The Five Levels of (BDSM) Leadership

[Mr.FixIt]

In another thread "Struggling With the Transition" (read it if you want all the gory details) my slave posted, with My permission, some difficulties that We have recently experienced, and mostly blamed herself for not being able to submit to Me. I've had an epiphany though, and I thank you all for your advice, opinions, and insight--you have been quite helpful, and things are only going to get better from here on out.

I recently attended an occupational leadership training meeting in which we watched a video presentation by renowned author and motivational speaker Stephen Covey about his book "The Five Levels of Leadership". And I realized that this could, and should apply, to the BDSM lifestyle. The book could easily be entitled "The Five Levels of BDSM Leadership" or "How to be a Dom". I don't know if Mr. Covey would appreciate this or not, but I want a portion of the royalties if this concept takes off!

According to Mr. Covey, the five levels of (BDSM) leadership are:

[U]Level 1
People (slaves/subs) follow you because they have to. Your influence will not extend beyond your job description. The longer you stay here, the higher the turnover, the lower the morale.

Level 2
People (slaves/subs) follow you because they want to. People will follow you beyond your stated authority. This allows work to be fun.

Level 3
People (slaves/subs) follow you because of what you have done for the organization (BDSM relationship). Problems are fixed with little effort because of momentum.

Level 4
People (slaves/subs) follow you because of what you have done for them. Long range growth occurs. You're developing leaders. Do what you can to achieve and stay on this level.

Level 5
People (slaves/subs) follow you because of who you are and what you represent. This is reserved for leaders who've spent years growing people (slaves/subs) ...Few make it; those who do are larger than life.

At work, with some of my subordinates I am a level three, with others a level 4, and with a select few I am a level 5 leader. The problem is that as a vanilla I was a level 5 husband. As a newly promoted (to put it into occupational terms) Top, I started out all over at level one. Before I could move on to level 2, I was promoted to Dom (also at level one). And just as I have always been promoted quickly in my professional life, I was quickly promoted to a level one Master.

Herein lays the problem: I assumed that because I had been a level five vanilla husband, I surely must automatically be a level five Top, Dom and Master, Right? Guess what I figured out--It don't work that way! When you are promoted, you start out all over at level one--or maybe level two?! So what I have learned with this interesting connection between professional leadership and the BDSM lifestyle is that I NOW HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO!!!!! But I think that this personal epiphany should probably rate me as a level two Master.

To really emphasize my point: Stephen Covey could have called his book "The Five Levels of Parenting". Dammit, I am really interested in the royalties from this one!!!!!!!!!!!!! Would it be plagiarism if I just added and changed a few words? There's no such thing as plagiarism police, right???!!! If there is such a thing as plagiarism police, surely they don't read this forum, right???

[~faerie~]

That makes sense to me. Great spin on the ideas.
Food for thought, definitely.

[Ozme52]

The problem with such things is that even within the original context, Covey is more observational than instructional. There is very little one can proactively do to actually move through the levels, it really depends on the corporate culture.

For example, in the fast food industry, it is the rare manager that gets past level 1 because the corporate doesn't care and may actually disuade anything else.

So trying to apply this to your personal relationship is a formula, imo, for disaster, because we're talking about emotions... and a personal relationship.

Further, if you consider it, there is no level 1, as described, in a bdsm relationship. Consent (level 2) is required. There is no level 3. The 'organization' IS the relationship (as you point out) and that, once again is about how you two interact... and ultimately, it's the MOST important perspective. So if it is appropriate within this hierarchy (which I am arguing against) then shouldn't it be the highest level? But, I dislike the analogy so I won't be defending the ordering of the levels.

Level 4 is interesting. I argue elsewhere that there are sub-centric D/s relationships and dom-centric D/s relationships. And that sub-centric orientations are deadly to the health of a D/s relationship. In fact, it's D/s turned upside down, where the sub actually ends up in control despite the 'trappings' that make it look like the dom is in control. If one agrees with my perspective, then level 4 has no place in a D/s relationship. And why would you want to develop the leadership (read domming) skills of your sub?

It's all about level 5. It's about what you bring, in terms of force of will and personality, to the relationship.

And sometimes that's just not enough.

In your situation, as described in part by you and in part by your sub, you have to realize she has the longer and more difficult road to travel. You can help her, but not by applying management and leadership prinicpals, that barely work in the workplace, to your relationship.

Be supportive when she falters but remind her that her value to you isn't diminished when she submits... it's increased. And take all that she says into consideration, as you would any valued subordinate in the workplace, before making your decision. And when it is appropriate, delegate those decisions she is more qualified to make to her, as you would a valued subordinate in the workplace. Those are the traits that make your subordinates, both in the workplace and at home, value and respect who you are and what you represent, (i.e., make you a level 5 manager/dom.)

The rest is Covey making hay for himself. LOL

I've been there and done that in the corporate world. Watched corporate culture simultaneously send their managers to Covey and others to learn to talk the talk while simultaneously suppressing any ability to walk the walk. Because those who can't lead at the upper levels lose control when those around them try.

It's always about who you are and what you represent.

[Warbaby1943]

To really emphasize my point: Stephen Covey could have called his book "The Five Levels of Parenting". Dammit, I am really interested in the royalties from this one!!!!!!!!!!!!! Would it be plagiarism if I just added and changed a few words? There's no such thing as plagiarism police, right???!!! If there is such a thing as plagiarism police, surely they don't read this forum, right???I think you made very valid points and possibly really hit the nail on the head. However I wouldn't count on the last few statements you made which I quote above. LOL

[Euryleia]

I think that your ah-ha moment about having to work your way up to 'level 5' is a good one and one that is too often ignored by new Dom/mes. Just because you have a sub to spank or tie up, does not automatically confer on you mastery.

I believe that you don’t need to focus entirely on leadership. Instead, turn your attention to motivation. Oz is quite right that her transition will be more challenging. You can help her by providing the stick and carrot to keep her on the path and to make sure that the journey is rewarding for both of you.

Here are few things to bear in mind:

Motivating your sub starts with motivating yourself. You need to reflect on what you want. Somewhere I read that she came to you with the idea of D/s—have you sat down and figured out what all of it means to you? Do so. Once you know yourself, you can then move forward with greater confidence.

Always work to align her needs with your needs. She wants to submit, that much is clear from the other thread. Now you need to make sure that you stay the one she wants to have dominate her. To do that, you need to ensure that pleasuring you becomes her pleasure.

The key to supporting the motivation of your sub is understanding what motivates her. This is where communication is essential—I generally use reading my girl’s journal to find out why she seeks submission. Also, having her fill out a hard limit questionaire will give you more ideas about her turn on/offs. (An example can be found here (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9385&highlight=hard+limits)) Use that knowledge to reward her in a way that leverages further submission from her. Make sure that punishments serve the same function--realize that spanking a masochist would not make a good sanction!

Recognize that supporting her journey of submission is a process, not a task. You can assign tasks to help her with aspects (obedience, for example) but it is the work of months (even years) to bind her heart and soul. Conversely, just because she finds one particular thing a challenge, doesn't mean that you should throw the baby out with the bath water. Find out what the blockage is and work on getting through--this is a journey of many, many steps.

Support her submission by being explicit and consistent. Clear rules and consistent follow through are essential. Don’t think you can rely on good intentions to carry you two along. She can't read your mind and she needs your guidance.

This forum is great because it gives us a chance to ask questions but I also think that it is vital that those on Top have more than just this. We all need someone with experience to discuss what is happening. I recommend finding Dom/mes you respect to mentor you. Asking for help, doesn't make you weak. In fact, it will make you (and your relationship) stronger.

Trust me, the Covey epiphany won’t be the last one you’ll have.

[denuseri]

so true so true, and well said, all these aspects above apply, we subs need lots of study too, but if half the Dom's/Dommes out there followed even half of these they would have some happy relationships, long term thinking and comunication are of course still key,

[alpha_Straye]

In another thread "Struggling With the Transition" (read it if you want all the gory details) my slave posted, with My permission, some difficulties that We have recently experienced, and mostly blamed herself for not being able to submit to Me. I've had an epiphany though, and I thank you all for your advice, opinions, and insight--you have been quite helpful, and things are only going to get better from here on out.

I recently attended an occupational leadership training meeting in which we watched a video presentation by renowned author and motivational speaker Stephen Covey about his book "The Five Levels of Leadership". And I realized that this could, and should apply, to the BDSM lifestyle. The book could easily be entitled "The Five Levels of BDSM Leadership" or "How to be a Dom". I don't know if Mr. Covey would appreciate this or not, but I want a portion of the royalties if this concept takes off!

According to Mr. Covey, the five levels of (BDSM) leadership are:

[U]Level 1
People (slaves/subs) follow you because they have to. Your influence will not extend beyond your job description. The longer you stay here, the higher the turnover, the lower the morale.

Level 2
People (slaves/subs) follow you because they want to. People will follow you beyond your stated authority. This allows work to be fun.

Level 3
People (slaves/subs) follow you because of what you have done for the organization (BDSM relationship). Problems are fixed with little effort because of momentum.

Level 4
People (slaves/subs) follow you because of what you have done for them. Long range growth occurs. You're developing leaders. Do what you can to achieve and stay on this level.

Level 5
People (slaves/subs) follow you because of who you are and what you represent. This is reserved for leaders who've spent years growing people (slaves/subs) ...Few make it; those who do are larger than life.

At work, with some of my subordinates I am a level three, with others a level 4, and with a select few I am a level 5 leader. The problem is that as a vanilla I was a level 5 husband. As a newly promoted (to put it into occupational terms) Top, I started out all over at level one. Before I could move on to level 2, I was promoted to Dom (also at level one). And just as I have always been promoted quickly in my professional life, I was quickly promoted to a level one Master.

Herein lays the problem: I assumed that because I had been a level five vanilla husband, I surely must automatically be a level five Top, Dom and Master, Right? Guess what I figured out--It don't work that way! When you are promoted, you start out all over at level one--or maybe level two?! So what I have learned with this interesting connection between professional leadership and the BDSM lifestyle is that I NOW HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO!!!!! But I think that this personal epiphany should probably rate me as a level two Master.

To really emphasize my point: Stephen Covey could have called his book "The Five Levels of Parenting". Dammit, I am really interested in the royalties from this one!!!!!!!!!!!!! Would it be plagiarism if I just added and changed a few words? There's no such thing as plagiarism police, right???!!! If there is such a thing as plagiarism police, surely they don't read this forum, right???

================================================== ==

Please Sir, actually instead of starting out at level one or two, i think in reality it's more like starting out as a level minus two because You were her vanilla Husband first. That means You now have all the old relationship to unteach her before she can begin to learn to trust in Your new Dominance and position in her life. she'll need to be taught that You wont crumble or slide back into the old ways and leave her stranded in her submission... or else she's going to struggle with giving it to You and be testing You all the time (consciously or subconsciously).

But seeing the task at hand is the first step to getting it done *smile*. Please Sir, best wishes to You both and im sure Your persistence will pay off.

[Tojo]

I dunno about this level business- this is a relationship between two people, not a corporate management rating system.


Herein lays the problem: I assumed that because I had been a level five vanilla husband, I surely must automatically be a level five Top, Dom and Master, Right? Guess what I figured out--It don't work that way!

Now that bit I agree with- being a Dom is a whole different kettle of fish. However, wanting to be a good Dom is a darn good first step.

[Mr.FixIt]

================================================== ==

Please Sir, actually instead of starting out at level one or two, i think in reality it's more like starting out as a level minus two because You were her vanilla Husband first. That means You now have all the old relationship to unteach her before she can begin to learn to trust in Your new Dominance and position in her life. she'll need to be taught that You wont crumble or slide back into the old ways and leave her stranded in her submission... or else she's going to struggle with giving it to You and be testing You all the time (consciously or subconsciously).

But seeing the task at hand is the first step to getting it done *smile*. Please Sir, best wishes to You both and im sure Your persistence will pay off.

Well said, and I thank you with much gratitude :wave: for your insight.

[Mr.FixIt]

I dunno about this level business- this is a relationship between two people, not a corporate management rating system.

Tojo, I've seen you around the threads, and I have a considerable amount of respect for the way in which you conduct yourself here--and I agree with most of what I've seen from you.

Please allow me to clarify. I am extremely successful in my current occupation, and I have been ever since my military service. I have always been dominant in every aspect of my life other than in my personal relationships, and I contribute my success to my natural dominance. But it's like I have always hung up my dominant hat when I get home from work, and I can't help but make the correlation between my dominance and success at work and my weaknesses and failures due to my submission at home.

Covey's concept of levels of leadership have helped me to understand more clearly how I am personally doing at work, and helped me to personally define my future courses of action to improve my own performance, and further helped me to have personal clarity in how I can improve the performance of those who report to me. Covey's concept is not a means of defining a "corporate management rating system", but rather, is a means of determining personal evaluation and consequently determining a means of personal improvement. No corporate management official is counseling me on what level of leadership I am on, It's an entirely introspective concept. If it works for me in my occupational leadership, why couldn't this introspective system work just as well at home? I just need to stop hanging up my Dom hat at the door when I get home and apply the lessons that I have learned through my personal successes and failures to this present matter!!!!! This is a problem that has plagued me since my first marriage, and is a problem that I have resolved to concur.

"History is for human self-knowledge. Knowing yourself means knowing, first, what it is to be a person; secondly, knowing what it is to be the kind of person you are; and thirdly, knowing what it is to be the person you are and nobody else is. Knowing yourself means knowing what you can do; and since nobody knows what they can do until they try, the only clue to what man can do is what man has done. The value of history, then, is that it teaches us what man has done and thus what man is." ~ R. G. Collingwood

[Tojo]

Anyone who agrees with everything I say needs to start looking for a good therapist IMO!

Poor choice of words, my "corporate management rating system"

My point is simply that a relationship is about feelings, not knowing things.

I've spent many years studying human behaviour, & how people relate to each other- it fascinates the heck out of me. I've had people talk to me about their marriages before I kissed my first girl.

One of the things that comes up time & time again, is that people tend to think too much, & feel too little.

A D/s relationship to me is more intense than a marriage. One of my favourite tools is to just stop & let her notice how she's feeling. That's primarily what D/s is to me- a meeting of the souls on a higher plane than otherwise obtainable. It's not about 'doing' but feeling.

There's no right or wrong in this, there's no rules- but for me personally, I believe that thinking gets in the way of feeling.

I say forget everything, think of nothing, & just be with your sub. Really be with her like you've never been with anyone. See what happens, & start with a clean slate.

[stripedangel]

Level 4 is interesting. I argue elsewhere that there are sub-centric D/s relationships and dom-centric D/s relationships. And that sub-centric orientations are deadly to the health of a D/s relationship. In fact, it's D/s turned upside down, where the sub actually ends up in control despite the 'trappings' that make it look like the dom is in control. If one agrees with my perspective, then level 4 has no place in a D/s relationship. And why would you want to develop the leadership (read domming) skills of your sub?

Understood, Oz. However, i do need leadership (domming) skills as well. i run a household. i am in charge of the kid, and the critters. Master oversees what i run. He gives me a list of what He wants done and i get it done...we get it done-me n my "crew" LOL. My parenting skills are better than they were a year ago (partly because of more experience) and i attribute some of that to how much attention i pay to my leadership skills, or Domming skills that i've learned over the last few years. i believe that there is a fine line between leading and following...or Domming and subbing.

But, then you can always say that there is a huge difference as well....believe me, i KNOW how big the difference is.

Thanks, you've given much insight to me on both sides of the issue! Master may absorb some of it as well (gonna get it for that one, i'm sure). i really enjoy a friendly debate, when folks don't get all pissy, and you're good at that! LOL