A few questions concerning punishment

[BarYen]

Hey all,

as I have mentioned a few times I'm in a non-D/s relationship and here to gather information and explore a bit...

I have a few question about punishments in a D/s relationship.

First of all, what sort of thing is a punishable offense? There have to be some things that are let to slide, no? I also wonder about the nature of punishments. Is it still "play" or are punishments serious facilitators through which to express anger? Do people in D/s relationships have just regular-old-relationship fights (yelling and heated conversation)? What factors does one use to decide what the punishment will be? Do Doms breach "hard limits" of their subs when punishing them?

General information and feedback is appreciated. Thanks!

[Ozme52]

You can get a huge head start on this by doing a search.

It's been discussed many times and some of the best thought and ideas are in the archives.

Bottom line... don't use anything you or she enjoys as a punishment. If you like to spank, or crop, or flog, or cane, (for example) then that is reserved for play.

The worst punishment is usually mundane. Lines written. Time out in the corner. That sort of thing.

As far as offenses warranting punishment are concerned, I think that's unique to each couple and situation.

[fetishdj]

Generally a lot of that is up to you as the Dom. It is also partly down to your relationship with the sub. There is no right or wrong answer here.

A sensible Dom will never breach a hard limit without first negotiating it with the sub.

Punishment should be punishment, it should be something the sub hates doing/having done to them in order to teach them never to do it again. If they hate pain then spank them/whip them, if they love pain then never spank them or whip them unless it is in play and for fun. Most of the more effective punishments, however, are those that involve educating the sub - making them do a repetitive task like write lines, making them clean the toilet with a toothbrush or writing out an essay on what they did and why it was bad. Other punishments are things like cum restriction, sitting in the corner to think about their action, positons (like kneeling and/or using your nose to hold a coin to the wall) for long periods of time and so on.

You do need to distinguish between 'play' (doing things that are painful/humiliating but which the sub nevertheless enjoys) and punishment (doing things the sub does not enjoy).

As for how to decide a punishment... I always like to think that the punishment should fit the crime... :)

Some couples have contracts detailing misdemeanours and punishments as part of the 'what a sub needs to do for their Master' section.

[Ozme52]

If they hate pain then spank them/whip them,

Unless, of course, you love it. Because you never want to be looking for an "excuse" to do something you enjoy.

And... if you enjoy something the sub hates... it's all the better when they give themselves up to you for your pleasure. You don't want that to be lost in a series of punishments.

[Diablo]

Well said all. I would further say that there needs to be set limits, that can negotiated as you grow and learn, with a set of punishments. Especially since this is new and you would not want one or the other to become resentful or unwilling to participate.

I'm not saying that a vanilla relationship is bad, if you both can not do this, but slowly growing in this together can form a stronger bond and lead you into the relathionship you crave.

Good luck!!!!!

[DowntownAmber]

Take whatever Oz said and "ditto" it for me.

There are, of course, light and playful "punishments" for being spirited or sassy, and that is up t each couple to decide. Preferences and to each his own so on and yadda yadda. Just as far as I'm concerned, my least favorite punishment is to be ignored or denied - even being spanked is having attention paid to me so not much of a deterrant there.

As for Hard Limits? Absolute NO as far as crossing those boundaries. They're Hard Limits for a reason, and to violate them takes a punishment over the abuse border, IMO.

[sisterhoney61 {RW}]

Since I'm a pain slut. Master doesn't punish me through flogging or whipping or the likes. That would appear to be a reward and would only reinforce the behavior that caused me to be punished in the first place. He usually makes do chores that I hate, especially if they were previously done by me (like if I had already cleaned the bathroom and He makes me go do it again). Or He'll take away computer time or make me remain silent, things like that.

[BarYen]

Thanks a lot to all of you... I'll go back and do that little individual thanks thing soon...

one remaining question: do BDSM couples have regular couple fights? yelling, screaming, negotiating?

[hopperboo]

one remaining question: do BDSM couples have regular couple fights? yelling, screaming, negotiating?
Yelling and screaming isn't normal...I don't think. :-s

I hope not or I don't want to be a normal couple....

[J-Go]

Thanks a lot to all of you... I'll go back and do that little individual thanks thing soon...

one remaining question: do BDSM couples have regular couple fights? yelling, screaming, negotiating?

I don't think BDSM couples are any different when it comes to disagreements than any other couple. I will say that the lifestyle has taught me how intimate a good fight can be. I can tell you from experience that being a Dom in a relationship does not make me the be all and end all in opinion nor does it always give me the last word in a disagreement. If anyone is looking to this lifestyle to end all confrontation with their significant other…good luck!

[Diablo]

A couple is a couple, some couples are also dom and a sub.

Couples disagree and from time to time fight, if you don't that is not normal. OTOH if you do alot it isn't normal.

[hopperboo]

A couple is a couple, some couples are also dom and a sub.

Couples disagree and from time to time fight, if you don't that is not normal. OTOH if you do alot it isn't normal.
*Agrees with Diablo*

But I don't want to be screamed at.

Ever.

[DowntownAmber]

I don't think BDSM couples are any different when it comes to disagreements than any other couple. I will say that the lifestyle has taught me how intimate a good fight can be. I can tell you from experience that being a Dom in a relationship does not make me the be all and end all in opinion nor does it always give me the last word in a disagreement. If anyone is looking to this lifestyle to end all confrontation with their significant other…good luck!

*whistles innocently*

No, BDSM won't end all fights, but I do think it helps the parties learn to "fight fair." Well, more fair anyway...lol. I find myself thinking how to word my disagreements more respectfully, and I find myself pausing to think harder about my position. I also listen much better than I used to - as He is making a point I really try to trust His opinion and see where He is coming from. My two cents, anyway.

[fetishdj]

IMO, ALL couples are sub/Dom to a certain extent. It may not be enough to show up on the BDSM scale (i.e. one of them always defers to the other in a very obvious way) but if you watch any couple you will see a power exchange dynamic between them. I think arguments are more likely to occur when two people are very similar - two Doms and two subs (or two vanilla people who are equally dominant or submissive) would be a total nightmare in a relationship because they will argue. However, with a Dom/sub combination you are more likely to reach that compromise level where arguments are rare. Mainly because the sub will give way more and allow the Dom to have their way.

But, having said that, even a sub's supreme tolerance for the crap Dom/mes throw at them is limited so eventually they will break. And a Dom/me famous patience can also crack when a sub is particularly annoying at them. Arguments happen in any relationship. A good relationship is one where you manage to find a comfortable level of compromise that suits both and therefore limits the arguments.

[Flaming_Redhead]

First of all, what sort of thing is a punishable offense?

Basically, anything the dominant decides is a punishable offense. It could be tardiness, profanity, failure to complete a task, disobedience or disrespect.


There have to be some things that are let to slide, no?

Again, it's up to the dominant. There are some who are very strict, and there are others who are more easygoing.


Is it still "play" or are punishments serious facilitators through which to express anger?

There's a difference between play and punishment, although some of the methods may overlap. I don't agree that things you love to do shouldn't be used as punishment. I love spankings. However, there's a big difference in a spanking for punishment and spanking for pleasure. Daddy loves to spank me, but he doesn't need to invent reasons to do it. He can do it at any time and for no reason.

That's why the dominant has to be clear about the infraction that occurred and what he's going to do about it. A dominant never spanks or whips while angry since he must always be in control. A punishment need not happen immediately while emotions are high, so he could send her away until such a time as he has decided what to do and has regained composure.


Do people in D/s relationships have just regular-old-relationship fights (yelling and heated conversation)?

I certainly can't speak for everyone, but in my experience, it's not the case. There might be heated conversation, but I know I wouldn't be permitted to raise my voice or walk away while being spoken to. A level of respect should be maintained at all times by both parties. However, it's possible for tempers to flare on either side as we are all still just human. When that happens, it's best to stop talking and separate until everyone is calm.


What factors does one use to decide what the punishment will be?

It's totally subjective. The dominant has to decide whether the infraction was done willfully or accidentally. Another factor might be whether or not the instructions were understood. The punishment may be more harsh for a repeated offense than for the first time.


Do Doms breach "hard limits" of their subs when punishing them?

Not if he wants to continue the relationship. A hard limit is a deal breaker. For instance, if a submissive lists golden showers as a hard limit, it means she won't do it under any circumstances. If a dominant punishes her by pissing on her, the game is over. He has just destroyed any trust and respect she had for him.

[SirTimothyk]

BarYen,
the three most important words in the bdsm relationship is trust, communication and consent. You negotiate what is and what is not punishable. If you agree to his definition then anything could be a violation. Being late, not obeying rules (many times rules are written down as in a contract as well as the punishment)

My own version is a hard spanking and whipping until the sub gives me her safe word. We then stop take a break, then repeat, until i am finished. The last time i punished anyone was when my sub misinterpreted something and did not ask for clarification. She had to learn to ask.

As far as arguing, that is common for any relationship, although it should be kept to a minimum.

Have you talked this over with your partner?
Tim

[Ozme52]

Thanks a lot to all of you... I'll go back and do that little individual thanks thing soon...

one remaining question: do BDSM couples have regular couple fights? yelling, screaming, negotiating?

Vanilla or lifestyle, that's about the level of communication. If you talk about issues before they become irritants, then there is no screaming or yelling and the fights, per se, are few and far between.

Because lifestyle promotes communication, perhaps not.

Negotiating is the result of better communication... so it's on the other side of the continuum, imo, from the fighting question.

[Ozme52]

I don't think BDSM couples are any different when it comes to disagreements than any other couple. I will say that the lifestyle has taught me how intimate a good fight can be. I can tell you from experience that being a Dom in a relationship does not make me the be all and end all in opinion nor does it always give me the last word in a disagreement. If anyone is looking to this lifestyle to end all confrontation with their significant other…good luck!

'Tis true. :cool:

[Ozme52]

BarYen,
the three most important words in the bdsm relationship is trust, communication and consent. You negotiate what is and what is not punishable. If you agree to his definition then anything could be a violation. Being late, not obeying rules (many times rules are written down as in a contract as well as the punishment)

My own version is a hard spanking and whipping until the sub gives me her safe word. We then stop take a break, then repeat, until i am finished. The last time i punished anyone was when my sub misinterpreted something and did not ask for clarification. She had to learn to ask.

As far as arguing, that is common for any relationship, although it should be kept to a minimum.

Have you talked this over with your partner?
Tim

Not something I would recommend. There's a whole set of threads on safewords. Making a safeword part of a punishment is generally contra-indicated. But again, that's part of the negotiation process. Some have multiple safewords for different kinds of stoppages, and if punishment is one of those types, then perhaps that's okay. I wouldn't call that a safeword per se.

[AdrianaAurora]

First of all, what sort of thing is a punishable offense?
Ignoring my health is my husbands pet peeve. He is right, I just don't care, so he has to do it. Sitting in doctors waiting room with a severely spanked bottom is not fun.

Every now and then my teasing turns into pestering. Punishments for that can vary on how creative he is feeling. Usually they involve mean, crappy boring things like positions, wearing a gag, bondage...things that are fun for him, lol.

Sometimes I just get moody, irritable, bitchy without being even aware of it. He knows what I need though, how to handle me. I need him to be rough, strict, merciless, edgy - painful.

There have to be some things that are let to slide, no?
Normal couple negotiating - what school we are sending our kid in, what country do we live in. He cant use force to get his way in situations like that.

Other than that, even if I think I don't deserve it, but he explains his point of view and we talk it out, I agree because if he needs it I need it too.

I also wonder about the nature of punishments. Is it still "play" or are punishments serious facilitators through which to express anger?
There is play. There is half-play, he doesn't want to stop playing so makes it more edgy, its still a game, but serious enough for him to get his point across.

When BDSM punishment becomes an excuse for a Dom to express his anger it becomes abuse. If he is truly angry he waits until he has calmed down to deal with an issue.

Do people in D/s relationships have just regular-old-relationship fights (yelling and heated conversation)?
I can speak only for my husband and myself - yes. We banter a lot (its sort of a foreplay for us), have heated debates, but neither of us is a yeller or prone to cursing. We are always respectful and mindful not to say, in the heat of the moment, something we don't mean but that is impossible to take back later. It is easier to forgive and forget a mean beating than it is a hateful word.

What factors does one use to decide what the punishment will be?
"Rules" that are important for Him that I follow, (within reason). Its important to discuss at least general parameters of those rules when beginning a relationship, so she knows what to expect.

But to be fer he/Dom can never be as hard on myself as I am. Sometimes I ask Him to punish me because I need it (for whatever reason).

Do Doms breach "hard limits" of their subs when punishing them?
Not good Doms. Hard limits can be discussed. Some will always be off limit, others can be pushed and stretched, but punishment isn't the time to do it (without prior discussion).

[AdrianaAurora]

Bottom line... don't use anything you or she enjoys as a punishment. If you like to spank, or crop, or flog, or cane, (for example) then that is reserved for play.

The worst punishment is usually mundane. Lines written. Time out in the corner. That sort of thing.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Perhaps it makes sense for a sub that is a "pain slut", but not for the rest. There is a difference between a play spanking and the one used for punishment. They are very effective.

Writing lines would just annoy, irritate and fester resentfulness. Nothing would be resolved.

I don't like pain, the turn on is His ability to cause it. Playful spankings are fun for exploring that. Seriously painful ones are used to break down walls beyond petty feelings, to "feel" his disappointment/displeasure, to clear the air, to perform penance.


Personally the most horrible thing that I have read here in the Library is someone suggesting using "ignoring treatment and silence" as punishment for a sub. Accepting that we are all different I still find that psychologically abusive, mean and immature; if I had wanted to deal with a pouting man child I would have married a vanilla.

[Ozme52]

I don't necessarily agree with this. Perhaps it makes sense for a sub that is a "pain slut", but not for the rest. There is a difference between a play spanking and the one used for punishment. They are very effective.

Writing lines would just annoy, irritate and fester resentfulness. Nothing would be resolved.

I don't like pain, the turn on is His ability to cause it. Playful spankings are fun for exploring that. Seriously painful ones are used to break down walls beyond petty feelings, to "feel" his disappointment/displeasure, to clear the air, to perform penance.


Personally the most horrible thing that I have read here in the Library is someone suggesting using "ignoring treatment and silence" as punishment for a sub. Accepting that we are all different I still find that psychologically abusive, mean and immature; if I had wanted to deal with a pouting man child I would have married a vanilla.

And that's what makes the world go round. Wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same.

PS. Just to be clear... I agree about "ignoring" but a nice "time-out" isn't necessarily the same thing. Mine would be very aware that she wasn't being ignored while her nose was in the corner.

[hopperboo]

Personally the most horrible thing that I have read here in the Library is someone suggesting using "ignoring treatment and silence" as punishment for a sub. Accepting that we are all different I still find that psychologically abusive, mean and immature; if I had wanted to deal with a pouting man child I would have married a vanilla.
I agree with you, great post!

I personally wouldn't be able to handle a relationship where the other person using ignoring and silent treatment to "punish" me.

[hopperboo]

(P.S.: Thanked the wrong person for the post, I was supposed to thank AdrianaAurora!)

[Ozme52]

LOL. Taking it back boo?

[hopperboo]

LOL. Taking it back boo?
No, I don't know how to. :(

[DowntownAmber]

Personally the most horrible thing that I have read here in the Library is someone suggesting using "ignoring treatment and silence" as punishment for a sub. Accepting that we are all different I still find that psychologically abusive, mean and immature; if I had wanted to deal with a pouting man child I would have married a vanilla.

Heh heh heh, I seem to think you have a picture in your head of a pouting Dom with his arms crossed looking away while his subbie tries unsuccessfully to gain his attention. Pouting and petty mean acts of immaturity actually have so very little to do with it, I find this a very calm and rational response to a punishment worthy offense. For example, I was running horribly behind and neglected to call J and let him know. He was worried for me, as we had made very specific plans that evening and the last he had heard from me I was on my way. He was angry, of course, and could have directed that towards me but instead he simply informed me that he was cancelling our date for the next evening and that he expected I would remain home during the duration of the time we would have been together. He would not contact me via phone or internet during that time. Sitting home alone that night, knowing he was a few miles across town drove home the point that when you're expecting someone and wanting to be with them, it is important that your time be considered and valued. Minus the element of fear regarding another's safety, I sat there feeling just as he felt when I disregarded his schedule. Although I had apologized already, when I saw him next I offered another apology based on much more heartfelt experience.

The "silent treatment" also is slightly more than the childhood connotation I think is being applied to it. To me, it means that there is a period of silence where one is left to meditate and consider the issue at hand. I don't find it abusive any more than being "ignored." Quite to the contrary, I find it meditative and centering, and I often use it on myself to concentrate on my Dom or on the nature of my own submission, in fact. The infamous Position One is a great way to physically set the stage for this activity.

Any punishment acted on in anger I think has the potential to cross the line to abuse, I simply don't agree that what I've mentioned even comes close to it.

[AdrianaAurora]

Heh heh heh, I seem to think you have a picture in your head of a pouting Dom with his arms crossed looking away while his subbie tries unsuccessfully to gain his attention. Pouting and petty mean acts of immaturity actually have so very little to do with it, I find this a very calm and rational response to a punishment worthy offense. For example, I was running horribly behind and neglected to call J and let him know. He was worried for me, as we had made very specific plans that evening and the last he had heard from me I was on my way. He was angry, of course, and could have directed that towards me but instead he simply informed me that he was cancelling our date for the next evening and that he expected I would remain home during the duration of the time we would have been together. He would not contact me via phone or internet during that time. Sitting home alone that night, knowing he was a few miles across town drove home the point that when you're expecting someone and wanting to be with them, it is important that your time be considered and valued. Minus the element of fear regarding another's safety, I sat there feeling just as he felt when I disregarded his schedule. Although I had apologized already, when I saw him next I offered another apology based on much more heartfelt experience.

The "silent treatment" also is slightly more than the childhood connotation I think is being applied to it. To me, it means that there is a period of silence where one is left to meditate and consider the issue at hand. I don't find it abusive any more than being "ignored." Quite to the contrary, I find it meditative and centering, and I often use it on myself to concentrate on my Dom or on the nature of my own submission, in fact. The infamous Position One is a great way to physically set the stage for this activity.

Any punishment acted on in anger I think has the potential to cross the line to abuse, I simply don't agree that what I've mentioned even comes close to it.

What I meant was when silence and ignoring is used not to teach a lesson but simply to get back and be mean to another person. I don't have a problem with quietness or time outs. The image I have in my head, is instead of resolving a problem "Dom" doesn't talk to a sub for days, pouts, sends immature looks her way, turns his head away, sleeps in another room, classic emotional blackmail. (And often that results in wife becoming even more shrewish and loud, *shudder*). I have seen too many couples like that and I just cant understand how they simply go through the motions, day after day. If they are staying committed, why not make an effort to make the relationship a happy one or at least be nice to each other? Life is bad enough without making each other miserable.

[Logic1]

Yelling and screaming isn't normal...I don't think. :-s

I hope not or I don't want to be a normal couple....

No we dont fight and we try our darndest to discuss problems as they occur and go from there.
I am no fighter but more of a diplomat :p and so is my girl so that doesnt leave much room for fights which both of us are glad to not have.
For me a fight with yelling and screaming isnt normal and nothing I would want. That just seems to be hard on a relationship in the long run.
I used to live with a girl that thought fights were normal and an everyday occurance. Glad that relationship is over!

[Logic1]

aaaaaaaaaand as I forgot the punishmentpart and there is no edit button ill just say "copy what Oz said" to me too

[DowntownAmber]

What I meant was when silence and ignoring is used not to teach a lesson but simply to get back and be mean to another person.

Yes, I would say that goeas for ANY type of punishment, whether it be something physical or a mental lesson learned. Every Dom worth his salt I have ever spoken with on this topic has agreed that enacting a punishment while angry is a VERY BAD IDEA. Anger and vindictiveness are what turn a safe, sane, and consensual Lifestyle into abuse. Again, this can be applied to both physical and to headspace discipline.

Hope I cleared things up! :)

[AdrianaAurora]

Yes, I would say that goeas for ANY type of punishment, whether it be something physical or a mental lesson learned. Every Dom worth his salt I have ever spoken with on this topic has agreed that enacting a punishment while angry is a VERY BAD IDEA. Anger and vindictiveness are what turn a safe, sane, and consensual Lifestyle into abuse. Again, this can be applied to both physical and to headspace discipline.

Hope I cleared things up! :)



When bdsm punishment becomes an excuse for a dom to express his anger it becomes abuse. If he is truly angry he waits until he has calmed down to deal with an issue.

So basically we agree that we agree, lol. :) We all perceive things differently and I was just saying that for me that particular form of vindictiveness is especially intolerable.
:wave:

[Ozme52]

I don't think I've ever expressed anger with a sub...

The best I can do is disappointment...

[HisKitty]

Dissappointment is the worst :( there's nothing I hate more than dissappointing Master.

[DowntownAmber]

I don't think I've ever expressed anger with a sub...

The best I can do is disappointment...

Disappointment is worse than anger any day - anger I want to fight against and disregard, disappointment will go right to my core and nothing will make me try harder to be better.

[slaveaislinn]

i just wanted to thank you all for your posts it was a very interesting read for a newer slave. Thanks

[.x.Cole.x.]

wow i have learned that everyones opinions somehow interlude into the next. and i love reading them because i learn a llot of different things but punishment wise... everyone has it down... its all subjective. i have never had to use our safeword in the entirety of our relationship. which in a way makes me happy becasue he doesnt push me ya know.. but sometimes now that im thinking about it i kinda like being pushed to my limit if you will.. i dunno.

[Ozme52]

Absolutely cole

He shouldn't "test" you to see if he can make you say it... but certainly he should push your comfort zone a bit... and can do so if you've assured him you would use it if necessary.

It's always better, imo, around the edges. Keeps things spicey.