BDSM & Marital and Emotional Infidelities

[Pandora's Box]

A disclaimer:

This post is in no way a judgement against any one person or group of people. I realize that life comes in all sorts of shades of gray, but it is just something I've been thinking about and pondering.


Now, on to the topic.

I've talked to a lot of people over the course of my exploration. And I've had the opportunity and privilege to talk to many people on this site. I keep running into something that has led me to wonder if in some way, people aren't more lax about marital indiscretions in light of BDSM.

I know of people that have spouses, some interested in BDSM and some not, that have online BDSM relationships. Now I realize that BDSM is termed as a "lifestyle" (whateverthehellthatmeans) but I am more inclined to group it in to sexual behavior for my thoughts on this. (Yes I do realize that BDSM can have nothing to do with sexuality, however in practical application that is more rarity than reality.) The sexual drive is among the strongest that we have. And many of the urges behind and manifestations of BDSM are sexual.

What makes this relevant to me is that in the "vanilla" world, I don't see the "turning of the other cheek" towards infidelity that I see in the BDSM world. And it makes me wonder. In the "vanilla" world, you'll see people with sexual incompatibilities cheat, but rarely see other people ignore the indiscretion or even encourage the cheater on their quest. However I have seen that happen in the BDSM world a lot.

I guess, what my question comes down to is, does it seem to others that BDSM is deemed as an acceptable reason for infidelity?

Part of this is my idealism, part of it practical observation. I myself have never cheated or entertained the thought of it. I can't imagine aligning myself with a man that I am sexually incompatible with, BDSM related or not. I realize that some of these people discovered BDSM after their unions and are in a bit of a double bind. However, I also honestly think that if BDSM is truly part of a person then by continuing in a relationship that does not fulfill that part of themselves is a bit of a sham.

Again, I know that things like children and finances are practical realities that must be dealt with. But then again, in the "vanilla" world, any counselor worth their salt would not recommend that someone stay in a union that will never satisfy them as people. And one that would, over time, cause long term trauma.

And then, if one does extend BDSM beyond the sexual, into the emotional and personal... doesn't it make it just that much more of an act of unfaithfulness to your partner? Does fidelity take a backseat to BDSM?

Just some ramblings. And again. This is not meant as a judgement on anyone. I know the situations of several people on the board. And I can honestly say that if I were in their situations I do not know what I would do. I can only say that I hope I can avoid being in those situations in the future.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Now I realize that BDSM is termed as a "lifestyle" (whateverthehellthatmeans) but I am more inclined to group it in to sexual behavior for my thoughts on this.



For that answer, read my very old article here named "What is BDSM?" (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showpost.php?p=658&postcount=1)

Now, to answer a few of your other questions. BDSM relationships are relationships, just like any other kind of relationship is just a relationship. When you enter into a BDSM relationship, you agree to abide by the merits and parameters of that relationships, just like any other kind of relationship.

When people enter into a vanilla relationship, they assume fidelity will exist. When people enter into an engagement, they assume the fidelity will continue. When people enter into a marriage, they assume fidelity, again, will continue. Unless that is not what the partners have agreed to. I have known many people in polygamous relationships, and in open marriages. The common theme in all of their relationships was that they agreed to those things beforehand or they talked about them during their course of their relationship and agreed to change things.

The same thing applies to BDSM relationships. If a person goes into a BDSM relationship with the idea of strict monogamy, then their partner should respect that. However, if the relationship entered into is one of polyamoury or if the aspects of the relationship change over time and the people involved want to include others, then that is not infidelity, that is renegotiation or communication.

Granted, any dominant whether online or off, that "cheats" on his submissive by going around behind her back or playing with another submissive without first communicating his desire or renegotiating the parameters of his relationship is guilty if infidelity. At that point, I would venture to guess that any negotiated contract the two parties agreed to becomes null and void and the submissive can, and darn well should, look for a faithful partner.

And submissives do it, too. In fact, in my experience, submissives do it a lot more than dominants do. Especially (and no offense guys) male submissives. Talking from mostly online experience, I can safely say that that about 8 out of every 10 submissves that I know in online relationships have commited an act of infidelity, if you can call it that when it involves cybersex or cyberBDSM. But don't think I'm taking the dominants' side in any of this. I've seen some online "dominants" use every trick in the book, from creating new chat nicks to creating new IM accounts to moving to another chat system with the objects of their infedlities. Mostly, male dominants do this, I have noticed. And mostly, they're not very good at it either.

So, what it boils down to, getting back on topic, is what you've decided for your relationship. If you've decided that more than one partner is fine, then it is. If you want monogamy, then that's fine, too. And hey, you can always renegotiate later.

[Pandora's Box]

This is more of a philosophical meandering than anything else.

I didn't actually mean cheating doms and subs per se. I meant more like people that are into bdsm but married to "vanilla" partners. And how the community tends to look the other way, and even in many cases, encourage the exploration.

:)

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Well, never mind, then. Please disregard the content of my last post.

[slavelucy]

This is more of a philosophical meandering than anything else.

I didn't actually mean cheating doms and subs per se. I meant more like people that are into bdsm but married to "vanilla" partners. And how the community tends to look the other way, and even in many cases, encourage the exploration.

:)

Ah, right, i think i see what you mean Pandora..and i think i have some sort of answer, but i am finding it slightly difficult to put into words, but i'll give it a whirl!

These four points sort of (hopefully!) follow on sequentially:

Firstly, i think it's quite possible that people marry vanilla partners long before they realise, consciously i guess, their interest in BDSM.

Secondly, i also think it's possible that a partner could have an interest in BDSM, but, BDSM being so broad, it isn't that close to one's own kinks (for want of a better word)....which could become increasingly apparent in ones relationship.

Thirdly (and maybe some will disagree with me), i think that the desire to submit (or dominate...although obviously i can only speak from the submissive viewpoint) is something that is very difficult to supress....in some respects, it almost 'gets a grip' of you....be that for sexual reasons or who you are, all the best will and highhanded morality in the world is fighting something of an uphill battle against it.

Forthly and in direct reference to your question; yes, i think the BDSM community probably are more accepting (accepting, not 'turning a blind eye') of it, the reason for which i believe is essentially two fold:

1) Most people who share the same desires have a true understanding of what sort of feelings, both physical and emotional, the whole Ds things brings to the fore. This is in relation to the third point...they understand, not because they 'approve' of cheating, that's nonsensical, but because they know what it's like to want to fulfill that side of you and to be unable to.

2) Quite simply, people involved in BDSM are, generally speaking, more tolerant people, probably because they equally know how it feels to be criticised by people who don't even give you a chance to explain what it's about.

i hope i managed to sum up what i wanted to say..as an aside, i don't think pratical ethics can be constructed or laid down, broad brush, but rather something that is being created in an existential, ongoing sense and always somewhat individual and personal.

Here endeth the lesson. :D

sl

[abitbent]

I can't speak for everyone Pandora... but i'm willing to bet that the majority of cases (where there is infidelity due to D/s exploration) are kinky folk who have blossomed at a later time in life. A later time that may find themselves trying very hard to fit into a vanilla relationship, and now committed, perhaps with kids.

This is how it played out for me. I ignored what i couldn't understand about my sexuality, and did what everyone did. Found a very nice, attractive vanilla girlfriend and started a family. It wasn't until later in my young adult life that i realized that my monster inside was still waiting to be fed. I wish i could say it's a choice rather than a need but i can not. I continue to struggle with it daily, and i know it affects those around me.

Perhaps that why people in the D/s community tend to not frown upon it. I did enjoy your post however. Something that i still don't understand about this lifestyle is just how rampant poly relationships are here. I'm not much for poly, but nobody is saying everyone has to be like me either.. lol

Good topic..

bent

[cornelius76]

Hi there,

I've been thinking about that a lot, as I have a strong interest in BDSM (not likely to go away anytime soon), and, while my wife knows about these feelings, she does not share them.

I married at a young age, while I was still exploring my feelings with regard to BDSM. In the 10 years of our marriage it has become clear that we love each other very much, that my wife will never get into bdsm, and that I get very frustrated if I don't at the very least surf the web at least once a week.

A couple of years back - I guess in a make or break attempt at finding out whether this really was for me - I booked a session with a pro Domme, which, as it turned out, confirmed for once and for all that actually doing this (or in this case: having done to) is a lot better still than just reading and fantasizing about it :).

My wife doesn't know about this session, nor do I plan on telling her (at the moment anyway). Likewise, if I do manage to find a suitable partner to play with, I will likely not tell - she has made it very clear that if I ever was to cheat on her, all hell would break lose. And I know for a fact that this would greatly hurt her too.

And yet, she is not able to fulfill this one crucial aspect of me.

This does not mean I do not love her, nor do I have any intent nor wish to find another person to have the deeply emotional attachment I have with her. Same goes for vanilla sex. But if anyone was to ask me if I wanted to come and play, i would do so without giving it a second thought, as it will make me a happier person.

So I guess that according to the law I did cheat when I had the session, and would again if I played with someone again. I guess to most people I have been - and in my mind still am - unfaithful. I know my wife would feel cheated on. And yet, I can't say I feel guilty or event the slightest remorse. Quite the contrary. If anything, by exploring these feelings - if it so happens to the point of infidelity - I feel I will be a better and more loving husband. So from a personal, emotional standpoint I do not feel i am unfaithful at all.

As to whether or not the BDSM community does encourage people to commit these infidelities, not having been part of it for very long, I cannot say for sure. From what I have seen, many within the community seem more open to the possibility, or perhaps less judgmental about it, than 'average' people. In part I would guess that by accepting their own feelings people within the community are by their very nature less conforming than average, and having lived through the process of accepting know how strong, and perhaps initially disconcerting these feelings can be.

I hope that the above all made sense, if not, let me know (still wondering every so often if I'm not a little schizoid... :) ),

Cornelius.

[Barton]

Pandora, I would have to say that the reason we are perhaps more tolerant is that we all seem to really believe in "Different strokes for different folks.
Most people in vanilla relationships do not really believe in that, even though they may say they do.

Barton

[cornelius76]

well put, slave lucy!

[slavelucy]

well put, slave lucy!

*blushes*

Why, thank you cornelius.

And what you wrote made perfect sense, to me btw. You put my thesis into pratical reality, 'twas great.

sl

[cornelius76]

And what you wrote made perfect sense, to me btw. You put my thesis into pratical reality, 'twas great.



Hi slave lucy,

made you blush... :)

Many thanks for the above, glad it made sense... It's a funny situation perhaps, but not wanting to give up one or the other, one that works well.

Speak later,

Cornelius.

[disquietone]

This topic is very interesting, and I have to say relevant to me and my relationship with my husband. We both do BDSM, and we do it together, and sometimes even with each other, but he is not my Dom and I am not his sub or the other way around. I can't imagine a BDSM relationship without sex, it'd be like having broccoli for dessert or something. I also love my husband very much and would never consider having a vanilla affair outside of marriage, and would be very hurt if he did. Somehow it doesn't seem the same in a BDSM setting. I don't know why that should be, but extra-marital BDSM sex just doesn't seem like cheating, especially when your partner has full knowledge of it and even may be watching.

[MrJerseyGuy]

I don't know why that should be, but extra-marital BDSM sex just doesn't seem like cheating, especially when your partner has full knowledge of it and even may be watching.


The starter of this thread, PB, already knows my thoughts on the subject, we have spoken before. That said, as far as I'm concerned cheating on someone that you profess to be in love with is wrong in any context. And if you actually still believe that you are in love while you are doing the cheating...you could probably use therapy.

I have been in a relationship...actually a marriage, where we tried the open marriage thing. Although it seemed fun at that moment, it was just a symptom of the underlying problem. We tried it all...her meeting other guys, me meeting other girls and us meeting other guys/girls/couples together.

In the end we wound up divorced. We were not satisfied with each other and I believe that the open marriage thing just prolonged the agony. Its a way of continuing the relationship instead of admitting failure.

I recently said in the chat room that every relationship we get into has only two possible endings. Either you stay together forever or you don't.

You just have to stand up, dust off your cock (or vagina as the case may be), lick your wounds and move on. I know it's easier said than done. But I think that's what it boils down to.

[jaeangel]

I am married to a vanilla man, and we have 2 kids. I do have cybersex online, in chatrooms and such, and it was there that i met my MAster.
When I was younger (i.e. just out of High School) I moved in with a boyfriend who said he was into 'the lifestyle'. It turns out he was just a sadistic bastard; I ended up in the hopsital for a few days after going into shock after one session in which he was drunk and did not respond to our safeword.
The experience frightened me; the thought of how close I came to dying scared me. I stayed away from BDSM for a while, and eventually met my husband at work. We dated for two years, then I got pregnant and we got married. That was three years ago, and I love him dearly; I can't imagine living without him. I would never leave him. However, there is still that 'itch I can't scratch', the need to be dominated and used, and my husband is horrified by the very idea of tying me up and hitting me.
I was in a chatroom when I met a Master who didn't live all that far away from me. We got to talking, and then we met, and we had a few scenes together. My husband did find out, however; he came home from work early and surprised Master leaving our apartment. He didn't say anything about it at the time, but we did sit down and have a talk about it. He said he understood that i had sexual fantasies that he couldn't fulfill, but he also said that he didn't want strange people at our apartment, and that people would talk. He asked me to confine my scening to cyber, and not extend it out to real life. I have since restricted myself to cyber, in accordance with his wishes; it's not as good as r/l scening, but I love Hubby, and i respect his wishes. And I have found that it is better; I don't have to juggle schedules anymore and try to fit Master in with Hubby's schedule and mine. Cyber may not be as satisfying as r/l, but in the end it's better for our marriage.
I'm not trying to say its right or wrong; I'm just trying to explain my experience. I had to find a balance, one that would fulfil me and still respect his wishes.

[MrJerseyGuy]

You must have an extremely understanding husband jaeangel! I completely understand the urge to persue those fantasies...but the conversation should have happened before the scene, not after. If it were me, I would have kicked you out the door 2 seconds after I caught the master leaving. But then you don't even know me so who am I to judge. I just hope you don't forget the second chance.

The best way to cure cheating is to find yourself on the other side of it. That's what worked for me. At the same time it must be torment to want to play and not be allowed to. I'd be nuts over that!

I hope it works out for you. :)

[Katmandu]

I think that is BS! Why can't a person have their cake and eat it too? Who wrote all these social rules that have brainwashed people in today's society? Churches?! Think about it, folks. Monogomous and fidelity are words that came about after the Christian revolution 2000 years ago. Let's use our own brains here, and figure out what we truly want to do, how we truly want to live, and just do it!

[woodsman'sgame]

If you are a true submissive through and through, then doing what your spouse wants and making him/her happy should be your real goal. Your desires should be secondary to his or hers. True submision involves serving and catering to your spouse. It's not about getting you off and making you happy. It's about making him or her happy. There are a few submissive women in my little rural community in vanilla relationships who just don't realize that they are submissives. The only thing that is missing that would make this submission public is that they usually walk beside their husbands instead of 3 paces behind. <grin>

Now, if what you want is BDSM sex or if you are a Dom/Domme and your spouse is not at all submissive, then the situation is different. A vanilla relationship cannot be satisfactory to you. What to do there? I agree with Mr. Jerseyguy in that infidelity is infidelity. Lying to your partner cannot be good for any relationship. If you are stuck in a vanilla relationship, cyber sex is a safe outlet for these BDSM desires and does not pose a big threat to a marriage, but doing it behind a partner's back is something I would not recommend.

I understand that for some people this lifestyle is so important that having to live outside it would make them very unhappy. If you discover (or as in my case finally give in to and accept) these desires after many years of marriage and your spouse does not go along with them, then you have to choose between your own desires and the happiness of the rest of your family. It all boils down to how selfless you are and/or what your priorities are as well as how strong your need is for BDSM.

I was lucky in that my lifetime partner accepted my desires at this stage in our marriage and is willing to fulfill them. I feel badly for those who aren't so lucky and have to face such difficult choices.


Katmandu, throughout the ages, women who were unfaithful have been killed, maimed, etc. Before Christianity ever existed there were dire consequences for infidelity, but only for women. Men were not expected to be faithful to only one woman until Christianity came along. In many non-Christian and "Christian" societies this double standard still applies. So "just do it" is the thinking that many men have followed all along, but heaven help the woman who just did it!

[MrJerseyGuy]

I think that is BS! Why can't a person have their cake and eat it too? Who wrote all these social rules that have brainwashed people in today's society? Churches?! Think about it, folks. Monogomous and fidelity are words that came about after the Christian revolution 2000 years ago. Let's use our own brains here, and figure out what we truly want to do, how we truly want to live, and just do it!

I thought Woodsman's Game put it pretty nicely, but to respond to katmandu...

I have never agreed with the concept of monogamy. And I agree that it largely came from the religeous concepts of the people who established our society. I think it is an unnatural and antiquated concept. If it were "natural", men wouldn't pop a boner everytime a good looking girl in a skirt walked by. Now with that said <as I clear my throat>...

Like any other healthy red blooded man, I would happily grab every attrative woman I ran into and bend her over and bang her stupid! Given my social life and work, I certainly have the opportunity to do so on a regular basis. The reason I don't is because I love and respect my partner and would never do anything to hurt her (emotionally). I wouldn't hurt her physically either, except that she kind of likes it! I expect the same consideration from her and I get it.

I guess it just depends on how serious your relationship is. In my case, my relationship with her is much more important to me than any other piece of ass. And given the option, I wouldn't want to be with anyone else when I could be spending time with her. I think they call it love or something...

Now I shall jump off my soapbox and go back to looking at my porn

[Dslave]

I misread your post, as well. But, now that I think I know what you're getting at, here is my two cents...

I think it boils down to communication. Too many people in vanilla relationships have a hard time being truly honest not only with themselves but with others. There are times when some of them have awakenings and realize what they desire is more on the lines of BDSM but they fear that their partner wouldn't understand and the communication between them shuts down and the communication between the explorer and the BDSM community begins. And, the BDSM community has been shut out so much that they aren't going to shut someone else out for whatever reason especially when this person is just beginning to find their true nature. I think, simply, the BDSM community seems like it would simply be more open than the partner would to some people and in many ways they are. Why are they? Because they are much more honest with themselves (at least, most of them are) that certain things like polygamy (or multiple partners) are very natural and that "infidelity" is something created by the mainstream society and is not true to nature.

Yes, there are monogamous BDSM relationships but many are set up like nature where a male/Master is polygamous and the female/sub is monogamous. Strict monogamy was developed by the church not by nature and I think most BDSMers do have some grasp of that and are less judgemental of "infidelities" because of this than society is.

[Curtis]

I wish I could wax as eloquently as some of the rest of you have, but to me this is a very simple matter: There's nothing wrong with a poly- relationship, and Tourguide provides an excellant explanation of polys, BUT there is a huge difference between polys and cheating.

If you have your partner's permission, you aren't cheating. If you don't have your partner's permission, you're a bastard (even if you tell yourself you're doing it to make yourself a better spouse).

In a different thread I read through tonight, someone was essentially asking whether it was all right to cheat on a cheater. The very wise answer she was given (by multiple posters) was, NO. Even if your partner cheats, you should break it off with them before you take up (or have a fling) with someone else.

And that has nothing to do with religion -- it has to do with common decency.