I've heard that

[Jennifer-Nylon]

subs outnumber real Domms by 10:1?

I do a lot of research, it's what I do.:)

[BDSM_Tourguide]

... however, real subs are truly as difficult to find as real doms sometimes.

There does seem to be an interesting dichotomy when it comes to BDSM relationships. Anyone willing and proclaiming to be such can be a real submissive, but only those with practice, training and integrity can be real doms. Interesting, isn't it?

[veru_skjava]

*nods lots*

excellent point Sir, indeed...

I did not know I was a submissive, until my readings introduced me to the concepts.

When I think back, I know there were personality traits of Dominant men and women that I was very attracted too. Just because these people may not have either revealed their interests in or practice of BDSM, D/s does not make them less Dominant, does it?

My Master has been wonderful in helping me recognize how I have been a natural submissive all my life, nothing really has changed since I have begun to read, study, learn and grow in my slavery. Would it not be the same for Dominants?

I dunno, but it makes me wonder... :)

veru skjava

[BDSM_Tourguide]

... another thing I notcied is that dominants usually want an inexperienced submissive so they might shape them in the way they want them. Rather than finding an equally experienced submissive.

The interesting thing is that experienced submissives usually know what is to be expected and required of them and are more easily trainable than new ones are.

Although, findind a new and inexperienced submissive to twist and mold is also a nice experience, too.

[Jennifer-Nylon]

"twist and mold" *shiver*:)

[veru_skjava]

mmmmmm yessssss

twist and mold, how divine the life of a slave

*tingles*

giggles and winks


veru skjava:p

[Jennifer-Nylon]

Yes;)

A little twisting and molding goes a loooooong way!:)

[soleil]

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
... another thing I notcied is that dominants usually want an inexperienced submissive so they might shape them in the way they want them. Rather than finding an equally experienced submissive...

I've noticed this as well. Perhaps it has something to do with pushing limits?

I'd suggest inexperienced subs might have more limits to push (and offer more resistance) than experienced ones.

For some Dom/mes, that might be a big draw card.

Corruption of the innocent, 'n all that good stuff :D

[Finding_Fantasy]

As you and I have noticed as well, that it is hard to find a dedictaed, honest to god, turly committed new submissive. How many submissives have we talked to and they turned out to be...well...flaky? I am also leery of those who proclaim themselves being "experienced" for we have run into countless people who say they have all this experience but certainly don't show it.

I agree though, you don't have to be tained to be dominant, though if you are going to practice dominance of another induvidual, expect them to give over control of themselves to you, then they should know a little more than the desire to do so. I would be hesitant to subitt to a new dominant.

[LadyAmanda]

Actually, i think a new dom could do a lot of harm to someone if they just waded in and started flaying away. If a new dom didn't know their sub, and couldn't tell the difference between 'good' pain and bad pain ... I shudder to think of the damage they could do, physically and mentally. If I was a sub, I would want an experienced dom, or at least one who sounded like they were willing to start very slow, and grow with me.

On the other hand, a nice new sub isn't as likely to judge the dom, or say (verbally or in body language) Hmmm, my last dom ...

So ,what we all need is partially trained dom/mes and subs :)
If you have an experienced sub, I think it could be a very rewarding relationship, because, after all, they do know their place!

[Finding_Fantasy]

I agree, Amanda. Though I technically have naver had another Dominant besides my Master, when I first wandered into the lifestyle a little over 4 years ago, I met a Dominant who claimed to have a lot of experience.

At first he was charming and patient, but as time progressed I saw a different side of him. Thankfully, it was strictly online for me with him, though he did have 2 other real life submissives whom I had the pleasure of meeting.

Unfortunately, one of his submissives was very shy and didn't talk a whole lot when there were a lot of strangers around. He then ordered her that she had to say something to somebody every 5 minutes or he would punishe her severely. I didn't think that was right, but at the time I kept my mouth shut.

Eventually, I decided that he definitely wasn't the one for me. He was more interested in a harem that training (his own words) and that's not what I wanted. So, because I never could catch him online, I sent him an offline message stating basically that I couldn't continue withhim because I didn't feel that we were compatible etc. That I didn't think wearing his collar would be good for either of us...and so on.

Well that night he sought me out in the chat room and ridiculed me in public. Called me a cybering little whore and a wannabe. And a few other choice words as well. I tell you, I nearly left and never came back because of him, but people who I didn't even knew cared one iota about me told me not to leave and explained a few things abotu this guy to me. So I stayed. And I am glad that I did because that is the chatroom where I met my Master a few months later.

Anyway, what I guess I am trying to say is that sometimes it doesn't matter hwo experienced they are either. There are really good new Dominants and really bad experienced ones. Though I do have to agree that I would rather and experienced one than a new one... you just have to be careful what experienced one you take. It was a funny thing too. 2 days after I left him, so did his other 2 submissives after they saw how he hit the roof.

[AmandasSpankee]

Yes, you do have to be aware of the person you're talking to on-line. If a few of the things they say make you think 'hum, that was strange', then you want to be watchful of the conversations you have with them.

But, sometimes you can end up having a really great time with an on-line relationship. There is a certain 'freedom' that comes with an on-line life; the person at the other end of the chat can't judge you on your looks, or fashion-sense, or slow thought processes. You have a little more time to think about what you're going to say; you can write out a whole paragraph, and then decide it didn't quite hit the right note, and start again.

I think it could also be a very safe place for a new sub to start; with no physical contact, s/he would know that they can't be hurt too much. They can still be trained in lots of ways, like kneeling, forms of address to use, certain amount of bondage and punishment. If it works right, there's always the chance of meeting in real life.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

... have a look at: The Cyber Age is upon Us (BDSM Library post) (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120)

It's an article I wrote a few months ago, talking about how different BDSM is for those that only cyber and those that live it for real.

[georgey]

Originally posted by LadyAmanda
Actually, i think a new dom could do a lot of harm to someone if they just waded in and started flaying away. If a new dom didn't know their sub, and couldn't tell the difference between 'good' pain and bad pain ... I shudder to think of the damage they could do, physically and mentally.

Unfortunately... I have to say that is too true.

:(

[BDSM_Tourguide]

To quote MC Hammer: Let's all do the :bump:

[Dngnkeeper]

subs outnumber real Domms by 10:1?

I do a lot of research, it's what I do.:)

Interesting statistic that. As one who has spent many a day hosting the new comers orientation for a munch I don't know if it quite matches my reality. While I haven't kept accurate records I think its probably closer to 6:1. Many are attracted by what they read on the internet, most of the rest have read a book or two and a small percentage have had someone in their life introduce them in some way. Another thing that may skew the results is the fact that new Doms have an aversion to attending such things. ;)

On down the line about half of these new subs either don't show for a first meeting/interview or don't return after it. Of those who carry on a small but surprising number return to ask why their first experiences don't match up with what they read of have fantasized about. An interesting commentary on the mindset of society and its perceptions. Oh FF I know what you mean about the flakes. :eek:

[Locked Advantages]

I've had many friends who know I am interested in BDSM come up to me asking me to teach them how to be a dominant...and I keep telling them its not something that I can teach you....lol, then I hear alot tell me what you do for dom...and I just say thats not the real deal,sorry. In my mind its like, I am not experienced enough to tell anyone what to do....they either have it in them or they don't. It annoys me how many guys think being a submissive means that I am an easy lay which I am now,lol;)

[new master]

there was a group that is left out here. my wife and i have had dominant and submisive (respectfuly) traits but never knew it, hell i even thought i was submisive for a long time because of how polite and helpful i was it wasnt until my wife and i began to experiment i had to keep ordering her of how to dominate me then it clicked... i always had to be in control of everything i was involved in. even the things in life that cant b controled if somthing went wrong it was because i allowed it. so we are the life longbut unknown dom/ subs that learn the life together. very rewarding and safe in my humble opinion

[Sir Lanceloth]

it seems many is a bit frightened at the concept of submitting to a inexperienced master. It is true that an uncaring inexperienced master have a huge potential to hurt those that submit to him/her. But the same is true for the experienced uncaring master. Sometimes it seems that all the subbies want is experienced doms, and simply overlooks the inexperienced out of prejudices (they are potentially uncaring). This is in my oppinion not a fair way to portrait it. Sure it is most likely more fun with an experienced dom, but not necesarily more safe. when words like these:

Originally posted by LadyAmanda
Actually, i think a new dom could do a lot of harm to someone if they just waded in and started flaying away. If a new dom didn't know their sub, and couldn't tell the difference between 'good' pain and bad pain ... I shudder to think of the damage they could do, physically and mentally.

are readily agreed upon, and taken for allmost a general truth then i cant help feel sorry for all those new doms who are trying their best to learn the neccesary skills. And it also seems that domination is just what porn portraits it to be: a lot of torture, and exotic bondage/caging. This is not true, for me domination is more the smaller things. Not much fun in just punishment alone, and punishment doesnt have to be exotic and dangerous or requre a lot of skills. an example could be: sub forced to hold small ball on the wall with her/his nose for disobeying.

So instead of allways speaking badly of inexperienced doms (like little me) lets encourage them to learn and grow.

just a little side question: what is it with all that punishment fixation?

[MMark]

So instead of allways speaking badly of inexperienced doms (like little me) lets encourage them to learn and grow.

Uh huh. I second that here. And for all of you who do want to talk about the inexperienced ones among us... hmm... You were born experienced, I assume?
Yes, I can understand a sub being uncertain about being placed under the whip of an inexperienced Dom. On the same, note, however, what's she even doing there if she's not comfortable with him? Don't say a thing about inexperience, because we've all been there at one time or enough. Being uncaring and saying you have more experience than you really do, well, that's something totally different.

Respectfully,
Mark

[alura]

You host muches? How cool! I have been trying to figure out a way to find out if they have any here in Austin.


Interesting statistic that. As one who has spent many a day hosting the new comers orientation for a munch I don't know if it quite matches my reality. While I haven't kept accurate records I think its probably closer to 6:1.

And you were talking about the subs who come back who complain about it not meeting their expectations. To me a true sub is one who has none; they have a mind wide open to every possibility and only their true No Nos are the guardians of their gates. But then again, that's just me.

As I said earlier on, every D/s relationship is different so how can you have set expectations? Except, as I said, for those things you absolutely CANNOT or WILL NOT do bar none? And even then, you should leave yourself open to the eventual possibility of facing those fears....you never know WHAT you might find at the end of the road.

To me it would take and spontenaety and creativity out of the whole relationship to have expectations. Then again, I'm a writer, so what do *i* know? I'm just spouting my opinion. Feel free to smash me if you disagree.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

You host muches? How cool! I have been trying to figure out a way to find out if they have any here in Austin.

They do.

http://www.darkheart.com/usalist.html#Texas
http://www.io.com/~ambrosio/texas/austin.html

Also, go to any adult/fetish clothing or toy store and check the local alternative lifestyle papers and you'll probably find ads for a dozen more.


And you were talking about the subs who come back who complain about it not meeting their expectations. To me a true sub is one who has none; they have a mind wide open to every possibility and only their true No Nos are the guardians of their gates. But then again, that's just me.

As I said earlier on, every D/s relationship is different so how can you have set expectations?

What? I don't think there's anything wrong at all with having expectations. Both as a dominant and as a submissive. It seems a little silly to me to think that a submissive might just accept the first loser she meets just because she's not supposed to have any expectations. I'm a pretty open-minded guy, but if I was a submissive and my potential dominant was, for example, living at home with his mom, unemployed, sat on the couch eating chips and watching TV all day long, and expected me to go out and work to support him, and then provide sexual favors for him every evening, I'd pack my ass right out the same door I came in and in a hurry.

I don't think it's reasonable to say someone should NOT have expectations, just because they're submissive. I mean, what? Submissive, just because they're submissives, should forget about such niceties as fidelity, honesty, openness, trust, communication, caring, respect, and commitment? Because when you say someone should enter a relationship with no expectations, you're saying that the person should not expect for their partner to be monogamous (unless previously discussed), to be honest, to be open, trusting, to communicate with them, to be caring, respectful, and comitted.

Relationships, whether DS or not, are founded on certain expectations. Just because a person is a dominant or a submissive or a masochist or a piss slave, that doesn't mean they aren't afforded the same basic human qualities as any vanilla person would be. Even the lowest of slaves that would let their dominant and all his or her friends piss and shit in the slave's mouth and beg for more still deserves the same human dignity and respect as anyone else does. Just because a person is "into BDSM" doesn't make them any more or less special than any other kind of person. They can still have all the expectations in the world if they want.

In fact, I'd actually recommend submissives to be MORE choosy of their partners. Especially the submissives who meet their partners online. Just starting a relationship with the first person the submissive meets with no expectations is likely to get that submissive hurt or killed. I say, to the submissives, have LOTS of expectations, and don't settle for people that you don't feel can meet them. You're not doormats, and you're not sub-human, so don't think you have to give up your needs and wants just because you've chosen to serve.

[Ruby]

TG - Why don't you tell us what you really think? ;)

Seriously, excellent points, harsh or should I say firm, but excellent.

Alura - while what you are spouting is on the opposite end of the spectrum, there is a place for those of us in-between.

All -

To reside in a place of having no expectations is for all intents impossible. Our minds are constantly working overtime and our imaginations set up hopes, dreams, and desires.

For me, I find it best to go after those things and its even better when I get to share them with friends, family and my lifemate.

While I think a "new" dom can cause just as much harm as an "old" one, the harm can be minimized if both parties communicate frequently and often.

I wonder if the statics of subs versus doms match the working world. I've observed that for every leader there are between 2-11 followers. There are very few alpha males or females in any working group. Nature at her finest? Hmmmm......

[alura]

For once we are on opposite sides.....still it is all so individual, how can you just say 'this is what I want?'? Being real means being real.


TG - Why don't you tell us what you really think? ;)

Seriously, excellent points, harsh or should I say firm, but excellent.

Alura - while what you are spouting is on the opposite end of the spectrum, there is a place for those of us in-between.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

still it is all so individual, how can you just say 'this is what I want?'

You can say that, because these things are individual. You're not saying this is what all submissives want; you're saying "this is what I want." "These are my expectations, not the expectations of a community."

[alura]

That is exactly what I'm NOT saying.


You can say that, because these things are individual. You're not saying this is what all submissives want; you're saying "this is what I want." "These are my expectations, not the expectations of a community."

[BDSM_Tourguide]

That is exactly what I'm NOT saying.
Okay. I'm lost. :confused:

[Ruby]

For once we are on opposite sides.....still it is all so individual, how can you just say 'this is what I want?'? Being real means being real.

Alura - I always know what I want. I might change my mind a million times a second, but for any given moment at a random point in time, I know what I want and I make steps to get it.

So, while I have the perogitive to change my mind as new information is input, I don't have to change my mind. It's all about choice. If I didn't know what I wanted, how could I say I found it, had it, or didn't have it?

Side note for me: Happiness is having what I want and questing for the things I want, but don't have yet. Happiness is also being able to distinguish between a want and a need.

Old sayings to think about emphasizing "Know Thyself"

If you don't know where you're going, any road will take your there.

If you don't know what you want, you are not likely to get it.

If you don't know what makes you happy, you are not likely to find your happiness.

Bangles Song:

If she knew what she wants...He'd be giving it to her,
If she knew what she needs...He could give her that, too...