Expressing Love...Hmm What's That?

[J-Go]

I am in love with a woman who has an amazing handle on the English language, unlike me. Writing is something that comes from my heart but punctuation and spelling seem to have been excluded entirely from my DNA. Which leads me to wonder should I perhaps not write publicly because of this deficiency? Of course on further thought that indeed seems absurd, one must try to express themselves as honestly as possible and if that happens in bad writing, so be it. It’s not like the world is reading my blog anyway!

But what of other things in our life that must be expressed even though not perfectly like love. Love has been on my mind a great deal of late. There seems to be as many forms of love as there are species of ants. True love, real love, mature love, passionate love, stable love, deep love, expressed love and on an on and on. Love is used to describe ones feelings on baseball and ice cream as well as the deepest regions of our soul. But what is love? What makes it real? And how do we interact with each other with love in a world whose ability to love seems to rival my ability to punctuate? Puzzling indeed.

[butterflySlave4u]

I am in love with a woman who has an amazing handle on the English language, unlike me. Writing is something that comes from my heart but punctuation and spelling seem to have been excluded entirely from my DNA. Which leads me to wonder should I perhaps not write publicly because of this deficiency? Of course on further thought that indeed seems absurd, one must try to express themselves as honestly as possible and if that happens in bad writing, so be it. It’s not like the world is reading my blog anyway!

But what of other things in our life that must be expressed even though not perfectly like love. Love has been on my mind a great deal of late. There seems to be as many forms of love as there are species of ants. True love, real love, mature love, passionate love, stable love, deep love, expressed love and on an on and on. Love is used to describe ones feelings on baseball and ice cream as well as the deepest regions of our soul. But what is love? What makes it real? And how do we interact with each other with love in a world whose ability to love seems to rival my ability to punctuate? Puzzling indeed.

Listen, Mister...You have an AMAZING command of the language, even if YOU don't think so...

To write this way, is to invite conversation...to invoke thought...You do both :)

[blythe spirit]

Listen, Mister...You have an AMAZING command of the language, even if YOU don't think so...

To write this way, is to invite conversation...to invoke thought...You do both :)

I agree. But, butterfly, he states that "writing comes from my heart." So he knows he's a good writer. It's the spelling and punctuation that elude him. Thank Gawwwd for editors. hehehe

[Warbaby1943]

But what is the definition of love in this thread? I love beer but I'm not in love with beer. Do we use the term love too often and too easily anymore. I do hope my punctuation is correct. If not, I'm sure you can get the meaning.

[bellelapine]

Love is reaching in the darkness and know that someone who knows you, understands you, desires you is reaching back. Love is a choice, a gift, a feeling of falling, a heady feeling of too much wine. Love in everything and nothing as love is what you make of it. It's a rose waiting to bloom, a statue locked in stone, a pair of innocent eyes covered by a blindfold...love simply is.

[DowntownAmber]

butterfly: Agreed. Though I chide J occasionally on His grammar and punctuation, I am always engaged by our written banter. I'd rather converse with Him than endulge in well punctuated drivel.

blythespirit: Indeed. ALWAYS employ a decent editor! They're priceless!

Warbaby: "But what is love? What makes it real? And how do we interact with each other with love in a world whose ability to love seems to rival my ability to punctuate? Puzzling indeed." It's part of the question! ;) What do you think? I know I, for one, am going to have to give it some thought to put to words...

[blythe spirit]

Love is never having to say you're sorry. hehe

[thrall]

What is love??



Love is something different for everyone. What I love may be the very thing someone else hates. There are degrees of love. Where you may love many…..….you may only be “in love” with one……..


Love is what feeds our souls and lives. Love will drive you mad and feel as if it will take your life. Love is the air we breathe and love is what takes our breath away. Love is what gives us life. Love is the very thing that will allow us to give up our life. Love will fillet you open to bleed and love is what will allow you to put yourself on the block to be filleted. Love is pleasure beyond belief. Love is pain beyond bearing. Love brings things into crystal clear focus. Love will cloud our sight to near blindness. Love is where you are willing to give up everything for the chance at nothing. Love will make you weak and give you strength. Love will enrich our lives and ruin them.


Love is when you can forgive the shortcomings and mistakes of others.


Love is where fear is rendered mute. Love is where reason becomes unreasonable.


Love is when you can be exactly who and what you are without fear. Love is when you no longer care what the world thinks.


There is no right and there is no wrong. There is no should or shouldn’t. We love who we love…….


Love is what the two of you, Amber and J-go, feel for each other. Love is what allows both of you to show your affection in public. Love is what we all see when the two of you speak.


Love is something worth saving, it's precious. Love is something worth working and fighting for.


Love isn't perfect, its crazy.......but feels..... so very very right.


Love is real.......when you can ask the question......is this really.....real? Its real when every fiber of your being......shouts back.....YES!



I love both of you….big hugs
thrall

[fetishdj]

In this modern day of computers, you are no longer limited by what you wrote being there for all eternity. In writing that last sentence I made many, many mistakes in spelling and punctuation. I changed them before I pressed 'post'. It's easy to do. A few ideas for you:

- First of all, someone who loves you as much as you love them will not care about spelling or punctuation.
- Second, you are not Shakespeare. This is a good thing as it means that the little things you write for your lovers are not going to be analysed and deconstructed by scholars hundreds of years from now. I mean, the poor man wrote many of what he thought were 'throw away' sonnets for women he was trying to seduce only to have them later considered to be the greatest love poems ever written and therefore torn apart by future generations and used to bore school children.
- Good English use comes with practise. Lots of practise. Read and write as much as you can. Unlike some of my friends (who had English public school education) I learnt my grammar the hard way by reading lots of novels and learning from them then writing lots and having those who were taught the easy way scream at me and point out all the many ways in which I torture the poor, innocent apostrophe. This means that I have an instinctive feel for grammar but cannot tell you what anything is called or why...
- I suggest you also read 'Eats, shoots and leaves' by Lynn Truss. It is an accessible and fun book on grammar rules.
- Never trust the Microsoft Word grammar checker. It is evil and misguided. Well, it used to be anyway. It is feasible they may have improved it to follow rules of grammar that actually apply to English instead of Martian as the old ones did. Nevertheless, never take anything like that at face value - always check with a human who knows what they are talking about.
- And finally, meh. Editors get paid to check spelling and grammar. Why make their lives easier? :)

[AdrianaAurora]

There seems to be as many forms of love as there are species of ants.

You said it perfectly, so the question can only be whats love to each and every one of us?

There is pure and complete love you have for your child.

Love is forgiveness.

Love is when the need to hold him, to be in His arms is so strong that it blocks my reasonable thinking.
Love is the freedom to be myself, knowing he wont judge but accept me as I am.
Love is not feeling afraid.
Love is absolute commitment.
Love is absolute.
And at the end of the day, Love is picking up dirty socks. :)

[Warbaby1943]

What is love??



Love is something different for everyone. What I love may be the very thing someone else hates. There are degrees of love. Where you may love many…..….you may only be “in love” with one……..


Love is what feeds our souls and lives. Love will drive you mad and feel as if it will take your life. Love is the air we breathe and love is what takes our breath away. Love is what gives us life. Love is the very thing that will allow us to give up our life. Love will fillet you open to bleed and love is what will allow you to put yourself on the block to be filleted. Love is pleasure beyond belief. Love is pain beyond bearing. Love brings things into crystal clear focus. Love will cloud our sight to near blindness. Love is where you are willing to give up everything for the chance at nothing. Love will make you weak and give you strength. Love will enrich our lives and ruin them.


Love is when you can forgive the shortcomings and mistakes of others.


Love is where fear is rendered mute. Love is where reason becomes unreasonable.


Love is when you can be exactly who and what you are without fear. Love is when you no longer care what the world thinks.


There is no right and there is no wrong. There is no should or shouldn’t. We love who we love…….


Love is what the two of you, Amber and J-go, feel for each other. Love is what allows both of you to show your affection in public. Love is what we all see when the two of you speak.


Love is something worth saving, it's precious. Love is something worth working and fighting for.


Love isn't perfect, its crazy.......but feels..... so very very right.


Love is real.......when you can ask the question......is this really.....real? Its real when every fiber of your being......shouts back.....YES!



I love both of you….big hugs
thrall
It's like you took the words out of my mouth. LOL

Excellent, as usual, thrall.

[TomOfSweden]

Love for me is when we go from being indifferent to the world, to picking out one specific thing and rejecting the rest.

So this is what is expressed. You want to show the world, (literally or symbolically) that you value one person above the rest.

...and in turn. Feeling loved means that you feel that the source of the love, cares more about you than other people. But not necessarily all other people. But the more the better.

When the source of the love cares for everybody equally much, its gone full circle and we're back to indifference.

I see love as a negative act. Not negative in the sense that it is bad. But negative in the sense that it is about rejecting things rather than embracing them. We just perceive it as a positive act. But just look at the acts. What are they doing? To whom are they aimed? What is their point? How are they formed?

[gemmy]

IBut what is love? What makes it real? And how do we interact with each other with love in a world whose ability to love seems to rival my ability to punctuate? Puzzling indeed.

Darling Handsome man, you already well know the answer to these questions for yourself. You now just need to believe enough in it to make you strong, believe in it's power to help you walk the scalding, lava wrought path ahead of you - barefoot. You know what's on the other side but you cannot get there until you Decide to take the first crucial and death defying step.

And how do we interact with each other with love in a world whose ability to love seems to rival my ability to punctuate?

You both have a magic and articulate on levels most of us only hope to, ying and yang, balance of opposite is how ;) The compliment of each of your opposites to the other is the beauty within your relationship and it teaches all of us how very real and possible it all is.

[tessa]

... until you Decide ...


That's what my thought revolves around. Love being a decision made, a series of decisions actually- from the little everyday ones that are barely on the radar screen to the grand ones that get noticed by all who are a witness.

Love is a decision one makes when one decides to say, "Thank you so much for trying" instead of saying, "Why didn't you find a way to make it work, you moron!" (That was a personal thought there, in case anyone thinks I was aiming it at anyone here in particular)

Love is decided upon when the thought is "yes" instead of "I don't know." It's made easily or torturously. But no doubt about it, it is made. And in the making, it becomes real.

That's my thought anyway.

All the best.

:wave:

[J-Go]

That's what my thought revolves around. Love being a decision made, a series of decisions actually- from the little everyday ones that are barely on the radar screen to the grand ones that get noticed by all who are a witness.

Love is a decision one makes when one decides to say, "Thank you so much for trying" instead of saying, "Why didn't you find a way to make it work, you moron!" (That was a personal thought there, in case anyone thinks I was aiming it at anyone here in particular)

Love is decided upon when the thought is "yes" instead of "I don't know." It's made easily or torturously. But no doubt about it, it is made. And in the making, it becomes real.

That's my thought anyway.

All the best.

:wave:

Awsome! Thank you!

[tessa]

Awsome! Thank you!

Your thanks is generous. And even though it feels as if I'm overstepping to say so, you are quite welcome.

:wave:

[gemmy]

Love is decided upon when the thought is "yes" instead of "I don't know." It's made easily or torturously. But no doubt about it, it is made. And in the making, it becomes real.

That's my thought anyway.

All the best.[/COLOR]

:wave:

an entirely great post, thank you tessa

"no pain, no gain" *s*

"...it's in actually making the decision that is so very hard than the follow through to keep that decision..."

[DowntownAmber]

Love is a choice made in response to the highest values we hold for ourselves. It is not blind, it is the only truth that exists.

Tessa is exactly right. In the making of our decisions now, J, the love that we feel will become the concrete stuff of our lives. I adore you.

[TomOfSweden]

Love is a choice made in response to the highest values we hold for ourselves. It is not blind, it is the only truth that exists.

Tessa is exactly right. In the making of our decisions now, J, the love that we feel will become the concrete stuff of our lives. I adore you.

Is that really love? Isn't that the commitment? Love can come both before and after we've made the commitment. But I'm pretty convinced love won't allow itself to be tied down. We can kill it within us, but we can't really make it run where ever we want it to. It's a bit stubborn and annoying that way.

Who here hasen't at one point in your lives hated yourself for loving someone?

And seriously, highest values? Ok, sure, you value somebody very highly. But are those the highest values? Really. I bought my wife 20 long roses yesterday just because I was so much in love. What's so high and noble about that? I understand why we would like to see that as something high and noble, since that means that we label our own greed and self gratification as a noble deed.... and who wouldn't want that?

When I give my wife/slave flowers its not because I make her happy. I become happy making her happy. So I do it for myself. The logical error is removing yourself from the equation. Thinking that the goal is to make her happy. It isn't. It's only about making yourself happy and using your tools you have avaialble.

It's like "hey, I'm a rational being so my actions must be rational, and therefore my goal was to make her happy". But love isn't rational, so that screws up that line of reasoning. We just have to accept that human nature/instinct includes falling in love and making the object of our love happy. Human instinct is just another word for, what-ever-makes-us-happy.

[TomOfSweden]

I think there's a real danger in seeing love as something noble and giving. The danger is in that we might think we're entitled to something because we've shown our love. We might think that we're actually giving something that is valuable to the target. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I hear people saying all the time that pure love is a "selfless act". No, it isn't, its just that the person saying that has worked through half the rational but stopped before seeing where it ends.

Expressing love is like any self gratifying act. It's all about you.

Understanding that the target of our love doesn't owe us anything, and that it is only our own wish that our love is reciprocated is very healthy. It's quite understandable that we would want those who we love to feel compelled to return the expression of love. None of us wants our love to be wasted on people who doesn't appreciate or return it. But that really doesn't mean that that it still isn't just about you and what's going on in your own head. That fact that you love somebody doesn't necessarily mean they've gained anything they would value. And expressions of love they don't count as expressions of love, aren't for them, no matter how strongly you might feel they are.

I'm not devaluing love. I think its a beautiful and wonderful thing, or I wouldn't have bought my wife that large bouquet of flowers. I love it when my love is received by her and it makes her happy. But I'm very well aware that giving her the flowers was a selfish act on my part and it does not make me entitled to anything from her. I would be happy if she would feel the same way about me, (and I'm pretty convinced that she does, oooh my sweetest of snuggle muffins) but that in turn would only be about her. I wouldn't feel any pressure to to act in some special way.

We all know the feeling when we give somebody a gift they don't appreciate. They feel the need to act like they do, just to make us happy about the giving, ie expressing love.

Anyway, I felt the need to explain my earlier post some more. I wouldn't like to come across like some bitter old love-hating miser. Love is great and wonderful, but its all ultimately selfish.

Love you all, kisses and hugs. :rose::rose::bigkiss:;rose;

[TomOfSweden]

Love is basically the same evolutionary function that makes ducklings follow around their mother.

We may be smarter and we may understand why we do it, but we're essentially doing the exact same thing. Just because we're a species that is self-conscious doesn't mean we can change our nature and instincts. It just makes us conscious of them and can discuss it... like we're doing now.

[gemmy]

No, you're right Tom, if you're only loving her because it makes you happy but do you love her 'selflessly'? Doesn't sound like it - Sounds like you love her to make you happy. To love someone unconditionally is to truly love them. You cannot weigh someone else's value of love based on your own selfish way of loving.

Some people truly do love to the highest value. Yes, it is possible to love someone greater than your own needs and wants - that's the purest definition of love and the rarest form to be found.

Commitment to that kind of love comes only because of the love, to honour it and cherish it.

Of course we want it reciprocated and we want to feel their love in return but it doesn't always happen. If your wife didn't respond in the expected manner, would you still Continue to love her or would you love her because you had no choice, you just had to love her because of who she is - without reward, without reciprocation?

Some people in this life get to experience a truly selfless form of love, a love that stays simply because there is no other choice whether together or apart, a love that they give purely and without anything in return, a love that is rare, a love that is unconditional.

[DowntownAmber]

"Is that really love? Isn't that the commitment? Love can come both before and after we've made the commitment. But I'm pretty convinced love won't allow itself to be tied down. We can kill it within us, but we can't really make it run where ever we want it to. It's a bit stubborn and annoying that way."

I feel it is love, yes. I have spent an entire lifetime becoming me, building who I am and building the esteem I hold for myself. Upon meeting someone that responds to and is reflective of those same high values, a relationship and love grows. When I love, my commitment is to myself as much or more than it is to anyone else, and that commitment is to hold to my own values. I'm not sure how that ties love down? I'm not sure either how that causes it to run where I want it to? Really, I don't think I've ever tried to steer it someplace it isn't already going. That would rather defeart the purpose of it being a truth of any sort.

"Who here hasen't at one point in your lives hated yourself for loving someone?"

*raises hand* Um, I've been occasionally embarrassed over crushes based on physical attraction. Then I got to know the person and went, "sheesh, what was I thinking??" I have also occasionally been off base in my assessment of the qualities of the person I was falling for. It's never been fun, but to say I "hated" myself for loving or for staring to fall? Wow. Harsh. I can't see how you even could hate yourself for having love in your heart.

"And seriously, highest values? Ok, sure, you value somebody very highly. But are those the highest values? Really."

Tom, I think you misunderstood me. I said love was a choice made in response to the highest values we hold for ourselves. My love is based upon judgment of myself, what I want, MY highest values - when I find a person that represents that which I hold in esteem and respects me for doing so for myself, my response is the beginning of love. Toss in a little chemistry and now we're on our way to "in love."

"I bought my wife 20 long roses yesterday just because I was so much in love. What's so high and noble about that?"[i/]

The high value and the nobility is simply the love you hold and why. The roses are just a small symbol of that. I can't imagine you love your wife as an act of pity toward her, do you? It's not a selfless love, born from a lack of love for yourself and an attempt to compensate for that, is it? If I were to take a stab, I would say you could list off MULTIPLE fine qualities your wife possesses and the fact that you enjoy those qualities and why speak volumes about the type of person [i]you are. Your love for her is a response to your values, is a response to yourself. For someone with low values and little sense of self, sure, love may not be what a lot of people would consider "noble," but it is still a response by that person to what is most prevelant within them, thier highest values regardess of low their high may seem to the rest of the world.

"I understand why we would like to see that as something high and noble, since that means that we label our own greed and self gratification as a noble deed.... and who wouldn't want that?

When I give my wife/slave flowers its not because I make her happy. I become happy making her happy. So I do it for myself. The logical error is removing yourself from the equation. Thinking that the goal is to make her happy. It isn't. It's only about making yourself happy and using your tools you have avaialble."

We're right on the same page with each other, Tom. My post that spawned this was either misread or I failed to make myself clear enough.

"It's like "hey, I'm a rational being so my actions must be rational, and therefore my goal was to make her happy". But love isn't rational, so that screws up that line of reasoning. We just have to accept that human nature/instinct includes falling in love and making the object of our love happy. Human instinct is just another word for, what-ever-makes-us-happy."

I am going to disagree here. Just because we either can not or simply choose not to comprehend what causes us to choose the people and things we do, there is always a motivation behind our decisions, something that our brain rationalizes even though in practice our theory of the best course of action may crash and burn. Making ourselves happy seems pretty rational to me.

"I think there's a real danger in seeing love as something noble and giving. The danger is in that we might think we're entitled to something because we've shown our love. We might think that we're actually giving something that is valuable to the target. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment."

I see it as noble, but frankly it is taking as much as it ever is giving. By taking I mean, for me, the joy the feeling of loving gives me. When I am shown love, FABULOUS. Do I ever feel entitled? Hell no.

"I hear people saying all the time that pure love is a "selfless act". No, it isn't, its just that the person saying that has worked through half the rational but stopped before seeing where it ends.

Expressing love is like any self gratifying act. It's all about you.

Understanding that the target of our love doesn't owe us anything, and that it is only our own wish that our love is reciprocated is very healthy. It's quite understandable that we would want those who we love to feel compelled to return the expression of love. None of us wants our love to be wasted on people who doesn't appreciate or return it. But that really doesn't mean that that it still isn't just about you and what's going on in your own head. That fact that you love somebody doesn't necessarily mean they've gained anything they would value. And expressions of love they don't count as expressions of love, aren't for them, no matter how strongly you might feel they are.

I'm not devaluing love. I think its a beautiful and wonderful thing, or I wouldn't have bought my wife that large bouquet of flowers. I love it when my love is received by her and it makes her happy. But I'm very well aware that giving her the flowers was a selfish act on my part and it does not make me entitled to anything from her. I would be happy if she would feel the same way about me, (and I'm pretty convinced that she does, oooh my sweetest of snuggle muffins) but that in turn would only be about her. I wouldn't feel any pressure to to act in some special way.

We all know the feeling when we give somebody a gift they don't appreciate. They feel the need to act like they do, just to make us happy about the giving, ie expressing love.

Anyway, I felt the need to explain my earlier post some more. I wouldn't like to come across like some bitter old love-hating miser. Love is great and wonderful, but its all ultimately selfish.'

It's a good thing I consider selfishness a much underappreciated virtue. Thanks for the post, Tom.

[tessa]

Some people in this life get to experience a truly selfless form of love, a love that stays simply because there is no other choice whether together or apart, a love that they give purely and without anything in return, a love that is rare, a love that is unconditional.

I think this is a beautiful way to explain unconditional love. That said, and for myself, I don't think there is such a ideal as unconditional love. I don't believe humans are capable of such. People are capable of feeling indescribable emotions towards others, yes, but I think there are always conditions placed on such feelings. The person who gives purely and without the want of anything in return is indeed a rare soul, but even within that pure, seemingly unselfish giving, the one doing such is guaranteed to be getting something from it, or s/he wouldn't continue doing it.

Look at Mother Teresa as an example. I'm not Catholic, but I happen to think she was one of the best among us as an example of selflessness. That said, her own words tell us that everything she did was because of her selfish, "this feels good to me", better-do-it-or-else conditional reasoning.

Mother Teresa felt a "call within the call" several years into her nun-hood (or whatever it's called), and said- "I was to leave the convent and help the poor while living among them. It was an order. To fail would have been to break the faith."

Not many will argue against the statement that Mother Teresa was a saint and lived her life in ways that 99.999% of the population never could or ever will, and that her works were blessed and admirable and even noble (well, Tom might). But for all the pure goodness involved in her works, she did it conditionally. My thought is that even Mother Teresa didn't believe in unconditional love. If she had, she wouldn't have felt compelled to live as she did. She was motivated by the need to not fail her God. Because if she did, he would be displeased with her, and she wasn't having that. So what she practiced wasn't unconditional love, despite how it looked on the surface. Her conditions were that she was ordered by God to do such and not doing it would have been a grave sin. Sure, she lived her life never expecting any thank you's or recognition (still, she got them overabundantly), so many say what she did with her life happened because she loved all those souls unconditionally. Not so. She said it herself.

Now I used a religious figure as an example, so that may hamper the credibility of my argument for some. But the core of my post here is that we all do what we do- love included- because of an underlying motivation. Even in love we don't get away from the conditions. Even if the only motivator is the hope of what may one day be, it's still a selfish, conditional aspect applied to what we call love.

Even in it's most positvely radiant form, love is conditional. I don't happen to think that's a negative. If selfishness (or whatever term you wish to use) nurtures the feelings between two people and makes their lives, along with others around them, so much more fabulous because of the conditions they place therein, then yay and woohoo! That's a great big happy for those involved. And not a bad thing at all.

:wave:

[denuseri]

Well for me I guess my "signiture says it best" You can allways google for the rest of the poem. It has lots of wisdom hidden between its lines.

[DowntownAmber]

I think this is a beautiful way to explain unconditional love. That said, and for myself, I don't think there is such a ideal as unconditional love. I don't believe humans are capable of such. People are capable of feeling indescribable emotions towards others, yes, but I think there are always conditions placed on such feelings. The person who gives purely and without the want of anything in return is indeed a rare soul, but even within that pure, seemingly unselfish giving, the one doing such is guaranteed to be getting something from it, or s/he wouldn't continue doing it.

Look at Mother Teresa as an example. I'm not Catholic, but I happen to think she was one of the best among us as an example of selflessness. That said, her own words tell us that everything she did was because of her selfish, "this feels good to me", better-do-it-or-else conditional reasoning.

Mother Teresa felt a "call within the call" several years into her nun-hood (or whatever it's called), and said- "I was to leave the convent and help the poor while living among them. It was an order. To fail would have been to break the faith."

Not many will argue against the statement that Mother Teresa was a saint and lived her life in ways that 99.999% of the population never could or ever will, and that her works were blessed and admirable and even noble (well, Tom might). But for all the pure goodness involved in her works, she did it conditionally. My thought is that even Mother Teresa didn't believe in unconditional love. If she had, she wouldn't have felt compelled to live as she did. She was motivated by the need to not fail her God. Because if she did, he would be displeased with her, and she wasn't having that. So what she practiced wasn't unconditional love, despite how it looked on the surface. Her conditions were that she was ordered by God to do such and not doing it would have been a grave sin. Sure, she lived her life never expecting any thank you's or recognition (still, she got them overabundantly), so many say what she did with her life happened because she loved all those souls unconditionally. Not so. She said it herself.

Now I used a religious figure as an example, so that may hamper the credibility of my argument for some. But the core of my post here is that we all do what we do- love included- because of an underlying motivation. Even in love we don't get away from the conditions. Even if the only motivator is the hope of what may one day be, it's still a selfish, conditional aspect applied to what we call love.

Even in it's most positvely radiant form, love is conditional. I don't happen to think that's a negative. If selfishness (or whatever term you wish to use) nurtures the feelings between two people and makes their lives, along with others around them, so much more fabulous because of the conditions they place therein, then yay and woohoo! That's a great big happy for those involved. And not a bad thing at all.

:wave:

Exactly.

[gemmy]

hmmmm, I don't know, I still believe in it ;)

I will not let the naysayers dissuade me otherwise *plugs her ears and dances around* lalalalalala

hehe

[J-Go]

Again we have tried to label something I think un-labelable. It maters not if love is conditional or unconditional or even if it’s a possibility. What I wonder about, is how does it affect us to move in our life? I love my children no matter what (unconditionally if you will) however I don’t want them to spend the rest of their lives in my home. Mother Theresa loved working with the poor but that is a far cry from a committed love relationship. What is love to a couple, what does that cycle look like? We all know what falling in love is, or trusting in love or following love…really these all deal with the same issue romantic love, the process of falling in love. I’m interested in what keeps it going, what keeps people in love for a life time with each other?

[thrall]

Again we have tried to label something I think un-labelable. It maters not if love is conditional or unconditional or even if it’s a possibility. What I wonder about, is how does it affect us to move in our life? I love my children no matter what (unconditionally if you will) however I don’t want them to spend the rest of their lives in my home. Mother Theresa loved working with the poor but that is a far cry from a committed love relationship. What is love to a couple, what does that cycle look like? We all know what falling in love is, or trusting in love or following love…really these all deal with the same issue romantic love, the process of falling in love. I’m interested in what keeps it going, what keeps people in love for a life time with each other?


simple....you work at it!

all of the little simple things.......all of the big stuff.......

love matures......mellows.......smolders .......and flares up to a blaze.

[ashtonDs]

Originally posted by thrall:
love matures......mellows.......smolders .......and flares up to a blaze

I think what thrall said is important. If what you have is love, it is always going to be adapting, moving, growing, never standing still.

Trying to define something like that can get to be like trying to nail jello to the wall.

[tessa]

What I wonder about, is how does it affect us to move in our life? I love my children no matter what (unconditionally if you will) however I don’t want them to spend the rest of their lives in my home.
You want them to mature into responsible, independent adults, capable of making decisions in the present that will positively affect their future, right? If that's the case, I think it's what most parents want for their children. Being the excellent example to epitomize lends to the success of that parent-wish.


Mother Theresa loved working with the poor but that is a far cry from a committed love relationship.
On the surface, of course it's different. I mean, Mother Teresa wasn't sexually involved with her charity work. But make no mistake, she was consumed with her work. The nature of her chosen religion and work as a nun set that fact in stone. And she took her vows seriously. She devoted her entire adult life to her work. The level of her commitment was much deeper than most will ever realize, whatever type relationship. To the subject of her devotion, she never stopped trying, she never retreated when things got super tough and she never quit. Isn't that what we all, in many ways, dream of when giving attributes to the perfect mate?


What is love to a couple, what does that cycle look like? We all know what falling in love is, or trusting in love or following love…really these all deal with the same issue romantic love, the process of falling in love. I’m interested in what keeps it going, what keeps people in love for a life time with each other?
I said it before- every single day, making the decision to keep the idea of that romantic love alive and thriving is what will sustain you both through to the end. I believe that if you have that spark to begin with, if the chemistry is strong enough, and the pure enjoyment of each other is in place, then that love can go on and on and on, even when it seems impossible at times that it can continue to be. But it is decided upon daily, as you make your way through this life we live.

But that decision, J-Go, is yours alone to make. And I wish you and Amber nothing but the very best in the making of it.

[TomOfSweden]

Really, I don't think I've ever tried to steer it someplace it isn't already going. That would rather defeart the purpose of it being a truth of any sort.


This is interesting. Now we're narrowing down the definition of love. But yeah, I agree, but it is I think up for debate.



"Who here hasen't at one point in your lives hated yourself for loving someone?"

*raises hand* Um, I've been occasionally embarrassed over crushes based on physical attraction. Then I got to know the person and went, "sheesh, what was I thinking??" I have also occasionally been off base in my assessment of the qualities of the person I was falling for. It's never been fun, but to say I "hated" myself for loving or for staring to fall? Wow. Harsh. I can't see how you even could hate yourself for having love in your heart.


Ok, now it gets sticky with the terminology. Now we have to define various types of love. I was thinking about crushes. Isn't it love? If not, why not? I'm not really making a case here. I just think its interesting to think about?

I personally think love is a pretty uncomplicated affair which is basically defined by physical attractions and physical feedback, which in turn is interpreted as something it isn't. Don't forget that we're the story telling simians. We put everything that happens into a story, no matter if its true or not.

Here's an example. When we like somebody and they say something or otherwise communicate with us, our pupils dilate. When we don't like somebody and they communicate with us our pupils retract. Try it on a few people with blue eyes, its really apparent. Two people in love are stuck in a re-enforcing feedback loop of this. If our pupil dilation isn't matched, we will eventually lose interest. This is of-course not conscious. But its simple enough to measure.

But hate was a strong word. "Be annoyed about" was probably better.

Anyway. This begs the question, in what way is a committed long term love affair/marriage different from a fling? Is it the mutual bank account, shared apartment, the commitment or is it something deeper? I personally can't think of anything. The things I still love about my current wife is the exact same things I got stuck for when we first met. I love her more, because the things I suspected of her proved to be true. But I still suspected it when we first met or I wouldn't have married her.

For example, she said she "hates religion with a passion" and my assumption was that she had intellectual interests and liked thinking. This proved to be true. What I love about her isn't that she hates religion but that she thinks. I for one love religion... but not as a follower.




"And seriously, highest values? Ok, sure, you value somebody very highly. But are those the highest values? Really."

Tom, I think you misunderstood me. I said love was a choice made in response to the highest values we hold for ourselves. My love is based upon judgment of myself, what I want, MY highest values - when I find a person that represents that which I hold in esteem and respects me for doing so for myself, my response is the beginning of love. Toss in a little chemistry and now we're on our way to "in love."


Ok, now I get it. Thanks for explaining. I think we agree there. But could you fuck somebody with opinions you judge as stupid? I could and have.

But I only agree now. I didn't used to. This is a fairly new approach for me... Only since my current slave actually.



"I bought my wife 20 long roses yesterday just because I was so much in love. What's so high and noble about that?"[i/]

The high value and the nobility is simply the love you hold and why. The roses are just a small symbol of that. I can't imagine you love your wife as an act of pity toward her, do you? It's not a selfless love, born from a lack of love for yourself and an attempt to compensate for that, is it? If I were to take a stab, I would say you could list off MULTIPLE fine qualities your wife possesses and the fact that you enjoy those qualities and why speak volumes about the type of person [i]you are. Your love for her is a response to your values, is a response to yourself. For someone with low values and little sense of self, sure, love may not be what a lot of people would consider "noble," but it is still a response by that person to what is most prevelant within them, thier highest values regardess of low their high may seem to the rest of the world.


I don't understand what you mean with low values? But other wise I agree.




It's a good thing I consider selfishness a much underappreciated virtue. Thanks for the post, Tom.

No, problem. It's always nice when my opinionated rants are appreciated.

[TomOfSweden]

Please guys. Let's stop using Mother Theresa as a symbol of unconditional love. Her gloria is a bit tainted today. She siphoned off large sums of money that people gave to her to give to the poor, and gave it to the church to promote Catholicism. It was most of it, something like 60% or something, depending on how you count. But sure, she unselfishly spread Catholicism. If we think that's a good thing, then I guess its fair to polish her gloria a bit. But considering the popes stance on combating aids and so on.... it doesn't make Mother Theresa look so good. If you're going to scam people and keep your gloria intact, you might want to make sure the money goes to something positive. Like helping instead of killing people.

edit: but this is no criticism against the discussion as such. I'm totally with you Tessa, that if you believe in heaven it's all about brownie points to get in. Which hardly is a selfless act. The big question is why all Christians don't all follow her example. I mean, its pretty much a no brainer. Eternity is a much longer time than the short stint here. But maybe that's better to take in another thread.

[TomOfSweden]

My point about crushes was that the only difference IMHO about crushes and love is that a crush a love affair that doesn't go anywhere.

[tessa]

Please guys. Let's stop using Mother Theresa as a symbol of unconditional love.
Sorry my example didn't fit your given paradigm. Tom. The mention of anything to do with religion caused you to miss my point entirely, it seems. What I was pointing out had so little to do with Mother Teresa as a symbol and so much more to do with the ideas and questions about how love can be sustained and made real within a lifetime. I might have used a non-traditional approach to the discussion of a couple's love for each other, but my intent was only to address the issues within this thread.

I knew mentioning a religious figure would tend to create a certain mindset with some readers. Using Mother Teresa as an example of living and expressing love (again, which is what the thread is about) had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with thinking about it all with a different perspective. Referencing a religious figure doesn't mean I'm using religion as a standard for love and the expression of such. Not at all. I intentionally used an "outside the box" reference to answer a few questions that were specifically related to J-Go and Amber's situation (which is also what this thread is all about). That you didn't understand the way in which I used the Mother Teresa idea is of no consequence in regards to what I meant to convey to these two people about their situation. (And you're very right in saying that no such religious discussion about it belongs here in their thread.)

What I am hoping is that J-Go and Amber got something out of my nonconformist take on a discussion of living love, as they are processing quite a bit in their lives at the moment it seems. If not, then I failed in my attempt to assist them in my own small way.

(And Tom, since this is not a thread on anything religious (spiritual maybe, but not religious), I sent you a pm about your edit comments.)

All the best to you both in your search for your own happiness, J-Go and Amber, separately and together.

:wave:

[TomOfSweden]

Tessa, I totally agree that religion isn't a part of this thread. But I think you underestimated the depth of "the edit" answer.

The price we're willing to pay has to do with the pay-off. I know Catholics have a hazy definition of how many brownie points you need for heaven. It seems to shift depending how much power the church has. And now its easier than ever to get in. But Mother Theresa is old. I don't know how the point system was back in the day in Greece, but I doubt getting into heaven was a given.

This still isn't a religious discussion. This is a discussion about the source of the strength of Mother Theresa's love.

We could change the subject and talk about a zoo keeper and his animals. It's the same situation. I doubt they do it for the money, because its a total shit job as far as wages is concerned. I don't know this for a fact, but I'm convinced they love the animals. What's the pay off for the love they show the animals.

Cat-ladies? You know the type. They love cats and will do anything for them.

Anyhoo.... I'm sorry for having the religion discussion thing earlier. I sent you a grovelling letter Tessa. Love you.

[stripedangel]

i love animals and little children. i love ice cream and candy. i love a good steak with a baked potato. i love a good joke, a good time, a good buzz, and a good fuckin.

That is all just an expression to say that you really like or enjoy something...the word love, turned into the ultimate adverb. i hate anchovies...there's no real difference in the useage of the two words here...they both fit the same blank, it just depends on your preference.

i am hopelessly in love with my Master. Totally enamored and enfatuated with him. i am filled with veneration for my Owner, as he is so amazing and wonderful to me. i cherish being his bride and property. i adore his sweet, kind gentlemanly ways, and hold my loyalty to him in high regard. He is so beautiful in mind, body, and soul that i cannot control the obeisance that my own body shows in his presence.

Would that be true LOVE?

[DowntownAmber]

"Anyway. This begs the question, in what way is a committed long term love affair/marriage different from a fling? Is it the mutual bank account, shared apartment, the commitment or is it something deeper? I personally can't think of anything. The things I still love about my current wife is the exact same things I got stuck for when we first met. I love her more, because the things I suspected of her proved to be true. But I still suspected it when we first met or I wouldn't have married her."

I think there is some practicality to the difference between a fling and long term love. I had a "fling" with a man I was friends with, but had no desire to ever marry and certainly didn't fall in love with. We had respect for each other, good chemistry, and had fun together as friends. However, there was enough difference in our day to day lives and goals that we both knew neither of us would be content living the day to day with each other.

On the other hand, like you and your wife, I think the love there is simply a confirmation of the things you suspected, as you said. I think the comfort in confirmation does strengthen the bond and deepen the love. The more intimately you know someone, the more texture there is to the relationship.

"Ok, now I get it. Thanks for explaining. I think we agree there. But could you fuck somebody with opinions you judge as stupid? I could and have."

They could have a couple opinions I deem stupid or silly, but I would still have to like and respect them overall. This could be a personal thing, as I know several people that have no problem ignoring the personality and mind if the physicality of their partner is attractive. I am more attracted to personality initially, then I start evaluation of body and physical attributes. That's not to say I don't ever see people without ever talking to them and think, "hey, that person is attractive/sexy," because that's the order of presentation of which I receive my criteria for evaluation, but you get the larger point.

"I don't understand what you mean with low values? But other wise I agree."

Low value of self, or esteem might be another way to put it. A simple example would be a woman that claims love for a man that abuses her, but still puts a roof over her head and "supports" her. Somewhere in her mind, she believes she must deserve or, at the very least, has to put up with the abuse for the level of love and support she does receive. I would wager to say her value of herself is not especially high, and thus she has chosen a man reflective of that. (And I know this example is dangerous semantic water in which to swim, so I will go ahead and remark right now that, yes, I know of many situations where the abusive aspect of a partner's personality was not revealed until later, and we can get into that if y'all want but it's a bit of a stretch for this thread.)

[TomOfSweden]

Ok, DowntownAmber. Just to clarify. Can you have a deep love with somebody you first didn't have a fling with? In other words, is a marriage just a long drawn out fling?

[DowntownAmber]

Ok, DowntownAmber. Just to clarify. Can you have a deep love with somebody you first didn't have a fling with? In other words, is a marriage just a long drawn out fling?

In answer to the first part, yes, I think that's possible. In my case I have loved prior to any type of "fling," and I'm not talking about love for a pet or a relative or a steak and baked potato.

As for marriage being a long, drawn out fling? I hope there's at least some of the fling element to it... *glances at J* *weg*

[tessa]

Tessa, I totally agree that religion isn't a part of this thread. But I think you underestimated the depth of "the edit" answer.
I know I did. Perspective and all. :o


The price we're willing to pay has to do with the pay-off.
This is in part why I put you way up there at the top of people I admire most, Tom. Because you get this. You so get the truth of that. Love you more. ~lil' hug~


As for marriage being a long, drawn out fling? I hope there's at least some of the fling element to it... *glances at J* *weg*
Let's hope that element is there, for the sake of love's longevity.