A view from a bdsm angle

[Lion]

I'm sure that many of you have heard about this story:
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=648489

For the most part, as a muslim, women who still live like that still scare me. Not them specifically, but the fact that such things still occur in this day and age, where her only exposure to the world is an eye slit. My immediate thought after reading this article was "Good for the French authorities". They need to allow only those with French values into their countries. It is their right.

Then I got thinking about it again. While I don't know if the woman in question has volunteered for this type of lifestyle or not, if she is it begs the question, did the French authorities restrict her because if a lifestyle choice? Would a non-muslim white immigrant from a country like Australia, Canada, or US who lived in a completely submissive lifestyle similar to this muslim woman face the same problem obtaining citizenship?

I'm not a supporter of hijabs or other variants of it, but do support people's right to wear one if they so choose to. I just wanted to throw this out there to see if anyone else have thought about something similar.

[odareum]

Well the differnece is it would seem here she was never given the choice. What where her options? That was all she knew from birth to the date she was denied. She had no clue she even had the right to vote. She had no clue what her rights as a french woman where. How can you chose between an apple or an oarnge when all you have had are grapes?

[Flaming_Redhead]

What it boils down to is that she was denied citizenship because she hasn't become "French." Freedom of religion isn't really the issue here. She can speak the language, which is more than I can say about the immigrants in the US, but she doesn't know the laws or customs of the country in which she lives. She's living in a vacuum and, therefore, isn't a member of society. France has a right to withold citizenship from people who aren't really interested in being French and just want to continue living as though they're in another country. When in Rome...uh...Paris...

I just wish the US would adopt such a philosophy instead of letting in anyone who wants our dollars, education, etc., but refuse to learn the language and pay taxes like the rest of us.

[Lion]

Well the differnece is it would seem here she was never given the choice. What where her options? That was all she knew from birth to the date she was denied. She had no clue she even had the right to vote. She had no clue what her rights as a french woman where. How can you chose between an apple or an oarnge when all you have had are grapes?

That wasn't the question posed whether she specifically should be given a French citizenship, my question is more off if a woman, any random woman (or man for that matter) chooses to live a specific lifestyle that is extremely submissive that it can be viewed as abusive by an outsider, should she/he be denied that freedom and be French or citizen of whatever country she/he lives in?

Often, I've heard people view bdsm as a psychological defect that some people have, yet most people here are quite sane, and many have relationships much better then vanilla relationships.

I was probably not clear in my first post, that news article just led me to think about different circumstances where someone who practises some from of bdsm could be affected.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Obviously, her husband has made a serious error in judgment which has resulted in a less than ideal situation for his entire family. In a BDSM context, while it might be sexy to keep a woman locked away from the world or to be locked away from the world, one must always remember that there are consequences for extreme behavior, especially when outsiders with authority get involved.

[chalsia]

Although I do not agree with a women to be draped in ropes with only a small slit for the eyes, it is her choice. Well at least I hope it is her choice or the choice of her husbands and if she submitted to those choices. I do not know about Islam but I know that the women wear the ropes as a sign of wanting to be shielded from all other eyes than that of their spouse. So, in the grand scheme of things, what is so wrong with that. Even after taking religion and custom out of the equation, is it so wrong for a husband to want only his eyes on her? Well granted I would not want to go to those extremes, but if it is His choice .. and she agreed .. what is wrong with it? So is the women discriminated against because of her submission to her husband, to her religion or her beliefs or all of the above? Can a government really dictate such behavior? And on the flip-side of all that, since the women is obviously married, is it not the husbands responsibility to take care of those matters and ultimately did not the husband fail her?

[Torq]

This thread re-located to Religion and Philosophy area for discussion

TY

T

[Masterofpurdah]

with my nickname its difficult to stay away of this topic.
I admit that seeing a woman shrouded under black veils can be shocking for outsiders, as it will be shocking to hold a woman by a leash in the streets. But in a BDSM point of view if its consensual and if its kept in privacy why not.

[Thorne]

I think the big question here is whether the woman adheres to her religious beliefs through true choice, in that she is aware of other options but has chosen her lifestyle, or if she adheres simply because it is all she knows. If she has never been given the opportunity to live her life differently, or at least been made aware of what she is giving up by living her life that way, then perhaps the French are right.

[denuseri]

hows the old saying go?

When in Rome?

When i went to visit the place of my birth a several years ago, i didnt baulk at being told i had to wear the hijab. As a visitor I could have refused according to my cousin, yet i could also have been denied entry to certian places due to my non-compliance, i really never gave it a thought at the time, to each there own.

I can see this issue from both sides, each side is right and wrong in a way.

Should we impose euro-centric beliefs on visitors to the west? Does the west have a dress code? Is it a criminal offence if i wear a hijab while in the west? In the United States it wouldn't be questioned as the wearing of the hijab is considered a religious freedom.

Whats next? Citizenship denial because i wont drink wine or eat pork?

I respect the French peoples (or any sovegrin nations) right to control who gets citezanship, even if i disaprove of the criteria they use for judging cantidates.

Conversely i believe it is closed minded on both sides of the fence, i was not allowed to drink alchol in most places i went that also required the hijab be worn. I know it happens behind closed doors a lot, especially as the youth take up western dress and customs from abroad.

The world gets smaller everyday. Acceptance and respect of different cultures is going to be key if we as a people want to survive in peace.

I think the whole story about exactly why the French didnt grant her citizenship hasnt been told, especially because the media has a way of over controversializing.

[dave]

awesome response, denu