A defining question [Archive]

Euryleia

06-01-2008, 01:32 PM

When I think about defining Truth, I think of the parable about the six blind men who were asked to determine what an elephant looked like by feeling different parts of the elephant's body.

The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe.

A wise man explains that all of them are right; the elephant has all the features mentioned. They 'see' it differently because each of them could only touch a part of the animal.

So, my short answer is that truth can be stated in different ways. There are no absolutes and no-one has a monopoly on what is true. The best you can hope for is to find your own truth and then work to live in harmony with everyone else's.

Just A Girl

06-01-2008, 01:43 PM

I second Euryleia

Truth is unique to the individual... it's your interpretation of your experiences in life. What may be true to you, may not be to another, but that shouldn't diminish it in anyway because it is personal.

cadence

06-01-2008, 01:56 PM

Truth is not deception, lies or self contradictory
If you agree with me then we deem this statement to be true.

That's all I have really. I would go into the whole logical relativism aspect of it, but it just makes me cranky, since I have to type out pages and can't condense it.

I'll wait for someone else to do it, maybe Tom he's good at it!!

Merle

06-01-2008, 02:13 PM

Oh, gods the papers I wrote on this. I think I still have my 128 page thesis somewhere around. I could email it to you.....

Mostly, I think truth is just the idea agreed by the majority at a given time. (And the general majority agrees that 'truth' is a fact that has been verified,websters) The 'truth' is part of your perspective, your side of the issue, and so 'truth' is a flexible human notion that will be what it will be.

...That sounded better in my head. And made sense too. Really.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tell all the truth but tell it slant,
Success in circuit lies,
Too bright for our infirm delight
The truth's superb surprise;

As lightning to the children eased
With explanation kind,
The truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind

ObjectivistActivist

06-01-2008, 03:44 PM

So, my short answer is that truth can be stated in different ways.

If this was true then Truth wouldn't be called Truth, it would be called opinion. Opinion that doesn't adhere to reality is delusion, and delusion is false, not true. This is, of course, contingent upon whether or not you are speaking from a perspective consistent with this part of your statement:

The best you can hope for is to find your own truth and then work to live in harmony with everyone else's.

which implies that truth exists only as a matter of perception, and not as an objective absolute. We'll leave aside (for the moment) the fact that that implication is false.

There are no absolutes and no-one has a monopoly on what is true.

That statement is self-contradicting, in that saying "there are [absolutely] no absolutes" is making an asbolutist statement, as is saying that "[absolutely] no-one has a monopoly on what is true."

On the subject of truth, the answer is very simply stated as:

Truth is an aspect of the identities of those things, concepts, ideas, statements, and actions which adhere to and exist within reality.

Since reality is an objective absolute, truth is that which describes it. For example (and assuming an unaltered specimen of the to-be-mentioned fruit), the statement, "the apple is neon blue" does not describe reality, thus it is false, whereas the statement "the apple is red" accurately describes the reality of the apple, and thus is true.

Truth is unique to the individual... it's your interpretation of your experiences in life. What may be true to you, may not be to another, but that shouldn't diminish it in anyway because it is personal.

This statement is a more clear and honest statement of Euryleia's attempt to turn reality into a fog of moment-to-moment perceptions where no knowledge is possible, where no future can be known, and where the past is unconnected with the present. Amongst other evasions. The bolded portion in particular has been a bromide for that particular ideology for decades at the least.

The underlined portion, if taken at face value, means:

If I honestly believe it is my right to shoot you in the face, steal your car and whatever you have in your pockets/purse, and never face a moment's consequences for it, my opinion is just as "right" as the person who instead honestly believes in hard work, dedication, and earning for themselves what they have instead of stealing from another at the point of a gun.

Just because someone happens to hold a belief doesn't mean that belief is right or that it holds any value, or even that it commands any shred of respect from those who can see that belief for the bald-faced rationalization, or flimsy screen against acknowledgement of reality, that it is.

tessa

06-01-2008, 04:04 PM

...implies that truth exists only as a matter of perception, and not as an objective absolute.

I responded to this part mainly because it is my firm belief that perspective (I shy away from using your term, to distance my meaning from the sensory-related definition 'perception' denotes) is what makes the world go around. But perspective is not truth, not in any form. It is a subjective evaluation at best. At worst, it's self-delusional propaganda.

Basing the definition of truth on an adherence to reality begs yet another question-

Which reality?

Euryleia

06-01-2008, 04:27 PM

<snip>
Since reality is an objective absolute, truth is that which describes it. For example (and assuming an unaltered specimen of the to-be-mentioned fruit), the statement, "the apple is neon blue" does not describe reality, thus it is false, whereas the statement "the apple is red" accurately describes the reality of the apple, and thus is true.

I have neither the time nor inclination to argue all your points. I will point out that apples come in more colors that just red so your statement of reality would be false to those enjoying the tartness of a Granny Smith.

I stand by my belief that truth is largely a matter of my reality.

ObjectivistActivist

06-01-2008, 04:27 PM

Since reality is objective, and to take a line from popular fiction:

There can be only one.

ObjectivistActivist

06-01-2008, 04:30 PM

I have neither the time nor inclination to argue all your points. I will point out that apples come in more colors that just red so your statement of reality would be false to those enjoying the tartness of a Granny Smith.

I stand by my belief that reality is largely a matter of my perspective.

Nice to know that everything ceases to exist as soon as there are no longer beings of higher consciousness extant in the universe. How frightening it must be to live in such a place. Fortunately, I don't.

Thrasher

06-01-2008, 08:02 PM

Guys.
This is fun.
This is the most fun I've had all day. Don't stop now.
Let's sing it together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_WRFJwGsbY

and, not to be outdone,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dbuFHF7GU8&feature=related

tessa

06-01-2008, 09:19 PM

Oh, I so appreciate good humor. And whether one believes Monty Python is the epitome, or the antithesis, of humor, one will giggle or guffaw no matter. :)

Since reality is objective, and to take a line from popular fiction:

There can be only one.

Nice to know that everything ceases to exist as soon as there are no longer beings of higher consciousness extant in the universe. How frightening it must be to live in such a place. Fortunately, I don't.

You purport only one reality, yet by your own admission here, you are fortunate not to live in the other one. Hmm.

I will point out that apples come in more colors that just red so your statement of reality would be false to those enjoying the tartness of a Granny Smith.
Sensible comparison to make, as life, like apples, is filled with sweet and tart...and rotten. Truth in the form of apples- what a hoot!

Despite my need for objectivism and singleness, I am becoming of a mind that truth, with perspective reasoning figuring in heavily, is only what we make it,

So's an argument. But let's not make that, please.

:wave:

ObjectivistActivist

06-01-2008, 09:48 PM

You purport only one reality, yet by your own admission here, you are fortunate not to live in the other one. Hmm.

A mindset, or perception, is not a reality. Clearly, some people's perceptions and mindsets deviate from reality to a ridiculous extent.

denuseri

06-01-2008, 10:59 PM

truth is the subjective ojectification of an idea and or observation rationalized as a conception within the context of the preception of an individual until that individual arrives at a consensus with other individuals over the veracity of whatever is addressed between them,
in other words truth alltough objective in and of itself within any given framework is dependent for its objects definition based on the subjective perspectives of those involved in its interpetation
its like trying to define what love or honor is,, we all know what is honor to each of us, yet defining one universal aplication or definition of honor that applies to all catagorical situations and or parameters is subjective to the conclusions of hypothetical situations,, imanueal kant addressess such definitions as eaither being universally applied truths or catagorically exclusive truths hypothetically applied to only one standard

so to be brief in laymans terms truth is what it is, and is universal in its definition to any one of us at a given time, yet we may argue as a matter of our own perspectives what each of us precieves that truth to be

TomOfSweden

06-02-2008, 12:54 AM

All insights and opinions sought.

Asked in all seriousness. Well, as serious as I can be...

What is truth?

Are there any absolutes encypted within the concept of truth?

When faced with cognitive dissonance, can truth be at all?

And even outside the realm of such existential crises, is truth to be found?

Again I ask-

What is truth?

---

I'd say it's down to definition, and all are equally valid, depending on what you need it for. It's easy to get them confused.

Scientific truth is just one of them and is basically just about following the rules of the scientific method. It's just a convention to make life a little easier to cope with.... or at all.

This truth is quite different from my favourite definition which is Kant's, which basically states that the truth of something is how the thing in itself is to itself. Which doesn't really say much or help us in the least. But I think it's the most honest one.

The interesting thing is of course, how can we figure this truth out. Kant himself thought truth is just a social agreement, which I don't agree with, because I don't think human perception is infinitely malleable. I do think human interpretation of the world is to a large extent hard-wired. Kant can be excused for living in a time before physical studies of the brain was even possible.

I think there is a truth but I don't think it's knowable. At best we can make an agreement on how we chose to interpret the world, which tries to minimize variance. Heidegger's phenomenology project was just this. Saussure did studies in linguistics and how we symbolize the world, making us realise that there is more layers than just our senses and our brain.... there's also how we formulate those thoughts into language. The capacity of the language puts a limit on how much truth can be conveyed. The bits sticking out of the form gets by necessity cut off/out.

Basically, Tessa. To answer your question we'd have to mention the entire history of philosophy, because at it's core, this is the one main question they've all been trying to answer. I think having read philosophy makes it much easier not to run into traps of simplification. There's a famous Adam Smith quote on economy which is equally true for philosophic theory of truth, and I'll paraphrase it.

Those who say their only following their own heart and chose to think for themselves, are invariably following an obsolete theory of truth.

We are all following one of these theories of truth that these dusty old dead men once formulated. It doesn't hurt to know which one it is. Because if you do, it's easy to find criticism against it. There are plenty of problems with all formulations of truth and how we know it, (known as the school of epistemology).

TomOfSweden

06-02-2008, 01:06 AM

BTW objectivist. The problem with the redness of apples in philosophy is known as "qualia".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

The truth of colour is that it is light particles bouncing off surfaces and reaching our retina. This can be measured. But we're decades, (if we ever can) away from working out how the mind evaluates/experiences this. So if apples is red or not, can be contested in certain definitions of truth.

edit: I'm actually leaning toward that experiences, (like colour) can be measured objectively as you claim, it's just that it's quite possible that we will not be able to translate the achieved measurement to anything meaningful when we interpret it. But the important thing is that we'll be able to compare threshold values scientifically. So even if we won't ever understand how red an apple is to other people, we still can compare the level to different people, which is a huge leap in understanding subjective experiences.

I belong to the crowd who believe that we'll in the near future be able to build robots who experience the world and evaluate it, exactly like we do. Will love, think, reason and hope like we do. Anyhoo, this was a side note.

fetishdj

06-02-2008, 03:41 AM

A lot of modern physics is considering ideas that consider time, space and matter to be subject to perception. A simplified tenant being that humanity percieves time like a river - flowing from past to future - but the truth may actually be that time is more like a lake with all events occuring simultaneously ad humanity chooses which events to percieve.

The universe does not cease to exist if no one is there to observe it. It merely ceases to exist in the same way as it was percieved by that being. We build pictures of the universe inside our heads based on signals recieved by the senses. We all know that the apple is red/green because we were taught that the particular complex of sensory signals (reflected wavelengths of light) we receive when we look at the apple relate to that colour.

And to answer the question asked at the start: Surely everyone knows the answer to this. Truth is beauty and beauty is truth :)

TomOfSweden

06-02-2008, 08:17 AM

http://www.myspace.com/jonnyberliner

If you think science is boring and just want a quick and amusing summary, this guy is a good bet. He's got a song called "Heisenberg's uncertainty principle" which I was looking for, since it connects with the problems with scientific truth. But alas, it's not there. I assume it'll be posted soon since it's quite new. The song Dark Matter is hillarious and a good summery of dark matter, which is a very cutting edge and complicated field.

Just A Girl

06-02-2008, 08:50 AM

Just because someone happens to hold a belief doesn't mean that belief is right or that it holds any value, or even that it commands any shred of respect from those who can see that belief for the bald-faced rationalization, or flimsy screen against acknowledgement of reality, that it is.

I question whether or not you are adressing truth or fact here. Something does not need to be fact for it to be true.
Personally, I believe that if someone holds a belief then that belief is true, to them- respect doesn't come into it.
Although an athiest, I have no problem accepting that some people find truth in God, because to them, God is true- I may view these people as perhaps naive, and disagree with their truth, but I can still accept it as being true to them.
Unlike fact, truth is not a unifying definative...

We could of course go into the whole... well nothing can really be true because we cannot really be sure of reality etc etc... but I fear we would never end if we started that one...

TomOfSweden

06-02-2008, 10:01 AM

I question whether or not you are adressing truth or fact here. Something does not need to be fact for it to be true.

I'm not so sure about that. I think that in philosophy "fact" and a "true statement" are synonyms. "Fact" does have separate specific uses than "truth" in other fields.

In journalism, "fact" is generally referred to stuff that the majority of all scientists agree on. While "truth" is an elusive beast they try to reveal as best they can. But it's a pretty specific field.

Personally, I believe that if someone holds a belief then that belief is true, to them- respect doesn't come into it.
Although an athiest, I have no problem accepting that some people find truth in God, because to them, God is true- I may view these people as perhaps naive, and disagree with their truth, but I can still accept it as being true to them.

Now you're in trouble. I think you're mixing up concepts. Are you equating "belief in that something is true" with actual "truth"?

Let's for sake of argument say that we all share the same reality. If this is so, a Christian's truth of the reality of the universe cannot be true if the atheists theory of the universe is true. In the same way, when a Christian has faith, they are implying that all Buddhists are a bunch of dim witted dumb-asses that don't get it. They might fool themselves into believing that they aren't judgemental or chauvinistic. But if they have faith, there's no way of getting out of this mess without coming across as the huge chauvinist they are. .... and in the same way, since you are an atheist you by definition don't "accept it as being true to them". I'm sorry for the strong language, but I wanted to get my point across.

I understand what you're doing. You're trying to come across as a nice person who can see things from other peoples perspective and respect them. But you aren't and you don't. I think you're simply being dishonest now. But you might still be a nice person ;)

If you have faith in one definition of truth, you reject all the other ones, by necessity. That's what faith means.

A huge problem with religion and religious discussions is that when people talk about "God", it's usually used as an abstract term that covers a wide variety of concepts and manifestations. You might have a whole room of Christians agreeing on that they all love God and feel the holy ghost, while none of them are talking about that same thing. But even here it's deeply dishonest saying that you "accept it as being true to them" because you have no idea what they're talking about. It could be like that nunnery in the third century who said they could feel God's presence when they came from masturbation. No shit, so do I.

...and to end this ramble, I'd like to mention Dewey and the Pragmatists. It's a serious philosophical school based around the idea that we can't figure out what's true anyway, so who cares. They just assume that what ever is the most useful and works is true. This is arguably the most important philosophical school in USA today, so they shouldn't be dismissed. They are dismissively referred to "the Americans" but European philosophers. But I think that's a mistake. I think their importance will only increase in the future. But it won't help you to get an answer, Tessa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dewey

Just A Girl

06-02-2008, 10:17 AM

For a start... I'm not trying to come across as a nice person who can see things from other peoples perspectives and respect them... like I said, respect doesn't come into it :P

I make no claim to be able to see things from other peoples perspectives, if I could I would most probably agree with them, but I can't... so I don't... and I never said I respect those with religious beliefes :P

To your comment "If you have faith in one definition of truth, you reject all the other ones, by necessity. That's what faith means."

I completly agree with you... my faith in my definition of truth does force me to reject all other truths within what I see realitity is... but that doesn't mean I have to reject that it is true to that person.

I live life with the idea that we cannot truly prove anything, and so anything can be true to anyone... because I may not view reality the same way as someone else.

In a murderer's reality they believe it is true that killing is good... and whilst I don't share this truth, and certainly don't respect it... I have to acknowledge that unless I can somehow make this person see reality the way I do, their truth is still true to them.

Perhaps the problem with defining truth is that, in order to define it, we have to establish a truth... we cannot know what we percieve to be truth is true.

I'm loving "we can't figure out what's true anyway, so who cares." though... very accurate... well... to me anyway :)

denuseri

06-02-2008, 10:26 AM

Just A Girl

06-02-2008, 10:39 AM

without a consensus between us for the purposes of this discussion as to what is and is not considered truth all we are going to do is go in circles

perhaps a little excersise is in order?

could we agree that "truth" is the oposite of "false" ?

we could... but then we would have to establish what false is... and we'd be right back at square one :P

the wonders of philosophy eh?

denuseri

06-02-2008, 10:44 AM

LMAO, yep its a quandary all right,, oh wait now we have to define that

tessa

06-02-2008, 01:11 PM

its like trying to define what love or honor is,, we all know what is honor to each of us, yet defining one universal aplication or definition of honor that applies to all catagorical situations and or parameters is subjective to the conclusions of hypothetical situations
Back to unique and personal as a qualifier. This theme is becoming a constant throughout. Is that good or bad? Wait. Nevermind answering that. We would need another revolving door.

Kant himself thought truth is just a social agreement, which I don't agree with, because I don't think human perception is infinitely malleable. I do think human interpretation of the world is to a large extent hard-wired. Kant can be excused for living in a time before physical studies of the brain was even possible.
Hard-wired? Can I go that far in my evaluation of it all? I think not, but I can agree with the un-malleable part. Yeah, Kant got that one real wrong. Wonder if brain studies would re-define his "truth"?

I think there is a truth but I don't think it's knowable.
Not what I wanted to hear. ~sigh~

Those who say their only following their own heart and chose to think for themselves, are invariably following an obsolete theory of truth.
So whose heart and mind does one look to? And wouldn't their theory be obsolete as well?

I think I'm missing that point of yours entirely. Sorry. :(

The truth of colour is that it is light particles bouncing off surfaces and reaching our retina. This can be measured. But we're decades, (if we ever can) away from working out how the mind evaluates/experiences this. So if apples is red or not, can be contested in certain definitions of truth.
Would this be part of a possible explanation as to why 10 different people who witness the very same crime will have 10 different and/or opposing accounts of said crime? How much of that is due to personal perspective, and how much does the workings of each individual's brain play into the differences in accounting?

ps. Nice side note. :)

And to answer the question asked at the start: Surely everyone knows the answer to this. Truth is beauty and beauty is truth :)
This really appeals to me on a certain level. Surprising.

If you have faith in one definition of truth, you reject all the other ones, by necessity. That's what faith means.
You have to reject all the other ones, or you simply do? Are you saying it's a prerequisite or a choice? I'm asking, as I'm not sure what your meaning may be.

It could be like that nunnery in the third century who said they could feel God's presence when they came from masturbation. No shit, so do I.
And I laugh and laugh and laugh. You can exude brilliance, Tommy.

Perhaps the problem with defining truth is that, in order to define it, we have to establish a truth... we cannot know what we percieve to be truth is true.
Exactly why I asked my initial question. Establishing truth when truth is unknown. Ok, my mind is on overload, so I'm gonna stop now.

This discussion is riveting! Thank you all for your contributions. :)

:wave:

Flaming_Redhead

06-02-2008, 01:44 PM

You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

tessa

06-02-2008, 06:15 PM

I'm settling on Clarence Darrow's truth-ful idea for the moment-

"Chase after the truth like all hell and you'll free yourself, even though you never touch its coattails."

TomOfSweden

06-03-2008, 12:11 AM

I live life with the idea that we cannot truly prove anything, and so anything can be true to anyone... because I may not view reality the same way as someone else.

I just want to point out here that there are no philosophers, (since the Sophists in ancient Greece) who have held this view to be correct.

I'm not sure if this is what you're doing, but this reminds me very much of what I hear in on-line philosophy discussions, and is a very common misunderstanding of the post-modern project. No matter how relative these philosophers, (Derrida, Foucault, Lacan, Zizek, Heidegger, Nietzsche, etc) think it all is, they all still believe that there is only one truth out there, no matter how you look at it. Philosophical relativism means asking the question, "what is this relative to" and rejecting the idea that anybody has an elevated position from where they can see everything clearly, (like Hegel and Marx thought they had). This is not the same thing as "anything can be true to anyone". I suspect that at its at its core its mostly just intellectual laziness. Philosophical relativism doesn't make anything easier to understand. It adds lots more layers of complexity.

Could it be that what you are proposing is simply Solipsism? Which no philosopher ever has held to be true.

In a murderer's reality they believe it is true that killing is good... and whilst I don't share this truth, and certainly don't respect it... I have to acknowledge that unless I can somehow make this person see reality the way I do, their truth is still true to them.

A person who is wrong but believes they are right, is still wrong. You know that their truth, is based on faulty premises. How can their truth be right even to them? Aren't you simply opening up the possibility that both of you could be wrong? Nothing wrong with that, but there's still only one truth.

Perhaps the problem with defining truth is that, in order to define it, we have to establish a truth... we cannot know what we percieve to be truth is true.

This I think is confusing. No matter what we perceive, there's still only one truth. There's plenty of pre-prepared systems to apply and then just walk through the steps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
That's what's so handy with philosophy. Somebody else has most often done all the heavy lifting for you.

I'm loving "we can't figure out what's true anyway, so who cares." though... very accurate... well... to me anyway :)

The goal with pragmatists was to go beyond these basic quandaries, without just picking one of the solutions and then glossing over it's problems. Like so many philosophers before them had done.

TomOfSweden

06-03-2008, 12:43 AM

So whose heart and mind does one look to? And wouldn't their theory be obsolete as well?

I think I'm missing that point of yours entirely. Sorry. :(

The key word was "only". Of course you need to turn to your heart. There's no better judge. But it doesn't hurt to know how the mind is "helping" the heart out.

Would this be part of a possible explanation as to why 10 different people who witness the very same crime will have 10 different and/or opposing accounts of said crime? How much of that is due to personal perspective, and how much does the workings of each individual's brain play into the differences in accounting?

ps. Nice side note. :)

There's a tonne of theories behind that one. I recommend reading Consciousness: A Very Short Introduction by Susan Blackmore.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Consciousness-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/0192805851/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212477957&sr=8-3
It's a very easy read and is fun. It runs through all modern theories of perception.

You have to reject all the other ones, or you simply do? Are you saying it's a prerequisite or a choice? I'm asking, as I'm not sure what your meaning may be.

*edit*
You have to.
*end of edit*

Ok, I'll be overly clear.

Let's take the solipsistic ride. Let's say the whole world changes compared to what you have faith in, even for other people. Let's say you're a Buddhist and you have a Christian friend. What happens when your friend dies? Remove solipsism and you have the same situation of just one truth being true.

Here's another one back to our world. Let's do the two doors example. You, (still a Buddhist) is standing next to the same Christian. Behind one of the doors is a leprechaun that gives everybody who passes through a big bag of gold. The other one just smells unpleasant and no gold. The Christian takes the door he has faith is the right one. He gets the leprechaun and the gold. When its your turn to pick, do you do the random choice, or do you go with the same door?

My point with the two examples is that when you assert that you know something, you also assert that everybody else that has a contrary view is wrong. If you claim that they can also be right "in their way", all you've done is asserted that you in fact don't know. You just think it is likely. It's totally fair to say, "this is what I think/hope is right, but I may be wrong". But this isn't "knowing what is true" aka faith. It's simply narrowing down the alternatives.

There's an extremely fun quote from an early female logician who's name escapes me. She said in a letter to Bertrand Russel, "I've recently taken up solipsism. I don't understand why more doesn't do it". The point being that, if you're a solipsist, everybody else that doesn't agree with you, you know are always wrong, so it doesn't really matter if they're solipsist too. I don't think she was really a solipsist.

Just A Girl

06-03-2008, 08:17 AM

I'm out... cos I can't stand debates where people choose to pick and choose at statments therefore removing all meaning from them...
I dislike being told what i'm saying, when i'm fully aware of what i'm saying, and that i must be wrong because a bunch of other philosophers don't agree with me.
If that's all your argument is based on... a majority vote... then it's a bit of a lame argument really...

Have fun... I'll be keeping an eye... it's pretty interesting reading everyone elses views.

:)

tessa

06-03-2008, 01:09 PM

"overly clear"...

I laugh because it's going to take me like 53 read-throughs to even begin to start comprehending all you've posted in your response to my queries. Your truth of "overly clear" and mine are clearly at opposite ends of cognition here.

I'm out...

Dang. You've made some fantastic comments. :(

MMI

06-03-2008, 04:24 PM

In life's wilderness,
Choked by the weeds of error -
Bloom of beauty: truth.

(Author not known)

All the philosophy's over my head, but I think it is commonly held that truth is "good" and, perhaps, beautiful.

Mr.FixIt

06-03-2008, 04:51 PM

truth=fact

Opinion is an antonym of fact. Synonyms of opinion are: point-of-view & perspective. Therefore: opinions, points of view, and perspectives cannot equal truth--mathematically speaking!

Furthermore: Opinions, (to include points of view, and perspectives), are like assholes, everyone has one (some have two!), and they all smell like shit! However, from a BDSM perspective, assholes can be fun and interesting--in my honest opinion!

Nice debate though!

Now, I have spanking to do, and that is the truth! Or is it?

:dunno::je:shithappe:tounge:

stripedangel

06-03-2008, 04:56 PM

Truth. wow.

if i tell the truth, that means to me that i have stated what i know, and not what i've made up. i've told what is true to me...may be what i've heard and am mistaken, but i'm telling what i know. To lie takes effort, and creativity. To lie, i must think of something other than the facts that i am aware of.

May already be here, but wiki says this:

The meaning of the word truth extends from honesty, good faith, and sincerity in general, to agreement with fact or reality in particular. The term has no single definition about which the majority of professional philosophers and scholars agree. Various theories of truth continue to be debated. There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth; how to define and identify truth; the roles that revealed and acquired knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective, relative, objective, or absolute.

i agree.

MMI

06-03-2008, 05:41 PM

Opinion isn't an antonym of truth. I'm sorry to contradict you, Mr Fixit, but there it is. False is the antonym, or lie.

That's my opinion, anyway, whether it's true or false.

Now, I'm off to watch some surfing ...

tessa

06-03-2008, 08:54 PM

In life's wilderness,
Choked by the weeds of error -
Bloom of beauty: truth.

(Author not known)

Unknown author said it as true as true is.

All the philosophy's over my head, but I think it is commonly held that truth is "good" and, perhaps, beautiful.
I'll agree with the good part. Not sure if I can go with beautiful, though. I've seen some ugly truth. If it was truth...

i've told what is true to me...
I think somewhere therein lies the truth.

Speaking of assholes-

--
Many might consider that a truth.

TomOfSweden

06-04-2008, 01:41 AM

I'm out... cos I can't stand debates where people choose to pick and choose at statments therefore removing all meaning from them...

I did? What statement did I ignore?

I dislike being told what i'm saying, when i'm fully aware of what i'm saying, and that i must be wrong because a bunch of other philosophers don't agree with me.

I didn't. I did suspected where your ideas came from, and refuted that source. If your source is another, then I was wrong.

If that's all your argument is based on... a majority vote... then it's a bit of a lame argument really...

erm.... what? In what way did I appeal to appeal to the majority?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_majority

Thrasher

06-04-2008, 06:27 AM

I really wish I could just sit here and watch this thread all day. err...to everybody doing the work of actually writing out the answers, I just want to say thanks for the work. I really want to write something substantial, but I'll be damned if I can think of anything to add that isn't discursive or trite.
Since there are obviously some minds here that can help me tackle this, I just want to ask this: If there "is no body," and hence "no mind/body problem" is it even approaching correct to say that a mind which still has substance and therefore a responsibility to figure out some kind of "truth" as a starting point for moral decision making, can ever approach truth as "what is," or "that which is"? Is a Caspar Hauser or boy raised by wolves and completely "uncultured" still able to discern truth, or is that just solipsism?

Thrasher

06-04-2008, 06:52 AM

Could it be that we just don't have enough or the right kind of "hard wires" to know a transcendent truth? (one that everyone will agree with)If we are all in the cave together, maybe we can just try to stay up to speed on and respectful of the scientists all around, digging for our little nuggets of ore?(if that is as good as it is ever going to get.)

tessa

06-04-2008, 09:19 AM

I really want to write something substantial, but I'll be damned if I can think of anything to add that isn't discursive or trite.

~looks over Thrasher's thoughts and queries~

If that's "discursive or trite", I'd be no doubt blown away by your substantial effort.

Seriously.

I'll add something personal here. I originally posed the question because I am seeking answers to my life's questions. Some here understand that, others, not so much. It doesn't matter as people can say what they want in any way they want. I can put on my wading boots any time I need to. :)

Many would say, "why the hell ask here??". Because "here" is one of the few places I feel comfortable in asking. Yes, the anonymity helps, but it's more about like-minds and such, despite the differences we obviously have. My other asking option involves those who are very...defined in their responses. While I can appreciate their input, I also appreciate the outside-the-box thinking to be had here.

Thank you for your input Thrasher. You've given me even more to consider. (and I mean that in a good way)

:wave:

gagged_Louise

06-04-2008, 10:00 AM

"To some Parisian intellectuals, the proposition "(p) is true" equals "Jacques Lacan knows that (p)"

(Lacan was a hip philosopher-psychiatrist with a devoted following, From Dan Sperber, "On Symbolism", a quite illumninating book)

denuseri

06-04-2008, 11:16 AM

mabey if you actually told us what that life question is we could be more consiece

Euryleia

06-04-2008, 02:13 PM

I was playing around on the web and I rediscovered Stephen Colbert's use of the word 'truthiness.' He used the term in his pilot for the 'Stephen Colbert Report' that airs on the Comedy Channel. He used the concept to mean the truth we want, in our gut, to exist, without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts. I'm not sure if this helps you, Tessa, answering your life's questions but it is pretty funny (and kind of scary).

Stephen Colbert on Truthiness (http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/videos.jhtml?videoId=24039)

Wikipedia on Truthiness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness)

tessa

06-04-2008, 08:48 PM

mabey if you actually told us what that life question is we could be more consiece
I'm not looking to limit the scope of responses in any way. Besides, even in the wading, one can be enlightened.

I'm not sure if this helps you, Tessa, answering your life's questions but it is pretty funny (and kind of scary).

It does help. ~hugs~ Thank you so much.

jaded_sub

06-07-2008, 07:57 AM

Thorne

06-07-2008, 08:52 AM

TomOfSweden

06-07-2008, 01:55 PM

IMO... all truth is subjective. It is strictly what a particular person interprets it to be. What is true to me, may be something very different to you or anyone else. Just as ones interpretation of cheating may be. (IE: is it cheating if it's on line?)

My thought is if it's what you believe to be true in your heart, that's all that matters. Then it is true. If someone else disagrees, it is their problem to cope with, not yours.

Here's a question. Let's take two people who both label themselves Christian and both believe God created the world. Christian 1 believes that whatever created the world is God no matter when or how, (pantheism) and Christian 2 and believes that God created the world right before the wheel was invented, (Creationism).

Both are Christian, both try to follow the example of Jesus in the Bible. Do they share the same faith?

Here's another question:

Two people look through a window.
1) Objective truth A can be seen.
2) Person one looks through the window and interprets objective truth A as a dog.
3) Person two looks through the window and interprets objective truth A as a pig.

What is A? Can it be both a pig and a dog at the same time?

You're reiterating what "just a girl" was saying that I refuted. It's politics, it's not a real opinion. Treating the abstract as the concrete doesn't give it meaning. It's stuff religious people in USA say, in order to wallpaper over the problems they have about being:
1) Religiously bigoted.
2) Having freedom of religion.

It doesn't make sense. You can't change what's really there by interpreting it differently. It's 100% bollocks.

Let's take your example. Cheating on-line. Let's take a couple. Mr and Mrs. Mrs has a slave on-line and loves showing her naked body in a web-cam. Mrs defines cheating as having them put their penis inside of her. Mr defines cheating as showing your naked body to someone.

The interesting thing here is the truth, not the definition of what can be considered cheating.

The truth is that one thing happened, and only one thing. It's both true that Mrs was and wasn't cheating at the same time. So much is subjective. But her performed acts weren't open to interpretation. If Mr had seen her he would without hesitation put her in one category, while Mrs would without hesitation put her in the other.

PS! I recommend anybody who wants a course in applied epistemology without any fancy terminology to see the film "Lars and the real girl".
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0805564/
It's absolutely hilarious, and very cleverly crafted.

tessa

06-07-2008, 09:27 PM

My thought is if it's what you believe to be true in your heart, that's all that matters. Then it is true. If someone else disagrees, it is their problem to cope with, not yours.
What if I'm the one disagreeing with my own self? Talk about an endless debate.

Truth changes, constantly, because truth is just what we decide.

So don't cling too tightly to the concept of "truth". Today's truth may be tomorrow's quaint superstition.
If truth, in some way, has to conform to reality, how does truth stay truth when we decide something else should be the reality? Can we decide such a thing?

Your comments here made me stop and think, so that was me thinking out loud more than anything. But any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

The interesting thing here is the truth, not the definition of what can be considered...(truth).

The truth is that one thing happened, and only one thing.
This thought you present here is a new perspective for me. I am trying to get beyond the acceptance of justified reasoning as truth, and this from you helps me trememdously.

PS! I recommend anybody who wants a course in applied epistemology without any fancy terminology to see the film "Lars and the real girl".
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0805564/
It's absolutely hilarious, and very cleverly crafted.
I must see this movie.

TomOfSweden

06-08-2008, 12:16 AM

I must see this movie.

Just so you know. It's one of those films best seen with your lover. It's very much a feel-good film.

Thorne

06-08-2008, 07:55 PM

If truth, in some way, has to conform to reality, how does truth stay truth when we decide something else should be the reality? Can we decide such a thing?
I never claimed that truth has to conform to reality. In fact, throughout history "truth" has quite often been in direct conflict with reality. Whenever science has come into conflict with those in control, truth is whatever those in control declare, and reality suffers.Because "truth" is only what we believe to be reality, not necessarily reality itself.

A good example of this is the current global warming debate. The reality is that the planet is growing warmer, slowly but surely. The "truth" which is being propagated by certain people is that it's all mankind's fault, that we are responsible. Yet evidence shows that the Earth has undergone other periods of warming and cooling which rival the current period, before man ever became "civilized" enough to have a significant effect. So how much of an effect are we really having? Nobody knows for sure, but those with an agenda, one way or the other, will tell you the "truth" as they declare it to be.

TomOfSweden

06-09-2008, 01:41 AM

Thorne. I suggest reading The Structure of Scientific Revolutions or just readers digest version in the wiki article below. I think you'll like it, because it sums up pretty much what I think you're trying to say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

It's a scathing critique of scientific truth being hammered into people, as if it is the only truth. And this book did create a revolution. Even though it wasn't written that long ago, it has already changed scientific terminology in its fundamentals.

Scientific truth changes every couple of weeks to fit the newest theories. The reality isn't changing, only the "truth". What does that tell us about scientific truth. I think this is the strength of science, and is why it is a superior method in finding the truth.

And here Richard Dawkins makes a case that we'll never know the truth, because we can't. We can only understand things that our brain is already hard-wired to accept.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1APOxsp1VFw

So basically, we probably couldn't understand reality, even if we had all the required education and had it read out to us.

This makes things a tad more complex. We have to believe in a truth that is a simplified model. ie, not true. The trick is to pick the one that is as much like reality as possible, and just pretend like its the truth, for our own mental well being. I mean, demanding it from ourselves to only accept he absolute truth would drive anybody bonkers. This explains the total mess the world is in. How do you have an argument where everybody involved that no matter the outcome everybody will know they all are wrong.

Thorne

06-09-2008, 02:47 PM

The trick is to pick the one that is as much like reality as possible, and just pretend like its the truth, for our own mental well being. I mean, demanding it from ourselves to only accept he absolute truth would drive anybody bonkers. This explains the total mess the world is in. How do you have an argument where everybody involved that no matter the outcome everybody will know they all are wrong.

I think that this is the real goal of science, as it has evolved. Very seldom do scientists declare something to be the absolute truth anymore. They now prefer to hedge their bets by saying something is true "to the best of our knowledge!" And our knowledge is, hopefully, still growing. So what is true today may not be quite so true tomorrow.

So we should try to keep away from declaring things to be absolutely true. I suppose we can leave that exercise to religion.

MMI

06-09-2008, 06:13 PM

... or politics

tessa

06-10-2008, 11:46 AM

This really is a fascinating discussion.

Nobody knows for sure, but those with an agenda, one way or the other, will tell you the "truth" as they declare it to be.
A-freakin'-men to that.

The trick is to pick the one that is as much like reality as possible, and just pretend like its the truth, for our own mental well being.
I think, therefore I am. I am sure horses are real (unless the one I ride is a hallucination). Unicorns are drawn to look a lot like real horses (except for that horn and all). Therefore I am quite content to think that unicorns are real.

Flawed logic makes me happy. :)

It won't set you free, but truth can help you decide to chew your own foot off to escape the bear trap.

"The truth is what we can't help but believe." That's my new "truth".

lstsl

07-27-2008, 01:11 PM

Since reality is an objective absolute, truth is that which describes it. For example (and assuming an unaltered specimen of the to-be-mentioned fruit), the statement, "the apple is neon blue" does not describe reality, thus it is false, whereas the statement "the apple is red" accurately describes the reality of the apple, and thus is true.

Well I would say that depends. Perhaps the particular apple in question IS neon blue. It could be owned by a po-mo artist, an undergrad in genetics, or possibly on a remote mountain top, as yet undiscovered by any except the mountain goats who enjoy Blue Apple pie on holidays:). The saying "All apples are neon blue" would be false because it does not accuratly describe reality. Saying "The red apple is neon blue" is self-contradictory and non-sensical and can be discarded.

Truth is just a your own personal perspective on the universe. To use the so called 'fruit statement' one could argue that if the apple is headed away from you at near light speed it will appear blue, whereas to somebody standing where the apple is approaching at near light speed the apple appears red (I may have that ass-backwards), so at the same time, the same apple may be accuratly described as both blue and red depending on the position of the observer.

lstsl

07-30-2008, 02:10 PM

Thorne

07-30-2008, 02:24 PM

Hi again, I would just like to clarify something in my previous statement. The phenomenon where an object appears to be blue when headed in the opposite direction of the observer when traveling at near light speed is called "blue shifting". It occurs because blue light travels faster than red light, and as the object is moving farther away, the blue light begins to outpace the red light by an even greater degree. Usually viewed as galaxys zoom about the universe, but the same should hold true for apples as well.

I think you have this reversed. Objects which are approaching the observer appear bluer, while those receding appear redder. And this is caused by frequency shifting, not by velocity. The speed of blue and red light in a vacuum are the same. As an object approaches, the light waves are compressed and the light seems blue, just as when a train approaches the sound waves are compressed and the pitch of the whistle is higher. With light receding from you, the frequencies are "stretched", causing the light to appear redder (red-shifting, in astronomy), just as the train whistle's pitch gets lower as it recedes.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect for a fairly simple explanation.

Meena

07-31-2008, 02:49 PM

What is truth?

In Vedas, (Atharvveda) in a chapter for political management (Vedas are spiritual books which deals with every aspect of life including science, physics, geology, mathematics, political science etc theology etc and Rigveda is considered to be the oldest scripture of the world)...I read about truth. It says the truth is that which informs the manager of a society about the actual conditions and problems and ways of progress towards the benefits of each and every individual of society in accordance with his individual liberty and his duties regarding the society. The truth is that which informs a citizen, the actual sense of right and wrong with respect to his abilities of rational faculty.

Truth is that which is backed by reason.
Almost similar ideas I read again in books of Ayn Rand, when she said, A is A!

I wonder but I understand, that no matters how old a book is, if it has got some reasonable explanation about its content, and if the reason is valid, it will itterate similar message. I find no difference between spiritual scriptures of Vedas and Atheistic views of Objectivism.