Relationships outside of marriage

[Isabelle90]

Many have said that a D/s relationship is one of honesty and respect. If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?

It seems, to me, that this is not an uncommon practice, and I was curious as to what others thought of the matter.

Personally, I am a more "concrete" person. That is, grasping my mind around an online relationship is much like reading something by Stephen Hawking. It takes some time for it to sink in. I need to see, touch, taste, smell, and hear. I don't possess the sixth sense. "Abstract" does not really appeal to me as much. Ye of little faith and all that?

[Playfulsub]

I think you've asked a really good question, and a a pertinent one for many. I am in the situation you've described. I've been married for 13 years and we have two young kids. The marriage has been 'on the rocks' for over 5 years. It started having problems three years into it, and nothing was ever resolved.

A couple of years ago, I re-discovered my submissive leanings. I suspect they're a great deal stronger than I've allowed myself to believe, but I've been unable to really explore them safely. I convinced my husband to try some D/s play in the bedroom. It was fun, to a degree, while it lasted, but it left me feeling like there was so much more to it. Unfortunately, because of the nature of our marital problems, I could never submit to my husband emotionally. After 15 years together, he has really very little idea of 'the real me' which makes it impossible for me to trust him emotionally.

I realize this answer is becoming long-winded, but I really just wanted to speak to your 'Is it appropriate?' question. I don't know the answer. I wish I did. I do know that I am, for the most part, a happy and successful person. But then there's this strong need of mine to find someone I can respect and submit to.

[Ozme52]

I'm in such a relationship too, have noted that elsewhere, so it's not a revelation to anyone.

I guess, in one respect, I was very fortunate. When I first got married, we talked about a lot of subjects... and one of them was fidelity. We came to the conclusion we both have large (and *dominant) egos and didn't want to have an open-swinging marriage... but also agreed that the thing that wrecked many of our friends' marriages was "forbidden fruit." So we agreed that nothing was forbidden except parting because of an affair.

We have a "don't ask-don't tell" semi-open marriage. It's worked for 30+ years.

That means I personally, can have an online relationship and can be in-the-flesh (itf) without feeling guilty about it. The hard part is finding the right partner who is either in the same situation or can live within the boundaries of my situation, as I'm determined to maintain both lifestyles.

---------------------
* We're both dominant personalities but there's no "kink" in hers. Who knows how it might have been different if I'd recognized (or faced) my own needs when I was younger. Then again, I might have been a lonely old dom... so I'm not complaining.

[Playfulsub]

We have a "don't ask-don't tell" semi-open marriage. It's worked for 30+ years.

That means I personally, can have an online relationship and can be in-the-flesh (itf) without feeling guilty about it. The hard part is finding the right partner who is either in the same situation or can live within the boundaries of my situation, as I'm determined to maintain both lifestyles.



That's fantastic that you have come to that agreement with your wife. I have broached the subject with my husband, but he is absolutely not interested. Which is a shame, because now I'm doing it behind his back, which is not in my nature at all. The ideal situation for us would be a semi-open marriage where we are both free to explore other relationships but we stay together for the kids. We could probably end up being good friends if he was open minded enough to try it.

[Flaming_Redhead]

If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?

It seems, to me, that this is not an uncommon practice, and I was curious as to what others thought of the matter.

There's a saying that goes "you can never really know someone." Even the best judges of character get duped from time to time. In my opinion, it's only okay to have a relationship outside of marriage if both parties are aware of and in agreement with the arrangement, whether it's online or real life. The realization that one is submissive or dominant while their partner is not doesn't make it okay to cheat in my book because any number of excuses are used all the time by cheaters, i.e. my wife got fat after she had kids or my husband has lost interest in me. I'll use myself as an example. My ex-husband and I had different needs. He didn't mind the online stuff because it got me hot. Any online persons I "played" with knew I was still married. However, it wasn't enough for me. I wanted the real deal. He refused to let me go outside of the marriage, even though I gave him permission to do likewise. In the end, we couldn't work out our differences, which included things outside of the bedroom, and I chose to leave rather than stay and do what I knew would happen eventually...which is that I would either cheat on him or be placed back on antidepressants or both....

So to answer your question, in my opinion, you either need the blessing of the person you made vows to or you need to move on when you realize that it will never work. A third option is to stay and be miserable together for the rest of your lives. I don't think it's fair to start a new relationship under false pretences. I would certainly be furious and hurt if I discovered that my dom was still married instead of divorced as I'm sure he would be if he discovered the same about me. On the flip side, if I were the spouse who discovered my partner having an affair for whatever reason, I would also be furious and hurt. I could never trust someone who lied about something like that, and I didn't want to be the person who couldn't be trusted...so...yeah...it's not okay. But that's just my opinion, and what other people do is really none of my business, unless they're doing it to me.

[Isabelle90]

I think you've asked a really good question, and a a pertinent one for many.

Playfulsub, I thought it was pertinent as well. However, I think it might be a rather taboo topic. Leave it to me to stick my foot in my mouth!!!



I realize this answer is becoming long-winded, but I really just wanted to speak to your 'Is it appropriate?' question. I don't know the answer.

I don't know the answer either. I'm not sure any of us do, but surely people have opinions that could help others in similar situations just as you did!

[Ozme52]

That's fantastic that you have come to that agreement with your wife. I have broached the subject with my husband, but he is absolutely not interested. Which is a shame, because now I'm doing it behind his back, which is not in my nature at all. The ideal situation for us would be a semi-open marriage where we are both free to explore other relationships but we stay together for the kids. We could probably end up being good friends if he was open minded enough to try it.

Don't misunderstand. This is a 30 year old agreement which we never discussed save for once or twice early on...and once when she was concerned about a particular lady who turned out to be, not a lady, but a girl. (But I mention the incident to allow people to understand, this agreement isn't a figment of my imagination. LOL)

Several of my acquaintances had apparently stepped over the line... but I had not because our agreement included... no mutual friends, no mutual acquaintances. I kept to the letter of the agreement... and probably sidestepped a nasty outcome.

I would be the first to admit that trying to negotiate that kind of agreement after a number of years of marriage would be difficult. We set the guidelines for our relationship early on... and yes, somethings change and mature over time. But I think this particular topic is a difficult one to "renegotiate" especially if you don't already have something in place other than your marriage vows.

Good luck.

[jeanne]

I would be the first to admit that trying to negotiate that kind of agreement after a number of years of marriage would be difficult. We set the guidelines for our relationship early on... and yes, somethings change and mature over time. But I think this particular topic is a difficult one to "renegotiate" especially if you don't already have something in place other than your marriage vows.

I have no intention of renegotiating this topic with my husband - and yes, I have a D/s relationship outside my marriage. I didn't go looking for it, it just happened. And I wasn't willing or able to pass up the opportunity. Does that make me a bad person, a bad wife? By society's definition, yes. Am I ignoring my husband for this other person? No. Am I entirely happy about my decision? No. But I'm able to live with it. I love my husband and intend to spend the rest of my life with him and will do everything in my power to ensure he never knows. And I'll deal with the consequences if he ever finds out - good or bad. And yes, I know it would be bad.

But for now, I have my husband - the man I've been with for 22+ years, and I have Him - the Dom I hope to have for many years to come. And I am okay with the situation and rapidly finding the internal balance I need to make it work for me.

*Commence throwing rotten tomatoes*

[caligirl{Rob}]

well i can only speak for myself, my situation and what "works" for me, yes i am married 14+ years, have 2 children and care for my 85 yr old mother, and yes i have a r/l relationship outside of marriage, divorce at this time would be financial ruin for the father of my children, my Dom has my complete trust and respect, knows all of my life, supports me emotionally, fulfills me and makes me so much more of a mother, woman, and caretaker. my ideal would be to be with Him 24/7, and we are working towards that...but for now my children and my responsibilites here keep me here...i have been in therapy and have asked my husband to go also, he has refused, he refuses to discuss our marriage, has little interest in sex and his response to my bringing up the subject of divorce has been only that "if it is what i want".... i do not look or ask for "acceptance" of this from anyone, my children are my priority but i refused to continue to put my needs on hold or deny myself this part of my life, i do not need to prove my trustworthiness or honesty to anyone but MR, His actions have made His intentions clear, He has made it clear that my children come first, and that He is serious in His commitment to the collar He placed on me...

i will not call it okay, nor will i ask for anyone's "approval" of it, it is what it is, at 42 and living and losing what i have, i am living what i need, and should i be so lucky i will eventually not have the duality to maintain, but until then this is how my life is, how my heart continues to beat

cali

[Isabelle90]

I love my husband and intend to spend the rest of my life with him and will do everything in my power to ensure he never knows. And I'll deal with the consequences if he ever finds out - good or bad. And yes, I know it would be bad.

If your husband found out and ended your marriage (would he?), would you then be able to begin an open real-life, if it's not already, relationship with your dom?

How would you handle this with your children?

I'm trying to grasp what it would be like to be in this situation.

[caligirl{Rob}]

I have no intention of renegotiating this topic with my husband - and yes, I have a D/s relationship outside my marriage. I didn't go looking for it, it just happened. And I wasn't willing or able to pass up the opportunity. Does that make me a bad person, a bad wife? By society's definition, yes. Am I ignoring my husband for this other person? No. Am I entirely happy about my decision? No. But I'm able to live with it. I love my husband and intend to spend the rest of my life with him and will do everything in my power to ensure he never knows. And I'll deal with the consequences if he ever finds out - good or bad. And yes, I know it would be bad.

But for now, I have my husband - the man I've been with for 22+ years, and I have Him - the Dom I hope to have for many years to come. And I am okay with the situation and rapidly finding the internal balance I need to make it work for me.

*Commence throwing rotten tomatoes*

throws self in front of you...as you definitely do not deserve to have a tomato of any sort lobbed at you *hugs*

[jeanne]

If your husband found out and ended your marriage (would he?), would you then be able to begin an open real-life, if it's not already, relationship with your dom?

How would you handle this with your children?

I'm trying to grasp what it would be like to be in this situation.

Isabelle - I'm fortunate in some ways. I have a real-life relationship with him. Because of distance we are unable to see each other often, but when we do...yes, it's that good.

And my children are almost grown. They are beginning their own lives now and will only be at home another year or two. (Yep, I'm an old lady. :rolleyes: )

If my husband found and then divorced me, would I have a more open relationship with Him? Well, yes and no. I'd see him more often, that's for sure, but he too is married and committed to that marriage so it isn't as if we'd be together always and live happily everafter. But, the time we spend together is so intense, so completely real and so bone-deep satisfying for me that I'm happy with what I get. Very happy with what I get. :)

[jeanne]

throws self in front of you...as you definitely do not deserve to have a tomato of any sort lobbed at you *hugs*

I'm a big girl, cali, I can deal. But thanks! (Remember me telling you in PM that we were in similar situations? This is what I meant.)

*hugs back*

[ThisYouWillDo]

OK - Vows, promises and agreements between life-partners (for want of a better neutral word) that are being adhered to must be binding, and deliberately stepping outside the limits breaks the commitiments given and received. That's cheating.

But eventually, sometimes, those undertakings lapse or are neglected, or just become irrelevant. Nevertheless, the relationship continues, either because it is comfortable, or because it remains a loving relationship notwithstanding its shortcomings. Life changes things over time and relationships alter in response. What was important once might not be now. If one then goes beyond the old agreed limits, is it still cheating? Or if so, does it matter?

You might say, it's only OK if the other partner consents. I say, if it is necessary to obtain permission then it is still important to the relationship (in which case the original undertakings apply). Just because something isn't quite working for one person in a relationship doesn't mean he/she has to highlight it to the other if it can be discretely dealt with separately. To my mind, that would elevate a minor problem to a major issue that could eventually ruin the partnership entirely.

(Sometimes a partnership is forced to continue for economic/family/other reasons or because one partner simply refuses to accept the reality that the relationship has broken down. That is a different situation from what I have described above. And to my mind, there can be no cheating because the undertakings evaporated when the partnership hit the rocks and the "wayward" partner has no duty of fidelity towards the other.)

Isabelle also asks how the couple who are "playing away" can possibly trust each other knowing that they are cheating on at least one other person. Assuming it is cheating, they can't. But I guess they take a calculated risk that it will work for them as far as they want it to. After all, apart from spotty, spunk-filled teenagers bent on destroying Casanova's claim to be the world's best lover, most people want to have an honest relationship with their lover. If there's no trust, then I do not see how the relationship can progress beyond crude sex.

TYWD

[annie]

I have no intention of renegotiating this topic with my husband - and yes, I have a D/s relationship outside my marriage. I didn't go looking for it, it just happened. And I wasn't willing or able to pass up the opportunity. Does that make me a bad person, a bad wife? By society's definition, yes. Am I ignoring my husband for this other person? No. Am I entirely happy about my decision? No. But I'm able to live with it. I love my husband and intend to spend the rest of my life with him and will do everything in my power to ensure he never knows. And I'll deal with the consequences if he ever finds out - good or bad. And yes, I know it would be bad.

But for now, I have my husband - the man I've been with for 22+ years, and I have Him - the Dom I hope to have for many years to come. And I am okay with the situation and rapidly finding the internal balance I need to make it work for me.

*Commence throwing rotten tomatoes*


well i can only speak for myself, my situation and what "works" for me, yes i am married 14+ years, have 2 children and care for my 85 yr old mother, and yes i have a r/l relationship outside of marriage, divorce at this time would be financial ruin for the father of my children, my Dom has my complete trust and respect, knows all of my life, supports me emotionally, fulfills me and makes me so much more of a mother, woman, and caretaker. my ideal would be to be with Him 24/7, and we are working towards that...but for now my children and my responsibilites here keep me here...i have been in therapy and have asked my husband to go also, he has refused, he refuses to discuss our marriage, has little interest in sex and his response to my bringing up the subject of divorce has been only that "if it is what i want".... i do not look or ask for "acceptance" of this from anyone, my children are my priority but i refused to continue to put my needs on hold or deny myself this part of my life, i do not need to prove my trustworthiness or honesty to anyone but MR, His actions have made His intentions clear, He has made it clear that my children come first, and that He is serious in His commitment to the collar He placed on me...

i will not call it okay, nor will i ask for anyone's "approval" of it, it is what it is, at 42 and living and losing what i have, i am living what i need, and should i be so lucky i will eventually not have the duality to maintain, but until then this is how my life is, how my heart continues to beat

cali

Joins Cali and Jeanne.... because I have been there done that, in the exact same fashion for a majority of the exact same reason.... and in retrospect, there is very little I would have changed about it. A relationship outside of my marriage was, at one point, the only thing that kept me safe and here for my kids. I can't regret or feel bad about that although I do feel bad about how/why it came about, but the how/why was not entirely my choice and I did try other options prior to making the choice I made.

[annie]

Isabelle also asks how the couple who are "playing away" can possibly trust each other knowing that they are cheating on at least one other person. Assuming it is cheating, they can't. But I guess they take a calculated risk that it will work for them as far as they want it to. After all, apart from spotty, spunk-filled teenagers bent on destroying Casanova's claim to be the world's best lover, most people want to have an honest relationship with their lover. If there's no trust, then I do not see how the relationship can progress beyond crude sex.

Think it is a matter of what "trust" is defined as for each person just as "playing away" is defined by each person. And honestly, I think in many ways it is easier to build trust in the second relationship, assuming of course that the relationship is a real founded caring relationship and not just a quick sex fest. (Hence where "true vs. play" Dominates come in to my way of thinking.) To me the second relationship was not a "play" relationship. It was true and real and more substantial on most levels then my marriage was. I could trust him to be more open and brutally honest when I needed it, etc. The second relationship isn't just about sex or playing... it is about so much more then that. I have ended relationship/friendship that were being created just on "sex" because that is not what I am seeking... "sex" to me is NOT the point or the reason. There is a different between cheating for sex and cheating due to happiness and fulfillment on other levels. Yes, I know splitting hairs in a way...

After all at that point what else is there to loose? You have learned from your previous mistakes (hopefully) and with the right "second" relationship you are forced, on many levels, to take a look at what you did/do wrong, evaluate it, change it, etc by the simple fact of sharing it with someone else on such an intimate level. Honestly, I knew with my first Dominate, who was also married, what his level of commitment could be, what limitations where on the relationship, etc. I had more trust in him (and still do) then I do in my husband daily... not sure I can explain it....

And just to confuse the topic more... there are times that I find that the second relationship actually enhances the first without the other partners knowledge. If I am being more fulfilled and being made happier due to whatever reason/source I am less likely to take the small annoying things and blow them out of portion. I am calmer, more able to focus, etc. All of which have positive impacts on the marriage....

[Playfulsub]

In the end, we couldn't work out our differences, which included things outside of the bedroom, and I chose to leave rather than stay and do what I knew would happen eventually...which is that I would either cheat on him or be placed back on antidepressants or both....


Do you have children, Flaming-Redhead? The ONLY reason I am still in my marriage is because I really don't want to pull the rug out from under my kids. My husband is not physically or verbally abusive, (although his constant negativity and criticism wears on my self esteem sometimes), he's not an alcoholic, he's not a 'bad' person. It's just that after 15 years, he has no idea who I am. Why? Because he never hears me. Ever. It's intensely frustrating to be disappointed time and time again. And I can relate the to 'being placed on anti-depressants' part. But, I feel for the sake of my kids, it's best to stay for now.

[Playfulsub]

(Sometimes a partnership is forced to continue for economic/family/other reasons or because one partner simply refuses to accept the reality that the relationship has broken down. That is a different situation from what I have described above. And to my mind, there can be no cheating because the undertakings evaporated when the partnership hit the rocks and the "wayward" partner has no duty of fidelity towards the other.)

Bingo.

[annie]

Do you have children, Flaming-Redhead? The ONLY reason I am still in my marriage is because I really don't want to pull the rug out from under my kids. My husband is not physically or verbally abusive, (although his constant negativity and criticism wears on my self esteem sometimes), he's not an alcoholic, he's not a 'bad' person. It's just that after 15 years, he has no idea who I am. Why? Because he never hears me. Ever. It's intensely frustrating to be disappointed time and time again. And I can relate the to 'being placed on anti-depressants' part. But, I feel for the sake of my kids, it's best to stay for now.

I am in that same spot.... but you know... something happened the other day that makes me reconsider if my staying for the sake of the kids is REALLY the best option...

We were arguing. Which actually doesn't happen often... once a quarter or less normally and in this argument I got fed up and left the room. Our youngest (5 years old) had gotten up and over heard a large portion of it. When I left the room she proceeded to go in and tell daddy that "you have the choice to leave instead." :eek: Her exact words. So... the question becomes... am I helping the kids or hurting them worse?

(Sorry... this is actually sidetracking this thread a bit, if it gets too bad I'll see about splitting the two!)

[Isabelle90]

*Commence throwing rotten tomatoes*

There will be no throwing of food, rotten or otherwise!!! :dont: Who are any of us to judge? I certainly am not!


divorce at this time would be financial ruin for the father of my children, my Dom has my complete trust and respect, knows all of my life, supports me emotionally, fulfills me and makes me so much more of a mother, woman, and caretaker.

Cali, you are extremely unselfish! I cannot imagine putting myself through the emotional rollercoaster you must be in. In my opinion, the openness is which you have with your dom is awesome! Hopefully it is helping to balance your life. :)


Life changes things over time and relationships alter in response. What was important once might not be now. If one then goes beyond the old agreed limits, is it still cheating? Or if so, does it matter?

Isabelle also asks how the couple who are "playing away" can possibly trust each other knowing that they are cheating on at least one other person.

TYWD


TYWD, I think that is what Flaming Red was kind of saying. People and relationships change over time. I guess it's just a matter how we choose to deal with those changes.

I didn't use the phrase "playing away" because I don't think that anyone that has a D/s relationship outside of their marriage would ever consider it that. If it were just "playing," most of us would probably agree that that would be selfish and considered cheating. (Really, though, I'm not judging!)


These are simply questions that float through my head. Anyone that knows me, even here, knows that I ask questions! Not out of judgement, but out of curiosity. I have a need to learn and understand.

Think of me as Oprah, only without the billion dollars!!!

Next up......polyamorous people. What say you?

[ThisYouWillDo]

A quick note of explanation. Over here, when a soccer team visits another town for a football match, they are "playing away." You might call them the "visiting team". The phrase has come to be used in the UK to refer to people who are having extra-marital relationships.

I was not referring only to people who were "playing" when I used the term, but also to people who were conducting serious relationships outside their marriage/partnership.

TYWD

[caligirl{Rob}]

(Hence where "true vs. play" Dominates come in to my way of thinking.)

And just to confuse the topic more... there are times that I find that the second relationship actually enhances the first without the other partners knowledge. If I am being more fulfilled and being made happier due to whatever reason/source I am less likely to take the small annoying things and blow them out of portion. I am calmer, more able to focus, etc. All of which have positive impacts on the marriage....

How very well stated annie! i have returned from visits with MR to hearing "You should go off more often as it seems to do you so well"

i can also relate to not always knowing when or if staying or going is the best for anyone...it is as i stated what it is...and whatever it is it is ALWAYS given thought...i have no delusions of "happily ever after" or life without conflict, it is not easy to stay and it will not be easy to leave...i am blessed to have in my life a strong, confident, caring Dom and partner who wants to take me on as a "whole package"

hugs!
cali

[Flaming_Redhead]

Do you have children, Flaming-Redhead? The ONLY reason I am still in my marriage is because I really don't want to pull the rug out from under my kids. My husband is not physically or verbally abusive, (although his constant negativity and criticism wears on my self esteem sometimes), he's not an alcoholic, he's not a 'bad' person. It's just that after 15 years, he has no idea who I am. Why? Because he never hears me. Ever. It's intensely frustrating to be disappointed time and time again. And I can relate the to 'being placed on anti-depressants' part. But, I feel for the sake of my kids, it's best to stay for now.

Yes, I have a 4-year-old son. The same can be said of my ex-husband. He didn't drink, do drugs, cuss, hit me, etc. I could've done a lot worse, I guess. Just because he wasn't a bad person didn't mean he wasn't a bad husband. In the end, he did became verbally abusive in an effort to keep me from leaving him...telling me no one would ever love me....I'm simply unlovable....is that a word? He told me I couldn't make it without him....I'd end up with someone who'd treat me like shit....that my son would be all messed up from the broken home.....etc. *sigh* I don't believe "staying for the kids" does any good for the people in the relationship or the kids. Your kids are learning how relationships work from YOU. If all they ever see is a total lack of respect for each other, cold silence, bickering, fighting, nagging, etc., what are you teaching them, really? It's okay to treat your spouse like crap? This is how normal married people live? My mom stayed married to an alcoholic "for the kids" and financial stability. Um...I didn't see it as any great favor to me! I could've done without all that, really. If you can put on a happy face until your kids are grown, how in the hell are you going to explain that their entire life has been a lie? Just something to think about....

[Ozme52]

I am in that same spot.... but you know... something happened the other day that makes me reconsider if my staying for the sake of the kids is REALLY the best option...

We were arguing. Which actually doesn't happen often... once a quarter or less normally and in this argument I got fed up and left the room. Our youngest (5 years old) had gotten up and over heard a large portion of it. When I left the room she proceeded to go in and tell daddy that "you have the choice to leave instead." :eek: Her exact words. So... the question becomes... am I helping the kids or hurting them worse?

(Sorry... this is actually sidetracking this thread a bit, if it gets too bad I'll see about splitting the two!)

It's an interesting conundrum. How much do the kids know, how much do they understand. We were older but my sister and I wished our parents had separated 10 years earlier than they did. I think all four of us (parents and kids) would have been happier. AND I think both my parents would have had a better chance at finding compatible 2nd partners.

[Ozme52]

Think of me as Oprah, only without the billion dollars!!!


I need a new car!! :wave:

[Ozme52]

A quick note of explanation. Over here, when a soccer team visits another town for a football match, they are "playing away." You might call them the "visiting team". The phrase has come to be used in the UK to refer to people who are having extra-marital relationships.

I was not referring only to people who were "playing" when I used the term, but also to people who were conducting serious relationships outside their marriage/partnership.

TYWD


Thanx!! I love learning new idioms. :D

[Ozme52]

Next up......polyamorous people. What say you?

I suggest you start another thread.
This one probably hasn't run its course yet. :cool:

[caligirl{Rob}]

Yes, I have a 4-year-old son. The same can be said of my ex-husband. He didn't drink, do drugs, cuss, hit me, etc. I could've done a lot worse, I guess. Just because he wasn't a bad person didn't mean he wasn't a bad husband. In the end, he did became verbally abusive in an effort to keep me from leaving him...telling me no one would ever love me....I'm simply unlovable....is that a word? He told me I couldn't make it without him....I'd end up with someone who'd treat me like shit....that my son would be all messed up from the broken home.....etc. *sigh* I don't believe "staying for the kids" does any good for the people in the relationship or the kids. Your kids are learning how relationships work from YOU. If all they ever see is a total lack of respect for each other, cold silence, bickering, fighting, nagging, etc., what are you teaching them, really? It's okay to treat your spouse like crap? This is how normal married people live? My mom stayed married to an alcoholic "for the kids" and financial stability. Um...I didn't see it as any great favor to me! I could've done without all that, really. If you can put on a happy face until your kids are grown, how in the hell are you going to explain that their entire life has been a lie? Just something to think about....

respectfully i can only speak for myself, i hope that my children never think of their lives as a lie, that they realize their parents are and were not perfect, are human and did and do make the choices that they believe are the best at the time. Personally i've had friends whose parents divorced and they are sure things would have been better if they'd stuck it out, and ones who wished that mom and dad had called it quits, it is impossible to step into anyone else's shoes. i balance each and every decision i make as i'm sure others do in their circumstances. So i never expect to have to explain to my kids anything about their lives not being anything but real, with the ups and downs, foibles and follies and all else that life entails. So something to think about for me each day is that i love my kids beyond words (and they know it!)...their life is real, their mom is human and the good bad and ugly, she works to give them the best life, not the perfect life, the best...they may or may not agree or disagree with the choices made, but there will never be a moment they can doubt that it was made with the best intentions

[Flaming_Redhead]

So, the kids grow up thinking mom and dad are happy and everything is fine, and after about 18 years, when they're teens, you tell them you're divorcing....um....okay....well....my ex-sister-in-law did that. Her kids had the $120 Adidas sneakers and whatever else they wanted growing up, but when she dropped the D bomb, her kids went ballistic! Her daughter had just graduated from high school. She ran off from home and got pregnant instead of going to college. Her middle child graduated the next year and joined the Marines to get away. Her youngest got ulcers. They barely have anything to do with their father. So much for the kids being old enough to "handle" it....

My son was 2. I don't think he even remembers us together, which is probably a good thing. We have to do what we think is best. Sometimes, we're wrong. My mom was wrong. I don't know if I was wrong or not, yet. I sure as hell hope I haven't screwed up my kid for life! *sigh*

[Isabelle90]

I need a new car!! :wave:

Did you notice the part about NOT having the billion dollars?!! Santa might be a better fictitious character to ask. (Hope I didn't just give away the secret to an unknowing soul!)


I suggest you start another thread.
This one probably hasn't run its course yet. :cool:

Really? I was trying to lighten the mood.


respectfully i can only speak for myself, i hope that my children never think of their lives as a lie, that they realize their parents are and were not perfect, are human and did and do make the choices that they believe are the best at the time. Personally i've had friends whose parents divorced and they are sure things would have been better if they'd stuck it out, and ones who wished that mom and dad had called it quits, it is impossible to step into anyone else's shoes. i balance each and every decision i make as i'm sure others do in their circumstances. So i never expect to have to explain to my kids anything about their lives not being anything but real, with the ups and downs, foibles and follies and all else that life entails. So something to think about for me each day is that i love my kids beyond words (and they know it!)...their life is real, their mom is human and the good bad and ugly, she works to give them the best life, not the perfect life, the best...they may or may not agree or disagree with the choices made, but there will never be a moment they can doubt that it was made with the best intentions


So, the kids grow up thinking mom and dad are happy and everything is fine, and after about 18 years, when they're teens, you tell them you're divorcing....um....okay....well....my ex-sister-in-law did that. Her kids had the $120 Adidas sneakers and whatever else they wanted growing up, but when she dropped the D bomb, her kids went ballistic! Her daughter had just graduated from high school. She ran off from home and got pregnant instead of going to college. Her middle child graduated the next year and joined the Marines to get away. Her youngest got ulcers. They barely have anything to do with their father. So much for the kids being old enough to "handle" it....

My son was 2. I don't think he even remembers us together, which is probably a good thing. We have to do what we think is best. Sometimes, we're wrong. My mom was wrong. I don't know if I was wrong or not, yet. I sure as hell hope I haven't screwed up my kid for life! *sigh*

My parents divorced when I was 25 after 27 years of marriage. I was an adult, but it was painful. The only relationship outside of marriage was one with alcohol. Anyway, even now it is difficult for our family to be together. My brother and I have children and refuse to have separate birthdays, baptisms, etc.

Here's the deal (in my mind - which we all know is questionable) I believe that as parents, we set the foundation for our children. How they "turn out" is ultimately determined by our parenting skills, or lack thereof. One cannot really judge the parenting skills of another based on the follies of teenagers. (Flaming Red, you probably know more about your nieces' & nephews' upbringing to have a greater understanding of their particular situation.) It's the end result that speaks volumes.

Flaming Red & Cali, I think you are both doing what you think is best for YOU and YOURS! Isn't that the best thing all around?

[caligirl{Rob}]

my kids don't get everything they want, i love them, their father loves them, i don't live in anyone else's skin, nor do they in mine...kids go ballistic in all sorts of homes and situations,...and for me it has not to do with them being older to "handle" it...it has to do with the realities of life, my life, my situation, my responsibility...as i said earlier i do not look for approval...am i wrong...some of the time, am i right...some of the time...i appreciate all of your experiences..to think that any decision made is done without thought for consequences is wrong, i do not propose that anyone staying or leaving a marriage is right or wrong...the individual factors involved would make it an impossible feat to predict

[annie]

As far as child rearing and the situation...

Probably one of the few things hubby and I agree on unconditionally. Our goal... to be the best possible parents, ensure they have a good education, etc. so that they can afford to pay for counseling, due to our errors, both known and unknown, when they get older. Seems like a reasonable solution... ;)

[caligirl{Rob}]

As far as child rearing and the situation...

Probably one of the few things hubby and I agree on unconditionally. Our goal... to be the best possible parents, ensure they have a good education, etc. so that they can afford to pay for counseling, due to our errors, both known and unknown, when they get older. Seems like a reasonable solution... ;)

lmao! sounds like a damn great plan to me!

[Captain]

I think any kind of relationship without the other partner’s knowing and consenting, is cheating. I hope that if it ever came to this, that I would have the balls to end the relationship before entering into a new one (out of respect for everyone involved).

My wife had a friend a few years ago who was having an affair with a married man. I think her friend knew it was wrong, but was always seeking justification and approval from my wife. My wife did not believe it was right and would not give her approval. I could tell that it was really bothering my wife, so I told her to stop hanging out with her.

My marriage isn’t perfect. My wife has even talked about leaving when we’ve had problems, but I have complete faith that she would not cheat on me (maybe I’m just too naive). We are starting to communicate better….or I should say that I’m starting to communicate better, she never had a problem. BDSM and this forum have been huge factors in helping me be more open with her. I never understood her submissive side until I learned about it on the internet. I have always been very calm, reserved and quiet, as well as the rest of my family. I regret that it’s taken me this long to realize how important communication is in our relationship (verbal and non verbal).

The posts above talk about how their lives have changed over time. Ours is no exception. My wife admits that she probably wouldn’t have been interested in BDSM 10 years ago, now she can’t get enough. Neither can I !!! I never knew she was willing to do so many things to make me happy!!

Well I certainly don’t have all of the answers or consider myself to be on some kind of “moral high ground”, but in almost every case I would not condone cheating. I say almost, because I know every situation if different. No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.

[Stone]

Ok

I will pipe in on this you will either hate what I say or love it.When you get married you make a sacred vow to your partner in front of your family friends and god. I have yet to hear of anyones vowes stating I will only be faithful to you if I am happy. I will only be faithful to you if I get what I want. I will only be faithful to you if I do not find someone new and exciting.

If your read that carefully the term "I" alot no we no us. this is a sign of the times everyone only cares about themselfs. To those who say they cheat to stay with thier husband and children?????? WTF? does that really make any sence to you at all? That is like saying ohhh I am going to go shoot myslef to avoid being murdered in some random act of violence or an accident or something along those lines. If you really careed about your kids you would split instead of the very real and very possible really nasty divorce.

Now to those who do it online behind your spouces back online. Well this is where people will say its online and its really not cheating it is online........Well I have seen stated by these very same people that an online relationship is very real and it is a real relationship.....hypocrytes use one side of the arguement to excuse it and the other to defend it.

I have been in that stagnet relationship I have a child I lost total sexual interest in my partner I stayed with her for financial reason for the child for any and every reason anyone can come up with and guess what I did not cheat but I came to the realization that it was doing me her and the child harm...kids are alot smarter than people give them credit for you might not think they know there is something wrong but they might.

I have yet to hear a good excuse to cheat and stay with your spouse, Now if its ok with your spouse then it is ok..... to each their own.

Plus lets not forget one fact the cheaters should not forget once a cheater allways a cheater

[sidhewolf]

Many have said that a D/s relationship is one of honesty and respect. If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?

It seems, to me, that this is not an uncommon practice, and I was curious as to what others thought of the matter.

Personally, I am a more "concrete" person. That is, grasping my mind around an online relationship is much like reading something by Stephen Hawking. It takes some time for it to sink in. I need to see, touch, taste, smell, and hear. I don't possess the sixth sense. "Abstract" does not really appeal to me as much. Ye of little faith and all that?

Isabelle I Agree with Your last paragraph largely. And the "need to see, touch, taste, smell"...though I do also have that 6th sense <G>. Online relating *to me* is not my Real Life. I do think online Roleplay is fun, and sometimes interesting, and online Friend(s) are fine. I in fact posted a topic this morning with questions to Other(s) about online Relating perspectives.

To Your question; " If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?"

I would say there's no way to Know Truly. If someone You know or are close to is lying to or cheating on someone they know or close to/Committed to, whatever would allow one to even think they won't have a go at that same situation with that person? I personally think a person is only as good as their word. If one wishes to Change their Agreements with their Partner(s), then the appropriate action would be to Re-Negotiate (if possible) or end the Relationship. Anyone can make any excuse for not keeping their Agreements with Other(s), but the bottom line *to me* is that one who does not keep their word, re-negotiate, or end what isn't working for them, has no guts to Live their Life, nor Honor. This is just my opinion, noone elses, and my response.

To Your Question; "When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage?".

I would say when it has been discussed and Agreed to, or Re-negotiated.
And again this is just my thoughts and opinion on the matter.

To the 2nd part of Your above question; "If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?"

I think this depends on the terms of ones Agreement(s) with their Partner(s). Whatever ones Agreements are, they should be Honored and complied with, re-negotiated, or ended.

Respectfully~SidheWolf

[TheVariableX]

I found this all rather depressing. Maybe we need a thread where people can tell us some success stories too.

[caligirl{Rob}]

i shall retreat to my glass house.....and leave the stones outside for others to throw...

[ThisYouWillDo]

Kids know.

Kids know grown-ups fuck-up.

I did.

My mother often threatened to leave, but she didn't.

This wasn't D/s ... just abuse.

She only got her life back when my father died. At least she had enough time left to enjoy it.

TYWD

(I think this is off topic a bit, or the topic has changed. Oh well - I got it off my chest and saved a fortune in psychiatrist's fees!)

[sipgirl]

I dont have much to add to this, but I will say this. The phrase "Once a cheater, always a cheater." Is simply not true, at least not in the experience of myself and the friends I discussed this topic and this post with last night. Cheating isnt always done because the cheater is a sexual deviant, cant control their urges, just wants to have sex. Cheating is also a form of escape for many whos marriages and/or relationships are disintegrating, abusive, one sided or for those who feel they are no longer emotionally attached to their significant other.
Everyone has their own opinions on this subject and it is mine that physical cheating involving sex or physical contact is one thing. Cheating with someone because you have feelings for them or they provide to you emotionally what you arent getting with your partner is another. Sex is sex...almost anyone can lay down and do it. Having an emotional attachment to someone other then your partner is very, very different. I am not defending cheating nor am I condemnig those who choose to do it and I am lucky enough that my husband happens to be my Dom. What I am saying is that no relationship is perfect, no human is perfect and really no one here has a right to judge either way.
May you find whatever it is that you are looking for.

[Ozme52]

i shall retreat to my glass house.....and leave the stones outside for others to throw...


You have my thoughts elsewhere.

I will await your return here as well. :rose:

[Isabelle90]

I found this all rather depressing. Maybe we need a thread where people can tell us some success stories too.


I'm with you X! I was trying to understand the dynamics of all of it, but whew! This was almost (almost) as intense as some of the threads on politics and religion.

Perhaps, I should stick to lighter topics, or fun and games.

[thrall]

I'm with you X! I was trying to understand the dynamics of all of it, but whew! This was almost (almost) as intense as some of the threads on politics and religion.

Perhaps, I should stick to lighter topics, or fun and games.

Dont you worry about it honey........ask away.. that is the intent of the forum. It is a very good topic.......Its just some times you may hit a raw nerve.....hugs

I agree with Cali about glass houses........hugs Cali.....and hands her an ice pack.

[annie]

I was going to post in response to several and defend my choice(s). But, have decided against it.

Basically, unless you are me and have lived the EXACT life, with the same people, circumstances, etc. then your words and response to this topic are nothing more then that. Yours. You may have handled the situations differently, but that is something that can never be completely proven... since you are NOT me.

We are all entitled too our opinions, just as I am entitled to make the choices I feel are best for me and mine. We can either agree to disagree on those views and move on or not. But I will no longer defend myself to anyone for being who I am and making the decisions I felt necessary in my situation. No one has to agree with me... but it isn't fair to judge or insult me in the process.

[thrall]

Alright everyone..........i think we may be scaring off a newby here.........

She is asking about HOW you can and Do accomplish a on-line D/s relationship and still be married......

What she needs and is asking for, is the support of everyone in discovering herself....the how's and how-to of having a marriage and an on line Dom......

Do not assume that she is being dishonest and that her husband does not know what is happing...........she is honestly looking for opinions........


ON HOW TO BE A SUBMISSIVE TRAPPED IN A VANILLA WORLD.........LETS TRY AND GET IT BACK ON TRACT FOR HER SHALL WE???

thrall

[Flaming_Redhead]

She asked how you can have a D/s relationship outside of a marriage and still have honesty, and she also asked when is it okay to go outside the marriage to start a D/s relationship. Everyone is giving their honest opinion on what is oftentimes a volatile subject. I won't say it's okay if I don't think it is, but it's not my decision to make for anyone but ME. We are all responsible for the decisions we make and must ultimately bear the consequences of those decisions. Sometimes our decisions affect other people directly or indirectly, either positively or negatively. That being said, if you're going to air your dirty laundry on a public forum, don't be surprised if not everyone approves of your skidmarked underwear. Eww...that was kinda gross....*ggls* Anyway, it's like having kinks...what works for some doesn't work for others.

[thrall]

She asked how you can have a D/s relationship outside of a marriage and still have honesty, and she also asked when is it okay to go outside the marriage to start a D/s relationship. Everyone is giving their honest opinion on what is oftentimes a volatile subject. I won't say it's okay if I don't think it is, but it's not my decision to make for anyone but ME. We are all responsible for the decisions we make and must ultimately bear the consequences of those decisions. Sometimes our decisions affect other people directly or indirectly, either positively or negatively. That being said, if you're going to air your dirty laundry on a public forum, don't be surprised if not everyone approves of your skidmarked underwear. Eww...that was kinda gross....*ggls* Anyway, it's like having kinks...what works for some doesn't work for others.

Flaming....i love you honey........but that kind of statement isn't going to make her very comfy in asking for information or posting a new thread now is it??


I understand that everyone is giving there honest opinion......and bravo for that.....

What im saying is that she is uncomfortable in the hostile turn of events........this was not the direction she wanted this thread to go.......

yes........she asked a two part question, so it hard to separate the two.


What she wants is the knowledge...........OF HOW TO EXPLORE HER NEW FOUND SUBMISSIVENESS........IN AN ON LINE WORLD.

And she is being very honest about what she is doing...........


OK, so i will start........

Yes you can have an on line relationship and explore you needs...........just be honest about everything you do with your husband. Let him know what you are doing and who you are talking to.

hugs..........

[annie]

Flaming....i love you honey........but that kind of statement isn't going to make her very comfy in asking for information or posting a new thread now is it??


I understand that everyone is giving there honest opinion......and bravo for that.....

What im saying is that she is uncomfortable in the hostile turn of events........this was not the direction she wanted this thread to go.......

yes........she asked a two part question, so it hard to separate the two.


What she wants is the knowledge...........OF HOW TO EXPLORE HER NEW FOUND SUBMISSIVENESS........IN AN ON LINE WORLD.

And she is being very honest about what she is doing...........


OK, so i will start........

Yes you can have an on line relationship and explore you needs...........just be honest about everything you do with your husband. Let him know what you are doing and who you are talking to.

hugs..........

Thrall,

What she asked was...
If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?

And both of those questions have been answered by the people who posted in this thread. Just as you answered it... but each answer is still each persons own opinions. Bottom line, we are sharing out experiences, which is what she asked for from my understanding of the above question. The nature of the topic will at times create a heated atmosphere but ultimately she has to decide what works best for her. No one can decide that for her. And there is no cookie cutter answer to her questions.

She seems to be holding her own so far... I would guess that if she wanted platitudes she wouldn't be here.

[ThisYouWillDo]

A lively thread will not only deal with the questions originally posed, but will follow up incidental matters too. I don't think anyone has posted anything scary on this topic (except me perhaps - lol) and it will get back to the original question if anyone has any more to add. Then it will fade away or it will fly off at a complete tangent and deal with something else.

I love Isabelle's questions. She has a knack of exposing areas of D/s that people should have clear ideas about, but who too often have muddled opinions. And I'm one of the most muddled, I think.

TYWD

[Isabelle90]

Thrall was only trying to keep the thread on track as to my original questions. Thank you!

I was not passing judgement on anyone, but only wanted to know how people felt about it. Opinions can be strong and come from places deep within our souls. I want honest answers, but no pointing fingers, throwing food or rocks! Not that any were, but it felt a bit tense and a little depressing, like X said earlier.

Red, I will look at your skid marks, but I refuse to wash them!!! LOL

TYWD, so glad you enjoy my questions!!! You know I've got plenty!

[thrall]

hugs honey..........any time

[caged]

This IS a very interesting topic. There are loads of threads on these boards where various means of controlling a slave or sub are criticised because they apparently show there is no trust in the d/s relationship.

These comments often make me think 'God, I am just terrible, because I CAN'T honestly say I would never ever masturbate without permission without a chastity belt on, or would always always do my tasks without threat of punishment' etc etc. So...it's nice to remember that many of us on here indulge in the bdsm world secretly behind our partners' back.

And no, that's not a dig at anyone, because I've been there myself.

[Stone]

I was only giving my honest opinion I have experance in being in a failing relatioinship hell 2 of them but D/S saved my second one. I do understand not being happy But why not solve that problem before adding to it? I have seen the results of cheating on people and their families we all have and I have seen the results of people staying together and being uphappy and its affect on all involved. Life is full of choices we make them everyday some are harder than others.


Ok now to her questions of how to have a seperate relationship outside of a marrage? well it would take a very open minded husband. It will take honesty.

How to know if you can trust anyone? That is a hard one its often the people you trust the most that end up hurting you the most. I will say this and its something I have learned from personal experiance people who tell the truth well most of the time think everyone else is like them and they tell the truth most of the time.....people who lie most of the time assume that others lie most of the time its human nature to put your beliefs on others.

last thing about judging people we all do it if we admit it or not.

[Flaming_Redhead]

And reds, I'll come over and look at your skidmarked undies ANY time *giggles*


Red, I will look at your skid marks, but I refuse to wash them!!! LOL

ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!

[NightNurse]

Many have said that a D/s relationship is one of honesty and respect. If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?



I took quite awhile and read all of the posts in this thread.. Besides feeling the strain in my eyes.. I'm feeling envious- ( of Oz and Captain and sipgirl..) and I'm feeling empathy for those who are submissive in a vanilla marriage that just isn't working......

Everyone here has had so much to say.... and everyone is entitled to their opinion... so here's mine.

For the first question... only you can decide what you believe.
The second question- No one can tell you when it's "okay" to do anything. YOU are the one who has to decide that.

Life would be soooo much easier if we could get concrete, black and white answers to questions like that wouldn't it?

As for all of the references to "cheating" and the breaking of marriage vows.. Why is it that everyone always reacts so strongly to that- when reality is the first vows usually broken are "love and cherish". If those vows weren't broken, maybe the remain faithful vow wouldn't be either.....

prepared for rotten vegetables and stones....

[Isabelle90]

IWe are starting to communicate better….or I should say that I’m starting to communicate better, she never had a problem.
....
I regret that it’s taken me this long to realize how important communication is in our relationship (verbal and non verbal).
....
I never knew she was willing to do so many things to make me happy!!


I have yet to hear of anyones vowes stating I will only be faithful to you if I am happy. I will only be faithful to you if I get what I want. I will only be faithful to you if I do not find someone new and exciting.

If your read that carefully the term "I" alot no we no us.


Why is it that everyone always reacts so strongly to that- when reality is the first vows usually broken are "love and cherish". If those vows weren't broken, maybe the remain faithful vow wouldn't be either.....[/I]


NurseNight you have great point with the love and cherish. Perhaps one or both people in a marriage are not feeling loved or being cherished. Isn't that ultimately what D/s relationships are all about?

Captain talked about how he and his wife worked together to change things. MasterStone commented about the "I" factor. Do you think that if couples worked on the love and cherish part as a "we" they could overcome and meet in the middle? Of course that would be wonderful!

I've heard people complain about their vanilla spouses, but are they doing anything to help the situation? Captain spoke about communication, MasterStone spoke of selfishness, two things that need be addressed in any marriage, in my opinion.

Tessa had a thread called "My Journey" that spoke to the challenges of bringing a spouse into this lifestyle. She seems to be doing it, albeit slowly (based on her posts). I've read enough threads and posts to get an idea of what goes on "behind spouses backs." The question of whether it's appropriate or not is so compelling to me.

MasterStone, you're right. We do judge. Maybe it's human nature, but I don't think it's always necessary to point fingers and openly criticize others. You stated your opinion and that's what I asked! Thank you!

The Bible, I believe, speaks about getting your own house in order first. We (society in general) tend to want to put the focus on others so that our own flaws aren't so apparent. Whether or not you are of any faith in particular, or none at all, the basic principal remains.

Here's the deal: I ask questions whether or not I have a desire to pursue anything. One cannot learn without asking questions. A dear friend told me recently that I would put most cats to shame with my curiosity. I wasn't offended! :)

[thrall]

HUGS

Ask away honey.........*wink*.......ask, ask, ask......

[His_blizzard]

I can only tell you this. I have known Cali since I joined the Library and I have met MR in person. They are truly in love and I believe that when the time is right they will be together and be very happy. I hope it can be soon. They were blessed to find one another.
I just had an ugly wake up call and may not have all the time in the world to finally be with Dragon, as we had once thought. (We have no other relationships in our way, but we have elderly parents and job responsibilities that keep us apart). And even though he is ill, I still can't leave to be with him, as much as I would like to. Mean old Master insists on being "practical". Pfffft! However, I would strongly encourage anyone that has had a long term, real life relationship with their Dominant or submissive, and are totally confident that this is what they need to be happy, to do whatever they can to make that relationship exclusive.
Just my 2 copper tarns worth..... "peace" ~blizz~

[Ruby]

What a great thread. Excellent questions and wonderful responses.


Many have said that a D/s relationship is one of honesty and respect. If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

This one is tricky. How can anyone know that anyone else is being honest? Can we ever. It's about trusting that other person and keeping your eyes open at the same time.

I trust my Nat to be honest with me and I am honest with him. It works for us.


When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage?

For me, it was "okay" when my T, my husband and partner of 20+ years, approved of my online role-playing writing partners. When the writing progressed into something else, he was there every step of the way. Reading what was written and deciding with me, if I could, would or should continue. When my Nat, wrote and asked about becoming my submissive, T and I took quite some time to review and approve his request.

For more background about Nat and me: http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3419

By the way, the relationship is still going strong. All with my T's approval.

I often feel guilty at having a fantastic marriage. It wasn't always so, but T and I have worked very hard on staying best friends and getting over the nasty bumps that life throws at us.


If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?


Whew! That's a big question and I agree with others. It's a personal choice and a choice that can and will affect the marriage. It's a choice that's up to you. We make our choices and then we have to live with them.

My T is very dominant, he's my dom. Yet he decided to let Mistress Ruby come out to play. Lucky me, cause, "I switch, therefore I am."

If T told me, or asked me, not to have Nat as my submissive, we would honor his request. It doesn't mean that Nat and I wouldn't remain friends, yet "that" part of our relationship would be closed.

Would we still write together? Stories like this one:
http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3882

I certainly hope so! T isn't cruel enought to keep me from enjoying my naughty side via my writing.

[caligirl{Rob}]

I can only tell you this. I have known Cali since I joined the Library and I have met MR in person. They are truly in love and I believe that when the time is right they will be together and be very happy. I hope it can be soon. They were blessed to find one another.
I just had an ugly wake up call and may not have all the time in the world to finally be with Dragon, as we had once thought. (We have no other relationships in our way, but we have elderly parents and job responsibilities that keep us apart). And even though he is ill, I still can't leave to be with him, as much as I would like to. Mean old Master insists on being "practical". Pfffft! However, I would strongly encourage anyone that has had a long term, real life relationship with their Dominant or submissive, and are totally confident that this is what they need to be happy, to do whatever they can to make that relationship exclusive.
Just my 2 copper tarns worth..... "peace" ~blizz~

i love you so much blizz!! and you know my thoughts and prayers are with you and Dragon always (darn practical Doms!") HUGS!!


I was going to post in response to several and defend my choice(s). But, have decided against it.

Basically, unless you are me and have lived the EXACT life, with the same people, circumstances, etc. then your words and response to this topic are nothing more then that. Yours. You may have handled the situations differently, but that is something that can never be completely proven... since you are NOT me.

We are all entitled too our opinions, just as I am entitled to make the choices I feel are best for me and mine. We can either agree to disagree on those views and move on or not. But I will no longer defend myself to anyone for being who I am and making the decisions I felt necessary in my situation. No one has to agree with me... but it isn't fair to judge or insult me in the process.

that was beautifully stated annie...no way to improve on perfection! HUGS!


She asked how you can have a D/s relationship outside of a marriage and still have honesty, and she also asked when is it okay to go outside the marriage to start a D/s relationship. Everyone is giving their honest opinion on what is oftentimes a volatile subject. I won't say it's okay if I don't think it is, but it's not my decision to make for anyone but ME. We are all responsible for the decisions we make and must ultimately bear the consequences of those decisions. Sometimes our decisions affect other people directly or indirectly, either positively or negatively. That being said, if you're going to air your dirty laundry on a public forum, don't be surprised if not everyone approves of your skidmarked underwear. Eww...that was kinda gross....*ggls* Anyway, it's like having kinks...what works for some doesn't work for others.

silly me looked at it as honestly answering a serious question with the thoughtful and open view of the reality of my own life, my own experience, and difficult choices made to get through each day...that is obviously something that is not wise to do...i don't apologize nor seek approval, but also don't expect the willingness to share part of my experience as open season to be judged

[Flaming_Redhead]

silly me looked at it as honestly answering a serious question with the thoughtful and open view of the reality of my own life, my own experience, and difficult choices made to get through each day...that is obviously something that is not wise to do...i don't apologize nor seek approval, but also don't expect the willingness to share part of my experience as open season to be judged

I don't think you owe anyone here an apology nor do you need anyone here to approve of what you do. However, expecting not to be judged is a bit naive. Hell, I've been called sick, twisted and dangerous by fellow BDSMers because of some of my kinks, which was kind of surprising since I don't consider myself as hard core as some people.

[caligirl{Rob}]

I don't think you owe anyone here an apology nor do you need anyone here to approve of what you do. However, expecting not to be judged is a bit naive. Hell, I've been called sick, twisted and dangerous by fellow BDSMers because of some of my kinks, which was kind of surprising since I don't consider myself as hard core as some people.

good to know ....judgement and snarky comments for humors sake is a good reason to avoid trying to offer any insight

[Playfulsub]

I have a positive update to add to this thread. Namely, my husband and I had a really enlightening conversation this weekend. In short, we talked a lot about the problems in our marriage in the past, and our communication issues. And you know what? I really, really think he understands this time. And he apologized for not understanding in the past.

Anyway, we both made a commitment to really make an honest effort to make our marriage work. We're also going to explore the potential of a D/s relationship as we regain our trust in each other. So, I might be needing some feedback from those of you who are in D/s relationships with your long-time spouses. :)

Feeling optimistic,

playful

[Ozme52]

That would be outstanding. I hope it plays out for you... and if not... at least you'll know you gave it another shot before looking elsewhere.

[caligirl{Rob}]

that is wonderful news! It is always a good thing when people are able to communicate...wishing you all the best!
hugs!
cali


I have a positive update to add to this thread. Namely, my husband and I had a really enlightening conversation this weekend. In short, we talked a lot about the problems in our marriage in the past, and our communication issues. And you know what? I really, really think he understands this time. And he apologized for not understanding in the past.

Anyway, we both made a commitment to really make an honest effort to make our marriage work. We're also going to explore the potential of a D/s relationship as we regain our trust in each other. So, I might be needing some feedback from those of you who are in D/s relationships with your long-time spouses. :)

Feeling optimistic,

playful

[Ruby]

Congratulations, playful

May your relationship with your husband flourish,

Ruby

[Isabelle90]

I have a positive update to add to this thread. Namely, my husband and I had a really enlightening conversation this weekend. In short, we talked a lot about the problems in our marriage in the past, and our communication issues. And you know what? I really, really think he understands this time. And he apologized for not understanding in the past.

Anyway, we both made a commitment to really make an honest effort to make our marriage work. We're also going to explore the potential of a D/s relationship as we regain our trust in each other. So, I might be needing some feedback from those of you who are in D/s relationships with your long-time spouses. :)

Feeling optimistic,

playful

I'm a sucker for a happy ending!!!! Even more so for the romance!

How about spilling some details as you journey through this? Of course, I mean "juicy" details! LOL

Seriously, Play, I wish you all the best in all of your endeavors! As well as everyone else on their own journey. We're a community of supporters, learners, and hopefully, friends! :)

[jeanne]

Playfulsub - that's wonderful news! I wish you both the best of luck. :)

[Playfulsub]

Thanks, y'all! I appreciate the warm words of support. And yes, I fully intend to share our journey (as much as he's comfortable with) as we move along.

I'm trying to convince him to register here and start posting!

[hispleasure]

Well,,,

My husband and I have been together almost 11 years, married 9. We "opened" our marriage about 2 years ago. It has been challenge, but the rewards are truly amazing.

I was single until I met him...I dated ALOT, had many many great experiences in my dating life (EVEN knew I was submissive, but never expored that....save that for another thread...) I dated multiple guys at a time, am I polymorous? I believe so, but that too is another thread.

My husband and I define our open marriage as having the ability to explore new relationships, emotionally and sexually. We are committed to each other and our marriage and life together. We've agreed that these outside relationships will not interfere with our life.

For me I come at it from a very practical perspective...

~~we are mammals; Why are we the ONLY species that are supposed to meet, mate and procreate for a lifetime toghether?

~~Statistically, 70% of the population Cheats (defined as having a sexual relationship OUTSIDE of the marriage/relationship, without the partner knowing) SO, why are so many people cheating? Are they all devious, hurtful, uncaring, selfish beings out for themselves? I DON"T believe so. I believe that we are truly a polymorous being, but society has conformed us to believe in a monogomous relationship. We are drilled to believe that there is a "one true love" for us all... All that said, I do believe in monogomous relationships work as well.

~~When we take the stigmatism out of "cheating" and recognize that open relationships are a healthy and viable alternative, we take sooo much stress out of our lives. My husband can never cheat on me..I will never cheat on him.

We both have a relationship outside our marriage. His friend S- is also married and has a family. My Sir is married and has a new baby. Both our partners also have open marriages.

We explored open marriage at my inserting the idea, it has taken a long time to get us to where we are, and still uncomfortable moment. But you know what..we talk, we are honest, we share our concerns and feelings and celebrate each others happiness. I went thru something with My Sir a few months ago that I wasn't comfortable with, and you know who I leaned on? Yes, My husband.

It truly is liberating and rewarding. My husband and I share so much more quality in our lives now! We don't fret the small stuff, we enjoy our time together and have so much more to talk about. Our lifestyle has enriched our marriage (and our sex life together ;) )

I'd be happy to share my journey in more detail if you have any questions. It has not been easy, and some days so fucking hard I wanted to just give it up and "be monogomous" but that is not who I am. The trials are so worth the tribulations! For any relationship to work, you have to be honest with yourself and true to who you are!

Please pm me if you want to know more, I am always happy to share in a lifestyle that I TRULY believe in!

submissively,
ra

[alpha_Straye]

Many have said that a D/s relationship is one of honesty and respect. If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?
...

to me, a betrayer will just as easily betray you. after all, if theyre doing so with their spouse, the person they have vowed to bind their life to.. then some bit on the side is up a creek at the first inconvenience. without Honour how could there be trust?

the only exception i can think of is if the person in question has talked to their spouse in all honesty and gotten their consent to find someone else, i assume for interests they cant live without but their spouse has no interest in. i have heard of that working out ok and crucially it's not a breach of Honour... if they really have discussed it.

id be darn sure it's true first though, if it were me. i think id want to talk to their spouse myself first to make sure it really is ok, what their take is on it, etc. and id have to be in some sort of special circumstances myself to risk it as it sounds like a less stable arrangement.

as for the online take on it i couldnt say as i dont do online and dont really see things that way. there is only one reality to me.

[Radiance]

When we date we try to find the right partner,whats the use of getting someone thats not into your kinks,I read alot of people online seem to be married for many years then start screaming vanilla, but wasnt the partner vanilla when you both met,were you both vanilla ?It seems the more chat rooms and online BDSM sites the more people are unhappy with there year marriages.WHY IS IT LIKE THIS?and if your not happy why prolong the marriage,to me it just makes everyone unhappy.I am not picking on anyone here its how i feel.I may chat online but ive been married 23 years,well living together and at first my hubby wasnt into all my kinks, but he was into some so i knew he would be the man for me.I didnt date a guy that wasnt into my kinks cos i knew our time together woudnt work.I still believe that the internet has a big sway in peoples thoughts now, because when i was young not many that i knew were into the stuff i was,and i found it hard to find others with my interest..As for cheating,i say Dont, truth is everything in life if you dont have that you have nothing...Radiance