Gorean Philosophies

[denuseri]

I am often times asked what it means to be Gorean. Or Just what is the Gorean way of BDSM, it's core philosophy etc.

John Norman's series called "The Chronicals of Gor" presents a world view with a strong philisophical basis in "virtue ethics". It has been adopted by many in the BDSM community becuase of it's wonderful depections of D/s power exchange.

Alltough there are many people out there calling themselves Gorean etc, thier are few who follow the ethical and moral codes expoused by Norman in his oft misunderstood series.

I have seen virtue ethics brought in to play several times throughout Normans work.

My Owner, Husband and Master, describes the Gorean Philosophies to me as: "A hierarchy of dominion" in which the responsibility of each cast is to seek perfection in thier given craft, in fact every individual in the pursuit of thier duties (including Masters and thier kajirae), is to strive to adhere to the very highest of standards (much as in the Zen dominated Japanese society of the Imperial era, as well as the Greeks and Romans ardor and glory orientated societies of classical civilization).

The powerful dominant males of Gorean society are presented as cruel yet fair, certianly not malicious. Such malicious acts, perversions, crimes,etc.. in fact all our societal woes are presented to be the direct result of our emasculation of male dominance here on earth, brought on by the advent of certian technologies and political mascications.

Within the hierarchy of Gorean truths there is no such thing as equality in an individual sence. The idea of it is preposterous, we each preform to our own individual capacities, and where that places one above the other so be it.

Those who are in power are presented to have great responsibility to those which have submitted to thier rule. They hold dominion over those bellow them in every biblical sence of the word, just as those bellow have an obligation to preform thier duties with pride on behalf of thier betters in fact urging all to even greater acts of accomplishment through competition. In other words; from Ubar to kajira, all involved, have an equal responsibility to thier society as a whole.

The purpose of this thread is to initiate a discussion on Gorean philosophies as well as educate the Gor curious as to what it is that we who identify with Gor are all about. I can assure you it's not all about playing Conan the Barbarian on second life lol.

[littlepet]

I just find what I've read of the books to be: A. Poorly written and B. Disgustingly misogynistic.

The philosophies set forth are IMO misogynistic. (I could start copy and pasting parts of the text) From an evolutionary perspective it is true that a large portion of women are somewhat submissive to men in romantic exchanges, but that's a far cry from women being submissive and willing slaves to men period as a general gender basis.

In addition misogynistic texts with ideas such as these have always been used as excuses to dominate women in the general public sphere. While I agree that dominance and submission even on "traditional gender roles" between a man and a woman can be a beautiful thing, it should not be assumed to be a thing that most women deeply secretly want, which is what the books suggest.

And yes, it's a fictional planet called Gor, but...it's repeatedly suggested in the novels that Earth should be this way too but the men are too weak on Earth to force the issue, so it seems very much like Norman's actual philosophy put to fiction, rather than just fantasy.

And yes the books are fantasy, but...the part where it becomes bizarre for me is when fiction is used as a basis for a real life lifestyle. Again, not trying to judge you. You have been completely mature and kind in our exchanges and I don't want to disrespect and judge you but it's very difficult for me to separate the lifestyle completely from books I find so personally distasteful.

Then my second problem with it is that I think when people base their personal relationships upon a series of books, they take away so much of what could be "just theirs" by adhering to a preset list of rules. And this can happen in the overall larger kink community as well, even outside of Gorean Lifestyles, like the tendency towards people in the Scene to expect that all subs/slaves/pets are going to deferentially address all dominants.

That might seem "polite" to some people, but it's invasive to others. And seeks to overly "codify" something that really should be more personal and private.

I think the largest mistake Feminism ever made was trying to come into people's bedrooms. And I think the Kink community in a sense sometimes does the same. While it's nice to interact with others who "get it" it can be invasive when others who "get it" are possessed with the drive to educate others on how to "do it right."

And no, I am not saying you are doing this or have done this. But I think we can agree there are many self styled submissive and dominant mentors who would like nothing more than to train others to be as uber wonderful as they are.

It's one thing for someone to say: "Here is the safest way to wield a cane" It's another, IMO for someone to say: "Here's the best way to train a submissive" An individual master determines that. And while one may ask for advice on such a topic, often that advice comes unsolicited.

To think that there is some uniform way to train submissives is something I've always found insane, and that is why when I found the writings of Jon and Polly I did connect very much with what they were saying.

And also because J and P live a lifestyle in many regards similar to my own. There is a bit of an issue with the whole, "I'm a female with a need to be owned/controlled by a male" Because I wouldn't submit to a female. I would kick a woman's ass before I'd ever let her dom me. And if she was a lot bigger than me, I'd just have to fight dirtier.

But...I think the problem with the Norman books is this wild speculation, taking a few evolutionary/sociological concepts and superimposing them to this degree. I just find the books crass.

Examples of ewwwww to me:

” … when she has been irritable or otherwise troublesome, even a Free Companion may find herself looking forward to a pleasant night on the stones, stripped, with neither a mat nor a blanket, chained to a slave ring precisely as though she were a lowly slave girl. … A taste of the slave ring is thought to be occasionally beneficial to all women.” Why do the men do this? “It is the Gorean way of reminding her … that she, too, is a woman, and thus to be dominated, to be subject to men.”

"It is the nature of the female to submit; accordingly, it is natural that, when she is forced to acknowledge, accept, express and reveal this nature, that she should be almost deliriously joyful, and thankful, to her master; she has been taught her womanhood." - Marauders of Gor, Pg. 155

To me this is not virtue, it is not love, it is not honor. "taught her womanhood?" Are they freaking kidding me?

That's just two things out of a whole bunch of things. (I wish I could find some of the branding references.)

I have probably said too much here and if I have, you are welcome to tell me where to shove it. Just trying to express my thoughts on the issue.

It's one thing to say: "It seems to me that many women have a desire to be submissive to varying degrees, with a small percentage desiring to be completely owned by a man" (which is my view) It's quite another for someone like John Norman (I know, not his real name) to state what HE states.

I also think such ideas might have been less misogynistic and insane had they been more nuanced from a woman's pen. But that's me.

I am also against all forms of Caste systems. I don't agree with certain "roles" for anybody. While some types of people may as a group tend to gravitate toward one thing or another, any kind of proscribed roles tend to hurt the people who don't fit into those roles. This is felt very sharply in India where a caste system is still in place. This has been felt sharply by many woman for centuries as their options have been severely limited to just what men thought a woman's "place" was.

And while I do agree that we have quite a "pussification of the American male" going on, I think "cruel yet fair" in describing the men of Gor, is about like saying biblegod is "loving, yet if you don't agree with him he'll let you burn in hell for eternity."

[denuseri]

I know what you are saying.

It is simular to saying all of the followers of a given religion or philosophy are wrong becuase you disagree with one small fraction of thier belif system taken out of context.

I am not saying that the gorean way or Norman way is the only one. I we really dont need to reprint the entire text here of his works content to prove it eaither, there are too many volumes to go through. Though i see you have only chosen those few pasages that you could find that would sound mysoginistic taken out of context.

Which proves my earlier point in another thread that most people mis-inturpet the total message and volume of his work.

Litterally missing the forest for a couple of trees.

It is the nature of the female to submit; accordingly, it is natural that, when she is forced to acknowledge, accept, express and reveal this nature, that she should be almost deliriously joyful, and thankful, to her master; she has been taught her womanhood." - Marauders of Gor, Pg. 155

I have personally experienced this blissful submission described above with the quote you would have me see as degrading to wemon. I am proud it is in my nature to submit and i no longer fear to do so as i once did when i was younger.


” … when she has been irritable or otherwise troublesome, even a Free Companion may find herself looking forward to a pleasant night on the stones, stripped, with neither a mat nor a blanket, chained to a slave ring precisely as though she were a lowly slave girl. … A taste of the slave ring is thought to be occasionally beneficial to all women.” Why do the men do this? “It is the Gorean way of reminding her … that she, too, is a woman, and thus to be dominated, to be subject to men.”

The underlined portion above is something nearly every single submissive woman i have ever talked to has said that she also craved (some dommes and switches as well) as i have craved it at one time or another. havent you ever wished to be put in your place before?

As for the bottom part of the quote, the thing was written for a certian audience and wouldnt be congurent with the hypothetical world view he used for his characters if not worded that way. It is after all a story, not a philosophical diologe. He is also saying what Gorean men think. Not nessesaraly what we the reader should think nor what people here on earth should think, alltough the characters in the book may say such things,, Gor is presented as an alien world to us. Its ways are presented differently frome our own.

The world we live in is the way it is.

I see it differently from you. All the following i have taken from one area or another of Dr Langes books.

In my heart of hearts I know what I am, what I was born to be. Honnor and love and duty to Him. Utter servitude to my Master in all things. These are my meat and bread. These are my life, my very soul.

There is no greater love than the slave to her owner. Bound by more than just his will. The passion of the kajira for her owner is absolute. She is more than just property and can do no less than give of herself to him everything.

Many say the free woman is incabable of love as the slave loves.

Only the slave is completely open to her owner in all ways, there are no secrets, no hidden desires, she is naked before Him in all. She bares forth her essence to him in everything, and he deepens her servitude with his strength over her, for she is his most cherished property.In this the slave has nothing but utter trust and total devotion to her owner. Even her own deepest fears must be put aside to please her owners desires. No free woman can truely give this much of herself. It is something truely rare in the world.

A man is a fool who plants a garden and does not tend it well for harvest. So too it is with his other property, his slave in paticular.

My owner possesess me in total, I am His. Collared and trainned in all things, every aspect of life permeated by his dominion over me. My owner loves me. It is no weakness for him to do so, but his greatest strength. I respect him in all things, he keeps me in my place and i adore him for it.I am his bueatiful kajira. His most prized and valuable possession. I am irrevocably His. Nothing is allowed to be hidden from him. I entertain him. Even when I try his patience or am playful, or disobedient I do so in his name, to ever help him keep me well in my place, to further his enjoyment of his property his kajira his slave. His in total i submit.

In this i am what many Goreans call a love slave, born and bred specifically to love my owner in every way.

It is a bueatiful moment when the woman realizes that the man who owns her is her "love" Master and the man realizes that this girl kneeling before him tears in her eyes is his utterly , his love slave.

The slavery in which a love slave is kept is an unusually deep slavery. She must serve him with a perfection that which would stun and startle other girls; if she should fail in any way, even in so small a way that the lapse would be overlooked in the case of another wench, or bring perhaps a mild word or reprimand, she is likely to be tied at the slave ring and whipped; there is good reason for this; she is, you see, a love slave; no woman can be more in a man's power; and with no woman must he be stronger................... Beasts of Gor, pp236

[littlepet]

Hey Seri,

Point of clarification, I said it was "difficult" sometimes to separate the lifestyle from the books, i didn't say I couldn't do it.

I pulled out "two pieces out of context" because my post would have been too long with more. I also don't feel that this is the place for me to pontificate on my views on a work of fiction in the completely unedited sense that I feel I must express those views.

I have more here...and even THIS is just the tip of the iceburg.

http://gor-issues.wetpaint.com/page/A+few+direct+problems+with+the+Gor+novels.

There is a disclaimer at the top of the page, because the comments do get quite snarky with regards to Norman and his um...novels.

As for "context" this is a point that has often been leveled at me by christians who say I just don't understand the context under which biblegod ordered rape of foreign women in the old testament. My reply is that there is NO context in which that is okay to me.

I also realize you are not saying the Gorean way is the only way. Nor am I in any way trying to say you shouldn't follow it. If it speaks to you, more power to you, that's what freedom of choice MEANS. It means I don't have the right to come dictate to you what you must find misogynistic.

By the same token though, I have my own feelings over what I believe to be misogynistic.

What I think may be hard for me to express well here is that I don't care about the "overall work" I think there are plenty of examples throughout the entire work that pretty much holds up my view, but even if there were only the things on the page I linked above, it would be too much.

As it is, those things are not particularly graphic or explicit for the most part. It gets much worse in later novels, where it seems Norman forsook all attempts at plot altogether in favor of the "Don't you stupid women know you're meant to submit to the penis!?!" line of thought.

I have no problem with submission, or my own submission toward my own master. What I have a problem with is the view that it's a woman's "Nature."

I can assure you, that while many women may have varying drives of submissive tendencies, they do not ALL or even the bulk majority have the depth of need that you or I possess.

While many women have sexual fantasies of submission, the key point is that they direct their own fantasies, they have not truly given up all power and cotnrol to another human being, and most women, do not WANT to.

Sure, it's in MY nature, it's in YOUR nature, but it's not in EVERY woman's nature. And to insist that it is, in my opinion is misogyny.

Also, your and my natures of submission vary on another level just between us. You (if I understand what I've seen of you on the boards) are a submissive in general. You seem to tend to defer and make peace and especially toward anyone else who is a dominant.

I, however, am not that way. While I'm deeply submissive toward my own master, I have absolutely no need or drive to submit to any other human being, no matter whether they are "dominant" or not. Male, or not.

This is because, I am somewhat of an alpha female. I kneel before only ONE human being. Period. Now sure, he could "make me" show this deference to other people, but it would be outside my nature and it would show a fundamental incompatibility and lack of understanding of who I am as a human being. It would cause me to resent him, or it would ultimately crush my spirit, but no true and noble good would come of it.

The second text, what we're talking about is a FREE COMPANION. A woman who has not said she wishes to be a slave, a woman who has been trying desperately to maintain her freedom. Trying to just "assume" that deep down "because she's a woman" she must secretly crave to submit to any and all random men, or even just one man, is an act of violence against her.

One person's fun forceful sexual encounter is another person's rape. Would you ever say that a woman WANTED to be genuinely raped? Probably not. And yet, to me, this little segment of the text suggests something just as bad. For a woman to be demeaned and left stripped naked on a cold floor, chained up, and "put in her place" arguably because she is "a woman" and "all chick's really dig that."

The fact that YOU would crave something like that, does not mean all or even most women would. And even those who would, the circumstances under which it would be beneficial rather than harmful, would likely be quite narrow.

I can promise you, if anyone but my master ever attempted such a thing, their head would end up on a pike, and likely by my own hand. Not that my master wouldn't go after said person, but I'm fairly certain my ass would get there quicker.

The kind of things espoused by this text are abusive. Having lived through an abusive relationship, in which a man fucked me and then threw me coldly on the floor afterward on more than one occasion, as only one small portion of his cruelty to me, I can tell you that this is NOT what women want. And John Norman's insistence that it is, even through fiction is a product of his own fevered daydreams and not reality.

Saying it is "just a story" would be fair IF there was not a LIFESTYLE based around it. And the apparent "deeper philosophical views" underlying the text. So it's unfair to say in one breath, that these books espouse a certain type of philosophy, and in the next say: "oh but it's just a story." That's shifting the goal posts of the argument.

I have not spoken once against your personal feelings toward your master or your slavery, I speak ONLY against the Gorean assumption that "women" have a "place."

And you forget also, that I am also in fact, owned. My lack of deference to all males, or all dominants, and my personal distaste of a certain set of novels does not diminish this fact.

You not having witnessed my submission is not a proof text that it doesn't exist. It just doesn't exist for anyone but my master.

[MacGuffin]

the part where it becomes bizarre for me is when fiction is used as a basis for a real life lifestyle.
This is my problem with it too. I think of groups like the Star Trekkies pretending a fictious lifestyle and ask myself what's the difference. Invented languages and so on make it all the more hard for me to treat seriously.

And seeks to overly "codify" something that really should be more personal and private.
Here here. For me it's all about doing your own thing and making up your own rules to suit you and your partner. As soon as we are forced or put under peer pressure to conform to a certain code of coduct we lose individual freedom, the exact opposite of what it should all be about.

To think that there is some uniform way to train submissives is something I've always found insane
I agree to an extent but there can be principles which good training should conform to. It's like education, yes each training course should meet the specific needs of the trainees but nevertheless there can be global guidelines, criteria and best practices.

Saying it is "just a story" would be fair IF there was not a LIFESTYLE based around it.
I'm not sure I understand what lifestyle really means. If there was a commune somewhere with people living in Gorean community 24/7/365 then I could. I ask whether it can truly be considered a lifestyle if a person leaves home every day into the outside non-gorean world to work and behave the same as millions of non-gorean others until coming home to live some, not all, aspects of Gorean way of life in the comfort and privacy of the home.

Of course each to their own and it's not for me to criticize anothers chosen path. I am merely explaining my problems with it and why the "Gorean Lifestyle" is not for me.

[orchidsoul]

Saying it is "just a story" would be fair IF there was not a LIFESTYLE based around it.
I'm not sure I understand what lifestyle really means. If there was a commune somewhere with people living in Gorean community 24/7/365 then I could. I ask whether it can truly be considered a lifestyle if a person leaves home every day into the outside non-gorean world to work and behave the same as millions of non-gorean others until coming home to live some, not all, aspects of Gorean way of life in the comfort and privacy of the home.

Interestingly enough, many peoples lifestyles revolve around "just a story". Most notably any religion.

I'm not religious, nor of Gorean philosophy, but I get it...
If we read something that speaks to us, mind body and soul, why would we not want to adopt it's practices? Not to mention, we're not obligated to agree with or practice every custom listed- that's an even more amazing choice in adopting philosophies of literature.
I'm fairly suspect if I ever met Denuseri, I would not be expected to immediately kneel/bow before Kukovian. Both aware that Gor is not my life style. Assuming that's the case, it would lead me to believe there are philosophies in John Norman's novels that they do not adopt into main stream culture. Otherwise wouldn't every woman Kukovian ever met be kneeling/bowing at his feet?

For many of us, our life styles often are inspired by many books we've read, or experiences we've had... some just focus on a specific series because there's no need for them to look elsewhere.
Many people walk out into the world with different philosophies and customs than those around them- everything from religion, ethnicity, and sexual proclivities-if not, we'd be segregated even more so then we already are... and that's an extremely sad world, imho.

Bottom line- If it works for you without harming anyone else, then all the more power to you. I for one am always interested in at least learning about others philosophies, regardless of whether I agree with them.

This thread has been an interesting read for me because both views are expressed...Thank You!

[littlepet]

Hey MacGuffin,

On the issue of training, it reminds me of "child rearing books" Where supposedly there are "proper ways" to raise children. While most people will agree they shouldn't be allowed to just run in the street or you shouldn't beat them bloody and lock them in closets, that's mostly common sense and any decent human being knows that.

Parents don't learn how to "raise children" they learn how to raise the child or children that they have. Because each child is a unique personality and this or that "technique" won't work for everyone. And if it works on the surface, it might not produce the proper response.

For example, spanking. Some kids are spanked and it makes them more obedient. As a child I was spanked and it just made me more sneaky and less capable to be honest with my parents about my feelings about things.

I became MORE resistant. Now they could have just started beating on me I suppose, and if their need to dominate me was so great they would have had to break me to do it, then that would have been that. But IMO it wouldn't have been a "proper way" to raise a child. Or more specifically not the proper way to raise me.

Speaking of training a submissive as if there are these special "secrets" treats submissives/slaves/pets as if we are a "category" as opposed to individual human beings. One learns how to deal with someone by interacting with that specific person, not trying to find sneaky ways to dominate them or something that LordMasterStupendous determined was the "best way."

On the lifestyle thing, I don't really know what to do with that. You bring up good points. I'm still stuck on the issues I have with the novels themselves and the writer of said novels.

Hey orchidsoul,

You make very good points, and I don't think that Goreans are running around behaving like that. I don't think that you'd be expected to behave in any certain way at their house either.

There are many fictional erotic novels that I've found very hot, or that spoke to me in some deeper way, but I didn't decide that who I was was in some way tied up in them. I'm not saying that doing such a thing is "wrong" I just don't "understand" it. It's even harder for me to understand it when there are things in the source text which I find personally morally disturbing. This may be why I don't follow any religions.

While I may pick and choose from various sources around me to help me to determine my views/beliefs/etc, I don't think I ever could again take any one book or philosophy completely wholesale as a system.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why people must have SYSTEMS. Is it part of humans being pack animals? Or does it run deeper than that? Does something feel more real or valid if someone else wrote about it first?

[denuseri]

Thanks orchidsoul you said that much better than i could.

We also have never expoused to view the philosophical bio-ethical truths taken from the novels as a "system" nor have i said they are the only way to do bdsm, please people read what i have written before composing a reply.

As for me being generally submissive,, LMFAO

Despite the threroritical setting of the books, we are in fact living on earth, there is a big difference between theroy and practice.

Few are the men or wemon for that matter that i submit too. If I dont truely sence dominance from an individual then I fill in with my own, and with an enthusiasium that most find a bit overbearing.`~ask around most newbies here actually think I am a domina, and if one truely reads the books they know that by the conditions stated within, I am not even remotely expected too submit to all, none of the Goreans in the books that come to earth act in such a fashion, indeed it would go against thier ethical depection to do so. (if and only if my "owner and my owner alone wishes for me to submit to another i do without reservation, becuase in doing so i am submitting to "HIS" will and that is the only circumstance that i would.

(Now if living on the constructed world described in Dr. Lange's books things would be different. For all of us, and we wouldnt have this conversation).

As mentioned in earlier posts, My owner and I follow the law of the land we are in within reason, just like everyone else. We do not expect all wemon to kneel at my owners feet nor me to kneel at every mans some of my best friends here are female dommes, some are Gorean female Domme's (wrap your brain around that one) which shouldnt exist (becuase according to the misogynist supporters they should all be on thier knees) ~contrary to the argument being made that goreans are misogynsts, of course the people who say that ussually havent actually read the books so much as read what someone else has said to slander them or only read those portions shown them to support such a theroy.

To sugest that my husband expect all wemon to kneel at mens feet just becuase we identify with a certian philosophical mindset conserning D/s relationships in the individual setting of living on earth sugested by Norman is farcical to say the least.

We do not believe we are living on another planet people.

We do however believe that many of the philosophical ideas expressed by the series of books are very well wrought and worthy of our admiration and emulate them; just like we do many other things we find that sing the song of truth in our eyes.

BTW the thread isnt here to slam the books, If one reads the post starting the thread they will see its here to open a discussion on the virtue ethics that my owner and i have found to be useful in everyday life especially in bdsm relationships that we and many others have adopted from the books.

So far i havent heard a single thing in response to my original post from those who are vehmement detractors of the books.

[Thorne]

On the issue of training, it reminds me of "child rearing books" Where supposedly there are "proper ways" to raise children. While most people will agree they shouldn't be allowed to just run in the street or you shouldn't beat them bloody and lock them in closets, that's mostly common sense and any decent human being knows that.

Parents don't learn how to "raise children" they learn how to raise the child or children that they have. Because each child is a unique personality and this or that "technique" won't work for everyone. And if it works on the surface, it might not produce the proper response.
Actually, parents have to learn both. As the father or two boys I learned that they had to be treated differently, as you say. Yet, there are certain basic commonalities which need to be adhered to as well. Many of these I learned from my own parents, and from helping them with my younger siblings LOTS of them: I was changing diapers at 13. When we had our own, I had to teach my wife some of the "tricks of the trade". Parents of boys will know at least one of these!:)
The parenting books can help those new parents who have no prior experience with children. Especially if there is no family support group, such as grandparents, aunts & uncles, etc. But these are just generalities, for the most part, and not necessarily to be taken as gospel.
The same should apply, I would think, to books and articles about training submissives. As general guidelines, to help the couple learn new techniques and possibilities, they can be valuable. They shouldn't be considered as the only way to do things, though.


There are many fictional erotic novels that I've found very hot, or that spoke to me in some deeper way, but I didn't decide that who I was was in some way tied up in them. I'm not saying that doing such a thing is "wrong" I just don't "understand" it. It's even harder for me to understand it when there are things in the source text which I find personally morally disturbing. This may be why I don't follow any religions.
Unfortunately, there are far too many people out there who have difficulty separating fantasy from reality. Just think of all the people who cannot bear to miss their favorite TV program, who suffer severe bouts of depression if a favored character should get killed off, or who change their entire self-image to mimic a favorite character. You see many of these kinds of people, as MacGuffin suggested, in the Trekkies, or Star Wars nuts, or in those bizarre religious cults.



While I may pick and choose from various sources around me to help me to determine my views/beliefs/etc, I don't think I ever could again take any one book or philosophy completely wholesale as a system.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why people must have SYSTEMS. Is it part of humans being pack animals? Or does it run deeper than that? Does something feel more real or valid if someone else wrote about it first?
I think we all tend to pick and choose among philosophies which resonate within us, to one degree or another. That does not mean we have to dive fully into any of them. And yes, people are generally social animals, depending upon the family, the tribe, the clan, and the state for their survival and, to some degree, for their identity. It's my feeling that those who read more, who think more, who are, perhaps, more intelligent, tend to loosen those bonds of dependency to a greater or lesser degree, learning to be themselves more individually and less as a member of a group. But there are still many, many people who need that group, perhaps because they are afraid to attempt to define themselves for themselves.

Like you, littlepet, I tend to denigrate religion, in general, because I have learned to think about it rather than just accept it. And thinking about it exposes the discrepancies within the teachings of any religion, some of which you have already pointed out. And like any other good book, the Good Book is filled with discrepancies!

As for the Gor books, I first came into contact with them in the early '70's shortly after their initial publications. I read the first several books, enjoying them because of their (minor) science fiction content, their sword & sorcery content, and not least because of their sexual content. I gave them up for similar reasons to yours; the decline of a good story and the increased dehumanization of women.

I enjoy a good erotic story myself, and I will even admit to enjoying some fictional stories about rape and forced submission. The difference is, I know that it is fiction. Reading of real men (and women, sometimes) doing those things to real women, or children, makes me sick. We all need to learn to live in reality, and keep the fiction on the page or the screen, where it belongs.

[MacGuffin]

Pleasure to meet you littlepet

To clarify my point about training. Yes I agree with you that training should be individual to suit both the trainer and trainee. My point was that nonetheless there can be a higher level framework within which acceptable training methods should conform. Example: Training should establish the objectives beforehand. Training should include a periodic evaluation (test) of the trainee progress. The training methods should themselves be periodically reviewed to ensure they continue to be suitable. These principles are global and do not just apply to training but could apply to other situations.

[littlepet]

Seri,

I never ever once said that you lived your life just like the gor novels. I said I believe the Gor novels are misogynistic. And I disagree also with the philosophy that "women" have a "place" or "role." And that it is "submissive" toward men.

My stating you seem submissive toward others is simply because you tend to call other dominants "sir." This may be for only a few and not all, I have no idea, as I said "from what I'd seen"

I have not once in the entire time that we have spoken made ANY type of assessment about exactly what you may or may not be doing in your Gorean Lifestyle. i have not called you wrong or immoral or assumed anything about anything.

All I've done is said I think John Norman is a psycho and his books are misogynistic. That's it.

You said this thread isn't mean to "slam the books" but that was what brought me over here to begin with because we WERE discussing the books and the fact that I found them misogynistic. That was it. I don't care to debate someone's actual lifestyle because I don't care what people do as long as it's consensual.


Hey Thorne, I need social contact, but I don't tend to overly identify with any group.

On the Gor books, I can understand the eroticism to some people for certain parts, but it just goes too far IMO. And Norman himself seems to believe a lot of what he's saying, even if he's hiding behind fiction.

I write some fictional stories about rape and forced submission, but I think it's important to deal with such things, even in fiction in some type of moral way, IMO. i.e. while a character may develop some sort of stockholm syndrome, she's not going to "fall in love with her rapist." That, IMO is disrespectful to women and the actual trauma of rape.

I think for something like that to work in fiction and actually be erotic (as opposed to a story where a rape happens but it isn't eroticized), it can't be glorified as morally good or okay. And moving the action to another planet doesn't change the basic immorality of the situation.

[littlepet]

Hey Macguffin, I think we may be talking past each other. In a one to one personal master/pet or master/slave relationship I don't view training in that sort of rigid way.

Before we entered into this kind of power exchange we knew each other REALLY well, and we knew we were compatible enough for it on all levels. (which doesn't mean it was this easy overnight process obviously)

So in our situation training really comes down to him getting what he wants. And for me it's not a complicated enough issue to require a big training process or fifty zillion rules or a review board for the training process. (Sorry, being a little sarcastic, in general, not directed personally at you)

Basically it comes down to, I obey or I get punished. Or I argue, and either I don't get punished cause he agrees with me, or he agrees with me but I still get punished for the "way" I argued or whatever.

Which I know this makes it sound like he completely micromanages me, he doesn't.

He knows what types of punishments work with me. He may continue experimenting with rewards and punishments and varying his methods as time goes on, but it's very personal and individual.

I don't really think there is anyone on a message board who could "train" my master on how to deal with me. Because while someone may have seen "my type" before, this is the man who knows everything about me. My darkest secrets, my dearest desires, what makes me laugh, what makes me cry, what I'm afraid of. He knows how my mind works, he knows everything. There's really not a lot someone else could contribute to that discussion.

If he couldn't effectively "handle" me, we wouldn't be together, because he would have gotten annoyed or I would have long ago.

[MacGuffin]

orchidsoul

Care to give an example of any peoples lives revolving about "just a story". If you are implying the Bible, correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the Bible compiled 3 centuries after Christ at a time when millions of christians were living christians "lifestyles" and the most powerful man in the world, Enperor Constatine, was a christian. Hardly just a story assuming the christ and the historical e vents of early christianity is fact not fiction and the empire was christian before the "story" was written.

[littlepet]

hahaha, or...in my previous post I missed a point...or he disagrees with me. hahahahaha. It sounded like he always somehow comes over to my side. That is not the case, lol.

[denuseri]

Well i dont mind thread drift,, its fine by me.

And dont assume i am taking what you post personally lilpet, i know you will continue to reiterate your points repeatably restateing your own personels views.

Besides i am more than used to such in here when i come out about being into gorean ideals.

The close minded reference stems from your earlier statements aluding to there being nothing of value that one could derive from the books. Norman has also written several non-fiction books as well. I have found great value in a lot of what he has had to say.

If you really want to debate the literaray style or his message without directly associating it to how i practice what philosophies my owner has incorperated into our own way of practicing D/s (which is not soley gorean) i might sugest you visit the following web site. Where the Goreans themselves congegate.

http://gorchronicles.com/modules/wfchannel/


Of course ther is the horses mouth: and I quote a letter of Dr.langes from 2007 verbatum....

I certianly dont see a caste system or rape mentioned here. Seperateing the writter's intent from the fiction of a story is understandably dificult, unless the writter is bold enough to clairafy his own views as norman so bravely has done. Hide indeed. SMH



The qoute:

"How astonishing is the world-wide Gorean phenomenon!

How unexpected, certainly to me, that anything so different, and so remarkable, could occur.

It was not suspected, it was not sought, it was not envisioned.

I sometimes think of myself as some fellow wandering about, say, a thousand years ago, in some wilderness, who might by accident have discovered magnetism, or some new force of nature, one he did not understand, but one whose reality, once glimpsed, was as undeniable as that of iron ore, or rain, or wind, or lightning. He brings his discovery to the halls of indoctrination, mistakenly, and learns to his surprise that reality may not exist without permission and approval. It is permitted to exist only selectively, and then must be authorized, even licensed. The unlicensed reality is to be denied, or, at least, discreetly concealed.

Exploration, accordingly, is perilous.

And discovery seems to be worse.

One can live a three-quarters existence, of course. Most people do, or less. Certainly the nest is cozy; why leave home; the horizon is faraway; maybe it’s cold out there; it is different, at least; but one grows weary of worms; and one suspects wings have a purpose.

Is reality so terrible? That does not seem clear. We have been living with it for fifty thousand years, and sometimes we have even acknowledged that fact.

In any event, iron ore, and rain, and wind, and lightning are not voted on; they are not forwarded out of committees; they are part of the fabric of things, and intrude, however inexcusably; they seek no permissions, no approvals.

There is such a thing as human nature, the human heart, the human mind, the human body.

At any rate we did not invent the biotruths of human nature, no more than we invented vision, speech, the circulation of blood, the beating of the heart.

We did not invent men and women.

They are what they are, and what they are not is hollow vessels to be filled with whatever sugars and syrups their betters, the anointed cooks of humanity, the intolerant coveters of power and would-be imposers of values, see fit to pour into receptive, neutral containers, containers empty in themselves. How fortunate are the containers to be labeled from the outside by strangers who do not know them, or themselves, and to be filled with whatever contents these outsiders might deem in their own best interests! Too, the human being is not a social artifact, but a living thing, a remarkable animal; he is not a manufactured product, not a paper knife or can opener, not a party hat or rubber stamp, designed for purposes other than his own, though surely the original animal can be twisted and tortured into a variety of unusual forms. Is there any fact more visible on the assembly lines of society? The fact that a tree can be denied minerals and water, that its roots can be poisoned, its branches and bark torn away, and its leaves removed, delicately, one by one, alters nothing. The fact that the tree is not allowed to flourish, to fulfill its genetic destiny, does not prove that it cannot flourish, nor that it lacks a genetic destiny. Indeed the subversion of such truths presupposes their existence. The modern human is too often a bonsai human, cropped, stunted, and potted. The fact that a living thing can be twisted, torn, and pruned into a diversity of madnesses, depending on the ideology of power-seeking establishments, political, religious, and otherwise, alters nothing.

The dictators of values are short on credentials; their self-certifications are pompous and vacuous; the papacies of their self-canonization are suspect. Sometimes I think they suffer from brain damage; perhaps their halos are too heavy.

With all due respect one might offer the test of life consequences. Is it not worth considering?

If an ideology produces unhappiness, misery, grief, division, sickness, boredom, and hatred, surely this is not a commendation but an indictment.

Let men and women be themselves.

Do they not deserve the opportunity to inquire into their own natures, as they are, not as they are told they should be?

In any event, the Gorean civilization suggests that civilizations need not be prisons, suppressing, injuring, and minimizing their victims, but might be enhancements of nature, indeed, a part of nature, in her development, not her antithesis, not her adversary.

And so, what would be the great harm if, here and there, there might be occasional enclaves of rationality, and honesty, a few scattered pockets of health and sanity?

That does not seem so terrible.

So let the Gorean experiment continue."

[Ragoczy]

The purpose of this thread is to initiate a discussion on Gorean philosophies as well as educate the Gor curious as to what it is that we who identify with Gor are all about. I can assure you it's not all about playing Conan the Barbarian on second life lol.

I, for one, would like to see a bit more of the original purpose of this thread -- that being a discussion of Gorean philosophies as actually applied in a lifestyle, rather than criticism of the source material. I think it's self-evident that those living this lifestyle have had to make adjustments from the pure source material, so criticism of the source material, rather than how it's been adapted, isn't entirely productive.

My knowledge of this lifestyle is rather limited -- I read a couple of the books long ago and read some internet material more recently -- but it does seem to me that this is one of the richer of the BDSM types. Meaning that it has a deeper, more structured context into which individuals fit themselves. That's definitely not for everyone, but it works for those who've chosen it.

It has never ceased to amaze me how members of a community such as ours, so readily and frequently told by outsiders how we "should" act, are so willing to tell sub-segments of our community how they "should" act.

So, to start some questions specifically about the Gorean lifestyle as it's actually applied: From what I remember of what I read, which I may have misinterpreted, a Gorean relationship is quite formal, is this so? And, if so, what sort of adjustments do you make in public? Also, is the formality full-time in private?

[littlepet]

Seri, I have no need to continually reiterate my views over and over. I merely thought we were having a different discussion than I think you thought we were having.

Because I don't CARE what people are doing in their own personal lifestyles. My comment that started the whole thing was "Well I think the novels are misogynistic too" and then somehow it turned into this whole big thing where I was close minded.

I find nothing of value in John Norman's work because I think he is a psycho who should be on a thorazine drip. That is my opinion on John Norman. I don't think his views are particularly elegant and I find them overly simplistic in terms of biology and gender roles.

I find Norman himself to be a little on the hysterical and emo side. And consider his writing to be hard to get through, not just because of the content of the novels, but the writing style. This writing style extends into his nonfiction as well.

Me not personally finding anything of worth in any of Norman's writing, is not being close minded. It's me deciding his stuff isn't up my alley. As well as determining I have no interest in the ravings of a misogynist. Fiction or non-fiction. Part of it is the style, part of it is the misogyny that I perceive to be in it, part of it is the overly simplistic worldview that I feel he espouses.

So yeah, all I have said anything about is my views of Norman and his writing. You can live any lifestyle or blend of lifestyle you want in any way you want, and more power to you. I don't critique other people's personal lifestyle choices.

On the topic of what "real Goreans do" Goreans can't agree on that. They're one of the most splintered groups out there. There is no final authority, so why should I get mixed up in figuring out how they all interpret the writings of someone I have no respect for?

If you consider this post to be a continual reiterating of my view over and over, I am merely responding to your latest post to me, to clarify in summary so we are all on the same page.

[littlepet]

Ragoczy,

I thought I had been invited to post in this thread to DISCUSS the source material, because I never made a comment about the lifestyle in particular, just the novels themselves. I honestly had no idea that Seri was inviting me over to discuss actual Gorean Lifestyle practices. All I had an interest in discussing was the source text, which I had thought was self evident, but apparently not.

I have no interest in critiquing or judging anyone else's personal lifestyle. That's silly.
I apologize for tying up a thread in a non-related discussion.

[orchidsoul]

yeah- I don't want to thread drift too much, though I think some really interesting conversation and ideas is coming out of this. Should the thread be split? I don't even know how to do that, or if there's interest however.

Like Racogzy, I'm interested in hearing about how Gorean practices and beliefs are incorporated. Truth be told, it's because the ways in which you incorporate it in your life, Denuseri, seem different than much of what I've read, even on Gorean boards. Often I've encountered too much of the alternate-universe-that-doesn't-really-exist for me and I've had a hard time getting past it.

With that being said, I would like to answer MacGuffin.


orchidsoul

Care to give an example of any peoples lives revolving about "just a story". If you are implying the Bible, correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the Bible compiled 3 centuries after Christ at a time when millions of christians were living christians "lifestyles" and the most powerful man in the world, Enperor Constatine, was a christian. Hardly just a story assuming the christ and the historical e vents of early christianity is fact not fiction and the empire was christian before the "story" was written.

That depends entirely on what you believe. I'm not doubting the existence of Christianity, per se, rather the actual events depicted regardless of who put the ink on the paper. And not only in the Bible. There's much research that proves and disproves various scriptures whether it be the Bible, the Torah, the Quran or any other sacred book.

Not to mention, the Torah is the Old Testament, technically the beginning of the Bible... and if I'm not mistaken (which I very well could be) it's not recognized by Christianity. In fact, it's the basis of a whole different religion.

I was raised Jewish and have the same thoughts on the Torah. For me, many sacred scriptures are stories (yes, some non-fiction as well) that have moral teachings included- some that wholeheartedly have influenced my moral code, and others that I vehemently abhor.

Much like many documents- from sacred scriptures to literature. Their entire make up is not factual per se (imo), rather espousing ideas and beliefs and it is up to our individual selves to extract what we believe to be beneficial. In fact, there's many different religions founded on Christianity, all of whom interpret the Bible differently... who's right?

It's been tried for many moons to prove the Bible, yet it hasn't completely happened. Therefore, yes, it's a story imo. But I don't think there's anything wrong to associate with ideas that resonate with us.

And yes Lilpet, i do think many people feel the desire to be part of something- whether it be religious beliefs, lifestyle choices, or the local softball team. Probably because of what you mentioned about packs. It's good to hang out with like minded folks, regardless of the cause.

hope that all makes sense :)

back to the regularly scheduled program.

Good questions, Racogzy!

[Kuskovian]

"So, to start some questions specifically about the Gorean lifestyle as it's actually applied: From what I remember of what I read, which I may have misinterpreted, a Gorean relationship is quite formal, is this so? And, if so, what sort of adjustments do you make in public? Also, is the formality full-time in private? " By:Ragoczy

" Like Racogzy, I'm interested in hearing about how Gorean practices and beliefs are incorporated. Truth be told, it's because the ways in which you incorporate it in your life, Denuseri, seem different than much of what I've read, even on Gorean boards. Often I've encountered too much of the alternate-universe-that-doesn't-really-exist for me and I've had a hard time getting past it." By:Orchidsoul

Thankyou for expressing an intrest in learning as opposed to critisizing. It is refreshing for a change and apreciated.

Now to answer your questions:

It is as formal or as in-formal as the desires of the the inividuals involved want it to be.

The first rule between us is however "RESPECT" without that we have nothing. I respect her by holding dominion over her in a manner by which she may be proud and thrive in the joy and freedom she recieves in submission. She accordingly respects me by being pleasing in all that I require of her, (even testing my will on occasion is a sign of respect, as it shows that she cares for us not to slip into complacency) even when not in my presence.

In our relationship it varies depending on the situation. We laugh and share together (just like many instances depected in the books between couples) and just like any other human being does in any relationship vanilla or otherwise. (You would never guess just runing into us on the street that we are any different from any one else). Or that at snap of my fingers she would gladely drop to her knees).

I do generally keep her under a stricter level of disipline than that which most submissives would be comfortable with (see the Gorean quote on "Love slaves" posted in the "being Kajira" thread) but also I am much more understanding than most would believe a dominant ever should be.

It is not; however recomended that she or anyone ever mistake any apparent leniancy on my part as a weakness, it stems instead from my own self confidence that she has been well trainned under my quirt and honnors the trust and love we have placed with each other. If I was weak or didn't keep her under a tighter level of control than most; she would devour me whole, and I would expect her to do so with all the vengence of a wrathful woman scorned becuase she was not given the dominance over her life she craved.



Those of us that actually practice in real life what we preach and follow the true "spirit" of what Norman has written; are all too often miss-associated with the fanatics and posers that have so obviously not read the books (or at least didn't really understand them), so we have a tendency to keep to our own. Which is why you don't often encounter us.

All while being attacked directly or indirectly by the overzealous factions that claim to be "the only real Goreans" and misrepresented by those that think running around in a vidieo game makes them "Gorean". One group being crazy and the other fools, take your pick.

And then thier are the "anti-goreans" who spend a majority of thier time expounding sopphist rehtoric against anything about "Goreans" they fear that threatens thier world view over and over in an attempt to keep it confined and or censored; becuase they do not really wish to understand the broader picture involved. They all too often mask thier attacks under the guise of indirect slander and false pre-tense by slyly critiequeing the books instead of the practicioners of the books ways.

Just like the common theme presented by those claiming to support the troops but not what the troops are fighting for which: is indeed tantamont to saying "your full of crap for believeing what you do".

[MacGuffin]

orchidsoul - With that being said, I would like to answer MacGuffin.
You said - "Interestingly enough, many peoples lifestyles revolve around "just a story". Most notably any religion." - I challenged you to give an example given that all the major religions were living the lifestyle well before their "story" was written. That said, this is off topic so it's best we agree to disagree.

littlepet - Hey Macguffin, I think we may be talking past each other.Yes and no. I will send you a pm rather than explain here........oops looks like I won't - never mind we broadly agree anyhow.

Ragoczy - I, for one, would like to see a bit more of the original purpose of this thread
Apologies for being off topic. I don't know enough about gorean philosphies to discuss them so I'll just follow the thread for a while.

[Kwong]

Hi just wondering is this worth reading? is it a good read or just informative?

[Ragoczy]

So how do you two, following the Gorean philosophy in your own lives, adjust your behaviors when dealing with others who don't?

I assume, for instance, that Kuskovian isn't dragging random women off the street and chaining them to a slave ring.

It's my understanding that a Gorean slave is expected to be respectful and deferential to everyone (?) to a degree that most in traditional society would find odd, so how much does denuseri have to adjust her behavior based on surroundings?

And finally, with regard to the Gorean moral/ethical code, how do you deal with those in traditional society, most of whom have, shall we say, an, at best, distant relationship with the concepts of morals and ethics?

[Ragoczy]

In a curious coincidence, some people at the local dungeon were discussing Gorean last night. I was concentrating on watching my kitten get her claws into someone and make the poor girl bounce up and down, so I heard only bits of the conversation, but it was about the Gorean status and hierarchy.

I heard mentioned: self, free men, children, animals, slave women and slave men as all falling in different positions on a set hierarchy.

Would you possibly expand on that from your viewpoints?

[denuseri]

By Kwong: "Hi just wondering is this worth reading? is it a good read or just informative?"

Some people have enjoyed the series very much, I obviously did. But with all litterary endeavors not everyone will aggree, bueaty is in the eye of the beholder. Some found the books to be overly descriptive or too detailed in philosophical issues, where as others read them for those very reasons.

By Ragoczy: "So how do you two, following the Gorean philosophy in your own lives, adjust your behaviors when dealing with others who don't?"

Unless I am following a paticular order or preforming a specific task purposfully designed to further my submission or excite my owner or my own desires for exhibition. the general public has no clue i am a pleasure slave under 24/7 domination.

Truth be told Sir, most other BDSM practicioners when meeting us in person would never know we were "gorean" at all until it comes to the use of certian words. During conversation or the verbal issuence of certian commands.

For the most part when dealing with those that disagree or look down upon us we try to show by example,, for actions speak louder than words

As my owner said in his post we take flak from the fanatically crazy types that call themselves gorean, who we personally cant stand, but we do still attempt to help them see the "forest" intead of focusing on a single "tree".

we also try do our best to try and show people our brand of bdsm isnt something to be feared which is no easy mission.

all too many people cant look past the word "Gorean or Kajira" and take offence and stereotype or pigeionhole us as being a fringe group of less than serious practicioners of bdsm by calling us a version of "trekkies" or "etc. (not the worst thing ive been called but just as hurtful, i litterally cried when i see some posts)

combating the bad stigma propogated for the most part by the overtly anti-gorean hype created in an earlier exchange by Jacobs and his constituents against the books is a difficult task

Helping people see that certian words or principles norman presents in his books that he himself has said were not intentions of how things should be on earth so much as how they were on gor is one of my main reasons for my being "online" He does cover in detail in the books how a "Gorean on earth would act" and we have found many of these principles to be in accordance with a harmounious life.

By Ragoczy: "I assume, for instance, that Kuskovian isn't dragging random women off the street and chaining them to a slave ring."

Giggles of course not Sir, that would be generally considered illegal, He is far to Honorable to abduct a free person or break the law in such fashion. To be Gorean on Earth is still to be Bound by Earth's laws. "when in rome" etc.

By Ragoczy: "It's my understanding that a Gorean slave is expected to be respectful and deferential to everyone (?) to a degree that most in traditional society would find odd, so how much does denuseri have to adjust her behavior based on surroundings?"

Besides my having to rememebr when I am moving to be aware of how my body looks from different angles etc, as to present oneself as aluring and pleasing as possible to my owners or anothers gaze.

My owner has me conform to the general principle that I am to endeavor where possible to be "pleasing". I am respectful where appropriate to the degree required by my owner in any given circumstance, including chat rooms. For instance I dont generally speak in "third person" in public or in those settings its not required of me. I don't say Sir or Maam where not socially acceptable by the everyday standards of where we live or are at the time. To do so would cuase unnessesary attention to our special relationship and perhaps disrupt the harmony of others which would disapoint my owner as then I would be breaking the first tenent of a kajira,, "which is to be pleasing in all things."

This doesnt mean i dont act spirited or even like a "domina" in some peoples opinion. I am after all also a living representation of the Kajira's fire and spirit, my slave heat and passion are only restrained by the disipline my owner and he alone keeps me under. If I sence Dominance in an individual and freely choose to submit or am submitting becuase my owner wishes me to submit to the will of another so be it.

All others beware. (wicked evil grins)

The owned kajira is not "common" property on earth or Gor despite the over zeaolous ones that have misinterpeted the text.

She serves the needs of her owner first and foremost.

A free person shouldn't expect to be able to just boss around the property of another without the owners permission; especially if it interferes with set standards of conduct for that property, and or previous orders / conditions to which the said kajira is subject.

The kajira that is owned must protect herself from harm in the absence of her owner's presence. She is the the precious property of a Gorean and should not forget it. (This also applies for harming herself.)

"These girls may be exchanged among men, but commonly they are not. Most masters are rather possessive about thier slaves, paticularly if they are fond of them." Gardsmen of Gor, pp209

The unowned just as the owned kajira should also seek to train herself, keep herself free of harm, preserving the property that she will one day become for her future owner.

Keeping ones eye firmly fixed on the goal of every kajira; to one day become a true love slave for thier owner. To be utterly possessed, truely owned in all ways. She must be prepared for the moment, the moment she becomes "collared" in many ways.

To grow and learn, to seek spiritual and intelectual training as well as the physical, to become her owners very dream of truth and bueaty.

The kajira should: Never dull or boreing, She should be inventive, erudite, enticing, aluring, and beguileing. All this She must become and more. For her slavery shall one day be in total and her owner will want nothing less than her "all".

"One of the pleasant things about owning a slave," I said, "is the opportunity to converse with her, to listen to her, to hear her express herself, her feelings and ideas. One can learn much from a slave. Many slaves, like yourself, are highly intelligent. They can express themselves articulately, clearly, trenchantly, and lyrically. It is a great pleasure to talk with them. Then when one wishes," I said, "one puts them again on thier knees." Beasts of Gor, pp 203.

By Ragcozy: "And finally, with regard to the Gorean moral/ethical code, how do you deal with those in traditional society, most of whom have, shall we say, an, at best, distant relationship with the concepts of morals and ethics?"

Well Sir we live by the priciples of Truth, Honor, and Love in our household "respect" is literally everything. We cannot change the beliefs of others that do not cling as stringently to any ethical code. We can only live our lives and hope that others will find our way "The True Gorean Way" the one that most follows the principles set forth in the books; worthy of emulating or incorperating into thier own. Our way is of course not the only way. It is however the best one for us.

Thanku all for expressing such a detailed intrest in our views of what it means to be Gorean.

I hope you have found our views useful.

Your intellegent and honest curiosity is a re-freshing change from the ussual preconcepted inquirery we normally encounter.

[orchidsoul]

orchidsoul - With that being said, I would like to answer MacGuffin.
You said - "Interestingly enough, many peoples lifestyles revolve around "just a story". Most notably any religion." - I challenged you to give an example given that all the major religions were living the lifestyle well before their "story" was written. That said, this is off topic so it's best we agree to disagree.

With the exception of the 'inventors' of any religion, everyone who practices the belief systems of said religion is doing so based upon the teachings- whether they're written or verbal seems irrelevant to me. If written is the crux of the question, then anyone practicing after their respective sacred texts were written would be those described in my original statement.

Thank you Kukovian and Denuseri (and Racogzy for excellent questions!) for an insightful look into your customs. I'm sure I'll come up with a question or two if that's alright.

[damyanti]

Just like the common theme presented by those claiming to support the troops but not what the troops are fighting for which: is indeed tantamont to saying "your full of crap for believeing what you do".[/B][/COLOR]

Now, did you really have to muddy the thread with this comment...whatever it means,...because now I don't understand what you wanted to say with it at all. I respect soldiers who follow their chain of command, I respect their day to day missions in trying to maintain some order in a chaos that they have not created or even asked to be sent to clean up...they are merely trying to do the best they can and live up to their own code of honor. I can respect that, and I do. But there is no way I will ever condone the reason they were sent on a non-existent mission fabricated do to the fact that Georgie boy has a little willy. That man has no honor, he is a retard, thats not a personal opinion...let him take an IQ test. Now I fully support opportunities for mentally challenged people,...but I draw the line at giving them access to nuclear codes.
My apologies for abusing the thread, but you opened it up.


On thread:

I haven't read the books, they are a little hard to come by in my little corner of the world, (but I am keeping my eyes open, lol)...unless his style of writing is really bad, from what I have studied of the books and Norman I think I would like them. I doubt I would make it a lifestyle philosophy, but I would probably take bits and pieces from it...just as I do from anything I read.

I think the issue here is some people take things too seriously (crazed Goreans and those calling the books misogynistic)...from what I have seen Denuseri and Kuskovian make a really shining example of how to do the whole thing in SSC and loving manner.

My specific question is...whats the difference between kajira and ("ordinary") bdsm slave/submissive...except for a few exotic names, some extra positions (and imaginative sf role play, for some)...I really don't see what the big deal is and how its different from the rest of the bdsm...

I am a big proponent of this thing we do being a private thing between two (or more, if thats you thing, lol) people actively involved in a relationship.

Writers write and take inspiration in different ways and from different sources...who knows what Mr. Norman was thinking when he was writing a book...and frankly who cares. A person who is a misogynistic ass***e will find confirmation for his beliefs anywhere he wants...from Bible, through the fact that the sky is blue to supermarket discount pamphlet, lol.

There is no right or wrong...different things work for different people...it is whatever you make it to be, it is whatever you need it to be.

[denuseri]

I believe what my owner is saying is that to "say one thing and do another" is hyprocracy.

We do not condone the current President's excuse for the invasion of Iraq. But we will not protest a victory in that war, we would not see our troops brought home in defeat or thier honor impinged by those that wish to use sophist rehtoric and work against them while saying they don't. My husband was a soldier for many years and see's such statements made by in previous wars as well as this one , as a blanket staement to condone the undermining of his brothers in arm's morale.

The analogy was used to point out that when one calls a book, such as the bible or the upandishads or the koran a load of "crap" or some such, that regaurdless of what they think they are saying to others; the believers of such a book are indeed being told that thier belifs are wrong, in effect that they are wrong.

By damyanti: "My specific question is...whats the difference between kajira and ("ordinary") bdsm slave/submissive...except for a few exotic names, some extra positions (and imaginative sf role play, for some)...I really don't see what the big deal is and how its different from the rest of the bdsm..."

Well damyanti,,, for the most part it isnt any different. Axcept perhaps as described bellow:

I would also like to point out that we have many scources for inspiration in addition to expouseing Gorean ways. When we came to this site; however, I saw allmost from day one, a certian level of "anti-gorean" attitude and disdain, some directed in a most hurtful manner directly to me in chat simply becuase i refered to myself as a kajira when asked "what i was", which after discussing with my owner we decided it must stem mainly from an appparent ignorance of what Gor is all about so:,

We are striving to educate people to the reality that being Gorean per-say is not in fact so different from other ways of practicing bdsm. We are trying to show people the bueaty of it, where too many before us have obfuscated or maligned it's message.

Alltough there are some things it is not about that many other perspectives find generally acceptable two examples of which being:

Sadisum and Ritual Practices:

Sadisum for instance goes against Gorean preceps. Pain is not used soely for it's own sake, more so as a tool to garner and further submission.

To harm ones slave simply to please your own whim shows a severe lack of disipline on the dominants part and is considered by goreans to be unussually cruel or "perverted" and unnatural. One does not damage one's most prized possession in such a way without being considered a fool. A gorean master must be under just as much if not more disipline than the slave.

Thier is a stronger emphasis placed on rituals than in some circles.
For instance:

When I preform the ritual of "Obedience" it is perhaps one of the most important and symbolic conditions of my servitude in the Gorean custom and i am honnored to have the previlage to do so, every time I am called upon to preform it, it is a "big" deal.

Here is an example of the ritual to clairify what i am saying:

(Regardless of what ever position i was in, i gracefully move to kneel before my owner and streatch forth sliding unto my belly placeing the side of my face on the ground just infront of his feet, my hands to eaither side of my head (palms up), my tail will be rather high as i keep my lower legs where they were, arching my back.

i then silently plead with my trembeling body perhaps softely mewing my eyes looking up at Him in adoration, when and if he chooses to acknoledge me, i tentativly reach forth and guilde His right foot to rest upon my head and neck and place my hands behind my back with the wrists crossed as if bound

This is the sacred ritual of female obedience, beneath his full wieght i would be crushed, it is symbolic of more than just my free submission to him, it is a proffering of my very life to his will,

the signifigance is not only the physical aspects of his greater strength, but the mental and spiritual relationship between a Master and his kajira, under the full wieght of his dominance i would easily be crushed like a flower by a fist,

in placing my total trust , love and devotion in him, i have crossed the line between being a submissive and entered that of a full pleasure slave bound by my Masters will, i am his property and completely at his mercy,....

............................ in the preformance of this ritual of full obedience before him i am truely "being kajira").

We are not saying other ways are wrong or lack anything for those involved. We are not saying they lack importance for the people that practice them.What we are saying is there is a much more spiritual aspect to the "Gorean Way" than most would give it credit.

[damyanti]

I never had prejudice against Goreans...I never even knew such a thing (prejudice) existed. Then again, my knowledge about it stems from sites of couples a lot such as yourself, some stories and googling John Norman. I didn't hear of Second Life prior to coming here.

Honestly, from what I have seen I did liken them a lot to trekkies, because I didn't think it was plausible to fully and sincerely live such a lifestyle in our modern world.

I did enjoy the stories very much.

As for people attacking you identifying yourself as kajira...I always thought that (word) sounded so cool!!!

[orchidsoul]

I think you hit the nail on the head with the spirituality of it all. It certainly has a large element of spirituality, perhaps pronounced by the ritualistic ways. Either way, I'm getting quite a lesson here and I thank you and Kuskovian (Yes, I finally spelled it right this time! Sorry about that)

You've mentioned between this thread and others about being aware "how your body looks from different angles" and presenting it to be most pleasing. Would you mind elaborating on that a little?

With the lack of sounding ignorant, is it along the lines of tall and proper posture, sucking in stomachs, pronouncing your bosom, and perhaps holding your legs in fashions that make them appear the sleekest and sexiest?

I'm thinking this is knowledge any lady can benefit from :)

[denuseri]

Yes orchid it is.

i have the advantage of having some one to direct me when it comes to posture and the like. In addition to being a "dancer" with the training it intails/I also practice my positions and movements infront of a mirror especially transitions. Weather or not ones tummy is tucked as well as other things is of course up to the individual doms delight.

I keep my back striaght or arched slightly. When i walk it is to be done not for efficiencey's sake so much as a display, short steps with slightly overt hip movements. If i run it is stiff legged when done for presentation purposes, simular to a ballerina. This disipline is of course modified when i am excersiseing or working but never fully relaxed. Even when lounging around on the couch while my owner sits in his throne (his lazyboy lol) I keep in mind his eyes are upon me.

Most girls are not aware of thier posture and have thier shoulders very relaxed and slumped foreward. My shoulders are to be rolled back, my chin slightly tucked in an erect and apealing posture.

For instance while sitting at this chair, my back is slightly arched, arms bent at the elbows, fingers poised over the keyboard, head up, sitting foreward on the seat so my back isnt resting on the chair, my knees spread and only the balls of my feet resting on the floor, with my tummy flat or slightly tucked, my chest slightly out. If my owner were to pass by and look in or is likely too, or i am just practicing my posture, this how i would be. Now in front of other people or other situations it is modified somewhat to be more "prim" and proper as the case may be

[orchidsoul]

thanks Denuseri!

And you're right about most peoples everyday posture. Not to mention it's less sexy, it's not good for the body. *off to ponder my own*

[denuseri]

The following are two quotes from one of the books about "pride" and being a kajira"

'"There is a difference' laughed Hassan, 'between the pride of a free woman and the pride of the slave girl. The pride of a free woman is the pride of a woman who feels herself to be the equal of a man.
The pride of the slave girl is the pride of the girl who knows that no other woman is the equal of herself.' " Tribesmen of Gor, page 333


'Most female slaves,' said Hassan, 'walk very proudly. They are proud of their slavery, and their mastery by men. They have learned their womanhood. It has been taught to them. In their way, though imbonded, totally, I suppose they are the truest and freest of women. They are closest, perhaps, to the essentials of the female, those of subservience to the masculine will, obedience, service and pleasure. In being most themselves, utter slave, they are most free. This is paradoxical, to be sure. Most girls, verbally, will object to slavery, but this half-hearted, pouting, ineffectual rhetoric is belied by the joy of their behavior.. No girl who has not been a slave can understand the joy of it, the profundity and freedom. The objections of girls to slavery, I have noted, are usually not objections to the institution which, in the sweet heat of their bodies, they love dearly, and fear only to lose, but to a given master. Given the proper master they are quite content. In the proper collar a woman is serene and joyful.' " Tribesmen of Gor, pages 332 - 333

One must be able to read between the lines and see what "Hassan" is saying about where the true joy freedom and pride of a kajira comes from. Many have mistaken the second passage to be misogynistic thus missing the forest for the trees.

[Ironwulf]

I just wanted to stop in and thank denuseri for continuing her excellent work. She does a great job of explaining things in ways I doubt I could ever have done.

I also would like to thank those that post to this thread as their questions and comments help us add to the understanding of what the Gorean Philosophy is all about.

While I in no way want to highjack this thread, I would like to point to another thread which might be used to gain additional insight to the world of Gor as seen by other Goreans that used to use the forum more in the past such as myself. It seems easier to point to what has already been written then to try and repost the comments again here.

Wolfscout started the thread Gor & largely the Gorean Lifestyle (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8473) and while it is no longer an active thread it might provide additional worthwhile reading for those interested in learning how some of this forums gorean members have expressed themsevles on the subject in the past.

Best Wishes to all and hope to see more discussion of the lifestyle in the future. - Ironwulf

[Kuskovian]

We ourselves participated in that thread if I recall.

I do not know if it survived the move to the new server.

[goldendawn]

i have read every post in this thread and my eyes are burning! The attacks and criticisms of the books was to be expected, inevitable. i offer only one comment and find it hard to believe that after ten years it is the same comment offered then...
if you read the books with your eyes alone, you will find a story, a world, not unlike a horror flick at times; a tale of erotic fantasy and terror; a tale for Men's dreams. if you read the books with your mind and emotions, you will find the meaning of freedom; you will find the silken thread that can destroy the walls you've built up; you will find a tale for women's dreams.

When you spoke of the spiritual aspect of being kajira, you hit the nail on the head. It is not for those that want playtime, although there is plenty of that as well. A kajira's life is not one for her own pleasures although her pleasures are fulfilled. A kajira's life is from the heart, it is always, there are no "hours of the day" specified for her to be submissive, to be "kajira", it is always there. While actions may take outward form a few hours of the evening, she does not stop being kajira for the rest of the time. Whether she is owned or wandering alone, she is always kajira, though most would not know her at first glance.

Someone asked if there was a difference between being submissive and being kajira. In the books it is said "Once a kajira, always a kajira". i have heard this phrase bantied about online for years and very seldom have i heard it used in full meaning. Kajirae are submissive. If playing semantics ...no there is no difference.

When i was trained as kajira, i was warned that i would "change". i didn't know, didn't appreciate what that meant until many years later. i had changed, completely. It didn't hit me until i was out of the relationship with my Gorean Master for several years. i still walked with the awareness of a kajira; i still spoke to Men with the awareness of a kajira; i still looked in the mirror with the awareness of a kajira; i still cooked with that awareness; stood with it. i had changed and after 5 years now of being out from under Discipline; i am still kajira. The changes are subtle; they are psychological; they are soft, but they are still there. After living a nilla life for the past several years, they are still there, burning softly but burning none the less.

Is there a difference between kajira and submissives? i can't answer that. Each submissive answers the question herself. i've known submissives not knowing of Gor philosophies, to be very much like kajira, where their submission was truly at the heart of them.

Thank you for this thread and pointing me to it from the other one. i needed the reminder.

[denuseri]

Goldendawn:

Thanku so very much for your words my sister, they have reinvigorated my strength of spirit anew.

To know that there are still yet others out there that truely "get" what being kajira and Gorean is all about is a refreshing and rare occurance.

with deepest respect
hugs and kissess
denuseri

[~blue~]

A book contains a story. And a story can be enjoyable to many, and unenjoyable to the same amount of people. Some may make a stand against it, making rallies to bar its existance, while others stand for it, creating societies of people who follow aspects of that story.

To gain happiness from a story can be a good thing. To try and make happiness from it is a completely different ideal. And to take a life from a story is not always a good idea. You make your own life, that shouldnt involve living others.



Very good subject matter and debate in the thread though.

[denuseri]

As Goldendawn so eloquently stated it is the philosophy between the lines of the books that we are speaking about.

The only "story" we live by is the one in our own hearts.

The only "Life" that we make is or own.

[Thorne]

To gain happiness from a story can be a good thing. To try and make happiness from it is a completely different ideal. And to take a life from a story is not always a good idea.
Many followers of the Bible or the Koran would argue with you there.

We all build our lives on what we learn, whether from family, friends, religious leaders, or books. One of the great parts about the freedom we have is that we can pick and choose those philosophies which resonate within us, discarding those which offend us. Whether we realize it or not, we do this all our lives.

Where we run into problems is choosing only one source of inspiration, rather than many sources. By turning away from source of wisdom which may not exactly agree with that one source, we take the first steps on the road to fanaticism.

In the context of this discussion, I am quite moved by the statements of denuseri and goldendawn, among others. I don't claim to understand their reasons for embracing this philosophy, which seems somewhat alien to me, but I can at least understand that they are following their own hearts in this matter.

[damyanti]

A book contains a story. And a story can be enjoyable to many, and unenjoyable to the same amount of people. Some may make a stand against it, making rallies to bar its existance, while others stand for it, creating societies of people who follow aspects of that story.

To gain happiness from a story can be a good thing. To try and make happiness from it is a completely different ideal. And to take a life from a story is not always a good idea. You make your own life, that shouldnt involve living others.



Very good subject matter and debate in the thread though.


As Goldendawn so eloquently stated it is the philosophy between the lines of the books that we are speaking about.

The only "story" we live by is the one in our own hearts.

The only "Life" that we make is or own.

And the philosophy between the lines of the books comes from your heart! Perhaps its because I like books so much, but I dont see nothing wrong with that.


(I already stated my opinion on the thread, so I am not going to repeat it.)
The reason I am posting again (no, I am not disagreeing with anyone, lol), is because the last few posts reminded me of some things. (Yes, I know the value of human life and I am not trying to diminsh that), but what always strikes me as the most barbaric of crimes is when people distroy history, monuments and most of all, burn (enemy) books....probably because those things represent an attempt to destroy the meaning, the soul and the heart of the people.

I hope one day I can truly get at heart, not just head, the words you and Goldendawn speak. And whether, at that time, I choose to call myself kajira, submissive or flying monkey, it will be nobody elses business.

[damyanti]

This was written by Marcus of Ar.
http://www.silkandsteel.com/3k/marcphil.htm

What do you think?


Throughout the 25 books which make up the chronicles of the Counter-Earth, certain principles and beliefs are often repeated, which the narrator proclaims are widely held by Goreans in general. I have selected several of these, the principles which in my opinion seem to be the foundation for the basic Gorean system of ethics:

1) Be WHAT you are: Similar in many respects to a tenet set forth by the Earth philosopher Marcus Aurelius; namely that each thing which exists possesses its own unique singularity. When a thing attempts to be something it is not, problems arise. A man is a man; a woman is a woman; a tree is a tree; a flower is a flower. To the Gorean mind, it is foolish for anything to assume the properties of another thing.Therefore, each person is required to understand his or her basic nature, and to abide by it. According to such a tenet, therefore, it is assumed that there are needs, desires and activities which are specifically masculine, and those which are specifically feminine. Though the lines may blur at times, when all things are reduced to their basic forms, each thing is appreciated and celebrated for its own uniqueness, and is not forced to assume properties of another, different, thing.


2) Be WHO you are: This tenet applies in regard to a person's existence in society and the caste structure. It takes into account the fact that everyone possesses certain talents and abilities from birth, regardless of their familial caste. Therefore, upon Gor a person is free to alter or raise his or her caste on the basis of ability, though it is rarely done, since most Goreans value their familial caste as a badge of their clan identity. But the above principle also applies in regard to freedom and slavery. To the Gorean mindset, each person is born with a desire for freedom, and an innate slave nature. A person's proper place in society is dependant upon how these two factors are balanced within the personality of that particular Gorean. Most Goreans believe that anyone who has within them a burning desire to exist free of strictures will not suffer slavery, dying rather than submitting to bonditude. A person who has within them a strong slave nature, the desire to be controlled and commanded, will eventually succumb to their inner need to serve others, free of all responsibility to things other than themselves and their service.


3) Obey the Natural Order of things: This tenet applies to the way Goreans view the world around them. They feel it is futile to attempt to disregard the effect of hundreds of generations of evolution. If a creature is naturally genetically equipped to fulfill a specific function in relation to another, then it is considered fitting and proper that such a creature be allowed to do so, even when such natural predisposition might result in stratification. In regards to human beings, it is understood that stronger, more intelligent, and more ambitious human beings will naturally assume a higher social strata in regards to their interaction with the less strong, less intelligent, and less ambitious. In regard to male/female sexual relations, it is therefore the right of the male, who is genetically predisposed for physical dominance, to control the physical aspects of his relationship to the female. In return, he is expected to behave as the hunter/provider, seeing to the protection of the female to insure the propagation of the race. Females, meanwhile, who tend to be smaller and less physically powerful, are expected to respect the biological truths of their lesser physical stature, while making the most of their genetic predisposition to serve and aid the male, and utilizing their superior emotional empathy and long-term endurance to do so while surviving and advancing the species. Not all women, therefore, are slaves, though the female sex is often referred to by males as "the slave sex." Gorean females are simply expected to respect and understand that they are less able in areas requiring raw physical strength than their male counterparts, and adjust their behavior accordingly. When one considers the fact that personal combat to the death is a daily occurrence throughout Gor, such behavior among Gorean women is a wise practice to say the least.


4) Advancement of the Strong: This tenet is similar to that described above; it simply refers to the common Gorean belief that strength, whether it is physical strength, mental strength, or strength of will, should be celebrated and set forth as an example. In this way the Gorean feels he advances the human race, adding to its chances for survival and continued existence.


5) Diminishment of the Causes of Weakness: This principle acts as the inverse to the tenet described above. In order that the human species may grow stronger, it is necessary that the weaker and lesser adaptive elements of Gorean society be carefully controlled and encouraged to grow in strength and adaptability. Anti-social elements are to be excised from society through restriction of citizenship, or confined and rehabilitated. Warfare and enforced captivity are two methods by which this last end is accomplished upon the surface of the planet Gor.


6) Do what you will: This is one of the key principles to Gorean philosophy; basically, it means that every Gorean is expected to strive within the limits of his or her existence to achieve self-fulfillment and lasting happiness. A Warrior may draw his sword and lead an army to conquer a city, if he is strong enough and fit enough to do so. A free woman may attempt to contract a profitable companionship or to build a financial empire, if she is strong enough and clever enough. Even a slave is expected to seek her deepest self-fulfillment within the bonds of her Master's chains. In such a manner, each Gorean is expected to strive and achieve something for the collective
Gorean society, and struggle to attain perfection within the structure of that society. To the Gorean mind, there are always possibilities for advancement no matter what the situation.


7) Responsibility for One's Actions: This tenet is based upon the Gorean concept of basic "cause and effect." It is through the practice of this principle that the rest of the tenets listed above make sense, and function. This is the belief that everyone, no matter how great or humble, chooses the course of his or her destiny. When a warrior
draws his sword, he can expect to suffer the consequences. When a Gorean submits to the bonds of slavery, he or she is expected to acknowledge and accept what occurs afterward. In such a way every choice made by every single Gorean is inextricably bound together with the choices of his or her fellow Goreans in a great interlinking web of cause and effect, a massive net of fate which moves the race forward into the future like an unstoppable juggernaut. Do whatever you want to, but expect it to effect you, either for good or ill. You are responsible for yourself.

Excuses are futile and no one wants to hear them anyway. If you screw up, take your medicine, deal with the situation and move on to the next thing. The basic rules and maxims of the various caste codes and the fundamental principles of Gorean interaction seem to be based mostly upon this concept; this, in effect, is the explanation for
Gorean "cruelty." Goreans are not cruel, they are practical. "That which does not kill them makes them stronger," to paraphrase from Nietzsche. If you wear the collar of a slave, look like a slave, act like a slave, and do not either fight your way to freedom or die in the attempt, then you must really be one. In any case, you most probably
were free at one point... so what happened? You either needed to be a slave, were too weak to stay free, or screwed up really badly somewhere along the way. Whatever the case, deal with it. Life is not fair, and most Goreans are far to practical to try to make it so. Life sucks. If you get hit on the head, don't waste time crying about it... accept it and next time wear a helmet.


8) Stratification by Natural Process: Superior strength-- be it strength of will, strength of body, or strength of mind-- will tend naturally to manifest itself among ordered human groupings. Even particulars such as sexual gender do not universally define how matters of strength are involved in the stratification process. Anyone who is stronger will naturally assume a position of dominance, be it mental or physical, over those weaker or less willing to match themselves in human dominance struggles. Therefore, it is categorically incorrect to assign presumed dominance or blanket superiority over anyone, or any one grouping, within the human condition, since these matters tend to be somewhat situational. While human beings are defined to a great extent by their sex, there is no "dominance gene" nor is there any "submission gene." There are only combinations of heritable genes, each of which will render the individual more prone to certain behaviors than others. These genetic leanings can be circumvented, though typically the act of doing so is costly, both to the individual involved and to the system in which he or she functions.

The final tenet, listed above, has only one interpretation: if anyone, be they male or female, possesses the ability to dominate others, he or she will naturally tend to do so when the opportunity presents itself, even against his or her preexistent genetic propensities. It is when the dominance factor clashes with the biologically engrained sexual selection pressures, and circumvents preprogrammed sexual-based survival behaviors, that the human being becomes, to paraphrase Norman, "a mass of conflicting drives and emotions, more prone to heightened mental stress, physical illness, psychological disease and a substantially shortened lifespan."

Gorean philosophy is, in many cases, a zero-sum equation. A Gorean must look within himself for the strength to contain his emotions, so that he may see with objectivity what is needed and required to bolster the Gorean philosophies and maintain his honor through positive action.

This, then, is my perception of basic Gorean philosophy. It may not seem fair to you, or perhaps even make much sense from your particular point of view, but I doubt most Goreans care. They have little time for debate, as they are too busy living.

To paraphrase the words of a well known Gorean author: An Earthling might very well examine the principles of Gorean philosophy and ask the question: "Why so hard?"

A Gorean would probably shrug, examine the principles of modern Earth philosophy, and answer with the question: "Why so soft?"


p.s. I hope you boys appreciate how hard it was for me to resist to paint this whole thing pink, but I didnt, for your reading conveniance, ;).

[goldendawn]

i didn't realize silkandsteel was still around, it was one of the websites that educated me about Gor.

[denuseri]

Goldendawn:

Honest to goodness I havent ever been to or heard of silkandsteel, but other than a brief stint on alt.com a few years ago i had rarely if ever went online up till last october.

It was rather funny when I first got here I didnt know what an "online" gorean even was and i was quite offended when i found out. lol.

Damyanti:

As for the post you quoted from Marcus of Ar, at first glance it sounds right on target, alltough I would have to defer to my husband as he is much more knowledgeable than I on this subject.

I have only read the whole series once.

He has studdied it since he was 12 years old. My tutelage in Gorean beliefs as they apply here on earth is primaraly derived from his verbal instruction.

and ps....i love pink lol

[damyanti]

[B][I][COLOR="Pink"]Damyanti:

As for the post you quoted from Marcus of Ar, at first glance it sounds right on target, alltough I would have to defer to my husband as he is much more knowledgeable than I on this subject.

I have only read the whole series once.

He has studdied it since he was 12 years old. My tutelage in Gorean beliefs as they apply here on earth is primaraly derived from his verbal instruction.

and ps....i love pink lol

I love pink too, but boys complained it isnt good for essays. And we all know how good and obedient I am....lmao.

I posted the extract here, beacuse I found it interesting. And like I said its what I thought this thread was meant to be about, discussing Gorean philosophies, not whether or not they have a right to exist and whether or not books are good or bad, :rolleyes:.

So I hoped to bring the thread back on treck, and I am honestly interested what people here have to say about it. Its an interesting topic. Sorry if I overstepped.

[orchidsoul]

I continue to love this thread.

Goldendawn- your words are absolutely beautiful. We can all only wish to find our most inner peace.

Denuseri- you continue to show your soul and pride. Always with meaning behind your words. It doesn't matter necessarily the vocabulary, or specific beliefs that I may follow because some of these exerpts (like the one below) if I change a few words to more familiar terms... are very relative to my life as well. In fact, there's something so empowering about this quote. It instills confidence and the desire to strive regardless of what we strive for.

'"There is a difference' laughed Hassan, 'between the pride of a free woman and the pride of the slave girl. The pride of a free woman is the pride of a woman who feels herself to be the equal of a man.
The pride of the slave girl is the pride of the girl who knows that no other woman is the equal of herself.' " Tribesmen of Gor, page 333

Damyanti- That's a really interesting excerpt. Most concepts within aren't very foreign at all (regardless if people subscribe to natural order and selection) and in fact, some are beneficial reminders of the importance of being true to ourselves- again, regardless of that direction.

And so I'm learning that as I've taken many lessons out of many books whether religious, fictitious, or historical, so too am I now taking lessons out of Gor books (truly, honestly something I never thought I'd say-no offense). As with any exerpt, it's how we interpret and shape these lessons to make sense for our selves.

You've all really shown me a different side than my preconceived notions of Gorean practices. Thank you.

[goldendawn]

[QUOTE=denuseri;725735]Goldendawn:

Honest to goodness I havent ever been to or heard of silkandsteel, but other than a brief stint on alt.com a few years ago i had rarely if ever went online up till last october.

It was rather funny when I first got here I didnt know what an "online" gorean even was and i was quite offended when i found out. lol.

When i first came online, more years ago than i care to count (lol), i didn't know what bdsm was ...period. i'd been introduced to it in practice by past boyfriends who didn't bother to share with me their "long term intentions". It wasn't until i was about 25 that i found a name, a label, for what i had become...a submissive. Later still before i found the freedom of a kajira.

i did begin my actual studies online but took it further to real life when online became unfulfilling. There comes a time when you feel like you'll crawl out of your skin if you don't take action.

my first attempt at a real life live in D/s relationship with consent was very loving and satisfying and my heart ached when it ended. The void was back. My second attempt with a Dom, was satisfying until i discovered the lies, He was married. My third attempt as a live in real time kajira, was satisfying and fulfilling emotionally, if not physically, until i discovered my tpe relationship left me $30,000 in debt and i was living in fear of being "sold" to one of His friends. i gave wholly of myself and perfected my being so in depth, i was blind sided by His betrayal.

Experience is the reason i left my lifestyle for many years. To give of yourself so completely with so much trust, as is necessary of a kajira living in today's world, well...the fall was a hard one.

This is the reason i stress being cautious. To be trained as kajira, is to learn to give of yourself freely, without reservation. It does take time before the switch clicks, but once it does, you can never go back. The Gor philosophies, lifestyle if you will, does not differ much from other lifestyle elements of TPE, save for one thing...you. My Gor Master took His time with me, over 2 years. Some predators are patient.

While it is said that this can happen in any relationship, which it can, it is especially "easy" if you will, once a girl clicks to kajira.

i now shy away from being kajira because of it. It doesn't change who i am, and i find myself slipping into the mindset at the oddest times, especially when in the presence of a strong Man or a strong Woman for that matter. It just happens, even though i'm stronger than either....inside.

This life can be beautiful and while i was immersed in my ignorance, i bloomed in my freedom. i became "perfection" if only for a short time. i miss that deeply.

This life can also be devastating to those in the wrong mind set, for those who have emotional problems, for those with self esteem issues, for those who do not love themselves the way no other can love them. i've seen women brought to the brink of suicide and sadly beyond because they could not see that their perfection was inside of them, not outside. They didn't understand the nuances of their femininity. Gor will either free you or destroy you, it's as simple as that, and you find that living in the now or in the books. You find a Gor "Master" who is not true and you walk an edge. You find one who holds Truth, and you will bloom.

[denuseri]

"Do not ask the stones or the trees how to live , they can not tell you ; they do not have tongues, do not ask the wise man how to live for, if he knows, he will know he cannot tell you; if you would learn how to live, do not ask the question, its answer is not in the question but in the answer, which is not in words; do not ask how to live, but, instead, proceed to do so."
Marauders of Gor - Page 9

Goldendawn: My own bad time happened amazingly before I embraced my inner kajira, since then i have found real strength.

I would have to say that weather or not one truely embraces Gorean philosophies, that there are many who prey on submissives, I am if anything less likely to fall those types of people now.

Without truth honor and love any relationship is dommed; Gorean or otherwise.

[AdrianaAurora]

I posted the extract here, beacuse I found it interesting. And like I said its what I thought this thread was meant to be about, discussing Gorean philosophies, not whether or not they have a right to exist and whether or not books are good or bad, :rolleyes:.


Not in favor of burning books myself, but comparing Gor to Bible is a bit of a stretch. The Bible is a religious book, meant to be a moral guideline (on Earth).
Gor series is a work of fiction, it was never meant to be taken as something more. There is no Gor.

I mean no disrespect, sentiments of those who consider themselves Goreans are very real. And very valid. But so are moral principals of those whom we call Trekkies. Its all very romantic - Doesn't change the fact, that Qo'noS doesn't exist, that Gor doesn't exist - and no matter how many times you call yourself Gorean, you are not one. When was the last time you were on a Space Ship?

[denuseri]

"In ancient Attica it is said there was a giant, Procrustes. He would seize upon travelers and tie them upon an iron bed. If the traveler was too short for the bed, he would disjoint and break their bodies until they fitted it; if they were too long for the bed, he would cut their feet from them, until they, again, fitted the bed. Perhaps the bed of Procrustes is the truth and men must be broken or cut to pieces that they may fit it. On the other hand, clearly there is an alternative, although Procrustes seemed not to have heard of it. The bed could be made to fit the guest. Is the bed to conform to the guest, or the guest to conform to the bed. From my own point of view, I would prefer a bed which considered the nature of human beings. I would make the human being the measure by which I judged the value of the beds. I see little of profit in making the bed the measure of the human being, and requiring that we remake, if by torture and mutilation, the human being until it fits the bed. Besides, we cannot remake the human being to fit the bed, truly. We do not make new human beings or better human beings by this method. All we make by that method is broken or mutilated human beings."
Rogue of Gor - Page 107


<<<is wondering who would compare the Gor series to the bible and why they would, unless they are trying to say that we Goreans are somehow religious?

As for what the books were ment for:

Norman allready expressed his views on the phenomenon that developed in response to his books, i took the liberty of posting his letter earlier in the thread. If you would like I can repost it again for clarity's sake?

I seriously doubt you personally know what the author of any work is truely thinking when they write it unless they themselves tell you. Those who practice literaly analyasis may like to think they know , but infering from a text is fraught with the cold fact that the analyist cannot read the authors mind and many authors indeed dont just sit down and write thier little heart literally out; despite what overly romantic english teachers may wish to think.

I believe most people take what philosophy and moral ideals from where they find them as opposed to only seeking ethical guildence from the narrow confines of those "books"that are labeled or defined by some as being for that purpose.

Respectfully made or not: To say one should only get thier knowledge from "approved" (by who you?) scources is rather indicative of a feeble attempt at censorship or a not so vieled jibe at the people who have chosen to find knowledge where they will as opposed to where others say they should. Makes me think about the Council of Nicene and how a third of the different Christian sects at the time were told: "belive it this way or else."

I understand this may not have been your intention Adriana though I do sence a certian hostility in the force (best yoda voice i could muster)

Saying I am Gorean is no different than my saying I am a Epicurian, or a Stoic, or a Machialvellian, or a Trekker (the hardcore ones hate the term trekkie btw)or a Trancendentalist (which i am btw also a trancendentalist as well as a Nietchian),So when I say I am a Gorean I am a Gorean and nothing you try to say otherwise can take that from me no matter how much you may wish it too..

Plato's Republic may not have phisically existed, but plenty of people believed in it's principles and still do.

In less of course it is your intention to take it out of context and imply that by saying that those calling themselves Goreans are saying its the same as being a Christian or a buddist? (smh) Which is it I wonder? If it is that way then i am in a quandary as my religion is Bahai, and my philosophy is composed from many scources, gor being the most relevant one to this discussion.

If that were the case I would be preaching about whorsehiping the dieities mentioned in the Gor books wouldnt I??? I mean wouldnt I be saying somthing about the PriestKings and how they will fix all our woes here on earth ? Spouting out on street corners how its Gor not God who is coming for the apocolypse? I would hope you were above such tactics.

The obvious reason I am talking about Gor instead of Star Wars or Star Trek (both of which expouse some also buetiful philosophies) is becuase they dont deal with D/s or M/s or bdsm the Gor does(well Return of the Jedi might arguably alude to bdsm perhaps with the Prinsess Leia slave girl scene lol).



As for the spaceship jibe its not even worth responding to seriously and goes to show what kind of discrimination Goreans have to put up with so in a way I should thanku for personifing it... as it gives me an oppertunity to show everyone of one type of peer pressure we put up with on a daily basis.


Gor has a following of vannila as well as bdsm practicioners that have adopted the principles expoused in the books for thier own use.

Where ever there be people who follow the virtue eithics expoused by Norman in the Gor books...

...then there be Goreans.


We are here, we exist and we are not going to disapear just becuase some people choose to discriminate against us or twist what we stand for into lies, or otherwise try to demonize or diminish our philosophy.

[AdrianaAurora]

You sure have an ability to read into things I have not said or thought. And I wasn't speaking about philosophies or that Gor books are bad or demonizing anything. I quite like the books, they make for a nice masturbatory fantasy and as with all books we pick and choose what we take from them in spiritual/philosophy sense. That said, while he does make some nice catch phrases, all in all books philosophy is of the simplistic "fast food" kind. And its by no mean unique, I have hundreds of bodice rippers whose "philosophy" is just as "substantial" and written on similar "principles", some even date long before Norman came along.

"Its all very romantic - Doesn't change the fact, that Qo'noS doesn't exist, that Gor doesn't exist - and no matter how many times you call yourself Gorean, you are not one," means that you are not an inhabitant of Gor and that to try to live out the fantasy literally is impossible and here, on Earth, ends badly. Like it happened to Goldendawn. If Gor existed, if her master was Gorean - it never would have happened on Gor.

Everytime, in human history, that someone tried to recreate some kind of Utopia, it never worked - because we are humans.

Kajira is supposed to give all of herself in a way its impossible to afford to do so here on Earth. To speak in "pink" terms to girls about it - is setting them up for abuse. You have to teach them caution! Why? Because their Masters are not Goreans, but men of Earth.

My husband spent considerable part of His life in China. He speaks several of Chinese languages, our house is in good part decorated in "Chinese" style, He subscribes to Chinese philosophy - but He is not Chinese.

When I see people dress up, give themselves "titles" such as Ubar or subscribe to some "cool" ideology. I have nothing against it, neither do I wish to make it stop exist. But when they wake up Monday morning and go back to their day job, makes me, :rolleyes:.

Subscribing to "pick and choose" parts of Books philosophy does not make one Gorean. That is not the same as saying that those principles are wrong. But I do get it why some earlier posters had a problem and seen it as an attempt of literal application of Gorean attitude toward women into reality on Earth.

You are not the only "Gorean". Just look at the Internet and all that is out there. They are no less "Gorean" than you. In fact you seem to be rather unique, or in a small group in your interpretation - so when I read what the majority says, it just makes me :rolleyes: and want to ask them - yeah, kajira when was the last time you stood on the block or walked naked down the street dressed into silks or addressed all free men as master?


The main purpose of slave garments, of course, is not particularly to clothe the girl, for she need not even be clothed, as she is an animal, but to, as I have suggested, "set her off."
Guardsman of Gor, Page 108

Slave girls, on Gor, address all free men as master, though, of course, only one such would be her true master.
Nomads of Gor, page 60

Perhaps it should be added that the Gorean Master, though often strict, is seldom cruel. The girl knows, if she pleases him, her lot will be an easy one. She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty, for the psychological environment that tends to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor. This does not mean that she will not expect to be beaten if she disobeys, or fails to please her Master. On the other hand, it is not to unusual a set of compartments on Gor where the Master in effect, willingly wears the collar, and his lovely slave, by the practice of the delightful wiles of her sex, with scandalous success wheedles her way triumphantly from the satisfaction of one whim to the next.
Outlaw of Gor, page 53-54

[Kuskovian]

Back we go again to the misconseptions.

"You sure have an ability to read into things I have not said or thought. "

Then why did you say them I wonder?

Why do you say things like the philosophy in question is of the fast food variety? If it is not your intention to belittle it? I suspect the truth behind your motivations speaks far more to some other need.

I don't recall anywhere us saying that it is a fantasy life we are professing to live. Nor have we professed any utopian standards.

We do teach caution. A great deal of it.

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15730


"My husband spent considerable part of His life in China. He speaks several of Chinese languages, our house is in good part decorated in "Chinese" style, He subscribes to Chinese philosophy - but He is not Chinese"

Perhaps not but he could be a Taoist or a Buddist, I see you failed to read my pets words before .

"Saying I am Gorean is no different than my saying I am a Epicurian, or a Stoic, or a Machialvellian,"

The terminology is not dependent upon birth in the sence that we are speaking of.

"When I see people dress up, give themselves "titles" such as Ubar or subscribe to some "cool" ideology. I have nothing against it, neither do I wish to make it stop exist. But when they wake up Monday morning and go back to their day job, makes me,."

Another not so vieled attempt to infer something derogatory I take it? You presume much if you presume this about us.

Fortunately you are not the final authority on who is Gorean and who is not.

The main purpose of slave garments, of course, is not particularly to clothe the girl, for she need not even be clothed, as she is an animal, but to, as I have suggested, "set her off."
Guardsman of Gor, Page 108

This quote applies quite nicely in the hypothetical setting of Norman's books, but has little basis in real life here on earth outside of clothing having the dual role of function in survival as well as asthetics.

Slave girls, on Gor address all free men as master, though, of course, only one such would be her true master.
Nomads of Gor, page 60



I guess you failed to see that part.

"Perhaps it should be added that the Gorean Master, though often strict, is seldom cruel. The girl knows, if she pleases him, her lot will be an easy one. She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty, for the psychological environment that tends to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor. This does not mean that she will not expect to be beaten if she disobeys, or fails to please her Master. The part above is correct for any healthy D/s relationship
On the other hand, it is not to unusual a set of compartments on Gor where the Master in effect, willingly wears the collar, and his lovely slave, by the practice of the delightful wiles of her sex, with scandalous success wheedles her way triumphantly from the satisfaction of one whim to the next." If you futher read the text on this part he is speaking of what happens when a man is weak with his girl.
Outlaw of Gor, page 53-54

As such is the case in any relationship. The danger following Gorean principles isnt in the principles, it is in the misinterpetation of how they are to be followed if at all. That is why we like all people absorb what is aplicable to our own lives. We live on earth not gor, so we chose those things that can be condusive to a life on earth. If a man truely does follow these ways he wont be sadistic or wanton in his cruelty. He will instead seek to cultivate his rare prizes submission with the greatest of care.

[Torq]

OK,,ALLLLL

I see its that time again for my "FAIR WARNING"

Please if you wish to comment in this thread make 100% sure you,,,,,,

STAY ON TOPIC

There will be NO name calling or direct comments to or about one-another,,,,

ALLLL Opinions welcome ABOUT THE TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First and Final Warning PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Be Well

T

[Ragoczy]

As I continue to read this thread and the negative comments and criticisms, I find myself regularly asking: "Who cares? What difference does that make?"

I think this is because it was fairly self-evident to me from the start that we aren't talking about a single "Gorean" philosophy -- there's no Pope of Gor setting doctrine and issuing edicts -- we're talking about how Kuskovian and Denuseri have adapted the base ideas to their lives. Just as thousands (tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands (?)) of others have -- each, group or individual, in different ways. In my opinion, it's really Kuskodenuserigorean Philosophy that they're trying to relate.

No, they don't call it that, but neither does the follower of any philosophy preface every comment they make about it with "in my interpretation of". Isn't that somewhat obvious?

So from that perspective, I simply don't understand some of the criticisms offered.

What difference does it make that source of Gor is fiction?

One of my favorite books is Jonathan Livingston Seagull. I take to heart the philosophy that we, each of us, has the potential for greatness within if we apply ourselves and persevere. I do not, however, believe in talking seagulls who break the sound barrier; I accept the reality that seagulls are flying rats. It doesn't make the philosophy any less relevant or meaningful to me.

What difference does it make that Norman may or may not be misogynistic or insane?

Volkswagen was Hitler's idea. Sometimes good ideas come from crazy people. Further, I'm really impressed with those who can diagnose mental illness based on an individual's fictional writings.

What difference does it make that there are some who apply Gorean aspects to their lifestyles in ways you consider dangerous?

Some "Christians" picket military funerals claiming that every soldier's death is God's punishment on America for tolerating homosexuality -- that doesn't negate the actions of the Southern Baptists who show up at natural disasters with their mobile kitchens to feed those in need.

Within BDSM itself, there are innumerable instances of individuals using the trappings and slogans we accept in order to lure the unsuspecting into dangerous or deadly situations. We don't preface every discussion with reference to them, we don't qualify every reference to "safe, sane, consensual" or RACK with "but they might not mean it and could be dangerous". So why is there so much talk about the dangers here?

What difference does it make if the writing's bad?

I tried reading the Gor books once -- I stopped, because I didn't like the writing style. That's a personal thing about what I choose to do for entertainment, but what on earth does it have to do with how Kuskovian and Denuseri apply the ideas presented their to their own lives?

What difference does it make that "we're not on Gor"?

<sarcasm>Well, duh. </sarcasm>

Like it or not, a significant basis for the BDSM lifestyle is fantasy. We may take it seriously, we may take it as far as we can, but "slave" isn't real in the strict, literal definition of the word -- a literal "slave" can't pick up the phone, dial 911 and get out of it; a literal "slave" can't end the relationship by choice. So criticism on the basis of fantasy of those who chose to live by philosophies of Gor are somewhat ridiculous -- especially because those espousing their beliefs here don't claim to be living on Gor, they claim to be living by philosophies they've adapted to their lives here.

If anything, they seem to have created a more "real", less "fantasy", lifestyle than many in the BDSM community.

Does it really matter that they call themselves "Gorean"?

No, they're not from Gor. Do they claim to be? "Gorean" doesn't have to mean "from Gor", it can also mean "a follower of that philosophy". I'd think the word "philosophy" in the thread title would make that clear. From what I've read of their postings, it's also clear that they don't pretend something on the weekend and then change for work on Monday -- they've created a lifestyle that works for them interacting with other "Goreans" (sans any spaceships) and with traditional society. That adaption doesn't mean they take their philosophy any less seriously, simply that they're not imposing it on others.

They've created a world-view based on the writings about Gor -- that does make them "Goreans", just as creating a world-view based on the writings of Christ makes one a Christian. Yes, I'm aware Gor isn't a religion, the comparison is still valid.

Okay, fine, call it Kuskodenuserigoreanism, if you must -- but the base is "Gorean", just as Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic all roll up to Christian. There's typically no need to be that specific.

What difference does it make that there are crazies who call themselves "Goreans"?

BDSM in general has plenty of crazies -- does that make the traditional society that condemns all of us right to do so? The crazies don't have a lot to do with Kuskodenuserigoreanism -- unless you think the two of them are nuts -- so why is it any more relevant to this discussion than the "regular" BDSM crazies are to every discussion here?

[denuseri]

Thank you so much for your kind and insightful words Ragoczy.

[Kuskovian]

Yes Ragoczy, you have found the meat of it quite well.

For that I thank you.

[Thorne]

Ragoczy
At last, a well written, sane, rational explanation which is not offensive to anyone. Well done!

But I'll bet you're going to be castigated here!

[Torq]

doubtful,, very doubtful

T

[goldendawn]

The purpose of this thread is to initiate a discussion on Gorean philosophies as well as educate the Gor curious as to what it is that we who identify with Gor are all about. I can assure you it's not all about playing Conan the Barbarian on second life lol.

denuseri stated the purpose clearly in her initial posting.

As far as the mentioning of some dangers involved with the lifestyle and that it has no place in discussion here...i've to say this...it is part of educating the Gor curious. Just as if speaking with a friend who is curious about the BDSM lifestyle...one would not only speak of the good but of the danger involved as well, in order to educate and provide as much information as needed to give the friend a chance at staying safe and finding a safe, sane and consentual relationship, be it based on Gorean Philosophy or not. i would not send my sister into the lifestyle without making sure she hears some of the pitfalls to avoid.

For those who have been lifestyle a long while and have gotten their feet wet, so to speak, the warnings can be an irritation as they are spouted left right and center each way we turn. But... to those that may not have stepped in the puddle yet...warnings may prevent another abuse from happening that would further the misconception that those who follow Gorean philosophy are all crazies.

i was under the impression that this thread is for discussion about Gorean Philosophy from those who have lived it, are curious about it or are living it currently. While Master Kuskovian and His denuseri began this thread with their own insights, it doesn't say in the initial post that this thread is limited to their specific practice of it.

No two practice BDSM exactly the same way just as no two practice Gorean philosophy exactly the same way. While i personally may choose a balance of my own, i would not be so arrogant as to say anothers balance is wrong. Who knows? In time, i may change my own balance to incorporate some of their practices that i once was foolish enough to condemn.

Gorean Interpretations are widespread. There is no narrow window that makes one practice right while another is wrong. Right for some, not right for others, doesn't make either incorrect.

Ragoczy speaks of there not being literal slaves today from the view point of a Dominant who is true. i understand this and if everyone in the lifestyle were true there would be no need for warnings.

In my own service as kajira, i submitted to total power exchange. i did not work outside of His home; i did not meet anyone He didn't approve of first; i was not permitted outside the residence without Him in attendance. The reference that slaves today may call 911 or leave of their own volition is a valid point, if one can manage to get to a phone. (a little difficult if under extreme discipline when the phone is disengaged and one is tied extended periods of time and under watch the rest of the time). There are always lapses occassionally and that is how i left of my own free will. To say that slaves today are not literal shows a bit of naivete. Some situations, yes it is true. Other situations, other lifestyle choices do create literal slaves in every sense of the word. Can a slave choose to leave? Absolutely, just as in history slaves ran away when they got the chance, just as in the books, some slaves escaped. Is it always a matter of saying "Thanks, this was fun but i'm leaving now" and walk out the door... in a perfect world, yes it would be. Todays "slave" does make a choice at the beginning to accept a position as slave. So in that sense, yes it is consentual and that makes it a fantasy to begin with and after a time in service the slavery can become quite real and literal. So this is where todays slavery is different. A first choice and then sometimes, no choice.

Gorean Philosophies of natural human behaviors are beautiful and have the ability to set one free. Gender roles were defined and simple. If we all could simple down and get back to basics we'd see more of this simplistic balance in our lives.

In todays world there is much confusion, Men and women both, never knowing what is acceptable, what will offend, what will be politically incorrect. The role of women today is hazy. We must function as Men were designed to hunt and gather and provide for our family while flipping our hats and also trying to nuture. i find this hard. After working all day aggressively, to then suddenly shut off the dominance and aggression and be loving and supportive is a task i never asked for.

i look at our world today, the "progress" we've made and i wonder how such good ideas went so terribly wrong. Our world is overpopulated and as such is damaging and killing our earth. Our populations are growing unhealthier by the minute because of "progress" that makes our lives easier. Our Men are growing lax due to the technologies that leave their strength obsolete. Our families are declining due to fact that we are losing the ability and desire to take responsibility for another other than ourselves. The ideas of being feminine and female and submissive to another are literally turning into a form of treason and God help those Men who stand up and offer the strength They've somehow managed to retain through it all, for They are then crucified for intimating that a woman might need or want help.

While the Gorean Life as portrayed in the novels may be undesireable to us as a whole; the philosophies contained in the books may lead the way for at least a few us to correct these imbalances within our own homes and hearts. i see nothing wrong with taking the ideals that might just work from anywhere i can get them.

Look at our world today and the philosophies we have adopted in our progress. They are unhealthy.

[goldendawn]

.

[denuseri]

Thanks so much for that goldendawn.

You are very correct, we did want to discuss more than just our own way of doing bdsm and incorperating the philosophies of the books.

As with all philosophies one must be carfeful what they incorperate into thier own lives.

We believe the books and Norman are pretty clear whats acceptable on earth and what is not. One principle from the books we have chosen to emulate is a Gorean respect for the laws of a place. As such we believe one should respect the law. This means one doesnt go about abusing or fully enslaveing anyone, and by enslavement i do mean chattel slavery not the pc bdsm style one that most sane people practice. Additionally we dont believe one should be wantonly cruel or malisious with thier submissive.

TPE is allways a sticky wicket that is all too easily turned from something bueatiful into something ugly. To use somthing from another philosophy: Lets look at Aristotles golden mean. One extreme of TPE would have the submissive in dire straights lacking even the will to think for herself etc, let alone move. The other extreme would be complete and utter freedom or worse the submissive in charge whilst the dom cowers in the oposite extreme. Aristotle said its the middle ground that is best for mankind to follow ergo the "golden mean". Which is what we try to do and what we believe Norman is telling us as human beings is the best way for men and women to exist in harmony.

I am unfortunate in that my first experience with it was allmost my last as it very nearly cost me my life or worse and i am still recovering from it as it was certianly on the far end of the TPE to point of truely being criminal. (i was very lucky to have survived it and be saved by my owner from it)yet becuase my second and current TPE relationship i am in now is a very wonderful one I am very happy. I work , I go to school, I am under his will, yet i am under my own voalition in following his will while out and about. In effect I am allowed to thrive.

I am not saying it is wrong for some people, only that we dont believe the books even remotely promote such a type of total enslavment as especially for people on earth, gorean or otherwise.

One can never warn people enough to be safe and careful in thier dealings. Trust is a vital commodity, especially in bdsm. Too many would be dominants embrace a false sence of sadism to the exclusion of the responsibility that is inhierent with assuming dominion over a submissive.

[Ragoczy]

Ragoczy speaks of there not being literal slaves today from the view point of a Dominant who is true. i understand this and if everyone in the lifestyle were true there would be no need for warnings.

In my own service as kajira, i submitted to total power exchange. i did not work outside of His home; i did not meet anyone He didn't approve of first; i was not permitted outside the residence without Him in attendance. The reference that slaves today may call 911 or leave of their own volition is a valid point, if one can manage to get to a phone. (a little difficult if under extreme discipline when the phone is disengaged and one is tied extended periods of time and under watch the rest of the time). There are always lapses occassionally and that is how i left of my own free will. To say that slaves today are not literal shows a bit of naivete. Some situations, yes it is true. Other situations, other lifestyle choices do create literal slaves in every sense of the word. Can a slave choose to leave? Absolutely, just as in history slaves ran away when they got the chance, just as in the books, some slaves escaped. Is it always a matter of saying "Thanks, this was fun but i'm leaving now" and walk out the door... in a perfect world, yes it would be. Todays "slave" does make a choice at the beginning to accept a position as slave. So in that sense, yes it is consentual and that makes it a fantasy to begin with and after a time in service the slavery can become quite real and literal. So this is where todays slavery is different. A first choice and then sometimes, no choice.

What I meant to convey is that "slaves" in a normal, healthy BDSM-context are not literal slaves -- not that literal slaves don't exist today or that the BDSM concept of slavery could not be abused. In a normal, healthy BDSM-context, there's an element of fantasy in the Master/slave relationship because there's ongoing consent.

In my opinion, what you describe crosses the line from normal-healthy into abuse, and I in no way wish to dismiss or diminish what you and others have gone through.

[Thorne]

In my opinion, what you describe crosses the line from normal-healthy into abuse, and I in no way wish to dismiss or diminish what you and others have gone through.

Well said. The people in this community, especially, have to know where the line between healthy and abusive is drawn. Too many from outside the BDSM community consider anything to do with it as abuse, regardless of consent. There can be no justification for abuse.

[Kuskovian]

Well I for one am all for the (cracks my knuckles) "abusing" or worse; of those creatans that call themselves dominants who have tarnished the precious gift of trust imparted by a submissive unto them.

Dominion comes with the privelege of taking responsibility for the life of another.

One should be ever vigilent that it should never be abused.

Especially by one's self.

[craven]

could not agree more big k, if ever there was a post that i felt 100% aligned to it is yours, well done fella, good to see you, though we dont benefit nearly enough from your wisdom and presence around the forums.

Hope all is well with you and that angel of yours, see you around

[denuseri]

Which brings us to the princilpe of protection and responsibility.

Something my owner so obviously takes very seriously. (which is a good thing or i literally wouldnt be here today)

Its quite simple really:

I give my life to him becuase I know he gives his life for me.

[Ironwulf]

@Ragoczy

I sure wish I had written what you did last week. hahaha

It has always been a struggle for me to try and express the ideas you just laid out for everyone in such a wonderful way.

Thanks

[denuseri]

Anothers views on Gor
The following quotation is taken from

"Ramblings of a kajira"

"Emma's essays, stories, and life experiences."


It is a good example of how I feel about Gorean Philosophies as well in it's practical applications to my own life.

Here is her view in full:

"What is Gorean?

To me, Gor has many different things you can "take" from the books. People always seem to ask me what it means, and I find myself having a difficult time answering specifically what "I" think it means. It means something a little different to everyone I think. It's a philosophy; it's a way to live your life. It's not role play, it's not about fantasy. There is a message behind the science fiction. It's more than Master/slave relationships.

There are over 26 books currently out, another one out due in December 2008 with at least one more planned for release in the future. The author is a philosophy teacher who's spent his whole life studying/writing/reading philosophy. His basic principals are taken from different societies that were present on earth. Such as Greek and Roman.

He wanted to show his version of a utopian society. He threw in some Socrates and other philosophers who had wisdom that he admired. It was more than sex. It was more than a science fiction. It is a way of life. There is a message behind the series of books and this is what it means to me.

Being what you are is simple. If you are not a tree, don't pretend you are a tree. If you are a warrior, be a warrior. If you are not a warrior, don't pretend you are. If you are a dominant woman, be a dominant woman. If you are a slave girl, be a slave girl. Be feminine if you are female, masculine if you are male.

Be what your "nature" intended you to be. It can deviate from the norm and still be "what" you are. It doesn't mean its wrong, pretending to be something you are not is "wrong" if you are going to be "what" you are. I don't believe people are made equal. They may have equal value and worth but we are not "all the same". Everyone is unique and individual.

Being who you are goes along the lines of the previous paragraph. It is possible to change "caste" or "identity" but many feel value their caste and heritage. It's a part of their identity and while they can raise or lower it, they'd rather just be who they are. People can be born with an innate sense of need for freedom, or slavery.

Some are naturally more dominant than others. Some would rather die then submit to servitude or slavery, while others openly embrace it and desire it secretly inside their hearts. The only responsibility a person might have is to their Owner, while their Owner wants the responsibility of property, and service, and control. Being who you are is also being true to your nature.There's a natural order to things. I feel this is valid. This doesn't lesson a person's worth as a human being, but it is true that not everyone is created equal.

Some are more intelligent, some are stronger, some are prettier, and some have special needs or health problems. This doesn't make them less valuable as a human or mean they don't have skills to offer or something they can do in life, but they are not equal or the same. A seven foot tall man is not the same as a five foot tall man.

They are not created "equally" even if both are human males. On Gor, not every man is a warrior. Some are shop keepers, some are slavers, and some are warriors. They all play a part in society, but they do not all do the "same things". Their value to society is worth something, but they are not "equal". Not all women are meant to be slaves.

Some are created for that role and wouldn't thrive otherwise. Not all men desire to be Owners. But I do feel a person should be treated according to how they are, who they are and what their nature dictates. I do believe there is a genetic disposition that is more likely to make a female naturally submissive or eager to please in some ways.

However, again this goes back to the whole being "true" to one's self, and their Nature. There is deviation from the norm and that should be tolerated/accepted too if one is to be Gorean in belief.

The strong are more likely to get ahead in life, or in general. Intellectual strength, emotional strength, strength of will, and physical strength can all play parts in advancement in society structures. That does not mean that those who deviate from the norm don't play a role in society, they do, and it just as valid, though VERY different and not "equal" or "the same."

Adaptability is how people survive. On Gor… and on earth. Adapting to the environment around you doesn't mean you can't be "true" to yourself or who you really are, instead it means adapting to fit in enough to survive and thrive with the environment around you. You can still be yourself, be true to ones nature while still being in a society that tries to constrict personalities and try to make everyone "the" same.

I believe Gorean philosophy is a live and let live. They settle their disputes with swords, or games of kaissa (the earth variety of this game would be chess) or other games of skill or intellect. There is no sneaky, under handed manipulation or deceit. People are just themselves.
Doing what you will and what pleases you.

This is a key part of Gorean philosophy. Everyone on Gor is expected to be self-fulfilled and achieve a level of lasting happiness's and selfishness based on their own desires to do so and skills to achieve it. There is no remorse or pity for those who cannot find a way to do it.

A free woman can find a way to own a business, or even be an Ubara (an earth version of a queen) if she is determined enough to make a good match. Even a slave is expected to find happiness and fulfillment in their life within the bonds of their Master's slave chain.

There is always ability for bettering your life, cause, or situation if you want it bad enough and are determined enough to get it. Personal responsibility; even within the bounds of society's restrictions or a physical chain on your throat as a slave girl you can achieve a level of happiness and success if you want it. There is always a way to better your status and life if you desire it.
Being responsible for one's actions is a huge part of Gorean philosophy and belief.

If a warrior on Gor makes the choice to draw ones sword, he is willing to take the consequences and repercussions for his actions. If a slave girl refuses a command, she takes responsibility knowing she will be punished. If an Ubar decides to go to war, he takes responsibility for his army. There is no reason on earth we can't take personal responsibility for the choices we make.....

.....The personal responsibility for one's own actions is one of the reasons I have so much respect for my Owner, and he for me, even though I am just a slave. When a slave submits to a collar and accepts their bonds, he or she is expected to acknowledge and accept what that means. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Do whatever you want, but realize there are repercussions for anything you do and be willing to take personal responsibility for your choices, Free or slave. You are responsible for yourself, your behavior, and your actions.

If you fuck up, say you fuck up. Don't make excuses, don't lie. Don't blame it on someone else, or age. There is nothing more rewarding, or freeing in life then taking the power of personal responsibility and accepting it.

There is no point in lying, beating around the bush, or trying to deceive or manipulate. Life is not fair. If you don't like it, do something about it.Anyone who is stronger will naturally assume a position of dominance, be it mental or physical, over those weaker or less willing to match themselves in human dominance struggles.

This includes slaves over less strong people (emotionally, physically, mentally or otherwise), free or owned. If you are not strong enough to be in control, So what? It's not a fault, it's a personality. There are genes that make up a person. That will play a part, so will the environment they grow up in.

Some genes however will make a person more likely to exhibit certain traits than other. Or react to the same situation in a different way than a weaker person. Even slaves can be "strong" and often need a strong Master because of this. It doesn't make them less submissive, but who in the world wants to submit to a weak and egotistical Master?

Being Gorean is simple. It is what you make of it.

I wish you well."


I think she sums it up pretty well myself

[walkingdude225]

the books very interresting (even though i am a sub) i do have a few qusetions i want to ask



"A hierarchy of dominion" in which the responsibility of each cast is to seek perfection in thier given craft,
.

Dose that mean that their are many types of masters and slaves....or did i miss something




The powerful dominant males of Gorean society are presented as cruel yet fair, certianly not malicious. Such malicious acts, perversions, crimes,etc.. in fact all our societal woes are presented to be the direct result of our emasculation of male dominance here on earth, brought on by the advent of certian technologies and political mascications.
.

It would be silly to ask is they are female masters and male slaves but im still asking anyways lol
:rolleyes:



I can assure you it's not all about playing Conan the Barbarian on second life lol.

and what is wrong with Conan the Barbarian...I love the wrintings of Robert E. Howard and i think he is underrated lol and what is second life ??? lol

denuseri, dont let these people who dont understand gor get you down:wave: everyone is odd or different in this world if we were not it be a dull life would it not

[denuseri]

I dont know about different types of Masters other than cultural differences presented in the various fictional races of the books, but the types and functions of slaves were portrayed to be many and varied on a catagorical level. Every thing from a kitchen girl, to pleasure or love slave (yes some slaves are trainned specifically to be love slaves and there is a difference between them and a pleasure slave)

For instance some in the bdsm comunity say not all submissives are slaves but all slaves are submisives.

For a Gorean one may say not all pleasures slaves are love slaves, but all love slaves are indeed pleasure slaves.

Though any slave may also work in the kitchen depending on her owners wishes.


And yes there are Domme's and male slaves as well. We even have a real life Gorean Domme thats a member of the site.

There is nothing wrong with Howards work. The Conan refference is speaking about the online virtual reality 3d interactive graphics comunity's (ie: second life) so called "Goreans" that dont nessesarally practice the philosophy of Gor in real life so much as play "fuck the slave girl" on the computer and generally comport themselves in a barbaric manner, who have contributed to the bad reputation many real life philosophy practicing Goreans in the vanilla and bdsm worlds too often are asscoiated with.

:wave:

[walkingdude225]

yes some slaves are trainned specifically to be love slaves and there is a difference between them and a pleasure slave


I hate to sound like a dullered but can you please give eamples of what would be the difference between a love and pleaseure slave? :)


[B][COLOR="Pink"]
And yes there are Domme's and male slaves as well. We even have a real life Gorean Domme thats a member of the site.


cool :d but it seems that a Gorean domme would not be the norm in this lifestyle... is that ture or am i off the mark on this one?


[B][COLOR="Pink"]
so called "Goreans" that dont nessesarally practice the philosophy of Gor in real life so much as play "fuck the slave girl" on the computer and generally comport themselves in a barbaric manner, who have contributed to the bad reputation many real life philosophy practicing Goreans in the vanilla and bdsm worlds too often are asscoiated with.


It really is sad how few rouge people always cause either a pratice or group to get a very bad name. Anyways thanks for anwsering my first post.

[denuseri]

A pleasure slave's primary focus is on the giving of pleasure to those that make or would make "use" of her.

The love slave however has the singular devotion to an inividual owner that exceeds that of any other (slave or free) as her utter soul emcompassing purpose in life. If she is pleasing or gives pleasure to others it is only becuase it also pleases her owner for her to do so.

but I describe being a love slave much better in this other thread, here is the link to it:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15978

Alltough Norman's fictional world of Gor is most deffinetly a male dominated society where even the freest of women are expected to yield to the men, he does in many places present female dominants, in fact according to the books slaves dont make up a very large portion of thier society as a whole. Dommes are no more plentiful there than here.

Gorean women are strong willed creatures, we do not submit easily and if we do so at all willingly it is only to those that we sence to be more dominant than ourselves.

[walkingdude225]

thank you for explaining the two types of slaves

May i ask ; so if a slave can willingly submit to a a preson who is stornger then themselves. Then in theroy can a slave own another slave ( who is weaker then he/she)?

[denuseri]

Often times a slave is put in charge over other slaves.

When I was first introduced to bondage it was under the tutalage of a "First Girl" I was in both theory and practice her slave as much as her Owner's.

So if one wishes to submit to another why not.

Ownership however encompassess somthing far more serious.

Ownership for us is beyound merely being a dominant or a Master or having a submissive kneel before you.

It asumes a matle of great responsibility for the life of another human being in total and requires a much higher level of devotion.

[walkingdude225]

a matle of great responsibility for the life of another human being in total and requires a much higher level of devotion.


What types of responsibility do owners have to their slaves ?

[denuseri]

This is really just a summary and kinda only touches the tip of the iceberg but here goes:

Well for one he protects me.

And not just from threats of the physical world like burgulars etc.

When I fall into subspace and am no longer really fully aware whats going on, he doesnt let me be harmed. And when I am in sub-drop he helps me back out. (only a fool wants to damage his most prized possession)

He guides me in my submission. He teaches me how to please him. How to fully satify his needs as well as my own.

He provides for me.

He respects me and my love for him.

He trusts me.

He comforts me.

He holds me under strict disipline so that I thrive.

He fufills me by holding dominion over me.

He tends me like the most precious garden in the world.

He "owns" me body, mind and soul.

[walkingdude225]

i understand; it actually sound very sweet and very loving so why do goreans get the bad rap ?

[denuseri]

Read the thread from the begining (page one)and you will see.

[RickBulow74]

Thank you for bringing this up, denuseri. I know that when I was sent this link back in 2006 by one who was also in Gor I was told to not bring up the fact I was in Gor lest I be made a laughingstock and one who doeas not take this seriously. There was an article on this topic called Chain Gang that salon.com had done and I do not know if it is still on that site or not but it is good reading too

[denuseri]

lol, too true too true RickBulow74, heck ...

When I first was going to join this site my Owner (who taught me most all I know of being Groean btw) even said I may want to very carefully consider weather or not I should use the title of kajira when refering to myself.

He said it had been his experience that most of the BDSM crowd would look upon me with disdain or as being some kind of freak or wanna be.

I even vacilated a few times in frustration becuase of the way I was outright attacked at first (amazing but true, right in open chat, not to mention nasty pm's), I actually changed my status on my profile and allmost left the place for good. Others however embraced me ,some even were closet Goreans themselves, just unwilling to brave the guantlet, some confided in or praised me for standing up.

So despite my misgivings I barrowed some strength from the others (His Blizzard especially {special thanks to you my elder sister} who showed me being Gorean was what mattered in my heart and not what others might say or think) and recieved my Owners support and blessing to stay and be proud of what and who I am.

Mabey even put some of that "Ahhhhhhh! back in La Kajira"

[walkingdude225]

so let me get this stairt the gorean life stlye is a lifestyle in which the owner and slave are bounded to each other ( which both duties to be followed by both slave and owner). Yet, because of a few odd balls and misundestanding it is hated... am i on the right track

[denuseri]

Pretty much, I know their are more than a few haters out there still, alltough most of them made their apperance in early on when the books were first published, proponents of feminism were among the number one detractors for various reasons.

But it's often the case that people all too easily fall into hate when it comes to something they don't really understand. Though hate is mabey a rather strong word, most just didn't understand it's core principles and assumed it was automatically about what it's primary detractors haranged against it unjustly.

And yes according to Gorean philosophical precepts every one dom/ sub or otherwise has a duty to preform to each other as well as themselves (as previously mentioned in the thread) in such a manner that is both true and honorable.

[hopperboo]

Ahh...

I am reading the first book in the Gor series...(yes, I am aware this isn't exactly a thread "on the books,") but.... I had to mention this. So, I am reading the beginning of the chapter with the spiders - I HATE SPIDERS - and...you will never freaking believe what was on the table next to me. A wolf spider. I almost freaking died.

It was being extremely crappy and not letting me smush it into a thousand little bits too, but I finally killed it with a hardcover book.

*Still shuddering.*

Okay sorry, back on topic.

[denuseri]

LMAO Hopper

Hugs and Kissess Boo,

ps:and where did you find an actual book? or is it an e-book?

[hopperboo]

I ordered it from B&N. :) They said the books are printed on demand, not available until they are paid for.

[walkingdude225]

I ordered it from B&N. :) They said the books are printed on demand, not available until they are paid for.

that sucks but thanks for the info

[hopperboo]

Nah, it doesn't suck at all. I ordered this...not even a week ago and I got the book today.

Pretty sweet actually.

[denuseri]

I am gonna start getting them ordered for my hubby, his collection was destroyed by a huricane

[walkingdude225]

Ture, can i ask what is the first book

[denuseri]

Sure thing sweetie,

They can be ordered online or from the store desk through Barnes & Noble and in most cases delievred right to your door.

Here is a list of the books:

John Norman's Chronicles of Gor in the order written

Tarnsman of Gor
Outlaw of Gor
Priest-Kings of Gor
Nomads of Gor
Assassin of Gor
Raiders of Gor
Captive of Gor
Hunters of Gor
Marauders of Gor
Tribesmen of Gor
Slave Girl of Gor
Beasts of Gor
Explorers of Gor
Fighting Slave of Gor
Rogue of Gor
Guardsman of Gor
Savages of Gor
Blood Brothers of Gor
Kajira of Gor
Players of Gor
Mercenaries of Gor
Dancer of Gor
Renegades of Gor
Vagabonds of Gor
Magicians of Gor
Witness of Gor

with the 27th book Prize of Gor due for release in December of 2008

Also by Norman

The Telnarian Histories

The Chieftain
The Captain
The King

Historical fiction

Time Slave
Ghost Dance

Nonfiction

Imaginative Sex

The Cognitivity Paradox: "An Inquiry Concerning the Claims of Philosophy" written as John Lange

[walkingdude225]

cool i'll start buying one at a time (im tight on cash right now)

[sinderella]

my introduction into the world of Dominance and submission was at the hands of a Gorean Master, and at first i thought it was kind of unusual to have a whole way of life sparked from fiction, but these people had their own sets of rules and protocols, and from what i heard, Gorean Masters were very strict...i was being groomed to belong to Him exclusively, although many readily shared their subbies, each could 'pick and choose' whatever tenets they wanted to, and he was not willing to share me with anyone, although i found out later on he had other subs, which i was unaware of and who he shared freely with other Doms.

one thing i thought was fascinating was that Gorean women could not bind (braid) their hair...it was a sign of disrespect. so, of course i am kind of a tester sometimes, so i met Him for lunch and wore my hair in braids. He looked at me with that look and it was not an appreciative one, rather, one that said 'ok, i see what you are trying to do' and i got punished deliciously for that. but He did tell me in all seriousness never to do that again, so i never did.

anyway i found their world fascinating...they even had their own music.

[denuseri]

In the books everything from mannerisms, clothing, forms of speach, etc etc, all the way to yes, the hair is often done differently between free and slave.

It is actually in the books very common for Free Gorean Women to braid thier hair.

Only slaves in most of the cultures presented on Gor are commonly forbidden the braid.

It is one way to draw a distinction between the slave and the free.

Music is also described and it's importantance to many different cultures in the fictional setting of the books is addressed numerous times. Some descriptions are so detailed people have actually been able to create postulated instruments based upon them.

The music itself however is impossible to reproduce. Norman didnt give us any sheet music, all we have to go on is his discriptions of various themes, which varied from culture to culture, just like they do here on earth.

[sinderella]

i had one of those songs one time, and put in on my web site (which is no more)....i think it was called 'magic traveler', as i recall. it was a really nice work; very melodic and nicely flowing - pan flute and nice percussion. i should have preserved the file because i lost it when that computer died :(

[denuseri]

Now there are some other areas where one would think infering from the text that Gorean bdsm practicioners differ from the rest of us that have not yet been discussed. The following may seem paradoxical at first as we into bdsm use pain as a way of achieving pleasure, but bear with me. Look at this quote from the books:

"The major point of the restraint is to restrain not hurt. Indeed, pain can interfere with many of the diverse subsidiary values of restraints, physical and psychological. It can be distractive. Pain is a bit like the whip. The slave is subject to the whip, and truly subject to it, but this does not mean that she is necessarily whipped; that she could be whipped, and will be whipped, if she is not pleasing, is what is important, not that she need be whipped. Why should one beat a pleasing slave?"

Renegades of Gor - Page 327

Does it sound like Goreans shouldnt whip thier slaves for play purposes now?

Or is it ok becuase both the submissive and Master in our society derives pleasure from the act?

[walkingdude225]

In the books everything from mannerisms, clothing, forms of speach, etc etc, all the way to yes, the hair is often done differently between free and slave.

It is actually in the books very common for Free Gorean Women to braid thier hair.

Only slaves in most of the cultures presented on Gor are commonly forbidden the braid.

It is one way to draw a distinction between the slave and the free.

Music is also described and it's importantance to many different cultures in the fictional setting of the books is addressed numerous times. Some descriptions are so detailed people have actually been able to create postulated instruments based upon them.

The music itself however is impossible to reproduce. Norman didnt give us any sheet music, all we have to go on is his discriptions of various themes, which varied from culture to culture, just like they do here on earth.

Thanks for the clear up :)

[denuseri]

"The needs of human beings are a matter of biology. The values in a culture are the values of certain men. Many people take the values of their culture for granted, as though they were somehow a part of the furniture of the universe. They should realize that the values they are taught are the values of particular men, and often, unfortunately, of men who, long ago, were short-lived, ignorant, uninformed, unhealthy and quite possibly of unsound mind. Perhaps human beings should, from the viewpoints of contemporary information and modern medicine, re-evaluate those perhaps anachronistic value structures. Values need not be something one somehow mysteriously 'knows,' a result of having forgotten the conditioning process by means of which they were instilled, but could be something chosen, something selected as instruments by means which to improve human life. It is not wrong for human beings to be happy."

- EXPLORERS OF GOR, Pg. 361-362


"'Beyond Good and Evil' begins a new phase of Nietzsche's work, focusing on the 'revaluation of all values' and an explicit 'critique of modernity.' The book attacks the dogmatism that has afflicted philosophy so far, particularly regarding the nature of truth and morality. Philosophers' pretense to objectivity is just a pose. In fact, any philosophy of morality is an 'unconscious and involuntary memoir' of the person who presents it.

Nietzsche calls for 'new philosophers' who would create new values through a process of open-minded experimentation. The philosopher, accordingly, has a significant political role, directing cultural development. Nietzsche urges philosophers to articulate an outlook that is 'beyond good and evil,' in other words, beyond the simplistic, judgmental moral categories employed as basic terms in the Christian worldview. While the articulation of new values is a challenging ambition, it is not an impossible dream. Moral values have already historically changed along with circumstances, so they are clearly malleable."

From - What Nietzsche Really Said Pg. 76-77
- Robert Solomon & Kathleen Higgins

[RickBulow74]

"Do not ask the stones or the trees how to live , they can not tell you ; they do not have tongues, do not ask the wise man how to live for, if he knows, he will know he cannot tell you; if you would learn how to live, do not ask the question, its answer is not in the question but in the answer, which is not in words; do not ask how to live, but, instead, proceed to do so."
Marauders of Gor - Page 9



Without truth honor and love any relationship is dommed; Gorean or otherwise.


denuseri, you had just mentioned my favorite quote and one that needs to be repeated over and over here. In fact, Marauders is my favorite book because it is here, as we see in the end of the book, where Tarl finally comes around and accepts that he is no longer of earth but of Gor.


My delirium this time, interestingly to me, had been much different than it had when, long ago, the poison had first raged in my body. At that time I had been miserable, and weak, even calling out to a woman, who was only a slave, to love me. But, somehow, in the north, in Torvalds¬land, I had changed. This I knew. There was a different Tarl Cabot than ever there had been. Once there had been a boy by this name, one with simple dreams, naive, vain, one shat¬tered by a betrayal of his codes, the discovery of a weakness where he had thought there was only strength. That boy had died in the delta of the Vosk; in his place had come Bosk of Port Kar, ruthless and torn, but grown into his manhood; and now there was another, one whom I might, if I wished, choose to call again Tarl Cabot. I had changed. Here, with the Forkbeard, with the sea, the wind, in his hall and in battle, I had become, somehow, much different. In the north my blood had found itself, learning itself, in the north I had learned strength, and how to stand alone. I thought of the Kurii. They were terrible foes. Suddenly, in¬credibly, I felt love for them. I recollected the head of the giant Kur. mounted on its stake, in the ruins of the hall of Svein Blue Tooth. One cannot be weak who meets such beasts. I laughed at the weaknesses instilled into the men of Earth. Only men who are strong, without weakness, can meet such beasts. One must match them in strength, in in¬tellect, in terribleness, in ferocity. In the north I had grown strong. I suddenly realized the supreme power of the united Gorean will, not divided against itself, not weak, not crip¬pled like the wills of Earth. I telt a surge of power, of un¬precedented, unexpected joy. I had discovered what it was to be Gorean. I had discovered what it was, truly, to be male, to be a man. I was Gorean.

MARAUDERS OF GOR p. 289-90

Very lively discussion and I so enjoyed seeing Marcus of Ar being mentioned as when I first started out on Gor I had heard of him and printed out most of his works so I can read offline. I still have them to this day too

[Matin]

just something small on my part; the gor novels were what gave me my first real ideas on how dominance could be made, through my own discipline, to be a thing of beauty.

they helped me look beyond prejudices and directly influenced my life.

not bad for science fiction:)

[denuseri]

A note about the use of "Tal" the Gorean word for "greetings".

Some controversy surrounds this word as to which levels of honnorifc addresss are allowed.

Many believe that it is only to be used between free people of equal status.

Is the use of Tal reserved to free men and women only?


"Tal," cried Ute, greeting me as a free person.
Captive of Gor

It is unclear whether this quote means "greeting as free persons would" or "using the word free persons do to greet".

Or this reference that seems to mean its a warriors greeting only:

“He looked at me.
‘I give you greetings of the caste of warriors,’ he said.
‘Tal,’ said I.
‘Tal,’ said he.”
Beasts of Gor

Or with this quote it would seem that "Tal" is not enough, that some other identification of status would be required.

“He stood before the table of Cernus and though Cernus was Ubar of his city he merely lifted his hand in common Gorean greeting, palm inward.
‘Tal,’ said he.
‘Tal,’ responded Cernus, seeming somehow in awe before this mere boy.”
Assassin of Gor


Further searches have, on many occasions, slaves both using the word to greet, AND being greeted by it.

"Tal, Kajirae!" cried one of the men, waving.
Captive of Gor

"Greetings, Ute," said I, smiling.
"Tal, El-in-or," smiled Ute
Captive of Gor

The girls stood straight, proud under the gaze of a warrior. "Tal, Master," said many of them, as I rode slowly by....
Tribesmen of Gor

"Tal, Master," they said to me.
`Tal, Slave Girls," I said to them.
Tribesmen of Gor

This leaves the reader in a position where he cannot quite clearly establish whether this exclusive use of the word is in fact, a habitual thing, a local custom, or a rule.

Since the word is clearly defined in the books as being a direct translation of the word "greetings" is it possible that its usage depends on the addition of other honorifics in the context of a sentence to clairify the intent?

Why am I talking about "Tal" at all?

Well for on, where as Goreans are ussually conserned the proper form of address is a way of showing Honor to another.

Followers of Gorean philosophies highly value thier honor.

Just as the use of Sir and or Maam is considered proper in polite society, so too amongst Goreans.

Now in the books on the world of Gor all slaves are to address all free persons as Master or Mistress and the use of a free persons given name without permission is a terrible offence, just as slaves are supposed to use a form of third person speach when refering to themselves in a free persons presence out of respect for thier status.

Yet if given permission it is acceptable to do otherwise.

Of course here on earth thats not allways feasible and may even break the rules of ettiqute for a given situation.

For instance if one were to call every free male or female Master or Mistress in the chat room, or in a bdsm setting in real life one may even find themselves to be censured for thier efforts as many in our community feel like the words Master and Mistress are only appropriate forms of title to be used if one is in thier collar personally.

When in Rome as they say.

For simular reasons one may not find or expect every kajira out there to be commonly using third person forms of speach as some consider this offensive, degrading, or an example of "sceneing" etc. (one reason you will see me use "I" in here)

Where in other situations it is quite all right to do so.

This girl hopes that the above post was helpful for all conserned.

[walkingdude225]

Gor seems very complex and very detailed so my qusteion is there in offical guide of gor ideals?

[RickBulow74]

Gor seems very complex and very detailed so my qusteion is there in offical guide of gor ideals?


There are a few good gorean sites I go to whenever I want to find out a few things. If you like, I can send them to you in your PM or even here on the Board. I will say that Gor has changed a lot from when I first logged into it back in 1998.

[denuseri]

The only official site I know of is the one endorsed by John Norman himself.

http://gorchronicles.com/modules/wfchannel/

Alltough there are many others mentioned here in this thread and in other sites on the web.

[E.C. Holland]

den,

I owe you a philosophical quotation on another thread, but I'll post one here, since it is appropriate to this discussion. The quotation applies to virtue ethics generally, but is especially applicable to Gorean thought, which seems to assume that because many women prefer to submit, all women should submit.

"In every system of morality which I have hitherto met with, I have always remarked that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary ways of reasoning and establishes the being of a God, or makes observations concerning human affairs; when all of a sudden I am surprised to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, "is," and "is not," I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an "ought," or an "ought not." This change is imperceptible; but is however, of the last consequence. For as this "ought," or "ought not," that expresses some new relation or affirmation, it is necessary that it should be observed and explained; and at the same time that a reason should be given; for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it."

David Hume

[RickBulow74]

The only official site I know of is the one endorsed by John Norman himself.

http://gorchronicles.com/modules/wfchannel/

Alltough there are many others mentioned here in this thread and in other sites on the web.


That is a good one. One that I refer to often is http://www.geocities.com/delphius2002 which is Luther's Gorean Education Scrolls. The reason I recommend Luther is because he also goes into the backgrounds and cultures from which Norman derived Gor from. For instance, he derived heavily on Greek and Roman culture for the cities (obvviously) and even mentioned Sparta.

It just bears the question. Was the Greek philosopher Pythagoras teling the truth abotu a counter earth for real? Is there one out there?

[denuseri]

den,

... Gorean thought, which seems to assume that because many women prefer to submit, all women should submit.



In my humble opinion what Norman is realy saying is that the strong should take the responsibility to keep those in thier dominion in the best way possible so that the whole thrives as opposed to allowing the system to run itself blindly with no guildence into corruption.

It does sugest and rightly so as history can attest that Men are more predetermined to dominant in this regard and that all females may have a biologically predisposed orientation to then submit to those that prossess those traits of virility that are desireable in a mate. (Otherwise for the vast majority of known history patriarchial societies would not have flourished nor would the vast majority of women preffer strong intellgent men for mates as opposed to frail weak willed individuals they can easily dominate) Hence the bilogical essence of the philosophy sugested by Norman.

He also says that any woman in question will not submit to that which she can dominante herself. That in effect if she is refused the dominance her biological inner self may crave she will quickely replace it with her own and with verve. Thus explaining much of the animosity we see in marriges today.

The message is simple in the regard of explaining how a hierarchy of dominion exists not only on "Gor", but here on earth as well.

The difference here is that the men have in general allowed themselves to become far weaker willed with time and a large degree of role reversal as come to the fore.

It is really in many ways a plea for men to become men again as much as it is an explanation of why we as human beings are the way we are.

[E.C. Holland]

Hume's point (and mine, too) is that Norman and others in the tradition of virtue ethics assume that we ought to care about "corruption in the system," when in fact we're free to have just about whatever values we like.

Even if we assume that women are born with an innate tendency to submit, it doesn't follow that it is a moral obligation for them to submit. I might be born with a tendency to throw with my right hand, but if I learn to pitch left-handed, we don't think it's a moral issue.

[denuseri]

The obligation is (i repeat) not on the women to submit.

It is rather the onis of moral responsibility is on the males to reasert thier place of dominance in the hierachy.

And when we dont care, when we excuse the responsibility of each of us to the other we become part of the population that does nothing to contribute or worse drags on the others to support it.

Who stands up and acts with virtue?

Where are morals when no virtues are embraced?

What are we if we ignore our surroundings, if we ignore ourselves.

Wher goes the essence of what it means to be a man or a woman when no one listens with thier heart, and excludes its song for that of theroretical reason alone?

[E.C. Holland]

The obligation is (i repeat) not on the women to submit.

It is rather the onis of moral responsibility is on the males to reasert thier place of dominance in the hierachy.

And when we dont care, when we excuse the responsibility of each of us to the other we become part of the population that does nothing to contribute or worse drags on the others to support it.

Who stands up and acts with virtue?

Where are morals when no virtues are embraced?

What are we if we ignore our surroundings, if we ignore ourselves.

Wher goes the essence of what it means to be a man or a woman when no one listens with thier heart, and excludes its song for that of theroretical reason alone?

If it's the place of men to assert their natural place of dominance, there must be a corresponding duty on the part of women to submit to that dominance, no? I assume any woman who doesn't submit by choice will be forced to submit. And the women who don't really want to be submissive, they are forced (literally) to ignore themselves, no?

What evidence is there that these women who don't want to submit will eventually be happier if they are forced? This is anything but a "theoretical" question.

[denuseri]

This is anything even remotely like a theoretical answer:

In short the answer is "No" . According to what Norman has written so far not all women submit to the same level as a slave if at all outside of that capacity where in they find males that are worthy of submitting too.

He has the vast majority of them in his "world" as free, alltough he does portray them for the most part as never truely being happy in that capacity. (he also has portrayed male slaves in many capacities)

As they say to assume makes an ass of u and me (play on spelling and words not a personal jibe) . So too assumptions in absolutes would make for absolute assess of all of us.

He never says that the female of the species should be catagorically forced into submission.

What he does sugest is that truely dominant men never relinquish thier dominance, nor allow it to wrested from thier grasp as it appears to be in the proccess of doing here in our modern day society.

[walkingdude225]

Don't take this the worng way E.C. Holland but what part of denuseri's points on this topic are you having trouble understnading. It seems pretty clear to me... sorry Mr. Holland i say this with respect but how man times dose Denuseri needs to repeat her self for you ?
P.S.
Denuseri i hate to ask this (becuase you may have answered this already) but since im a sub dose that make me a weak male in the Gorean ideals

[denuseri]

That depends on ones deffinition of weak, does it not walkingdude?

Phisically I would not presume to guess.

Willpower wise?

I have seen submissives display amazing feats of willpower.

Weaker than your Domme in regard to the capacity to exert the force of one's will over another?

I would presume by that meaning then one could say yes, you are weaker than your dominant.

Such a distinction is of course dependent upon an individuals point of view.

Your preception of your dominants power over you could be termed as "strength" if you wish to see it as such.

Though it is my humble opinion that to consensually submit to the will of another that one precives as more dominant (or powerful or stronger or whatever you wish to call it) than ones self also takes a certian kind of strength as well if not a great deal of courage.

[walkingdude225]

ok, that makes sense

[Flaming_Redhead]

This thread is fascinating! I've always been a bit curous about Goreans. There's a Gorean forum on collarme, but I can't make much sense out it. They tend to not like outsiders asking stupid questions, so I've refrained since I don't know the proper way to address my questions. I have to admit that denuseri and Kuskovian are the most "normal" Goreans I've come across. Too bad I can't think of any questions at the moment....

I suppose my interest lies in the fact that I tend to agree somewhat with the view that men "should" be dominant as well as honorable, and while some women choose to remain free, most crave domination. Otherwise, why all the sales of bodice-ripping soft porn disguised as romance novels? I suppose some of my feelings are derived from my Christian roots, but I can honestly say that no one is forcing submission on me. I was raised by a feminist after all. What has been forced on me is trying to be something I'm not, i.e. head of household/relationship, by emasculated males. Hmm....maybe I should make an effort to read the books and find out more.

[denuseri]

Hey sisa feel free to ask all the questions you wish my boo.

[E.C. Holland]

He never says that the female of the species should be catagorically forced into submission.


Are there individual women who should be forced into submission? Who are they, and who decides?

[E.C. Holland]

Don't take this the worng way E.C. Holland but what part of denuseri's points on this topic are you having trouble understnading. It seems pretty clear to me... sorry Mr. Holland i say this with respect but how man times dose Denuseri needs to repeat her self for you ?
P.S.
Denuseri i hate to ask this (becuase you may have answered this already) but since im a sub dose that make me a weak male in the Gorean ideals

I'm confused about whether the rules of this brand of virtue ethics applies only to those who choose to take on these obligations, or if Norman's claims about what is good and right for human beings is a fact and applies to people generally. If it is the first, then it seems to me more like a role playing game than an ethos. If it is the second, then it seems like it ought to be acceptable (in theory) to enforce the rules even on those who disagree with them.

Denuseri seems to be having it first one way, then another.

[denuseri]

So then by that suposition you propose that if any ethical system is established it should be unviversally enforced in a catagorical sence?

I wonder if any society has ever succesfully accomplished that for very long.

How very Kant of you to say we can't have an ethical system than doesnt apply as an ethical system unless it applies to everyone.

In actual reality the truth of it is that each and every one of us accepts those ethical values that we choose to accept and applies them as we each see fit.

We may say that what we believe is the right way for all of humanity but that doesnt change the fact that others may disagree. Nor does it mean that we must be at war forcing them to do so unless they are physically threatening us.

It is no more a "role playing game" for those of us who embrace the ethical virtures expoused by Norman than it is a role playing game for Taoists, Epicurians, or Stoics etc etc.

To imply that it is is farcical to say the least and just as insulting (which I am sure it was ment to be) as if one said all you do with your submissive in bdsm is "role play" with no consideration for any code of ethical behaviour attached like two animals rutting in the dark.

I also allready answered your question in a previous post Holland and I will say it again in case you are having trouble understanding.

Norman never says that the female of the species should be catagorically forced into submission.

What he does sugest is that truely dominant men never relinquish thier dominance, nor allow it to wrested from thier grasp as it appears to be in the proccess of doing here in our modern day society.

[E.C. Holland]

[COLOR="Pink"]So then by that suposition you propose that if any ethical system is established it should be unviversally enforced in a catagorical sence?

I wonder if any society has ever succesfully accomplished that for very long.

How very Kant of you to say we can't have an ethical system than doesnt apply as an ethical system unless it applies to everyone.

In actual reality the truth of it is that each and every one of us accepts those ethical values that we choose to accept and applies them as we each see fit.

Here you differ from all the virtue ethicists I can think of off the top of my head (including Aristotle, Aquinas, MacIntyre, and...especially...Ayn Rand) who believe that their system of morality applies not just to those who happen to agree with it, but also to everyone else.

If you think that moral systems are merely a matter of personal choice and disposition, you're not aligned with virtue ethics, but emotivism.



We may say that what we believe is the right way for all of humanity but that doesnt change the fact that others may disagree. Nor does it mean that we must be at war forcing them to do so unless they are physically threatening us.

But at the heart of any brand of moral realism is the threat that members might ethically enforce their way of thinking because it is, in fact, the right way of thinking. (you quoted Norman earlier as saying that even women who are first forced eventually find fulfillment--the implication is clearly that that the ends justify the means).



It is no more a "role playing game" for those of us who embrace the ethical virtures expoused by Norman than it is a role playing game for Taoists, Epicurians, or Stoics etc etc.

No, it's more a role-playing game for you, because when you're pushed on its real-world consequences, you back off and say its only true for those who want it to be true. I think you'll find that the Taoists and most brands of Greek philosophers consider their theories to apply to everyone.




I also allready answered your question in a previous post Holland and I will say it again in case you are having trouble understanding.

Norman never says that the female of the species should be catagorically forced into submission.


And I already asked you and you haven't answered (in case you're having trouble understanding)...are there [B]specific women who should be forced to submit? If so, who decides who and when? The dominant male?

[denuseri]

I think we are mis-comunicating here.

Let me clairify:

To answer your question I must address the false assumption that it is based upon which should hopefully answer your question in the process.

I do believe that the virtues and general philosophical explanations for human behavior expoused by Norman do apply in the sence that it is just as true and valid as any other recognized ethical systems postulations.

However I do not beliveve the "practice" of any ethical system should be forced upon another in the regard that you are sugesting. Ie by force etc.

Nor does Norman if you have actually read any of my posts or his books and paid attention to exactly what he says in context.

I have not to my recollection ever quoted Norman as saying that women who are first forced eventually find fulfillment.

The implication is not clearly that the ends justify the means in fact I have been saying the opposite of that throughout this thread and many others.

"No, it's more a role-playing game for you, because when you're pushed on its real-world consequences, you back off and say its only true for those who want it to be true. I think you'll find that the Taoists and most brands of Greek philosophers consider their theories to apply to everyone." (your words from above.)

Yet the don't enfore them on every one do they?

Nor should they.

The "means" are every bit as important if not more so to Goreans.

[E.C. Holland]

I have not to my recollection ever quoted Norman as saying that women who are first forced eventually find fulfillment.


"It is the nature of the female to submit; accordingly, it is natural that, when she is forced to acknowledge, accept, express and reveal this nature, that she should be almost deliriously joyful, and thankful, to her master; she has been taught her womanhood." - Marauders of Gor, Pg. 155

[denuseri]

Ahh thanku for finding the quote, its one of my favorites.

I see you have taken that word "force" from that quote, but out of context. That or I misunderstood your motive.

"Forced to acknowlegde" is a far cry from the type of forcing I thought you were sugesting Goreans expoused.

I have not met any yet who once they came to embrace thier nature in such fashion as described in that passage that did not joyfully thank thier Master for showing it to them.

[E.C. Holland]

Ahh thanku for finding the quote, its one of my favorites.

I see you have taken that word "force" from that quote, but out of context. That or I misunderstood your motive.

"Forced to acknowlegde" is a far cry from the type of forcing I thought you were sugesting Goreans expoused.

I have not met any yet who once they came to embrace thier nature in such fashion as described in that passage that did not joyfully thank thier Master for showing it to them.


What in God's name are you talking about?

[RickBulow74]

"It is the nature of the female to submit; accordingly, it is natural that, when she is forced to acknowledge, accept, express and reveal this nature, that she should be almost deliriously joyful, and thankful, to her master; she has been taught her womanhood." - Marauders of Gor, Pg. 155

I believe you had taken the quote out of context, as denuseri said. Here is the entire quote.


In the lowering of the woman, of course, a common consequence of her helplessness in the arms of a powerful male, her surrenderings, her being forced to submit, she finds, incredibly to some perhaps, her freedom, her ecstasy, her fulfilment, her exaltation, her joy; in the Gorean mind this matter is simple; it is the nature of the female to submit; accordingly, it is natural that, when she is forced to acknowledge, accept, express and reveal this nature, that she should be almost deliriously joyful, and thankful, to her master; she has been taught her womanhood; no longer is she a sexless, competitive pseudoman; she is then, as she was not before, female; she then finds herself, perhaps for the first time, clearly differentiated from the male, and vulnerably, joyfully, complementary to him; she has, of course, no choice in this matter; it is not permitted her; collared, she submits; I know of no group of women as joyful, as spontaneous, as loving and vital, as healthy and beautiful, as excited, as free in their delights and emotions, as Gorean slave girls; it is true they must live under the will of men, and must fear them, and the lash of their whips, but, in spite of these things, they walk with a sensuous beauty and pride; they know themselves owned; but they wear their collars with a shameless audacity, a joy, an insolent pride that would scandalize and frighten the bored, depressed, frustrated women of Earth. (Marauders of Gor page 155 - 6

Also, if you noticed the scene was after the Forkbeard sent Gunnhild to the platform and she won. Then Bera, the Blue Tooth's Woman, had said that it was shameful.


The slave girls groveled at her feet. Slave girls fear free women muchly. It is almost as if there were some unspoken war between them, almost as if they might be mortal enemies. In such a war, or such an enmity, of course, the slave girl is completely at the mercy of the free person; she is only slave. One of the great fears of a slave girl is that she will be sold to a woman. Free women treat their female slaves with incredible hatred and cruelty. Why this is I do not know. Some say it is because they, the free women, envy the girls their collars and wish that they, too, were collared, and at the complete mercy of masters.
Free women view the platform with stern disapproval; on it, female beauty is displayed for the inspection of men; this, for some reason, outrages them; perhaps they are furious because they cannot display their own beauty, or that they are not themselves as beautiful as women found fit, by lusty men with discerning eyes, for slavery; it is difficult to know what the truth is in such matters; these matters are further complicated, particularly in the north, by the conviction among free women that free women are above such things as sex, and that only low and loose girls, and slaves, are interested in such matters; free women of the north regard themselves as superior to sex; many are frigid, at least until carried off and collared; they often insist that, even when they have faces and figures that drive men wild, that it is their mind on which he must concentrate his attentions; some free men, to their misery, and the perhaps surprising irritation of the female, attempt to comply with this imperative; they are fools enough to believe what such women claim is the truth about themselves; they should listen instead to the dreams and fantasies of women, and recall, for their instruction, the responses of a free woman, once collared, squirming in the chains of a bond-maid. These teach us truths which many women dare not speak and which, by others, are denied, interestingly, with a most psychologically revealing hysteria and vehemence. “No woman,” it is said, “knows truly what she is until she has worn the collar.” Some free women apparently fear sex because they feel it lowers the woman. This is quite correct. In few, if any, human relationships is there perfect equality. The subtle tensions of dominance and submission, universal in the animal world, remain ineradicably in our blood; they may be thwarted and frustrated but, thwarted and frustrated, they will remain. It is the nature of the male, among the mammals, to dominate, that of the female to submit. The fact that humans have minds does not cancel the truths of the blood, but permits their enrichment and enhancement, their expression in physical and psychological ecstasies far beyond the reach of simpler organisms; the female slave submits to her master in a thousand dimensions, in each of which she is his slave, in each of which he dominates her.
“Shameful!” cried the free woman. (Marauders of Gor, pp 154 - 5)

I hope this helps you out some.

[E.C. Holland]

Rick,

I'm grateful for the extended quotation, but I'm not sure how you think it changes the context of my questions. The operative word continues to be "forced." What I want to know is whether, according to the followers of Norman, there are some women it is permissible to FORCE to submit, because it will result in their fulfillment.

It's clear to me how Norman feels on this issue--at least, how he feels within the context of his fictional world. What is still unclear to me, even after several direct questions on the subject, is whether those who here in the real world consider themselves "Goreans" believe that some women benefit by being forced to submit against their wills.

[RickBulow74]

Rick,

I'm grateful for the extended quotation, but I'm not sure how you think it changes the context of my questions. The operative word continues to be "forced." What I want to know is whether, according to the followers of Norman, there are some women it is permissible to FORCE to submit, because it will result in their fulfillment.

It's clear to me how Norman feels on this issue--at least, how he feels within the context of his fictional world. What is still unclear to me, even after several direct questions on the subject, is whether those who here in the real world consider themselves "Goreans" believe that some women benefit by being forced to submit against their wills.


EC,

The reason why I said what I did is becasue all too many people take a quote and twist it to fit them. As UbarLuther said in his Gorean Education Scrolls (Scroll 81: Using Book Quotes (http://www.geocities.com/delphius2002/id148.htm))

It is very common for people to use a quote from the Gorean novels to support a proposition. Yet, a quote along may not guarantee the validity of a proposition

He also went on to say that a single quote out of the over 10,000 pages of information from the 26 (soon to be 27) Gorean seriesmay not be sufficient to prove anything.

He also came up with some guidelines in how to analyze a quote in an attempt to determine and enhance its credibility and applicability, but not the ONLY path to their destination.


We should determine whether the quote is even applicable to the proposition we seek to prove
We should determine whether the quote appears ambiguous or not
We should examine who is speaking in the quote
We need to determine the context of the quote
We should try to locate other quotes that deal with the subject of the quote in question
We must be sure to view most quotes through the eyes of a Gorean and not an Earth person
We should consider whether a quote is an example of behavior or a more general statement about that behavior
It can be important to acertain which book a quote comes from
We should also consider the situation where there are no quotes that specifically prohibit something on Gor


I had noticed in my own research (and I only have the first 15 books plus book 26 in book form but all of the others on my computer) that Norman had changed his mind on certain things in the latter books and that they are more authoritative as they are the ones that underwent more thought and organization. I would recommend looking through the novels to find more quotes of what you are trying to bring forth, especialy since there might some quotes which contradict what you are trying to say.

[E.C. Holland]

Rick,

I'm not "trying to say" anything. I'm only asking a question. This thread was started to discuss the Gorean philosophy, so I expected to be able to get a straightforward answer to this pretty basic question. Or, if the issue is truly so much more complex than it seems, I'd think some of those who allege to find the philosophy of these books so personally meaningful might offer an educated guess.

I suppose that's not going to happen. Have a nice day.

[RickBulow74]

EC,

I apologize if it came out wrong. I was just saying that there are some people who take quotes and twist them to say what THEY think. I rather enjoyed the conversation and am always up to speak about the books.

[denuseri]

<<has allready answered the question straightforwardly like three or is it four times now

<<is also very familuar with the preconcived allegations type questions (especially since the majority of the questions I field are of that type).

There is (as stated numerous times before in this thread) a difference between how things are done on Gor (the fictional setting of the books) and how things are done here in our own society and Norman has been been rather clear about it himself as previously posted.

Yes the word in question taken from the text may be "forced" but I ask you forced by what, when, how and or who?

It can be infered perhaps that it is the dominants responsibility to use some degree of force to coax submission forth. (the amount of which vastly differs between the fictional setting and the reality of it in real life here)

It certianly helps in most regards to have a strong willed Master , but it doesnt remove the free will of the submissive to choose in the slightest nor does it allieveate any of the legal trappings of our politically correct world.

Here in our world today, (as opposed to the setting of the books) it is illegal to engadge in non-consensual practices.

That freedom of choice is also possessed by the characters in the books (alltough thier options of choice are vastly reduced), nor does it remove that same choice to sumbmit or not, from our own lives.

If you think that earthbound philosophy practicing Goreans believe that all women should be taken out and physically forced to submit than you are pretty much missing the forest for the trees.

[denuseri]

Just bumping the thread for those new to the site who have shown an intrest in Gor that Ive seen around here of late who may not have been aware of the thread or its counter part in the submissives couch on being kajira. Please feel free to participate!

[ksst]

This is interesting, and from the many quotes provided I can easily see that we (Master and I) are not cut out to be Gorean in terms of philosophy. He told me over New Year's that he thought I was becoming Gorean in all but name. There are a few major differences though, revolving around feminism and individuals determining their own roles, not based on gender. But still, it's very interesting to see what it is all about.