Is loving sadism an oxymoron?

[Spitman]

Years ago in B&D there was a lot of emphasis on 'love bondage', and I liked that. Love is unselfish, isn't it, and so is surrender, and so is pleasing a submissive lover. So it can all fit together.

D/S is based on rules, and mutual respect, and complementary needs, and is also perfectly consistent with a loving relationship.

What has always seemed to me selfish was the sadism part of S&M. The most dangerous partner, it seemed to me, was a sadistic dominant, as it appeared that a sadist would always put his own gratification first, and was likely to get carried away, beyond any previously agreed limits.

If the partner is genuinely masochistic though, is sadism necessarily selfish? Or can it be genuinely loving? If it is loving, is it genuinely still sadistic? It seems to me that love and sadism may be mutually exclusive, in which case loving sadism is an oxymoron. What do you think?

[Jones, Nikka]

I believe in the possibility of someone being both loving and sadistic. My boyfriend derives enormous pleasure from subjecting me to painful treatment. That part of his personality is clearly sadistic. I know also that he would also enjoy torturing somebody else so his sadistic impulses are not triggered just by me.

But here is the difference. He also loves me. His sadistic pleasure is enhanced and at the same time limited, I guess, by the pleasure he gets from loving me. That is why he never engages in bdsm activities (as a dom) with other women.

And the ultimate proof that his sadism is not selfish and that he loves me is the very fact that he does inflict pain and suffering upon me. If he did not love me he would do the only truly sadistic thing you can inflict on a masochist like me: Nothing.
So by Spitman's definition yes, Loving Sadism is an oxymoron. But Sadistic Loving is not.

[Spitman]

Very nice answer, Nikka

It reminds me of the masochist who liked to take a cold shower every morning, so she took a hot one. I understand perfectly.

[WANDA's_toy]

Yup, nice and very interesting ...

I had a similar thought at first, immedietly thinking of this old joke where the Masochist begs "please hurt me, hurt me" and the Sadist replies "No way!"...

Giving it deeper consideration I think the "danger-level" you mentioned may depend directly on the Sadism-level. I mean, When the Sadist was 100% sadistic there is this possibility he/she could indeed be selfish only. Whatever his/her reaction to a begging masochistic, it could then be motivated by the Sadist's selfishness only (simply not caring what the masochist wants). This could lead to anything from inflicting pain or indeed not inflicting any pain at all. Could even go as far as turning away from the masochist (expel him/her) completely.
In this case I would think the sadism-level had really drawn the Sadist as far away as could be from being loving towards the masochistic partner.
While even this extrem example could outwardly also take place when the Sadist was a rather "loving Sadist" (not just a lovely one ;) ) , this would -to me- indicate that he/she is not a 100% (selfish) sadist but rather someone who allows the partner to limit him...
...or- different aspect to it: What about responsibility?
As the Sadist in such relationship you are the one taking on all that responibility, right? While the masochistic part (depending on the level of his/her masochism) might want to give up all of it. So once you have all this responibility but you "don't care" about your masochistic partner, you might let yourself drift into some space where you really care for yourself only - you would hence act totally irresonsible and then be that dangerous type, the non loving sadist. On the other side if you'd act responsible you'd perhaps let the sadism within yourself be limeted, if it was for the sake of your partner only.
Brings me yet to another aspect: What about the masochist's sphere and his/her selfishness?
- If you'd think this is off topic, stop me, Spitman -
But the masochist maybe selfish while giving up all responisbilities whatsoever and by doing so climb on a masochistic level that makes him/her leave the spectrum of being "loving" in his relationship to the sadist...
Thinking about it, actually I think the Masochist in S/M could be the dangerous/selfish part (again depending on the level). He/she could actually drift off so far into the masochistic space that it would become very dangerous if he/she was not stopped (by a loving and responsible S-partner)

Also I think there is this kind of natural difference between the two sides of S/M: The S always need somebody else, really. So whatever he/she does has effect on someone else. While the M perhaps can exploit his way without somebody else, alone if only his mind ticks that extreme way (getting kicked by being expelled, left alone etc.), and the M doesn't need to act and dish out anything he/she can "just recieve" (or again, not recieve at all if that's what it takes), the effect will be on him/herself...

Hope this makes sense to you all. (and I hope it makes sense at all, too)

(you know, you gotta consider that English is NOT my native Language - so, sometimes I do screw up on it. Give me credit for trying though, please) ;)

WT

[Spitman]

Very interesting points, and your English is fine. We all mis-key now and again.

[slavelucy]

i think that Nikka answers this beautifully and pretty much says roughly what i wanted to say in response to this anyway.

All i will add though is that i think it is a shame that the term 'sadistic' is so often linked to extremely negative people/issues (i.e. murderers, rapists etc)....because, certainly all the people with whom i have had contact with, who are sadistic, couldn't have hurt someone who seriously didn't want to be hurt, on some level....this hence leads back to the notion of the cruelest thing to do to a masochist, is to refuse to hurt or control them... i think that this ultimately leads to loving sadistically as opposed to hurting people willy nilly for one's own gratification.

sl

[Spitman]

Thank you, slavelucy

[leo9]

Sadism refers to enjoying someone's pain. Nothing in there about selfishness. It's only in a vanilla context that sadism is implicitly selfish.

I am a loving sadist. If I can make someone I care about happy by beating and torturing hir into a sobbing heap on the floor, my life is perfect.

In the strict definition an "oxymoron" is not a contradiction in terms but an =apparent= contradiction that reveals a deeper truth. (As in "make haste slowly".) So yes, "loving sadism" is an oxymoron, but it's not a contradiction.