Romanticising BDSM Relationships [Archive]

BDSM_Tourguide

08-19-2002, 07:40 PM

I don't often find things about this lifestyle that just crawl under my skin and stay there, but every now and then I find one or two things I just cannot swallow, no matter how hard I try. One such thing is the overt romanticising of bdsm relationships.

What do I mean by this? Well, several things really. I'll list them in no specific order.

Titles: Why are people in BDSM so focused on titles? Are we really so insecure as to HAVE to be called Master or Sir all the time? I understand that it is probably a sign of discipline and control that we have our submissives call us by our suggested title, but do we have to be so fixated on them that we require EVERY submissive to call us Sir? or Master? Do people feel the need to exert their will over every submissive everywhere? or is it, perhaps, just a matter of ego?

Other Titles: How many of us have been to chat rooms and seen submissives call their doms or masters "My Lord" or "Milord" or some other equally outdated term? Thoes terms were reserved for peasants in the dark ages referring to their King, Duke, or other leader/landowner. The last I noticed, we moved out of the Dark Ages and into a more "civilized" time. If you believe that sort of thing. We no longer have a King, we don't have Dukes, we have landlords and landowners, but I don't think we call them Lords anymore. So, knock it off, will you?

Bows and Curtsies: Since I already know I'm going to piss off people with this one, I will just go ahead and get it out of the way quickly. Bowing and curtseying were used by noblemen and women during formal dances. The man bowed to the woman and the woman curtseyed to the man at the beginning and end of a dance. The only other time I am aware of the use of bows and curtsies are when a host or hostess greeted his or her guests at the doorway. As far as I am aware, neither a bow nor a curtsey has any inkling of a place in BDSM. It's something someone made up in a chat room once that they thought looked good. Yay! Go internet. Gotta love it.

Gifts and Essences: Okay, here goes the biggie. I better just crack my knuckles, start typing and get my piece said. The screaming will commence later, I'm sure. I'm sure that novelists have many romantic fantasies about domination and submission. They're great to read. Personally, I have read many books about the subject and find them entertaining. Fictitious, but entertaining.
I don't think submission and dominance are gifts given to people. By the definition a gift is something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation. I don't know how everyone else feels about their relationships, but I personally would like some acknowledgement of what I am contributing to my relationship. I'm sure my partner would, too. The truth is: Relationships, by their very nature, are contractual agreements between two people. It doesn't matter if you're in a vanilla relationship, a marriage, or a BDSM relationship, you enter into a contract, a mutually beneficial exchange between two parties where compensations is expected. The fact of the matter is that you're not getting gifts, you're in a relationship. It is what it is, there's no need to sugar-coat it.
I have also seen many submissives say that "eveything they are is because of their master." I find sentences like these to be disturbing to the point of psychotic megalomania. Your master is not god. He did not create you. He did not breathe life into your body. He did not provide light from the universe. He is not responsible for the dispensation of your cosmic essence. He is also not responsible for whether you live or die. He cannot bring about the end of your existence. And he cannot tell you forget about being human.
The sheer enormity of the ego from the dominant and the lack of self-respect from the submissive in statements like these are disturbing. To say that someone is responsible for everything you are shows such a lack of self-respect that I would be concerned for anyone's well-being that said them. If I had a friend that said that, I would be concerned they were going to go home and commit suicide.
Remember, submissives out there, you are people, not puppies, not doormats, not substandard creatures. Have a little backbone and act like people. You're not in some fantasy, storybook relationship, you're in a real-life relationship with real people. This is not Counter-Earth. This is not the Island of Eden. This is real life.
And to you dominants out there reading this, take it to heart. For, one day that "little one" is going to figure out what the real world is like. "This girl" is going to realize you don't own a tarn, you can't make ka-la-na wine, and paga is beer. Treat her with respect, show her you love her and care for her, unless you really don't and don't have that kind of relationship, and finally give back to her as much as she gives to you. Give more. She'll like it, I promise.

Pooka

08-20-2002, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide

Titles: Why are people in BDSM so focused on titles? Are we really so insecure as to HAVE to be called Master or Sir all the time? I understand that it is probably a sign of discipline and control that we have our submissives call us by our suggested title, but do we have to be so fixated on them that we require EVERY submissive to call us Sir? or Master? Do people feel the need to exert their will over every submissive everywhere? or is it, perhaps, just a matter of ego?

Oh I love this already! Yes.

I've always had a hard time having to refer to other people with such honorifics and if ever I was in some forum that demanded it, I left. I give my loyalty and respect only to those that have earned it. I do not confer that automatically to others whom I don't know.

And yes, _some_ people want something for nothing, want the unearned. A 'true' Master/Dom/Whatever doesn't have demand submission from anyone.

Other Titles: How many of us have been to chat rooms and seen submissives call their doms or masters "My Lord" or "Milord" or some other equally outdated term? Thoes terms were reserved for peasants in the dark ages referring to their King, Duke, or other leader/landowner. The last I noticed, we moved out of the Dark Ages and into a more "civilized" time. If you believe that sort of thing. We no longer have a King, we don't have Dukes, we have landlords and landowners, but I don't think we call them Lords anymore. So, knock it off, will you?

Awwww! You're so unromantic! *grin*

I find those titles appealing during a role play session for sure. It immediately sets a mood that hearkens back to the days when Men were indeed King of their own castles. :) Men have been so emasculated by our culture that I find the sparing use of these honorics kind of nice -- but in certain applications only. I often tease my husband by calling him Lord and Master but even as I tease him about that, I do acknowledge that he is at least king of the castle when he comes home. *grin*

Gifts and Essences: [...] The truth is: Relationships, by their very nature, are contractual agreements between two people. It doesn't matter if you're in a vanilla relationship, a marriage, or a BDSM relationship, you enter into a contract, a mutually beneficial exchange between two parties where compensations is expected. The fact of the matter is that you're not getting gifts, you're in a relationship. It is what it is, there's no need to sugar-coat it.

I have to agree here. Completely, and it is refreshing to find someone else that understands this aspect about the relationship!

I have also seen many submissives say that "eveything they are is because of their master." I find sentences like these to be disturbing to the point of psychotic megalomania.[...]
The sheer enormity of the ego from the dominant and the lack of self-respect from the submissive in statements like these are disturbing. To say that someone is responsible for everything you are shows such a lack of self-respect that I would be concerned for anyone's well-being that said them.

I cannot agree more! Yet, I don't view this as totally negative in some cases. In today's culture, there are a lot of very emotionally damaged people and sometimes, a lot of healing can be brought about through a strong relationship based on dominance and submission. Now, the dominant partner cannot 'cure' the submissive partner by ordering it, but the submissive can gain strength and self-respect via the loving guidance of a dominant that understands what he is getting into. But it is about a give and take relationship where both partners are driven to explore themselves and move forward in a positive way. Sadly, I don't see it happen that often, or they just never spent time on any forum I was on at the time, which is very likely. LOL!

Great article!

Pooka

BDSM_Tourguide

08-20-2002, 09:51 AM

I'm glad you liked the article. I doubt everyone is going to see it as positively as you did, but it's a good start at least. Thanks for the feedback.

I did read one thing I felt I should comment on though.

Awwww! You're so unromantic! *grin* I find those titles appealing during a role play session for sure.

Unfortunately, with the birth and evolution of the internet, BDSM has become a role-playing game for many people. They can come online, act out whatever fantasy they have, and go back to their real lives in relative safety and with very little effort. It's an interesting system, if not a little counter-productive.

I was going to say more. Like, I had this neat little diatribe all worked out in my head. But I seem to have forgotten most of it, so I will leave it alone for now and come back to it later. ;)

flower{J}

08-20-2002, 10:47 AM

:) First let me say that i think You both are very wise. To even my surprise, there is no sarcasm implied with that sentence.

my r/l boyfriend and Master, have just entered into a D/s relationship and trust me, what you read in books, and see on the internet is just a little bit different than what happens in O/our home, especially when i have a headache or am not in a good mood. i will be the first to admit that W/we are not the poster couple for BDSM by any means.

i think it boils down to an individual couple's wants and desires. i also believe that BDSM guidelines are necessary, as just that "guidelines". In the beginning, W/we all need information and resources. For me personally, the internet has been a great place for information, ideas, support, etc. Following that, each couple has to decide what works for T/them and to what extent T/they choose to play out the fantasy and/or lifestyle.

i will however vent about one thing.... i do have a problem with being in a BDSM chatroom and being corrected, on my salutations or my typing, by an "online only" Master. i believe that if anyone has the authority to correct a sub, much less in public, it should be that subs Master. i don't think that the foundation of BDSM will be shaken OR fold, if i don't type Sir or You.

Ok, so i never said that i didn't ramble. Hopefully, i will not get slammed too hard on my thoughts, as it is my opinion only.

:D
flower{J}

BDSM_Tourguide

08-20-2002, 11:13 AM

I think it's very hard for people, even in a 24/7 relationship, to maintain a strictly BDSM atmosphere all the time. I know that my wife and I take downtime every now and then just to kind of cool off and reprise what we're doing and where we want to go next.

And don't EVEN try to get my wife to do the BDSM thing around "that time of the month." Surest way in the world to get hit back. LOL

You actually brought up a point that I should have written in that article. I guess I forgot it at the time, because I didn't have an example of it smacking me in the head.

The capitalization of You, My, Mine and Sir as required by a dominant tends to show me low self-esteem. Worse is when they require it from every single submissive and slave that they meet. In my opinion, it just shows an inferiority complex and they probably should go for some therapy to a BDSM-friendly psychologist.

I don't require anyone to capitalize anything about me except my name. After all, it's just type. Big deal. If the person were speaking to you and called you sir, would you ask them if they meant capital Sir?

I practiced and researched BDSM for a long time before I started online and things are so different online from my real-life, it's probably not even funny.

An example: To be honest, I didn't know about collaring a submissive for any reason other than to have a place to attach a rope or lead to the neck until I started coming online. I had read about collaring slaves in the Gor books and I had probably read about submissives being collared, but never really took it to mind as it had never entered into any of my relationships to that point.

Needless to say, when I did come online, I was a little confused as to the concept of the collar. Which led to a few interesting dilemmas. Fortunately, I was able to read the "accepted BDSM websites" and correct my faux-pas before I made myself look like too much of an idiot.

So, Xarine (my wife, not her real name) and I do have a collar with a little tag on it that says she belongs to me, but she never really wears it anymore except to public functions where we might meet people from online. Mostly, she wears a bracelet I bought her on ebay. It's a simple piece of silver, but it is a representation of her commitment to me. And that's all a collar is anyway, right?

Well, well, this is turning into another novel. I should be paying Day Three this much attention, but I'm kind of having fun being on the boards today. :)

Bear with me, people. The coffee will wear off soon. :)

Pooka

08-20-2002, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by flower{J}
[B]
my r/l boyfriend and Master, have just entered into a D/s relationship and trust me, what you read in books, and see on the internet is just a little bit different than what happens in O/our home, especially when i have a headache or am not in a good mood. i will be the first to admit that W/we are not the poster couple for BDSM by any means.

LOL! In my time, I was never the poster submissive either. :) I'm still not, but our relationship has totally evolved in the years we have been together. We started out with a fantasy type BDSM kind of arrangement and ultimately concluded that just wasn't us. And let me tell you, we did it by the book, sort of. LOL!

However, the funny thing is that what it is now is something that very closely resembles a TPE, but without all the crap. LOL! We're not into whips and chains and collars, play parties, and all that, but we do have very strong elements of D/S and of course, we do enjoy kinky sex. *grin* But I don't live chained to the bed awaiting my Lord and Master's arrival, waiting for him to tell me what to wear, how to kneel, or if I'm allowed to pee!

i think it boils down to an individual couple's wants and desires. i also believe that BDSM guidelines are necessary, as just that "guidelines". In the beginning, W/we all need information and resources. For me personally, the internet has been a great place for information, ideas, support, etc. Following that, each couple has to decide what works for T/them and to what extent T/they choose to play out the fantasy and/or lifestyle.

Amen to that! I went from knowing ZERO (absolutely literally!) about BDSM (in fact, it was a shock to me that people really, actually did this stuff!) to basically going full circle both in my knowledge and in my experience.

And I recall quite vividly the 'one true way' syndrome that I came across everywhere. It was this contest to see who did it more correctly, intensely, more like some novel or another, etc.

What I finally concluded (like you Flower :) is that any relationship is between the individuals involved and isn't open to judgment by others. Relationships are personal.

The other tangent to this is interesting as well. Many people spent great amounts of time trying to justify their choices. I understand why now and years ago, I did the same for a while. What is there to justify? LOL! But I did feel terribly guilty about my 'kink', intensely guilty and even ashamed in the beginning and as I learned both from the web and in real life, I realized I had put myself through all kinds of grief for nothing. LOL! Many of the arguments tried to 'prove' that men should have dominance (in the case of Goreans, some 'natural order') over women. Or worse, that women were somehow inferior to men. Bullshit. :)

However, there seems to be an almost natural dynamic between men and women that does lend itself to a dominant/submissive relationship -- BUT ... not in the way I've seen in practised on the Net.

I do not feel inferior to my husband, yet he is certainly the dominant partner in our relationship. He has his role, I have mine and they happen to mesh quite nicely. I'm not quite sure how to explain it. LOL!

i will however vent about one thing.... i do have a problem with being in a BDSM chatroom and being corrected, on my salutations or my typing, by an "online only" Master. i believe that if anyone has the authority to correct a sub, much less in public, it should be that subs Master. i don't think that the foundation of BDSM will be shaken OR fold, if i don't type Sir or You.

LOL! I agree and even back then, I used to ignore them completely and go on with what I was doing. I answer to no one but myself and 'my Master'. I guess that is why I haven't been to any BDSM related site in years except of course for this one. But I'm just here for the stories. ;)

Ok, so i never said that i didn't ramble. Hopefully, i will not get slammed too hard on my thoughts, as it is my opinion only.

I should write a story about the art of slamming on-line masters in a submissve way. LOL! Sad to say, many of them miss the nuances of a good, submissive, sweet sounding slam. Ah well, I'm probably too rusty at it anyway as I haven't had to use those things since I left BDSM circles.

Pooka

Pooka

08-20-2002, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
[B]I'm glad you liked the article. I doubt everyone is going to see it as positively as you did, but it's a good start at least. Thanks for the feedback.

*grin* I did like it, and it sure needs to be said somewhere! I went and dutifully made all the mistakes a sub could make when I jumped in with eyes closed and feet stretched out for a landing!

But it was a great experience that led to where I am now, so I can't complain too much. :)

[COLOR=darkblue]Unfortunately, with the birth and evolution of the internet, BDSM has become a role-playing game for many people. They can come online, act out whatever fantasy they have, and go back to their real lives in relative safety and with very little effort. It's an interesting system, if not a little counter-productive.

Do you mean role playing only on-line? I see it as having limited value, best in the early stages of exploration but I was never into that so I'm not sure what it entails or what the people are like. My only experience comes from various (now defunct for the most part) discussion groups usually composed of people living some manner of BDSM lifestyle. And lots of flame wars about TPE. LOL!

Feel free to post your diatribe when it comes to you, I am very interested in hearing it.

As I said in another post, I've come full circle and where we are now is hard to describe. I hesitate to use any BDSM terms to characterize it, yet it does seem to be a BDSM relationship when it comes to the dominance and submission. Sort of. LOL!

Pooka

BDSM_Tourguide

08-20-2002, 05:49 PM

... was the third post of this thread. I kinda slipped it in there secretly. I didn't want anyone to know that was it. LOL

Pooka, I like what you said a lot. My wife and I don't have the classical BDSM relationship either, but we do have a great d/s relationship and we have kinky sex. Between us, it's more of an unspoken thing. We acknowledge who we are and we try to fine tune what it is we want from time to time.

I think we want to be more serious about BDSM in our relationship. We used to be very, very active and would toy with bondage, discipline and about every toy in the book that didn't involve electricity or blood. but we have since settled into a more routine relationship.

What did I mean by role-playing? Mostly, I meant online. People can go into any chat they want and act out whatever fantasy they want, including being someone of the opposite sex (That's right, guys. 60% of all 'women' in chats are really men, so be careful.). But, unfortunately, online-related BDSM issues now extend beyond the chat room. Curtseying, for example, seems to have made its way into the home and the play party. I cannot understand why.

I have heard that for every 100 people online involved in a particular fetish, there are 2 (one couple) that do it in real-life. That means, out of 100 people that have a scat fetish online, there is one couple that really do it at home regularly. Or for every 100 people in Gorean chats online, there is one couple that really practices the Gorean lifestyle. At least, however you do that on the real Earth. It's an interesting and alarming statistic. It basically means that anything you can think of as a fetish, no matter how repulsive, silly, or stupid, there are people out there that do it. That also means that people are learning from online. Oh god! I have an article for this, too. *Hides head in hands*

Argh! I did not want to write another novel in here. I guess I'm just too opinionated for my own good. I think that was all I wanted to say this time. At least I hope it was. I'm getting really wordy in here.

Pooka

08-20-2002, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
[B]... was the third post of this thread. I kinda slipped it in there secretly. I didn't want anyone to know that was it. LOL!

Ah, I see!

[..] We acknowledge who we are and we try to fine tune what it is we want from time to time.

I think we want to be more serious about BDSM in our relationship. We used to be very, very active and would toy with bondage, discipline and about every toy in the book that didn't involve electricity or blood. but we have since settled into a more routine relationship.

There oughta be a place for folks like us. ;)

We were never active outside our own home, though we were on discussion lists and we never had a lot of toys (though we wanted them :). And we aren't even adverse to blood or even electricity per se.

But we are at a point where what we want is something we can't seem to pinpoint. For both of us, kinky sex is about exploring the mind and body, taking it to new heights, stretching the senses outward in all ways. The play isn't related to our power exchange or to underscore what we are to each other, it's a way to fully explore all aspects of sexuality and the human brain. Though I will add that some of the kinky play has it's roots in fears or issues that linger desite rationally knowing the reasons for them. It is rather therapuetic at times. :)

But we too have not been able to reach our ideal space yet in that arena as real life tends to intrude. *grin* Who knew that career, kids, a home and all that could sap so much time and energy not to mention privacy? :)

(That's right, guys. 60% of all 'women' in chats are really men, so be careful.). But, unfortunately, online-related BDSM issues now extend beyond the chat room. Curtseying, for example, seems to have made its way into the home and the play party. I cannot understand why.

I'm so glad I don't travel in BDSM circles anymore!

It's an interesting and alarming statistic. It basically means that anything you can think of as a fetish, no matter how repulsive, silly, or stupid, there are people out there that do it. That also means that people are learning from online. Oh god! I have an article for this, too. *Hides head in hands*

Do it! I wonder how many other areas have the same ratios? Now that is a scary thought! I'm of the opinion that as adults, we are responsible for what we 'learn' on-line or any other place. If the individuals don't take responsibility or do their own research, they have only themselves to blame if something goes wrong. Reality is the ultimate judge on such matters so it pays to take some responsibility in what you do.

Argh! I did not want to write another novel in here. I guess I'm just too opinionated for my own good. I think that was all I wanted to say this time. At least I hope it was. I'm getting really wordy in here.

LOL! Hey, but good words, rarely heard!

Pooka

S_Couture

08-21-2002, 02:21 PM

What gets on my nerves the most about bdsm people is the way the freaking spell.

S/she T/they W/we

What the fuck is up with that? Do you know how fucking hard to read that is? You deserve to be punished severely for that alone. If you want to be a good little sub, use i. But that other shit with the slash is fucked up. Whoever invented it should be buggered with a potscrubber.

Marcus

08-21-2002, 02:44 PM

S Couture wrote: What gets on my nerves the most about bdsm people is the way they freaking spell. S/she T/they W/we Come on, S. Tell us what you really think!

It's a good point and I agree that it often makes things more difficult to read.

Living in the UK, I am quite used to people speaking in English with accents so strong that I can barely understand them. However I am used to this situation; and, after all, they are my countrymen.

The same goes for the BDSM forum and similar places!

flower{J}

08-21-2002, 03:37 PM

As a sub, i would like to give my two cents worth regarding S_Couture's feeling about the slashes business.

i will agree that it can sometimes be difficult to read text of any length with the slashes included, but for this sub anyway, it is a show of respect when refering to Dom/Dommes. With being a Dom/Domme or sub, there comes discipline and i think that writing something and showing respect to a Dom/Domme by including the capital letter/ is part of the discipline coveted by most subs.

What struck me about S_Couture's post more than anything else is the following: "If you want to be a good little sub, use i."

That sentence came across condescending and trivialized what being a sub is about. i'm sure this wasn't his/her intention, but the entire post sounded very hostile and ill informed about what a BDSM relationship is about.

i have come across a lot of people, in the BDSM world, that also find this annoying. So maybe each forum should have guidelines as to what is acceptable and what is not. This sub would be more than happy to follow any guidelines set forth.

:)
flower{J}

BDSM_Tourguide

08-21-2002, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by S_Couture
But that other shit with the slash is fucked up. Whoever invented it should be buggered with a potscrubber.

What I was saying about people learning BDSM online also applies to this. It has absolutely no basis in real life whatsoever. How would it? Do you enter a play praty or a friend's home and say "Hello all with a capital a slash little a. How is everyone with a capital e slash little e tonight? I'm with a little i doing great and I with a little i hope everyone with a capital e slash little e is doing well, too."

Originally posted by flower{J}
i will agree that it can sometimes be difficult to read text of any length with the slashes included, but for this sub anyway, it is a show of respect when refering to Dom/Dommes.

Again, if you ask me, dominants should have enough confidence in themselves and self-respect AND even respect for their submissives and all submissives to NOT EXPECT their You's, Our's, and whatever else's to be capitalized. It's just ego, pure and simple. There's no other reason for it. If your dominant feels that he or she must have their pronouns capitalized, maybe you ought to ask them why and ignore any BS they give you about respect. Because, respect is what you feel, not what you type.

Originally posted by flower{J}
That sentence came across condescending and trivialized what being a sub is about.

I think S_Couture was just trying to say that what's good enough for the goose should be good enough for the gander. If you think you MUST respect your dominant by typing his or her name in caps, then shouldn't you also HAVE to show him or her your respect by uncapping your name, too?

Originally posted by flower{J}
So maybe each forum should have guidelines as to what is acceptable and what is not.

It's not feasible to do so. Every chat, message board and bulletin board would have to have a seperate board for every person or couple or group that floowed one set of rules. And if one person's or couple's or group's rules don't quite follow anyone else's rules, then I guess they just get their own chat/board all to themselves, right?

please try to remember that just because this is BDSM, that's not reason for you to lose your perspective. Remember, you're still a human, after all. Don't you want to be treated like one?

flower{J}

08-21-2002, 06:52 PM

First, i would like to say that i'm glad that we can have these kind of conversations and disagreements, yet know that everyone respects the others opinion.

Do you enter a play praty or a friend's home and say "Hello all with a capital a slash little a. How is everyone with a capital e slash little e tonight? I'm with a little i doing great and I with a little i hope everyone with a capital e slash little e is doing well, too."

No, i would not enter a party and speak like that, as i would not enter a party and say "Hello everyone,(comma) how are you tonight?(question mark)" i believe that in written text, we must use certain formats to indicate what we can't indicate with tone, inflection, etc. Just as i would say "Yes Ma'am, Yes Sir, No Ma'am, No Sir" in person to show respect to an elder or Dominant, i do the same while typing to a Dominant in a BDSM forum. i also believe that using capitalization shows the hierarchy of the participants in a BDSM forum. If we didn't use any capitalization, then what would be the difference in a D/s chatroom and a "vanilla" one?

You made a good point BDSM_Tourguide, a LOT of people do learn BDSM from online. For a lot of us practicing a D/s lifestyle, this is the only place to go for guidelines. If all you learn is to capitalize pronouns and are not taught that any other way is acceptable, that is what you do. Yet, the more time people are online and do more research, they find that it is not the ONLY accepted way to address Dom/Dommes. It seems, from my experience that it really depends on the amount of formality that a particular forum uses. And i will usually follow the lead of others in the room to test how formal a room or board it is.

If you think you MUST respect your dominant by typing his or her name in caps, then shouldn't you also HAVE to show him or her your respect by uncapping your name, too?

In my experience, i have not come across any sub that capitalizes their name. i believe that to be a common practice.

please try to remember that just because this is BDSM, that's not reason for you to lose your perspective. Remember, you're still a human, after all. Don't you want to be treated like one?

i don't believe that because one chooses to follow one of many sets of BDSM "rules" or guidelines that they lose their perspective or are treated any less than human. i can only speak for myself in my own relationship, but i am treated like a much treasured human. my D/s relationship is not online, it is 24/7 r/l, and it didn't start out that way. We decided to integrate some parts of BDSM into our relationship.

ENOUGH ENOUGH flower...geez!

:) flower{J}

BDSM_Tourguide

08-21-2002, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by flower{J}
If we didn't use any capitalization, then what would be the difference in a D/s chatroom and a "vanilla" one?

1) I have never seen anyone flogged in a vanilla chat room.
2) Why should BDSM chat rooms HAVE to be any different from vanilla ones? Are we some kind of outsider sect that requires different chat rules? I consider my lifestyle and my life normal, don't you?

Originally posted by flower{J}
In my experience, i have not come across any sub that capitalizes their name. i believe that to be a common practice.

I agree, it is. On the other hand, my wife capitalizes her name and her I's because she is an author. Grammar, spelling and punctuation are very important to her and she has to use them daily. So I make exceptions for her and I don't expect her to type incorrectly and jeopardise her writing. Besides, like I said before, respect is something you show, not something you type.

Originally posted by flower{J}
i can only speak for myself in my own relationship, but i am treated like a much treasured human.

Should you not be for some reason?

S_Couture

08-22-2002, 04:49 AM

I wasn't meaning to be condescending. It is typical to capitalize a person's name anyway. I can handle the i's and the He's. I just hate the S/she's and T/they's. Those slashes all over the place. Man the garble up what you are trying to say.

Pooka

08-22-2002, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by flower{J}

i don't believe that because one chooses to follow one of many sets of BDSM "rules" or guidelines that they lose their perspective or are treated any less than human. i can only speak for myself in my own relationship, but i am treated like a much treasured human. my D/s relationship is not online, it is 24/7 r/l, and it didn't start out that way. We decided to integrate some parts of BDSM into our relationship.

:) flower{J}

Hmmm, I hit quote, but got only the last paragraph of the message so I'll have to backtrack a bit.

These are, of course, only my own observations and conclusions based on my own experiences. :)

Having said that, I'll have to give all the 'guidelines' and 'rules' out there a big miss in one particular sense.

That they are out there and available for discussion is a wonderful thing, and like anything else in life, it is best to see what's available and see if it is something that appeals to you or furthers your own goals.

Sadly, what I do see is that these guidelines and rules become a SUBSTITUTE for thinking! Hence my dislike of them in general.

I suspect that many doms (and subs!) latch on to these rules as if they were handed down by the god of BDSM and the level of adherence to the rules marks one as the 'perfect' or 'best' BDSM couple.

In another thread someone mentioned collars. What is the purpose of collaring a sub?

To some, it's a reminder of 'ownership', just as an engagement ring marks a woman that way in the vanilla world. Okay, that is fine as far as it goes. But a dog collar??? Please!

What purpose is served by applying a dog collar to a human being for the purpose of marking them as yours? Ah yes, the humiliation factor. Many like to be thought of as strictly possessions, or as equal as a real dog would be to a master. This bothers me on several levels.

Now, this doesn't mean I'm totally against the idea per se. In playing erotic games that are basically mind-fucks, the idea of making someone wear a dog collar is a powerful statement but one that shouldn't be on a daily basis, shouldn't be the foundation of a relationship.

If you take the idea of collaring a slave with a dog collar to it's logical conclusion, you are in effect denying that slave any self-respect but worse, that slave, in accepting and embracing that, is declaring her own sense of self-esteem, is on par with the family pet.

Hmmm, I wonder if I'm still on topic here. LOL!

Ah yes, what to take from the cyber world to the real world.

In the cyber world, I suspect that the forms of capitilization exist because we can't see the wondefully demure faces of the subs as they lower their eyes respectfully as they speak. :)

Because I too am a writer, I was never asked to change my way of writing and while I may have used my name in lower case on occasion, I never could stomach that lower case 'i' except as the occasional typo!

But that is us, we decided it was not important and did nothing to further our own goals as it related to doing BDSM activities or even living in a power exchange relationship. And, my husband would never have allowed me to call another man master. *grin* Obviously we didn't hang out at any Gorean rooms for long.

BDSM_Tourguide raised a point I am interested in addressing as well -- this compulsion to appear different from 'vanilla' folks.

One of my friends is an Orthodox Jew and we often discuss religion as I'm pretty much an atheist. *grin*

While a few of their practices made sense for real reasons, most of it is designed to keep them apart from the heathens. :)

To purposely set themselves apart. Now why would someone feel a need to do that?

There are many reasons but one that screams out to me is a basic insecurity in general. They keep their group identity strong because they can relate to it. The group gives them limited choices so they don't have to think. They blindly follow the rules, because some higher authority said they should. Ergo, they don't have to think about how to make any moral decisions, they don't have to angst over making the right choices -- it's all done for them and if 1 million people are making the same choices, well, they can't be wrong, can they?

Interesting stuff. :)

I guess that boils down to the real reason the on-line BDSM culture didn't appeal to me anymore. I came in just as it was organizing into this 'group' think business, with all their slogans about safe, sane and consenual. All hogwash as far as I'm concerned. Just as you can't legislate morality, you can't keep others safe if they are too stupid to think for themselves. LOL!

What leaders of the supposed BDSM community should have done was to encourage individuals to engage their brains instead of chanting 'safe, sane, and consenual'.

We all have minds, we should get used to using them a bit. Give them some exercise! *grin*

Don't know if I'm still on topic or not, but geez this has gotten long! Sorry!

Pooka

BDSM_Tourguide

08-22-2002, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Pooka
But a dog collar??? Please!

I collared my wife with a dog collar and here's why:

It had nothing to do with humiliation. It was the simple fact that a dog collar at Wal-Mart costs about 55 dollars less than a leather collar with a D-ring at Dare Ware. I personally, at the time, didn't have the money to spend on a fancy collar so I got a cheap one. My reasoning was quite that simple.

NOW, she has a nice collar, of course. We can afford one now. So I got her a nifty silver thingie with bells. Looks nice and serves its purpose well.

I didn't mean to focus just on this one point in my reply, but it's the one thing I felt deserved an immediate response. I'll respond to the rest of your post after Coffee. LOL

Jen

08-24-2002, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by Pooka

What leaders of the supposed BDSM community should have done was to encourage individuals to engage their brains instead of chanting 'safe, sane, and consenual'.

We all have minds, we should get used to using them a bit. Give them some exercise! *grin*

Pooka [/B]

I completely agree that anyone involved in the BDSM community should be encouraged to use their brains... This is, after all, a very potentially dangerous area to mess in lightly. BUT, I think that starting with the rule of thumb "Safe, Sane, and Consentual" is a very good idea. I do not think that the words necessarily merely provide an excuse to disengage our brains but instead distinguishes between the people who take this responsibility seriously verses the people who are truly dangerous. (And if some people have to chant it in order for it to sink into their wee little brains, well, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.)
But that's just my opinion...

Jen

s_pus

11-08-2002, 07:10 AM

Hi
This is the first time in this forum, but actually I got a bit irritated by this thread so I just had to replay.
Where is the high roof in this? Isn't this a forum that is expected to have a bit more room than a vanilla forum? And for me bdsm is not about capital or non capital letters; it's about pleasure and learning to know my self and my partner on the sexual level that turns us on.
So I think you have some great topics you’ve have touched BDSM_Tourguide. Having a relationship were bdsm is a part of the sexual act it’s important to have a good solid grip on the reality of live and a most of all respect your partner. Doesn’t matter if you’re partner is the top or the bottom. And most of all you’ve got to respect your self and what you stand for. Dominant/sado person that don’t respect or have a good feeling about he or her self is a danger, and the same goes for a sub/maso.
Some my find that Titles sprite up their fantasy and that to not refer to them selves as an first person, but please respect that others don’t. We are different and it’s important to find out what pleasures us with out getting “codes and rules” thrown back.

Venus

11-15-2002, 09:29 PM

I just got around to reading this thread. I know that it is a discussion from long time ago, but still would like to say something.

First of all, even though I have many opinions I think that it is very hard to generalize BDSM relationships, and to say what the rules are (I am not talking about physical part). It is up to each individual couple to decide how they want to call each other and how they want to express their love and commitment. Just like many people have different views on what real love is, the same applies here. As far as I am concerned if both people enjoy and are happy in their relationship then why not.

Second point, the internet and what it does to people. I think that many people take the internet to seriosly. For example I met a guy on ICQ, and he started telling me about his wife. Then I saw his website where he and his wife post notes for each other. Then he told me that they got "married" online, and how his computer crashed in the middle of the "ceremony" and "the bride" cried and was very upset. They "kiss" each other goodnight. etc. etc. etc. They never saw each other and live in different countries. I know that this is not a single case and also many people "live out" their BDSM fantasies in Chat Rooms. I do not understand that. Maybe I am missing out on something, if that is the case please explain to me how is it possible to enjoy something like that. I mean as a game yes sure, its cute but no more then that. I have nothing against people meeting online to talk or to just be friends or to meet later, as long as they realize what is real and what is not.

Jennifer-Nylon

11-16-2002, 04:07 AM

The giving of the collar is a beautiful thing, accepting it is also beautiful, do both undertstand it?

~d~

08-12-2003, 07:59 PM

*Cheeky grin* i must drive you nuts BDSM_Tourguide....

Here is my take on it... there is no one outside of our relationship that i will give or use the titles to that i use with LT. the plain and simple truth is... that in my heart he has earned the right to them and i have earned the right to use them...and for us they work. We are both historians in our own rights... and this is what we are comfortable with...

Having said that... we are both people... we both have flaws and we both have issues... we sleep, eat work and play. He is many things to me, but first and formost he is my friend... and all that that implies... it is a wonderful basis for what we have...

For you and your love the dog collar was fine... it worked...for others it wouldn't... for some the use of titles is a deep seeded need ...for others it is a nuisance...for some the use of a title is the same as a endearment.

At the end of the day, all that really matters is that you have found what works for you and your love...and it is the same with me and LT.... over time we have found what works best for us... and it may not be the perfect picture for anyone else... but that's that is okay....because it works for us.

What we have is safe sane and consensual.... that is the only perimeter that matters in any relationship and i have to say i think that rule should be applied to every relationship...not just BDSM relationships... beyond that everything else is up to individual needs and tastes....

Curtis

10-22-2003, 07:57 PM

This has been a good night for me -- I think I just found the best thread in the Forum! This is the first time I've ever rated a thread.

Calm, reasonable, well-though-out, philosophical discourse.

LadyAmanda

10-24-2003, 01:48 PM

Yeah, I'm glad that this thread got re-activated - I never noticed it before.

I have to admit that getting into this on-line discussion group has been a bit of an eye-opener for Sylvie and me (?) I (?) US.

Our relationship started vanilla, until Sylvie had the courage to ask me to hurt her. I had a problem with it at first, but quickly saw how much it meant to her, and how much she enjoyed it. Because we were our own closed little community, we had no contact with other people in the BDSM world, so we improvised like hell for the first couple of years, trying anything that came to mind.

We gradually moved out of our own environment; because we travel so much, we were able to try things in different locations, and we became a little more daring about showing ourselves in public. Since we would never see these people again, I was able to push Sylvie out into the world a bit more.

We settled into our roles quite nicely, exploring anything we wanted to. We shared our thoughts and desires equally most of the time; it was only when we were actually 'playing' that I became the dominant one. At those times, Sylvie obeys me completely, there is no question about who is in charge, or whether she has to do as told. It often happens that I decide that we are going to play right NOW, and she has no say in the timing. It's hard to explain this. If I tell her to do something when we are not playing, she still obeys me, but not always silently!

When we came on-line, it was obvious immediately that this is not the way it works for a lot of people. We got lost for a while in the 'I'm the Domme, you're the sub' mindset, but we found that we both missed our friendship by pushing the other roles on ourselves full time.

Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is that every couple (or more :) have to find their own place, whether it fits into the on-line scene or not. Who really cares what a bunch of strangers think is 'right'? We live our livestyle as close to 100% of the time as we can, and it certainly works for us.

Amanda

BDSM_Tourguide

10-24-2003, 02:59 PM

... then you should look on page two of the general forum and check out "The Absurdity of Things." (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=645) Also, have a look on page three and Look at "Re-vamping some good old (on-topic) threads." (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=527) You probably will see quite a bit that you'd want to read up on in there.

Cleo671

11-08-2003, 08:25 AM

I can say I am completely 'new'(and new to this forum, finally I found this place phew), in that I am thinking about it, it's always been in my mind at some time or another, but crossing paths with the suitable person has been difficult.So forgive me if I don't make 'sense'.

I'm a person that lives with the believe that there are no 'rules' per se. In terms of BDSM the only rule that would apply to me as a human being would be the one that pertains to safety and respect.

Relationships are dynamic, if a person expresses that they are 'nothing' without their mistress or master, then that is their issue, and their master/mistress' issue. That type of reasoning, or mentality of being 'nothing' often has nothing to do with BDSM and usually relates to other separate issues whose seeds have been sown quite a while back.Unfortunately, people don't resolve these issues, so as people are different, they do get drawn into something that they feel feeds them or satisfies them. If that be some form of BDSM, then power to them, it's their choice, but I think that any 'master' or 'mistress' worth their salt, realises the pitfalls.

I totally agree with the topic/thread and can relate to it, however in terms of people being in relationships that are exclusive I have the following to say.

As I am a 'relationship' person, there is no way I could have a 'relationship', and then have a separate external BDSM relationship with another person. Even though I haven't actively engaged in BDSM I do understand the importance of trust and respect, and to obtain that, people need to understand one another, which is why I don't understand how some people within 'conventional' relationships don't express their desires and instead seek other relationships at the drop of a hat via online chat sites etc. But this is my personal opinion, different strokes for different folks. For me dominance also includes an element of possession, not in terms of a possessing a chatel, but in terms of the person/sub infiltrating the person's soul in that they desire the other person. Likewise for submission. For me to fully submit to my partner he has to override my senses and be 100% comfortable with who he is and his desires and I have to be comfortable as well. Like any relationship, desire plays an important role without it, there is no fulfillment, it's just empty -this is where the 'romantic' aspect comes in.

There is an element of 'romance' in BDSM whichever way it's looked at. People might not see it, or they have a different definition of romance. To me romance is not the Brady Bunch relationship, but is a balance of positive and negative. It's the interplay of pain and pleasure. Wuthering Heights wasn't a 'rosey' tale of saccharine lurve, it was a tale of dominance and submission.

kittenfemme

11-08-2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by flower{J}
i think it boils down to an individual couple's wants and desires.

I couldn't agree more. That is precisely why there is no one set "style" of D/s and no one handbook to which all SM practices adhere. One person's pet peeve is another's staple. Boff this "It should or has to be this one particular way or it's not real BDSM because I say so!" crap.

If titles are you and your Dominant's thing, then by all means, use them! If they're not, then don't bow (aren't I punny?) to the pressure of others in the scene, toss them out the window (the titles, not the other peeps). Do what works for you and your partners/ playmates. Case in point:

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
It had nothing to do with humiliation. It was the simple fact that a dog collar at Wal-Mart costs about 55 dollars less than a leather collar with a D-ring at Dare Ware. I personally, at the time, didn't have the money to spend on a fancy collar so I got a cheap one. My reasoning was quite that simple.

That's a perfect example. I love it.

Dari

11-16-2003, 04:34 AM

I just stumbled over this thread and am really relieved to have found it.

I'm relatively new to the whole thing, and until now haven't had the pleasure to drop by in a related online-chat but from what I read here I guess I wouldn't fit right in if I accidently picked the wrong one.
for one, I wouldn't ever mind my capital typings - "I" is the only word I ever seem to spell in capitals, and that's only from habit. I'm also one of the people who tends to have problems reading something with too many slashes, ehm, I even only figured out what this means and why people do it a short time ago. if someone feels like it's okay with them they should do it, as it's as much restricting to say "hey you shouldn't do it!" as forcing someone to do it, but I don't think that anyone around here would do that. you seem too sensible ;)

although I consider myself rather on the submissive side, I have a dominant streak, and there are things I won't do simply because I find them stupid; or it's just too tempting not to do it. I'm refering to my dom as sir (no capitals), but I tend to get lenient with that rather soon - until now he hasn't told me to mind his title, but even if he did I'd probably wouldn't do it more frequently. maybe I'm just trying to call doom down on myself?
and that bowing and curtsying thing is rather stupid, I'd say. I'd only consider it appropriate in a matching scene, but I guess I'd ruin it by having to chuckle too much.

I sometimes do have a low self-esteem, but it seems to rise the moment someone wants to use that against me. for myself I have some defined limits as to how I would address others, and behave towards them, if some dom in an online chat would require me to grovel before him without being his sub I'd probably laugh in his virtual face and quit. I think that as a woman and a sub I require at least as much politeness as the other side might want from me - at the end we are all people, everyone's equal. I simply don't see why something like "all are equal, but some are more equal than others" should apply to me only because I prefer being dominated to dominating myself. naturally there are do's and don't's in a d/s relationship for the sub, but that should all stay in a well-defined (by both parties) reach everyone can live with - for me this couldn't be too tight; but the important thing is that it's something two people have to be content with, so it can't be something defined in a book, it has to be a dynamic thing.

now that's quite a ramble I've produced here, I don't even know if I contributed anything new or was able to express my point of view. we'll see.

-angelstar-

11-16-2003, 05:56 AM

Originally posted by LadyAmanda

Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is that every couple (or more :) have to find their own place, whether it fits into the on-line scene or not. Who really cares what a bunch of strangers think is 'right'? We live our livestyle as close to 100% of the time as we can, and it certainly works for us.

Amanda

this paragraph caught my eye. totally agree with it. at the end of the day, it is you, and your partner (and whoever else you're involved with) that matter. what other people think and do isnt really important as long as you are happy and satisfied with the way things are for you.

Originally posted by Dari

for one, I wouldn't ever mind my capital typings - "I" is the only word I ever seem to spell in capitals, and that's only from habit. I'm also one of the people who tends to have problems reading something with too many slashes, ehm, I even only figured out what this means and why people do it a short time ago. if someone feels like it's okay with them they should do it, as it's as much restricting to say "hey you shouldn't do it!" as forcing someone to do it, but I don't think that anyone around here would do that. you seem too sensible ;)

although I consider myself rather on the submissive side, I have a dominant streak, and there are things I won't do simply because I find them stupid; or it's just too tempting not to do it. I'm refering to my dom as sir (no capitals), but I tend to get lenient with that rather soon - until now he hasn't told me to mind his title, but even if he did I'd probably wouldn't do it more frequently. maybe I'm just trying to call doom down on myself?
and that bowing and curtsying thing is rather stupid, I'd say. I'd only consider it appropriate in a matching scene, but I guess I'd ruin it by having to chuckle too much.

I sometimes do have a low self-esteem, but it seems to rise the moment someone wants to use that against me. for myself I have some defined limits as to how I would address others, and behave towards them, if some dom in an online chat would require me to grovel before him without being his sub I'd probably laugh in his virtual face and quit. I think that as a woman and a sub I require at least as much politeness as the other side might want from me - at the end we are all people, everyone's equal. I simply don't see why something like "all are equal, but some are more equal than others" should apply to me only because I prefer being dominated to dominating myself. naturally there are do's and don't's in a d/s relationship for the sub, but that should all stay in a well-defined (by both parties) reach everyone can live with - for me this couldn't be too tight; but the important thing is that it's something two people have to be content with, so it can't be something defined in a book, it has to be a dynamic thing.

well. i hate typing with capitals unless i'm forced to do it. its just the way i am. i think my words look nicer all in lower case. so i guess its just the way it is with those who insist on specifical capitalisation and all the A/all and W/we kinda stuff. its just personal preference. we should just give and take, and tolerate.

apart from that, i think i kinda agree with most of what Dari says, cos i've similar thoughts. except that i dont call him sir, or master or stuff like that. i see no need to, and i doubt i will, unless he explicitly says so... afterwhich, yes i will consider it. but i dunno. maybe its just me but i think its ridiculous to use such 'names' in the context of ordinary life. of course, yes, given some particular cirumstances, where usage is appropriate, then i will attempt to do it :p

i'm not even sure if i have a low self esteem or anything like that. i'm a rather complicated person. but yeah, i expect to be treated with respect. even though i'm a sub, and will never and can never be a domme, respect is essential to me. i believe that there are ways you can exercise control and authority over me, without belittling me as a person. this d/s and the whole treating a person with decency and respect are two different things, although they overlap in certain aspects. hence, i dunno. maybe i just have my own warped view of this all, but certain boundaries are clearly defined in my head. for instance, you can smack me anywhere you like, except my face. once you slap me on my face, that's it. its no longer a d/s thing to me. do i make any sense? or am i just utterly confusing here :p i dunno. but this is just my take on things.