What makes you submissive?

[gemmy]

As a side note from another thread, i've noticed subs have different things in their make up that are common and i wondered if there are some things that make or 'set' our submissiveness as we go through this world.

myself, i've known my whole life (and before i knew what it was called), i've had sexual outdoor bondage fantasies since i was a very young gurl (8 at least).

also, when i was five i was put with a horrible family that abused me constantly in all the forms, beatings, emotional degradation, sexual abuse when i got older - i left when i was 13 and moved around living in the streets for a few years before getting back on track and finishing school - in that time i'd been raped 3 times

i would follow this cycle of abuse for most of my years, picking abusing aggressors over confident assertives - i now know the difference and it's been 10 yrs since a man has put me in the hospital

so, although i know i was submissive before all the abuse, i wonder if it hasn't had a hand in further 'setting' the seed of my submission, firmly planting it there?

i know that the abuse didn't help my judgement, and in the past i was giving into an unhealthy submission of their deciding as opposed to a healthy submission of my choosing

now, no one gets to take advantage of me since breaking that cycle for good but i wonder if it's had a firm hand and if others think things like this has in their submissiveness as well?

*disclaimer* i'm not trying to put it all in one 'box', just wondering if we share any commonalities period *smiles*

[Warbaby1943]

I can't speak for them but from what I have read here and at other forums of similar types many subs seem to have a background much like yours. It will be interesting to follow this thread to see what is said. Thanks for starting it.

[Isabella King]

It really worries me that so many subs seem to have suffered abuse. It's not a prerequisite of the job title - although I can understand how young girls may get sucked into this kind of behaviour. But, with all respect for the pain you've been through, Sammi, I want to make a point of saying that no man has ever hit me without my permission.

Yep, I've always known - it's definitely in the blood - but I haven't got the first clue why :confused: not that it matters. :)

I didn't become whole until I met my husband. I needed him as much as he needed me. The fact that he has control of my life makes me stronger.

[Polaris]

Actually...I've been wondering the same thing, but was too shy to ask. So double thanks for posting this. :)

I also always knew, way before there was a name for it. I, too, have an abusive background -- albeit not sexual, and not excessively physical. When I broke the cycle...or at least finally began to stand on my feet, this really bothered me for a while. Firstly, there is this cliché that submissive women are submissive due to some abuse-trauma, which I personally find somewhat ridiculous...and I certainly didn't want to be part of this cliché. And secondly, it somehow shattered everything I thought to be true about myself. Being submissive and being abused are two entirely different things, though. It's hard to explain, but it feels completely different. One is healthy and one is destructive. Argh, I'm not good at that.

That aside, I think it contributed to the way I'm wired. If you live a major part of your life learning that you are never good enough (and never can be) and are forced to play a game where you can't win and where the rules are constantly changing...well, it's awesome to be able to please somebody entirely, to be appreciated and valued, and to play by rules that do not only apply to both parties, but which are also kept and respected.

Just my thoughts on the topic. I'll follow this thread with curiosity, with hopes for some more insight. :)

[Sir_Russell]

It is a shame but many submissive have a background of abuse both sexual and emotional. I think that is what makes them submissives the need a Dom that can give them love, protection and some stability.

[cadence]

I honestly don't believe there is a specific connection between being submissive and living a prior abusive past. Then again I am far too lazy to look up any relavant information that may substantiate my statement.

I would presume that we are born with submissive traits and maybe our environment helps to grow or hinder that side of ourselves.

I have never been physically nor emotionally abused. Well, if you talk to others, they would say that my parents were a bit too heavy with the discipline, but I have never been affected by that overall.

I had spoken to another submissive once about the similar behavioural traits we shared as young childeren. We both used to bang our heads against the wall or the floor when we were upset. However she is more into pain, I am into humiliation. The similarities stopped there.

I could say that I have had some kinky fantasies at a very young age, but I really didn't figure out my submissive side until much later in life. When I realized that I would rather put someone else's wants and needs before my own. That it makes me happier to please and be pleasing.

I sometimes dislike connecting anything sexual with my submissive side, only because I suffer from OCD, and when I was younger, I used masturbation as a way of coping with the triggers I had.

So anytime I am stressed or if I am triggered, I will use sex as a way to cope.
I find it more difficult to come to terms with sex and submission at the same time.

[sisterhoney61 {RW}]

I agree with cadence. I have been submissive all my life and have had submissive sexual fantasies as early as I can remember, ones that involve kidnapping, rape, being held against my will, being forced to surrender/submit, etc. Yet, I was not physically or sexually abused while growing up. I didn't suffer abuse until I was in my first marriage, which was vanilla. My ex was the one who subjected me to emotional, verbal and physical abuse. But none of that was a turn on for me and none of it made me more submissive.
I have never been one to analyze why I am the way that I am. I just accept my sexuality for what it is and enjoy it. I believe that sexual submissiveness is something you are born with. If something in my past made me this way I have not come across it. But I do know that it was not former abuse on anyone's part that made me a sexual submissive and masochist.

[Isabella King]

It is a shame but many submissive have a background of abuse both sexual and emotional. I think that is what makes them submissives the need a Dom that can give them love, protection and some stability.

Nooooooh!

[GreyJack]

The human psyche -- as any Captain Obvious can tell you -- is a complex thing. I think in the case of those suffering previous abuses, the seeking to surrender to a controlling "agent" or "entity" which protects and cares for acts as a balance to the previous abusive controllers. A similar transferral acts as a "balance" to those people who must be controlling in their job, for example, but want to submit in the bedroom. There are some people, without question, who are "born submissive" or "born dominant" -- and within those groups are the "good, the bad, and the ugly." The good come to grips with the realities, face them, and are able to establish positive relationships; the "bad" are those who cannot establish any balance and allow their "innate self" (submissive or dominant) to become destructive to themselves and others. The "ugly" I would consider those who are users -- again either submissive or dominant. They are conscious they could change their behavior/attitude/etc. to acheive a more humane emotional/psychological balance, but remain too self-centered to even try or get some assistance. These are also often the cynical who measure everyone else by their own "standard" and also measure them by the "value" of how well they can be "used" by this abusive type of person. Just my two cents worth of observation, and, again, obviously, it doesn't just apply to BDSM folk but across the human spectrum of activities and behaviors.

[rivka]

My story follows closely to the lines of yours, mastersgem. I was introducted into sexuality when I was very young. I was molested many times by one of my uncles when I lived in Grenada. I was physically and mentally abused there by my stepmother, until my father finally found out and we moved. I was raped by my fathers best friend when I was thirteen, which played in role in me being fascinated with forced sex play. I've always been the type of person to do as they're told and not ask questions. I just never realized there was an actual relationship like that until I began talking with Shaun, my previous Master. He gave me a few websites and I finally realized my place in life.

[TomOfSweden]

I honestly don't believe there is a specific connection between being submissive and living a prior abusive past. Then again I am far too lazy to look up any relavant information that may substantiate my statement.


I've read up on as much psychology research on this as I have been able to find. The problem is that it isn't a lot. Very little research has been done on the roots of masochism. On the other hand there's been a little more research on "how to cure this mental affliction of masochism". Which today is pretty dated in how we view sexual fetishes.

We do know that our brain is super effective at drawing conclusions based on flimsy evidence. It's built/evolved for speed in dangerous situations and not for correctness in pondering the big questions. We really can't draw the conclusion, "I am a masochist" and "I was abused" therefore "the abuse made me a masochist".

The mental back-flip here is that it assumes a healthy or natural starting point of our sexual desires which doesn't include masochism or kinks. Nobody has been able to find such a person. All our sexual needs are extremely complex.

Not to get too deep here, but the Western philosophical tradition we inherited from Plato starts with the assumption that we're faulty, (since we live in the land of the mortals) and that perfection/harmony/health can be attained if we rid ourselves of something holding us back or perhaps we're permanently broken by some damage earlier in our lives. In Plato's day mental perfection could be found among the Gods. This thinking still permeates our culture completely. Christians even think it's some kind of virtue to accept this original sin. Scientologists identify the negative energy as extra terrestrial parasites. New Ager's babble on about attaining harmony constantly without any deeper thought about what it means.

There is off course no such thing as the the mind in harmony. Or some kind of enlightened state of eternal bliss. Or even state of total mental health. Or let me rephrase that. No scientist has been able to find any brain that doesn't have some sort of easily identified pathology. We have a culture revolving around beating ourselves up for mental short-comings. Just stop. Don't try to find the act that was the root of it, because you'll most likely simplify it too much or just simply be wrong.

The word de jour is "biologism" or "biological determinism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biologism
This is the trend right now, and more and more research is piling up to prove it right. If it swings back to behaviourism time will tell. But it's looking pretty bleak for their camp today.


What modern science are saying on this issue seems to indicate that, if you're born with a submissive brain in our culture you're more likely to get abused by those who identify your submissiveness and take advantage of it. In other words. Nothing and nobody makes you through their actions submissive.

The ability to enjoy being beaten is linked to how much endorphins your brain releases when pain is inflicted. Nothing complicated and very easy to understand. No magic. There's nothing you can do with your brain to change this. This is simply the brain you're born with. Yes, you're more likely to discover this "ability" early in life if you where beaten as a kid. And that's a good thing. But you can't acquire the liking of this purely physical feature by early abuse. That's just not how our brains work.

But the field of psychology has a very far way to go when it comes to research in this. They don't like to do research in a field where they won't discover something that needs years of therapy to cure. It's not in their professional interest. And all the limited research seems to indicate that masochism and submissiveness is not something we acquire as the result of something being broken.

[jeanne]

And all the limited research seems to indicate that masochism and submissiveness is not something we acquire as the result of something being broken.

If I were super-rich, I'd fund this research.

And I'm glad that there's at least something that says masochism/submissiveness isn't the result of being broken. Sometimes we just are who we are...

[Isabella King]

I would be incredibly offended if someone called me broken :eek:

[PrincessTigerLily]

I've always had sexual fantasies that involved being forced to perform sexual acts, kidnapping, being tied up and in general being "submissive" (before I knew the term for it).
Some time later I had a boyfriend who was abusive to me sexually, physically and emotionally. While I still had those fantasies, his abuse did not further root my submissiveness. When he forced things upon me it was not a turn on, I hated every minute of it. He did not have my trust and I did not willingly give him control. This is a big difference for me. When I play with my Master I have given him the power on my own accord. My past abusive relationship has somewhat tainted my submissiveness. I still have the deep desire to serve my Master but there are times when the past abuse comes back to haunt me and I cannot perform my fantasies.
At least for my case, the abuse hindered my submissive nature purely for the reason that the power and control this man had over me was abused.

[Isabella King]

Nicely put, Tigerlily.

I’m convinced that we are born with submissive traits; hot wired through our genes somehow, to crave the thrill of forced sex. If we have fantasies of kidnap, imprisonment and rape before any abuse ever takes place, then it can’t possibly be caused by the abuse, can it?

I’ve never been abused but whilst I was growing up and discovering my weird self, I put myself in some really compromising positions and did some pretty dangerous stuff simply because I felt compelled to act out these things in my mind.

I'm not looking for a cure :d

[Sir_Russell]

All I can say to all of this is after the decades in this lifestyle and more then a few sub/slaves it is a theme that I have seen many times. This isn't scientific but it has been my experience.

Not truly shocking since the stats I have seen show that at least 25% of the women in this country have admitted to being abused sexually. That is a very high % in that study to admit that.

As far be broken I don't buy that either, I have been around the block a few times and I am not looking to have a slave that is damaged. Course aren't we all damaged by life and we either find a way to get over it and grow stronger or we get a nice soft padded room to live in.

I was whipped by mommie dearest to the point that I have ribbon scars on my back that show up when I get really angry. That sure didn't make me a sub, even then I was very much a Dom.

[DowntownAmber]

Interesting thread. Thanks you mastersgem for the OP.

I'm inclined to agree with GreyJack: the human psyche isn't exactly a simple matter. We start out with a basic mental mapping, and we use that set of directions to respond to and navigate through what life flings in our way.

In my case, the submissive urges and fantasies surfaced pretty early. They have (obviously) continued into the present. In my work and in my day to day life, I'm a pretty Dom and a pretty controlling personality. I look at my submission partially as a respite from the stress of that, and partially as a symbolic way for me to say to a partner, "my submission is a gift unique to you." Knowing what I know about myself now, I can take an educated glance back at my childhood and realize I felt a lot of pressure even then as I was a fairy mature and pretty bright little kid; and I wonder if the submissive desires weren't sewn into the mental soil then as a way to relax from that?

As for the turn this thread has taken in touching on abuse, again, we all start out hard wired a certain way and abuse of any type can have many and varied different results. It is true that A LOT of victims of physical or sexual abuse will seek out partners that are abusers themselves in a misguided attempt to be able to relive and correct the mistakes of the past. They feel that if they can change the course of things in the present, the wounds of the past will heal. Others will seek out a "safe" way to play through the trauma, i.e. a D/s relationship where the "abuse" is safe, sane, and consensual. In my case, something completely different still: in my mid twenties I began and ended a serious relationship with a man that had very Dom tendancies I was attracted to. We had been friends for some time, I thought it would be okay, but as soon as I was "his" the Dom tendancies turned controlling and I stepped ut of the relationship. Let's just say he didn't take too especially kindly to that and I ended up on the recieving end of a pretty spectacular beating. A few broken ribs and a black eye later, there wasn't ANYTHING subbie about me AT ALL. I topped in every relationship afterward just to grab back some semblance of my sense of control and safety. My relatinship with J-Go is the first since then that I've allowed the sub level of vulnerability back into my life.

One very long winded post later... ;) There's no formula for a sub, no formula for a Dom. You start with a person's general make up, mix them with some life and see what happens. It is, however, a REALLY GOOD THING for both Doms and subs in a partnership to talk about and try and discover where they came from and why. It's all about communication and knowing each other and yourself.

[gemmy]

Thank you Amber - great post and it generally agrees and goes along with what everyone is saying and I, as well, agree

I also do understand there are many submissives out there who've led golden lives and have never felt the hand of abuse on them, it was more to see what the abused gurls thought and what people in general thought about the idea that abuse makes one submissive - thank you all for the responses, it's been interesting :)

I have had many 'Doms' ask me if it's some sick or twisted revelation of my abusive past that has made me submissive and it is why I wanted to post the original question. I sincerely believe we are who we are from birth, our personality is born and although things will change us slightly over a course of time, our 'hard-wiring' is set.

These 'Doms' who have asked me never believe me when I say I was far more submissive before getting abused, than after and like Amber says - if anything it made me more Dominant when I got abused, to push away anything or anyone who may think to try it again.

It is also fairly common, I've noticed, that many submissives have positions of authority in their workplace and I'm no different - I've been running and managing companies most of my professional life, although with a soft approach as opposed to any 'hard as balls' dominant one lol and yes, I've been quite successful for those companies I have grown. Maybe this is a more prevalent commonality among us subs than the abuse one?

Submissives, when recognized by skilled abusers, are a direct target - I have learned that much - it is written on our person somehow and it can get taken advantage of when spotted. I've also learned how to read their 'writing' in return *winks* and it helps in preventing them ever abusing me again. It isn't without backlash though and when they see they can't take advantage, a very angry and accusing person appears lol

[gemmy]

What modern science are saying on this issue seems to indicate that, if you're born with a submissive brain in our culture you're more likely to get abused by those who identify your submissiveness and take advantage of it. In other words. Nothing and nobody makes you through their actions submissive.

well done Tom!

[icey]

thankyou mastersgem for being so honest...that was really big of you and very brave *hugs*

im with TomOfSweden to a degree and i know ive personally put myself in that position through being the more submissive personality on quite a few occasions,but thats as i became older,and arnt all young children submissive in some way or another to any adult or authority?

and the majority of child abuse often begins at a very young age i had a sexual r/ship from around the age of 5 to 13 with a trusted family member.

im not sure that it isnt related with my interests and preferences if im totally honest because when i look back the person who from the age of 5 onwards 'taught' me about sex and submission and 'taught' me to enjoy what i later learnt as an adult is called bdsm so ive often wondered if that isnt a large part of it,because without getting too personal if im honest in a strange way and i know its not 'normal' although extremely frightened i did sort of enjoy some aspects of it.

so i still dont know if i enjoyed it then because i was made that way or if i enjoyed it because i was taught to.

there does unfortunately though seem to be a very high number of submissives who were abused as children and you have to wonder just how much of a connection there may be.
and whlst its true to say that a person cant make you who/what you are its just as true that all your lifes experiences the good and the bad ultimately shape you into who and what you are.

im not saying very well what im meaning to say sorry its a difficult topic to express clearly or it is for me anyway lol

[TomOfSweden]

Not truly shocking since the stats I have seen show that at least 25% of the women in this country have admitted to being abused sexually. That is a very high % in that study to admit that.


I've mentioned it before here. A couple of years ago there was a Swedish study where they asked 18 year old women if they had ever been the victim of sexual assault. Things like unwelcome groping was included. The result was 100% of all Swedish women had by the time they were 18 had at least once been the victim of sexual assault. And with our adamant stance on equaliy hammered into Swedish boys, I doubt Sweden is any worse than anywhere else. Quite possibly less sexual assault.

A bit simplistically put, if sexual assault leads to masochism and all women have been assaulted sexually, all women should be masochists. There must obviously be other factors at play. I mean, if a submissive/masochistic women would search her past and find an instance of sexual abuse and use that as an explanation, we are in fact only presenting an illusion of an explanation. No matter how severe the sexual assault was, we have in fact no reason to believe there's a connection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

[Sir_Russell]

Tom since it has been my personal experience too. I understand how stats can be made to work for any position you wish to state. But life my friend isn't stats it real people and real actions.

When most of the women you have been with in your Life admit to being assualted and not groping but as painful frightening act or acts done on and too them. Your stance is that we are what we are because we are, well I agree some with that statement.

Problem is that we are also a composite of our experiences. Now I am a very different rare form of Dominant so that may also alter the types of women that are drawn to me. I deal a lot with their mind helping them to see that they are very special worthwhile people, I spend as much time helping them find and understand their strength, self cofindence as I do anything.

The only way to know for sure would be to get honest answers from all the submissives out there and that is impossible. So I answer with my experience is yes most submissive have been abused either mentally or sexually.

[deigja]

;-) I´m with Tom too, there are many factors playing together to form our personality. Some are set, some develop depending on the surroundings. We learn how to cope with the things we experience.

I have not made any experience with rape, no experience with sexual assaults. Still i had what i can tell from lookig back now, submissive fantasies.
at the age of 17 perhaps i was pretty insecure but gathered all my courage to tell a boy in my class that i was interested in him. this resulted in me beeing bullied by almost the whole class, all the boys and at least some girls as well. This taught me to hold back a lot, not to open up to any one easily and not to make the first step in a relationship... still it did not influence my beeing submissive. it neither made me less submisse nor reinforced my submissiveness. What i perhaps need more in a relationship than others now is security. I want to feel wanted even more than before and it costs me a lot to open up as I´m pretty much afraid of getting hurt. Also in that time I had some problems with my submissiveness. Because of what had happened to me I was struggeling with myself, with my feelings. I was not in peace with myself and with my desires.
There was a time I actually felt that I was abnormal. Fotunately I have overcome that by now
This is no setting. it is something I aquired over the years. And it has become a habbit hard to break.
What a good D/s relationship has to offer in this respect is the trust that has to build between the lovers, the closeness, the communication that should be there in any relationship but is inevitable in a good D/s relationship. Still my aquired way to cope with feelings makes it harder to reach this point.

Ultimately I can only say one thing: The setting within me was there early but there were a lot of factors that influenced my beeing able to handle it, to reach a point where I was finally selfsecure enough to live what was programmed early on.
And I could even Imagine people beeing turned around in a way. Depending on outer factors I could imagine one, especially someone with a hard life, never to find to him or herself.
As some of you already mentioned there are those people who have been abused and end in a circle of abusive relationships... Some, like you Gem, have broken out, but some perhaps never will. Due to outer circumstances they will perhaps never find to their submissive, dominant or vanilla setting and live it in a way that makes them happy.


Sorry for taking so long.
Greetings, Liz

[Polaris]

Submissives, when recognized by skilled abusers, are a direct target - I have learned that much - it is written on our person somehow and it can get taken advantage of when spotted. I've also learned how to read their 'writing' in return *winks* and it helps in preventing them ever abusing me again. It isn't without backlash though and when they see they can't take advantage, a very angry and accusing person appears lol[/QUOTE]

Sorry to take that out of context a little -- there were other interesting points in the post -- but I really wanted to follow up that thought. I'm not sure if it's the submissiveness that speaks to abusers. I am still submissive, and I am more submissive than dominant in every aspect of my life...this is to say, I think if you look out for signs, you would find them easily in my case -- but I have somehow stopped to attract abusive people. What has changed is not that I am no more submissive, but I've learnt some reasonable human responses to unreasonable requests...that is to say, I've learnt to say no, sometimes I even manage to not feel guilty about it. :) It's like in Amber's story: When she realised that the behaviour of her (dom)partner was more controlling (thus, unhealthy) than dominant (thus healthy), she walked out -- which is the only sane reaction. What I would have done would have been very likely to make up excuses for his behaviour and blame myself -- which is neither a sane nor a healthy reaction.

What I have (or had) written all over myself was probably not 'submissive' but 'codependent'. Of course, the submissive qualities may play into it, as well. And this is what makes it so complicating -- it's, to me, two different things, yet at some point they seem to overlap. And as I can't quite point out where that is, or how these things connect (or don't connect, at that), it bothers me.

As far as my relationships are concerned (not that I had that many), ALL my vanilla relationships were abusive in one way or another. NONE of my BDSM relationships were abusive in any way. This is something that makes me wonder as well.

I'm afraid that's more questions than answers, but I truly appreciate all the other's insight and input! :)

[Isabella King]

I reckon this thread needs a change of direction.

When I was about twelve I used to walk around the country lanes where I lived with no clothes on :eek: Cars even passed me by :eek: How stupid was that?

When I was a teenager I used to dress in tiny short skirts, no knickers, high heeled thigh length boots, skimpy revealing tops and my mum's wig and walk the streets of the local town pretending to be a prostitute :eek: How lucky was I to return home still a virgin :eek:

Did I secretly hope to be kidnapped or ravished? Yeah, drowning in raging hormones that I didn't know how to control, I think I did.

I don't think I deserved to still be a virgin when I got married but I'm so glad I was.


NB: Posting after drinking a bottle of red wine could lead to embarrassment...
I also did other things but it would take more than one bottle of wine to reveal any more.

[gemmy]

lol Isabella - great stories and i know there is a serious undertone to this thread but that was the point - i didn't bare a very intimate part of myself to make people laugh :P

it gets people talking and exchanging experiences and ideas about why they think they might be submissive

quite obviously yours was innate from the start ;)

[DowntownAmber]

As usual, mastersgem, I am following your post with considerable intersest (you always seem to cast us into controversy!).

Obviously cases are being made for both the "nature" and "nurture" side of this argument. This leads me to think that it's likely a healthy dose of BOTH. I am firmly convinced that our experiences do not define the whole of who we are, and certainly can NOT make us into people we are never inclined to be in the first place. However, the incidents that occur (especially the traumatic ones) as we live our lives are most certainly deciding factors in how our raw materials come together to form a person.

If I were to head to my kitchen right now, I could mix up two bowls of cake batter from identical ingredients. I could do EVERYTHING just the same, but then put one cake in the oven for 45 minutes and the other in the microwave. For those of you that don't bake, let me clear this up by saying I ain't gonna' get the same end result. The point? No matter what you start with, different preparation gives different results.

If I felt like prolonging the metaphor here, I could approach it from this angle as well: while the cakes are baking let's head out to the grill -- one grill, one temperature, no variables. Everything I put over the flame will be subjected to the very same set of conditions. So, I set a stone on one side of the grill and a block of wood on the other side. After a little while, the stone is still there. It's a little hot, mind you, but I can grab it off the grill and set it aside and when it cools down it's still going to be the very same stone. The wood? Most of it has burned away. I can scoop as many ashes up as I want, but I'll never be able to make a block of wood out of them again. The same experience that left one type of material unscathed, wrecked another.

We need, as people, to undertand both things: what we are, and the effect our lives have on those innate tendancies.

[TomOfSweden]

Tom since it has been my personal experience too. I understand how stats can be made to work for any position you wish to state. But life my friend isn't stats it real people and real actions.

When most of the women you have been with in your Life admit to being assualted and not groping but as painful frightening act or acts done on and too them. Your stance is that we are what we are because we are, well I agree some with that statement.

Problem is that we are also a composite of our experiences. Now I am a very different rare form of Dominant so that may also alter the types of women that are drawn to me. I deal a lot with their mind helping them to see that they are very special worthwhile people, I spend as much time helping them find and understand their strength, self cofindence as I do anything.

The only way to know for sure would be to get honest answers from all the submissives out there and that is impossible. So I answer with my experience is yes most submissive have been abused either mentally or sexually.

I realize that I may can have come across quite a bit as rooting for Team Nature, (ie nature vs nurture). That wasn't my goal. I was reacting to how nature got lost completely in the formulation of the thread, and made as strong case as I could for nature.

Mastersgem formulated herself as if our sexual identity is based entirely on our childhood. I'd say that the fields of psychology and neurology has developed quite a lot beyond Freud today.

It's probably somewhere in between. Isn't it always? But I think it would be far too simple to only to look at childhood and see how that effected us later in life.

I do also acknowledge that I'm no psychologist or neurologist, so I'm not in a position of putting my foot down about anything. So I won't. But I can tell you my families background and supply my interpretation.

As a kid I was abused to the point where I found it necessary to run away from home, (at 16) to prevent anybody getting killed. Either me or my father. I would have run away earlier if I had anywhere to go. If abuse makes us submissive I should be submissive right?

My father was very dominant. My mother was very submissive. I later in life found out the my father had had a virtually identical relationship with his father which led to him, just as me, running away from home when he was 18. The only difference is that his father, (my grandfather) died quite soon after my fathers disappearance.

In my early relationships I was just as dominant and just as abusive as my father had been. So here we have it. Three generations with bad communication skills who without knowing anything about the generation before copied their behavior in detail. The correlations are uncanny.

But it could still be nurture. Abuse perpetuating itself. But the exact same behaviour could be used as evidence for nature. The instinct to dominate at any cost. I remember feeling extreme frustration when my early girlfriends didn't do what I told them to. For no reason other than some base animal instinct growling in the back of my head.

When I speak to my mother it doesn't take much to realize that she's naturally incredibly submissive. And it's not out of fear of my father. She's had a history of clinging to very domineering characters. Her mother, was also super submissive. Long after her extremely dominant husband died, (this is my grandfather on my mothers side) she was extremely happy when anybody came over so she'd have somebody to take care of. She'd do everything for me. She was also a radical militant feminist and communist in a extremely well off family. She was a powerful person with a powerful mind and will. She was quite an impressive person. But still super submissive.

I can go even further back in our family. It's a long list of extremely dominant men and extremely submissive women on both sides of the family. Sometimes abusive relationships, (like with my father) or not (as my mothers mothers).

Nature for me is by far the simplest explanation. If bee-brains can be programmed to perform and understand extremely complex dances that map out where nectar can be found far away, and navigating by the sun... Then our brains can surely contain even more detailed behavioral social pre-programming.

Why would our brains be so much more different than the animals we evolved from? Why would our brains make a massive leap in functionality, when nothing else in evolution does? The nurture crowd doesn't have a good answer. The days when we believed God created us with free will is gone. That simple explanation doesn't fly anymore.

Behaviorists/Nurture crowd have a lot bigger and complicated problems to solve than the nature crowd. They have to explain where all the primate instincts went! Where did all those activities we can observe in chimpanzees go? All those alpha-and beta-male behaviours. All those submissive chimpanzee female behavours? Did they all just evaporate through the process of evolution? Maybe? Maybe they did? But it's a very bold statement.

I also realize that it would be idiotic to assume that something like a rubber fetish or love of high heels could be genetic. This is a very complicated issue. Probably the most complex scientific issue today. How the brain works. I don't think we'll have an answer for another 50 years. I think it would be wrong to draw any definite conclusions where our kinks and sexual behaviours come from. It is still extremely premature.

At best I can say. "This is who I am, and I'm accepting me as I am now. Never mind why."

[Cool Luke's Hand]

I also realize that it would be idiotic to assume that something like a rubber fetish or love of high heels could be genetic.

How so? When broken down to the most basic level, homosexuality is nothing more than a fetish for having sex with members of the same sex (just as heterosexuality is the opposite and asexuality seems to be the lack of either), and since there's now a growing view that homosexuality is the result of genetics, what's stopping one person's desire to be spanked from from being the same?

[Isabella King]

I pinched this from one of the links that Icy put on another thread. It made me laugh.
:rolleyes:

"If there’s an illness, there’s a website where the mentally ill try desperately to justify their unhealthy fixations and actively recruit others into their sick club. Denial abounds in these people. Rather than seeking help, they, safely huddled together with their own kind, celebrate their own depravity and try to build a “lifestyle” out of disorder."

This seemed as good a place as any to drop it :)

[Cool Luke's Hand]

"If there’s an illness, there’s a website where the mentally ill try desperately to justify their unhealthy fixations and actively recruit others into their sick club. Denial abounds in these people. Rather than seeking help, they, safely huddled together with their own kind, celebrate their own depravity and try to build a “lifestyle” out of disorder."

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[TomOfSweden]

How so? When broken down to the most basic level, homosexuality is nothing more than a fetish for having sex with members of the same sex (just as heterosexuality is the opposite and asexuality seems to be the lack of either), and since there's now a growing view that homosexuality is the result of genetics, what's stopping one person's desire to be spanked from from being the same?

I was being specific about just those things. Rubber and high heels. I'm not going to rule out the possibility that there are qualities in rubber that speak to some base animal desire. I can come up with a long list of qualities in both rubber and high heels that could be candidates to set off genetic triggers. But we quickly run into very dodgy territory. So I didn't mean there aren't any. It would just be wrong to make assumptions.

Most of these genetic triggers aren't even logical. Red lips is a great example. And one which there's actually been research on. Young people have darker colours of red and more full lips. So if everything else is the same, who ever has the fullest and darkest red lips we're going to assume is the youngest no matter how bizarre the lips have been painted and how much the lip-stick is painted outside the lips. It seems like no matter how much we know it's just fake, we cannot see past this. Our instincts make us helpless in avoiding this judgemental error.

Being sexually attracted to youth seems to be some kind of base make-up of all humans. So we're more likely to be turned on by people sporting "whore-make-up" no matter how much we know it's just fake, and no matter how much it offends cultural conditioning, as might be the case with transvestites.

ok, long legs.... I guess.... high heels isn't so strange.

But rubber!!! It's the most fake and unnatural thing I can imagine. That's a large part of why I like it. It offends everything natural. Drives me insane with lust. ....it's getting hot in here.... but ... I cannot see how that can be anything but learned behaviour. But again, I'm no expert. I doubt anybody in the whole world is!!! This isn't exactly a big field of study today :)

[TomOfSweden]

I pinched this from one of the links that Icy put on another thread. It made me laugh.
:rolleyes:

"If there’s an illness, there’s a website where the mentally ill try desperately to justify their unhealthy fixations and actively recruit others into their sick club. Denial abounds in these people. Rather than seeking help, they, safely huddled together with their own kind, celebrate their own depravity and try to build a “lifestyle” out of disorder."

This seemed as good a place as any to drop it :)

he he funny. The funniest thing is that it's so revealing about the person writing it. Fetish for hate?

[gemmy]

...As a kid I was abused to the point where I found it necessary to run away from home, (at 16) to prevent anybody getting killed. Either me or my father. I would have run away earlier if I had anywhere to go. If abuse makes us submissive I should be submissive right?

My father was very dominant. My mother was very submissive. I later in life found out the my father had had a virtually identical relationship with his father which led to him, just as me, running away from home when he was 18. The only difference is that his father, (my grandfather) died quite soon after my fathers disappearance.

In my early relationships I was just as dominant and just as abusive as my father had been. So here we have it. Three generations with bad communication skills who without knowing anything about the generation before copied their behavior in detail. The correlations are uncanny...

and you relate none of your dominance to this then? patterned abuse leading and breading a cycle of the same?

just a question Tom, i'm not at all doubting your thoughts on this topic as you lent much for everyone to think and process - it just sort of jumped out at me when you said it happened to your father and his father before him

[slave eswn]

de'javu-it's like a paragraph (similar) from a book i've written in my head. are we from the same sick family?

[slave eswn]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

yes it is pretty dumb, and since i don't play well with ignorance, let's just not got there...:)

[TomOfSweden]

and you relate none of your dominance to this then? patterned abuse leading and breading a cycle of the same?


I'm not denying the possibility.



just a question Tom, i'm not at all doubting your thoughts on this topic as you lent much for everyone to think and process - it just sort of jumped out at me when you said it happened to your father and his father before him

I was 29 when I found these things out, and I was not prepared for it at all. It feels like I'm still not. It's too bizarre of a string of events.

[Isabella King]

Just a quick point...could you clarify what or who you are calling dumb, Slave Eswn? I'm beginning to feel the flexing of claws ;)

[icey]

he he funny. The funniest thing is that it's so revealing about the person writing it. Fetish for hate?

except he's not supposed to hate he's a preacher lol i found it funny but also a bit frightening too.

like anyone else i wouldnt want to be called broken or 'made' by anyone either but i still believe that our experiences as well as genetics , social environments etc all play a part in what forms and shapes us. how can it not?

[underdog]

I would be incredibly offended if someone called me broken :eek:

why is it that the oppression of the vanilla crowd end up influencing what has been a perfectly healthy way of life scince time began,i too will not be labelled for my sexual orientation and freely talk about it to all of my friends.
believe me. being a top or a bottom is barely scratching the surface of what lies beneath the finger pointers fantasies.

[gemmy]

As usual, mastersgem, I am following your post with considerable interest (you always seem to cast us into controversy!).

thank you, i think? lol *winks*


Obviously cases are being made for both the "nature" and "nurture" side of this argument. This leads me to think that it's likely a healthy dose of BOTH. I am firmly convinced that our experiences do not define the whole of who we are, and certainly can NOT make us into people we are never inclined to be in the first place. However, the incidents that occur (especially the traumatic ones) as we live our lives are most certainly deciding factors in how our raw materials come together to form a person.

If I were to head to my kitchen right now, I could mix up two bowls of cake batter from identical ingredients. I could do EVERYTHING just the same, but then put one cake in the oven for 45 minutes and the other in the microwave. For those of you that don't bake, let me clear this up by saying I ain't gonna' get the same end result. The point? No matter what you start with, different preparation gives different results.

If I felt like prolonging the metaphor here, I could approach it from this angle as well: while the cakes are baking let's head out to the grill -- one grill, one temperature, no variables. Everything I put over the flame will be subjected to the very same set of conditions. So, I set a stone on one side of the grill and a block of wood on the other side. After a little while, the stone is still there. It's a little hot, mind you, but I can grab it off the grill and set it aside and when it cools down it's still going to be the very same stone. The wood? Most of it has burned away. I can scoop as many ashes up as I want, but I'll never be able to make a block of wood out of them again. The same experience that left one type of material unscathed, wrecked another.

We need, as people, to understand both things: what we are, and the effect our lives have on those innate tendancies.

i truly enjoyed this Amber, well done hun :)

[TomOfSweden]

except he's not supposed to hate he's a preacher lol i found it funny but also a bit frightening too.


Reading a book doesn't mean you automatically understand what the author was trying to say.

[icey]

i read quite a few different rantings and ravings of his on many different subjects and forums most of them seem to have disappeared ...anything regarding different lifestyles sexuality and such and he was saying exactly the same things each time,so im fairly sure i got his drift lol

but maybe experiences from his past led him to his beliefs and personality,cos you have to wonder exactly where he got those strong feelings from!

[TomOfSweden]

i read quite a few different rantings and ravings of his on many different subjects and forums most of them seem to have disappeared ...anything regarding different lifestyles sexuality and such and he was saying exactly the same things each time,so im fairly sure i got his drift lol

but maybe experiences from his past led him to his beliefs and personality,cos you have to wonder exactly where he got those strong feelings from!

I was talking about the preachers comprehension of the Bible.

[sub-timmi]

How so? When broken down to the most basic level, homosexuality is nothing more than a fetish for having sex with members of the same sex (just as heterosexuality is the opposite and asexuality seems to be the lack of either), and since there's now a growing view that homosexuality is the result of genetics, what's stopping one person's desire to be spanked from from being the same?


I have to agree with Luke here - I a Bi male and a sub. what I need is the total hand-over of control to a Dom/me. anything like punshment etc. is only a phisical demonstration of this.
I also agree with "Mastersgem" regarding postion of authority held during 'Vanilla' Times - I have held very senior postions in some global companies. It is the power thing that does it for me not an abusive background etc. though without any research to back up my thought that this may be the case for most male subs.
Hope not to upset to many but thats my penny worth on this

[tydnchaynz{NSXX}]

It is also fairly common, I've noticed, that many submissives have positions of authority in their workplace and I'm no different - I've been running and managing companies most of my professional life, although with a soft approach as opposed to any 'hard as balls' dominant one lol and yes, I've been quite successful for those companies I have grown. Maybe this is a more prevalent commonality among us subs than the abuse one?

Submissives, when recognized by skilled abusers, are a direct target - I have learned that much - it is written on our person somehow and it can get taken advantage of when spotted. I've also learned how to read their 'writing' in return *winks* and it helps in preventing them ever abusing me again. It isn't without backlash though and when they see they can't take advantage, a very angry and accusing person appears lol

Gem.......i have noticed this as well. Personally, i've been in critical care nursing for ten years, and i have been on my own since the age of 16. i tend to agree that between the demanding and consistantly stressful aspects of my job, and a long life of HAVING to take care of myself, the psychological aspect of turning that control over to someone who loves, respects, and has nothing but your best interests at heart is a HUGE part of my submissive personality.

As for having targets painted on our backs by skilled abusers, i find that also to be true. As most of you have posted, most of my bondage and forced sex fantasies appeared long before my actual abuse. However, before i was aware of BDSM, i had no name for the way i felt. It did seem that the men that i attracted were all abusers in some form or another. And as has also been mentioned, it tended to make me much less submissive and with that tough girl *no one is ever going to hurt me again* attitude. Of course, this just tends to make me very lonely at times and hurts no one but myself, lol.

When i first stumbled into the world of BDSM, my first thought is "Wow! I'm home." Finally, there was a way to express myself AND other people out there that feel the same way that i do that i can talk to. Since then, i've learned a great deal about myself, and as gem also said, i can spot an abuser a mile away. i have also found out, that in a trusting, safe, and consensual relationship....i like being hurt just a lil' *grins*

As is the case in the world, people are just different. What *causes* someone to be submissive or Dominant??? Who knows. What is nice is that there are places where someone can find other people that have shared in their experiences, whatever they may be, and can offer advice or perhaps just a sympathetic ear in times of need.

Gem.....thanks for the link. And thanks to everyone else for their insight and opinions.

[gemmy]

As is the case in the world, people are just different. What *causes* someone to be submissive or Dominant??? Who knows. What is nice is that there are places where someone can find other people that have shared in their experiences, whatever they may be, and can offer advice or perhaps just a sympathetic ear in times of need.

Well said hun and I'm happy to hear you are taking the time to learn about yourself - truly it does go a long way in finding the One for you :)

[bondsman]

I can't pinpoint a reason for my submissiveness (seems like no one else can either), as I've never been abused as other people have. But I am a believer in personality developing as a result of environment. I've had relationships that were very one sided, including non-sexual, and I'm not sure if this is the cause or result of my need to be controlled. Even my best friend when I was young was a "bully," and that was one of the most open friendships I've ever had. If I associate closeness or intimacy with submission, then my relationships with friends or girlfriends have defined me; if not, then my submissiveness has made me a target for those kinds of people.

I agree with tydnchaynz. It doesn't matter in the end.

[gemmy]

I can't pinpoint a reason for my submissiveness (seems like no one else can either), as I've never been abused as other people have. But I am a believer in personality developing as a result of environment. I've had relationships that were very one sided, including non-sexual, and I'm not sure if this is the cause or result of my need to be controlled. Even my best friend when I was young was a "bully," and that was one of the most open friendships I've ever had. If I associate closeness or intimacy with submission, then my relationships with friends or girlfriends have defined me; if not, then my submissiveness has made me a target for those kinds of people.

I agree with tydnchaynz. It doesn't matter in the end.

No it really matters not, I agree, but it is interesting peeking into the psyche of others and see if we have things that relate or not.

I do like this statement you make bondsman..."But I am a believer in personality developing as a result of environment." - I think it must play bearing on some of who we are as well ;)

[casie1124]

Ah the nature or nurture question....

For me I can remember being quite young and playing with the kids in my neighborhood with the other kids. When playing, the other little girls would fight over who would be the princess that day, I on the other hand always wanted to be the prince's servant :).
I fantasied about being controlled and other various things at a very young age, before they were sexually arousing.
Though through life I found my self in some pretty nasty situations. Some I must admit I put myself in because I didn't realize there was a healthy way to act out my feelings, others by peer dumb luck. Though I believe some of those situations furthered my desire for submission

I do believe that it solely depends on the submissive in question. In my experiences many submissive people I have had contact with have been in abusive situations. I throughly believe a lot of those situations were brought about by not realizing their true nature and seeking out people to fulfill their needs in unhealthy ways. Then there are some that simply became so use to being submissive in situations completely out of their control that they truly need some form of submission to feel whole and complete they don't know how to function otherwise, stumbled on this wonderful world of bdsm and found a healthy way their needs could be met and hopefully have found or will find someone to help them work through their issues. I've also met submissive people who have never experienced anything other than consensual abuse. It's truly an individual situation, not one size fits all.

Casie

[Ownedfyre (mm1)]

I have always been a person that likes to make others happy. Whether it is cooking for them, laundry, helping them out in some way.....I have always liked to please other people. I also can remember that at any given time in my life, where men are concerned, I have always wanted to please them. Strong, arrogant and controlling men have always attracted me. Not always for the best, mind you, but I have always been drawn to them. A man who can handle himself well, take care of things and make me feel like I belong on my knees! That is the man I want. I guess it took me a long time to realize it. I never knew about D/s until recently. It was like finding that 'thing' that made me whole inside. I always felt incomplete and now I know what it is I need. It has been a wonderful discovery for me, and I know it is truly my calling.

[bellelapine]

Thank you for sharing everyone. It has been interesting to find out that a few others have shared similiar experiences on the road that I have, as well as enlightening to find out that we may just be "wired" that way.
I actually beleive that my parents helped to make me submissive. My Sir and I laugh about that sometimes, because there are little things that strike me as similiar between my parents relationship, their relationship with me, my relationship with my siblings and my own D/s relationship with my Sir. Allow me to elaborate, I'll try not to ramble too much :).
When I was younger, unfortunately, one of my siblings was sexually abusive. This went on for sometime particularly during times in which my mother was hospitalized (either with the new baby or her heart surgery). My father was working and trying to take care of us, and threats of violence were generally made to ensure my silence. It started when I was four and continued off and on until I was fourteen, so I was molested off and on for ten years.
While this was going on in secret, I watched my mom. She cooked, cleaned, ate last, didn't sit down until everything was done, and worked at her studies. She was in my eyes a sub, and to be honest I spent a long time both envying her and resenting her for not being stronger (I think however if she had been we would not have the amazing mother/daughter relationship we have now). Because she was ill, I was afraid to tell her anything that went on, and I felt the need to protect.
Soon after the abuse stopped, I began looking for a relationship. Something anything to fill the void I felt. I knew there was something wrong, but it's dreadfully difficult to pinpoint anything when you feel ashamed of your own sexuality. I got into several abusive relationships...actually standing up for myself, fighting back against the jerks I was dating and going out of my way to sort out why this was going on.
Throughout the iffy relationships I had, one thing kept standing out...the fact nothing was doing it for me. I felt alone in my relationships (which were not D/s), I felt something was not right or missing always. I met Sir online and when I spoke to him the first time it was as if a little light turned on in my head.
We spoke about collars and what they meant...and I realized very dejectedly that I would probably never get a collar because I didn't know anyone I could trust to give me one.
Because I had essentially been "broken" through my abuse both in childhood and as an adult, I was sure that nothing would ever be able to get through those walls I'd erected and no one would be just right. (Okay so after that phone call I knew my Sir was it) But up until that point, I'd just been looking in the wrong places at the wrong people and didn't know it.

....kind of makes me feel like singing "A Whole New World" from Aladdin sometimes (teehee)

[moet369]

I am submissive because that is me. I have read the posts on the thread and find them quite intersting as to how people end up being submissive. I on the other hand have not had any abouse in my life and grew up with a pretty "normal" childhood. I grew up the way I am now, which is naturally, and happily submissive. I never talked much in school and shied away from people that were aggressive not because of any other reason except that, that was me. I used to find myself apologizing for everything I would do, Including my presence in rooms, which I did belong but found myself not to "fit". Submission for me is a way of life that I have grown to appreciate. It has drawn me to other lengths in my life that I find quite interesting. For instance, I joined the Army. I find being here that I take orders much easier than my counterparts. Sorry for writing so long. :rolleyes:

[Always_Rockin]

I have known that I was submissive since I was 15 when I started having sex. I always wanted it harder, rougher, kinkier. I wanted to be tied up and called names; along with all of my countless other fantasies. I had a completely normal childhood, no abuse of any kind, but I have always needed to be Dominated and controlled.

[Daes]

Last time I checked, masochism and sadism were labeled as "mental disorders" so looking up research may prove to be less than useful.

I don't have an abusive history, though I do wonder if my japanese background has any significant impact on my submissive nature. In the households I gew up in, both in my parents, grandparents, and otherwise - you were respectful, you offered to help, and I did what I could to keep others happy. My mother was a dominant figure (shes hispanic), and my dad (he's japanese) seems attracted to dominant women. When I look at it from all aspects of his personality I am very much my father's daughter.

I've always found great happiness in giving to others - friends, family, or otherwise - I give because it brings me fullfillment and I have always had that trait. I've always enjoyed servitude. Now when it comes to masochism it is not so much the pain that gives me pleasure so much as everything else. It is my way of pleasing Him to make Him happy because his pride in me brings me joy. When I say "Give" I don't mean in gifts, but in the very utter sense of the word, to give Yourself, to give of yourself.

When I do something that makes Him happy, makes him smile, makes him proud of me, it inspires within me the most wonderful feeling. I can't Be any other way. I want to give all of me. Finding someone that can handle that is another issue entirely.

[babygirl1204]

I think I was born submissive, I was sexually abused as a child at a very early age but didn't remember it until I started having sex. In my teen years I always seem to be attracted to controlling boys but never allowed them to have any control it was always a problem.

After I started having sex I never enjoyed it, I had great partners but somehting was missing. This was my opinion of sex.... key word "was"

It is like a good hot bath, when you first put your foot in its really really hot, then your slowly put the other foot in and lower your body getting deeper into the water until you are all the way in and well once you were all the way in it wasn't so hot after all.

It wasn't until I figured out I was submissive that I realized you can alway turn the heat back up to keep it hot.

babygirl

One other note as a child I was never spanked or beat for any reason I was always protected by my sisters if I were due a spanking they too the blame for what ever I did.

[Lady Hecate]

I'm not sure what makes me submissive.
I think i might be different in my background from other subs too, based on some of what I'm reading here.
I was spanked as a child, but I've never been horribly beaten really. Although I guess what one considers to be
"abuse" might vary from person to person...

I'm pretty sure I'm a sub though..I just left a man who was pretty submissive because I wasn't satisfied by him at all and he frustrated me. I couldn't bearthe thought of always having to tell him what to do..just awful..ugh..

[gemmy]

I'm not sure what makes me submissive.
I think i might be different in my background from other subs too, based on some of what I'm reading here.
I was spanked as a child, but I've never been horribly beaten really. Although I guess what one considers to be
"abuse" might vary from person to person...

I'm pretty sure I'm a sub though..I just left a man who was pretty submissive because I wasn't satisfied by him at all and he frustrated me. I couldn't bearthe thought of always having to tell him what to do..just awful..ugh..

We're all different ;)

and uniquely, we're all the same..

xo

[Lady Hecate]

interesting observation..

nice to meet you BTW, Mastersgem, I'm brand new here.

[gemmy]

Nice to meet you as well Lady Hecate - welcome to the Library :)

[ashtonDs]

At least for my case, the abuse hindered my submissive nature...

Sorry for going a bit backwards here but what PrincessTigerLily said a while back brought up something I haven't thought of for a while.

Even though I can happily go both ways when it comes to D/s, I think I was born submissive. I can remember tying myself up when I was five. It was fun and stimulating, but at the same time frustrating because there were things I wanted to do but couldn't all by myself. My little sessions lasted for quite a few years, until I thought that the risk of being caught got too great.

Then in the fourth grade I was verbally and emotionally abused by a teacher (female). That experience haunted me for years. Still today have a hard time when it comes to submitting to a woman. Trust is hard to give. I'm just now getting to the point where this doesn't have such a negative impact on my life.

It's hard sometimes to admit that I was abused and that I had no control over it. Years ago there was a feminist former friend of mine who that told me out right that only a woman can be abused, and only men can be abusers, therefore I deserved what I got.

My wife and I were married for years before I was able to relate this story to her. She would be the only woman I would bottom for without hesitation, but she's not interested. :( But I'm working on it. :)

Sometimes I wonder how things would have been if I had a normal fourth grade like everyone else.

[Alex Bragi]

...Years ago there was a feminist former friend of mine who that told me out right that only a woman can be abused, and only men can be abusers, therefore I deserved what I got...




*sigh* What pure ignorance and insensitivity! In fact, I believe, it's always much harder for a man to deal with being abused than a woman, since our society views women as in much more need of protection than men.

Mmmm.. what an incredibly interesting topic you're raised here, ashtonDS; one that probably deserves it's own heading. How about starting a thread on this? *s*

[RedHotKinky]

"If there’s an illness, there’s a website where the mentally ill try desperately to justify their unhealthy fixations and actively recruit others into their sick club. Denial abounds in these people. Rather than seeking help, they, safely huddled together with their own kind, celebrate their own depravity and try to build a “lifestyle” out of disorder."

Ha ha, what a fantastic quote... especially the bit about celebrating depravity!!!

Personally I am convinced that people can be born submissive/Dominant, just as people are born gay/straight/bi etc.

I have had bondage and submissive fantasies for as long as I can remember, and often practised self-bondage as a child. I have never been abused, mentally or physically, and had a very happy childhood. I have always been submissive, I have always known I have been submissive (even though I didn't fully understand as a child), and I am proud of what I am.

[denuseri]

right on RedHotKinky, i so think some of us are just born to it, yet i also believe there is a subor dom/domme hiding in every vanilla insides waiting to cum out lol, they just dont know it yet winks

[mastersbirdie]

well I am definatly a submissive I suffered severe abuse that has left me with ptsd but I am working through it. I was molested from age2 until age 17 when I got married I was also sodomized by my grandfather at 14. my marriage was very abusive but is over now. I hated the abuse but I had fantasies about forced sex and having some in control of me. Since I have met my new master he is wonderful there is a lot of bondage and sex. I am his collered slave but there is no abuse I consent to everything. Having the right to consent matters to me. my abuse did not make me a submissive my free choice did. Its what I am. :o

[ChainsOfGonzo]

Waitaminute. We've covered the abuse thing and all, but... what about the non-tramatized, dominant submissive?

I didn't come from the happiest home, but I was neglected more than abused. My childhood wasn't THAT bad, really, and whatever issues I developed because of it have long since been addressed.

But more importantly, I am an INCREDIBLY dominant person in my life in general. I was the manager of a local newspaper. I'm the strong shoulder others rely on. Before I knew my sexuality as well as I do now, I would attract very submissive boyfriends. I am, by all measures, the perfect candidate for a very powerful Domme.

And yet, I am not just submissive, I am a slave. I am an ENTHUSIASTIC slave. Well, for the right person. Very few know about that aspect of me, not because I am ashamed, but because there are only certain people who trigger it in me. I don't have a Dominant side in bed, really. I'm vanilla or submissive. That's it. I can play Dominant for a scene, and I can do it well, but I don't particularly enjoy it. I'm doing it for my partner, not me. So in a sense, I am acting dominant in a submissive way.

I fantasized about acts of submission since childhood, and always resented the submissive men I attracted. I remember, in my mid-early teens, trying to encourage them to take more control. Topping from the bottom. But they wouldn't. It wasn't in them to do it. They were attracted to the General Life me, the dominant personality.

It is only very specific people who notice how submissive I am, and only a tiny percentage of those have the ability to own it. But for the right Dom/me (I'm bi), I am a dedicated sub.

So, what makes me submissive? It's not my childhood. It's not my general take on life. It is a very specific release valve, maybe in response to my generally dominating personality. The strength that allows me to lead so well in my life at large also allows me to complete surrender to another while maintaining my sense of self. I am an intense person, and in love, I will push myself to my limits. That is what makes me submissive.

I am submissive because of my strengths, not my weaknesses.

Basically, we have all different reasons for being submissive. Some are like this, some are like that, so making a generalization is just excluding everyone else.

[kitara]

It's so sad to hear about so many who've been abused in their past; it's something that a person should never have to go through...

For me though, I'm submissive and nothing along those lines has ever happened to me, so perhaps it's a trait that's more within a person from the beginning?

[gemmy]

It's so sad to hear about so many who've been abused in their past; it's something that a person should never have to go through...

For me though, I'm submissive and nothing along those lines has ever happened to me, so perhaps it's a trait that's more within a person from the beginning?

I do agree with you hun, even before I was ever put with the family that abused me, I was the subserviant little one fussing over everyone in my family and wanting to make all happy hehe - it is still that lil gurl inside me wanting to come out and play again :D

It has since worried me to some extent that those abuses that I endured are large in nature those things that now highly turn me on *blushes*

Who knows, truly it's all relative - certainly our pasts helped define who we've become today but isn't (imo) the core of who we are born as ;)

Welcome to the madness and thanks for sharing!

[kitara]

I do agree with you hun, even before I was ever put with the family that abused me, I was the subserviant little one fussing over everyone in my family and wanting to make all happy hehe - it is still that lil gurl inside me wanting to come out and play again :D

It has since worried me to some extent that those abuses that I endured are large in nature those things that now highly turn me on *blushes*

Who knows, truly it's all relative - certainly our pasts helped define who we've become today but isn't (imo) the core of who we are born as ;)

Welcome to the madness and thanks for sharing!

I guess I'm the same actually, always obsessing that guests and other people are happy hehe

Thanks for saying hi too :p

[livy]

I would have to agree with you, my backround is not as bad as yours but i knew i was before i knew a name. I had abuse of both types growing up, but i dont let a man hit me without my permission anylonger. I am glad to see you have broken the cycle.

[jelly88]

Well I have barely posted here before. I have read alot but haven't felt that I have been in a posistion to comment on anything. So I have said a few things here and there that don't matter, if that makes sence.

I do however feel like I can share my story on the subject of abuse and submissive nature.

The back drop is when I was little so little I cannot remember when it started I was sexually abused by my grandfather. I was 3 or younger when it started. The thing that always gets me is that he used to ask my permission and even though it scared me and it hurt me and I didn't like it I was too afraid to say no. When I finally got the guts to say stop it, it did stop. So I had alot of guilt over the whole thing.

And to add to the guilt thing when I was a kid I used to have a very sexual imagenation.

I had alot of issues with my self worth when I was a young teen and went through classic reactions to sexual abuse. I used to self mutilate, badly and danerously. I had panic attacks. The whole sad story.

The worest thing was I still said yes when I meant no with anything sexual but I am sure all they guys though I was on an even playing feild with them. At that point a big fantasy of mine was to be raped violently, then beat up, called a slut and left cold alone and bleeding. That was the most I felt I was worth.

In my later teens when I was finding myself through the clouds of the abuse, sexually things changed alot. I didn't want to be a sad sorry little victom anymore so I started take charge in the bedroom. With a particular boyfriend I used to play games where I would set all the rules for what was and wasn't allowed to go on without relating it at all to BDSM stuff. But I guess it was. I think it made things feel safe. And I liked that he was so hot for me I could get him to do anything (yeah I am vain). I used to think from time to time that I was treating others as I would like to be treated. If that makes sence.

When I got to be where I call stable I fell inlove and sex went very vanilla... for a wile.

As things progressed with this guy I had fallen inlove with making love in the vanilla way we did, didn't feel a big enough expression of how I felt for him. I wanted him to have me in anyway he wished and do things with him that I hadn't done with anyone else. I wanted him to let me put all my trust into him. I wanted him to do all the nasty thing I had thought of to me. I worshipped him. He didn't get it. He wasn't a Dom type. It didn't workout.

So that is what I see as my journey to now. I am not really sure yet if I really fit in the lifestyle. The way I feel about my submissive side from all that back story is that it has been there from a bad point of veiw, that I blame on the abuse, but has also been there from a good point of veiw.

In conclusion, I don't know how I would be without the abuse I can't remember that far back. But what I do know is that the approach I am taking to everything to do with sex is from a healthy self respecting way and thats all that matters really.

I hope I said what I am meaning to say.

[Just A Girl]

I'm the complete opposite to you mastersgem...
I grew up with apsolutly no male role-model/ father-figure. I guess one could argue that as a result I now look for that in my sex life, which I suppose is true to some extent... as i stated in another post ages ago, i'm definatly part of that "little girl" sub catagory of submission...
But I dunno... I definatly think my submission is a result of my lack of submission in my vanilla life... I had to grow up very quickly and take control of a family that was falling apart, so for me,being able to lay back and take orders is a nice change that i desperatly need to stop me getting overwhelmed by my hectic life...

[Merle]

Thank you thank you thank you mastersgem for bringing this up. This question has always intrigued me actually - why my body decided to be submissive. Maybe this discussion could shed some light? :) (It's such a fun discussion already. ^^)

I've always been very strong, physically and mentally. Not in a muscular way but my family's roots go waa~ay back into the military, martial arts, weaponry, etc. so I've been brought up knowing how to fight, and how to kill. But it also has its counterproductive result - since my family drilled it into my mind that I must never fight someone unless for defense and that I might accidentally hit someone too hard - I have only ever fought once in my life. I think the warnings scared me off fighting that I lost the ability to judge when would be a good time to fight.

I guess people just automatically took that as a sign of passiveness and I, somehow (I'm still confused on how), got into two abusive relationships. It wasn't until my second relationship sent me to the hospital with severe internal bleeding that my youngest sister, who was the only one that knew vaguely what was going on, told me to settle the issue or she'll settle it for me. I still felt bad about doing violence, regardless of what violence was done to me, so I talked her out of it and told him I wanted out of this. When he tried to hit me again, my roommate and my spar partner, Tiffany, walked in and she just went crazy.

I'm still glad to this day that she didn't kill him. But let's just say he was lucky to be near the hospital when she went at him.

I forgot exactly how the conversation went between Tiff and I, but one thing led to another, and she thought maybe if I could trust someone intimately again, I could put this behind me. She introduced me to this lifestyle and I was very intrigued. I was nineteen so four years have passed since then. I'm still so new to all this, simply because there wasn't any time for me to learn and explore what with the graduate and bachelor degree and everything. But I still wonder how I got to this point. Anyone care to break it down for me? ^^

[rooshoe]

This is something that existed in me before I even had a name for it. I knew I felt different, that I wanted - make that needed - to feel dominated, I just didn't know how to describe it. I didn't realize that dominant people existed; I usually just fantasized about faceless authority figures ordering me around.

Even though submission occurs in my head, I feel it in my body. When something/one makes me feel submissive, I get this warm, tingly feeling in my shoulders and I suddenly feel lighter. There's an indescribable connection that hits deep inside of me, even for just a moment. I don't think anything makes me that way; I simply am submissive.

[gemmy]

This is something that existed in me before I even had a name for it. I knew I felt different, that I wanted - make that needed - to feel dominated, I just didn't know how to describe it. I didn't realize that dominant people existed; I usually just fantasized about faceless authority figures ordering me around.

Even though submission occurs in my head, I feel it in my body. When something/one makes me feel submissive, I get this warm, tingly feeling in my shoulders and I suddenly feel lighter. There's an indescribable connection that hits deep inside of me, even for just a moment. I don't think anything makes me that way; I simply am submissive.

Great description!! :D

[Xelebes]

Personally,I'm very much a rounded submissive. That is, most social facets are handled with a submissive power dynamic. IT is only there because it is an innate part of my personality, not because I have learned to be it or is from purely genetic roots. It is an extension of the body and my capacity to accomplish things that determine my preference for social dynamics. This may or may not have lead to examples of being abused and not responding initially to these transgressions, but it certainly exposes me to this opportunity for others.

Submissiveness, like dominance, requires a maturity with regards to this dynamic to avoid the onset of abuse. The maturation of this dynamic is most certainly learned.

[stripedangel]

i believe i learned it, since my mother was very submissive to my father...by choice and with much love, i might proudly add (now that i can appreciate it). i tried giving my submission to Master but it was an unsuccessful attempt. The cause of this was on both our parts, mine due to my abuse history and his due to his past as well. It's like now i'm ready...so is Master, we just need to retrain our brains to react accordingly.

[butterflySlave4u]

This is something that existed in me before I even had a name for it. I knew I felt different, that I wanted - make that needed - to feel dominated, I just didn't know how to describe it. I didn't realize that dominant people existed; I usually just fantasized about faceless authority figures ordering me around.

Even though submission occurs in my head, I feel it in my body. When something/one makes me feel submissive, I get this warm, tingly feeling in my shoulders and I suddenly feel lighter. There's an indescribable connection that hits deep inside of me, even for just a moment. I don't think anything makes me that way; I simply am submissive.

very well said, rooshoe...i too subscribe to the "Nature Vs Nurture" aspect of D/s...i used to think it was a "need to be needed" type of thing, but it goes much MUCH deeper...it's inside me, it's what i am, not what i do....

[rooshoe]

I think I was born submissive. I can remember tying myself up when I was five. It was fun and stimulating, but at the same time frustrating because there were things I wanted to do but couldn't all by myself. My little sessions lasted for quite a few years, until I thought that the risk of being caught got too great.


Wow, so I'm not the only one! I was always playing with myself - tying myself up, gagging myself, finding things to push into myself... I worried about being caught, but the lure of it was too much to deny. I'd fantasize about getting "in trouble" and an authority figure spanking me or making me sit in a corner, etc, but I was also frustrated because I wanted someone there to actually make me do these things, not just fantasize about them. And I wasn't even in middle school when this stuff started!

[wellbehavedboytoy]

I simply am just a junkie for the feeiling of having no control. I am naturally a person that is a on the fly type of guy. The thrill of having a Domme order me around and humiliate me just fits right in with my personality. Vanilla things that give me that no control feeling that I would like to try would be skydiving or bungee jumping.

[MissLindyLoo]

As a side note from another thread, i've noticed subs have different things in their make up that are common and i wondered if there are some things that make or 'set' our submissiveness as we go through this world.

myself, i've known my whole life (and before i knew what it was called), i've had sexual outdoor bondage fantasies since i was a very young gurl (8 at least).

also, when i was five i was put with a horrible family that abused me constantly in all the forms, beatings, emotional degradation, sexual abuse when i got older - i left when i was 13 and moved around living in the streets for a few years before getting back on track and finishing school - in that time i'd been raped 3 times

i would follow this cycle of abuse for most of my years, picking abusing aggressors over confident assertives - i now know the difference and it's been 10 yrs since a man has put me in the hospital

so, although i know i was submissive before all the abuse, i wonder if it hasn't had a hand in further 'setting' the seed of my submission, firmly planting it there?

i know that the abuse didn't help my judgement, and in the past i was giving into an unhealthy submission of their deciding as opposed to a healthy submission of my choosing

now, no one gets to take advantage of me since breaking that cycle for good but i wonder if it's had a firm hand and if others think things like this has in their submissiveness as well?

*disclaimer* i'm not trying to put it all in one 'box', just wondering if we share any commonalities period *smiles*

I was in a bad marriage and got out ..I am now married to a man who I love to do things for because we put each other first. He says that the sub really has all the power because it is the sub that gives him his power. We talk about what we will do together or try together. I think that is how it should be.

[ghanima{DM690}]

I too have a history of abuse both sexual and emtional...but i have differentiate what "they" did as oppose to what I let happen. but i'm sure my history plays a role in what I have become. I am much stronger and will never let that happen again...unless i ask for it. took a long time but im here

[gemmy]

I too have a history of abuse both sexual and emtional...but i have differentiate what "they" did as oppose to what I let happen. but i'm sure my history plays a role in what I have become. I am much stronger and will never let that happen again...unless i ask for it. took a long time but im here

Good on you ghanima ;) and we're happy you made it here hehe

[rooshoe]

Submission for me is a way of life that I have grown to appreciate. It has drawn me to other lengths in my life that I find quite interesting. For instance, I joined the Army. I find being here that I take orders much easier than my counterparts. Sorry for writing so long. :rolleyes:

Wow, you too? Lol i thought i was the only one who did/noticed that. Also, i always wondered, when i looked around, how many people standing in formation next to me had closeted kinks..