Can Religion and BDSM interests co-exist?

[bdsm_lover]

I am a christian with a great interest in BDSM and one part of my mind tell me that its alright for both to exist peacefully without conflicting each other. However, another part of my mind is screaming to me that I can only choose 1 of the two and they are like fire and water - one must perished for the other to survive. Can someone help me with this issue because this is driving me nuts.

[_ID_]

They can coexist if you are able to reconcile your interests with your values.

[ThisYouWillDo]

Reposted below

[TomOfSweden]

I am a christian with a great interest in BDSM and one part of my mind tell me that its alright for both to exist peacefully without conflicting each other. However, another part of my mind is screaming to me that I can only choose 1 of the two and they are like fire and water - one must perished for the other to survive. Can someone help me with this issue because this is driving me nuts.

If I were you I'd summon the power of interpretation. Too bad Rhabbi isn't here still, (I never thought I'd day that again). He had a bunch of links to BDSM for Christian sites who've taken lots of Bible quotes and with some creative interpretation figured out that this is what God wants. Nobody can prove they're wrong. At least not more wrong than any other interpretation.

And don't forget that God loves you no matter how much you fuck up. So you don't really need to worry, or care.

[ThisYouWillDo]

What has the one to do with the other? Nothing.

Did Jesus say BDSM was wrong? Not in the King James Bible, anyway.

Was that slut Mary Magdalene damned for all eternity? Can't answer that one, but I doubt Jesus would've approved if she was; and if you're a Christian, you have to believe he'd have had a say in her judgement.

TYWD

[icey]

yikes this can be a pretty explosive one! i once nearly caused a riot asking this lol.

its something ive never been able to get my head round,personally i dont see why you cant have both but i can see where you're coming from.
im not religious in the slightest and in fact im probably a little antagonistic against it so i wont pretend im knowledgeable about it.

people tend to forget that most laws originally came from the church (christian) and most bdsm activitys are illegal or at least in some parts of the world they are so not only are believers breaking the law albeit a ridiculous one they are going against their own bibles teachings when it comes to sexual issues and such.

often it appears to me that people tend to twist such things by taking what they want from their religion and discarding the rest and using the reasoning that god wishes them to be happy and there are no 'set' rules which in my humble opinion is just nothing more than convenient for them and it all seems kind of hypocritical to me.

but im hypocritical too because were i a believer im pretty sure i would say im going to be happy,enjoy the type of r/ship and sex that i enjoy and bollocks to the preachers and the bibles.

[ThisYouWillDo]

bollocks to the preachers and the bibles

I have absolutely no idea why you nearly caused a riot last time, icey .... LOL

[bdsm_lover]

TomOfSweden, care to tell me who is Rhabbi and the links for the sites? Thanks a lot for those that bother to read and reply. I appreciate all comments and feedbacks.

[MrDom]

yes there are christian BDSM group google it and they have good info for you.


MrDom

[Lion]

I ran across a few websites about this, (it was months ago, so I don't have the URLs anymore), but the basic message was from all the priests that stated their opinions, it was more or less acceptable unless there was major harm done to the body or against teachings of Christianity. For example some of them mentioned that sex with members of the same sex, or getting into a threesome is against the accepted practices of the religion.

I actually read up a lot about this regarding Islam and BDSM (and for that matter Judaism and BDSM). With a few restrictions, as long as both the male and female find this erotically stimulating, it's encouraged since it brings the couple more intimacy.

[Thorne]

If you wish to interpret the bible literally, then we are all made by God in His image. If God made us sexual beings it must be because he WANTED us to be sexual beings. Therefore, anything you do of a sexual nature, provided it's with the consent of all parties concerned, is OK with God. It's the preachers, priests, imams, rabbis and various other holier-than-thou's who would condemn you for it. God won't. He told me so.

Have I ever lied to you?

[icey]

actually id forgotton, i came across this some time ago which stunned me its so very bias and extremely ignorant, ok its ABDL the ministers discussing this time not bdsm but the opinions expressed are also expressed about all 'perverted lifestyles' such as bdsm homosexuality japanese hentai etc unfortunately the one referring specifically to bdsm has now been removed.
but if you read this you'll get the idea!

http://blogs4brownback.wordpress.com/2007/11/17/adult-babiesdiaper-lovers-alternate-lifestyle-or-mental-illness/

and this,it seems to me when you take the time and read it that they are scared of anything they dont know or understand and that if THEY dont like it then no-one else should!

heres the opinion on furries
http://blogs4brownback.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/furries-a-twisted-freakshow-of-utter-depravity/



he also includes goths in this sick mentally ill subculture.
i really hope you read it it was an eyeopener even for me lol

[DOMLORD]

if its that much of a problem you could do nun/priest scenes.

[mkemse]

I may be WAY off base, but issue I have is that with Society the Way it is today, it appears to me, that when peole say "Chrisitan" they are reffering to God Fearing Bible Thumping Individuals or Groups
I seem no reason why a Person can not be into BDSM and be Chrisitian, Any more the being into BDSM and Being Jewish, Or Hindu ect
I believe Society has made people feel and believe that if you are Chrisitan, you only believe in Family Values, No Gay Marriage ect ect, People need to follow thier own persona convictions in theire lives and if they are Comfortable with their BDSM lifesyle so be it, I do not believe Churches, Synogouges ect have the right to interfere with a person's persona life and beliefs outside the Church or Temple
If they do, then it may be that they are letting their indivdual religious believes control their daily life style, i know a number of Roamn Cathlics, that go regularly to Church, teach the various aspects of the Bible, but they also believe that Abortion is a perosnal sisue betwene Husband, Wife and Docotor, and that if 2 peple sincernely love each other they should be allowed to Marry be it same sex or not, but they also believe in the Church, this may sound hypocritical, but some religions to me seem to want to contro lever aspect of their follwewrs life making them almost like puppets for lack of a better way to phrade it and no insult is intend by that, follow your heart and YOUR beliefes and also believe in the Higher Power you do, but try not to mix the 2 you can't

[TomOfSweden]

If you wish to interpret the bible literally, then we are all made by God in His image. If God made us sexual beings it must be because he WANTED us to be sexual beings. Therefore, anything you do of a sexual nature, provided it's with the consent of all parties concerned, is OK with God. It's the preachers, priests, imams, rabbis and various other holier-than-thou's who would condemn you for it. God won't. He told me so.

Have I ever lied to you?

An important philosophical feature of Christianity is that we have free will. So this actually works for Christianity. It just doesn't work in combination with modern science, because according to science, our sexual urges are very much outside the scope of our free will. This is a very deep and unsolvable dilemma for Christianity. A common solution is to take the middle ground and compromise, but then we both have free will and don't. Which is logically false. But anyhoo...

[Alex Bragi]

Hi bdsm_lover, a really nice Christian gentleman, ManofFaith, posted here for a little while. He had or maybe even still does have the same feelings as you. He describes himself as a "30-year old caucasian male trying to find residence in a BDSM lifestyle involving Christianity ". I see from his profile he still pops in for a look from time to time, so why not consider contacting him? *ss*

[Torq]

Yup

[annie]

I am a christian with a great interest in BDSM and one part of my mind tell me that its alright for both to exist peacefully without conflicting each other. However, another part of my mind is screaming to me that I can only choose 1 of the two and they are like fire and water - one must perished for the other to survive. Can someone help me with this issue because this is driving me nuts.

Just my two cents worth, I am a Christian, and look at it very simply in relation to three main verses in Ephesians. Primarily 5:22, 5:24 & 5:25.


Wives, [be subject] to your own husbands, as to the Lord... But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives [ought to be] to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her.

There is also a set of verses in Colossians and l Peter which have the same meaning.

That being said that is how I interrupt the script (and no I'm not going to argue my interpretation with anyone... it is mine, period) so for me at least it is easy to reconcile BDSM and my submission with my Christian faith... or at least should be easy if the world were a simple predefined place! :p

What hangs me up is more the fact that I didn't marry someone who is able to be "head of his household." Therefore, hard for me to submit to someone incapable (or unwilling) to be in that position, which means neither of us are then living based on my interruption.

And I don't think it is so much reconciling BDSM and religion as it is reconciling some aspects of BDSM with my belief. Which some have stated before. Anal sex/sodomy is a prime example and an issue I struggle with regularly. My interpretation doesn't allow for it, in any form, but my carnal nature loves, enjoys and in some ways thrives on it. So the choice is mine... do I live in "sin" for my pleasure or not? Those issues... you have to decide for yourself how to handle, your interpretation of the religious text as to if it is a sin and then if it is are you are willing to live in "sin" for your primal enjoyment? Somethings can't be reconciled and bottom line are what they are. It then becomes your choice to determine how they are going to fit (or not) into your life style.

Side Note/Rant: I personally think that one has to be careful though after deciding what is a "sin" in their world. Sin is sin and preaching to someone about their "sin" while ignoring/reframing your "sin" so it is acceptable to you is hypocritical and honestly... those are the christains (little c on purpose) who shouldn't be preaching to anyone! I certainly can't cast the first stone... just wish more people would remember that when they decide to "save" those who make other life choices.

[Isabella King]

My belief is that religion is man made and causes far more trouble throughout the world than BDSM ever could.

Spookily, I had just come online to post something, which on reflection, might be better off being added to this discussion.

Humans seem to crave structures in their life and having a mystic higher being to look up to and live according to his rules, works well for some. However, my god is my husband. In effect, I have converted to his faith. I have given up my life to worship at his alter and he in turn has led me on an incredible spiritual journey to submission.

Don't you think that the route to submission resembles the path which people of religion take to be nearer to and better understand their God?
The strict routines, the denial of simple pleasures, the pain and the hardship –these practises are not dissimilar to the spiritual journeys that other cultures and religions often glorify.

After my marriage, my husband asked me to get rid of all my possessions – clothes, books, PC, make up, photos – all the things I’d collected over my life and thought of as being an important part of who I was. I really didn’t want to lose them but I wanted to lose him even less, so I did it. He spent almost an entire day ritually emptying everything I possessed onto a bonfire. He even cut up my passport and driving licence (I have a new licence now) and cut my hair short, so that I was left standing naked and bereft in front of him – the few possessions and items of clothing he’d allowed me to keep, barely filling a packing case.

Since that day he has tutored and nurtured me, from the arrogant twenty year old, know it all that I was, into the humble, giving (if a little feisty at times) person I am now. It has been a spiritual journey of personal growth that happens to have sexual gratification at its core. Is that so bad?

[mkemse]

I Agree 100% with what IDCrewDawg said

[GearJammer]

Just my two cents worth, I am a Christian, and look at it very simply in relation to three main verses in Ephesians. Primarily 5:22, 5:24 & 5:25.



There is also a set of verses in Colossians and l Peter which have the same meaning.

That being said that is how I interrupt the script (and no I'm not going to argue my interpretation with anyone... it is mine, period) so for me at least it is easy to reconcile BDSM and my submission with my Christian faith... or at least should be easy if the world were a simple predefined place! :p

What hangs me up is more the fact that I didn't marry someone who is able to be "head of his household." Therefore, hard for me to submit to someone incapable (or unwilling) to be in that position, which means neither of us are then living based on my interruption.

And I don't think it is so much reconciling BDSM and religion as it is reconciling some aspects of BDSM with my belief. Which some have stated before. Anal sex/sodomy is a prime example and an issue I struggle with regularly. My interpretation doesn't allow for it, in any form, but my carnal nature loves, enjoys and in some ways thrives on it. So the choice is mine... do I live in "sin" for my pleasure or not? Those issues... you have to decide for yourself how to handle, your interpretation of the religious text as to if it is a sin and then if it is are you are willing to live in "sin" for your primal enjoyment? Somethings can't be reconciled and bottom line are what they are. It then becomes your choice to determine how they are going to fit (or not) into your life style.

Side Note/Rant: I personally think that one has to be careful though after deciding what is a "sin" in their world. Sin is sin and preaching to someone about their "sin" while ignoring/reframing your "sin" so it is acceptable to you is hypocritical and honestly... those are the christains (little c on purpose) who shouldn't be preaching to anyone! I certainly can't cast the first stone... just wish more people would remember that when they decide to "save" those who make other life choices.

Well said. The few minor differences I have with it aren't worth mentioning more than this sentence.

Annie, I suspect I come from a similar place as you, speaking in terms of "place" regarding beliefs. You hold fast to what you believe, be honestly willing, and the rest is between him and God.

As to the one issue you say you struggle with, I suggest reading Heb 13:4, and realizing that the original Greek means "honorable in all" means honorable in all things or aspects or activities. After that, it's between you and God.

All the best.

Gear

[TomOfSweden]

Don't forget Satanism people. I've only read the Satanic Bible once as a teenager, but I don't recall it had anything against naughty sex. Quite the contrary.

[annie]

Well said. The few minor differences I have with it aren't worth mentioning more than this sentence.

Annie, I suspect I come from a similar place as you, speaking in terms of "place" regarding beliefs. You hold fast to what you believe, be honestly willing, and the rest is between him and God.

As to the one issue you say you struggle with, I suggest reading Heb 13:4, and realizing that the original Greek means "honorable in all" means honorable in all things or aspects or activities. After that, it's between you and God.

All the best.

Gear

Thanks Gear... I'll take a look at it!

[silver9]

I think this can be a really touchy subject, but I really can't think of any specific teachings in the Bible that are about it. It's like the debates over abortion and cloning and such as there's nothing said about it much I suppose, and it's a new idea that an old book has to adapt to.

However, as Gear says, I really think that it's between you and God; though I can't think of any reason why the two can't live together :)

[Alex Bragi]

Anal sex/sodomy is a prime example and an issue I struggle with regularly. My interpretation doesn't allow for it, in any form, but my carnal nature loves, enjoys and in some ways thrives on it. So the choice is mine... do I live in "sin" for my pleasure or not? Those issues... you have to decide for yourself how to handle, your interpretation of the religious text as to if it is a sin and then if it is are you are willing to live in "sin" for your primal enjoyment? Somethings can't be reconciled and bottom line are what they are. It then becomes your choice to determine how they are going to fit (or not) into your life style.

The the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a part of the Old Testament--a history of Jewish people and therefor not Gospel. Also I think most Christians see the Bible more as guide to a good life since it was written for the people of the time, and times change. Annie, if you were to follow it to the letter, you'd have a restricted diet; you wouldn't be allowed to cut your hair, and every month you'd have to go away until you were 'clean' again!

Interestingly, some researcher now believe that those two cities were most certainly destroyed, but it was a naturally occurring phenomenon in the area--gases building up in the rock formations until they exploded. So, were they really so sinful after all? Or, were they just a bunch of people having a good time in the wrong place?


... It's like the debates over abortion and cloning and such as there's nothing said about it much I suppose, and it's a new idea that an old book has to adapt to.

However, as Gear says, I really think that it's between you and God; though I can't think of any reason why the two can't live together :)

Yes, totally! :)

[TomOfSweden]

The the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a part of the Old Testament--a history of Jewish people and therefor not Gospel. Also I think most Christians see the Bible more as guide to a good life since it was written for the people of the time, and times change. Annie, if you were to follow it to the letter, you'd have a restricted diet; you wouldn't be allowed to cut your hair, and every month you'd have to go away until you were 'clean' again!


According to the "2001 religious survey" by Barry Kosmin, (the biggest survey on US religious faith ever done) this is the faith of most US Christians. But there's the great Steven Weinberg quote "If we use our own moral judgement on which parts of the Bible to follow, aren't we just using our own moral judgement? What do we need the Bible for?" So I'm going to argue that the most people who call themselves Christian aren't really Christian. They've got a wide variety of various faiths we haven't given names to. But they like to share the title Christian, because it gives them the, (false) sense of having something in common.

edit: my point is that if you're not following the Bible literally you can combine Christianity with any activity no matter how bizarre. If you are following the Bible literally you immediately run into the problem of that it isn't compatible with modern moral values. So you'd be arrested if you tried.



Interestingly, some researcher now believe that those two cities were most certainly destroyed, but it was a naturally occurring phenomenon in the area--gases building up in the rock formations until they exploded. So, were they really so sinful after all? Or, were they just a bunch of people having a good time in the wrong place?



This is quite central to Christian beliefs. It's the belief that God works in secret by sneaking around doing good, and trying to fool people into that he doesn't exist...to test our faith. Doing some act miraculous act that would break the laws of nature and prove his existence, would be way to easy. That would convert every human soul in a second. God wouldn't want that would he? It would make everything so boring and predictable. But hey, wait a minute, he's omnipotent.... hm.... yeah.... why is he so unwilling to convert people?

[Thorne]

Interestingly, some researcher now believe that those two cities were most certainly destroyed, but it was a naturally occurring phenomenon in the area--gases building up in the rock formations until they exploded. So, were they really so sinful after all? Or, were they just a bunch of people having a good time in the wrong place?

It's more likely that they were just normal people going about their normal business who were struck by catastrophe. Just like the victims of Katrina or the Indian Ocean tsunami, they didn't do anything to precipitate the disaster, just happened to be living in the wrong place. The stories of their sinful ways were probably made up later as morality lessons. And the story of Lot's wife was an attempt to explain the weird salt formations around the Dead Sea.

[donriser]

Hoping it's alright to join the conversation here. I've been a member of the Library here for several months, but am mostly active at the Academy. One assignment I was given at the Academy a few months back was to write about my views of BDSM and Christianity. It's also an area that I wrestle with wanting to make sure that my desires and actions also stay in line with my faith and values. I spent some amount of time really pondering this and doing a lot of reading and I wrote the following essay. I'll share it here and hope it adds a bit to the dialogue. It mostly reflects where I'm at in my own exploration of all this. Thanks for letting me share and for bringing up such a great topic.




Christianity and BDSM

This has been a very challenging essay to put together. Challenging because there are so many viewpoints and many seem so emotionally charged. Because of that I felt like I wanted to approach this as an academic endeavor, a research project of sorts. And to some extent that is what it has been. I only wish I had more time to devote to it. Because I see so much emotion in what I read online, I wanted to be very careful about what I wrote so as to have some real grounding, some intelligent discourse presented in a manner that doesn't have to lead to frustration for whoever might read it. I've felt a lot of pressure within me. Kind of like that of a minority person who doesn't want every act or thought to have to stand as representative of his race, nor be judged/stereotyped as good/bad by the actions of some other member of his race. So these were my struggles in approaching this. I haven't done anything near an acceptable or complete job of presenting anything here, but I've done what I can with the time I have available.

Christianity and BDSM, two cultures that raise all manner of stereotypic beliefs and opinions in nearly any group in which the subjects are raised; however, when combined, at best confusion sets in at how they might coincide, and at worst people become rather aggressive on both sides considering the two to be adversarial. It seems a small minority of people who do not see necessary conflict between the two cultures. I'm a part of that minority.

I've done a lot of reading in considering this topic, most of which I did not agree with on either side. I'm thankful to know there are Christians involved in this lifestyle because when I marry, I want to marry someone of like faith, but it seems to me that the websites aimed at discussing how Christianity and BDSM can coexist do so from a defensive posture and try to prove their convictions, sometimes taking scriptures out of context and using overly simplistic interpretations. I hesitate in this criticism thinking could I really do better, but it's the wrong question. I don't need to be defensive. I do need to wrestle with this question of my faith and my desires for this lifestyle to the same degree as I do other areas of my life, but it really doesn't rise to some higher position simply because sex is a supercharged topic in our culture.

Likewise, I've read many criticisms of Christian BDSM websites by people who are disenfranchised by the church and who seem very angry at religion in general. Their approach has also seemed discouraging to me in that they discount what is presented not with sound argument, but with mocking and degradation. The irony in this is that they seem to mock and criticize because they feel or have felt mocked and criticized. I want to read and hear multiple opinions and discussion from different viewpoints, but that wasn't to be found, at least not in my research. So I'm kind of hanging out here on my own in what I write to some extent. And I don't want to get in the middle of some pointless debate or be found offensive. So here's my best attempt.

Dominance and Submission:

In Bible times, slaves were a part of the culture of the day. We, most fortunately, don't have slavery in our Western culture in that traditional sense (except in the dark underground), nor does slavery or submission in BDSM resemble the old traditions of forced slavery. What I see in BDSM is closer to the idea of a bondservant, a slave who enters into slavery by choice for some type of trade. We have this in our common culture every time we use a credit card or take out a loan. We daily make choices about what or who we will be enslaved by: the internet, television, the race to have the most toys, money, bitterness, pleasure, any host of daily behaviors and habits that dictate how we live. We all live in relationship to others that involves varying levels of dominance and submission. These are simple facts.

BDSM relationships seem to me to be variations on these themes. Since I'm learning from a perspective of submission, what I see is that in my daily life I play many roles, most of which involve dominance. In my personal, intimate, sexual life I prefer submission. There are aspects of my dominant roles in which I'm appreciative to have the role that I do and thankful that I rose to the challenge of using my skills and talents in a manner that contributes to life, but my most comfortable role, the place I feel safest and most "in my skin" is in submission. Choosing to submit to another does not violate any scriptural precept that I can see. However, I do like using scripture as a guide for how to respond to people in whatever role I happen to be in – and the bottom line for that is to love, love in a manner that shows all who see it the love Christ has for them. (If this happened more often and consistently, there probably wouldn't be as many people so angry at Christianity. Unfortunately, Christians are also extremely fallible and damaged people and the church frequently does not reflect the image of Christ.) Scripture is ripe with information about how slaves were expected to respond to their masters and how masters were to care for their slaves. It teaches how to respect authority and give deference to those in respected positions. It sets the clear example of what submission is. So much so that as I kneel or meditate on some aspect of my submission in this lifestyle, I frequently feel called to demonstrate such submission to my Father above – the feelings and behaviors being so very familiar.

Bondage and Discipline:

I feel uncertain as to how to start here, so like much of writing, I simply need to begin doing it. Discipline is clearly addressed in the Bible, probably more so there than about anywhere. I see discipline as having two definitions: that of living a disciplined life and the term discipline as equivalent to punishment. I see no conflict regarding a disciplined lifestyle in BDSM and that found in the scripture. Obviously some of the specifics can vary. If, for example, a dominant was training a submissive to be disciplined in acting in a manner that was contrary to principles in scripture, this would be problematic. However, it is fully reasonable to live within scriptural precepts and have a disciplined life within a D/s relationship – this is part of what is involved in communication and consent. I'm privileged to be gaining all manner of discipline while at the Academy and I believe this discipline is also pleasing to my Ultimate Master. Likewise, discipline in the sense of punishment can also be clearly supported in scripture if one felt the need to do so. However, what is more important to me is that it is not declared as something that must be done/not done in a specific way. The key to me is that there is freedom to practice discipline and punishment. Likewise, that freedom extends to bondage. I consider it no different than other types of agreed upon forms of interaction. I don't feel a need to try to defend it. What is more important to me is recognizing that I don't see anything in scripture that prohibits it.


Sadism and Masochism

This too is difficult for me to address. Partially because I don't understand the concepts, and part because I do not see these issues addressed in scripture. As I understand it in BDSM, sadism refers to being sexually gratified through infliction of pain on another, while masochism being sexually gratified in having pain inflicted on oneself. These can be aspects of dominance and submission and utilized in discipline. Again, I think this is an area that reflects back to the concepts of discipline in one regard, and to learning and sources of pleasure in another. One could certainly point out many areas in scripture that relate to beating one's body, or using the rod in discipline, but I don't believe they necessarily speak to this area of BDSM. I do see the connection of the body's response to pain (whether being the recipient or the issuer of that pain), the changes in levels of endorphins and other chemicals in the brain including serotonin and epinephrine, and one's pleasurable response to pain. Certainly this can lead to a desire for more of those typically pleasing chemicals. For me it's even more than that. It's comfortable to me because it's what I learned. While I don't condone the manner in which I was disciplined growing up, I do see the benefit in it as an adult. For example, my mother raged out of control, she was unpredictable and truly sadistic in some of the ways she punished. BDSM to some degree has led to some healing for me because it is controlled, it is not used in anger or rage, it has some measure of predictability in that it is fully consensual, and though it may include sadism, it isn't evil sadism. Of course I speak of this in BDSM as I understand it and recognize that people have different definitions of how this is practiced (that's the scary part!). I think of my desires in all of this as a sort of taste preference that is partially influenced by my personality and likely heavily influenced by learning through life experiences, but isn't this how all our tastes are developed? For example, if I grew up in Germany, I might have a taste for beer and sauerkraut, but let me assure you that though I have German blood coursing through my veins, I like neither. I didn't grow up developing that taste. My taste in submission in BDSM is no more or less an appropriate appetite than wife who only has sex missionary style when her husband desires, the priest who has committed him/herself to celibacy, or the teenage boy who wakes in the morning after his first wet dream. It is shaped by nature and learning.

So what does that have to do with my Christian faith you might ask? Well I believe that God is a loving father, that he mourns with me about the pain I suffered growing up, but that he also celebrates with me at the healing I find. It's not the conventional method, but it goes so much deeper than conventions have ever been able to reach (and I have used many conventions – believe me.) Not only this, but I believe I have a freedom within boundaries to explore and play and figure things out. If pleasure in pain is a part of that discovery and healing, if it's a part of the way I am able to find deeper levels of sexual gratification, than within some limits I have the freedom to do so. For me the bottom line is that I have freedom to explore and play, but I need to be careful to not engage in any acts that go against what has been laid out in scripture. Not because I have some fear of being cast into hell or that God will reject me, but because I really believe that what is written in scripture is inspired by God and meant for my good, not as some arbitrary measure of control. I believe it comes from the love of a Father and when I think through different scenarios I can see why those safety markers are there.

Other Pieces/Specifics:

Some of those markers seem clear to me, but some get a little fuzzy too. I know clearly that I will not have sex before or outside of marriage. This is a clear marker for me. What is less clear is what does sex equal. I have no desire to reprise the Clinton era debate, but it is an area I will struggle with, an area that could be argued in many a direction. I will have to wrestle with this because I don't want to learn the boundary by having crossed over it. But this struggle is not unique to me and I likely will fall over it a few times as I figure it out. Within marriage, I see an open playing field between husband and wife. While I do believe in monogamy as far as sexual intercourse is concerned, I could easily see myself still playing and learning at the Academy when I'm married and hope my husband might want to play too, or attending munches together or ??? The limits will be something we would have to discuss together. Arguments could be made for having multiple mates in a committed marriage, but this doesn't set peacefully within me at this time in this culture. I may think differently at some point in time, but based on what knowledge I have now, that type of relationship does not appeal to me. And yet I have to wrestle with that to some degree because the very people I submit to or play online with are frequently married. Yet I'm not having sex with those people, it's a different type of relationship. But I also wouldn't want to, even at this level, come between a husband and wife or be any part of potential marital discord. That makes this a tenuous line to walk, and one I'm still figuring out where I stand (as I'm certain my ambivalence is quite obvious). This online community affords some structure and, therefore, security to fall back on, but I'm well aware of how deep emotions can be stirred here and how difficult it can be to put the river back in its bounds.

Masturbation and self-sex play have been debated probably since the first time someone learned where their clit or penis was and how good it felt. I've masturbated since I was a very young child, for as long as I have memory to be honest. I've done so by myself and with others as a child. I was hooked, I didn't understand all the sensations, but I knew how good they felt. I played in ways that would be considered kinky by adult standards, but I was simply a child explorer. But however I learned it, I was sure what I was doing was bad, that I was bad for doing it. Though I've been a good girl my whole life, this was one area I just kept right on playing even though I felt extreme guilt.

Well I'm thankful for my curious mind and my tendencies to research until I have a satisfactory conclusion (which I almost never get to) because I was able to evaluate what I thought and knew of masturbation as an adult and come to some very different conclusions. I have read the Christian books that espouse and despise masturbation, and I've sought the counsel of Biblical scholars about the subject. The Bible really is silent on this issue. It is clear about guarding your mind and your heart and how to do so, but it says nothing about whether or not you should or shouldn't sexually pleasure yourself. So again in this area I refer to how God created us and the vast freedom he gave to us. He gave us wonderful erogenous zones all over our bodies, extra sensitive places fully within our reach, creative minds to know how to use them. Not only that, but sex and our sexuality are a gift directly from him. They are a part of the very expression of himself as he created us in his image. If you want to read some truly erotic literature, read the Song of Solomon, it doesn't get much better than that. Self-sex play also allows me to explore my desires before marriage, to know myself more intimately, to be able to communicate those desires to the one/s I love, and to assume some responsibility for meeting my own needs rather than being fully dependent on another. Not only that, but it helps me stay disciplined in keeping with my values and waiting for marriage because I'm a woman with needs and my desires are strong.

How do I deal with the specifics that are not specifically addressed in scripture? The best way I know how - I have to listen to my conscience. In Romans 14, Paul talks to this issue saying that if your conscience convicts you and you continue on anyway, then you have done wrong. This wasn't a universal about all behaviors, but in regard to those not clearly defined or by which arguments could be made in multiple directions. This can be challenging in that one clear principle of human functioning is that we are rationalizing creatures, though not always rational. We can make an argument to approve of about anything we might desire to do. I do believe there is objective truth in the universe, and some of that is accessible, but mostly we have to just try to come as close to truth as possible and often that proximity is likely a pale representation of all that God is and desires for us. What I have written here and what I desire to practice in my faith and as a submissive are also most certainly pale representations, but they are what I have and understand at this point in time.

[caged]

There's nothing specific in the Bible about bdsm, certainly. It seems to me that a married couple doing a bit of tying one another up couldn't particularly be seen as 'un-Christian'. On the other hand, I guess a huge number of activities that are very common in our lifestyle - anal sex, watersports, general humiliation and degradation, third party involvement, viewing porn (if only for new ideas) - would be seen as wrong by the majority of Christians.

I was once a young evangelical Christian doing full-time volunteer church and evangelism work, while agonising over my frequent purchases of mail-order bondage magazines (which I could barely afford, if only we'd had the internet back then...)

Er.. I guess my points if I have any, are that I figure a circumscribed, low-key bdsm life - within marriage of course - must be compatible with Christianity. And that I'm glad I'm not a Christian any more.

[mkemse]

yes it can, those who follow the teachings of the bible to the letter are not going to vists a site like this, if you mind body and sole believe you can, the you can go with your heart and mind

[alpha_Straye]

it does seem to me sometimes like people (especially Christians, with all due respect) feel bad about their BDSM/sexual interests mostly because they're having so much fun with it. kind of "if its this great it must be bad" *smile*.

which isnt said to ridicule.. quite the contrary, i feel bad for them feeling so conflicted. from what i can see, the difficulty seems to be more cultural than religious. the culture of a given religious group changes over time and what they accept as sinful or not changes too.. because it's a reflection of the time and people, not divinity or even religion- the religious culture is not the religion itself. confusing the two really knots people up inside and i think that's a shame.

it strikes me that alot of the conflict would be more about fitting in with the group and being accepted by them. but pleasing co-religionists is about social comfort rather than ethics, morality, or religion i think.

a lame example is clothing. my great grandmother had a fit when my grandmother started wearing a bra instead of a corset. it was said to be sinful to wear a garment specifically for holding up and thrusting forward the breasts. it was enticing and sexual. now most women wear a bra without thinking about it and the corset is the sexual and enflaming article.

which is sinful? was either ever sinful? whats the difference? only time and social context as far as i can see.

it gets harder for people to sort it out when sexuality gets more directly involved because they like it so much and i think feel guilt for their pleasure... but it's the same general idea.

i think the solution for someone in this situation may lay in discovering what their religion really says (not what people say it means at this changable moment in time) and to evaluate their actions honestly from there... so that they can feel right with themselves based in the fact of their chosen religion. after all, all the religions ive heard of are about worshiping their Deity, not the locals *smile*

i hope this made sense and maybe helps *smile*

[jan]

it does seem to me sometimes like people (especially Christians, with all due respect) feel bad about their BDSM/sexual interests mostly because they're having so much fun with it. kind of "if its this great it must be bad" *smile*.

which isnt said to ridicule.. quite the contrary, i feel bad for them feeling so conflicted.

I think you're quite right, alpha.
For me, my Catholicism was the beginning and inspiration for my masochism, and the conflict (and the embarrassment) is cultural. I mean, as a girl I read about St. Agatha and St. Barbara. When the words in The Lives of the Saints said that "Agatha smiled when the hot pincers were brought to her breast", I was forever impressed that she enjoyed it. Soon I knew that I would too.

It's hard for me to see a conflict between my religion and my masochism in the face of that.

[ickleimi]

Thanks to whoever suggested looking it up on google. Really helped!

[fetishdj]

Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed for 'Sodomy' as many beleive but for being inhospitable to strangers. At least in the version I read. I suspect the term 'sodomy' was not related to this city until much later. Like the Sin of Onan (which was refusing to follow Jewish law and impregnate his widowed sister in law NOT, as usually stated, masturbation or homosexuality) it is one of these interpretations which some Christians use to justify a lot of things which are not actually stated in the Bible.

The aforementioned passages about wives and husbands do indeed match some BDSM practise (Peter, it seemed, was very big on women obeying but then I suspect he was 'playing to the crowd' - the crowd being Roman and Greek and therefore not big on women's rights) but I am not sure if it is possible to reconcile FemDom practises.

As for other Christian ideas not mentioned in the Bible... well, for many years there was a group of Catholics in Spain who were big on bondage and sadomasochism though I am not sure many of the people who suffered at their hands were actually masochists, just heretics who got on the wrong side of Torquemada. Though their justification of 'torture purifying the soul' is somewhat suspect in a modern Christian doctrine...

[Thorne]

Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed for 'Sodomy' as many beleive but for being inhospitable to strangers. At least in the version I read. I suspect the term 'sodomy' was not related to this city until much later. Like the Sin of Onan (which was refusing to follow Jewish law and impregnate his widowed sister in law NOT, as usually stated, masturbation or homosexuality) it is one of these interpretations which some Christians use to justify a lot of things which are not actually stated in the Bible.
I've noticed that quite a few Christians (and Muslims, with the Quran) tend to interpret scripture in the manner which most suits their own beliefs. Any other interpretations are, by their definition, heresy. Handy little philosophy, that.





As for other Christian ideas not mentioned in the Bible... well, for many years there was a group of Catholics in Spain who were big on bondage and sadomasochism though I am not sure many of the people who suffered at their hands were actually masochists, just heretics who got on the wrong side of Torquemada. Though their justification of 'torture purifying the soul' is somewhat suspect in a modern Christian doctrine...
The Inquisition wasn't limited to Spain. It was just about everywhere the Church was. The Spanish version was just the most notorious. The purging of witches, throughout Europe and America, was a part of that. And in some cultures those kinds of things still go on, though no longer condoned by the Church.

[SilvieA]

I'm a Christian and a sub. I don't see the conflict. Please enlighten me, and if you want to chat I'd be happy to help you figure things out.

Silvie