View Full Version : and, but and commas
moptop
08-01-2007, 04:01 AM
I was always taught that you should not precede 'and' by a comma, since it is a conjunction which provides the space/break between two phrases/clauses in itself. Similarly for but, when it is in the middle of a sentence. Ruby certainly corrects to this form.
However (and I am told one should not start a sentence with however, nevertheless, etc., too - but personally I think that is rubbish and shall continue to do so, so there!), I believe it is more and more prevelant to use the comma before but and and where they are conjunctions: what do people think? Is this acceptable style, nowadays? Is it a change in the language, and (see!) we should all start doing it? Or is it just a really bad habit I have???
Thank you all for your opinions!
Dragon's muse
08-01-2007, 11:51 AM
It all depends on what style manual you look at. Some say use a comma some say not. As long as you are consistent, its not really anything to fret over.
Should you ever be published, they have editors that will put the commas in or take the commas out to conform to their standards.
rose
Rhabbi
08-01-2007, 11:54 AM
In other words, do whatever you want because the editor will fix it the way they like anyway.
cariad
08-02-2007, 05:06 AM
I was taught to the same school as you moptop, but I have since been told by professional writers that the rules are there to be kept, unless delibrately broken.
cariad
jeanne
08-02-2007, 05:13 AM
I was also taught to never precede a conjunction with a comma. It's one of those little things that drives me crazy to see, along with bad spelling and the use of "apostrophe s" for plurals. I have gone so far as to walk into a business and tell them that their sign is wrong. Perhaps I need to get a life...LOL.
gagged_Louise
08-02-2007, 05:18 AM
Not being native to the English language but fairly fluent in it, I'd say it's a matter of the level of style you're aiming for (and we have similar queries in Swedish). If a comma goes in before and, yet or but as phrase conjunctions, it comes out a bit more elevated - yes, could I even say it sounds kind of super-elevated, as if the writer is trying a little extra to achieve slow and imposing prose. Wasn't there a time in the 18th-19th centuries when it was more of a rule for high-style written language to give that comma before and etc?
I wouldn't use such commas within dialogue or even in inner monologue-style retelling.
cariad
08-02-2007, 05:48 AM
On the matter of apostrophes, am I the only person who thinks it should be Instructors' Place and Writers' Block?
cariad
gagged_Louise
08-02-2007, 05:55 AM
Well, writer's block (with just one writer) is this familiar byword for the author out of touch with his stream of writing, so if you put Writers' Block, the pun is half lost. Instead you get the less cheerful image of a cell block full of aspiring (submissive?) writers in hobble ankle chains.
Dragon's muse
08-02-2007, 08:26 AM
On the matter of apostrophes, am I the only person who thinks it should be Instructors' Place and Writers' Block?
cariad
its always bothered me, too.
cariad
08-02-2007, 09:43 AM
Well, I have changed Instructors' and a few other things. I can see Louise's point about the play on words with Writer's. Basically, it is 'wrong' both ways, and the pedant who lurks somewhere in me is still inclined to change it, but will be interested in other views.
cariad
Clevernick
08-02-2007, 01:53 PM
cariad, are you the one who fixed the spelling of "begining" too? Thanks if so.
cariad
08-02-2007, 10:24 PM
Yep, if there are any more out there please let me know.
I was always taught that you should not precede 'and' by a comma, since it is a conjunction which provides the space/break between two phrases/clauses in itself. Similarly for but, when it is in the middle of a sentence. Ruby certainly corrects to this form.
I do, don't I? Although, there are times when I don't.
In my business writing, the style chosen often depends on the style guide that is preferred by my clients.
Rose is right on target. Pick one method and use it consistantly.
However (and I am told one should not start a sentence with however, nevertheless, etc., too - but personally I think that is rubbish and shall continue to do so, so there!), I believe it is more and more prevelant to use the comma before but and and where they are conjunctions: what do people think? Is this acceptable style, nowadays? Is it a change in the language, and (see!) we should all start doing it? Or is it just a really bad habit I have???
Thank you all for your opinions!
Who says you can't start a sentence with "however, nevertheless", etc? Strunk and White give their approvals to do so. ;)
Well, I have changed Instructors' and a few other things. I can see Louise's point about the play on words with Writer's. Basically, it is 'wrong' both ways, and the pedant who lurks somewhere in me is still inclined to change it, but will be interested in other views.
I can even see it being named, The Writers Block, as in a place for more than one writer.
Clevernick
08-06-2007, 05:10 PM
Consistency is never my strong point, unfortunately--I'll always need an editor. But with the series comma before 'and', I tend to write as I'd read it aloud, for that particular instance.
I suspect one reason people have complimented the "flow" of my writing is that I hear myself reading aloud as I write it. If I put a pause in, a comma goes there. If prosody, rhythm, and flow require it, then a comma is born.
Yes, that was a deliberate example. In my case, though, I almost always insert the optional commas. Not for reasons of consistency, but because the voicing feels rushed without them.
Hi Ruby!
Rhabbi
08-06-2007, 05:12 PM
Consistency is never my strong point, unfortunately--I'll always need an editor. But with the series comma before 'and', I tend to write as I'd read it aloud, for that particular instance.
I suspect one reason people have complimented the "flow" of my writing is that I hear myself reading aloud as I write it. If I put a pause in, a comma goes there. If prosody, rhythm, and flow require it, then a comma is born.
Yes, that was a deliberate example. In my case, though, I almost always insert the optional commas. Not for reasons of consistency, but because the voicing feels rushed without them.
Hi Ruby!
In Word you can actually set the options to check for commas at the end of the list and either always require them, or always reject them. I use this to help me with my consistancy in writing.
Clevernick
08-06-2007, 05:16 PM
In Word you can actually set the options to check for commas at the end of the list and either always require them, or always reject them. I use this to help me with my consistancy in writing.
Cool idea and very quickly offered! That's a Word feature I didn't know about. My colleague also recently pointed out that it's possible to make Word autocorrect your pet errors too. I love that idea.
Thanks, Rhabbi! Word can now become an assistant Grammar Nazi second class....
Hi Clevernick!
Great idea, Rhabbi.
cariad
08-08-2007, 12:13 AM
*creeping in and hiding the writer's' block's' apostrophes.*
*hiding them under Ruby's paddle and waits to see what happens*
Dragon's muse
08-08-2007, 04:49 AM
We've been robbed! Our Apostrophe is missing. Call 911! Alert Scotland Yard! Bring in Walker, Texas Ranger!
cariad
08-08-2007, 05:58 AM
*points to Ruby*
She stole them Miss, was all 'er idea.
Hmmmm...
I suggested the name be "The Writers Block"
without the "the", it does look like it's missing something.
Another alternative might be:
"A Place for Writers"
I'm sure if we put our heads together and come up with a few more names, we could put this to a vote.
Clevernick
08-08-2007, 11:40 AM
Fish swim
Birds fly
Writers block
yup seems all write to me.
Dragon's muse
08-08-2007, 12:02 PM
Hmmmm...
I suggested the name be "The Writers Block"
without the "the", it does look like it's missing something.
Another alternative might be:
"A Place for Writers"
I'm sure if we put our heads together and come up with a few more names, we could put this to a vote.
Smut Scribblers Anonymous
cariad
08-08-2007, 02:27 PM
Smut Scribblers Anonymous
Verbal Creationists?
H Dean
08-08-2007, 02:34 PM
"The House of Dean" has a nice ring to it.
cariad
08-08-2007, 02:38 PM
There is a house in the library
They call the House of Dean
And it's been the ruin of many a poor scribe
And God I know I'm one
Oh mother tell your children
Not to do what I have done
Spend your lives in sin and misery
In the House of that mean ol' Dean
H Dean
08-08-2007, 03:13 PM
This is how it should be!
moptop
08-09-2007, 04:21 AM
Instead you get the less cheerful image of a cell block full of aspiring (submissive?) writers in hobble ankle chains.
This is a less cheerful image? Sounds fun to me!!!
Geasa
08-29-2007, 03:14 AM
Looks around, this is my first post as well.
My biggest Grammer problem is ... US spell checkers, or spelling. Drives me nuts.
Colour - has a u in it. Any time I have web page issues first thing I check is how I have spelled colour.
As a really bad speller, it is the one thing that can kill a story for me. I read so fast that a paragraph down, my brain goes what the! Leshes or something was the last one.
Weirdly, I was always taught that a comma is used around a part of a sentence that means the sentence can be read without it. I do use it before and, but it is a question of flow for but. A long time ago, in the same place, I was taught that a full stop is three seconds, and a comma is one so when you read your work, try that. I find it often calls for massive rewrites.