Has anyone read Marquis de Sade ?

[Nadia]

"Philosophy in the Bedroom" specifically ?

Out of pure boredom, I have found out that it's now being published again, at least in some countries over seas. I don't think it's been published for a long , long time. Has it ever been available in the United States ?

My first experience with this book was back in 8th grade when my best friend and I stumbled upon it in the local library. It was in Russian and I doubt the librarians even knew what forbidden treasure they had ! We giggled and blushed all the way through it, but I think I can credit this book with making me a twisted person that I am today.

Well, not really THAT twisted , just a little bit. The book disappeared from the library short time afterwards and I have looked for it for years. I think De Sade is making a comeback. Recently I discovered a full text in English on one website, and some other Marquis classics like Justine and 120 days of Sodom.

Anyway, is anyone else familiar with his works ? I'm wondering what people think ? I realize that we live in different times and the writings of De Sade can be considered mild compared to stories on this site. So do you think De Sade works " lost their edge" and people are not shocked by the anymore, so do they still have their classic appeal ? Personally, I think they still remain the best work of BDSM fiction ever.

Just curious what people think.

[Curtis]

I've read most of "Justine" (I skimmed it for the good parts), and I'd have to say that it certainly holds up better than anything else pre-1950 that I've read, with the single exception of "A Man With a Maid". The Olympia Press collection of "The Pearl" has a few...uhm...pearls in it, but most of it is unreadable and that's about the best that can be said for the pre-"Story of O" era. "Justine" actually reads more like a story written in the 1950s than one from 1791.

(Once again, couldn't get the damn smilies to work!)

[Lord Douche]

:( Well, after a quick search, I don't have any de Sade in my eBooks collection. Time to add to the library!
LD

[Nadia]

Originally posted by Curtis
I've read most of "Justine" (I skimmed it for the good parts), and I'd have to say that it certainly holds up better than anything else pre-1950 that I've read, with the single exception of "A Man With a Maid".


I think it's interesting that you mention how De Sade works hold up well, even in present times.
One thing I noticed ( at least about myself) is how the more BDSM fiction I read - the less it turns me on. It's almost as if I'm becoming numb to the content. And with so much BDSM stories now available fast and free, some story contents stop eliciting excitement at all.

Marquis de Sade , on the other hand, has always been " the taboo-est taboo to ever taboo". A lot of people have never read his works but consider him the ultimate master of sadistic writing. But " Philosophy in the Bedroom" is not even half as violent as a lot of stuff written now. It's sadistic, extremely sexual , it's even snuff - but it still reads milder. Like A LOT milder.

I think it's a reason while it still reads well in present days. It's something that has been taboo for so many ages, and now that BDSM is rampant online - de Sade is still a dirty little secret. So to find his works , and to discover them for the first time - it's pleasurable. It must really tickle someone's mind to finally read "the master ".
But it is just my opinion, feel free to disagree :-)

Ok, off my soapbox , then !

N.

[Fox]

There are several reasons for the longstanding appeal of the Marquis de Sade, not the least of which is the quality of his work.
Just by virtue of the word “sadism”, he is immortalized.
He is a fascinating historical character. As I understand it, he is also misunderstood – his reputation overshadows his reality.

I am not an historian, so I may have some facts wrong, (feel free to correct any errors I have made)

but here goes:

One must look at de Sade in the context of the times as well as in what he wrote.
From what I have read and seen about him, de Sade was an anarchist, a nihilist, who delighted in tearing down the taboos of the French court. This at a time that the rule of the King was “absolute” as long as the King had the army and the Church behind him. He believed and practiced that all men are free and should not be subject to restrictions or laws – at that time, beggars were hanged for stealing bread. He was also a hedonistic spoiled brat who was reviled by almost all sectors of French society.

Anyway …. de Sade’s writing pales when compared with the horrors and excesses of contemporary French society. He extolled physical / sexual pleasure at a time that there were many sexual taboos yet court intrigue and “les liaisons dangereux” were commonplace. The Church was at its most powerful in France during the early years of de Sade’s life; the aristocracy at its most decadent and depraved; the mob mentality that seized the country during The Terror was even more so.

Interestingly enough, de Sade was a contemporary of Napoleon, Jefferson, Nelson, et al – late 18th and early 19th century. He died in 1814.

His internment in the Bastille was political ( a lettre de cachet from his wealthy mother-in-law) , and he was one of the handful of prisoners who were actually in the Bastille when it was stormed by the mob. Somehow although he was (a) aristocracy (b) a known criminal, he managed to be overlooked during The Terror, and his rather messy life continued. Again, he was later arrested and committed for publishing his stories - there was a very conservative , repressive side to French society during and after The Terror, and the Code Napoleon was just being instituted as common law. de Sade died in captivity.

What de Sade’s life did was provide a focal point for subsequent scholars. When it came time to coin a phrase, “sadism” was minted (masochism comes from Masoch, but I forget why – I guess I should be punished).

I have read some of his work. It is not surprising that it still holds up – after all, we still read Moliere, Voltaire, Hobbes, Dickens and others from that and earlier eras.

A current biography can be found here:

http://neilschaeffer.com/sade/

I have not read it.

For information about the man who gave his name to "masochism", try this site:

http://homepage.newschool.edu/~schlemoj/imptopia/sacher-masoch.html



This reminds of the following:

A true masochist says "hurt me, kill me"
a true sadist says "no"

[Curtis]

And there you have why von Sacher-Masoch is associated with masochism. Sacher-Masoch wrote stories with himself as a male sub to female Dommes. Whether these stories were actually autobiographical or not, they were intended to be read as such.

(As long as I'm here, lovely and poigniant choice of Avatar, Nadia.)

[boccaccio2000g]

Originally posted by Curtis
And there you have why von Sacher-Masoch is associated with masochism. Sacher-Masoch wrote stories with himself as a male sub to female Dommes. Whether these stories were actually autobiographical or not, they were intended to be read as such.




They were biographical in spirit. Leopold von Sacher-Masoch was an interesting and very literate man who wrote a number of stories and novels. He was also a decorated war hero. But he is best remembered, of course, for his famous "Venus in Furs."

Curious that this should come up just now. Sacher-Masoch was a contemporary of the fictional characters in the Jade Pavilion, and appears very briefly in the installment I'm working on right now as a past interviewee of Dr Kauffman, (a young Viennese doctor transplanted to the far east) who is interested in the workings of the mind, obsessions, and so on.


Boccaccio

[j]

Since it is my first post ever, an homage to Sade is a clear duty. (in France we say 'Sade', not 'de Sade'.

As many posters stressed, his works aged pretty gracefully - at least the scandalous ones. The unique blend of outrageous yet challenging philosophy, lively adventure, incredibly shocking sex and elegant writing was never equalled. However, judged by the current standards of BDSM erotic literature, he is an outsider: he strives to squick, and he always succeeds.

(an aside: I've developed my own 'story code' for my own modest story collection. It is aimed at screening unpleasant themes rather than at pinpointing 'good' ones. Here it is:

Everyone has her limits. A reader is 'squicked' when she comes across
something which others may find fun, but which offend, hurt or bore her.
The [S] [Q] [U] [I] [C] [K] warning system marks books which, with the
following themes central/substantially present, are read at the reader's peril.

[S]nuff the art of erotic murder and/or execution
[Q]ueers men and/or boys making do without the girls
[U]nderage self-explanatory, the commonest squick around
[I]ncest close relatives getting even closer
[C]ritters horses, dogs, rodents and other pets
[K]aviare what most people would call shit

Well... the only author who consistently sets all bells ringing is Sade, which should tell you something.)

Reading Sade unwarned is a sure way to be vaccinated against BDSM for life, quite the contrary to the gentle, sweetly enticing seduction wrought by Story of O upon many of us (myself included).

This being said, I happen to have file versions of his 'scandalous' books (Juliette, La Nouvelle Justine, les 120 Jours de Sodome, La Philosophie dans le Boudoir). They are in French; what I call 'learn French the HARD way! I have a good translation of the 120 days too. Warning... it is the ugliest book of all. A masterpiece written in an outhouse and a slaughterhouse.

[Spitman]

I liked your explanation of SQUICK. However it illustrates a problem. Material that sets off a SQUICK alarm does not always actually contain the elements concerned.

I can illustrate this by reference to my recently posted story: 'Checkout'. Checkout is coded as nc (non-consensual), but there is actually nothing nc in it. Checkout is about the limits of consensuality, volition, persuasion and all those related things. It is coded as nc because it involves physical violation that results in death, but that is not the same thing at all.

Checkout is also coded as 'snuff', but according to your definition, it doesn't contain snuff either, as there is no kind of murder or violent execution. People who enjoy violent nc would not like it at all. It portrays how excitement, and particularly sexual excitement impel us to do certain things in spite of having a certain knowledge of the consequences.

I have also read Sade and Masoch, but in French one of my favourites was Cecile Saint Laurent, whose Encore Clotilde was one of the most erotic works involving bdsm I have ever read. If you can tell me what kind of knot he called a 'double clef' you will be my friend for life. I translated it as a clove hitch, in my simple way, after failing to find a better translation.

If that was your first post, I was seriously impressed, and I hope we will have a lot more to talk about!

[j]

Kudos for the clove hitch. That's exactly that. It's two half-hitches (demi-clefs), one half-hitch being the simplest knot ever.

Naval vocabulary being another hobby of mine... ;^)

Obviously my 'SQUICK' system is for private consumption. Its purpose is not to help a reader find a book she likes, but screen out books that will DISTRESS her. For example I don't take into account nc, mc, because people can be bored, but hardly enraged or disgusted by such themes. And I did use stricter definitions than you seem to favor. Just any murder or execution does not qualify for 'snuff', it has to be written as an erotic component.

For example, 'Feeding Bootsie' would rate a [S] [C] because the girl's termination is an obvious subject of mirth for her guards; and the 'c' for Critter is there because Bootsie has a definitely naughty mind, despite his primary fixation on food!

Cecil (no 'e') St Laurent is the pseudo of a conservative novelist, Jacques Laurent.

http://www.livreenpoche.com/auteur-107.html

He did write the Clotilde series, which is much steamier than his other bodice-ripper series, 'Caroline Chérie'. I had some good cums with it when it was the steamiest book I could find in my parents' house. It's no porn by any stretch of the word, but he had a knack in developing situations of incredible perversity.

Thank you for making me blush ;^)

[Nadia]

I'm loving the SQUICK system - it's great !

I completely agree about 120 days of Sodom - it contains some of the nastiest stuff I have ever laid my eyes on. But I only read an excerpt , so I can't really judge.

But " Philosophy in the Bedroom" is one of his "prettier" tales. I think that a story of Eugenie being deflowered and perverted reads like a classic love story.
Although it is oficially in the snuff category because one of the characters is infected with syphilis purposefully and will die eventually. It is certainly a more subtle death penality than spitting or crucifying BDSM scene.

So it's really different. I doubt that Sade can singlehandedly turn people off BDSM. It really depends which one of his books people read first.

* Thanks to Curtis for an avatar compliment !

[j]

Nadia, like you I love 'Philosophy in the Bedroom'. But did you lend sufficient attention to the longish political pamphlet it contains, under the title 'Français, encore un effort. pour être républicains...' ('French, there's still work to do to be a Republic'.

Most readers skip it for the juicier parts, but it is still as shocking today as it was then (the book was written after the Revolution started, when it was still in fashion among the depraved nobility.) A systematic demolition of all values that you may cherish... Try it!

It is not his eroticism which sent Sade back to jail and the madhouse... Porn was quite an industry at the time... 'Fanny Hill' has SM and gay scenes galore... but his systematic anarchism was seen, rightly, as very disruptive.

[Spitman]

Well, as promised, you qualify as a friend for life! Especially as we seem to have a common interest in naval vocabulary, quite apart from our mutual enjoyment of French erotica.

Caroline Cherie played a very similar part in my early life, but I never knew that Jacques Laurent was the same author! Thank you for that. There are parallels there also.

I agree with you on the classification of the Bootsie story, which (not making any excuses) was an exercise in understanding what the artist had in mind when he drew the original picture. And you agreed that Bootsie had a naughty look about him!

Checkout is also an exercise, but of a different kind. It transports the occupants of the urban office into the land of fantasy and imagination. Are they real? Is my Amsterdam real? Decide for yourself.

I also agree with you that de Sade cannot turn people off bdsm. I see your point about which book they read first, but what really counts is what was already there that de Sade triggered. If nothing was there, it was pretty easy to be turned off!

[Nadia]

Originally posted by jeanne
Nadia, like you I love 'Philosophy in the Bedroom'. But did you lend sufficient attention to the longish political pamphlet it contains, under the title 'Français, encore un effort. pour être républicains...' ('French, there's still work to do to be a Republic'.


Oh God, no. French politics never really turned me on as much as the sex scene, KWIM ?
Although those french monarchs were some sexed up bastards, huh ? All those love affairs and intrigues...

[Morrighan]

A movie about the Marquis de Sade starring Geoffrey Rush, Joaquin Phoenix, and Kate Winslet. It focuses on his time in the mental instution, and I'm not sure how historically accurate it is. However the theme--the power of a quill, i.e. written word--is highly interesting to a writer.

[Mothbrad]

Sorry to bump this slightly old thread, but I was wondering whether anyone knew of an online, English version of either of Sade's 'sister' books (Juliette/Justine). I have 120 Days, and it's nice to have on computer, and I'd especially like it in txt format, or a format that is easy to search.

Thanks
Mothbrad

[j]

If you want the French texts, email me.


Sorry to bump this slightly old thread, but I was wondering whether anyone knew of an online, English version of either of Sade's 'sister' books (Juliette/Justine). I have 120 Days, and it's nice to have on computer, and I'd especially like it in txt format, or a format that is easy to search.

Thanks
Mothbrad

[Mothbrad]

If you want the French texts, email me.
Thank you for the lovely offer, but alas I only did two years of French at school many years ago ;)

[j]

Well from your photo, you retained the essence of French culture!


Thank you for the lovely offer, but alas I only did two years of French at school many years ago ;)

[bardbin]

http://www.supervert.com/elibrary/sade.html

has 120 Days of Sodom & Philosophy in the Bedroom available for download in pdf format.

[redEva]

Thank you bardbin.

[Dododecapod]

MANY thanks, Bardbin. I've never been able to find a copy of 120 Days before.

[littleslut]

[QUOTE=Nadia]

Recently I discovered a full text in English on one website, and some other Marquis classics like Justine and 120 days of Sodom.
QUOTE]
what website did you find it on? im quite interested in reading

[pagan switch]

I actually have a copy of Justine, which is the only de Sade I've read. I guess what struck me is that it was just a bit unrealistic in parts, to say the least. For example, a very large penis during anal sex with no lube? The abrasions would have hurt him almost as much as it did her.

Justine is like a submissive's journey through BDSM with many different doms, although she is always portrayed as being unwilling (and don't some players get off on pretending that the sub is unwilling?). It's a like a grand tour in a way, through every kink de Sade could think of, including even decapitation. Not surprisingly, many of the fetishes are still very much with us today, while others are still quite rare.

And of course, decapitation is quite illegal and not a viable part of the BDSM world. But just imagine if you got with a dom, a blind date perhaps, and then found out that he meant to really hurt you, maybe even kill you. It suddenly seems more relevant, doesn't it?

I haven't read O, but a friend once told me he thought O was partially inspired by the theme of Justine bouncing from dom(s) to dom(s).

[charly]

hi.
i read a few novels and other things from him a few years ago. in spanish you can get all his work.
i admired him very much when i was younger. but if you look for erotic fiction novels and stories dealing with bondage you can find things much better then his novels.
sorry for the spelling mistakes but i´m learning english thanks to this site.
bye