Would You Believe Police say Austrian man raped daughter, fathered 6 children--merged

[mkemse]

By VERONIKA OLEKSYN, Associated Press Writer
48 minutes ago

Police say Austrian man raped daughter, fathered 6 children
VIENNA, Austria - A woman who went missing in 1984 was found by police over the weekend and told investigators that she had been held by her father in a cellar, where she was repeatedly raped and gave birth to at least six children, police said Sunday.

Authorities said that the father may have told acquaintances and relatives that his daughter had joined a cult and disappeared.

Franz Polzer, head of the Lower Austrian Bureau of Criminal Affairs, told reporters that the father, identified as Josef F., had been taken into custody. Police said Josef and his wife had been raising three of their daughter's children. The other three grew up in the cellar.

"We are being confronted with an unfathomable crime," Interior Minister Guenther Platter said.

The case unfolded after a gravely ill teenager was taken around April 19 to a hospital in the town of Amstetten, where she was found unconscious in the building where her grandparents live, police said. Told that the sick 19-year-old's mother was missing, authorities publicly appealed for her to come forward.

Officers received a tip and picked up the mother near the hospital on Saturday, police said.

The mother, whom authorities identified as Elisabeth F., told officers that she had just been released after two decades of captivity at the hands of her father. She said that on Aug. 28, 1984 her father had sedated her, handcuffed her and locked her in a room in the cellar of the family's apartment building.

In an interview with AP Television News, Polzer said that Josef F. had given police a code to unlock a hidden door, revealing the area where Elisabeth and the children had been held.

It had "several" rooms, an uneven floor and a "very narrow" hallway, Polzer said, adding that the door was "very small," and that one had to bend one's head to get through.

"Everything is very, very narrow and the victim herself ... told us that this was being continually enlarged over the years," Polzer said.

The area also contained sanitary facilities and "small hot plates" for cooking, Polzer said.

On its Web site, ORF reported that the rooms were at most 5.6 feet high and that the area had a TV.

The area also included a "padded cell," Hans-Heinz Lenze, a senior Amstetten district official, said in remarks broadcast late Sunday.

Elisabeth said her father had been sexually abusing her since she was 11. According to the police statement, Elisabeth said that she and her children got food and clothing only from her father and her mother, Rosemarie, had not been involved.

Police said Elisabeth F. appeared "greatly disturbed" during questioning and agreed to talk only after authorities assured her she would no longer have to have contact with her father and that her children would be cared for.

Police said Josef, 73, and Rosemarie had raised three of Elisabeth's children in their apartment in a two-story building in Amstetten, a small town about 80 miles west of Vienna.

Josef and Rosemarie registered the children with authorities, saying that they had found them outside their home in 1993, 1994 and 1997, at least one with a note from Elisabeth saying she could not care for the child.

The three other children apparently remained in the cellar with Elisabeth, police said.

"Elisabeth F. taught them how to speak," Polzer was quoted as saying by the Austria Press Agency.

Police said the sick 19-year-old, Kerstin, had been found unconscious on April 19 in the apartment building, with a handwritten note purportedly signed by Elisabeth, asking that she be given care.

After Kerstin was hospitalized, police said, Josef F. freed Elisabeth and the two remaining children from the cellar and told his wife that their daughter and the children had come back to them.

The Austria Press Agency reported that, in addition to Kerstin, three of the children are boys and two are girls, the youngest of whom is 5.

All are in psychiatric care, along with Elisabeth and Rosemarie, police said. DNA tests are expected to determine whether Josef F. is the father.

Police cited Elisabeth as saying that she gave birth to twins in 1996 but one died several days later because it was not properly cared for, according to police, who said they are investigating.

Josef, the alleged abuser, then apparently removed the corpse from the cellar and burned it, the police statement said. It was not immediately clear if the twin who allegedly died was included in the police total of six children.

Sunday's developments are reminiscent of the case of Natascha Kampusch, which shocked Austrians less than two years ago.

Kampusch was 10 years old when she was kidnapped in Vienna on her way to school in March 1998. She was held for the next 8 1/2 years by Wolfgang Priklopil, who largely confined her to a tiny underground dungeon in his home in a quiet Vienna suburb. Priklopil threw himself in front of a train train just hours after Kampusch's dramatic escape on Aug. 23, 2006

[gagged_Louise]

If this is near true - and it seems to be - it's the most gruesome incest and abuse story I've ever heard of. Words fail me:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Austria-Captive-Daughter.html

The man locked up his own daughter in a cleverly hidden underground cellar - or rather a bunker with several rooms - and raped her many times over a period of a quarter of a century; he had reported her gone missing in 1984. She bore her father six children, three of whom were also kept prisoners down there (did he rape one or two of them as well?) The entry ot this underground place was so well hidden the police didn't even find it, despite searching doggedly for it, until the old man showed them.

*pukes*

[mkemse]

If this is near true - and it seems to be - it's the most gruesome incest and abuse story I've ever heard of. Words fail me:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Austria-Captive-Daughter.html

The man locked up his own daughter in a cleverly hidden underground cellar - or rather a bunker with several rooms - and raped her many times over a period of a quarter of a century; he had reported her gone missing in 1984. She bore her father six children, three of whom were also kept prisoners down there (did he rape one or two of them as well?) The entry ot this underground place was so well hidden the police didn't even find it, despite searching doggedly for it, until the old man showed them.

*pukes*


Same post as mine LOL

[Tufty]

If this is near true - and it seems to be - it's the most gruesome incest and abuse story I've ever heard of. Words fail me:


I sat and watched the report on the News last night...and just couldn't think of anything to say.

[mkemse]

I sat and watched the report on the News last night...and just couldn't think of anything to say.

It is one of those things that speak for itself, outragous is not even a good word to use, unbelievabled maybe

[Warbaby1943]

It is one of those things that speak for itself, outragous is not even a good word to use, unbelievabled maybe
Unbelievable for sure. Most of us can't even begin to imagine how anything like this could even be possible. They should hang the fucker by his nuts until he is dead.

[Thorne]

Unbelievable for sure. Most of us can't even begin to imagine how anything like this could even be possible. They should hang the fucker by his nuts until he is dead.

Nah. Too easy on him. Lock him up for life in a deep, dark cell with nobody for company except Big Bubba Butt Fucker. Give him a taste of his own medicine.

[gagged_Louise]

Nah. Too easy on him. Lock him up for life in a deep, dark cell with nobody for company except Big Bubba Butt Fucker. Give him a taste of his own medicine.


He's 73 years old already. I don't think there is any punishment you could pick that would be practicable to really fit the scale of the crime in this case, except possibly hung, burnt and quartered (btw I don't support capital punishment though it's dead easy to understand why it would feel ight here). But surely somebody must have kown or had a snifff of this? How could he carry out all of this - building a locked bunker below his house, going down to see his "extra kids" more or less regularly, and dealing with a couple of childbriths - without anyone geting involved from the outside world or guessing there was something afoot??

This is like out of a Michael Haneke movie (guess it's no accident that he's from Austria, his films are about just this kind of "I didn't see nothing of those dreadful things" attitude).

[Venom]

After twenty-four years somebody just HAS to know something - same with Natascha Kampusch. On the other hand: no normal person - I hope I include us - even considers that something that monstrous is happening right now next door...

[mkemse]

Nah. Too easy on him. Lock him up for life in a deep, dark cell with nobody for company except Big Bubba Butt Fucker. Give him a taste of his own medicine.

Good idea :)

[mkemse]

He's 73 years old already. I don't think there is any punishment you could pick that would be practicable to really fit the scale of the crime in this case, except possibly hung, burnt and quartered (btw I don't support capital punishment though it's dead easy to understand why it would feel ight here). But surely somebody must have kown or had a snifff of this? How could he carry out all of this - building a locked bunker below his house, going down to see his "extra kids" more or less regularly, and dealing with a couple of childbriths - without anyone geting involved from the outside world or guessing there was something afoot??


His wife helped deliver the babie, rembmer I send that he told neigbhors that his daughter had left home and then asked to come back 24 years later ... Yea Right, anyone want to buy the bridge I own on the outskirts of Tempe Arizona??

[mkemse]

An update to this, Australian Police said if this man is tried and found giuty of the crime the most he can serve under their laws is 15 years, nice system there huh??

[Venom]

A parking offender gets more...

[mkemse]

i know i got that info off of yahoo news, UNBELEVIABLE the whole story, 15 years is way to knid fir him and they said the 15 years is NOT based on thefact that he is 71 but simply their law

Wonder how long you get for coke posssesion??

[Venom]

In my country we have preventive detention. A psycho does his ten or fifteen years, but if is decided that he is a menace for others, he stays in jail.

[gagged_Louise]

Let's not get into a debate on capital punishment and lifetime jail here. I really don't think there's any punishment that would have been sure to avert him from doing these evil acts before he went to work. If you do this kind of atrocity you're somehow beyond rational thinking, even rational fear.

[Venom]

I'm not into dreaming of the Good Ol' Times, but some decades ago, these crimes didn't happen so often. Sure, some hadn't been detected or solved, or people didn't get the news with much less TV and no Internet. And Josef F started twenty-four years ago, but in the last years the number of these crimes literally exploded.

[Alex Bragi]

You know what troubles me most about this? I worry that's it's more than likely not an isolated case.

[mkemse]

You know what troubles me most about this? I worry that's it's more than likely not an isolated case.

I agree with you Alex 100%, he simply got caught

[Razor7826]

An update to this, Australian Police said if this man is tried and found giuty of the crime the most he can serve under their laws is 15 years, nice system there huh??

Perhaps for the single harshest crime, but what about multiple charges being brought against him?

And, he's 74 years old. Odds are he won't be around in 15.

[Razor7826]

I'm not into dreaming of the Good Ol' Times, but some decades ago, these crimes didn't happen so often. Sure, some hadn't been detected or solved, or people didn't get the news with much less TV and no Internet. And Josef F started twenty-four years ago, but in the last years the number of these crimes literally exploded.


They probably did happen as frequently per population. However, increased population has likely increased the frequency of horror stories relative to time. Also, many stories like this would have never escaped their region without internet and television.

[mkemse]

Perhaps for the single harshest crime, but what about multiple charges being brought against him?

And, he's 74 years old. Odds are he won't be around in 15.

If he is sent to Prison, which after pleading guilty I can not seen any reason why he would not be, he won't survive many days in Prison, much less another 15 years, "Big Bubba" wil take care of him

[Warbaby1943]

Nah. Too easy on him. Lock him up for life in a deep, dark cell with nobody for company except Big Bubba Butt Fucker. Give him a taste of his own medicine.LMAO I like your idea even better than mine.

[thrall]

Oh trust me.........i can think of a few.....VERY.....good punishments for him....sorry death at this point is far to good for him...

If i had my way......he would learn a whole new definition for pain, torture and abuse......and do everything in my power to keep him alive for a very very long time......

[Thorne]

Oh trust me.........i can think of a few.....VERY.....good punishments for him....sorry death at this point is far to good for him...

If i had my way......he would learn a whole new definition for pain, torture and abuse......and do everything in my power to keep him alive for a very very long time......

Mmmm! Nothing sexier than a bloodthirsty wench!

[fetishdj]

His wife helped deliver the babie, rembmer I send that he told neigbhors that his daughter had left home and then asked to come back 24 years later ... Yea Right, anyone want to buy the bridge I own on the outskirts of Tempe Arizona??

Did she? I neer saw that piece of info... last I heard she was claiming to be totally unaware of the whole thing. I suspect however that she knew more than she claims and is trying to distance herself. After all, I find it hard to believe that he was able to construct such a complex set up in his cellar without his wife or even his neighbours knowing about it. Most people, if told not to investigate a particular area of their own house, would at the very least be curious. Especially when strange noises of construction happened.

I think part of the reason this sort of thing appears more common these days is greater and more reliable reporting of crimes. Its the old argument used against expanding the police force - 'see, you increase the force and the crime rate goes up! Therefore more police = more crime and we should reduce the police force." But of course, all it means is more police means more resource to detect and record crime rates. There is always going to be a pool of undetected crime out there which will never appear on statistics. After all, everyone is guilty of something under the modern legal system (speeding, not picking up dog poo, loitering, drunk and disorderly, littering, driving while using a mobile phone, and lets not forget the classic crime of 'looking at a policeman in a funny way' which I did see someone do once and get into trouble for... :) )

[claire]

Does anyone besides me have really uncomfortable feelings about all this because it matches some of my darkest fantasies? Not anything I would want to do in real life, or have done to me, and I can only agree that it is a horrendous crime. But non-consent, imprisonment, incest, forced pregnancy all combine to turn me on in stories. :confused:

[mkemse]

Did she? I neer saw that piece of info... last I heard she was claiming to be totally unaware of the whole thing. I suspect however that she knew more than she claims and is trying to distance herself. After all, I find it hard to believe that he was able to construct such a complex set up in his cellar without his wife or even his neighbours knowing about it. Most people, if told not to investigate a particular area of their own house, would at the very least be curious. Especially when strange noises of construction happened.

I think part of the reason this sort of thing appears more common these days is greater and more reliable reporting of crimes. Its the old argument used against expanding the police force - 'see, you increase the force and the crime rate goes up! Therefore more police = more crime and we should reduce the police force." But of course, all it means is more police means more resource to detect and record crime rates. There is always going to be a pool of undetected crime out there which will never appear on statistics. After all, everyone is guilty of something under the modern legal system (speeding, not picking up dog poo, loitering, drunk and disorderly, littering, driving while using a mobile phone, and lets not forget the classic crime of 'looking at a policeman in a funny way' which I did see someone do once and get into trouble for... :) )

My apologies on that mis information on the delivery on the children, and as much as I hate to say it, from the entire siutation i think that is a very minor part of the story

[Thorne]

Does anyone besides me have really uncomfortable feelings about all this because it matches some of my darkest fantasies? Not anything I would want to do in real life, or have done to me, and I can only agree that it is a horrendous crime. But non-consent, imprisonment, incest, forced pregnancy all combine to turn me on in stories. :confused:

I was having similar thoughts. I doubt that there are too many doms here who haven't at some point had thoughts of keeping a sub in a dungeon for long term torture. I mean FUN! And I would venture to guess that a good number of subs would be willing to endure it, at least for a while.

But that would be CONSENSUAL, something completely different than what's in this situation. And 24 years is pushing it, to say the least.

And you're not alone in enjoying the FICTION of something similar to this. As long as you (and I) can discriminate between fantasy and reality there's nothing wrong with it.

[mkemse]

I was having similar thoughts. I doubt that there are too many doms here who haven't at some point had thoughts of keeping a sub in a dungeon for long term torture. I mean FUN! And I would venture to guess that a good number of subs would be willing to endure it, at least for a while.

But that would be CONSENSUAL, something completely different than what's in this situation. And 24 years is pushing it, to say the least.

And you're not alone in enjoying the FICTION of something similar to this. As long as you (and I) can discriminate between fantasy and reality there's nothing wrong with it.

Thorne
i agree with what you said, but I also agre with your fact that if a Dom keeps his sub like that is HAS to be consensual, the incident with this family was in no way as such, which maes it as bad as it is, plus even in RL i do not see any sub willing ot be kept locked up for 24 years, maybe afew days but never 24 years and to have 7 children to boot, not evn sure what type of fantasy this would be

[fetishdj]

My apologies on that mis information on the delivery on the children, and as much as I hate to say it, from the entire siutation i think that is a very minor part of the story

Wasn't saying it was misinformation - was not aware of it is all.

It can be a very important piece of information from the PoV of the wife as it casts doubt on any 'I was unaware of this and condemn it utterly' defense she may have.

As for fantasies... yes, they are great in fiction but never in real life non consensual situations....

[mkemse]

Wasn't saying it was misinformation - was not aware of it is all.

It can be a very important piece of information from the PoV of the wife as it casts doubt on any 'I was unaware of this and condemn it utterly' defense she may have.

As for fantasies... yes, they are great in fiction but never in real life non consensual situations....

Thanks, and the more they tell about the situation the uglier it gets

[Thorne]

Thorne
i agree with what you said, but I also agre with your fact that if a Dom keeps his sub like that is HAS to be consensual, the incident with this family was in no way as such, which maes it as bad as it is, plus even in RL i do not see any sub willing ot be kept locked up for 24 years, maybe afew days but never 24 years and to have 7 children to boot, not evn sure what type of fantasy this would be

I think the term for it would be "sick fantasy" in medical parlance.

Yeah, I agree, it's unlikely anyone would WANT to be kept prisoner for that long. Even one year would be too much, and not only for the sub. The amount of extra work for the dom would be too much for any length of time as well. To even contemplate that kind of relationship would make me wonder about the person's sanity.

[fetishdj]

The amount of extra work such as building a whole, plumbed in (albeit very tiny) apartment in the basement and keeping it secret from his wife... I mean, it takes me months to decorate the hall :)

[nighttimestar]

I was having similar thoughts. I doubt that there are too many doms here who haven't at some point had thoughts of keeping a sub in a dungeon for long term torture. I mean FUN! And I would venture to guess that a good number of subs would be willing to endure it, at least for a while.

But that would be CONSENSUAL, something completely different than what's in this situation. And 24 years is pushing it, to say the least.

And you're not alone in enjoying the FICTION of something similar to this. As long as you (and I) can discriminate between fantasy and reality there's nothing wrong with it.



I agree with Thorne. There is a BIG HUGE difference between this and enjoying fiction. Do not feel bad b/c you enjoy and have fantasies.

I really feel bad for the kids in this situation it really sickens me.. I get nauseous just thinking about it...

[mkemse]

I agree with Thorne. There is a BIG HUGE difference between this and enjoying fiction. Do not feel bad b/c you enjoy and have fantasies.

I really feel bad for the kids in this situation it really sickens me.. I get nauseous just thinking about it...

I agree what her father did to her is way beyond unexcusable, and what bothers me even more is that under there law, regadrless of HIS age he can get no more the 15 years, winderfull judicial system

The kids will be soo messed up for life

[Venom]

(...)and what bothers me even more is that under there law, regadrless of HIS age he can get no more the 15 years, winderfull judicial system



To put it bluntly: I go to jail for thirty hours, and then I can rape and torture a girl for two days - what a deal!:mad:

[stripedangel]

O.M.G. .And only 15 years too....ah, well.

death is too quick. i'd much rather see Bubba take care of this. Prisoners here really think that child abusers have "purdy mouths" tho, and they like em even better with the teeth busted out. i would hope they're the same way there...wait, Austria? They love children there, so i'd count on Bubba taking care of it. Would love to hear how this one turns out, tho.

[Venom]

The guards at jail know about the high opinion of prisioners when it comes to crimes with childrens. This guy will be isolated from all others till the end of his days.

[Thorne]

A thought here. (Miraculous, I know!)

He can get no more than 15 years according to their laws, but is that total or for each charge? I'm sure that in the US he would be charged with at least 4 counts of illegal imprisonment, one or more counts of incest, 3 or more counts of child abuse, plus a half-dozen other charges, all of which could add to his sentence. Is that a possibility in Austria?

[Venom]

That's a good question! I'm careful to say it, but I think cannot get more than fifteen years. Nonetheless, after his regular jail-time, and he's still living, he will go into preventive detention, that's for sure.

[stripedangel]

Sheesh

[Tufty]

Here in UK, he would probably be out after 10 years of a 15 year sentence unless a judge specified that he must serve the maximum term. They get remission for 'good behaviour' which I think is a total farce!

(Actually, for a crime like that, it's likely that he would be detained at a maximum security jail for the rest of his life)

[mkemse]

Here in UK, he would probably be out after 10 years of a 15 year sentence unless a judge specified that he must serve the maximum term. They get remission for 'good behaviour' which I think is a total farce!

(Actually, for a crime like that, it's likely that he would be detained at a maximum security jail for the rest of his life)

I agree, but someone like him is not a subject for Good Behavior. nothing they can do to him will be good enough

[stripedangel]

Here in the US.......he'll be out in less than 5 because they have to allow space for the guy who was caught with a joint.

[Tufty]

It's a shame to keep him in prison...a 9mm round only costs around 30 cents!!

[stripedangel]

...and if you shoot him just right, you can keep him alive and miserable for quite some time! LOL

[MMI]

Come on - calling for his blood makes you lot no better than he is.

In all probability he'll be deemed insane, and will be incarcerated for the rest of his life. Be content.

An outcome like that won't make anyone feel better, but none of the primitive acts of "righteous vengeance" mentioned above will either. Whoever heard of a lynch mob saying, "Well, I feel a whole lot better now!"?

[Tufty]

In all probability he'll be deemed insane, and will be incarcerated for the rest of his life. Be content.

Of course he'll be incarcereted for the rest of his life...at the expense of the taxpayer. No, I still say the 9mm round would be the best and cheaper solution.

[crazy_grrluk]

how about tweezers.... bit by bit on his balls... smirks

[mkemse]

how about tweezers.... bit by bit on his balls... smirks

No, way to kind

[MMI]

The taxpayer won't notice the expense. If the Austrians choose to imprison their criminals rather than murder them, then that is their choice: the civilised choice.

If a man is insane, it is inhuman to punish him as if he were sane. I admit we don't know whether he is or not yet, but that is part of his defence and we should not prejudge.

The insane are not simply to be liquidated when they can be looked after. Hitler tried that solution, and nobody thought he had hit on the right idea, did they?

[Thorne]

The taxpayer won't notice the expense. If the Austrians choose to imprison their criminals rather than murder them, then that is their choice: the civilised choice.
It's amazing how many people say that it's civilized simply because it agrees with their own beliefs.


If a man is insane, it is inhuman to punish him as if he were sane. I admit we don't know whether he is or not yet, but that is part of his defence and we should not prejudge.
I would find it difficult to believe that an insane person could plan, execute and conceal such an elaborate setup so well. And yet someone who would perpetrate this kind of abomination must, by definition, be insane!

No, the question for the prosecution, and for the people of Austria, is whether or not this creature knew he was doing something wrong. Clearly the answer must be yes, or he would not have tried to conceal it.


The insane are not simply to be liquidated when they can be looked after. Hitler tried that solution, and nobody thought he had hit on the right idea, did they?
If the Nazi's had confined their killings to just the insane it's doubtful that the rest of the world would have gotten too excited about it. And for some forms of insanity I would agree, treatment and understanding are more "humane" than simple execution. But there are some people who, though perhaps clinically insane, are so dangerous, so evil, that they should not be allowed even the possibility of returning to society. Sometimes, just sometimes, that bullet through the brain is the best way to insure the safety of innocent people. All it would take would be for some "expert" to come out in a year or two and claim that the person is cured, and lo and behold he's back on the streets.

In this case, however, the man is not a threat to society in general. The only threat he represents is to his own family, and it's doubtful he will ever again have contact with them. A lifetime of solitary confinement would, in this case, be a more fit punishment, more suited to the crime. My only regret would be that he's not likely to last for 24 years in prison.

[MMI]

First, let me say, I am posting this in the spirit of a friendly discussion, and if I make extreme remarks, it is to emphasise a point rather than to cause offence. Mind you, facts are facts regardless of whom they offend.


1. Death Penalty is Uncivilised.

There are so many reasons why the death penalty should be regarded as uncivilised. Roughly two out of every three countries in the world agree that the death penalty should be abolished worldwide. These countries include most of the European ones (including Austria, of course), Canada and Mexico, Australia, and NZ - all of which can creditably be regarded as among the most civilised nations in the world, and whose criminal justice systems have delevoped to a reasonably high level of sophistication.

Countries which haven't include among their number, Afghanistan, China, Yemen, North Korea and Zimbabwe. Many of these countries can claim to be civilised - Japan, for example - and to have developed legal systems. Most, however, are not the kind of place you'd want to get caught in for committing any crime ... Saudi Arabia or the Yemen, for example. So the balance in favour of "civilisation" tips heavily in favour of the abolitionists.

It is also interesting to note that, of the retentionist countires, just six of them account for more than 90% of the executions, with China being way out in front of them all, but with USA featuring in the list of 6 most bloodthirsty nations. A proud boast for a civilised nation! Especially when you look at which the other ones are.

Even USA'a quasi-colony in Africa - Liberia - has abolished it.

Other reasons why it's uncivilised? It's random. If you're convicted of a capital crime, you may or may not be executed. It costs more (this is surprising at first, but it's cheaper to imprison a person for life than to go through all the legal processes necessary to confirm and carry out an execution - when you consider legal costs in the highest appellate courts, you'll begin to understand). Poor criminals cannot afford good lawyers, which in an adversarial legal system is more important then proof of innocence. It's irreversible. About 10% of people sentenced to death in USA have been found innocent before sentence was carried out. Good for the appeal system (partyly why it's expensive) - but if that many had the good fortune to discover new evidence to prove their innocence, then how many innocent people were unlucky?

OK, there are many more reasons why the death penalty is regarded as uncivilised, but I think I've made my point. I'm sure many readers here will disagree, and I don't want to read reams and reams of rebutals.


2. Mad people cannot plan ahead.

Nonsense!


3. The test for insanity is not knowing what you are doing.

Seung-Hui Cho? Maybe you think he was sane.

Trying to conceal your actions, even if you know they are wrong, is not proof of sanity. Otherwise every disgraced politician is insane (Nixon, Carter?). Maybe I'll get no argument about that!

Fritzl says he knew what he did was wrong, but he couldn't help himself. A plea of insanity. I'm sure the Austrian courts will have appropriate tests that are a little bit more reliable than "Wußte er, was er tat?"


4. The World wouldn't have given a Toss if Hitler had confined his Final Solution to Liquidating the Insane.

I think there are many who would disagree.


5. Fit punishment.

Broadly, I agree, although I would point out that Fritzl was already a convicted sex offender, so he is a danger to all women still. He must be removed from society - in my opinion, forever.

[Thorne]

MMI,

I've been involved in this argument before, so I'm going to be brief and not get too involved again. As has been pointed out, this kind of argument is pointless as neither side is likely to be swayed by the arguments of the other. But to your points:
Item 1: Arguing the benefits of something simply because a majority of people, or in this case governments, agree with you is circular reasoning. Just remember: the majority isn't necessarily right, but they usually get their way. And using the argument of "civilized" behavior won't win any prizes, either. It hasn't been all that long, historically speaking, since "civilized" people found it perfectly acceptable to massacre native Americans, or to buy and sell slaves, or to view public hangings as family entertainment. The definition of "civilized" behavior changes with society.

Items 2 & 3: Insanity is a relative term. For every psychiatrist who claims a person is insane, there will be at least one who says he is NOT insane. For my money, if a person knows right from wrong and still does the wrong, he does not belong in a mental hospital but in a prison, at least. This is simplified, but I think you can get the idea.

Item 4: There were very few non-Jewish people in the world who were seriously disturbed by what Hitler was doing while it was happening! It was only after the fact that people screamed for punishment. And it more because of the numbers of people who were killed, and the horrid manner in which it happened, which disturbed people. If he'd instead only executed a relative handful of certified lunatics do you really think the rest of the world would have cared?

Item 5: There is only one absolutely certain way to insure that he will never again threaten another person. Civilized or not, moral or not, it is quite certain. There is no doubt of his guilt, no chance of a mistaken conviction. He did it, he was caught red-handed and he's admitted to it. Game, set and match. In this kind of case the only one's who benefit by a trial are the lawyers.

[MMI]

1. My point wasn't simply that the majority of countries supported abolition of the death penalty, but that it was the more "advanced" nations that tended to support abolition, and the more "backward" ones that didn't. I agree that not so long ago many countries used the death penalty like we use fines today, but most countries have moved beyond that now.

And just as majority approval doesn't make a thing right of itself, neither does historical precedent.


2/3. Insanity is hard to diagnose, and for that very reason the courts have to apply an objective test - to prevent the dispepnsation of justice from being hijacked by individual prejudices or by pressure groups.


4.
If [Hitler'd] instead only executed a relative handful of certified lunatics do you really think the rest of the world would have cared?

A "handful" - probably not. Systematic liquidation of 100,000 "insane" or "physically handicapped" and the sterilisation of 300,000 more? Then, yes. No-one would have gone to war over it, but they'd have ostracised him. The USA gave up sterilising people after they'd done it to only 30,000 people, so there's some evidence that it was seen as unacceptable practice back then.


5. I cannot dispute that death is the only certain way to prevent Fritzl from endangering others. But is absolute certainty absolutely necessary? For all practical purposes, spending the rest of his life behind bars or in a secure mental-health facility will have the same effect.

[fetishdj]

It is sometimes scary to realise how many people there were in both America and Britain who actively supported Hitler in the run up to WWII. However, I think many of these were unaware of the true extent of the 'final solution' as several sources I have seen indicated that even many staunch Nazis in Germany were unaware of the true nature of his plans. The build up was so subtle and quiet that many did not realise what was going on. It was only after the war (or possibly in the last stages) that much of this information was made available.

The main problem with the death penalty is the irreversible nature of it. All you can do is apologise to the family and that means shit when their son/brother/father etc is dead for a crime they did not commit. I am equally not convinced that prison is the answer - many criminals go into prison and come out just as willing and able to commit crimes. Its not an easy question to answer at all and I am not convinced it is so easily organised into a polarised 'right wing - string 'em up, liberal - lets talk to them and understand them' debate. I do wonder if some 'make the punishment fit the crime' system may be appropriate - rapists get castrated, thieves have to pay back all the money they stole or work as a slave for the person they stole from until it is repaid, murderers get killed - but that is certainly going too far for the larger crimes (i.e. I still disagree with the death penalty).

Insanity... many people think of gibbering, cackling madmen when they hear this term. This is an inaccurate stereotype. There are many forms of insanity where the patient can be incredibly highly functioning on an intellectual level. Sociopaths are the prime exampe. These are usually highly intelligent and can plan to a very high degree. Their 'insanity' manifests in a complete emotional isolation. They do not feel the same way as the majority and therefore see no moral or ethical problems with hurting or killing another person in order to achieve thier own selfish ends. Most serial killers are sociopaths. Many other psychological conditions can cause someone to commit a crime yet maintain their ability to function.

[Rubberwolf]

Now here is an interesting question. Although the original crime happened in 1984 (Although ideas like the statute of limitations do not apply, since this was a continuing crime), which was decidedly pre-internet, how long before the various governments (UK especially) start blaming the BDSM community for this. After all, the famous Girl in the Box case drew lots of links to the more violent bondage magazines and the purportrator was said to have been inspired by The Story of O. It is not too great a jump of the vote winning, middle England pleasing, polatician to assume that sites like this one are to blame for such sick b****s.

This, despite the fact that many violent sexual crimes were commited by religious fanatics or ideological zeolots.

[stripedangel]

Come on - calling for his blood makes you lot no better than he is.

In all probability he'll be deemed insane, and will be incarcerated for the rest of his life. Be content.

An outcome like that won't make anyone feel better, but none of the primitive acts of "righteous vengeance" mentioned above will either. Whoever heard of a lynch mob saying, "Well, I feel a whole lot better now!"?

I agree, really i do....but damn, isn't it nice to dream! i may never know of this guy's punishment, and i believe that karma (or whatever goes round comes round) will take care of this. i'm not a violent person and would never be able to actually cause harm to someone without feeling threatened to an extreme, but i also know what it's like to be on the receiving end of abuse. Two wrongs don't make a right, but imagining someone acutally having to pay (in an equal manner) for their crime...well, it's quite satisfying.

[MMI]

I agree, Rubberwolf: that is an interesting point.

There's another thread here where we take note of the fact that the House of Lords regards S/M acts as illegal, and we should all realise we are walking a thin line.

Speaking as Devil's Advocate for just a moment, what's the difference between a father imprisoning and abusing his daughter, and a Dom imprisoning his sub, and abusing her. I could suggest some answers, but I'll leave that to others (but, remember, you cannot confer legality upon an illegal act - such as false imprisonment, or incest - by consenting to it.)

[mkemse]

I agree, Rubberwolf: that is an interesting point.

There's another thread here where we take note of the fact that the House of Lords regards S/M acts as illegal, and we should all realise we are walking a thin line.

Speaking as Devil's Advocate for just a moment, what's the difference between a father imprisoning and abusing his daughter, and a Dom imprisoning his sub, and abusing her. I could suggest some answers, but I'll leave that to others (but, remember, you cannot confer legality upon an illegal act - such as false imprisonment, or incest - by consenting to it.)

Is it possible that the Father who imprisoned his daughter all those years may have done so while she was a minor at the beginning, but incest is ilegal anyway and depeding on the laws thier he has child molestation charges to face, in addition to incest, and false imprisonment

[MMI]

You're probably right, mkemse.

[MMI]

You're probably right, mkemse.

[Thorne]

I agree, Rubberwolf: that is an interesting point.

There's another thread here where we take note of the fact that the House of Lords regards S/M acts as illegal, and we should all realise we are walking a thin line.

Speaking as Devil's Advocate for just a moment, what's the difference between a father imprisoning and abusing his daughter, and a Dom imprisoning his sub, and abusing her. I could suggest some answers, but I'll leave that to others (but, remember, you cannot confer legality upon an illegal act - such as false imprisonment, or incest - by consenting to it.)

Incest I'll leave alone. Lot's of biological reasons for banning that, or at least procreation through incest. Though in this day and age, consensual incest, say between brother and sister or even between father and adult daughter (or mother and adult son) for purely recreational purposes maybe should be acceptable.

But as for a Dom/sub relationship, can it be false imprisonment if the sub consents? What if she had a safeword, affording her the option to terminate her "imprisonment" whenever she feels threatened? And is it abuse if the sub invites it? And what about sex while in bondage? Can that be considered rape, even though the sub consents to it?

No, I think we need to keep the government, and especially the church (any church) out of our bedrooms/dungeons. As long as a relationship is between two consenting adults, with no real harm to anyone, it's nobody else's business.

[mkemse]

No, I think we need to keep the government, and especially the church (any church) out of our bedrooms/dungeons. As long as a relationship is between two consenting adults, with no real harm to anyone, it's nobody else's business.

Thorne, could not agree with you more on this, it is no body's business between two consenting adults

[Alex Bragi]

[QUote=THorne]But as for a Dom/sub relationship, can it be false imprisonment if the sub consents? What if she had a safeword, affording her the option to terminate her "imprisonment" whenever she feels threatened? And is it abuse if the sub invites it? And what about sex while in bondage? Can that be considered rape, even though the sub consents to it? [/Quote}

I suppose when you think about it a submissive, and more specifically a female, possesses a hugely powerful weapon.

[Thorne]

I suppose when you think about it a submissive, and more specifically a female, possesses a hugely powerful weapon.

At least three that I know of.:blurp_ani And that doesn't include her mind, something which no self-respecting Dom should overlook!

[fetishdj]

But as for a Dom/sub relationship, can it be false imprisonment if the sub consents? What if she had a safeword, affording her the option to terminate her "imprisonment" whenever she feels threatened? And is it abuse if the sub invites it? And what about sex while in bondage? Can that be considered rape, even though the sub consents to it?


Legally it is impossible to consent to any action which is potentially harmful unless the action is being performed by a medical professional and you sign the correct consent forms (and the medical action in question is approved by the local ethics committee and the government bodies responsible for medical practise). So, yes, it would be considered rape/abuse/sexual assault (depending on the action) even if the Dom has signed and witnessed consent forms. Its a bad thing for us because it makes much of what we do illegal but the law is there for a good reason - to protect victims of domestic abuse.

[gagged_Louise]

The latest news seems to be that Josef F. got public subsidies for building the cellar where he was later to jail his children. He applied for money to "build an underground wartime shelter" (!) and received eq. of about 3.000 bucks. *rolls eyes*

[denuseri]

so we all might be able to get the government to fund any dungeon construction we may intend?,,well of course not for the same reasons as the aforementioned

[mkemse]

The latest news seems to be that Josef F. got public subsidies for building the cellar where he was later to jail his children. He applied for money to "build an underground wartime shelter" (!) and received eq. of about 3.000 bucks. *rolls eyes*

If the governemt there nly realy knew what was going on, lapse in judgement buy the Gov.?? Unless he was under suspition over the years for something, there is no way to know what he was plannig to do, inthis day and age a bomb shelter is not enough to cause suspition apparently. just suprised the governemnt would pay for it, but each country operates differentl

[denuseri]

now we just have to get goverment subsdidies for bondage gear ,,winks

[Venom]

Fritzl's oldest daughter has given an interview today; it will be broadcasted in Austrian television during this or the next week...

[mkemse]

It will be interesting to see what she says, how she looks ect

[fetishdj]

I think this subsidy thing may be something unique to Austria (for bomb shelters?). In Britain you are more likely to get funding if you claim it is for an outsider art project :)

[gagged_Louise]

Many of the student fraternities in this town (in Sweden) received subsidies in the fifties and sixties for cellar spaces that might work as bomb shelters (at the time their buildings were expanding overground too). Those areas, of course, have never been used as wartime shelters, but they've found use as cozy, smoky club rooms and student-run discos. ;)

[Rubberwolf]

"I agree, Rubberwolf: that is an interesting point.

There's another thread here where we take note of the fact that the House of Lords regards S/M acts as illegal, and we should all realise we are walking a thin line.

Speaking as Devil's Advocate for just a moment, what's the difference between a father imprisoning and abusing his daughter, and a Dom imprisoning his sub, and abusing her. I could suggest some answers, but I'll leave that to others (but, remember, you cannot confer legality upon an illegal act - such as false imprisonment, or incest - by consenting to it.)"

In responce to MMI last week.

Never the less, consent must be central to any defence of the BDSM lifestyle and it is this that separates us from such people who would pick a stranger off of the street and subject them to imprisonment and abuse.

There is no defence as far as incest goes. Even if consent is stated, it is very hard for a family member to argue, with a parental or similar, when they tell you that this is normal, or if you don't do this Mummy/Daddy will go to prison.

However, in BDSM, I feel that the house of lords do not actually understand the nature of the crime. Grissham, from CSI mused about one case where he reasoned, quite rightly, that the apparent sub/victim was actually controling the situation. This being the case, rather than giving consent, the sub is actually using the dom as a means of self abuse.

Damn this is too deep for this time of night. Time to go and ponder this over warm milk and cookies. :)

[mkemse]

"I agree, Rubberwolf: that is an interesting point.

There's another thread here where we take note of the fact that the House of Lords regards S/M acts as illegal, and we should all realise we are walking a thin line.

Speaking as Devil's Advocate for just a moment, what's the difference between a father imprisoning and abusing his daughter, and a Dom imprisoning his sub, and abusing her. I could suggest some answers, but I'll leave that to others (but, remember, you cannot confer legality upon an illegal act - such as false imprisonment, or incest - by consenting to it.)"

In responce to MMI last week.

Never the less, consent must be central to any defence of the BDSM lifestyle and it is this that separates us from such people who would pick a stranger off of the street and subject them to imprisonment and abuse.

There is no defence as far as incest goes. Even if consent is stated, it is very hard for a family member to argue, with a parental or similar, when they tell you that this is normal, or if you don't do this Mummy/Daddy will go to prison.

However, in BDSM, I feel that the house of lords do not actually understand the nature of the crime. Grissham, from CSI mused about one case where he reasoned, quite rightly, that the apparent sub/victim was actually controling the situation. This being the case, rather than giving consent, the sub is actually using the dom as a means of self abuse.

Damn this is too deep for this time of night. Time to go and ponder this over warm milk and cookies. :)

The differnce of her father and a Dom/sub is that a Dom/sub relationship will have a safe word, and a Dom will not keep his sub locked up in a sound proof room with no windows ect for 24 years, plus there is a fair chace he will not impregnate her, what her father did was incest a Dom/sub relationship usualy does not involve relatives

[fetishdj]

However, the legal issue of consent is still murky and it is impossible to consent to anything that will harm you apart from approved medical procedures. So, if a Dom and sub couple were brought under the radar of a police investigation they will rarely assume consent and treat it like any abuse/rape/GBH case depending on circumstances. You can have a contract signed and witnessed by several lawyers, the Queen and god himself and a judge would still not accept it as legally binding.

[mkemse]

However, the legal issue of consent is still murky and it is impossible to consent to anything that will harm you apart from approved medical procedures. So, if a Dom and sub couple were brought under the radar of a police investigation they will rarely assume consent and treat it like any abuse/rape/GBH case depending on circumstances. You can have a contract signed and witnessed by several lawyers, the Queen and god himself and a judge would still not accept it as legally binding.

True but never the less a Dom is probably not going to keep his sub in a windowless sound proof room for 24 years as happened here and they will have asafe word which i am sure her father never gave her

[fetishdj]

Oh yes, definitely. The trouble is that law courts will never listen to that as a defence.

[denuseri]

ahhh the grey area of consent,, dom sub even it can crose the line into criminal acts, i know first hand, as for father child,, ewww please, no question in my mind