good_girl
11-29-2007, 05:36 PM
I came across this in another forum I visit...I found it quite interesting but also upsetting. You see, two of the people who posted are co-workers of mine who I like, John is a strong christian and Bob (who is a very close friend of mine) is gay, [yes, I changed the names] The others are not people I know.
Just curious on how others feel about this.
A sense of self ..or a sense of belonging
2:36am Friday, Nov 23
So what is more important,
How others see you?
Or how you see and perceive yourself. Yet often times we are faced with a discrepancy between the two. People are very willing to sacrifice their core beliefs in the face of conformity, and as a result, they end up isolating themselves in a closed box. Conformity ultimately breeds normality, and creates abnormality. Most of the time, the norm is a positive addition to society, but there are times that "normal" can be detrimental. It's important to realize which norms are hurting us and move against it, just because something is normal doesn't necessary mean it is okay and that it is good for society as a whole. The first step in thinking outside the box is to be abnormal.
The "Norm Fallacy" is more common then we'd like to think, but if you can not think of any you may be guilty of it because it is so common, that you may over look it.
What is one thing that a lot of people do, and deemed acceptable in society, yet deep down inside you know something is not right. Think in terms of actions, rather than what people say since that truly reflects what person you are.
It's always nice to have both, a sense of self, and a sense of belonging
but this is for those times when the answer is not so clear and you have to choose one or the other.
It's late. I can't sleep.
7 comments
Report
John wrote
at 5:34pm on November 23rd, 2007
Whoa... Deep... and yet so true... we so often put our own feelings and thoughts to the side so that we are not excluded from those around us... the fear of being alone drives us to conformity... but the ones who step out and follow what they know is right and let their passion guide them are the ones who lead and change the world... for if we are afraid to stand up for what we believe in and end up just following the pack we will never grow as people... we need to encourage diversity and embrace those who challenge the status quo... we have become a selfish people so enthralled with our own little world and how we can best serve US... we need to be willing to learn, to grab life and live it, knowing that we may fail but that in the end we 'fought the good fight, we finished the race'... not to hide from adversity but face it head on... fight for what we believe in... for what is the point of life if you don't live it to the fullest? sorry... just being introspective...
Message
A***** (University of ) wrote
at 5:51pm on November 23rd, 2007
Things only seem abnormal because they deviate from what is expected and what is known. People often find themselves resisting to what they do not know, and thus resisting change, merely because it is the "big unknown" and the adversity of the matter would require people to step out of their box.
This box that everyone lives in is a cultural, societal, belief and value construct. Some people's boxes are bigger than others, but we cannot deny that we all have them. The boundaries of this box only keep us because we allow them to. These boundaries can also grow or receed as we develop as a person.
Clashes in society that lead to prejustice or racism are all because people are unable to step out of their own boundaries and allow themselves to be influenced by new ideas. It is often ignorance that breeds hate. A closed mind has a limited number of tools to view the world. The world can keep changing and challenging each individual, but it is up to their own merit to develop themselves.
M*** (University of) wrote
at 3:21am on November 24th, 2007
John:
I definately agree that one of the main reasons which drive people to commit the "norm fallacy" is the fear of being alone and isolated. Humans are social animals, and evolution/god/environment/genetics/etc. has made it an advantageous trait to possess. However, one can also argue that it is almost inevitable that this fallacy is a side-effect of being social beings and that the trade-off is worth it.
I agree that people definately have to start acting upon their beliefs, even if it could be wrong, and even if it risks becoming an "outsider", because in the end it will all be worth it.
Thanks for the feedback, this note was written to stimulate introspection and I appreciate it!
Message
M*** (University of ) wrote
at 3:41am on November 24th, 2007
A******:
It seems as though what you are implying is that people are afraid of change because the outcome is unknown. Another way to put it is that it is the questions that do not have answers that truly scare people away from moving against the norm. What we know, subsequently become what we expect, I agree.
You pretty much summed it up when you said that "It is often ignorance that breeds hate." If people are more informed and educated on the matters at hand then perhaps there would not be so much misunderstanding. This misunderstanding could be corrected not just between cultures, but also on a even smaller level such as family, friends, and aquaintences.
SO basically we have established that people are so scared to go against the norm because they are unsure of the outcome of "stepping out of the box". And based on John's feedback, one of the outcomes of moving against conformity is both isolation and rejection.
Thanks A******
Message
M*** (University of ) wrote
at 3:55am on November 24th, 2007
Racism is an interesting example primarily because there are two layers to it. On the surface everyone knows that it is unacceptable, and people would even disagree with racism, verbally that is. Yet simulatenously it is EVERYWHERE, through our actions. Don't believe me? It will happen even in your own backyard...or in this case, *******.
Message
Bob wrote
at 1:37am
i read this note and i just had to reply and keep it going!!
what you all are saying is basically that people will conform because it holds innate and inherent advantage to conform for acceptance from others and oneself but also for, love , friendship, and guidance!!! But, it is those people who won't step outside their "box" and outside of "the norm" that continue to judge people who have broadened their outlook on life and maybe have broken down the boundaries of thier own personal boxes alittle. When really it is the people who have changed the norm that everyone admires but yet people still stand back to critisize and judge them. It is those people who only conform, and place judgement on those who prevent everyone else from broadening their aspects on life because of that fear of judgment. And because of this fear of judgement more people won't deviate and will not lead to change and further acceptance.
Message
Bob wrote
at 1:38am
It is a vicious cycle that occurs everyday and people need to step back and realize that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and values and these people should remember that it is ONLY their beliefs and values and at no point should push them on anyone else or try to convince people otherwise because those people are the cultprits of the vicious circle. As for what John said, there really isn't isolation and rejection from moving against conformity because you are never alone in anything, you just havn't broadened your sights enough to realize it that there are many other people who think the same as you. Only until you step out into the unknown will you ever realize what it is all about and who is out there to back you up.
Just curious on how others feel about this.
A sense of self ..or a sense of belonging
2:36am Friday, Nov 23
So what is more important,
How others see you?
Or how you see and perceive yourself. Yet often times we are faced with a discrepancy between the two. People are very willing to sacrifice their core beliefs in the face of conformity, and as a result, they end up isolating themselves in a closed box. Conformity ultimately breeds normality, and creates abnormality. Most of the time, the norm is a positive addition to society, but there are times that "normal" can be detrimental. It's important to realize which norms are hurting us and move against it, just because something is normal doesn't necessary mean it is okay and that it is good for society as a whole. The first step in thinking outside the box is to be abnormal.
The "Norm Fallacy" is more common then we'd like to think, but if you can not think of any you may be guilty of it because it is so common, that you may over look it.
What is one thing that a lot of people do, and deemed acceptable in society, yet deep down inside you know something is not right. Think in terms of actions, rather than what people say since that truly reflects what person you are.
It's always nice to have both, a sense of self, and a sense of belonging
but this is for those times when the answer is not so clear and you have to choose one or the other.
It's late. I can't sleep.
7 comments
Report
John wrote
at 5:34pm on November 23rd, 2007
Whoa... Deep... and yet so true... we so often put our own feelings and thoughts to the side so that we are not excluded from those around us... the fear of being alone drives us to conformity... but the ones who step out and follow what they know is right and let their passion guide them are the ones who lead and change the world... for if we are afraid to stand up for what we believe in and end up just following the pack we will never grow as people... we need to encourage diversity and embrace those who challenge the status quo... we have become a selfish people so enthralled with our own little world and how we can best serve US... we need to be willing to learn, to grab life and live it, knowing that we may fail but that in the end we 'fought the good fight, we finished the race'... not to hide from adversity but face it head on... fight for what we believe in... for what is the point of life if you don't live it to the fullest? sorry... just being introspective...
Message
A***** (University of ) wrote
at 5:51pm on November 23rd, 2007
Things only seem abnormal because they deviate from what is expected and what is known. People often find themselves resisting to what they do not know, and thus resisting change, merely because it is the "big unknown" and the adversity of the matter would require people to step out of their box.
This box that everyone lives in is a cultural, societal, belief and value construct. Some people's boxes are bigger than others, but we cannot deny that we all have them. The boundaries of this box only keep us because we allow them to. These boundaries can also grow or receed as we develop as a person.
Clashes in society that lead to prejustice or racism are all because people are unable to step out of their own boundaries and allow themselves to be influenced by new ideas. It is often ignorance that breeds hate. A closed mind has a limited number of tools to view the world. The world can keep changing and challenging each individual, but it is up to their own merit to develop themselves.
M*** (University of) wrote
at 3:21am on November 24th, 2007
John:
I definately agree that one of the main reasons which drive people to commit the "norm fallacy" is the fear of being alone and isolated. Humans are social animals, and evolution/god/environment/genetics/etc. has made it an advantageous trait to possess. However, one can also argue that it is almost inevitable that this fallacy is a side-effect of being social beings and that the trade-off is worth it.
I agree that people definately have to start acting upon their beliefs, even if it could be wrong, and even if it risks becoming an "outsider", because in the end it will all be worth it.
Thanks for the feedback, this note was written to stimulate introspection and I appreciate it!
Message
M*** (University of ) wrote
at 3:41am on November 24th, 2007
A******:
It seems as though what you are implying is that people are afraid of change because the outcome is unknown. Another way to put it is that it is the questions that do not have answers that truly scare people away from moving against the norm. What we know, subsequently become what we expect, I agree.
You pretty much summed it up when you said that "It is often ignorance that breeds hate." If people are more informed and educated on the matters at hand then perhaps there would not be so much misunderstanding. This misunderstanding could be corrected not just between cultures, but also on a even smaller level such as family, friends, and aquaintences.
SO basically we have established that people are so scared to go against the norm because they are unsure of the outcome of "stepping out of the box". And based on John's feedback, one of the outcomes of moving against conformity is both isolation and rejection.
Thanks A******
Message
M*** (University of ) wrote
at 3:55am on November 24th, 2007
Racism is an interesting example primarily because there are two layers to it. On the surface everyone knows that it is unacceptable, and people would even disagree with racism, verbally that is. Yet simulatenously it is EVERYWHERE, through our actions. Don't believe me? It will happen even in your own backyard...or in this case, *******.
Message
Bob wrote
at 1:37am
i read this note and i just had to reply and keep it going!!
what you all are saying is basically that people will conform because it holds innate and inherent advantage to conform for acceptance from others and oneself but also for, love , friendship, and guidance!!! But, it is those people who won't step outside their "box" and outside of "the norm" that continue to judge people who have broadened their outlook on life and maybe have broken down the boundaries of thier own personal boxes alittle. When really it is the people who have changed the norm that everyone admires but yet people still stand back to critisize and judge them. It is those people who only conform, and place judgement on those who prevent everyone else from broadening their aspects on life because of that fear of judgment. And because of this fear of judgement more people won't deviate and will not lead to change and further acceptance.
Message
Bob wrote
at 1:38am
It is a vicious cycle that occurs everyday and people need to step back and realize that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and values and these people should remember that it is ONLY their beliefs and values and at no point should push them on anyone else or try to convince people otherwise because those people are the cultprits of the vicious circle. As for what John said, there really isn't isolation and rejection from moving against conformity because you are never alone in anything, you just havn't broadened your sights enough to realize it that there are many other people who think the same as you. Only until you step out into the unknown will you ever realize what it is all about and who is out there to back you up.