Polygomy issue

[denuseri]

couldnt help but notice the big state of Texas and its polygomy problems, especially when children are involed,, does anyone wish to put there two cents in as to wheather or not the children should have been returned to these people so soon, or where the investigation came from, etc etc???:)

[sidhewolf]

couldnt help but notice the big state of Texas and its polygomy problems, especially when children are involed,, does anyone wish to put there two cents in as to wheather or not the children should have been returned to these people so soon, or where the investigation came from, etc etc???:)

Personally I am not into Polygamy. That is imo too restrictive and unbalanced of a Style. BUT the PPL/Families in the latest news story were Living in that Style. Unfortunantly it's hard to Really Know what the Whole Truth is in this (or any) situation Really, with the Media being what it is and stacking the deck as it does.

I don't think Families should be disrupted, and/or children removed from their Homes, without pretty absolute proof that they are in danger where they are to begin with.

My opinion is that the Government and Social Services have absolutely too much Power in these things.

Who can possibly Know the Truth w/o Living there?

Respectfully~SibheWolf

[Thorne]

Personally I am not into Polygamy. That is imo too restrictive and unbalanced of a Style. BUT the PPL/Families in the latest news story were Living in that Style. Unfortunantly it's hard to Really Know what the Whole Truth is in this (or any) situation Really, with the Media being what it is and stacking the deck as it does.

I don't think Families should be disrupted, and/or children removed from their Homes, without pretty absolute proof that they are in danger where they are to begin with.

My opinion is that the Government and Social Services have absolutely too much Power in these things.

Who can possibly Know the Truth w/o Living there?

Respectfully~SibheWolf


It's my understanding (forgive me if I'm mistaken) that there was at least one pregnant 14 year old in that group. If so, that pretty much speaks to the truth, don't you think? And a DNA test should provide proof of who the father is.

In general, though, I agree that the government busybodies do wield too much power in similar cases. But then, in many of these religious communities, the leader tends to wield a hell of a lot more power. I often wonder how many of the people involved are truly there voluntarily, rather than being afraid to speak out against someone who controls their family.

[denuseri]

yeah i feel as though they have all been brainwashed or something , yet i know we arnt hearing the whole story from the media, which i ussually distrust becuz they just wanna sell air time< as for polygomy in and of itsself.......isnt it just the practice of having more than one wife??,, wouldnt a harem owning dom be a sort of poygimist lol,,

[Leigh]

There are so many things about this case that bother me...first these people were targeted because of the way they live...sorry that is so beyond wrong there is no way I would like the almighty government coming in and telling me I couldnt have a Master and a Sir it's none of their business what I do in my personal life, or anyone else's for that matter.
They used minors being pregnant as the reason for removing these kids..ok now I want them to go door to door to every house in the USA and remove every teenager that is under 18 and pregnant..to date they have no solid proof any abuse is going on and DSS jumped the gun before having the evidence they needed.
Most of the so called minors that were pregnant turned out to be adults...one of the ones reported as a teenager was 27 years old...someone didnt do their homework before the acted. This whole thing started based on an anonymous phone call that they have never been able to find the person..Sorry but I agree with the court and the kids should have never been removed.
In the state of NC...a girl can get married with parents permission at 14 if she is pregnant...16 without parents permission if she is pregnant..how is that any different than what is going on in Texas?
If the government were allowed to come in and tell us how we should live then you may as well just give up the idea of bdsm all together. As long as no one is being abused they should be left alone. If I remember correctly 5 children said they were being abused ok fine remove those children and leave the rest alone..that is like saying ok a sub says she is abused so they throw all known Doms in jail? do you see where I am heading with this?

[denuseri]

Leigh you bring a very interesting perspective, if certian groups of people are targeted, though our own bdsm comunity isnt congregated in any one location its still a possability,

i personally dont find the idea of polygomy in and of itself bad wrong etc, to me its much the same as a dom having a harem of subs, but i dont think children should be raised to questionable arranged marriges at such young ages,, not that that sort of thing wasnt the norm for many cultures throught history, quite the contrary, yet my own upbringing has instilled a sence of mistrust with such dealings,

[denuseri]

which may beg the question of thread drift about children raised into bdsm lifstlyes or brought in by the people who raised them at very early ages, allmost like chattel slavery ,, shudders i definity dont support that,,,

is there even a remote corelation to the group of poygimists arranged marrige structure,,?

[tessa]

I think this "upset" the Texas sect is experiencing has less to do with their polygamy and more to do with the fact that 13 and 14-year old girls (and the numbers were way more than just one) were being abused and used as baby-making machines. If this had been a group of consentual adults doing their thing, and not involving the children in their "doings", they would have been left alone to their polygamist ways. They've been going about it in Utah for decades and decades now without much trouble being brought their way. Of course, it helps when your group "owns" the law-making positions, as well as the police force. But that's another issue.

But then a few radicals went off (literally) and felt the need to involve minors in the business of multiple sex partners. And that will, rightly so, piss all sorts of people off, enough that an entire "community" was ripped apart at its foundations. And of course, again, it's the children that suffer. On top of what they already suffer.

I think the children are safe as long as there are no disillusioned "I am your god and you must obey me by sacrificing your child" kind of men around. But if any of those women who seek to be with men of that ilk find such a man, then the girl-children will be at risk once again.

I'm all for freedom of self-expression when it comes to sexuality, but not when it involves a child. And until a person is of a certain age, all grown up and capable of deciding for themselves, without threat and/or coercion (that can come later), about what is and isn't true for him/herself, back off and let them be.

[claire]

I think the primary issue for me is one of consent. The press stated that teen age girls were forced into marriages and that their husbands used physical punishment as discipline. Now some of us might enjoy such a situation, but none of these girls were asked for consent, if my understanding is correct. So we are talking about rape, assault, abuse, all reasons for removing the girl from the home. However, how those issues could be implied to put infants and children in immediate danger I don't know. And how this danger applied to teenage boys I don't know. I know that it was said by some that they were being taught to be abusers, but I also read that boys/ young men were often expelled from the community so that the older men could have multiple wives. So ultimately there may have been some teenage girls who were legitimately experiencing or in danger of abuse, but that certainly didn't give just cause for removing all of the children.

[Alex Bragi]

I saw a photograph, on the net, of one of these men with his arm around his child bride. It made me want to throw up.

These parents failed in their duty of care to their children. They're as guilty of child abuse as and anyone else who fails to care for and protect their children. I don't care how they try to veil it under the name of religion, it's is what it is--a haven for paedophiles.

[TomOfSweden]

...so basically nobody has a problem with the issue of Polygamy. Only the sexual abuse of minors?

And technically, wanting to have sex with a 14-year old is called hebophilia, and not paedophilia. I think they're radically different in degree. Because when somebody says paedophilia, what pops up in my head are newborn babies or cute little five year olds. As far as I know, no babies where abused for sex here. I don't think hebophilia is excusable either, but hebophilia I'm simply uncomfortable with, while paedophilia I think is mindblowingly outrageous.

[Ozme52]

It's my understanding (forgive me if I'm mistaken) that there was at least one pregnant 14 year old in that group. If so, that pretty much speaks to the truth, don't you think? And a DNA test should provide proof of who the father is.

In general, though, I agree that the government busybodies do wield too much power in similar cases. But then, in many of these religious communities, the leader tends to wield a hell of a lot more power. I often wonder how many of the people involved are truly there voluntarily, rather than being afraid to speak out against someone who controls their family.

That may well be 'propaganda' and even if not, may well be just a teenage pregnancy. Or it could be an adult male in power forcing his will on the innocent, but we may well never know.

Regardless, it's become pretty clear there has been abuse of power by the DA and Child Services. There courts have said so multiple times. No cause for taking the children. Now (or recently, I've been offline of late) Child Services says they understand the situation but must "investigate" further. Damn... if you or I ignored a court order they'd toss us in jail. These "social workers" clearly think they're above the law.

[Ozme52]

yeah i feel as though they have all been brainwashed or something , yet i know we arnt hearing the whole story from the media, which i ussually distrust becuz they just wanna sell air time< as for polygomy in and of itsself.......isnt it just the practice of having more than one wife??,, wouldnt a harem owning dom be a sort of poygimist lol,,

Only if he got licenses and married more than one. Otherwise he's just a dawg!!

I'd love being that dawg btw. :icon176:

[Ozme52]

They used minors being pregnant as the reason for removing these kids..ok now I want them to go door to door to every house in the USA and remove every teenager that is under 18 and pregnant..to date they have no solid proof any abuse is going on and DSS jumped the gun before having the evidence they needed.Worse, take all the kids in that household and all the kids of families who worship in the same church...

Most of the so called minors that were pregnant turned out to be adults...one of the ones reported as a teenager was 27 years old...someone didnt do their homework before the acted. This whole thing started based on an anonymous phone call that they have never been able to find the person..Sorry but I agree with the court and the kids should have never been removed.Agreed, they abused their power. ...and anonymous? I don't believe it for a moment. This was a theo-political action and the courts should punish the DA and his minions...

In the state of NC...a girl can get married with parents permission at 14 if she is pregnant...16 without parents permission if she is pregnant..how is that any different than what is going on in Texas?
If the government were allowed to come in and tell us how we should live then you may as well just give up the idea of bdsm all together. As long as no one is being abused they should be left alone. If I remember correctly 5 children said they were being abused ok fine remove those children and leave the rest alone..that is like saying ok a sub says she is abused so they throw all known Doms in jail? do you see where I am heading with this?

Right! and forget practicing any form of spiritualism other than in an established and "accepted" creed... and pretty soon, only some of those.

[sidhewolf]

It's my understanding (forgive me if I'm mistaken) that there was at least one pregnant 14 year old in that group. If so, that pretty much speaks to the truth, don't you think? And a DNA test should provide proof of who the father is.

In general, though, I agree that the government busybodies do wield too much power in similar cases. But then, in many of these religious communities, the leader tends to wield a hell of a lot more power. I often wonder how many of the people involved are truly there voluntarily, rather than being afraid to speak out against someone who controls their family.

Yes Sir, so we hear and read. But the pregnant 14 yo *could be* pregnant by 14, 15,16, yo too <shrugs>. How do we yet Know what the Truth of that Really is?

<nods> On the cult type Communities. Truly who Knows but those who Live there? Seems some of those who Live in this one are ok with it? Some perhaps not? Time will tell, it Always Always does. Also, if anyone involved wishes to "speak out", I think Now would be a good time.

Respectfully~SidheWolf

[Captain]

Imagine this. The Police and Child Services come into a prominent subdivision in your city and take all of the children away from their parents because there is an unsubstantiated, anonymous report of someone in the neighborhood being abused. This is basically what happened to the families in Texas. Logically, you would deal with the single case of abuse, not the entire subdivision.

[Alex Bragi]

Imagine this. The Police and Child Services come into a prominent subdivision in your city and take all of the children away from their parents because there is an unsubstantiated, anonymous report of someone in the neighborhood being abused. This is basically what happened to the families in Texas. Logically, you would deal with the single case of abuse, not the entire subdivision.

I understand what you're saying here, but it's not the same thing. There's a huge difference between a community--like most of us live in, and a (religious) commune which is what this case is all about.

[TomOfSweden]

Call me a commie, but doesn't the state have a responsibility to "brainwash" people into believing they have some kind of mastery of their own destiny and fill their heads with democratic ideals, so this kind of stuff doesn't happen? Force them to go to school and beat critical subjects into their heads, like science and critical thinking into their minds.

We have that system in Sweden and we have extremely few mindless religious robots of this kind.

[Clevernick]

That may well be 'propaganda' and even if not, may well be just a teenage pregnancy. Or it could be an adult male in power forcing his will on the innocent, but we may well never know.


I tend to agree -- There's a chance that the whole "child bride" thing was simply a teenage pregnancy (which occurs with startling frequency in all societies) being exploited for an excuse to send in the feds.

If we want to be left alone to practice our own lifestyle, we should stand up for others doing the same, so long as no children are harmed. (And because a 14-yr-old got pregnant is not proof that it was part of their lifestyle! 14-year-olds in YOUR community sometimes get pregnant too.)

If the polygamists call the bondage people perverts, and presume the worst of them, and we do the same for them, then we can all expect and deserve to be roundly persecuted by everyone else.

When they come to bust up the bdsm people, they'll of course find some underaged or ridiculously extreme example to hold up to the cameras, to remove all sympathy for the community. Standard practise.

[Thorne]

Not speaking from experience here, just some knowledge that I've picked up over the years. But it's my understanding that, in strict religious communities such as this one, everyone's activities and behavior are closely monitored by the leaders. It would be unlikely, though not impossible of course, that a young, girl would have the opportunity to have sexual relations with anyone without the leadership both knowing and approving. In fact, as I understand these things, they are most likely to be forced into a relationship with one of the leaders of the group, either through coercion or something akin to "brainwashing".

That's not to say that this was, indeed, the case here. I don't know, for sure, and I doubt anyone outside the community knows, either. And I don't believe that they should be subjected to attacks by the government without due process. But they should be required to submit to some oversight once the allegations of abuse have been made. And as I said in a previous comment, the DNA would tell the tale.

[stripedangel]

i know how this crooked state runs, when it comes to Child Protective Services (CPS). We have such a crazy system.

i've seen them leave children where they would be crawling around in dog feces, trash on the floor, no food to speak of (but nice car out front), looking like they needed a bath since last week, dirty diapers, and mother drinking a beer when they arrived....
They left a boy who was 7 in the home with his drunken stepfather, after multiple reports from neighbors had brought CPS to their door numerous times...the boy was beaten to death a week after the final visit. The boy had plenty of marks on his body, but "nothing that would show evidence of abuse" sorry. did they look in his eyes? Damn.

These children should not be returned to their homes until thier parents take parenting classes. i have no problem with teaching your values to your kids, but i do have a biiiig problem with teaching them that their bodies can and should be used in this manner.

The girls are used as baby machines and the boys are dumped off somewhere when they come of age. This was stated on a local talk radio show. WTF? So basically it's the old men who end up with these little girls and the boys are just extra weight. Might make more sense if they were actually marrying the boys to the girls instead...but not much. Sounds like a sick man running this troupe. And now they're returning these young boys to their homes, from BoysRanch, where they were placed about 2 months ago.

Here's a link so you can see what one woman had to say about her experiences as a polygamist family member...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/07/earlyshow/main3997462.shtml

Your daughter getting pregnant at 15 as a result of her choice to have sex is one thing, but this is wrong, just plain wrong.

[stripedangel]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/08/20080408polygamist08-on.html

http://www.outofpolygamy.com/

Don't care to just throw one source of information in, so here are a couple more.

[Kuskovian]

To all conserned:

It is my belief that the state has messed this whole matter up. Jumping the gun is understandable considering that children were involved; yet, a more cautious approach would perhaps have benifited those involved more than the current fiasco. They should be glad it wasn't me and my boys that raided the place, because I don't believe we would be as understanding or forgiving as the Texas authorities.

Right or wrong, they should reap what they have sown.