"Barely Submissive"- A Question of Being [Archive]

tessa

07-29-2007, 07:54 PM

So, Red and I were talking and she brought this term to my attention- "barely submissive". I understood instantly what she meant by it. We seem to understand each other really well on things such as this. And on things like riding a horse down a trail through the woods and that a Ruby Relaxer is the best cocktail on the planet. :)

For us, 'barely submissive' means that we struggle within our submission. We are strong-willed, passionately opinionated women. We think (sometimes too much) about what it is to actually submit, what it means to us and for us. We understand the depths to which our submission could take us (and the Doms we love), but we are scared out of our hearts and minds about where that might leave us. We are scared because we struggle so much with trusting others and trusting ourselves. Life plays a mean hand sometimes and it has affected how we relate to others and how we perceive ourselves. We honestly want to seek those depths, but the lack of trust holds us back from searching. We know, deep down and true, that we can be so much more in our submission than just "barely". But it takes so much effort and energy to deal with the baggage we drag along with us that it can be an overwhelming task to undertake, for ourselves and for our Doms. And sometimes, because we are so strong-willed and scared and can put on a "pretty face" to hide behind, our 'barely submissive' attitude is seen as the sum total of who we really are and all we can really ever be.

Our conversation about it all made me think even more. Are we stuck at 'barely submissive'? Is that as far as we can ever hope to go? Is there a way, ways even, that we can step out of this almost-there box and be more of what we dream we can be? Is it possible to be shown the way out of "barely" and led towards that beautiful abyss of total submission? Is it worth the struggle of becoming or do we just give up and accept the place we are, even if it's not where we want to be?

I am placing this out there for everyone, anyone, who can shed some light on this darkness we find ourselves in at times.

Thanks.

:wave:

ps. Red didnt' know I was posting this. I included her presence here because of our discussion and because it helped make me feel not so alone. :o

Sir_Russell

07-29-2007, 08:26 PM

That describes morgan to a tee. So let me give it to you from a Dom/Master point of view.

First, I grew quickly tired of subs that were no challenge and very docile. Where is the challenge in that and where is the joy and honor of seeing someone you love work so very hard to be what both of you want her to be. morgan wants to be the best slave ever for me and for her with her strength, intelligence, and trust issues that is quite the dream.

Second, for the Dom a challenge is welcome, why else would we call it training. Know that we will be there on your bad days, even if you hurt us with your words and actions because we know how hard what you do for us is. Again those that are docile are fine for some but not for me.

jeanne

07-29-2007, 09:53 PM

For us, 'barely submissive' means that we struggle within our submission. We are strong-willed, passionately opinionated women. We think (sometimes too much) about what it is to actually submit, what it means to us and for us. We understand the depths to which our submission could take us (and the Doms we love), but we are scared out of our hearts and minds about where that might leave us. We are scared because we struggle so much with trusting others and trusting ourselves. Life plays a mean hand sometimes and it has affected how we relate to others and how we perceive ourselves. We honestly want to seek those depths, but the lack of trust holds us back from searching. We know, deep down and true, that we can be so much more in our submission than just "barely". But it takes so much effort and energy to deal with the baggage we drag along with us that it can be an overwhelming task to undertake, for ourselves and for our Doms. And sometimes, because we are so strong-willed and scared and can put on a "pretty face" to hide behind, our 'barely submissive' attitude is seen as the sum total of who we really are and all we can really ever be.

For me, my baggage is mine to deal with. And I have. I never would have been able to take the first step in this life (admitting that I actually want it) without first getting rid of most of the rocks in the sack that I chose to carry on my back for a long (too long) time. Life is too, too short to let the past and my previous untrusting attitude get in the way. My advice to anyone dealing with past events or attitudes rearing their ugly heads: take action and deal with it. Sometimes that means talking it out, sometimes professional help, sometimes just letting go of it - no longer giving the past power to control my present and future.

I'm afraid that I make this sound easy and simple - it isn't. It's hard work and even more worthwhile because it isn't easy. But when you succeed at letting go of internal blocks to happiness, you know you've really accomplished something vitally important. And the sense of peace and harmony you'll feel is worth every minute of emotional pain and discomfort you had to go through to reach that point.

Our conversation about it all made me think even more. Are we stuck at 'barely submissive'? Is that as far as we can ever hope to go? Is there a way, ways even, that we can step out of this almost-there box and be more of what we dream we can be? Is it possible to be shown the way out of "barely" and led towards that beautiful abyss of total submission? Is it worth the struggle of becoming or do we just give up and accept the place we are, even if it's not where we want to be?

No, it isn't as far as you can hope to go. Here's how I've begun to be more of what I dream: give in. Not give up, just give in. Give in to the reality that some days the only way I get to demonstrate my submissiveness to him is by making him a drink, cooking supper, asking about his day and being there for him to turn to in the night. No play, no ritual, no BDSM stuff to it. But, always be ready, willing, encouraging, communicating and most importantly, listening. I miss the gems of hope and dominance and love that I'm so hungrily seeking when I'm just nodding my head and saying "Uh huh" while I think of other things.

Giving up and accepting are two different things to me. When I give up, I quit trying - I admit defeat. Not something I want to ever do. When I accept, however, I'm admitting that right now my life is the way it is supposed to be. Not the way I would necessarily choose, but the way it is. Period. After accepting, I get to look at what I can do to bring it closer to my ideal. The opposite of defeat!

tessa, you know that I have struggled with the pace that my husband has set in our exploration of D/s and integration of same into our life. My impatience and desire for more, more, more have run into the realities of time and his chosen route. But I am truly beginning to believe (and so is he), deep in my heart and soul, that what we are building will last the rest of our lives - that when I'm 80 years old and he calls me to him in that certain tone of voice, I'll still get that sense of calm excitement inside and begin to get wet.

Finally, (yes, finally!), it's worth the struggle and the struggle is what makes it challenging and interesting and, quite frankly, an amazing turn-on.

jeanne :hihi:

TomOfSweden

07-30-2007, 01:33 AM

I could rant on all day about this, but I'll try not to. I think it's important to figure out what it is you want from a Master/Mistress and then only accept that. If you have trouble trusting a Master then break up and move on.

If the problem is you, (ie nobody will ever earn your trust) then just go for it. Take the plunge even if you are scared, (under the condition that you think you have found a good one, bad doms are a dime a dozen). It's better to have a heart broken in a thousand bits repeatedly than never. It's also very educational. It's good to get all those rose tinted teenage illusions of relationships banished from the system early. Maybe it isn't baggage. Maybe it's reality poking it's nasty finger on your forehead.

I've been involved with plenty of submissives and I could spend weeks putting them into carefully crafted categories. People are submissive of a large variety of reasons, (as are dominants) so it's very hard to come up with generalised sweeping advice that works for all subs. But being motivated by fear is always bad.

margaret

07-30-2007, 06:17 AM

Tessa, thank you for posting this - you described me almost exactly, and it's nice to know that other people are feeling this way.

^firefly^

07-30-2007, 09:19 AM

tessa,

I hear you, and completely understand.

When I was younger, I was clay. Easily molded. I didn't know who I was, and I was forever trying to be what everyone around me wanted me to be.

It never works. I'm older, and (I'd like to hope) a little wiser. I'm not as malleable. I have opinions of my own. I can be stubborn. I've learned (the hard way) that I have to cling to who I am, and what I want. If that makes me less "submissive" in some eyes, well, that's their opinion.

I don't think you are "barely submissive". I think you are "realistically submissive". I'd love to be like some of the subs/slaves in stories that I've read (and written) and be able to let go like that *snaps fingers* and submit to his every whim and desire, whenever, whereever. But I'm not like that. I have a real life. The munchkins need me. The house gets messy. I get overwhelmed, or sick, or just plain distracted.

I'm not always willing (or able) to do whatever pleases him. Sometimes I'm scared to try something new, or just plain tired. But everytime I catch myself "putting it off", I remind myself: "This is what you wanted. Take it."

I was once told "Nothing worthwhile is easy; nothing easy is worthwhile." And it's true...if it was so easy, would the rewards be as "worth it"? Not for me, at any rate, and I think, not for him either...

*hugs tessa* I love you, just the way you are! Forgive me if I rambled, or missed the point entirely!

Dorkalicious

07-30-2007, 10:08 AM

Wow, tessa...once again -- A thank you for posting this. I was beginning to wonder, considering the different perspectives on subs.

I myself am pretty spirited. Sometimes I wonder if I am too spirited. Requiem seems to be perfectly fine with it. He's okay with the fact that I am independent, and have my own views and opinions, not to mention my own life. But even in play, I fight back a little... Sometimes more than others.

firefly, I think you pinned it with "Realistically Submissive". :)

Rhabbi

07-30-2007, 10:52 AM

tessa,

I see this a lot. Submission is trained out of you by the culture, this does not mean that you are barely submissive, it just means you have not found the proper person to submit to.

I am also with Russell in that a challenge is a lot more fun for me than a simple surrender. If we go back and forth a bit a sub and I can learn a lot more about each other than if I simply walk up and she does whatever I want. The process of training is one of learning about each other so that we know the strengths and weaknesses we have and forge us into a complete whole, stronger than the parts.

I prefer a barely submissive woman to a door mat. If I wanted a doormat I would go to Home Depot.

Flaming_Redhead

07-30-2007, 11:59 AM

Are we stuck at 'barely submissive'? Is that as far as we can ever hope to go? Is there a way, ways even, that we can step out of this almost-there box and be more of what we dream we can be? Is it possible to be shown the way out of "barely" and led towards that beautiful abyss of total submission? Is it worth the struggle of becoming or do we just give up and accept the place we are, even if it's not where we want to be?

This conversation with tessa came about because of Lord Hemloc's personal ad. He was looking for a slave which I have never considered myself to be. I've never wanted to be a slave due to some negative feelings about the whole idea of just giving in completely, and if I take an honest look at myself, I'm barely even submissive. However, upon reading the ad, it touched something way down deep in my soul. The problem is that deep inside my soul there's a hole you don't wanna see. It's an ugly, foul, black abyss where madness rules, and if I listen to the whispers of the demons that dwell down there for very long, I begin to long for death to come and take me. This madness interferes with my need to submit, and it is definitely a need because when dominance is withheld from me I am greatly frustrated and unhappy. I imagine this is quite confusing to my dominant since I resist him at every opportunity. Why? I've been thinking about it for a long time, and I believe it's due to absolute terror. I can remember when just the thought of being collared would almost send me into a panic attack, but I still kept searching...my need driving me onward in spite of the fear. When I read "Story of O" based on a friend's recommendation, I thought it was very erotic, but I was troubled for O. I was angry with her each time she gave in to the demands of Rene who obviously didn't love her at all. I was angry because I'm also guilty of having let myself be used by people who didn't deserve to lick the bottom of my shoes. I was hopeful about Sir Stephen, only to discover that my worst fears were realized in the end. I have trust and abandonment issues for good reason, and the book echoes the questions that I ask myself. If I do everything he wants, will he love me or despise me? Does he love me, or is he using my need to be loved and accepted to manipulate me as has happened throughout my life? What if I surrender myself completely to his will only to be abandoned when he tires of me? That right there would be the death of me for sure because I don't think I could ever give myself to someone like that more than once. Other questions also continue to nag me. What if I am never able to surrender? What if no one is willing or able to break through? I will be a very miserable person since I can't go back to vanilla. *sigh* I've resolved to keep trying. It's the only choice I have, really. Some progress is being made though not as much as I would like, so I'm not only struggling with disappointing him but also myself. It definitely helps to have a kindred spirit to talk to while drinking a Ruby Relaxer and daydreaming about riding...um....horses.

tessa, we are a team, so you are not alone! *hugs* Now, we need to think of an appropriate name for our team and get some cute uniforms, preferably something with a very short skirt and maybe some of those new-fangled thingies you call "panties."

Dorkalicious

07-30-2007, 12:16 PM

I think it really does take finding that "one" to submit to. Though I "fight" Requiem, I don't struggle nearly as much as I did before (other relationships*). Being under his complete control, being able to give him that much trust... It's an amazing feeling. He hasn't abused it at all, and though we have a lot of the relationship to go (At least I would love to believe so :) ) I doubt he ever will.

It's amazing to think about bdsm relationships. I've been finding that they are actually just like vanilla, with a different perspective.

-Finding "the one"
-Trust
-Communication
-Responsibility
-Give and Take

Honestly, what is the difference?

*Could honestly be that he has a genuine interest in it too

Oh dear....I've gone on a tangent, haven't I? :o

Slave Kitty Sivesh

07-30-2007, 12:28 PM

I agree with your post tessa and Understand where you are coming from. And I think finding the right person to sumit to is a big thing. I am currently in training now with my master, and I struggle with it because I am strong willed, and out in the real world I like to be in control (i.e. with my job). But I want to be the best slave I can for her, and I know I am capable. It just takes work on both our parts

tessa

07-30-2007, 12:56 PM

Taking this on a response by response basis. All this feedback is just incredible! Thank you all!

Sir Russell, my sincere appreciation to you for what you said. You allow us to see that the challenge we don't necessarily want to be but are anyway is worth the effort and energy. You said it just right with this:

a challenge is welcome, why else would we call it training. Know that we will be there on your bad days, even if you hurt us with your words and actions because we know how hard what you do for us is.
Thank you for understanding.

My advice to anyone dealing with past events or attitudes rearing their ugly heads: take action and deal with it.
jeanne, outstanding advice. I appreciate it so much from you because of the meaning and insight you surround that advice in. You know the struggle. And there's been a shift in paradigm due to your differentiation between "give up" and "accepting". Thank you for opening my mind to the idea of what those terms can mean. And just thank you for all you said. Every word you put there is a bright light for me. ~hugs you tight~

Tom, I love how you cut straight through to the bone and expose all the rawness. I learn from you, whether it's discussing gay marriage or discussing the essentials of D/s. And I'll go ahead and say it...you're right. Fear shouldn't rule us. Without the risk, one gains nothing but regret. Thanks for being so direct about what is and isn't effective. Makes so much sense.

margaret, Red was my inspiration for the thoughts you see here. And because of you being here with us, I feel even less alone. ~hugs~

Oh firefly, you didn't ramble and you certainly didn't miss the point. Your words- "realistically submissive", "This is what you wanted. Take it.", "cling to who I am"- this and all the rest, you just knew what and how to say it so that it rang true for me. Thank you for that.

D-lish, Requiem, in my opinion, is one seriously fortunate Dom. I'm glad there's not one set of rules on just who we are and who we can become. I'm very happy for you. :)

The process of training is one of learning about each other so that we know the strengths and weaknesses we have and forge us into a complete whole, stronger than the parts.
Well said, Rhabbi. Learning each other is the key.

I swear, Red, you took thoughts right out of my mind and posted them here. And yes, amazing! :p Hey, as long as we're struggling together, right? ~huggles~

Yep, a team. But I can't believe you said anything about those "panties" thingees. Still, under a very short skirt, if they were just the right kind, they might be kinda cute. A new experience, at least. ;)

tessa

07-30-2007, 12:58 PM

But I want to be the best slave I can, and I know I am capable. It just takes work on both our parts

What a wonderful truth to have and to share. Thank you! :)

Beswitchingly Positive

07-30-2007, 03:22 PM

tessa,

I see this a lot. Submission is trained out of you by the culture, this does not mean that you are barely submissive, it just means you have not found the proper person to submit to.

I have to say there was a time that I never would have agreed with this.

Rhabbi, I have to tell you, now, I think you are right Sir!

I think this is right on, for me anyway. I have always longed for a proper man to submit to, loved the idea of letting go in this way and wondered so many times if it was even possible for me (being a strong willed creature) to do so. I always knew he was out there. I met "Him" a couple of times, but timing was bad in some way, circumstance outside the bedroom, whatever it was it just did not work out to a level past "barely submissive."

Luckily, I have met a man who, somehow, (I think it has to do with our chemistry togther, and lucky timing...) he has inspired me to submit. I found the proper person to submit to at the proper time, not just on an intellectual and physical level, but completely, with my entire heart.

I am also with Russell in that a challenge is a lot more fun than a simple surrender. If we go back and forth a bit a sub and I can learn a lot more about each other than if I simply walk up and she does whatever I want. The process of training is one of learning about each other so that we know the strengths and weaknesses we have and forge us into a complete whole, stronger than the parts.

I prefer a barely submissive woman to a door mat. If I wanted a doormat I would go to Home Depot.

Excitement invloves tension, resistance, friction. I understand the mental shift, the deeper feeling of being able to let go.

I can give Him the power, let him do the deciding, and willingly follow his wishes...not that I never resist, not that I have no ideas of my own...he is growing to expect certain, hmm, creative acquiescence.

If he did all I want when I want it, well, it would get predictable. I would not want a predictable Dom. Blah.

The amazing feeling is caring oh so much that he gets what He wants from me. When I know he is happy with me, this is when my deep submissive need is most satisfyed. The whole point of it, His happiness satisfies me and I am His.

Flip the switch.

Ok, on the other side, the object of my desire to dominate, currently a beautiful, tragically unsure woman I know...if she was not so in need of direction, we would not have the dynamic we have. She might submit to me sexually, eventually. We have repeatedly discussed this, but we both know it is a big step. In the meantime, I am helping her fix some things in her life, work on some of her baggage. How will she know what she wants until she is less burdened in herself? When she is more stable, then maybe, if she still is asking me for sex...funny, I feel desire for her, but it evaporates because she is not disciplined enough in her mind. I want to know she is happy enough with herself to really know what she wants, and if it is me, well, as long as it is okay with the Man...

I am happy with her as we are because I love her, not the idea of her doing something in particular.

I have ideas, but the ideas of how deep it could go are not the relationship itself.

She wants to fix her problems, to grow and learn, and I am honored that she has chosen me as a friend, and as sexy as she is this never has to involve sex. Ever feel like something is big and inevitable? It just feels like a natural progression, for me to continue be this increasingly dominant, sexual person for her, and for her to be more and more eager for my approval. We both are loving it.

Submission is trained out of us by the culture. In America we are encouraged to climb over each other, to get "on top", join that rat race, bigger house bigger car, become the boss, make more money... arrrrgh...is this really the dream? Control of money and people are powers falsely equated to satisfaction by many.

Getting control of myself and therefore getting what will satisfy me, this is my goal.

Am I close, oh wise Rhabbi? Is that kind of what you meant by 'trained out of you by the culture'?

For me, a large part of the amazing satisfaction I feel--having found a proper man to dominate me in a way that inspires such a deep feeling of submission--is letting go. When I let go of how I thought it should be, started floating with Him instead of swimming upstream, that's when it felt deep.

He lifts the stress of my natural ability to be the strong responsible woman that I actually am. I am a switch, but I do not feel 'barely submissive' with him.

When I think I have been too cold or blunt with my girl, I ask her if I have been too hard on her, and she hugs me and says "no no no, I like it when you talk to me like that, it helps me, please don't stop", I feel deeply dominant, like I am doing a good job.

I see no conflict; I am strong and capable. With Him, I willingly submit. With her, I responsibly lead. These are strong positions for me. They are not mutually exclusive. Letting go my own self doubts and anxieties and cultural "training" has helped me with both sides of me.

There seem to be plateaus, levels if you will, that I reach as I gain experience in both dominance and submission.

I have to have both.

The delicious power to help my girfriend see her gifts by guiding her, and the gift of power to my man so that he may reach a greater satisfaction (and that I may benefit from his wisdom and strength) are both possible because I am with the proper people at the proper time in our lives.

However it plays out, It all comes down to properly pleasing myself.

I gave up thinking I knew how things should be, and started believeing in myself and my ability to find my own happiness. Even when I had no lovers at all.

tessa, this is a very cool, deep thread. Reading all these ideas and explaining myself helps me to clarify my own feelings.

You have helped me learn.

thanks for this thread tessa, you rock, and not 'barely'...

BP

tessa

07-30-2007, 06:49 PM

Getting control of myself and therefore getting what will satisfy me, this is my goal.
You said so much, so many wonderful thoughts to take in and hold close, but the one above is what reached out and stroked me. Wisdom is a beautiful thing.

I will be diving into your words over and over again, letting them soak in deeply.

Thank you, Ms. Beswitchingly.

~hugs~
tessa :wave:

tessa

07-30-2007, 06:57 PM

No, it isn't as far as you can hope to go. Here's how I've begun to be more of what I dream: give in. Not give up, just give in. Give in to the reality that some days the only way I get to demonstrate my submissiveness to him is by making him a drink, cooking supper, asking about his day and being there for him to turn to in the night. No play, no ritual, no BDSM stuff to it. But, always be ready, willing, encouraging, communicating and most importantly, listening. I miss the gems of hope and dominance and love that I'm so hungrily seeking when I'm just nodding my head and saying "Uh huh" while I think of other things.

Others never know their influence unless you let them know. So jeanne, I'm letting you know. :)

Earlier tonight, I was in the middle of my "uh-huh" while I thought of a million other things. I caught myself doing it and your words flooded in. Literally made me react physically, as if someone had shaken me hard. So I got up from where I was, went over to sit at his feet and I listened, truly listened. We shared a moment that was important for us both. It never would have happened without you and your words here. My friend, thank you.

Hugs-
tessa

jeanne

07-30-2007, 07:24 PM

Okay, tessa, here's a first for me on the forums - you made me cry. I am so touched and honored that something I said was helpful to you - and especially that you and DD had a special moment that you might have missed.

Much love,
jeanne

TomOfSweden

07-31-2007, 12:13 AM

tessa,

I see this a lot. Submission is trained out of you by the culture, this does not mean that you are barely submissive, it just means you have not found the proper person to submit to.

I am also with Russell in that a challenge is a lot more fun for me than a simple surrender. If we go back and forth a bit a sub and I can learn a lot more about each other than if I simply walk up and she does whatever I want. The process of training is one of learning about each other so that we know the strengths and weaknesses we have and forge us into a complete whole, stronger than the parts.

I prefer a barely submissive woman to a door mat. If I wanted a doormat I would go to Home Depot.

Hmmm..... Russels and your post got me thinking. Is it really challenge you, Russel and I are after? Surely it's not challenge for the sake of challenge? And surely all Doms want women who want to be doormats, or we wouldn't be drawn to being Masters? With challenge, do you mean a woman/sub who speaks up and tells you what it is she needs, and the challenge is to give her that? The reason why I don't want a docile door mat isn't that it would be boring, (which I'm sure it wouldn't be) but the fact that I would know that I'm probably not giving her what she needs. In my experience the real challenge is to get a sub to share the demands she has in way other than having a tantrum and standing, tears streaming, with her bags packed in our hall.

tessa

07-31-2007, 08:58 AM

I've been thinking some more on this, thanks to all these incredible replies.

First off, the term "doormat", used in any context with the topic of submission, is bugging the heck out of me. No disrespect meant to anyone. Submission, in whatever form it appears, whether it be high-spiritedness or quiet dignity or anything in between, brings with it a great amount of power. To deem any of it with the term "doormat" is doing all submissives an injustice. When that term is used, I think of misguided souls who just don't know their worth yet.

Tom brought this shadow of a thought to the forefront of my mind when he said:

And surely all Doms want women who want to be doormats, or we wouldn't be drawn to being Masters? The reason why I don't want a docile door mat isn't that it would be boring, (which I'm sure it wouldn't be) but the fact that I would know that I'm probably not giving her what she needs. In my experience the real challenge is to get a sub to share the demands she has in way other than having a tantrum and standing, tears streaming, with her bags packed in our hall.

Ok, ignoring the word "doormat", what he said was what I wanted to say and didn't know how to say it. The dynamic of the D/s or M/s relationship is about someone having control and someone giving up control. Of course, there are extremely varying degrees of what "control" means to every individual, but without both those parts, not much but sheer frustration is going to be going on, right? For some Dominants, the idea that a submissive would be docile and immediately obedient is a massive turn-on. But for other Dominants, being involved with someone struggling with their need to submit is what they prefer. Ok, that's my thoughts on it anyway.

Some submissives are very aware and cognizant of who they are and what they want to be. They push a Dominant's limits as much as the Dominant pushes their's. But for some submissives, they are still in the learning process, trying to understand all of it and where their place is. They need (we need) guidance and patience and training, to get us to the point of assured awareness and knowing our worth. I'm learning from the Dominants here that the challenge submissives like that present doesn't make us worthless or useless. We aren't for everyone, but neither is every Dominant appealing to every submissive (sorry Doms :o ) It's about the journey of "more"- finding each other and discovering just how far and deep the relationship can go.

How's that for thinking out loud?

tessa :wave:

TomOfSweden

07-31-2007, 09:17 AM

I'm learning from the Dominants here that the challenge submissives like that present doesn't make us worthless or useless.

Isn't the notion contradictory? Just the fact that a submissive is willing to let herself be humiliated by me and be my doormat, makes her highly valued and useful. I'm marrying my doormat on Saturday. I value her more than life itself. I can't think of a more valuable person in my entire life.

She's highly submissive. I don't like the term docile, because in my mind that's connected to strong medication...but she always obeys my every command. So far since we've met she has only gone against my orders once, and it was quite a trauma for her, (and this was before the whipping).

But she's also very opinionated, (not to mention smarter than me) and we have plenty of debates and discussions about a variety of subjects. My point is that I see no conflict between being extremely submissive and training your Master to suit your needs.

After all I do love her and I try my best to make her happy, without violating my own highly selfish needs.

pixie_dust

07-31-2007, 09:38 AM

tessa,

Thank you so much for starting this thread. I haven't commented until now, because I have been wondering so much about the same questions you have asked. (yep, I was lurking...lol)

With that, I'd just like to say that I really appreciate all of the information that everyone has shared. It's really been a great help for me.

*big hugs*

Flaming_Redhead

07-31-2007, 02:30 PM

First, I grew quickly tired of subs that were no challenge and very docile. Where is the challenge in that and where is the joy and honor of seeing someone you love work so very hard to be what both of you want her to be. morgan wants to be the best slave ever for me and for her with her strength, intelligence, and trust issues that is quite the dream.

Second, for the Dom a challenge is welcome, why else would we call it training. Know that we will be there on your bad days, even if you hurt us with your words and actions because we know how hard what you do for us is.

That's been one of my questions, also. Where's the fun in having an automatic push-button sub from the very beginning? I also wish to be the best sub ever, and believe me, it's a pretty ambitious notion. I'm not ashamed to admit that I need lots of training/discipline. The last thing you said...I need that even more.

If the problem is you, (ie nobody will ever earn your trust) then just go for it. Take the plunge even if you are scared, (under the condition that you think you have found a good one, bad doms are a dime a dozen). It's better to have a heart broken in a thousand bits repeatedly than never.

That's kinda what I did. I finally jumped, but now I'm clinging to the edge of the pool like a frightened child who's screaming, "No! No! No! I'll drown!"

Submission is trained out of you by the culture, this does not mean that you are barely submissive

I couldn't agree with you more. I've known all along that I've had some pretty bad "training." When I first told my best friend, Amy, about the lifestyle I was pursuing, she laughed her ass off and then asked a serious question. Why? She's known me forever. She calls me a "free spirit." The questions she asked were the same ones I've asked myself. Why do I want someone, a man, telling me what to do, especially with my background? *shrugs* I can't really answer that, except it's a need so strong that I walked away from a 10-year marriage.

margaret, Red was my inspiration for the thoughts you see here. And because of you being here with us, I feel even less alone. ~hugs~

I swear, Red, you took thoughts right out of my mind and posted them here. And yes, amazing! :p Hey, as long as we're struggling together, right? ~huggles~

Yep, a team. But I can't believe you said anything about those "panties" thingees. Still, under a very short skirt, if they were just the right kind, they might be kinda cute. A new experience, at least. ;)

*sings* "You're the meaning in my life. You're the inspiration. You bring feeling to my life. You're the inspiration." Ok, I only do karaoke when I'm REALLY drunk (think 3 swallows of moonshine). *ggls* It's elementary, my dear tessa! Great, though barely submissive, minds tend to think alike, which is a good thing, too, 'cause I'd hate to be the only wannabe doormat in these here parts! *huggles* Of course the panties will be cute! I was thinking of a schoolgirl uniform with ruffled panties underneath. *weg*

Dorkalicious

07-31-2007, 03:59 PM

Why do I want someone, a man, telling me what to do, especially with my background? *shrugs* I can't really answer that, except it's a need so strong that I walked away from a 10-year marriage.[/COLOR]

The fact that you walked away from a ten year marriage is astounding. I'm not sure how many people could do that, but I know what you mean when you say that the desire/need was that strong. It was a big reason of why I walked away from my last relationship. It was beginning to get physically painful to think about not having that aspect in the relationship...

Flaming_Redhead

07-31-2007, 04:51 PM

The fact that you walked away from a ten year marriage is astounding. I'm not sure how many people could do that, but I know what you mean when you say that the desire/need was that strong. It was a big reason of why I walked away from my last relationship. It was beginning to get physically painful to think about not having that aspect in the relationship...

Lots of people were astounded! I didn't know anything about BDSM, other than some soft porn. All I knew was that I was sick and tired of being in charge. I made all the decisions, from where we went to dinner to where we spent our vacations to buying our home to when we had sex and in which position, and then dealing with any fallout from those decisions pretty much all by myself. I guess I expected more from a man 11 years my senior. No matter how I tried to tell him to step up and be a man, in the bedroom or out, he only whined that he didn't know what to do. I've spent my entire adult life topping him from the bottom as well as blatently topping him, and he only showed some backbone when it came to custody of our son. I'm living with the ramifications of my decisions, but I feel it was the only way to keep my sanity, literally. I had 2 bouts of severe depression during my marriage. The first time, 3 years into the marriage, I was in complete denial of what the problem was and opted for medication, titrating up to the highest dose of Serzone, which was 300 mg a day, for 2 years. The second time, 4 years after going off the medication, I opted for marriage counseling which didn't save the marriage but made me realize it was okay to let go. I only weighed 99 pounds when I left him. I feel much better now, though I still suffer from insomnia. I have a chance to start over, and I'm trying really hard not to be the bossy, nagging bitch I was with him. It's no easy feat, especially when showing respect for a man doesn't exactly come naturally to me.

Wow! Where'd all that come from? *ggls* Back on topic, y'all!

gagged_Louise

07-31-2007, 05:44 PM

This is a really vital thread and I have to give credit first to Tessa for launching it and to you Red, for being this amazingly open-hearted, bringing us this close to your pain:

If I take an honest look at myself, I'm barely even submissive. However, upon reading the ad /by Lord Hemloc/ it touched something way down deep in my soul. The problem is that deep inside my soul there's a hole you don't wanna see. It's an ugly, foul, black abyss where madness rules, and if I listen to the whispers of the demons that dwell down there for very long, I begin to long for death to come and take me. This madness interferes with my need to submit, and it is definitely a need because when dominance is withheld from me I am greatly frustrated and unhappy. I imagine this is quite confusing to my dominant since I resist him at every opportunity.

The things you're touching on are sensitive and hard to own up because the standard image of a sub is someone who happily gives up a huge chunk of her freedom with one bold stroke, signs the slave contract and allows herself to be Dominated. Yup. that one has a pull on me and on both of you - at the same time i think we get it's half fantasy, at least in that "pure" form, and real life and your real person enters in with their obstacles. In fact I don't think many people here could give a fully rational reason why you wish to submit, it's just a part of you, something you discover, and like Firefly, I sometimes have to tell myself "okay, this is what you want, and no matter what you think or excuse, this submissiveness is in you and has to be embraced".

tessa

07-31-2007, 06:19 PM

I'm marrying my doormat on Saturday. I value her more than life itself. I can't think of a more valuable person in my entire life.

Only Tom could say this and make me want to weep girly, emotional, heart-felt tears. And do so, knowing he used the term "doormat" just to make a pointed point. :32: :) :rolleyes: :bigkiss:

*sings* "You're the meaning in my life. You're the inspiration. You bring feeling to my life. You're the inspiration." Ok, I only do karaoke when I'm REALLY drunk (think 3 swallows of moonshine). *ggls* It's elementary, my dear tessa! Great, though barely submissive, minds tend to think alike, which is a good thing, too, 'cause I'd hate to be the only wannabe doormat in these here parts! *huggles* Of course the panties will be cute! I was thinking of a schoolgirl uniform with ruffled panties underneath. *weg*

Oh now, I did that moonshine thing once. Once. I sang, too. I called up the principal of the high school and sang, "You are my sunshine, my only sunshine..." No. I have no idea why. Just seemed the thing to do at the time. Hence the "once". Red, Red...you aren't the only wannabe...umm...outside the door, shoe-wiping thingee in these here parts. and I think the ruffled panties idea is brilliant! We so gotta do that! Love ya, girlie! ~huggles~

pixie (or should I say lurking beauty? ;) ) this information has been extremely helpful for me too. This place is just incredible.

D-lish, I am so happy to know you are finding what you need and want in a relationship. Painful has a new meaning for you these days, doesn't it?? ;)

:wave:

Dorkalicious

07-31-2007, 06:33 PM

Hehe, tessa, that is very true!

Tom - tessa brought your post back up, of which I had apparently missed :( It's so funny how you can say such a thing and it brings a grin to my lips (not a smile, a grin dammit, lol!)

FR - I can't say much more then just that I am very proud of you! Not only did you see the problem, you took initiative to fix it, and you also take responsibility for your poor actions. We all live and learn sweetie, I think you are definitely an example of that :)

Logic1

08-01-2007, 03:14 AM

Lots of people were astounded! I didn't know anything about BDSM, other than some soft porn. All I knew was that I was sick and tired of being in charge. I made all the decisions, from where we went to dinner to where we spent our vacations to buying our home to when we had sex and in which position, and then dealing with any fallout from those decisions pretty much all by myself. I guess I expected more from a man 11 years my senior. No matter how I tried to tell him to step up and be a man, in the bedroom or out, he only whined that he didn't know what to do. I've spent my entire adult life topping him from the bottom as well as blatently topping him, and he only showed some backbone when it came to custody of our son. I'm living with the ramifications of my decisions, but I feel it was the only way to keep my sanity, literally. I had 2 bouts of severe depression during my marriage. The first time, 3 years into the marriage, I was in complete denial of what the problem was and opted for medication, titrating up to the highest dose of Serzone, which was 300 mg a day, for 2 years. The second time, 4 years after going off the medication, I opted for marriage counseling which didn't save the marriage but made me realize it was okay to let go. I only weighed 99 pounds when I left him. I feel much better now, though I still suffer from insomnia. I have a chance to start over, and I'm trying really hard not to be the bossy, nagging bitch I was with him. It's no easy feat, especially when showing respect for a man doesn't exactly come naturally to me.

Wow! Where'd all that come from? *ggls* Back on topic, y'all!

o.m.g that was deep from the heart.
really touching and I definitely feel your pain and hardships there. I do hope you find exactly what you are looking for.
Good job working to solve your problem! You are one strong woman!

Submission is a gift given from the sub to the Dominant and not the other way around.

TomOfSweden

08-01-2007, 03:24 AM

Only Tom could say this and make me want to weep girly, emotional, heart-felt tears. And do so, knowing he used the term "doormat" just to make a pointed point. :32: :) :rolleyes: :bigkiss:

he he. Pointy, that's me. Stab, stab.

jeanne

08-01-2007, 05:31 AM

I've been thinking a lot about this topic since tessa brought it up and have been following the posts closely. I, too, like firefly's term: realistically submissive. To me it means to be submissive to the extent that I'm able at any given moment, understanding that sometimes real life just gets in the way. We will always fall short on anything that we want to do really well, simply because we're human and have trouble accepting that sometimes, good enough is good enough. After the months that I have been reading posts here, and knowing myself pretty well, I think that many submissives are perfectionists! We want to be perfect for our Doms - perfectly submissive, perfectly beautiful, perfectly sexy... Well, who the heck defines what perfect is? I vow, beginning now, to let my husband define perfect - not me, not society, not anyone else. I know (not just believe) that he is happy with me, as I am today. He likes the extent of submissiveness that I exhibit, he thinks I'm beautiful and sexy. I have no need to worry beyond that! I daresay that all of us with loving, sometimes deliciously harsh Doms in our life can say exactly the same thing. Let's celebrate that, rather than tear ourselves down.

Whew - didn't realize there was a rant inside me waiting to come out - it's over now! :)

^firefly^

08-01-2007, 06:07 AM

his_j,

I think it's awesome how all our stories can inter-relate. I'm trying very hard to be "realistically submissive". Problem is, I'm used to being the boss. I've spent 5 years being a recovering doormat, and I'm all too used to calling the shots (in a lot of areas of my life, I still *enjoy* calling the shots). But your advice worked for me: "don't give up, just give in." I remind myself of that whenever it gets hard to let go, and I hear that whiny "but-I-don't-waaant-to" note in my voice. Case in point: last week, I was really sick, felt ugly, did *not* want to go out. He said, however, you will wear something sexy, you will put makeup on and fix your hair, and we are going out. I started to argue, but thought the better of it. And he was right; he loves how I look, even when I feel self-conscious and fat and ugly, and I had an awesome night. I know if I'd whined and argued with him about being sick, he likely would have given in and let me stay home...and then I would have moped around all night and been miserable. Sometimes, giving in is much more fun...

Sorry for the ramble...

Beswitchingly Positive

08-01-2007, 11:44 AM

tessa

08-01-2007, 01:43 PM

Whew - didn't realize there was a rant inside me waiting to come out - it's over now! :)

I'm kinda sad it's over. That was some wonderful ranting, jeanne.

Tom, if you weren't getting married on Saturday and weren't so in love with your slave and if I wasn't married and in love with my husband, and if we lived on the same continent and weren't oceans apart...

~takes a deep breath~

...I'd give you a big ol' kiss. :D

Logic, I loved what you said about the gift of submission. A wonderful thing to say.

firefly, ramble away. I got so much from you doing just that. :)

~thinks about Beswitchingly's so damn sexy punishment comment...moans~

:wave:

TomOfSweden

08-01-2007, 11:35 PM

Tom, if you weren't getting married on Saturday and weren't so in love with your slave and if I wasn't married and in love with my husband, and if we lived on the same continent and weren't oceans apart...

~takes a deep breath~

...I'd give you a big ol' kiss. :D

:eek:

he he. I think that's the most careful invitation to naughtiness I've ever received. And if I weren't getting married on Saturday and I weren't so in love with my slave and if you wasn't married and in love with your husband, and if we lived on the same continent and weren't oceans apart...

...I'd not only kiss you back but might hazard to squeeze some of your naughty bits a tad.

Dorkalicious

08-02-2007, 05:45 AM

It's gettin steamy in here :D LOL

Hime

08-02-2007, 12:44 PM

I found this thread really interesting, because D and I were talking about this just last night. He was teasing me and said "But of course, you aren't really submissive." I said "what do you mean, of course I am!" and he said that he thinks that I am naturally submissive, but I still struggle with it all the time.

Personally, I don't mind the struggle. Sometimes it is frustrating when one impulse tells me to obey and another impulse tells me to fight, but giving in to my Master doesn't mean that I want to give up my whole personality. I think that I've earned my admittedly large ego through years of being way too tough on myself, and this relationship is the first time when I've even begun to accept myself for the messy but endearing pile of contradictions that I am. :) Being with D makes me feel like it's okay for me to be stubborn and arrogant sometimes, but it's still okay to be vulnerable and need taking care of as well. Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I don't really need to "move further" than that. There's nothing wrong with complicated women.

Logic1

08-03-2007, 03:49 AM

For me a sub without some struggle is not very interresting. I need something to "work against" if you know what I mean.
feedback is nessecary to improve whatever it is you are doing and this area is no different.
Realistically submissive sounds understandeable and should work for most, except those that crave to be completely submissive to their Dom/Mistress.

Stubbornness and arrogance would abviously lead to spankings though Hime ;)

tessa

08-03-2007, 01:36 PM

:eek:

he he. I think that's the most careful invitation to naughtiness I've ever received. And if I weren't getting married on Saturday and I weren't so in love with my slave and if you wasn't married and in love with your husband, and if we lived on the same continent and weren't oceans apart...

...I'd not only kiss you back but might hazard to squeeze some of your naughty bits a tad.

~giggles and claps~ A naughty-bit squeeze from Tom!! Ok, it's only in my imaginings, but mmm mmm mmm!! Yum!

Hime, the way you said what you said...well, it just made so much sense to me. The "move forward" idea came about as a result of a comment I heard. You gave me a positive for my negative, so thanks. :)

Thanks for what you said, Logic. After all the feedback here, it's much easier to process the concept. Also, because of your response to Hime, I get to think about spankings now. :D

:wave:

Logic1

08-03-2007, 03:07 PM

I get to think about spankings now. :D

:wave:

nothing wrong with thinking about spankings :crop: (best I could find^^)

moptop

08-03-2007, 04:01 PM

Oh, my goodness, I can't believe I've missed this thread. I truly believe it is the best, deepest, most helpful thread on submission and what it is to (learn to) be submissive, that I have ever read, here or elsewhere.

Thank you everyone. Firstly - thank you for speaking my thoughts for me, and mostly, far more eloquently (and far more succinctly) than I seem able to do. Tessa, you are amazing - and yes, sometimes we think too much. Red - thank you for sharing that very personal insight into your own path with us. It took great courage to do it, and I left my last relationship after 5 years for very similar reasons.

I could go through and quote everyone and everything... but I won't. I will stick with quoting jeanine, just above:

We want to be perfect for our Doms - perfectly submissive, perfectly beautiful, perfectly sexy... Well, who the heck defines what perfect is? I vow, beginning now, to let my husband define perfect

Obviously, the italics are mine. This made me think - when he asks me to do something simple, such as send a photograph or show myself on cam when I'm not expecting it, and I protest - no, I can't, I'm ugly/fat/don't look good for whatever other reason - and he answers 'Let me be the judge of that'.

Let me be able to accept that. Let me be able to accept that he loves and desires me, and that what he sees is beautiful. Let me be able to let go. Let me be able to, yes, give up; give up my own fears and thoughts and feelings to him. Let me be brave enough to open myself to this love and care that is offered. Let me, please, submit... as much as I want to submit. Let me, please, stop being afraid of myself and of my own desires.

Please let me open up. Please wait for me to open up. Please help me to open up. I know it's in there. But meanwhile - well, yes - please put up with me!!!

And my answer to myself is? Time. Time and trust. Time and trust and communication. Time and trust and communication and love. He will wait for me to get there; he wants me to get there; he knows I try... we both need what the other needs, in one another.

Barely submissive... hmm. Sometimes, not submissive at all!

tessa

08-03-2007, 04:51 PM

nothing wrong with thinking about spankings :crop: (best I could find^^)

Logic, thank you! You found just fine! ;)

Please let me open up. Please wait for me to open up. Please help me to open up. I know it's in there. But meanwhile - well, yes - please put up with me!!!

Oh yes, that! Oh moptop, THAT is what I've been trying to say to myself and couldn't even get it thought like I wanted. Your praise for everyone else's responses must indeed be heaped on your most insightful reply as well. ~hugs~

:wave:

jeanne

08-03-2007, 05:24 PM

moptop - I second tessa's comment. You've summed up exactly how so many of us feel. Thanks so much!

Flaming_Redhead

08-03-2007, 08:15 PM

I third it! It's exactly what I couldn't say either.

moptop

08-04-2007, 12:33 AM

:o :o :o Oh! and there was me thinking that everyone else had managed to say what I couldn't say! Well... it's nice to know we're not alone, isn't it, ladies?

And as I think about it a little more (damn that thinking), I see it as normal and right and part of the joint journey, that we should have this slow bending to their will and desire, this slow giving away of ourselves. As I feel the joy and relief of finally being able to let go of something - however small - I imagine that he feels a joy and pride in being allowed to take it. A series of small triumphs for each. If it all happened at once - well, it would be boring, wouldn't it?

jeanne

08-04-2007, 04:48 AM

Well said, moptop. Very true.

Hime

08-04-2007, 08:45 AM

Stubbornness and arrogance would abviously lead to spankings though Hime ;)

Uh-oh... :p

jeanne

09-23-2007, 07:41 AM

I've been thinking a lot in the last few weeks about how I define submission for myself (again) and have had some really intense conversations with a good friend (hi :wave: ) who's on the same wavelength. So I bumped this thread back up because I remember it being so full of wisdom and information and affirmation...and it is.

Barely submissive? Maybe the difference is just opportunity, chemistry, like minds... As has been stated in other threads, by both dominants and submissives, we can only submit to the extent that they dominate - they can only dominate to the extent that we submit. A very, very vital, fluid relationship. And we really do depend on each other deeply to realize the fullest extent of our dominance or submission. More than I realized even a month ago.

I guess I'll just never stop learning,
jeanne

tessa

09-23-2007, 08:08 AM

we can only submit to the extent that they dominate - they can only dominate to the extent that we submit. A very, very vital, fluid relationship. And we really do depend on each other deeply to realize the fullest extent of our dominance or submission.

I am always in awe when it is all said exactly as it should be.

I guess I'll just never stop learning,

I hope none of us ever do, for the learning is the journey.

:wave:

moptop

09-23-2007, 01:46 PM

Oh, I'm so glad you bumped this thread, his_j! Because I gained a moment of insight this morning, when talking to another French dom (i.e. not mine, but known to us both). I'll have to paraphrase the beginning, to save translating the whole conversation, lol.

Me - I'd like to be able to react like that, I mean - and to stay, I don't know, conscious - in control - to be able to react and not simply be led by the emotions of the moment.
Him - I think it is not only about emotions, it works sometimes through a true uncoupling (or disengagement) from reality. A total abandonment takes place
Me - Yes... I don't know if I manage that either - maybe sometimes - certainly, one leaves to one side the constraints of logic
Him - You talk that way, no doubt, because you are not very advanced on this path of submission, but it will come. Perhaps you still wish to retain a certain control over the other
Me - Over the other... No, over myself, I think, above all
Him - Certainly, but that implies domination of the other
Me - Oh!
Me - I'm going to have to think about that
Him - lol - yes, think about it carefully. Because the swing happens at precisely this point

I hope the translation works so that you can see - and appreciate - the moment that made me go 'Oh!'. I'd just never thought of it that way.

DarkPoet

09-24-2007, 12:57 PM

Flaming_Redhead

10-01-2007, 09:24 AM

Just an update here....I asked my dom if he thought I was still barely submissive or more like almost. He said that he thinks a fair argument could be made for me not being in the barely submissive category.

WOO HOO HOO!!!!!! Progress!!!!! I'm not hopeless after all. :p

tessa

10-01-2007, 01:19 PM

Him - You talk that way, no doubt, because you are not very advanced on this path of submission, but it will come. Perhaps you still wish to retain a certain control over the other
Me - Over the other... No, over myself, I think, above all
Him - Certainly, but that implies domination of the other
Me - Oh!
Me - I'm going to have to think about that.

Me too! Wow! Never, ever considered it quite in that way. Wow. But thanks to you, moptop, now I can. :)

Hi tessa,
Hi there, DarkPoet. :wave:

that's a difficult, quite philosophical question. I'm not sure if, with that constraint called life we all carry with us, something like "total submission" is really possible without a total loss of oneself. Submitting totally would mean loosing all those moments filled with excitement, fear and sweaty hands along with the joy, satisfaction and gratefulness afterwards of having been led (and having let myself be led) to overcome my limitations. I wouldn't want to loose that.
This as well- never considered it from this vantage point. I will now, however, that's for sure. And I will learn much because of it.

Sexual submission is a lot like mountain climbing. After the first excitement you find yourself really tasked, often insecure about the next steps. If you look up at your target, you don't think you can make it, but you keep on climbing because you know that there's a big reward waiting for you. Even if you hurt and are exhausted, you will yourself onwards, sometimes with bare millimeters of grip left for your aching fingers. And somehow you make it to the peak and experience a freedom only few others know, and you ride it as long as you can.
Ok, first... ~moans~ And secondly, this is a wonderful way of describing the journey. I'm very able to see this in an entirely new light thanks to your words.

Just an update here....I asked my dom if he thought I was still barely submissive or more like almost. He said that he thinks a fair argument could be made for me not being in the barely submissive category.

WOO HOO HOO!!!!!! Progress!!!!! I'm not hopeless after all. :p
You never were hopeless, sweetie. Not ever. ~hugs~
:wave:

Arria

10-02-2007, 09:36 AM

Before I met my now master and husband, I was in a relationship with an abusive, insecure, control freak asshole person.
That man changed my attitude toward new people (not only lovers! in general!) from "I think you are a nice person until you prove me the opposite" to "I think you are an asshole until you prove me the opposite... and mind, you´ll have to try VERY hard".

It takes time to learn to trust again. By little steps. Then you see the new man does not take advantage of the weakness you bared, and you are more brave next time. Again - it takes time. And a person who is willing to take you as you are. Not a person who is just seeking a brainless, spineless toy.

Mind, the toy-seekers are the ones who call me "not really devote", or "pretty big-mouthed for a sub".

It is a kind of test. If you call yourself a male Dom, and are scared by me, or let me push you into an uncontrolled state of mind, you are a weakling and a coward and therefore not worth my time and love.

Those toy-seekers will never be able to even begin to imagine what I am like toward my real master. And tell you what? I am VERY glad about that fact!

Kind regards
Arria

Arria

10-02-2007, 09:44 AM

And if my hubby ever gets tired of me, I will apply to Sir Russell.
Or to GreyJack, as he makes me laugh so often.

:-)

dorsch

10-02-2007, 02:00 PM

sound like the kingdom farfaraway :) I'm still not tired of you and toys makes only fun for a weekend or a night, not for a relationship.

Arria

10-02-2007, 02:11 PM

Aw. *blush* *melt* Don´t be so nice to me or else I have to be extra-nice to you the next 10 times!!!! *wink*
:-)))

tessa

10-02-2007, 04:05 PM

Do you ENJOY submission? Does your arrangement work for you? If it does, then who cares what anyone calls it. Maybe you feel submissive only on certain days in certain ways in certain places. Are you only a 1/3 submissive? Hell no. You are a submissive who lives in reality.

This idea of yours, delia, is one of the reasons why I posed the question in the first place. Why is it for anyone else to quantify or qualify another's most deeply held feelings and thoughts? My answer? It's not. We are who we are. There shouldn't be a label placed on it at all.

tessa :wave:

cadence

10-02-2007, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by delia
Do you ENJOY submission? Does your arrangement work for you? If it does, then who cares what anyone calls it. Maybe you feel submissive only on certain days in certain ways in certain places. Are you only a 1/3 submissive? Hell no. You are a submissive who lives in reality.

This idea of yours, delia, is one of the reasons why I posed the question in the first place. Why is it for anyone else to quantify or qualify another's most deeply held feelings and thoughts? My answer? It's not. We are who we are. There shouldn't be a label placed on it at all.

tessa :wave:

It took me a long time to realize that there was no definitive guideline as to how submissive I was supposed to be.

There is the other side of the coin however.
Maybe I just don't fully understand it yet, but when there is no one on the receiving end to appreciatate your submissiveness then it just seems futile.
How can you understand and feel submissive when the other person will not respond.

It's hard to continue on as if things are normal, and try to maintain whatever you can out of it.
I have tried, but in the end I feel useless, betrayed and inadequate

Flaming_Redhead

10-02-2007, 06:39 PM

Why is it for anyone else to quantify or qualify another's most deeply held feelings and thoughts? My answer? It's not. We are who we are. There shouldn't be a label placed on it at all.

I don't particularly care if I meet someone else's criteria for submissiveness, but I struggle with knowing that deep down I want to be able to give in totally to someone else and feeling as if I'm holding myself back out of fear. That's the real issue, I think, for me. I'm not trying to live up to some set in stone ideal that says I have to be this way or that way. I think if I was it would be easier than trying to live up to my own perfectionist ideology.

It took me a long time to realize that there was no definitive guideline as to how submissive I was supposed to be.

There is the other side of the coin however.
Maybe I just don't fully understand it yet, but when there is no one on the receiving end to appreciatate your submissiveness then it just seems futile.
How can you understand and feel submissive when the other person will not respond.

It's hard to continue on as if things are normal, and try to maintain whatever you can out of it.
I have tried, but in the end I feel useless, betrayed and inadequate

I've been there and done that. I had a Christian marriage counselor tell me that I needed to come under my husband's wing. My frustration was that there was NO wing to come under! Talk about betrayal....left standing in the open all by yourself. That's all water under the bridge, though. It didn't work out. I now have a wing to come under, so to speak, and found myself darting under only to run back out again. lol I think I've finally made some progress in the trust department...trusting myself and trusting him. This is what I've been waiting for! When he responds to my efforts to please him, my heart soars.

Sir_Russell

10-07-2007, 03:25 PM

I guess I should have visited here more often. First Flaming-Redhead trying to be who you aren't is very hard and trying, some times life only offers us one path and no choices. You got to that point and thankfully you did what you had to do. I only wish I was graced to guide you through this life and growth.

Second Arria I am very proud of your remrk but I do hope that you continue on with your loving Dom and never have to go through a breakup you don't want.

jeanne I don't think anyone could have said it better, you summed up submission, let the Dom decide what is perfect, course the Dom must know you well and value you beyond anything else in his life. Then his perfect will be what you both want and need.

My only request of a sub/slave that is etched in stone is that she shows me the respect that I have earned, nothing more nothing less. That keeps me on my toes knowing that I must earn the respect each day. I have just gone through a couple of months with morgan disrespecting often and deeply, mostly through her own self doubt and negativity. Hardly respectful to call the man / Dom you claim to love a liar, thief, and other things on a daily basis with little or no basis for it. I have all ways shown her respect till just lately and now I do not dare to let love or respect for her grow again for the same reasons that Flaming-Redhead took 10 years to figure out.

jeanne

10-07-2007, 05:18 PM

jeanne I don't think anyone could have said it better, you summed up submission, let the Dom decide what is perfect, course the Dom must know you well and value you beyond anything else in his life. Then his perfect will be what you both want and need.

Sir_Russell, thank you for reminding me of that statement, as I have been struggling lately with fear of not being perfect. By my definition, not his.

My only request of a sub/slave that is etched in stone is that she shows me the respect that I have earned, nothing more nothing less.

Seems reasonable to me.

BTW - can I get in the "just in case" line too? :)

jeanne

10-07-2007, 05:29 PM

delia, thanks for your thoughtful response. Having spent only a small amount of time with him and staring an upcoming extended rendevous in the face, I find that nerves are overtaking my senses - to my own detriment. It's good to be reminded that he chose me for a reason. :)

Sir_Russell

10-07-2007, 05:49 PM

jeanne I am honored and certainly but again remember why you offered your gift to him and take steps not to turn into a morgan. Remember that it is all about 3 words, Respect, Honor, and Pride. Have them for yourself and him and he will have them for you and himself.

Any relationship in my opinion lacking any of these three is doomed.

Sir_Russell

10-07-2007, 05:52 PM

delia your right in that attitude and it shows that you understand those words too. Simple words that mean more then anything else in the world

jeanne

10-07-2007, 08:15 PM

And always ask yourself this: Is what I am doing going to please him?
If you remember that, you'll always do the right thing.

Remember that it is all about 3 words, Respect, Honor, and Pride. Have them for yourself and him and he will have them for you and himself.

These words are what I needed to hear today, soothing raw nerves. I feel like I just got a nice, reassuring hug. Thank you both. :)

And that's the end of my little panic attack,
jeanne

Sir_Russell

10-10-2007, 07:57 AM

delia is very right in her advice.

I am leaving a relationship that with a woman that I loved because she has a trust issue that I am no longer willing to deal with. Trust is part of both honor and respect and to love someone without that is impossible.

The heart of D/s or M/s is about knowing that the other person means more to you then your own wellbeing.

Flaming_Redhead

10-10-2007, 08:26 AM

I am leaving a relationship that with a woman that I loved because she has a trust issue that I am no longer willing to deal with. Trust is part of both honor and respect and to love someone without that is impossible.

Awwwwww I'm very sad to hear that! I know that for me I can love someone without trusting them completely. Don't ask....I'm totally fucked up. Anyway, I won't meddle in your business or tell you to stay because I don't know the details. However, I have trust issues which I'm still trying to overcome, and it has taken my dom 6 months to get to the point where he doesn't see me as "barely" submissive. For months and months, I've resisted and been contrary at every turn, and he's tried everything to bring me under control. First month, it was telling me he was disappointed. Next month, it was lectures about disrespect. Then, the next month, he let his anger show and cut me to pieces with his words. Lastly, he withheld from me any attempt at dominance and pretty much ignored me. The last one gave me plenty to time to think about everything he said. It was a terrible time. I'm still surprised that he didn't leave. The last couple of months, I've been a good girl. I'm desperately trying to prove that I want this and can do this. He's noticed, but I can tell he's still a bit wary....which kinda hurts....but I brought it on myself. Not giving up on me means a lot, though, because abandonment is a huge fear of mine, even though I kinda bring it about. I know....I'm fucked up! lol

I'm not sure where I was going with this, exactly. You seem like a very intelligent dom who knows his business. I'm just sorry that morgan can't seem to find the will to swallow her fear and just go for it, especially after all you've done for her. The guilt would eat me alive.

Sir_Russell

10-10-2007, 04:31 PM

WE have been together for almost 3 years and I have done all of that and more, before her move here we were good together she had put most of that aside. Now that I am here it is very different and back to the begining or worse.

I don't do this without a lot of personal pain and deep regret that I am not capable of overcoming the problems

Wedjat

10-11-2007, 09:34 AM

I'm sorry about your pain, Sir. Wish I could be more helpful. I'm still figuring out how submissive I am myself, and appreciate all of your time and friendship very much.

On another track, though, I just found this particular thread the other day, and have been thinking about the basic premise here. The fact is, some people MAY just be 'barely submissive' and have different needs from someone who is extremely submissive. In ANY characteristic in ANY group of humans the only thing one can count on is that there are going to be differences between them and a RANGE of differences from very strong to barely there. For example, consider homosexuality; it's fairly easy to see that there are extremely hetero as well as extremely homosexual people in the world as well as a full range between the two of varying degrees of bisexuality. Why not consider that Dominance and submission characteristics can be the same? Some ARE barely submissive and would be a bad fit with a completely dominant personality. Just like in vanilla relationships, there are characteristics that are a bad fit and might not work over the long run and some that fit together extremely well.

I hope I've not spoken out of turn, since I am not only not sure of how submissive I am myself - I'm really just starting to discover and explore that in my own life, but new to the forums. It is also true that people can change and grow - kinda sad if they don't in life. I agree totally with Sir_Russell that in ANY relationship the parties need to communicate and respect each other, in order to grow together. 'nuff said.

Ozme52

10-11-2007, 04:33 PM

First, one can't speak out of turn here... especially if offering an opinion. Every perspective teaches us all.

And of course, all human activity falls on a continuum. There are no absolutes although we, as human beings, often try to create boundaries and differentiation with out definitions.

Now as to 'barely' submissive, I would contend that some feel just a little submissive until they meet the right dominant. When you get chemistry, sparks fly and your submission may well overwhelm you.

Likewise, a somewhat dominant personality may blossom into a full bored uber-dom (pardon the hyperbole) with the right submissive in his "clutches".

Wedjat

10-11-2007, 06:22 PM

Thank you for your coments OZ, I've been 'lurking' on the site for a bit and I have read some of your comments before and respect your opinions.

Thanks for commenting on the continuum idea (THAT was the word that was escaping me when I wrote that earlier section. Sheesh) That was exactly what I was trying to get across. It just seemed that upon reading this thread that a lot of people were saying 'all or nothing'.

Sir_Russell

10-11-2007, 07:10 PM

Wedjat,

Most of us that are experienced in the life try to preach that it is different for each person and couple. There aren't any rules about how you must be in this life only personal guidelines and goals.

What I think you are hearing is a lot of submissive doubting themselves, I call it subbie disease, and most of the best ones do. None of us are perfect but the difference here is that the best of all of us strive to be the Best we can be to improve ourselves.

I agree you may never get to be the submissive that will please the very hard core Dom but I know that you can please most of the Doms if you decide it is for you.

Ozme52

10-11-2007, 07:56 PM

Thank you for your coments OZ, I've been 'lurking' on the site for a bit and I have read some of your comments before and respect your opinions.

I appreciate the sentiment. Thx.

Wedjat

10-11-2007, 10:01 PM

Sir, I'm not thinking about most Doms. : )

Sir_Russell

10-12-2007, 06:33 PM

lol, well I am not hardcore at all, I love life and the Life believe it is best when shared with someone that also knows who she is.

Wedjat

10-13-2007, 01:29 AM

Thank you, Sir. I'd like to think that at my age I at least have SOME idea who I am : ) Finding out new things, and trying new things should always be part of life, though, I believe. I'd imagine you have some ideas along those lines. : )

Sir_Russell

10-14-2007, 03:07 PM

Wedjat, how would you know if your truly submissive now. Have you really experienced its joys and the rewards your Dom can give you? Have you developed the trust for that Dom that allows you the freedom to release control? Has anyone made you feel compelled to kneel at his feat and wait to see how you can please him.

Till you have these you will not know if you really are. When you know that bringing him a smile or making him know the joy of you is really what you live for and at that time your sub will know it is real.

Wedjat

10-15-2007, 01:05 AM

Thanks again,Sir. No I haven't, to answer your questions, but you've got me thinking about it, and THAT's new for me, as you know. I do like making you smile already : )

Sir_Russell

10-17-2007, 12:35 PM

I am growing quite fond of you Wedjat of course you already knew that. We all start our journeys being novices. I do enjoy the training of a newbee sort of like finding a virgin. If she is willing and wants what I offer great. The rewards then are worth the effort and work.

Training means different things to different people to me it means that we have reached the first stages. When I train reward is about 90% of it and 10% punishment that is real and meant to make it a choice of become better or leave. Learning how to please me is only a small part of that training, it includes how to show respect, how to get what you want and need from and stay submissive, how to find pleasure and joy in being mine. There is plenty more but it also varies based on who the sub is at heart.

Wedjat

10-17-2007, 10:44 PM

Fond of you too, Sir : ) A lot of that sounds good, but so hard to tell from a distance. One part I'm not sure about is where you said " how to get what you want and need from and stay submissive". I'm not sure what I might want and need from it. Still trying to figure that out myself. *sigh* Wish I could tell you more. Talk soon, I hope.

Sir_Russell

10-18-2007, 07:41 PM

should have read from me. Learn how to do that and a sub/slave life becomes one of pleasure

tessa

10-18-2007, 08:05 PM

Sir Russell, my very best to you. ~lil' hug~

I'm totally fucked up. *lots of good words that tessa didn't feel led to comment on* I know....I'm fucked up! lol

Stop saying that! Please? We all have our fucked up issues. Just because we do have such issues doesn't mean we have to label ourselves in this manner. Yes, this includes you, sweetie. ~hugs~

In ANY characteristic in ANY group of humans the only thing one can count on is that there are going to be differences between them and a RANGE of differences from very strong to barely there.
Excellently stated! Thank you for presenting it like this. :)

First, one can't speak out of turn here... especially if offering an opinion.
I was going to say this to Wedjat, but now I'll just highlight Oz's words...save a few ketstrokes and still express myself. Thanks, Oz.

Every perspective teaches us all
Thanks again, Oz. Wise, wise words.

Now as to 'barely' submissive, I would contend that some feel just a little submissive until they meet the right dominant. When you get chemistry, sparks fly and your submission may well overwhelm you.
Likewise, a somewhat dominant personality may blossom into a full bored uber-dom (pardon the hyperbole) with the right submissive in his "clutches".
A perspective from which to learn. Thank you one more time, Oz. Gosh. been doing that quite a bit lately it seems. :)

I'm discovering, for myself at least, that it completely hinges on the matching of minds to make this D/s type relationship work. Some submissives crave the strict Dominant. Then there are others who appreciate the informal-ness certain Dominants prefer. Some Dominants need absolute subservience to find happiness, while others appreciate a different style of submission. It's when the two matches come together and strike into each other that blazes it all into the magic we all seek.

Brings a new perspective to "come on, baby, light my fire".

tessa :wave:

Ozme52

10-18-2007, 11:33 PM

tessa... what else do you think you might learn from me? :blurp_ani

GreyJack

10-19-2007, 12:24 AM

An excellent thread and one I think that should be "required reading" for anyone in the Life, whether newbie, "just curious," or veteran because it gives such a deep and wide perspective of so many issues. Most importantly, it emphasizes the need for mutual trust and clear, open, emotional communication.

I find it amusing sometimes that people focus so much on opposites -- the strength of a Dominant, the weakness of the submissive. They take them as labels and ideals and try desperately sometimes to mold a real human being into a lifeless husk labeled "This" and "That." And then they feel they have failed if they don't conform to the ideal. If you expect perfection in another human being, you're involved in a shell game where you will never, ever find the hidden pea. Relationships are organic. They live in a mutually created "world" separate from ideals and catastrophes. No one is a perfect slave or sub and no one is a perfect Dom or Domme. But they are human and hopefully humane. Emotional closeness and even sentiment may make someone appear "as perfect as it gets." And why should'n't we be gloriously happy with that? Sure, strive to be more...but it has to be more "you" whatever that may mean at any given time. As imperfect humans, we can easily misinterpret one thing for another, trust for suspicion, concern for jealousy, and strength for weakness. Don't the participants in every relationship create mutually accepted definitions of what these things are and mean? So should it be with the arbitrary terms "slave" "sub" "Master" "Domina" or whatever other terms you use to identify yourself by. Otherwise, we sink into dogma and cant and relationships become fossilized into lifeless rite and ritual. We're better than that. And our relationships can be far better than that. And, for Goddess' sake, put some fun into it, too. It's not weak to laugh or to cry or to feel your own frailty or take the occasional ego trip or even to be a little silly. It's human. It's life.

Ayesha

10-19-2007, 01:55 AM

I had some immediate thoughts right away when I read the starter post. I hope I am not reiterating anything that has already been stated because there is so much in here already.

I have been there too with that struggle between self, strength, will and submission. I had a never ending need to try to force the other to prove they were worthy of my trust. I never even clued into the fact that I was not giving any trust to them either. Now there were people that were not worthy of that in the first place and thank god I found that there was people that were worth it.

Everyone has different dynamics in how they view BDSM, lifestyle, marriage and what a dom or sub means to them. I have been where I paid lip service to submission. Allowing the orders, obey without true desire, all the time feeling inner rebelliousness. I have refused to allow inner walls that I built to protect myself to drop and then I never could really feel what becoming open and vulnerable to another means. If you ever find that place once then you can go there again if you really allow yourself to believe that it will free you. I think any true Dom /Domme never desire a mindless doormat; a person who will give away submission to anyone is not valuing themselves so why would the Dom value it. A strong person that submits and gives themselves because they know what they are worth is well worth the journey if the Dom knows what he has.

Exploring the feelings and doubts the way you are is not an easy thing to do when most people would perhaps take it as some sort of failure. I think it is a sign of strength to struggle to understand your fears, how you are strong and how you want to become. I see a lot of people assume that to say you are a sub or a dom means you are instantly transformed into the perfect example. That is the farthest thing from the truth because it is a learning curve that is probably the hardest one to tackle and with the greater reward for you in the end.

I have been on the other side of that too. I had to deal with the feeling of having to lead when I was not sure how to step. I had learned a great deal about the weight of having the role in the eyes of another of being the all knowing and in charge person. I wonder if you had ever considered that the other person in your life feels just as uncertain at times as you do, that they are trying to be the Dom when maybe this is the first time they have ever explored what that means. I wonder if at times the pressure to just know how to be for them is also just as hard too. I also wonder if at times the appearance of inconsistent demands or attempts to be in charge lead to reactions born of frustration and uncertainty on the part of the dominate partner as well. It kind of puts a different spin on it when you try to be in the other shoes.

I hope this makes sense and is not too rambling...

Wedjat

10-19-2007, 10:22 AM

tessa, thank you for the compliment - I'm new to the forums and it was very cool to be quoted in sombody else's comment for the first time. : )

Thank you Greyjack and Ayesha for your insights too. As a newbie to all of this, not just the forums, your well spoken (and definitely not rambling)thoughts are very welcome.

Parts of this life seem incredibly appealing, and parts are just plain scary to somebody coming into it for the first time, especially for the submissive. I know, Doms take risks emotionally too, but they still aren't risking being on the receiving end of an ER trip.

Personally, I tend to be too trusting, but having had to spend the last few years struggling to keep things together financially for me and my daughter after some REALLY sucky decisions made by my husband at the time, would make it hard, if not impossible, for me to ever just hand over decisions - at least those outside the bedroom- to anybody. Fortunately, some of these discussions are helping me see that it all comes down to what the individuals involved agree on. That's a huge thing for me - the communication in a good relationship, whether D/s or vanilla is going to make it or break it.

jeanne

10-21-2007, 03:22 AM

And, for Goddess' sake, put some fun into it, too. It's not weak to laugh or to cry or to feel your own frailty or take the occasional ego trip or even to be a little silly. It's human. It's life.

Amen! I've recently discovered this very thing - he seems to enjoy my wit, my brain, my silliness as much as he enjoys my submission. Yay! :)

I think it is a sign of strength to struggle to understand your fears, how you are strong and how you want to become.

Absolutely true.

tessa, thank you for the compliment - I'm new to the forums and it was very cool to be quoted in sombody else's comment for the first time. : )

Parts of this life seem incredibly appealing, and parts are just plain scary to somebody coming into it for the first time, especially for the submissive. I know, Doms take risks emotionally too, but they still aren't risking being on the receiving end of an ER trip.

Wedjat - here you are - quoted again. :wave:

Just plain scary? Hell, yes! Both emotionally and physically. But, oh so worthwhile. Very worthwhile.

Wedjat

10-23-2007, 09:25 AM

jeanne

10-23-2007, 10:17 AM

his-j, thanks for quote #2! I have to figure out how to do that : )

I appreciate everybody's comments, and it's all very enlightening. Still working on where I might fit in and what I might want in the long run. One of my biggest concerns is that I worry about losing myself, because, dammit! I like who I am now. I don't want somebody who thinks they have to change me. I do know that we change all the time and growth should be a part of life, and I'm looking to learn new things - and have new things done to me : ) I would like to grow together with someone. Does any of that make sense?

Quoted again! And yes, it makes perfect sense to me - I too like myself - and it was a long road to get there. And I worried about being "changed". I hit the jackpot though - karma stepped in and put me in the path of one who likes me just the way I am, respects my brain, and values my submissiveness - without feeling the need to change me to fit some predetermined mold. Instead, he is helping me discover (or is it uncover) my submissive nature and is enjoying the journey with me. He's just my type and tells me that I am his, too. I truly am blessed to have him in my life today. And to top it all off with whipped cream and a cherry? The things we do - the things he does with me and to me - well, I can only say OMG, as in "OMG, that was amazing" or "OMG, please don't stop" and my favorite: "OMG, please, may I come again?" for the third or fourth or tenth time...it just got very warm in here, didn't it? :rolleyes:

I hope you find that for yourself. I'm proof that it exists - the perfect match of need and desire.

Eternally grateful,
jeanne

Ozme52

10-23-2007, 03:37 PM

his-j, thanks for quote #2! I have to figure out how to do that : )

Look at the bottom right corner of this or any other post. Press the 'quote' button and you're on your way. You'll note bounding [-quote-] and [-/quote-] tags (minus the hyphens) and you can add more of those to split a quote up and add your comments between different parts of the quote.

If you want to quote more than one person, click on the 'multi' button in each of the posts you want... and then go to the bottom and press 'reply'

Ozme52

10-23-2007, 03:42 PM

Quoted again! And yes, it makes perfect sense to me - I too like myself - and it was a long road to get there. And I worried about being "changed". I hit the jackpot though - karma stepped in and put me in the path of one who likes me just the way I am, respects my brain, and values my submissiveness - without feeling the need to change me to fit some predetermined mold. Instead, he is helping me discover (or is it uncover) my submissive nature and is enjoying the journey with me. He's just my type and tells me that I am his, too. I truly am blessed to have him in my life today. And to top it all off with whipped cream and a cherry? The things we do - the things he does with me and to me - well, I can only say OMG, as in "OMG, that was amazing" or "OMG, please don't stop" and my favorite: "OMG, please, may I come again?" for the third or fourth or tenth time...it just got very warm in here, didn't it? :rolleyes:

I hope you find that for yourself. I'm proof that it exists - the perfect match of need and desire.

Eternally grateful,
jeanne

Is it an understatement to say you sound very very happy. :cool:

jeanne

10-23-2007, 05:42 PM

Is it an understatement to say you sound very very happy. :cool:

Yes. It is an understatement. I'm not only very very, I'm very very very very! Happy, that is. :)

Wedjat

10-23-2007, 10:02 PM

Look at the bottom right corner of this or any other post. Press the 'quote' button and you're on your way. You'll note bounding [-quote-] and [-/quote-] tags (minus the hyphens) and you can add more of those to split a quote up and add your comments between different parts of the quote.

If you want to quote more than one person, click on the 'multi' button in each of the posts you want... and then go to the bottom and press 'reply'
:)
Thanks Oz, let me see if this works

Quoted again! And yes, it makes perfect sense to me - I too like myself - and it was a long road to get there. And I worried about being "changed". I hit the jackpot though - karma stepped in and put me in the path of one who likes me just the way I am, respects my brain, and values my submissiveness - without feeling the need to change me to fit some predetermined mold. Instead, he is helping me discover (or is it uncover) my submissive nature and is enjoying the journey with me. He's just my type and tells me that I am his, too. I truly am blessed to have him in my life today. And to top it all off with whipped cream and a cherry? The things we do - the things he does with me and to me - well, I can only say OMG, as in "OMG, that was amazing" or "OMG, please don't stop" and my favorite: "OMG, please, may I come again?" for the third or fourth or tenth time...it just got very warm in here, didn't it? :rolleyes:

I hope you find that for yourself. I'm proof that it exists - the perfect match of need and desire.

Eternally grateful,
jeanne

....and thank you once again, Jeanne. I appreciate your comments very much, and you give me hope. I'll have to keep that whipped cream and cherry in mind if I do meet someone (or get to meet the someone I've been chatting with! I'll have to thank him again for telling me about this site. : )

Ozme52

10-23-2007, 10:34 PM

<<== likes whipping creamy cherries.

tessa

10-31-2007, 10:57 AM

tessa... what else do you think you might learn from me? :blurp_ani

<<== likes whipping creamy cherries.
Something like that, maybe? :p Seriously Oz, I learn something from you most every time I read what you write. (I won't say "every time" as your ego probably doesn't need any more stroking than that.)

Most importantly, it emphasizes the need for mutual trust and clear, open, emotional communication.
Anything that promotes that vital need is worth the reading.

Sure, strive to be more...but it has to be more "you" whatever that may mean at any given time. As imperfect humans, we can easily misinterpret one thing for another, trust for suspicion, concern for jealousy, and strength for weakness. Don't the participants in every relationship create mutually accepted definitions of what these things are and mean? So should it be with the arbitrary terms "slave" "sub" "Master" "Domina", or whatever other terms, you use to identify yourself by? Otherwise, we sink into dogma and cant and relationships become fossilized into lifeless rite and ritual. We're better than that.
YES! Exactly that. Using the term "fossilized" provides the concreteness to the abstract. Without the continual evolution of growth and change, the connection will become stagnant and lifeless. Ick. No thanks. I'm for more. And more. More of me, more of him, more of Us.

Everyone has different dynamics in how they view BDSM, lifestyle, marriage and what a dom or sub means to them.
And that's perfectly acceptable. We all define for ourselves. It's the individualness of it all that creates the special qualities each of us can bring into our own lives.

I have refused to allow inner walls that I built to protect myself to drop and then I never could really feel what becoming open and vulnerable to another means. If you ever find that place once then you can go there again if you really allow yourself to believe that it will free you.
It is very freeing, isn't it? In a way that is impossibly difficult to describe, but so incredible to experience.

Exploring the feelings and doubts the way you are is not an easy thing to do when most people would perhaps take it as some sort of failure. I think it is a sign of strength to struggle to understand your fears, how you are strong and how you want to become. I hope this makes sense and is not too rambling...
I think you said it just the way it needed to be said. Especially this part. Especially for me. Thank you. :)

tessa, thank you for the compliment - I'm new to the forums and it was very cool to be quoted in sombody else's comment for the first time. : )
You are most welcome. Thank you for providing the words to quote in the first place. And don't I love being someone's first. ;)

tessa :wave:

Ozme52

10-31-2007, 02:37 PM

[QUOTE=tessa;491287]Something like that, maybe? :p Seriously Oz, I learn something from you most every time I read what you write. (I won't say "every time" as your ego probably doesn't need any more stroking than that.)

True... but let's talk some more about stroking. There's more to me than my ego. :blurp_ani

Playfulsub

11-06-2007, 09:12 AM

I've spent my entire adult life topping him from the bottom as well as blatently topping him, and he only showed some backbone when it came to custody of our son. I'm living with the ramifications of my decisions, but I feel it was the only way to keep my sanity, literally. I had 2 bouts of severe depression during my marriage. The first time, 3 years into the marriage, I was in complete denial of what the problem was and opted for medication, titrating up to the highest dose of Serzone, which was 300 mg a day, for 2 years. The second time, 4 years after going off the medication, I opted for marriage counseling which didn't save the marriage but made me realize it was okay to let go. I only weighed 99 pounds when I left him. I feel much better now, though I still suffer from insomnia. I have a chance to start over, and I'm trying really hard not to be the bossy, nagging bitch I was with him. It's no easy feat, especially when showing respect for a man doesn't exactly come naturally to me.

Wow, thanks for sharing that. Saving my sanity is the one reason I might justify ending my marriage. It may come to that, eventually.

Flaming_Redhead

11-06-2007, 01:33 PM

*blushes* You're welcome. I'm not really an advocate for divorce because it can be a nasty business, but in my case, I literally felt that it was a do or die situation. If you're considering it, make damn sure it's what you really want and worth any price because, trust me, you won't get out unscathed...i.e. loss of friends (they'll take sides), disapproval of family members, child(ren) choosing to live with the other parent, ex threatening to expose your proclivities to DFACS, ex threatening to make trouble at your job, etc. *deep breath* I'm still alive, and I'm doing the best that I can. Most days, I'm even happy! *smiles* People like tessa and DareDevil and VoodooMan....I don't know what I'd do without them....real people who love me just the way I am....*cries* I'm sorry....anyway, I don't regret what I had to do. I regret that I had no fight left in me....that I listened to my mother and tried to be nice to him....felt sorry for him even....while he was playing dirty....

See, this is why I stay away from this thread.....I blab too much! grrrr Don't touch me! Stop looking at me like that! I don't want or need your pity. This bitch right here is tough! *nods a lot* Everyone back away from the red-head slowly, and you won't get hurt!

*whispers* ppssttt....tessa, you can hug me all you want but only 'cause you give those boobie squishing hugs, and your hair smells nice....mmmmm

Sir_Russell

11-06-2007, 09:51 PM

Red
I understand how it felt and I think I understand the why you did what you did. You wanted to do the right thing, to be able to live with yourself in the after time. To maybe have a friendship so that the child or children would not be subjected to the doubt that comes from parents tearing each other down.

I respect what you tried to do

tessa

11-07-2007, 08:46 AM

Everyone back away from the red-head slowly, and you won't get hurt!

*whispers* ppssttt....tessa, you can hug me all you want but only 'cause you give those boobie squishing hugs, and your hair smells nice....mmmmm
~huggles Red all up, adds in more boob squishing than is necessary 'cause it feels so very good~ Yeah, you're a toughie, alright. And cute. Let's not forget cute. :)

You know, even being married to someone who's willing to be involved in all this is still a tough deal sometimes. Life gets in the way, stress gets in the way, the need for sleep gets in the way, the damn phone ringing gets in the way, the fact that you just can't up and run off and stay kinkyfied together, alone, for like a year or two, gets in that way...I could go on and on, but I think these perhaps get the point across.

It's an ongoing deal...no matter what. It's the glimpse of what it all can be and feel that keeps one going for more...and more. Addiction in the sweetest way, I say.

Flaming_Redhead

11-07-2007, 09:31 AM

MMMMMMM Gotta love it when the boobie squishing lasts a little longer than necessary. *ggls*

Even dating a dominant, work gets in the way....*le sigh* Trying to be creative and inspirational is hard. I'm currently in the midst of plotting something inspirational, but it's difficult because I don't usually premeditate...um...reasons for a spanking....*eg* Drastic times call for drastic measures!

tessa

11-07-2007, 10:04 AM

I'm currently in the midst of plotting something inspirational, but it's difficult because I don't usually premeditate...um...reasons for a spanking....*eg* Drastic times call for drastic measures!

~giggles at Red's "premeditation"~

I told you...bend over the back of the sofa, stick that luscious ass of yours out a bit and say "please". Just do it with that mischevious glint in your eye and a wicked smile on your face.

Premeditate that way and see if you get your "drastic" self taken care of, ok?

Then come tell me about it...detail whore that I am, and all. ;)

Ozme52

11-07-2007, 12:04 PM

Tell us all.

tessa

11-09-2007, 10:31 AM

Tell us all.

Are boys called 'detail whores' as well, or is there another term for that?

gagged_Louise

11-09-2007, 03:39 PM

Are boys called 'detail whores' as well, or is there another term for that?

Umm, maybe "he's a detail nut" would be better. ;)

btw in Swedish there's this lovely word for someone who is totally into a certain (scientific?) subject, excluding all others: fackidiot ("discipline idiot") Now, that's really a juicy word isn't it tessa? :)

Ozme52

11-09-2007, 04:19 PM

Are boys called 'detail whores' as well, or is there another term for that?

Men? Yeah, I think that's the term.

Sir_Russell

11-09-2007, 07:04 PM

Ruby

11-09-2007, 07:11 PM

Red,

Did you get that spanking?

I'm with Tessa on this one.

You might need to drop a ton of bricks on said partner and say something like, "I really need a spanking! May you give me one, please?"

It always works for me.

Wedjat

11-09-2007, 07:45 PM

Red
I have to laugh at the idea that you have to create a need to be spanked. Any lady of mine only has to be breathing and within grabbing distance to get her lovely bottom turned pink or red. Then I love it when there is a submissive's pretty bottom over my knee squirming and begging for more or to cum.

*sigh* Hopefully, I'll get my first 'pleasure spanking' one of these days. : ) Have to work on that "grabbing distance" part. Darned Rockies.:rolleyes:

sidhewolf

11-10-2007, 06:30 AM

This conversation with tessa came about because of Lord Hemloc's personal ad. He was looking for a slave which I have never considered myself to be. I've never wanted to be a slave due to some negative feelings about the whole idea of just giving in completely, and if I take an honest look at myself, I'm barely even submissive. However, upon reading the ad, it touched something way down deep in my soul. The problem is that deep inside my soul there's a hole you don't wanna see. It's an ugly, foul, black abyss where madness rules, and if I listen to the whispers of the demons that dwell down there for very long, I begin to long for death to come and take me. This madness interferes with my need to submit, and it is definitely a need because when dominance is withheld from me I am greatly frustrated and unhappy. I imagine this is quite confusing to my dominant since I resist him at every opportunity. Why? I've been thinking about it for a long time, and I believe it's due to absolute terror. I can remember when just the thought of being collared would almost send me into a panic attack, but I still kept searching...my need driving me onward in spite of the fear. When I read "Story of O" based on a friend's recommendation, I thought it was very erotic, but I was troubled for O. I was angry with her each time she gave in to the demands of Rene who obviously didn't love her at all. I was angry because I'm also guilty of having let myself be used by people who didn't deserve to lick the bottom of my shoes. I was hopeful about Sir Stephen, only to discover that my worst fears were realized in the end. I have trust and abandonment issues for good reason, and the book echoes the questions that I ask myself. If I do everything he wants, will he love me or despise me? Does he love me, or is he using my need to be loved and accepted to manipulate me as has happened throughout my life? What if I surrender myself completely to his will only to be abandoned when he tires of me? That right there would be the death of me for sure because I don't think I could ever give myself to someone like that more than once. Other questions also continue to nag me. What if I am never able to surrender? What if no one is willing or able to break through? I will be a very miserable person since I can't go back to vanilla. *sigh* I've resolved to keep trying. It's the only choice I have, really. Some progress is being made though not as much as I would like, so I'm not only struggling with disappointing him but also myself. It definitely helps to have a kindred spirit to talk to while drinking a Ruby Relaxer and daydreaming about riding...um....horses.

tessa, we are a team, so you are not alone! *hugs* Now, we need to think of an appropriate name for our team and get some cute uniforms, preferably something with a very short skirt and maybe some of those new-fangled thingies you call "panties."

Tessa and All,

This is a Great topic I think <soft smiles>, and raises some very valid points, and I have read them all. Though I have chosen Reds posted response to give my own experience on things She writes about. Because I can soooo relate to Her thoughts.

Back in the beginning of my Journey into the BDSM Style of relating, I had a Mentor who later became my *M* for a time of 3 years. All of the questions and fears you write of Red, I experienced. Including the feeling of "abandonement" when I was Released....and all the devastation you speak of percieving it may be should it happen to you. Though it was never Really that....however I percieved it to be so for a while. It was simply Time, however I fought and struggled for it not to be. It Was! That Reality was very hard for me. As hard as you describe. I quit my job of 8 years, took to my bed, as if terminally ill, and even had my lymph nodes swell all over my body. The bottom line Really, was my struggle with Me. When I resolved that, I was better for it All. My last and final, and most difficult Gift and Lesson from my *M*and Mentor of that day. And I am soooo very Blessed for it!

Truly one cannot Give Control one does not have. One must have Power to hand ones Power over to Someone else. So could it be for You and Other(s) who think they are "Barely Submissive", that is actually Owning one's own Power? "Barely Submissive" means *to me* that it is My Choice to Whom I Submit. I have no obligation to Submit to Anyone or Anything I do not wish to. And I will NOT Submit, nor Give My Submission, simply because it exists within me, nor because of my need for it to be Accepted/Taken....even with the ache that causes. "Barely Submissive" means *to me* that I am no ones doormat, that I have a brain that functions well, that even as Slave I am a Person First, and I have no need, desire, nor tolerance for abuse, and that no matter who or what comes or goes I have my own Spirit. I am also quite mischevious <WEG>.

In my entire Life I have only actually Submitted to 2 other PPL. And I am primarily Dominant with others. Does that make me "Barely Submissive"? Or does that just make me Knowledgable enough and Experienced enough to Know the differences of what Is and what is not?

For me, "Barely Submissive" means I have walked and struggled through the Fire, and I have come out the other side Whole. It means I have the opportunity to continue to Grow and Learn, and I have and I will. Pain is sometimes the best Teacher <G>.

It is said that *when the Pupil is Ready, the Teacher Will Appear*. I believe and Know this to be True. It is also said * a Time and a Season for Everything*. Faith is the key to these doors then?

Respectfully~SidheWolf

Softly

11-10-2007, 07:06 PM

Wow, I have to say "thank you" to all of you. I know you couldn't have realized what this could mean to so many people when you started the thread, but from the responses, all I can say is "Wow".

Maybe it was the things I read as I grew up. The Gor novels as well as they hysterical, er...sorry, historical romances, but for some reason, I wanted my spouse to be strong in himself, but cherish me. I wished to be submissive and to have him bring out my desires, even if I didn't know it. I expected him to teach me. Maybe if we both hadn't been completely inexperienced. Although I had read the Gor novels and they had greatly appealed to me and whew! made me have some really hot dreams, I didn't think there were really people like that. I was young. What did I know?

After my wedding, my husband treated me like a child. Well, to a certain extent he probably needed to, but there was only do what I tell you to do and no consideration for me at all. For years, I was never enough. Not thin enough, too loud, not smart enough (grrr, smarter than him, dammit), didn't make enough money, was too emotional, etc. Never what he wanted even though he said he loved me. :(

I met someone online who introduced me gradually to some aspects of bondage and at first I was enthusiastic. Maybe this was what I had been wanting/needing. But as one relationship developed another deteriorated. I finally left my husband and moved out on my own.

On my own...what a terrifying thing that can be. Loneliness, and being faced with learning who you are. Then other things fell apart...I lost so many loved ones...family members that were like blows to my psyche. Then illness piled on that. I had to be strong. I was the only one there was now. How could I submit to someone else, even online, when I had to be strong all the time IRL?

Seeing this thread, I realize that maybe those glimpses into the submission weren't as far off base as I re-thought they were.

So thank you for your words and insights.

Wedjat

11-10-2007, 08:31 PM

Softly

11-11-2007, 08:57 AM

Softly, as a relative newbie myself, I understand some of what you're going through. I see a similarity to some of your past, too. My ex was just critical of EVERYTHING that either I did, or our daughter did. (Don't eat so fast!, Gee you eat so slow!) It gets very wearing after a while. I've had to struggle financially, but I think she and I were both more relaxed after we split. Good luck in your search and your personal growth - it sounds like your head is on straight and you're headed in the right direction.

Sadly, it seems to be a fact of life that the ones that hurt us the most are the ones that we love the most. If only people knew how fragile trust is. It's hard enough to get through life when everything is ok, but harder to do when you question your own judgement because of previous errors.

I said it better earlier, but due to login gremlins, lost the post.

Ozme52

11-11-2007, 01:28 PM

Sadly, it seems to be a fact of life that the ones that hurt us the most are the ones that we love the most. If only people knew how fragile trust is. It's hard enough to get through life when everything is ok, but harder to do when you question your own judgement because of previous errors.

Aint it the truth. Those who know us best hurt us the most. You wouldn't treat a stranger that badly... why do we tend to treat someone we love so illy?

I said it better earlier, but due to login gremlins, lost the post.
If it happens again, try using your 'back button' after logging back in... you may well find the original post still in the text box and can resubmit it from there. Worked for me when I had these problems... and try the "Remember Me" box when you log in.

Softly

11-11-2007, 04:09 PM

Aint it the truth. Those who know us best hurt us the most. You wouldn't treat a stranger that badly... why do we tend to treat someone we love so illy?

If it happens again, try using your 'back button' after logging back in... you may well find the original post still in the text box and can resubmit it from there. Worked for me when I had these problems... and try the "Remember Me" box when you log in. [/SIZE]

I am starting to believe that the reason we treat each other so illy is because of a lack of respect. When I was growing up we called adults Mr., Mrs., or Miss, and in the case of older adults, unless you were one yourself, you never addressed them by their first name...unless requested too. Now it's common place to address anyone by their first name, no matter how little or well you know that person. We were also taught to respect the rights of others, but that has long ago been thrown out the window. No one has manners anymore and no one respects any one else any more. I used to think that was good. Now I don't think so.

As for the lost post, I tried what you suggested, but my post had been sucked into that black void of computer prose. ;)

Echoes

01-17-2008, 08:35 AM

Well I really have to say thank you, after at first finding this topic and all the posts a bit overwhelming.
A lot of what I know is based on my first poly Master/slave relationship to which I was able to do a lot of watching and I remember clearly the slave commenting to me how I fight being a submissive, perhaps I was not one, that accepting came so easy and naturally to her...she knew her place immediately (:4: tell you something more about me too? )
Yet here most everyone is reaffirming my feelings also, the fear, independance, stubborness, fear of abandonment, problems and more so.

Thank you...I don't feel so far out in the middle of nowhere nor so odd.

tessa

03-26-2008, 03:59 PM

Tessa and All,

This is a Great topic I think
Thanks. You're kind to say so.

In my entire Life I have only actually Submitted to 2 other PPL. And I am primarily Dominant with others. Does that make me "Barely Submissive"? Or does that just make me Knowledgable enough and Experienced enough to Know the differences of what Is and what is not?

For me, "Barely Submissive" means I have walked and struggled through the Fire, and I have come out the other side Whole. It means I have the opportunity to continue to Grow and Learn, and I have and I will. Respectfully~SidheWolf
I got so much from your words here. Thanks again.

Seeing this thread, I realize that maybe those glimpses into the submission weren't as far off base as I re-thought they were.

So thank you for your words and insights.
And thank you right back for your comments. You didn't know how you'd be helping either, I'm guessing. :)

I’ve never thought about dom as high and sub as low as in hierarchy which is vertical but rather horizontal as in dom/sub in a power exchange. She may be at my feet but if I’m not in tune with her needs I may as well be at hers.
This was very well stated. I appreciate your thoughts here. My thanks to you as well.

tessa :wave: