New Kink Label?

[littlepet]

I've noticed that there are several people now (including myself) who use the term "pet" instead of slave or submissive. And who don't use it merely as a "term of endearment" but at the same time aren't necessarily "overly animalizing" the relationship. (Not that I don't act very much like a kitty at times.)

It's more of a "human pet"

I don't really consider myself very "submissive." I can be submissive, at times I am submissive, I have a drive to submit very often, but if something bothers/upsets me I will insist and resist. If I get strung up and whipped for said infraction later, that's fine by me, but...I don't automatically submit to everything.

I consider myself owned. And that such a thing isn't really determined by my level of submission.

So with that consideration, the ownership thing, I always automatically assumed that "slave" would be the proper term/idea. Since I knew Master was the proper term/idea on the other side of the equation. "Master" always felt absolutely "right" to me.

But, as time went on I felt like the term "slave" didn't fully cover it either. There is a lot of bad baggage associated with the term and mainstream people tend to get very much in a lather over it.

"Pet" was a term I was introduced to on Second Life. It seems almost as if this phenomena mainly came about from SL. But pets seem as common as slaves or kajira there. And the term seemed to resonate more with what I am:

I'm somewhat submissive but not always.
I'm owned, but more like a cat is owned because if I were deeply unhappy I would leave.
I'm cuddled, and loved and petted. I'm "kept" and taken care of and paid for.

This is not to say that all these above conditions cannot apply to slaves. There is no rule that says a Master cannot love his slave, but, at the same time, there is also no rule that says he has to. And to me, the label "pet" connotes to others that there IS a romantic/love relationship involved alongside the ownership. Which is as important to me as the ownership.

So that terminology came outside of SL back into my real offline life.

I'm wondering if this "pet" terminology might not at some point be as prominent as the terms "slave" and "submissive" because it does seem to fill a gap that may not be filled as well for some by other terms.

Thoughts?

[Ozme52]

The term 'pet'...

New to you perhaps, but not new to the lifestyle. At least not from my perspective.

[denuseri]

LOL, @second life kajira (a far far cry from real life). Licks my lips, and smiles a she sleens grin. My owner and i use that very term in real life with one another, it like dorei (japanese for slave) is just another "word" to describe the condition of servitude that i live and breath.

You call yourself whatever you need too to feel better about it, after all its a personal issue between you and your owner or master or whatever you choose to call him:at the end of the day, one is on thier knees ass high and spread for use : where as the other (wicked evil grins) is standing tall quirt in hand holding dominion.

As for love. I will refer you to a different thread that may erudite the possibilities of preception for you in regards to "perspective" in a Master -slave D/s TPE relationship.

Please do give it a whirl, its what being a "pet" is all about.

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15978

[Flaming_Redhead]

And to me, the label "pet" connotes to others that there IS a romantic/love relationship involved alongside the ownership. Which is as important to me as the ownership.

Don't count on others being convinced that there's romantic love. I mean....I love my parakeet....sort of. I feed him, give him water, and change his paper. He sings to me and keeps me company while I work. I won't cry when he's gone. I'll just throw him in the garbage with his shitty newspaper.

There are some people who view pets as part of the family, but there are more people who don't.

Jus' sayin'.

[littlepet]

Ozme, I didn't mean the TERM pet was new. But the using it in this frame as a separate classification on the same level as slave, sub, etc. seems to me to be either fairly recent, or a very minor subthread of kink.

It is theoretically possible someone has misunderstood me. I did not "learn" my lifestyle from second life. Second Life is an amusing online playacting diversion. I have been in a real life relationship for 8 years now, though those years are very difficult to summarize as when we became "zomg really real power exchange people." It was a hard road to get to where we are now,and I'm not yet sure if we're totally exactly where we're going yet, if that makes sense. I don't consider that I was truly collared in a sense of an actual real commitment to not straddle the fence between a vanilla play world and a real kink world, until last December, despite the several years before that.

I am merely expressing that I believe a terminology on SL has started to filter outwards. This is only a theory and may not be actually true. But a google search reveals precious little in the way of "pet" being used in the sense that I've used it. NOT as merely a term of endearment within a kink relationship, and NOT in a kink relationship that is focusing on "animalizing" the relationship...like for example having the pet drink from a dish on the floor or something.

I'm not judging either action as wrong. It just isn't what I'm referring to.

Denuseri,

please do not just assume I'm some newb who decided to try out this nifty kink thing last week. I NEVER said people in a TPE master/slave relationship could not have love, I was merely speaking of personal connotations of the word "pet" vs. "slave" to me.

I know I'm new to this forum, but I'm not "new" to master/slave power exchange relationships. And I didn't feel it was necessary to spell out my entire kink history in order not to be directed to "study up" on shit I have read and studied for years now to come to the place that I am at now.

LMAO flaming, good point! ;)

[littlepet]

I also would like to point out, that I read several threads on here before I registered and posted. My assumption was that the people on here seemed somewhat cool, and not like the "more submissive than you" people or any of the other weird little game playing "one-upmanship" we so often get in online forums regarding kink.

It is possible my assessment was entirely wrong and that I do not play well with other kinky people as a group. If that turns out to be the case I'm better off going back to my own little corner and making individual friendships with the kinky people I relate to, as opposed to trying to interact on a forum where people wish to "educate" me without getting to know anything about me first.

[caligirl{Rob}]

Big hugs! My thoughts are that within the lifestyle terms are as individual as relationships :) From the moment we met, my Sir chose to call me by the term "pet" He on the other hand does not choose for me to call Him Master, but prefers Sir or Sarge. I am most definitely submissive, but i melt at the sound to this day of "pet" from His lips....and we are together over 18 months. *Smiles* so i totally relate to the warm feeling you get from the term. What ultimately matters and should hold the only power over the relationship is how the people involved feel, choose and relate too...it sounds as though you have stepped into the beginning of a wonderful journey!

big hugs!

cali


I also would like to point out, that I read several threads on here before I registered and posted. My assumption was that the people on here seemed somewhat cool, and not like the "more submissive than you" people or any of the other weird little game playing "one-upmanship" we so often get in online forums regarding kink.

It is possible my assessment was entirely wrong and that I do not play well with other kinky people as a group. If that turns out to be the case I'm better off going back to my own little corner and making individual friendships with the kinky people I relate to, as opposed to trying to interact on a forum where people wish to "educate" me without getting to know anything about me first.

[littlepet]

Hi Caligirl. A few years ago I would have said, "the beginning? what what?" But yeah, the rabbit hole just goes deeper and deeper and I have no idea where I'll be in another five years or ten years on this road.

I don't know if I'll experience full internal enslavement, or not. I don't know if I want to, or not. For now, it is enough to know that I am owned, to know that I am loved, and to know that I've found a truly compatible Master in the bedroom and out. (and holy hell, he better be after all the crap we had to go through to get to this point.) Looking at what's out there, it seems precious few are able to find a kink relationship that is compatible and meets their needs.

We are, after all, talking about highly specific and individualized needs. I'm sure each person could write a book on their philosophies/views of kink and what their relationships mean to them, and we'd have several very different books with a few overlapping points.

Also I love "Sarge" that is so awesome! Being thought of as his "pet" really does make me melt. The only thing that makes me melt as much is when he says, "Morning, lover." I love, "lover" as a title/label/endearment.

[caligirl{Rob}]

smiles...perhaps it is being over 40 lol, but each day is a "beginning" for me! big grins!

[littlepet]

hehe yes, I'm 29. Still just a baby. :P Though there was a time I think I thought kink was somehow just gonna "end" by 35. I'm glad that's not the case. It would be terribly sad.

[Polaris]

hehe yes, I'm 29. Still just a baby. :P Though there was a time I think I thought kink was somehow just gonna "end" by 35. I'm glad that's not the case. It would be terribly sad.

Oh gosh, don't plant ideas in my head! I'm 26, but I'll have to make sure now to make the best out of the time *giggles*

On the original topic, I don't think that the term 'pet' as you use it is all that new, and I'm pretty sure that it existed before second life got big already. I am, however, under the impression that it is used far more frequently these days. There seems to be much more information floating about, and it seems to be quite a topical thing -- if it has anything to do with second life or not I could not tell.

I agree that it fills a niché, too. I feel sometimes that all these 'lifestyle labels' tend to be a little bit inflexible, and that might be a problem as well, we are all different and BDSM has quite the range. I know that I for my part struggle with finding the appropriate term for myself. I feel that I don't really fit into any of the available categories (not the pet one, either), so I'll just go with the good old submissive for now and invent an awesome new term at some point ;)

It's strange somehow that we seem to try to 'fit in', though. It should be sufficient to be what we are, whatever name you want to give it. Yet somehow words in this context seem to have so much more significance at times.....and now I got completely carried away. Time to stop rambling! :wave:

[sisterhoney61 {RW}]

hehe yes, I'm 29. Still just a baby. :P Though there was a time I think I thought kink was somehow just gonna "end" by 35. I'm glad that's not the case. It would be terribly sad.

Oh, my Goddess, girl, let's hope not! I didn't find Master until I was almost 40 and I'm 47 now. I'm just getting started. As long as He can still wield the whip and I can still kneel, I have no plans on ending my kinky life!

[littlepet]

Hi Polaris,

Hmmm, well if it's not new I'm kind of glad about that. Though I guess it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme if it's new or if it's old, if it fits. :P

I think what complicates matters further is every single label has a slightly different meaning to different people who use it. There are at least 3 different ways one can mean "pet."

There are people who use the word "slave" who aren't in an actual TPE and use safewords. And these two groups of people are likely to get into a rumble over who really has the right to use the word, etc. Because to some people "slave" is a metaphor, and to some it describes and actual reality. And the metaphor people are "diluting" the actual reality people (from the actual reality people's perspective) and the actual reality people are freaking out the metaphor people cause they aren't using safewords and as we all know that just MUST be "evil" (sarcasm)

The whole thing kind of makes me want to retreat back into my cave.

hahahaha @ "invent an awesome new term at some point" hehehe. Well you could write a series of novels then use that term.

My theory is that conventional relationships are propped up by the larger social infrastructure. Kink style relationships are not. So human beings being pack animals, there is a need for "acceptance" within the pack. Trouble is...the pack can't agree and there are about 50 different sub-packs, each convinced they follow the "best" way.

Yay Sisterhoney! That's awesome! :)

[Ozme52]

Ozme, I didn't mean the TERM pet was new. But the using it in this frame as a separate classification on the same level as slave, sub, etc. seems to me to be either fairly recent, or a very minor subthread of kink.

As a level of ownership, no, still not new.

Not even new per se, when I was a youngster.

;) :rolleyes: There used to be this way people communicated ideas through stories... I think they were called books... and as a youngster I learned pretty quickly there's really not all that much new under the sun.

Technologies, yes, and they allow ideas to spread more quickly, but the basic ideas... mere variations on old themes. ;)

[Ozme52]

I also would like to point out, that I read several threads on here before I registered and posted. My assumption was that the people on here seemed somewhat cool, and not like the "more submissive than you" people or any of the other weird little game playing "one-upmanship" we so often get in online forums regarding kink.

It is possible my assessment was entirely wrong and that I do not play well with other kinky people as a group. If that turns out to be the case I'm better off going back to my own little corner and making individual friendships with the kinky people I relate to, as opposed to trying to interact on a forum where people wish to "educate" me without getting to know anything about me first.

Whoa pet... Your original post posited ideas and asked for our thoughts... Not fair to jump on any of the responders for having contrary opinions. Nor were there any personal attacks. No one even suggested you learned anything from SL... just a comment that what is found in SL isn't necessarily all that new... just presented in a new format.

[littlepet]

Fair enough Ozme.

[bip0lar]

oooooh... *drools* the word 'pet' just gets me overly-excited-happy-content-horny.if.you.will, i love the sound of the word, it's small, precise, has a nice ring to it. to me it has a calming effect, though, too. i mean, i could be called bitch, slut, slave, harlot, wench and the such throughout the day but when the word 'pet' comes in i know i can relax, speak more freely. it takes me to my safe place faster if that makes sense, more of a settling down time word. i have to be honest, i have connected the word with 'care', although that doesn't have to be true for everybody, perhaps it has to do with personal connotations.
and, by the way, what is second life?

[littlepet]

hey bip0lar, I also attach it to the word "care."

Thanks for bringing in that word, because I think that really summarizes the "pet" thing for me more strongly than I was able to do before. I don't really have the gift of brevity.

Second Life is: http://www.secondlife.com It's a pretty interesting virtual reality world.

[Remia]

My mistress has always called me pet, rather than slave. I've always felt like a pampered little kitty with her, she's always taking care of my needs, and doesn't really order me around very much. A lot of people look at their pets (animals) as their best friends, but whom they are still the boss of at the end of the day, and I think our relationship is a lot like that.

That being said, another person's definition of pet, or slave, or even submission could be completely different than mine or yours. Referring back to your original post, you asked if the term "pet" might fill some sort of gap, but rest assured that all of the gaps are already filled, even if just by different ways of using the same words. ^.^

[DowntownAmber]

The word "pet" in a number of variations has been familiar to me for as long as I've studied the Lifestyle. I'd wager to guess it applied to the subbie/kinky/bottom/whatever sorts long before even then. I'm your age, littlepet, to give you a time frame to work with there.

Denu, thanks for the thread - some interesting info in there to consider. After all, The Lifestyle is nothing if not about continuing to learn and expand one's frame of reference. It's funny how the more experienced you get, the more important you consider the continuing education.

[denuseri]

Thanku Oz and Amber

Pet: I am sorry and ask your forgivness if my original post offended you so; in my defence i didnt once accuse you of being inexperienced or an "online" gorean.

I was simply saying (if you re-read it) that whatever term you use to refer to yourself and or your Master is a personel one, no real right or wrong exists there so long as the two of you are happy.

Please dont take the second life comment out of context. It was in no way shape or form directed at you personally in any manner. It was made to point out an ethical difference between a certian dicotomy that is probably only apreciated by other real life "goreans" The vast majority of the so called "online vr Gorean community" missess the forest for the trees when it comes to philosophical practice (in most cases i am aware of) and has contributed to the prevading onius of misperception we (real life followers or Dr Lange's Philosophies) strive to correct. Absolutley no one upmanship was intended.

Despite our best efforts :Kajira and Goreans in general have allmost as bad a reputation in some parts of the real life bdsm comunity as the old school common perception of the word "slave" in your orginal post does in current society.

Which is probabely why "submissive" is the most commonly prefered term in todays politically correct world. Alltough i have heard "pet" used frequently as a nic-name, i havent yet (until reading your post) seen it used to refer to a condition of servitude, regardless of the level of submission. Vannilla people use it endearingly all the time.

Posting a link to the other thread was just done for the purpose of enlightenment, compare and contrast the two conditions of submission they are not all that dis-simular;perhaps your version of servitude is congruent to the one described in the other thread?

In any event i certianly hope you stay here and continue to particiapate, we are very glad to have you.

Please feel free to pm me if you wish for any clairifications or have questions on what i have posted, I would certianly wish to avoid any confussion in the future and if you ever need any help at all for that matter, i am allways willing to lend a hand to my fellow sisters of the collar.

[MasterDragon]

I think you all missed that some places/areas do not get terms or ideas till years down the road. Also there are so many terms out there, not to mention the fact that as a sub/slave you do not get the same interaction. Maybe the Master/Dom, that you experienced may or may not have used the term. The 'lifestyle' is so vast and there are so many styles of 'lifestyles' that things are easily over looked. From a Masters point of anything I call my slave in nice conduct is a term of endearment even when I call her a 'dirty little slut', she is still my dirty little slut.

[littlepet]

Hi, densuri, apology accepted. I may have been a little harsh, and if so I apologize as well. It is just extremely rare for me to come across an online kink community that doesn't in some way pounce on me because I rarely march in their parade exactly as they wish me to.

I am fully willing to admit that I don't know everything, but at the same time, at the end of the day, what works in my own relationship is not up for public debate.

While I realize now that you weren't doing that, history has shown me, that there is no limit to the number of people online who WILL do that.

I actually once had people in an online forum literally get pissed off that I, as a sub/slave/pet refused to address any dom as master/mistress because of their position relative to me. Their position relative to me, is equal. My master would have caned my ass if I referred to anyone else as master, with the exception of a roleplay scenario that he previously approved.

I completely just 'reacted" because I assumed a subtle passive aggressive snub (which I have previously experienced many times) to be there, that wasn't actually there. On my first post I was automatically a little more wary and defensive/combative than perhaps I should have been. And that's my issue to contend with, you just kind of walked over my button, lol.

But seeing your response to me, I don't believe it was intentional. :D

And yeah, that was what I was getting to on the pet thing, seeing that term as a condition of servitude...except for SL with VERY few rare exceptions, I have not seen that permutation of the word. I do see "pet" relationships within the lifestyle, but in most situations they involve an actual major "animalizing" of the relationship. And while in some respects I could be likened to a pet in that way, it's largely metaphorical rather than "acted out" with the intention to make me just like a cat or dog.

At any rate, in my own life we flip between pet and slave and it depends on various factors. Though when we're in a schmoopy place, "pet" is a very good way to categorize it for us.

MasterDragon,

hehe, yes, dirty little slut, can be a term of endearment, LMAO!

[littlepet]

Hey Remia, yeah, no one can own a label. Whatever label anyone uses it's going to mean something different to them than to other people and that's true, in and outside of kink.

DowntownAmber, I can't wait to be 30, so I tell tell everyone I'm Twenty-Ten, because that will amuse me.

[denuseri]

Have you ever heard of the modulation of the she quadruped? Its how i was introduced to a rather interesting asscpect of objectification or animal play. (i allmost became a pony girl once lol)

Honestly i believe we see things more eye to eye than one might think, especially after i have read most all of your posts this morning.

I have myself experienced the very same discriminations you speak of, numerous times, becuase of my own relationship in a TPE of the oft misunderstood Gorean variety.

If i come accross as a little miss know it all, i really dont mean too, its really as Amber says, (and as a teacher in training in real life) i am very passionate about helping my sisters of the collar and facilitateing the obtaining of information for them. Education not only of myself but others.

I have however a tendency to pounce to easily on things as well; and with verve. Something which i am working on with my owner's loving help and kind administration...(SMACK!!..OWWW! ..Thanku Master!..Moans...) lol

[littlepet]

I can see both similarities and deep differences, but that's to be expected as we are two distinct individual human beings. :P

[sisterhoney61 {RW}]

To me, every word you use is nothing but a label. Humans absolutely adore putting names to things. In my all my years of being in the BDSM lifestyle I have been called many things: kajira, slave, submissive, pet, cunt, whore, slut.....I am all these and more. True, some of the words make me feel different emotions, such as when Master calls me pet over cunt. But they are all just words and they don't change who I fundamentally am inside nor do they change my relationship with my Master. No matter what He calls me He is still my Master, my husband, my lover and I am still His submissive, His wife and His lover. Labels won't change any of that. I am still His and He is still mine.

[littlepet]

I would very likely backhand anyone who called me "Kajira" It's one of those "I can respect the fact that other people are into this, but this word comes from a series of books I find as violently misogynistic and offensive as the bible, and therefore...no"

[denuseri]

<<again resisting the urge to break out with yet another long post to correct the oft misconsepted view of a wonderfully done work that shows the true bueaty and freedom found in submission.


smh. Its as far from mysogeny as one can get in fact and i adamitly disagree with the above interpetation. But i have allready expoused on it enough, in too many other threads, i am a kajira in every manner and meaning of the word, in fact every single female thats ever been "owned is" a kajira as much as she is a slave or a "pet" or whatever you want to call it.

[littlepet]

Hi Seri, "Kajira" is a word invented by John Norman to describe the slaves of his Gor series. (Which I realize you know this, it's just leading to my point) I find the books misogynistic and distasteful. (more explanation in the long reply I made to you on your own thread, with a couple copy/paste jobs as just two examples) While I recognize that you do not agree with my interpretation, it's an issue that we will have to agree to disagree on.

I know, for example that some people who are not into the TPE type of relationship might find me being owned offensive, and that would be fine. Because every person is entitled to their views. I think it can be hard to have views that are strongly conflicting without seeking to convert, but I think I can say I view the books as distasteful without having the need for you to see them the same way. Though if you ever feel that I'm moving into conversion territory let me know. Because I believe the autonomy of other people is important and I don't want to step on that. And sometimes I do.

I was raised in a fundamentalist household and at times that habit can be very hard to break.

But I feel very strongly that John Norman's Gor books display a Master/slave relationship in a way that I find misogynistic and disturbing. So, in light of that, the term he invented for his slaves: "Kajira" is a term that I find equally misogynistic and distasteful and would ask that you kindly never apply it to me.

[Ozme52]

Hey Remia, yeah, no one can own a label. Whatever label anyone uses it's going to mean something different to them than to other people and that's true, in and outside of kink.

DowntownAmber, I can't wait to be 30, so I tell tell everyone I'm Twenty-Ten, because that will amuse me.

Dammit!!! That makes me Twenty-Twenty-Sixteen!!

Which would be discouraging if I weren't so loaded with Ozness!! :blurp_ani

[littlepet]

LMAO @ loaded with Ozness!!!

And clearly made of awesome haha!

[MasterDragon]

Hi Seri, "Kajira" is a word invented by John Norman to describe the slaves of his Gor series. (Which I realize you know this, it's just leading to my point) I find the books misogynistic and distasteful. (more explanation in the long reply I made to you on your own thread, with a couple copy/paste jobs as just two examples) While I recognize that you do not agree with my interpretation, it's an issue that we will have to agree to disagree on.

I know, for example that some people who are not into the TPE type of relationship might find me being owned offensive, and that would be fine. Because every person is entitled to their views. I think it can be hard to have views that are strongly conflicting without seeking to convert, but I think I can say I view the books as distasteful without having the need for you to see them the same way. Though if you ever feel that I'm moving into conversion territory let me know. Because I believe the autonomy of other people is important and I don't want to step on that. And sometimes I do.

I was raised in a fundamentalist household and at times that habit can be very hard to break.

But I feel very strongly that John Norman's Gor books display a Master/slave relationship in a way that I find misogynistic and disturbing. So, in light of that, the term he invented for his slaves: "Kajira" is a term that I find equally misogynistic and distasteful and would ask that you kindly never apply it to me.


I am not going to go far into this for the feelings of other and others property, so I will say this:

littlepet, you are absolutely correct and might I say you have a beautiful way of putting things nicely and adding only what you feel is necessary since the Gorean series is 'broken', blind and so much more.

It pains me to see the traditions fall away to fiction.

Master Dragon AKA Angel Of Pain

[littlepet]

Thanks, MasterDragon. :D

[denuseri]

Oh dont worry i wont directly call you a kajira.

And if i were to do so it would be as the highest of compliments.

I am fully aware of the word and its meaning, i also see that my words will be wasted to some degree trying to convience you otherwise,, no one is trying to convert, i only wish to clairafiy that the work is in fact not mysoginist and obviously been misinterpeted by many incuding yourself . the suposition made by you is very much like calling all islamics terrorists, which couldnt be farther from the truth.

Yes when it is slandered in such a way we who follow its tenents in the manner in which the author wrote them to be; ussually take offence. Just as you do when your way is attacked by others.

That being said, forgive me if i have offended you. Especially if it is just by being what i am ...a kajira

[sisterhoney61 {RW}]

Dammit, denu, now your posts have me longing to return to Gor and become a kajira again! ; )

[alpha_Straye]

i think pet is a very pleasant term and i can see how it could be used as a label of Ownership beyond it's usual use as a term of endearment. It does, however, seem to me to be less of a category and more of a ..mm.. 'relabeling for personal taste'. Nothing wrong with that however *smile*.

[Ozme52]

LMAO @ loaded with Ozness!!!

And clearly made of awesome haha!

;)


You know... it spreads through close contact with me... :rolleyes:

Ozmosis!! :blurp_ani

[Polaris]

;)


You know... it spreads through close contact with me... :rolleyes:

Ozmosis!! :blurp_ani

Oh, you must visit certain areas quite often...it's a condition very frequently found in Ozlo. ;)



Just a few quick remarks on the Gor books...

Literature is pretty much my daily bread. This is mostly what I do: I read books, and then I interprete then. The people around me do the same. The typical scenerio goes like the following:

We start a friendly debate. One person is talking. The person has finished talking, and the rest of the people in the room jump at them with some delight. If we weren't in an academic surrounding we'd most likely start to mudwrestle at some point, but it's definitely intellectual mudslinging:

A: It is OBVIOUS that the author meant to say...
B (with fervour): But we MUST NOT FORGET
C: You are all wrong. It is entirely different
A: But if you look at this passage it's EVIDENT
ad infinitum :)

If I have learned something then it is that the same book can be read in many different ways by different readers. It depends on your own worldviews, your own experience, your own emotional state in the moment of reading...imho, there is no 'one true reading'. And hell, am I glad there isn't -- my field wouldn't have much future if this was the case.

What I'm trying to say is, I think it's possible to find the Gor series misogynist without being 'incorrect' per se. It is a reading that the books allow, just as much as they allow for an entirely different reading. Personally, I find them enjoyable and entertaining, but neither particularly misogynist nor particularly exciting. :)

When it gets to interpretation, we do exactly that -- interprete. And as soon as we begin to interprete, we leave the safe ground of fact and enter the realm of, well, interpretation. It is something we can discuss, of course. But at the end of the day, everybody will arrive at their respective, subjective 'truth' and stick to it. This is of course no criticism into any direction, I'm just a bit weird about literature in general ;)

And denuseri, just because it fits in here (not wanting to hijack the thread): I really admire the courage and passion you show when you talk about the lifestyle you chose for yourself. I realise there is an (in my opinion unjustified) stigma attached to the Gorean lifestyle, and I learned a lot from you and the few but lovely Goreans on this board. Thanks for that! :)

And now I'll stop boring ya'll to death! :wave:

[littlepet]

Seri,

To me this is along the lines of a liberal christian who because they believe I am under their god's grace, whether I want it or not, will call me christian and consider it a compliment with no regards to my own feelings on the issue or how the religion may have been used as a weapon against me, and therefore is personally distasteful.

I appreciate that you would never call me Kajira. And while to you it would be the highest compliment, to me it would be an insult. Just like being called a christian would be personally insulting to me. I am an individual human being with my own internal moral code which may or may not agree with someone else's which is fine.

I do not have a need for others to "agree with my view" or "follow my way." I merely insist that no one insist that I must just not "get it" or else I would see the wondrous beauty of it.

I have not made any statements against specific practitioners of the Gorean Lifestyle, only my personal assertion that the books are misogynistic. Considering that it is a work of fiction there can be no "true interpretation."

I have my opinion and you have yours.

Because all interpretations are necessarily interpretations. But they are twisted books from my perspective. I'm creating a separate free webpage, not on this site, to get some of my thoughts on the Gor series out and why these books irk me so much.

I personally believe the bible is a barbaric/tribalistic/amoral book, BUT this does not mean I believe Christians are this way. There are plenty of christians who are good people. But I don't think it's "because of" the bible.

I have similar feelings toward the Gor novels. Also, as a writer, I find them to be bad even by pulp fiction standards. If the books were not pedantic and preachy, the misogyny might be slightly less obvious and irksome.

Nevertheless, whether or not it's "fantasy" I find the ideas very harmful to women as a gender. But as I said, that is my opinion. I have not claimed my view to be holy writ.

I have not once attacked "your way." I don't recall personally saying anything negative about any human being who follows a Gorean Lifestyle. What I have done instead, is express my personal views on a work of FICTION.

And why it is difficult for me to reconcile books which I find offensive, with decent people who follow a lifestyle in some way based around said books. But this is not the first time I have come against this. I have a muslim friend who is the kindest girl I know in the world, yet I feel she follows an insane and barbaric book.

I know many kind and wonderful christians, who nevertheless follow a book I find insane and barbaric. The Gor novels are just yet another extension of this for me.

Tolerance means that I do not seek to convert others to my way, nor do I try to stop others in any way from practicing what is in their hearts. Tolerance does not mean i cannot have my own individual views and feelings on what constitutes misogyny.

Respectfully,

littlepet

[denuseri]

I am happy we can agree to disagree.

I hope this will in no way effect our continued relationship here.

I do respect that you have your own opinions. I will however continue to rebut those expressions that I see as close minded and defend with verve my position on this topic.

As the Japanese say: "Absorb what is useful".

[littlepet]

Seri,

We were so close to happy lollipops and gummi bears but then close-minded came up. :P

Me thinking rape is wrong isn't close minded.

Me thinking that to subjugate any random woman because she "must" want it is wrong, is not close minded.

Me thinking that submission to men is not the nature of ALL women is not close minded.

Me thinking that for those women who do possess varying degrees of submission that most don't really secretly want to be fully owned by a male with no rights, is not close minded.

Me thinking John Norman is insane, is an obvious conclusion just by reading his insane rambling letter to his readers at the end of "Witness of Gor"

It's a little "special" in my opinion.

My evil commentary of the letter can be found here should anyone be so inclined:

http://gor-issues.wetpaint.com/page/But+it%27s+just+FICTION



At the end of the day what this comes down to is I think a certain author is a misogynist and a crazy person and that his books suck.

I'm not attacking your lifestyle. I'm attacking the books that are the basis. That might be a thin line to you and it might cross into too personal of a territory for you, and if so I apologize. It's not my desire to cause anyone any hurt feelings or emotional anguish (well except John Norman of course), but I think the man is insane.

And I can't just "NOT" critique a person I feel is a garden slug and his work, just because someone else decided he was wonderful and decided to base some major chunk of their life on him.

[littlepet]

Also, I have no bad feelings toward YOU, Seri. I think you are a nice person. I admire your fire and that you don't back down from a fight. I consider it an admirable quality and not just when i do it. :P I have no hostile feelings toward you. You simply have different views than I do on a series of books and an author. And both of us consider our sides very important to us. because it's not just a "book" or "series of books" it's an attitude.

You feel that your lifestyle isn't understood. I feel that you can live however you want but that Norman should be on a thorazine drip and not allowed to mingle with the populace.

[denuseri]

Yes exactly lilpet..an attitude indeed.....

That i see all too often mis-interperated by people that are unable to seperate the fictional portrayal of a setting in a book, from the inherient philosophical virtues expoused by the writter of truth , honor and love found between the lines through out the volume of its bredth.

I never said you had to see it my way.

and i say this with all due respect:

from my perch in this tree, that to say you are not attacking my beliefs all the while you continue to chop and chop over and over with the same ax (argument) at the basis of my beliefs (or its roots tht being the books) seems to me a bit to much to swallow as is.

I am out, this is beyound thread drift, for this topic. Pm me if u really wish to continue or have something "new" to contribute.

Even if you dont agree with my terminology.

May you find peace my sister of the collar.

[littlepet]

I agree, this discussion has become tired. I'm not trying to attack you personally, feel however you wish. Not once did I in any way misinterpret anything about your lifestyle because I have no clue WHAT you do, nor does it matter to me one way or the other as long as it's consensual and you are happy. My discussion about the amorality of the novels was just that. I made clear many times I think Norman's views about women are wrong, even outside the novels. I'm not sure how much more explicit I could have gotten.

And when I say I believe Norman's philosophies are wrong, I mean...Factually incorrect. Though I do think the man is also a misogynist, but I'm fairly certain that point got through the noise of everything else I said.