writers for a new role-play and story. The headline for this thread is "Janet's Ordeal, co-writers for a new story."

The story mentioned is a role-play meaning it is written by a very close female cyber friend and I. It’s an extremely cruel story and you could easily get the thought that I’m angry with women. But this is completely wrong. I love and adore women and I would never do like this unless it is a mutual agreement. Some women actually want the pain to continue until they faint. Being in charge for treatment like this is a great responsibility as I would as the Master be responsible for safety. I actually think I would be the one mostly afraid as I would continuously be afraid that I caused her permanent damage. I would treat her like this because I loved her and because I knew that this was the only way to give her the kick and the total sexual satisfaction. When I had her in public I would treat her like a princess as she would mean a lot to me because she was ready to suffer all that pain for me. She would always be able to feel safe. Her fear would only be the sweet fear of what is coming next? How will he test me next? Not real fear as she always would know that she was able to stop it if she wanted. If I let other Masters or Mistresses use her they would never be allowed to explore limits as this would only be something I did because I know her so well and therefore I would be the one capable to keep her on the limit and still make sure she was safe. If they did exceed her limits they would no longer be a friend of mine unless they were able to explain why they did and both my slave and I accepted this explanation. I have always had the opinion that though a woman wants to be treated like a slave and sometimes like shit or worse it doesn’t mean you don’t have to treat her with respect. She would always remain precious to me and be something special to me because she reflected my ‘dark’ desires. This is in my opinion the perfect Master/slave relation or Mistress/slave relation. Do you agree?

Take care……………..

Mick

[teamster]

Dear Tourguide... While I agree with you that I have read some stories here that seem almost sickeningly hateful or violent, especially some of the snuff or cannibalistic pieces, and some that are just unrelievedly grim, I think that it would be a mistake to start censoring such material. If you don't like a story, or you feel that it is just plain hateful, then tell the author so in your review. No doubt if he gets a number of such messages, he might consider rethinking his approach. I can say for myself that in my fiction I deliberately strove to make it as extreme as possible, and made careful note in the preface that this was a work of fantasy and not a recommendation for actual behavior. In real life we need to excercise care and concern for others, especially those who trust us enough to become involved in bdsm-oriented relationships with us. But in fiction there's no reason why we can't just let loose. If people don't like what we have to say they can always just turn the page. Otherwise, what are you going to do... ban all non-consensual stories? Also, it should be noted that there is a fair amount of fem-dom material posted here, whether girl-on-girl or female/male/transgender. Personally, I don't think the whole sadomasochistic mindset has as much to do with hate or hostility as it does with issues of alienation and relatedness, if that's the correct psychological term... a way of establishing a powerful sexual and emotional connection that may be difficult to achieve in other ways. But that's a discussion for another thread...

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Gee, teamster, you must really think I'm the big, evil Nazi to have read so much into this thread.

I didn't say anything about banning anything. I asked if perhaps some people were writing stories because they were angry and maybe writing helps them to have a therapeutic release.

And since this thread was started well over a year ago and nobody's started banning anything yet, I think it's safe to assume the practice won't be considered. So, take a step back, calm down and re-read the topic.

[leo9]

Unless a story filter is explicitly "what Tourguide (or whoever) likes", it's impossible to draw up criteria for what's not acceptable. No two people will agree exactly where the lines are.

I like non-con abuse, but only if the object is to break the victim to slavery (and it succeeds, but not too soon!) I like ingenious tortures and humiliations more than punch-and-kick violence. I can't stand situations that are too like real life, whether it's subordinates at work submitting to the boss to keep their jobs, or abused prisoners in Rwanda/Columbia/Iraq/wherever. But all these are just my tastes, and I couldn't claim they represented any kind of absolute principle.

The point of the story codes is to allow every style and subject on the Library, while letting people pick what they want to read. I can't think of a better system.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Unless a story filter is explicitly "what Tourguide (or whoever) likes", it's impossible to draw up criteria for what's not acceptable. No two people will agree exactly where the lines are.


One exists. The advanced search feature. Anyone can turn off the story codes they don't want to see before they even get a list of stories.

[Dr Mabeuse]

There's all sorts of violence. A slap can express as many things as a kiss, maybe more. And no doubt there are a lot of men who call themselves doms who are basically sadists and misogynists.

Why is rage so close to passion? Why is anger and threat often so sexually exciting? I've got a lot of theories about BDSM. On the one hand there's the obvious one that says that BDSM is an exaggeration of the usual sexual stereotypes of the aggressive male and the passive female. It's almost as if people who are into D/s have a need to act out these roles in the extreme. The man wants to dominate and control, the woman wants to be taken and controlled.

I have another theories too. Theories are easy. Whether they're true or not is another matter.

---dr.M.

[leo9]

.

Why is rage so close to passion? Why is anger and threat often so sexually exciting? I've got a lot of theories about BDSM. On the one hand there's the obvious one that says that BDSM is an exaggeration of the usual sexual stereotypes of the aggressive male and the passive female. It's almost as if people who are into D/s have a need to act out these roles in the extreme. The man wants to dominate and control, the woman wants to be taken and controlled.---dr.M.

At a science fiction convention recently I sat in on a light-hearted panel on the question "Who is the most erotic character in sf/fantasy?"

The interesting and unexpected conclusion was that all the characters people named and discussed had one common characteristic - or rather, one or other side of one characteristic. They were either totally innocent and vulnerable, or they were powerful and/or manipulative.

Everyone agreed that one's imagination could play it either way, fantasising being in control or being controled. But the panel and the audience (at least half of whom, by my guess, identified as vanilla) agreed that, judging by results, what they all found erotic is extreme power exchange relationships.

<wry smile> Who knew?

[Prodomguy]

Hi Friends,

I find consensual BDSM to be highly erotic. I invite you to check out my story called "Submission in Seattle" and you can judge for yourself.

Take Care,

Prodomguy (listed as author "MB")

[Neopadinski]

I fantasize constantly about breaking into a girl's house, or grabbing her off the street, tying her up and doing lots of things she probably wouldn't like to her. I've actually concocted plans on how to do it. But the only thing I don't consider is whether or not I would actually do it, because under no circumstances would I ever go through with it. If I ever met a rapist, or someone of that nature, I would attack them without a hesitation, with intentions of severely injuring them. Since my mid-teens, I always thought of myself as a hypocrite, because I fantasized about these things but hated the people who actually did them. Then, I came around to realize that it's fine, as long as it's fantasy. I've written only a couple stories where the hanky-panky is consensual, and those were written long ago, when I was first experimenting with sexual stories back when I was 14-15. None of my stories on the library feature consensual sexual acts.

[leo9]

I fantasize constantly about breaking into a girl's house, or grabbing her off the street, tying her up and doing lots of things she probably wouldn't like to her. I've actually concocted plans on how to do it. But the only thing I don't consider is whether or not I would actually do it, because under no circumstances would I ever go through with it.

Find the right girl, and you can do it as a shared fantasy. Last weekend I made arrangements with my new gf before I came to pick her up, and when she got into the car she acted like she was just getting a lift. I held a knife to her throat and told her to hold still and not fight, cuffed her hands behind her back with cuffs that were fastened to a chain behind the seat, then drove her to my place while she alternately begged to be let go and told me I'd never get away with this.

At the house I hung a cloak round her shoulders so I could lead her across the street to the door without anyone seeing her cuffed hands. I realised that if I'd prepared better, since there are so many Muslim women in this neighbourhood, I could have put robes and veil on her and she could have been completely roped and gagged underneath!

Once I had her in the house, I stripped her slowly by cutting her clothes off with the knife I had held her up with (thus settling any doubts she might have had about how sharp it was!) I'd arranged for her to wear stuff from the charity shop box which she could afford to lose; she said afterwards that having her clothes cut off her was the most exciting moment.

When I had inspected my prisoner enough, I tied her down to a chair with a nylon bottle brush under her crotch and let her squirm and beg me to let her off it while I explained that she was here to be broken as my slave, that I expected her to resist and I would enjoy it, but in the end she would belong utterly to me. I spent a long happy afternoon beating and torturing her into grovelling surrender and making her do things she had told me she'd never done and couldn't possibly do, and dropped her back at her place exhausted, bruised all over and glowing with happiness.

Like the old song says, "If you ain't got a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true?"

[longrover]

I'm thinking here, not sure where I'm going :confused: .

Thinking about sexual violence (for me) starts with Story of O. It was extremely violent for its time and the first bdsm story I read; I'm sure that's true for many here. Most commentary I've seen and heard of assumes that O was a victim, but she has always been a heroine to me because, like everyone who tries to understand pain and other dark subjects, she was a volunteer. She was an independent professional woman when they were vanishingly rare; her possible suicide never made sense to me. I think it was a sop thrown in to mollify shrinking violets and moralists. Don't let me get started :rolleyes: !

I think fictional violence and our reaction to it serves many purposes. Sometimes it's just a phantasy (Texas Chainsaw, Freddy Krueger, ... come to mind although I've never seen them), a Halloween spook. Sometimes there's something else going on (Dirty Harry), sometimes it's a cartoon (Terminator). Sometimes writers and readers use fictional violence to work on something that happened to them or that they're worried about.

We're a violent species that's tried for just over 200 years to convince ourselves that we love peace. That's 200 against millions of years. We are all capable of murder if the right (wrong?) circumstances occur.

Bottom line: Whether people who post here are as sane as anyone else or as whacko as Freddy Krueger, I'd rather have them writing and posting stories than acting out their dreams.

[Curtis]

Excuse me, but what suicide? That's not in my edition. And she couldn't've appeared in the sequel (Return To The Chateau) if she'd died in the first one.

[leo9]

Excuse me, but what suicide? That's not in my edition. And she couldn't've appeared in the sequel (Return To The Chateau) if she'd died in the first one.

There does exist an edition which ends with her killing herself because Sir Stephen leaves her.

While the edition is of questionable authenticity (and as you say, Reage implicitly disowned it by bringing O back for a sequel), the plot line isn't totally improbable from what I know of intense D/s relationships.

In the first place, the end of the relationship is hinted at in a line near the end, where O catches SS's eye at an unguarded moment and realises for the first time that he loves her. I know some old school Masters who got rid of a slave they fell in love with, on the basis that they couldn't be totally in control of her if they loved her.

And in the second place, I have myself had to counsel abandoned slaves - some of them strong, independent women just like O - who felt they had nothing left to live for without their Master. It happens.

[Martin]

Hi there,

I am new here but want to say something about the original question of this thread: Why so much nc and M/f?

I think it is biologically and psychological induced.
First of all sex is stimulated by certain hormones which also have a major part when aggressive (e.g. adrenaline).
Second the role-model of the man, mainly thru education but induced by nature, comes closer to the dominant side in stead of submissive side.
The female by her role loves to be conquered, play the submissive. In reality they sometimes feel frustrated about this behavior (feminist).
The idea to defend herself against aggression stimulates her hormone-production as well.
The man on the other side is celebrated for his conquest and feels good about it when successful and is by nature stimulated more eager to have sex.
So in my opinion aggression/violence can enhance sexual stimulation.

[longrover]

Excuse me, but what suicide? That's not in my edition. And she couldn't've appeared in the sequel (Return To The Chateau) if she'd died in the first one.
My copy (Grove Press, purchased about 1970, now yellowed and fallen apart) ends on page 199. Page 201 (if it were numbered) offers two possible continuations. The text on that page is in italics, suggesting to me that an editor added it:

" In a final chapter, which has been suppressed, O returned to Roissy, where she was abandoned by Sir Stephen.

" There exists a second ending to the story of O, according to which O, seeing that Sir Stephen was about to leave her, said she would prefer to die. Sir Stephen gave her his consent."

I think the first paragraph points to "Return to the Chateau" and, eventually, New O. The second suggests suicide and also provides a hook for a nicely done recent story on this site; unfortunately I do not have its title or author at hand.

I doubt that Reage/Aury authorized the suicide suggestion, making it an editorial sop to romantics and moralists.

[Riptieron]

I noticed that many stories appearing in the library seem geared more toward wanton violence, mostly toward women, and non-consensual sex. I was wondering a little about this and some of the ramifications of this.

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman? Are the stories written by people that have lived these fantasies out and look to do so again? Perhaps they are written to satiate the primal sexual desire before they actually act the fantasy out. Perhaps I am reading way too much into things, but I'm tired and it seemed like a good line of thought at the time.

Are men Angry towards women? Humm- BDSM_Tourguide posted a very good question about the psychology of men, and picked up on a very important detail about a great many of the stories that I have read on this (among other) forums. Snuff stories is another extension of this trend to “dominate” women in the storyline. I posed the question to myself while pondering this and found myself saying, “I want to believe there is a woman that secretly desires this to happen to her- and WANTS this to befall her." My thinking it is ok to be abusive under a certain context makes a role play of my own life’s flawed and seemingly unloved and shunned behavior. Then it occurs to me that this is not just a fantasy but an extension of my need to be accepted as whole, no matter my flaws. *snaps back into reality* I have only to exaggerate this into a fantasy environment and the ensuing rape of a young woman becomes a highly erotic ballet of my inner yearnings for love. Wheh, I need a step ladder to get out of this hole!

-RIP

[Dr Mabeuse]

There's violence and then there's violence. I think there's a definite difference between the symbolic violence practiced in BDSM and actual physical violence against women. For instance, a whipping or spanking can be arousing, but if you get off on hitting women in the face or punching them in the stomach, then I've got to think there's something wrong with you.

Certainly there's pain involved in BDSM, but it's rarely administered in anger. In fact, all the whips and chains and costumes seem to be designed to blunt any signs of anger and keep the violence within certain acceptable bounds. The classic Dom is more or less cold and calculating. He's not a guy who flies into violent rages.

That's not to say that there aren't quite a few hardcore misogynists and even psychopaths who hide behind the BDSM label, but you don't have to be a sadist to enjoy the symbolic passion of BDSM. You don;t even have to be into violence.

---dr.M.

[Ruby]

...You don't even have to be into violence.

---dr.M.

Or pain for that matter.

Yet based on the number of stories with snuff / extreme / heavy and nc story codes, there are certainly a number of folks who enjoy writing and reading about it. I find that many of the stories here can be easily classified as horror.

I asked if perhaps some people were writing stories because they were angry and maybe writing helps them to have a therapeutic release. - TJ

To answer your question - for me, yes. I began writing BDSM vampire themed novels a few years ago when I was having a very tough time with a verbally abusive client. Instead of writing a journal, I used my time to write stories about characters I'd like to see and wicked characters that should be punished. Punishing the wicked can be great fun.

Am I angry? Not anymore. Was I? You bet.
Writing is a great way to explore my own emotions as I experience life through the eyes of my characters.

[ProjectEuropa]

[Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman?.[/COLOR]

I read around ten stories, then submited four of my own, I think. One where the woman is violent towards a male. One where women hold a male captive and two rather comic stories. I read some more stories posted on the site and thought yipes! I need less story and more sex and violence, especially towards women so I went and wrote a sex and violence one. I had to admit it I found the experience rather cathartic, though the writing not as good or the plot very imaginative. Was it against a specific woman? Hmm At this point in my life I have several who would gladly cut my balls off. I'm betting if I get a review I bet it will be on that one when it is posted.

REVELATION! I have just realised that most of my stories have strong, if not dominant female characters in them! Perhaps that's telling me something! Jesus I hope not as I have been climbing the wrong ladder all my life!

[jaeangel]

I write to let off steam.
Basically, I have issues left from my childhood and adolescence (and even further still) that I'm only just now realizing affects practically everything I do. So a lot of my writing (fanfic, mostly) tends to deal with some of those issues, as if by writing out what happened in a fictional setting helps me come to grips with what happened to me.Some of my readers have noticed a continuing theme of abuse and non-consensual rape in my stories; that's because those things happened, and writing about those events and the aftermath of them, helps me work out some of my own unresolved issues. By having a fictional character deal witht he aftermath of such events, i can find my own closure with what happened to me. It's an odd sort of therapy for me.
And it desn't hurt that my writing style seems to be popular with a lot of people, and the sympathy they feel towards my character(s) feels like it transfers to me. So I get the support and care that I didn't get when I was going through my own ordeals, and it helps. So yes, writing for me is therapy of a sort.

[Alex Bragi]

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman?


Maybe, maybe not.

Certainly some people do write for release and/or therapy - that’s why many people like to keep private diaries.

I feel that ‘angry authors’ might be more likely to use their emotion as tool, rather than harbour it as motivation.

Amatuer writers of fiction, particularly, have their egos to feed. We crave attention, for our efforts – it’s just human nature. And, we write because we believe our fantasies are something others will enjoy.

I think, too, in an odd kind of way it gives us a certain feeling of immortality. We hope that long after we are gone, our words will remain, and for a few lucky and talented ones, they actually do.

:)

[tswd45]

I've just posted a story titled 'Karmals' slavery part 1'. I wrote this story specifically at the request of a woman named Karmal. It seems terribly violent to me but she seemed to like it. I'm not sure what to make of it.
I noticed that many stories appearing in the library seem geared more toward wanton violence, mostly toward women, and non-consensual sex. I was wondering a little about this and some of the ramifications of this.

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman? Are the stories written by people that have lived these fantasies out and look to do so again? Perhaps they are written to satiate the primal sexual desire before they actually act the fantasy out. Perhaps I am reading way too much into things, but I'm tired and it seemed like a good line of thought at the time.

I consider myself to be very tolerant of others. In fact, I am more tolerant of individuals than I am of cultures. Therefore, I understand that these stories are just stories. Fantasies and musings from minds possibly as twisted and corrupt as my own. So, i refuse to pass judgement on what a person writes. It is, after all, the actiions that speak louder than words.

At any rate, it was a passing musing that I had noticed. I thought, perhaps, that there would be more educational articles and stories than the presence of pure violence.

And don't get me wrong, please. Occasionally, I get in just the right mood for some good, old-fashioned violence. Just not all the time. So, I ask the good people here if they could please try to keep the perspective of the website in mind when contributing their material.

Thanks.

[emma_sub]

i can only respond to this point on a personal level, a submissive female one.

i personally believe that we need to consider intention. There is a difference between receiving violence and receiving pain. Violence is never pleasant to receive, pain can be under certain circumstances. There is also a difference between a Dominant and a sadist, a difference between wanting to be taken and controlled and wanting to be tortured.

If we are looking at ‘power exchange relationships’ then the last word needs attention too. There is undoubtedly a relationship between torturer and victim, but if it is non-consensual violence then it is a very limited relationship.

If the intention of the Dominant is to use pain to increase pleasure or arousal in the submissive then the pain is being used positively for both parties. If the intention is for pleasure or arousal to be gained by only one party i fail to see it as anything other than selfish behaviour lacking in sensitivity. Yes, the best Dominants are sensitive.

There is also the question of there being a difference between fantasy and reality. Surely if one is aroused by the fantasy of extreme violence then it actually must effect the way that one looks upon women (or submissives) in real life too.

Personally i do not believe being a submissive equates with receiving violence.

emma_sub

[longrover]

Emma's points are at the heart of most bdsm discussions and I agree with her. Consent may be within a couple or group, involve a (nonbinding in reality) contract, or rely on another mechanism but it provides the easiest "cover" for arousal in the face of another's pain.

Some nonconsensual stories work for me, though, and there is a category of nonconsensual stories I have not seen discussed.

First the exceptions.

Some stories are set in times and places where the victims' consent could not be an issue. Stories based on historical or hypothetical societies (Roman treatment of slaves and war prisoners; tyrannical governments' treatment of "out groups," spies, etc.; unpleasant future societies) may be painful to read, but their violence is "in bounds" in their settings. Several stories on this site use such designs and I find some of them thought provoking if not arousing.

Some stories are partly nonconsensual (sfmaster's "Janet" stories and the late, great Leviticus' "Valley" stories), but they allow the (usually remote) possibility that society will apprehend the sadistic torturers. Leviticus even brought the FBI into some of his stories (partly) for that purpose. This group shares many features of mystery, thriller, and other mainstream stories.


I have a bigger problem with stories set in societies whose authority to intervene is prevented by authorial design.

The first example is "Her New World," also by Leviticus. An entirely consensual group that wishes to colonize an uninhabited planet has no one with some skills needed to make the trip. They trick a woman who has the skills into accompanying them and then treat her the same as those who consented. (Note: This is not a cheap shot at a dead man. I admire his other work and the site that continues to operate in his name. We had a fairly lenghthy exchange about my reaction on the forum the site had for a while, ending with an agreement to disagree.)

Two other examples are by Crimson Dragon ("Time Out of Time" and "Dawn of Time"). A man learns to operate on two time lines, the "real" line and one where he is the only person able to move around. He brings selected women into "his" time line to bind, whip, etc. although there is little explicit sex and no "rape."

The villains in such storie are beyond even the potential reach of society. The victms have no way out, so their acceptance is merely a defense mechanism. No matter how well written ("Her New World" is up to Leviticus' usual high standards), no matter how much the victims seem to submit happily, such stories are over the line for me.

What do you think?


(Note: sfmaster's "Janet" stories are on this site. Leviticus' stories are on the "Writings of Leviticus" site. Crimson Dragon's stories are on his ASSTR pages.)

[ProjectEuropa]

[QUOTE=longrover]
What do you think?
QUOTE]

I agree with you. The context of the story is of vital importance. If a story is psychopatic then it needs to sit in that context and be acknowledged by the author that s/he is exploring the world of a psychopath. I find nothing arousing or rewarding in a story that is free from moral or social restraint. Characters set free to do whatever they want at will, to me is not a story, it is an author out of control of the craft they are trying to master.

Myself, I find very few stories arousing. I find arousal in the psychology of a story rather than in the depicting of graphic sex. I don't need a depiction of a woman bent over and a man pumping away at her. I want to know the psychology and the motivations that brought the characters to such a point. I want to understand and empathise or be disgusted or provoked by them.

It is quite legitimate for a character to get away free with their crimes (which is what non consensual behaviour is) but I think the reader should be left with a feeling of disgust in them but that requires the author to set moral bounds which is where I came in.

[Alex Bragi]

sub emma,

All I can say in response to your posting is, yes, yes, yes, and I agree completely.

You have an excellent insight on this topic.

Btw, I see you have your private messaging block, were you aware of this?



Some stories are set in times and places where the victims' consent could not be an issue. … Several stories on this site use such designs and I find some of them thought provoking if not arousing.

I read one just the other day. The torturers were not apprehended and it didn’t have a happy ending. I don’t begin to understand the warped and twisted motivation I had to keep reading it. I didn’t ‘enjoy’ it, but it was thought provoking for sure, for hours later I was thinking, “What if…?”


I find nothing arousing or rewarding in a story that is free from moral or social restraint. Characters set free to do whatever they want at will, to me is not a story, it is an author out of control of the craft they are trying to master.

Yes, it’s kind of interesting that people enjoy stories where the characters are "…free from moral or social restraint" and "…set free to do whatever they want at will.." so long as they’re reprimanded, or deal with, before the story ends. We love to hate these characters. We feel a vicarious relief and satisfaction when they get what, we believe, they deserve.


...I find arousal in the psychology of a story rather than in the depicting of graphic sex….

Well, now, here’s a fetish I’m sure none of us has ever heard of before. *gg* Just, kidding! It’s really all a matter of taste, isn’t it? Maybe, I’m a ‘greedy’ reader—I want both when I read erotica. Although, I do understand what you mean. Some of the hottest stories I’ve read, at this site, have been so cleverly subtle sexually that I found myself getting aroused long before the ‘fun’ had even started.

[ProjectEuropa]

It’s really all a matter of taste, isn’t it?


For sure! I'm not condemning people for having different tastes than mine and I can fully understand the enjoyment of graphic sex. When I am turned on by it, boy! I just want to explode!

However I find very little graphic sex that does that too me. I've analysed this ad infinitum and I think the problem is, that most writers and artists of erotica tend to illustrate graphic sex rather than live it and so the graphic sex appears detached. Observing sex in an objective manner reduces it to a very silly jig. If the author/artist is radiating their own desires, that tends to permeate through to me.

Maybe I'm just talking a lot of bullshit but I'm trying.

[Mobius]

For all that is holly please authors never use the word Cunny in reference to a womance vagina.

I cant stand the word cunny it just drive me nuts

I would much prefer

Cunt
Vagina
Beaver
love Vally
inner core
molten vally
woo hoo
but never cunny

[Dr Mabeuse]

However I find very little graphic sex that does that too me. I've analysed this ad infinitum and I think the problem is, that most writers and artists of erotica tend to illustrate graphic sex rather than live it and so the graphic sex appears detached. Observing sex in an objective manner reduces it to a very silly jig. If the author/artist is radiating their own desires, that tends to permeate through to me.

Maybe I'm just talking a lot of bullshit but I'm trying.

As a writer, I've found that my stuff has tended to get more internalized and subjective as time goes by, and I've come to believe that the sexiest stuff always happens inside people's heads. I think that when we read objectified, detatched BDSM -- the kind of stuff where the author just gives you an objective description of what was done -- we miss out on seeing the character's feelings and reactions and thereby miss out on some of the juiciest stuff.

Part of the problem is that, to a lot of writers, the sub's feelings aren't of any interest. They tend to objectify her and use her as a sexual toy, so the characters come across as flat and basically pretty dull. The whle experience feels remote and unreal. You can still get good porn that way, but the reader has to use their imagination to supply the missing thoughts and feelings, doing the job the author should have done.

Anyone who's fooled around with BDSM knows something of the incredible intensity of feeling that goes on, and it just seems like such a waste to ignore it. Like I said, that's some of the sexiest stuff.

---dr.M.

[Alex Bragi]

ProjectEuropa, Doc,

What's exactly is too much graphic sex? How much detail is too much? Shouldn't some of it at least be left to the reader's warped imagination?

I think one of you ought to start a new thread on this. It's an excellent topic for a fresh discussion.

I'm ticking over already.

Alex :)