Pushing Hard Limits

[cadence]

Tessa brought up an interesting point in the CR thread and I was curious about this as well.


Is there ever a reason to push hard limits? If they're indeed hard limits, are they to be pushed? I'm not looking to argue or debate. I'm just really curious about this idea.

My understanding is that a Hard Limit is something that is not going to be tried.
I also understand that Limits can change in time, with experimentation and experiences.
Then there are also Limits that are on the fence, a submissive is curious, but would only do when the time is right.

So how does one know when a Hard Limit can be actually pushed. Does the Dominant revisit the Limits with a submissive or do they know the submissive well enough to push them a little further than what is expected.

Can the Dominant tell whether or not the submissive is doing it only to please, or does the submissive stop the process immediately because they were extremely uncomfortable.

[Rhabbi]

I think it was my comment that caused her to ask that question, so let me weigh in with what I was thinking.

Mishka has hard limits that she is trying to get past because she wants to please me, and she knows that some of what I like is outside her limits. She knows this because I am always honest with my subs and freely share a limits questionnaire.

Her desire to get past these limits is something that I am happy to see because she is growing as a sub/slave, but I am taking it as slow as possible. She wants me to go faster, but I know that if we are to succeed at this it must be a process. This sometimes causes her some confusion, but she knows that ultimately I am looking out for her.

I will push at those limits because she has expressed a desire to grow past them, and not simply because I want to. By the accepted definition of hard limits I am not sure that you could call her limits hard, but she did the first time we did the questionnaire.

As for just pushing a limit, that would depend on the situation. My experience is that subs want to please, so I have been asked to push limits before, and probably will be again. Let me talk about how I go about pushing the limit.

First, as I am an advocate of communication in a D/s relationship, I always approach a limit I want to change with conversation. We openly and frankly discuss the limit in question to see if the desire to do it is there. This actually works both ways, and I have often ended up growing past my limits in order to experience something new. I do have the philosophy that it is impossible to know if you like something before you try it at least three times.

This does not mean that I will try everything, because some things fall into the category of being too dangerous. This is a judgment call on my part, but as I am involved in the decision I get to make it. Just as a sub gets to make it as far as she is concerned.

Safe. Sane. Consensual. I live by this creed. I never push a limit without the consensual part being in place, and even then I am cautious.

[Euryleia]

Rhabbi, I really appreciate the respect that you have for the process and your subs and your ability to articulate it.

I believe that experience is a good teacher and partners can move the lines as they grow together. It can be tough sometimes when the sub wants so bad to please that they will do things beyond their limits. Too much, too fast can make for a bad drop and harm the trust between Top and bottom.

I use a questionnaire that I call the yes, no, maybe form. As the relationship develops over time, we set aside a safe place, outside of play, for us to revisit the questions to see if there are changes. With discussion and patience, maybe can become yes and some no's can become possible, too. I honor those no's that stay no's (and expect mine to be honored, as well).

There are also things in the yes and maybe columns that can become no's. I'm thinking of a partner who was okay with anal until we became really close and she allowed herself to feel more and opened herself to remembering her assault. For a long time, butt play was strictly off limits until she worked through the trauma in therapy. If I hadn't been aware of the changes in her body language, I could have pushed past her limits. If she hadn't felt safe enough to talk to me, we might never have learned what the trigger was.

Open and honest communication is the key.

[annie]

I think it depends on what the definition of "hard" is for a limit.

As an example. I had a horrid experience with tickling. One I will never repeat and so there for, tickling in any form, will ALWAYS be a HARD HARD HARD limit to me, and even with discussion, etc. the chances of that changing are less then 1%.

That being said though... there is a difference in "pushing." I am extremely ticklish in many assorted areas so a Dom who is "testing" to find the spots because he wants/needs to know where they are and the reaction, and immediately stops the moment he is able to make the determination is completely different then someone who knows and keeps "testing" for any other reason. As an example... if I shared that information with a Dom before a scene, then throughout the scene, he might test different areas lightly to see what the reaction would be and if they fell under the "ticklish" section or not. Such as slowly dragging a flogger across my body, noting when it touches my foot that I move, even a slight bit and the next pass with the flogger skipping the foot entirely would be a sign to me that the Dom is attempting to learn the exact limits, etc. and yet respect them in the process. So, yes, in a way the limit is pushed but only pushed to the point of completely understanding of it. If the Dom were to continue to drag the flogger across my foot, knowing I move from it, is when I would halt play and it would be done because he was not respecting that limit.

Now, there are other "hard" limits that I'm not as strong against. Do I wish to explore them, not really, they hold zero interest to me or scare me in some way. But, for the right Dom and based on very open communication, I would agree to the limit being pushed if ever so slightly, since I am also of the belief that limits, etc. change over time.

So... it's all in the definition of "hard" imho.

[Logic1]

I totally agree with you annie.
Hard HARD limits is one thing and limits is a completely different matter.
My hard limits is scat, beastiality, kids and some more, but I dont find tickling a hard limit for myself but that just proves how different we all are doesnt it.
Being different is a good thing. and a good Dom and sub will learn from eachother where those limits are and which that can be pushed and which shouldnt be touched even.
Communication is of the upmost importance when moving into uncharted territories imo.

I like to push limits but moving into hard limits for myself or pushing my sub to places where she doesnt want to go is not something I want to do cause that could so easily be something that would break a trust that is hard to get in the first place and SOO much harder to regain.
and yes annie. Limits do change over time. My limits sure have changed and my likes aswell.

Trust
Communication
Sane
Safe
Consensual
those are just some of the important things to remember

[moptop]

There are often two types of limits defined, hard and soft. My own personal interpretation of those is:

hard: don't go there, ever, don't think about it; complete nono (but I totally understand what annie is saying about the dom needing to find out the boundary of some of those limits)

soft: scared, don't think I'd like it, makes me go eugh, don't want to do it - but accept exploration and pushing of them (gradually) as part of the learning process. Some may become pleasures and actively desired; some may become things that I will do to please, but without personal pleasure; some may become hard limits.

[rach]

I think what a sub has as limits changes as we grow and learn more about ourselves. So constant communication and dialogue is essential. I have some hard limits that I know I will never want to explore, but I also have an interest in exploring a couple of things that I would have considered were hard limits,two years ago, even a year ago. Ad of course if an agreement to push any limit was made than I hope it would only be after a good period of time when a D/s couple know each other very well and the trust is implicit.

I would expect a Dom/me would respect a sub's hard limit, even if it wasn't his/hers, or the relationship would no longer be safe, sane and consensual, it'd be abusive.

LOL probably stating the bleeding obvious....

[Flaming_Redhead]

Is there ever a reason to push hard limits? If they're indeed hard limits, are they to be pushed? I'm not looking to argue or debate. I'm just really curious about this idea.

HELL NO! A hard limit is a definite "do NOT go there." I only have a few which include NO scat, NO minors, NO watersports and NO piercing/branding/scarring. Of course, I have many more soft limits which are things that maybe I just don't think I would enjoy or things that I know I don't enjoy but might do anyway, like....paddles. *wince* These are the ones that can be pushed. In trying some of these, take for instance....paddles, it could quite possibly be discovered that it is more of a hard limit than a soft limit, meaning I hate it and don't ever want to do it again.

[Hime]

I think it depends on what the definition of "hard" is for a limit.

As an example. I had a horrid experience with tickling. One I will never repeat and so there for, tickling in any form, will ALWAYS be a HARD HARD HARD limit to me, and even with discussion, etc. the chances of that changing are less then 1%.

Have to agree with that -- when someone tickles me, there's a pretty good chance that I will have a hysterical (I hate that word but it's the only way to describe it) laughing fit and be unable to breathe. It's not like, say, being whipped, because even if I manage to choke out a safe word and the tickling stops, the panic from not being able to breathe won't. So no tickling, please.

On the other hand, I have at times rethought what I believed were hard limits, not because my Master pushed me to rethink them, but because our relationship deepened over time and my trust for him grew. I have found myself volunteering to try things that I'd previously refused, out of eagerness to show my devotion and to submit further.

I guess that "true limits" are like "true love" in that you always think that's what you have, but the only way to know for sure is time.

[Flaming_Redhead]

I have at times rethought what I believed were hard limits, not because my Master pushed me to rethink them, but because our relationship deepened over time and my trust for him grew. I have found myself volunteering to try things that I'd previously refused, out of eagerness to show my devotion and to submit further.

It's ok for you to create new limits as the relationship grows. It's NOT ok for a Dom to push hard limits. Hard limits are deal breakers. For instance, one of my hard limits is scat. If I tell VoodooMan NO scat, I expect him to respect that, not wait until I'm tied spreadeagle and take a dump on me anyway. Believe me, the relationship would end right then and there. That's why BDSM checklists, such as the one Sir Russell posted, are such a good idea. It can help you distinguish what is truly a hard limit and what is merely a soft limit in addition to revealing what activities you really enjoy.

[Rhabbi]

On the other hand, I have at times rethought what I believed were hard limits, not because my Master pushed me to rethink them, but because our relationship deepened over time and my trust for him grew. I have found myself volunteering to try things that I'd previously refused, out of eagerness to show my devotion and to submit further.

I guess that "true limits" are like "true love" in that you always think that's what you have, but the only way to know for sure is time.

Excellent way to state the case.

I myself might want to explore a subs hard limits to see where they actually lie, like annie's example of no tickling. What might be ticklish in one place is not ticklish in another, so I would need to know what she thought was ticklish and where. this does not mean I want to tickle her, just that I want to know how to avoid it.

As for Mishka and her desire to push her limits to please me, this does not mean I am free to run roughshod over those limits. I have to be careful and judge her responses as we explore.

[Hime]

Excellent way to state the case.

I myself might want to explore a subs hard limits to see where they actually lie, like annie's example of no tickling. What might be ticklish in one place is not ticklish in another, so I would need to know what she thought was ticklish and where. this does not mean I want to tickle her, just that I want to know how to avoid it.

As for Mishka and her desire to push her limits to please me, this does not mean I am free to run roughshod over those limits. I have to be careful and judge her responses as we explore.

Well, yeah. I hope that I was clear in saying that it's not ok in my book to push for something that's a stated hard limit -- just that the person who has that limit might eventually change their mind.

The other thing that hasn't really been brought up is that Dom/mes have limits, too, and sometimes they can be the subject of the same tension. I think that we subs have to be understanding about those, too. Basically, always remember that the person you're playing with is a person no matter what kind of role they're playing.

[tessa]

Thank you for starting this, cadence. I really wanted this insight for myself.

A great read, every word.

tessa :wave:

[gagged_Louise]

I'd imagine the pushing of a "semi-hard" limit (a point the submissive didn't think she'd want to cross, something that would have felt like a hard no-no, but then it becomes plausible) is a bit like the interplay of director and actor/s. Great movie or stage directors have this intuitive ability to make the actors feel safe, but not too safe. At some moment, the hand of the director will guide or conjure the actor to take a step into the unknown, to shape something they hadn't known they were able to do, or knew only as a dream. Look, it works - you didn't fall into the abyss - and then another step, and further out. This skill in setting things in motion is one of the secrets of great theatre, and it's really like it happens on a plane beyond words. It's also (both in directors and Doms) about catching their partner off guard.

Of course it's not a single-direction thing, the actor can contribute a great deal to getting it along too, just like sometimes it's the submissive who aims to teach the Dominant to overcome inhibitions (cases in point:Tessa and Jeanne)

In some "generation movies" like Easy Rider or Jules and Jim it seems plain, if you closely watch the lead actors, that during filming they're trying out something they had never consciously thought they'd be able to do, they're spurred on by the script and the director to try one more step and one more, shape something that was about to happen in years to come, a dream of a new life, and - at the end of both those films - the tragic collapse, later on, of those dreams (that's not to say the attempt was futile). And both films had and have this magic power to evoke those images and to get new meaning as years move on.

[Sir_Russell]

Okay, I don't really agree here. I may lose a lot of friends or respect but I feel that a Dom has to push some of the limits.

Anyone that has taken my hard limit questionaire hopefully learned something about themselves. I have found that subs set a lot of hard limits that are areas that they secretly want to go. I bet that I am not the only Dom that has had this experience.

So I think that a Dom trying to really learn his sub/slave actual limits has to at least brush each one, except of course those that are also his hard limits. When doing this I have to be hyper aware of everything about her and back totally away if she responds badly. I also do things verbally to test these limits again to find which are actually ones that she feels are so perverted that they scare her more then she is willing to admit to that dark want.

A sub I took a while ago had a bunch of these limits listed before we started. One was no chains during bondage, of course she started with I have to have one hand free at all times and tath limit she ask me to break our first night. Any ways after a while I brought out my chains while she was tied spread eagle to the bed and layed them across her on the bed. She instantly went back into subspace. Now that sub begs for chains and needs them on her body while feeling how strong they are and how impossible it would be to break free. If I had left that one untouched she would have missed out on a thrill that she loves very much.

Now would I deliberately push a sub/slave to break a hard limit no never but would I test each one softly and subtle, damn right I will.

Oh if she has a hard limit with a hard reason that it is a limit then no I would not go there at all.

Russell

[jeanne]

I have found that subs set a lot of hard limits that are areas that they secretly want to go. I bet that I am not the only Dom that has had this experience.



No you probably aren't. Filling out the limits questionnaire knowing that no one would ever actually use it is a whole different animal than filling it out because you have been told to, for the purposes of your One's knowledge. It's a lot harder to be completely open and honest - and very tempting to set some items as hard limits because admitting that you want them or at least would be willing to do them if He did is just plain embarrassing.



Now would I deliberately push a sub/slave to break a hard limit no never but would I test each one softly and subtle, damn right I will.



And that feels completely appropriate and right to me.



Oh if she has a hard limit with a hard reason that it is a limit then no I would not go there at all.

Russell

Yes, that is very smart. I have one particular hard limit, that for very emotional and personal reasons, is absolute. But I am also very willing to explain that and believe I have the right to expect that limit to be left alone.

In total agreement with you,
jeanne

[Flaming_Redhead]

Anyone that has taken my hard limit questionaire hopefully learned something about themselves. I have found that subs set a lot of hard limits that are areas that they secretly want to go. I bet that I am not the only Dom that has had this experience.


Filling out the limits questionnaire knowing that no one would ever actually use it is a whole different animal than filling it out because you have been told to, for the purposes of your One's knowledge. It's a lot harder to be completely open and honest - and very tempting to set some items as hard limits because admitting that you want them or at least would be willing to do them if He did is just plain embarrassing.

Ok, people, I am reading this and just shaking my head. Sir Russell, I am absolutely positive that you have had an experience where a sub was not totally honest with you because most people lie. However, I am an intelligent, honest and sexually confident person. I happen to know what the meaning is of "hard limit" versus "soft limit," and I also know what my hard limits are. The chance of them changing is zero percent. For anyone to push them is not only insulting but very untrustworthy behavior. All I can say is thank goodness my Dom and I have the same hard limits, so we will not be doing or even discussing doing any watersports, scat, kid porn, etc.

That being said, his_j, what people need to realize is that by not being honest about what you know you like, might like and just plain abhor, you are severely limiting the experiences you could potentially have. When you set something down as a "hard limit," you are saying, "Don't go there EVER. I don't like this at all. If you do this to me, I will be traumatized, and the relationship will end effective immediately." I have a difficult time believing that there are people out there who are so sexually repressed that they can't admit to their significant other that they want to try anal sex (for example). *rme* If you're filling out a BDSM checklist for a Dom/me, you've already admitted to being a "pervert."

[Euryleia]

I agree, Flamming Redhead. There are maybe's and then there are no's. Pushing the maybe's can be hot. Pushing the no's is disrespectful.

The whole afraid to want something is why there needs to be open, honest and REGULAR communication. I, for one, make sure that we revisit the question of limits in a safe space and check in to see if there are changes. I'm not going to do something from the no list when someone is tied down and sexually stimulated. Agreement then is less than consensual.

[Rhabbi]

Okay, I don't really agree here. I may lose a lot of friends or respect but I feel that a Dom has to push some of the limits.

Anyone that has taken my hard limit questionaire hopefully learned something about themselves. I have found that subs set a lot of hard limits that are areas that they secretly want to go. I bet that I am not the only Dom that has had this experience.

So I think that a Dom trying to really learn his sub/slave actual limits has to at least brush each one, except of course those that are also his hard limits. When doing this I have to be hyper aware of everything about her and back totally away if she responds badly. I also do things verbally to test these limits again to find which are actually ones that she feels are so perverted that they scare her more then she is willing to admit to that dark want.

A sub I took a while ago had a bunch of these limits listed before we started. One was no chains during bondage, of course she started with I have to have one hand free at all times and tath limit she ask me to break our first night. Any ways after a while I brought out my chains while she was tied spread eagle to the bed and layed them across her on the bed. She instantly went back into subspace. Now that sub begs for chains and needs them on her body while feeling how strong they are and how impossible it would be to break free. If I had left that one untouched she would have missed out on a thrill that she loves very much.

Now would I deliberately push a sub/slave to break a hard limit no never but would I test each one softly and subtle, damn right I will.

Oh if she has a hard limit with a hard reason that it is a limit then no I would not go there at all.

Russell


Ok, people, I am reading this and just shaking my head. Sir Russell, I am absolutely positive that you have had an experience where a sub was not totally honest with you because most people lie. However, I am an intelligent, honest and sexually confident person. I happen to know what the meaning is of "hard limit" versus "soft limit," and I also know what my hard limits are. The chance of them changing is zero percent. For anyone to push them is not only insulting but very untrustworthy behavior. All I can say is thank goodness my Dom and I have the same hard limits, so we will not be doing or even discussing doing any watersports, scat, kid porn, etc.

That being said, his_j, what people need to realize is that by not being honest about what you know you like, might like and just plain abhor, you are severely limiting the experiences you could potentially have. When you set something down as a "hard limit," you are saying, "Don't go there EVER. I don't like this at all. If you do this to me, I will be traumatized, and the relationship will end effective immediately." I have a difficult time believing that there are people out there who are so sexually repressed that they can't admit to their significant other that they want to try anal sex (for example). *rme* If you're filling out a BDSM checklist for a Dom/me, you've already admitted to being a "pervert."

This might seem strange, but as I read these posts I found myself totally agreeing with both of them. To me this means that there must be another factor involved than limits.

I think it is experience. I treat an experienced sub who tells me her hard limits differently than I do an inexperienced one. this is because I have found, like Sir Russell, that the limits that she expresses are more about what she thinks than what she knows.

I always discuss the limits questionnaire in as much detail as is practical before I play with someone so that I will have a feel for why a sub lists certain things as a limit. If it is fear, then I will approach that limit only after a bond of trust has developed. If it is inexperience, then I might explain it in more detail and even try it with them. This is, IMO, part of training.

On the other hand, if a sub is experienced, then limits are limits. This is a simple matter of respect. In this I agree with Flaming-Redhead. Does this make me wishy-washy, or is it a simple acknowledgment that experience makes a difference?

[Flaming_Redhead]

This might seem strange, but as I read these posts I found myself totally agreeing with both of them....Does this make me wishy-washy, or is it a simple acknowledgment that experience makes a difference?

No, it really doesn't make you wishy-washy. It's just sad that someone would rather put something down as a NO instead of a MAYBE simply due to embarressment. I have a few absolute "no thank you" type activities, but I have very many "maybe" and "not-my-favorite-but-will-do-for-you" type activities. An example of a maybe activity involves paddles. I didn't list it as a hard limit (still don't), just a dislike. We have discovered that I am so terrified of paddles that my eyes welled up with tears at the mere mention of having one made. I have a very good reason for this. However, I have stated that if VoodooMan wishes to push this, he may do so. He has decided that, at least for now, it is in my best interest not to. An example of a not-my-favorite activity is oral sex. I have TMJ in my left jaw, so it can be a little uncomfortable at times to perform BJs, not to mention the gagging now and then. I do them anyway because he likes them.

[Rhabbi]

No, it really doesn't. It's just sad that someone would rather put something down as a NO instead of a MAYBE simple due to embarressment. I have a few absolute "no thank you" type activities, but I have very many "maybe" and "not-my-favorite-but-will-do-for-you" type activities. An example of an extreme case for me is paddles. I didn't list it as a hard limit (still don't) even though I apparently have a phobia of them. We have discovered that I am so terrified of paddles that my eyes will well up with tears at the mere mention of being paddled. I have a very good reason for this. However, I have stated that if VoodooMan wishes to pursue this, he may do so. He has decided that, at least for now, it is in my best interest not to.

This is the way I feel about a lot of Mishka's limits that she wants to rescind. I may do so, but for now I am leaving them alone.

[hikochan]

I'm glad I came across this discussion. This is a huge issue with me actually. For various reasons I ended up living with a man that made me do all kinds of things I didn't want to do. It was awful. He kept telling me that he was just pushing my limits because he wanted me to see that I could deal with it if I had to. Granted, some of those very things I do enjoy now, but I never enjoyed them with him because he had absolutely no respect for me and my limits at the time. I left town while he was at work one day and never looked back.

Respect is VERY IMPORTANT! If someone says they don't want to do something, LISTEN! Sure, limits can change over time, that's natural. Maybe you could just discuss them every once in awhile to see what has changed. And, yes, if you know your sub very well you could softly test those limits to see the reaction I suppose. Just remember that those things are limits for a reason and some things just will never become ok.

[gloombunny]

Isn't the whole point of calling some limits hard and others not that the hard ones are not to be pushed? I think any need a dom might feel to push hard limits is mostly from a sub invoking the "hard" label when it isn't really warranted. I wish I could think of a better way to deal with that.

[annie]

I have to say I agree with Rhabbi in a way... a lot of a "hard" limit/"soft" limit issue is based on experience.

After all... we have all seen new members here, who, in their enthusiasm state "I don't have any limits." Most of the time without realizing WHAT that truly means. After further discussion/exploration with them... yes they do have limits, and things they want to try but haven't, etc. That is also true in the reverse though, new members who are unsure of what this all mean, read a line of something, instantly think the worse about it (perhaps without fully understanding it) and make it a "hard" limit. When in reality is it something that just needs to be tested a bit.

So, yes, in my way of thinking experience does need to play into it. I mean, I clearly state when asked about my limits now which ones are no's for me (such as the tickling) and then my following statement is normally along the lines of "based on my limited experience I am unsure about A, B, C and am willing to try them but reserve the right to make them "hard" limits after that." That is completely different then the way I would have responded 8 years ago starting out...

I think in that same process though, Dom's have a tendency to "push" for answers. At times perhaps making a sub, especially an inexperienced one, feel it necessary to go one extreme or the other. Sometimes, it may be necessary for a Dom to accept an honest "I don't know." Which I think level of experience for a Dom with that answer isn't as important as the personality of the Dom. A Dom, with or without experience who hears "I don't know" can either take that as "Ok, let's explore safely" or push and demand an answer as is "their right." (Which in the second case I always question the Dom and the "Troll" factor.)

Just my 2 cents worth....

[Rhabbi]

Very well thought out answer annie, one of the advantages of experience. I don't know should always be a valid answer, and then, if agreed, lead to exploration. No Dom/me has the right to an answer to a question beyond that, IMO.

[Sir_Russell]

I think that everyone here miss read my statement. Words have a way of doing that you say one thing others hear some different.

If a sub tells me she was anally raped with a knife at her throat, forced to bite down on an apple to stop her from screaming then I would quickly know that her hard limit on being taken anally, use of knives in played or gaged is a hard limit, then I would never push on any of them. Hell I love apples but if I accepted her then apples would never be in the house. The opposite of this would be anal is a hard limit because it is wrong. That one I have to push a little to see how real it is. I can't imagine accepting a sub's gift who has ruled out anal but if we are still in the testing each other out stage then during play I would be sure to run a finger lightly over her anus once she was very excited to see the physical and emotional response if she protested or jerked away then that would be my answer. I would then know that anal play with her would be wrong and that would factor into my decision to accept her gift or not. Now if there is no negative response then I would continue to explore of lightly push that limit. A vibrator wet from her own juices would slide over and around her anus while I watched closely for signs. This pushing would continue till I got an adverse response from her. This example is one from my past. She was taught that sodomy was wrong a sin and 3 months later she asked me to take her ass and after that it was a normal event.

When I say push a limit this is what I mean. I never force it no matter how much I want it but without these light pushings I have found that many subs would never grow and find their strength. Any asshole could have had her restrained and gaged and taken her ass but that would be criminal in my eyes.

Also conversation doesn't always allow you to find out much in the first case it would get me all I needed to know to respect those hard limits completely in the second case it got me her religous dogma and not the truth.

If you still think I am a bad Dom for this then it is a free world, but I think you are looking for a Top one who will PLAY by your rules not a Dom that wants to see you grow and experience all that life can offer.

[Logic1]

you sure sound like a good Dom Russel.
That is pretty much how I would push limits aswell. Touch and feel and see how it goes and ask.

[Rhabbi]

I agree Russeel, this is a sign of a good Dom. Conversation does have its limits, it just tends to be one of my tools.

[sipgirl]

I am far from an expert and dont claim to know it all, but what I can share is this. It has been my experience that yes I am sometimes embarassed to tell my Master what it is I want. We have been together for 17 years, but there are just some things that embarass me. I feel that there are also times when I say, "no no" but mean yes, yes!!He knows me well enough to judge that for himself. I guess to sum it up...hard limits are just that ...limits NOT to be pushed no matter what!!Other things I wouldnt consider limits..not even soft limits. I have made it very clear what I DONT want..anything else is totally up to him.

[jeanne]

It's just sad that someone would rather put something down as a NO instead of a MAYBE simply due to embarressment.

I don't usually write posts directly to specific people, but I particularly wanted what I'm about to say be public. Red, your post was very helpful to me. I'll be honest - at first I was "What?!" But, I was also in a spot that was very uncomfortable to me - staring at a limits questionaire that was actually going to be used by someone. And I was struggling with filling it out honestly. Your post made me rethink the NOs, each one on an individual basis, and ask myself: "Why is this a NO? Is there any circumstance under which I could imagine this not being a NO?" After that re-examination of my long, long list of NOs, it became a long, long list of soft limits, with some NOs sprinkled in. :) You pushed me to get honest, with myself and Him, and I thank you for that Red.

Still learning about myself, and Red helped,
jeanne

[Flaming_Redhead]

Whew! For a second, I thought you were pissed! LOL I'm glad I could be of help. *hugs*

[jeanne]

Red, for a second, I was! But I've learned over the years that often the thing that pisses you off the most is the one you need to learn from. Whether a person, a statement, an event, a circumstance...and I learned from you. No worries here, dear.

[cariad]

Like nearly all subs, I have hard limits. Some of which I we have discussed, and he knows, others which to be honest do not need to be said because they are just somewhere where neither of us would wish to go.

Some of what I originally gave as a hard limits have been pushed and I love it, and love him for it. There was however one instance, when he pushed a hard limit, which was much harder for me than he realised - since it did not make sense to him. It was a mistake which he is horrified that he made, and it took sometime to rebuild the trust. I have fully forgiven him, but the scar will always remain.

Just glad I am not a Domme - is not an easy path.

cariad

[Flaming_Redhead]

Red, for a second, I was! But I've learned over the years that often the thing that pisses you off the most is the one you need to learn from. Whether a person, a statement, an event, a circumstance...and I learned from you. No worries here, dear.

I guess I should've said that I was worried that you were still pissed. *smiles* I apologize if I seem to lack sensitivity at times, but one thing you can count on me for is being a straight shooter. Of course, it doesn't win you any popularity contests. :rolleyes:

[tessa]

This thread is such a learning mine field. I love it!


"hard limit," you are saying, "Don't go there EVER. I don't like this at all. If you do this, I will be traumatized, and the relationship will end effective immediately."
This is my definition of "hard limit", for Dom/me or sub. But I also put my perspective of "knowing myself" into that definition. Which is why what Sir Russell says here-


Anyone that has taken my hard limit questionaire hopefully learned something about themselves. I have found that subs set a lot of hard limits that are areas that they secretly want to go.
made so much sense to me. Ten years ago, all limits would have been "hard limits" for me. Now I only have two, set in stone, hard limits. It's definitely a learning process for sure.


So I think that a Dom trying to really learn his sub/slave actual limits has to at least brush each one, except of course those that are also his hard limits.
Love that "brush each one" image there. Excellently stated. :) And I have a question, if I may. Questions actually, again, if I may. How often is the hard limit questionaire to be re-visited? What if one of the sub's previous hard limits changes to not a limit, yet it still remains a hard limit for the Dom/me? What then- brush it or avoid it? Same question in reverse. What about if it was hard limits'ville for the Dom/me but is no longer? Curious...

Pardon as my want-to-learn is showing. :o


Now would I deliberately push a sub/slave to break a hard limit- no never- but would I test each one softly and subtle, damn right I will.
That's 'cause you're a smart, smart man.


Oh if she has a hard limit with a hard reason that it is a limit then no I would not go there at all.
Again, smart. And I love having this insight into the Dominant mind. It sure does help so much with the learning process. Thank you. :)


There are maybe's and then there are no's. Pushing the maybe's can be hot.
~nods in big-time agreement~


Pushing the no's is disrespectful.
And potentially damamging, which is why I had to ask the "pushing" question initially. I like how you think, Euryleia. :)



I think it is experience. I treat an experienced sub who tells me her hard limits differently than I do an inexperienced one. this is because I have found, like Sir Russell, that the limits that she expresses are more about what she thinks than what she knows.
A grand thing for a Dom/me to know.


I think any need a dom might feel to push hard limits is mostly from a sub invoking the "hard" label when it isn't really warranted.
Exactly! Well said!


If a sub tells me she was anally raped with a knife at her throat, forced to bite down on an apple to stop her from screaming, then I would quickly know that her "hard limit" on being taken anally, use of knives in played or gagged is a hard limit, then I would never push on any of them. The opposite of this would be anal is a hard limit because it is wrong. That one I have to push a little to see how real it is.
These examples you give are most helpful in this defining process I'm in. Many thanks again. :)

And you aren't a "bad Dom", Sir Russell, and you know it. We are all different and operate under different theories. Having a set basis of respect for all that is D/s is what's important. That and a sense of true care and concern. You have all that (and much more, I'm sure).

These posts have helped clarify so much for me. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to put your thoughts here. :)

tessa :wave:

[Sir_Russell]

tessa,
I recommend taking the questionaire every six months or any time there has been a break through. Life is not set in stone neither are some hard limits. I still go through mine often. Sometimes it is the sub and our relationship that causes it.

Funny but knowing her real hard limits will bhange mine. If she has a hard limit on something I think of as normal usage or common practice then I have to decide whether she is worth the loss of that activity. Funny I don't think I ever found that I couldn't find a substitute and be happy with her. For an example I love chains and handcuffs and if I found that either or both was a really a hard limit for her I would have put them away and learned more about ropes etc.

hope this helps

oh one quick statement I don't like maybes as a choice in hard limits. It is why mine has 2 answers and 8 choices on how to rate it

[Platonicus]

My opinion is that hard limits are exactly that and as long as a submissive considers an activity to be a hard limit, it should not be broached. As someone else mentioned, limits sometimes change which I think very well illustrates the need for constant dialogue and meaningful communication. With the passage of time trust deepens between a submissive and Dominant and activities that the submissive might have once considered hard limits become areas that they may choose to explore, but again I would say that is the submissive’s choice to make. At that point, it is no longer a hard limit and I think it is entirely ethical to push the limit at that point to help the submissive experience growth. But again, the importance of good communication cannot be overstated. Personally, I want a submissive to choose to explore areas that they may find intimidating or even a bit scary for their own reasons and not out of a desire to please me by engaging in something that they truly don’t find meaningful for their own reasons.

Platonicus

[Austerus]

I've always considered a Hard Limit to be a deal breaker. It's a "don't do it, don't ask, if you bring it up you'd better be laughing and make it obvious it's a joke. If it ever changes it will be because I specifically chose to soften the limit. Till then don't touch."

Whereas a soft limit is "not into it, don't really want to do it. If you push at it a little the limit may harden to a hard limit or soften further...but don't push too hard and you'd better be careful with it."

The thing is that if a "hard limit" is meant to be pushed then there needs to be another category beyond "hard" limit to denote "no not ever." Personally, for me and so far for all those I have had relationships with, the granularity of Soft/Hard has been plenty.

Note that if you -don't- have some category of limit which is "no not ever" then effectively you're in a TPE relationship, and the sub has no right to set any boundaries. For my money that treads a little too close to abuse.

[Ozme52]

I've always considered a Hard Limit to be a deal breaker. It's a "don't do it, don't ask, if you bring it up you'd better be laughing and make it obvious it's a joke. If it ever changes it will be because I specifically chose to soften the limit. Till then don't touch."

Whereas a soft limit is "not into it, don't really want to do it. If you push at it a little the limit may harden to a hard limit or soften further...but don't push too hard and you'd better be careful with it."

The thing is that if a "hard limit" is meant to be pushed then there needs to be another category beyond "hard" limit to denote "no not ever." Personally, for me and so far for all those I have had relationships with, the granularity of Soft/Hard has been plenty.

Note that if you -don't- have some category of limit which is "no not ever" then effectively you're in a TPE relationship, and the sub has no right to set any boundaries. For my money that treads a little too close to abuse.

That's the problem with the language. Definitions that lie on a scalar continuum are fluid and mean different things to differnet people.

So rather than discuss things in terms of hard or soft limits, it's actually helpful to use an activities checklist like the one Sir Russell has provided... AND to update it on a regular basis so that changing interests and curiosities can be noted.

Fill one out yourself so you submissive can make similar observations and maybe even alter his/her own limits as they see what you have curiosity about... and where your fantasies lie.

And occassionally just go through the list and talk about the reasons behind those things that are limits. Some of them may disappear with a negotiated common definition.

I for example, had a hard limit against hard beatings until my submissive told me what she meant when she said she was curious.

[jeanne]

And occassionally just go through the list and talk about the reasons behind those things that are limits. Some of them may disappear with a negotiated common definition.

I for example, had a hard limit against hard beatings until my submissive told me what she meant when she said she was curious.

Agreement on definition is always good - sometimes each person's idea of what something means is very different. (Although I still find talking about it embarrassing, it's getting a little easier.)

:o
jeanne

[Gr1m'sGirl]

A hard limit should not be pushed at all unless you've talked with your sub about it and they've agreed to it. If any of mine were pushed when I clearly stated that I don't want them to happen, thats it. Relationship is over, have a nice life.

[Polaris]

But in case you've talked to your sub about it and they have agreed to it, hasn't the hard limit become a soft limit already? One that maybe requires a lot of consideration and care in being pushed, but no longer hard nonetheless? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious :)

[Rhabbi]

A hard limit should not be pushed at all unless you've talked with your sub about it and they've agreed to it. If any of mine were pushed when I clearly stated that I don't want them to happen, thats it. Relationship is over, have a nice life.


But in case you've talked to your sub about it and they have agreed to it, hasn't the hard limit become a soft limit already? One that maybe requires a lot of consideration and care in being pushed, but no longer hard nonetheless? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious :)

Part of pushing a hard limit is talking about it, thus making it a soft limit. Conversation and education are subtle ways to push a limit, but are nonetheless pushing it.