Infidelity and BDSM [Archive]

damyanti

09-23-2008, 11:56 PM

I have a tendency to care about stuff and I think WAY too much, so before I offend someone with my mind ramblings or rant or get accused for "generalizing" or get my head chopped of for giving inflammatory thread tittles, my apologies in advance. :wave:

This is going to be just a bunch of rambling, I am still trying to wrap my mind on where I stand...so please feel free to add your own thoughts and experiences unconstricted with what I say.

I have this trait...and its taxing on myself, so I can only imagine how much I irritate others with it...where I am able to see (and do) practical matter of things, but I refuse to give up my ideals. I am very dutiful (I wish I could get rid of that particular trait) and loyal, so when it comes to others I follow reason and do whats best for them. But when it comes to myself, I tend to be more "illogical". Some label that immature, childish, young, naive...I disagree, but they are free to think what they will.

The freedom to be themselves my people have paid in blood, and while that period today seems like it happened a thousand years ago and most have moved on to things more mundane, cynical and reasonable,...I seem to be still stuck on the notion where "I would rather go hungry than not speak up against wrongs being committed". I have an irrational need for "freedom" and "right". Hence my views on marriage...

I think it is highly unlikely I will ever get married, not because I am a "loose liberal infidel" (as I let most believe) who doesn't believe in it, but because I believe in it too much.

I think there is too much of it (marriage), I think people do it too easily, too laconically, for the wrong reasons and they often don't mean it....after all there is always divorce.

Yes, divorce is a necessary evil, but short of serious mental and physical abuse (and ironically, its those who rarely leave) I don't believe in it. Perhaps this has to do with me placing the value on marriage as a spiritual commitment, and not as a social institution/convention; but how can you be a religious person and believe in divorce? I don't understand how you can stand in front of God, or people, give your word, make a commitment...then one day take it back, just because its no longer convenient, because you have found something better, because you have to go and find yourself? (And I question that regardless of what religion and deity you subscribe to, even atheists believe in something.)

Which brings us to the matter of infidelity...

Recently, in a very strict conservative newspapers, there was a flood of harsh and insulting comments to and about a woman who chose to stay with the husband she caught cheating. My reaction to that was...how dare they, its none of their business (whatever happened to, "object now or forever hold your peace")....to me marriage commitment, to share good and bad, is something that happens strictly between two people (even in polyamorous relationships; and regardless of their sex). Is the notion of "two against the world" so stupid and idealistic?

Seeing all the vanilla people getting divorced "just" because he cheated and finding it silly, ever since I was 9, my firm view on that was:...as long as he doesn't fall in love with whats above the neck, sometimes sex is just sex, isn't it? What would be the deal breaker...is him lying, or even not telling me about it. Honesty and loyalty, I value above all else.

But recently, while still holding that belief, I began to question - is it really too much to ask of men to be sexually, as well as emotionally, faithful?

Why would you marry someone with whom you are not honest, someone to whom you cant trust?

How do you deal with infidelity (in more conventional relationships),...especially when there is an added element of bdsm involved?

What do you consider infidelity in bdsm? Is there such a thing?

Or does the dominant get to do what they want? What about sub?

What about domming and subbing others, is that considered infidelity?

What is considered infidelity in polyamorous relationships?

badlyguidedlittlemis

09-24-2008, 01:23 AM

Your views are on the extreme side of most, and you are entitled to those of course. I personally disagree with you.

Marriage to me is not something you should stay in just because you've vowed in front of people and god. I'm not religious, but have had my fair share of it over time and think that if either partner feel that they can no longer stay in the marriage they have every right to leave, not to just put up and shut up.

There is indeed to much marriage and people today don't always think of it seriously enough but that is their choice, as is divorce and that is what free societies are out.
I don't see divorce as the evil you do, people change over time, as do the relationships they have with people during their lives. In fact, when my parents divorced it was (in retrospect) a good thing for my mother and our family, my parents' relationship was bad and now in the 13th year of her second marriage is happy, as are her children.

Seeing all the vanilla people getting divorced "just" because he cheated and finding it silly, ever since I was 9, my firm view on that was:...as long as he doesn't fall in love with whats above the neck, sometimes sex is just sex, isn't it? What would be the deal breaker...is him lying, or even not telling me about it. Honesty and loyalty, I value above all else.
I completely disagree, vanilla or d/s, cheating (as defined by the couples relationship) is cheating. As you say, honesty and loyalty you value above all else so why is it that as long as there is no love toward the 'bit on the side' it's okay. In my opinion, the cheating party has been dishonest and has not been loyal!

But recently, while still holding that belief, I began to question - is it really too much to ask of men to be sexually, as well as emotionally, faithful?
No, and it applies t women also.

How do you deal with infidelity (in more conventional relationships),...especially when there is an added element of bdsm involved?
The same way you would deal with it without the bdsm, I don't see a bdsm relationship any differently to a vanilla one. I may be the submissive in my relationship and my role defined by me and my dominant but our core relationship, the love, the trust and what keeps us loving one another is no different to my parents, who are not d/s

What do you consider infidelity in bdsm? Is there such a thing?
Those things are defined in each relationship, in mine it is boradly: We can both play (floggers, canes etc etc) with other people but sexual contact is forbidden. This is something we both agreed on.

Or does the dominant get to do what they want? What about sub?
No, he can not do anything which I've said no to, as I can't do anything he has said no to. Just because he is dominant does not mean he can veto my feelings.

You seem like your religious morals and society are clashing, as is often the case. Let the world do what it wants and don't think about it.
I've given up trying to understand society, as long as I don't disappoint myself, or my partner and we are happy in our lives I am happy and content.

shyslut

09-24-2008, 02:38 AM

I first met my husband when i was in a bad situation and only 19. We knew when we first laid eyes on each other that we like the other. We started dating 2 days after that. 3 weeks after I moved in with him. 1 yr after meeting we were engaged but because of various reasons didnt marry till we had been together 7 years. Now here we are being together 9 years almost 10. Alot has happened and changed.

One thing is hubby did cheat on me. It was almost enough to completely sever our relationship like that "snip". I tottaly shut down I was very depressed and paranoid and suspicious of "everyone". I quit eating and taking care of myself. I doubted myself my entire life and my entire history. but in the end hubby talked the talk and walked the walk. He quit drinking "it happened while he was drunk" He went to counseling "also said some childhood issues played in" He agreed to all kinds of extra rules like never being alone with another female. For the 1st year this even included his mom. We had no sex for a long time and I had a really disordered relationship with it. He was really patient and in the end we came through it. Our sex life is wonderful. I trust and love him even more. He values and cherishes me for all the things I was and now the power of my ability to forgive as well.

Now to the part where things change. I felt the need to have more sexual experiences. I felt the need to be submissive and to experience bdsm. Hubby tried but absolutely could not dom me. Was very uncomfortable.

We talked and came to an agreement that marriage is a spiritual bond that does not have to be based on sex etc and does not have to be our be all end all. We agreed that its a impossible pressure and unrealistic to make another person soley responsible for the others wellbeing in any arena. To this end we agreed he gets more guy time and more alone time and that I was to be allowed to look for a dom. Because of our agreements Anal and vaginal intercourse is cheating. Oral is not. Touching with hands is not. Going against any conditon that we set including time limits etc IS even without sexual activity.

If hubby all the sudden started domming another person after refusing me that would be cheating. However him subbing for someone after appropriate discussion would not. This is a change from early in our relationship. Even looking at the opposite sex was call to accuse cheating lol

"What is considered infidelity in polyamorous relationships?" Again depends on all the agreements and ground rules and communication.

MacGuffin

09-24-2008, 02:54 AM

I have this trait...but I refuse to give up my ideals
This can be termed having the courage of your convictions. In my view this is a great quality to have. Magaret Thatcher was "accused" of this and rose to become my country's first woman prime minister and one of the greatest ever. It was said she was the only one in the cabinet with balls. .

I am very dutiful (I wish I could get rid of that particular trait) and loyal,
Sounds like qualities every person and submissive should have to me.

But when it comes to myself, I tend to be more "illogical".
This comes from the caring for others quality. You can do crazy things yourself and can handle it if it goes pear shaped, but would not want others to make the mistakes. Most parents "suffer" from this when guiding their children to adulthood. "Don't do as I do, do as I say" is the maxim.

I would rather go hungry than not speak up against wrongs being committed.
As I have said in other posts "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing". Why is it irrational to to have a "need for freedom and right". Is that not what the founding fathers of your country fought for.

I think it is highly unlikely I will ever get married
You just need to find a likeminded partner.

for the wrong reasons and they often don't mean it..after all there is always divorce.
One could say the same about Ds partners and collars. People get together for the wrong reasons.

Yes, divorce is a necessary evil
Not if time appropriate time was spent ensuring the partners are matched. If and when storms come it is the strength of the relationship that will help them both negotiate the rocks and weather the storm.

Perhaps this has to do with me placing the value on marriage as a spiritual commitment, and not as a social institution/convention
This dilemma can be easily avoided in the vows the partners make. If you say til death do us part before God then it is spiritual. The problem is many want a church wedding for the tradition or romance of the ceremony without giving thought to the contract they are making with God as witness.

I don't understand how you can stand in front of God, or people, give your word, make a commitment...then one day take it back, just because its no longer convenient, because you have found something better
I suggest you read about Sir Thomas More or see the oscar winning movie/play A Man For All Seasons. This explores the concept that divorce is breaking a solemn promise to God.

Which brings us to the matter of infidelity...
The problem here is not being honest in the partnership agreement. If I tell my partner upfront, hey I got a wandering willy and she nonetheless takes me warts and all then there is no problem. It's the deception that is the problem more than the infidelity. Most woman in my view don't worry too much about a guy being unfaithful (ignoring STD's of course) it is the possibility of a rival and being dumped. If a guy goes to a whorehouse no big deal but if he has a mistress then it is.

I began to question - is it really too much to ask of men to be sexually, as well as emotionally, faithful?
Let's go back to our animal instincts. The male has the desire to plough the field and scatter his seed to procreate and preserve the species. The female is concerned with rearing the young and needs the male to provide the food and protect against danger. I am not an anthropologist but that's the bullshit excuse I give when I get caught out, it's wasn't me it was the animal inside me. - haha just joking,

How do you deal with infidelity,...especially when there is an added element of bdsm involved?
For me in both ol and rl relationships it's not a problem because I discuss and sort it out upfront with my partner. I take the view WYSIWYG - what you see is what you get - and then it's up to the gal to accept me for what I am or reject me.

Men marry women with the hope they will never change. Women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed. -- Albert Einstein

MacGuffin

09-24-2008, 03:19 AM

badlyguidedlittlemis - Marriage to me is not something you should stay in just because you've vowed in front of people and god.
Agreed it need not be a til death do us part kinda thing but you are, in my opinion, not giving due weight to a solemn commitment. If you take the same argument to other contracts we will have breach of contract willy nilly, which of course happens and courts impose penalties to discourage it. Divorce should be an option of the last resort not a quick fix.

damyanti - Or does the dominant get to do what they want? What about sub?
I think it would depend on the limits and agreement (contract). Limits need not only be for sexual activities.

badlyguidedlittlemis - No, he can not do anything which I've said no to, as I can't do anything he has said no to. Just because he is dominant does not mean he can veto my feelings.
Ds is not an equal rights arrangement. The submissive has (within the mutually agreed limits and agreement) ceded authority to the Dom. By what authority does the sub tell the Dom what he/she can and cannot do. True he cannot veto your feelings but he can veto your actions. That is what power and authority means. If you do not like it then you don't hand over authority and we return to the basic question of what submission means.

badlyguidedlittlemis - I completely disagree, vanilla or d/s, cheating (as defined by the couples relationship) is cheating.
As I said in my other post, this depends on the agreement.

badlyguidedlittlemis - but our core relationship, the love, the trust and what keeps us loving one another is no different to my parents, who are not d/s
I get your point but it's not quite valid. BDSM is consensual, you did not choose your parents and did not agree to be spanked by them.

badlyguidedlittlemis - This is something we both agreed on.
Precisely - the upfront agreement between the partners.

badlyguidedlittlemis - Let the world do what it wants and don't think about it.
What a nice thought but we have to live in the world and must take into consideration the freedoms and restrictions it imposes.

damyanti

09-24-2008, 03:56 AM

Thank you all for commenting, its great to see different people share their view of marriage.

I especially loved your comment MacGuffin...all of that is, except this part, (the rationale of which has been my incentive to pose the question in the first place).

I began to question - is it really too much to ask of men to be sexually, as well as emotionally, faithful?
Let's go back to our animal instincts. The male has the desire to plough the field and scatter his seed to procreate and preserve the species. The female is concerned with rearing the young and needs the male to provide the food and protect against danger. I am not an anthropologist but that's the bullshit excuse I give when I get caught out, it's wasn't me it was the animal inside me. - haha just joking,
[/I]

Permission to puke, sir, :p. Btw, whatever happened to that superior dominant (self)control, :blurp_ani.

MacGuffin

09-24-2008, 05:00 AM

damyanti

09-24-2008, 07:05 AM

especially loved your comment MacGuffin...all of that is, except this part, (the rationale of which has been my incentive to pose the question in the first place)..................Permission to puke, sir,

Which part made you puke. The fact that gender, instinct and procreation may be a factor in male promiscuity or the part where I added "just joking" as a suffix.

The topic of promiscuity is of course subject to debate but it is not so pukeable as you may think and does have the support of of many in the scientific community. http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14641-monogamy-gene-found-in-people.html?feedId=online-news_rss20

I stand by my defence. It's not my fault darling the problem is in my jeans.

whatever happened to that superior dominant (self)control
Not sure domination is about self control. Take note of the tagline to my nick, "Do What Thou Wilt". That was the motto of the notorious Hellfire Club. I do not consider myself to be a bdsm Dom. The usa style bdsm largely born out of the gay leather community is not where I am coming from, I prefer far older models and codes.

The part where men plead "primitive procreation urge" as an excuse for cheating. Frankly, as a man, don't you find that insulting...it suggests that only women have evolved from the "cave days"?

Here is an extract from the article I mentioned, hubby telling his story:

"This time two years ago, my wife and I were staying in a hotel in Rome together. I was there on business, and Stephanie asked her mother to look after the children so that she could fly out to join me.

I remember sitting on the balcony of our hotel after dinner, thinking I had everything a man could wish for - a beautiful wife, two gorgeous sons, a lovely house and a well-paid and challenging career.

If someone had told me then that I was about to risk it all for the sake of an affair, I'd never have believed them.

I'm not trying to make excuses for myself. There are none. The bottom line is I met a woman I found attractive, and I slept with her. I could go on about how overwhelming my feelings were at the time, and how I couldn't help myself succumbing to them. But I'd be deceiving myself.

Any husband, or wife, who cheats on their spouse at some point takes a conscious decision to do so. If you don't want to risk destroying your marriage, you walk away from temptation. I know now I should have done that the moment I first realised I was falling for Kate, my work colleague.

I will always be sorry I didn't. Instead, I deluded myself that I was in love, behaving more like a reckless teenager than a middle-aged father of two." (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1060714/How-I-convince-wife-I-love-cheat-again.html)

MacGuffin

09-24-2008, 08:41 AM

damyanti - The part where men plead "primitive procreation urge" as an excuse for cheating. Frankly, as a man, don't you find that insulting...it suggests that only women have evolved from the "cave days"?

Slow down slow down. We may have a cross wire here. I stated that men may have a biological impulse to be more promiscuous than women. You may dispute that but there are many who hold that view. It seems like you may be twisting that comment to make it seem like I said it was a justifiable excuse.

Our caveman instict tells us to kill somebody who threatens us but out developed society tells us it's wrong. Most of us don't hit out when we are annoyed but many do because they are following their instincts. I find it strange that we are putting men on the moon but war (sic Iraq) still seems to be the prefered method of conflict resolution. Women have not developed any faster from the cave age than men. The primal insticts is for the welfare of the young still and for that they need the male to be around and not off with another female. Surely I am not saying anything revolutionary by suggesting that primeval instincts still play a part in how we behave. Why do american females spend trillions on make up compared to men. Is that not the natural instinct to attact the male at work.

Yes of course you are perfectly correct that it is not an accpetable excuse. There are many cases in life where we have to overide our animal instincts else I would be clubbing you on the head and dragging you back to my cave now.

If you are suggesting that I think it is an excuse because of my "it wasn't me it was the animal inside me" comment then hey look at the words "haha just joking" and take a guess whether I believed it's a justifiable excuse or not.

PS - Just spotted my "I stand by my defence. It's not my fault darling the problem is in my jeans." comment. No I didn't mean that. That was an attempt at humor not to be taken seriously. I do maintain that man has primitive urges but yes his brain should override his cock.

badlyguidedlittlemis

09-24-2008, 09:13 AM

badlyguidedlittlemis - No, he can not do anything which I've said no to, as I can't do anything he has said no to. Just because he is dominant does not mean he can veto my feelings.
Ds is not an equal rights arrangement. The submissive has (within the mutually agreed limits and agreement) ceded authority to the Dom. By what authority does the sub tell the Dom what he/she can and cannot do. True he cannot veto your feelings but he can veto your actions. That is what power and authority means. If you do not like it then you don't hand over authority and we return to the basic question of what submission means.
I was speaking of my own relationship, I have been encouraged by my dominant to express my opinion as to what my wishes were, or what my needs are. He does this because I have been stifled before and it caused negative behaviours which I'm trying to shift. I'm quite baffled by your response to this as this is how we work our dynamic and it is not an unhealthy thing for him to ask of me, in fact I think it's a good thing. He wouldn't veto my actions of something we had previously agreed on, such as playing with other people. He can stop me posting on a board, stop me going to the pub and all those things but he can't make me change an actions previously defined.

I am however allowed to change my own actions to suit his changing needs if I want to.

badlyguidedlittlemis - but our core relationship, the love, the trust and what keeps us loving one another is no different to my parents, who are not d/s
I get your point but it's not quite valid. BDSM is consensual, you did not choose your parents and did not agree to be spanked by them.
I wasn't talking about my parent's spanking me, I was saying my parents' relationship with each other is non d/s where my relationship with my dominant is, and the core relationship is just as strong regardless of bdsm being involved or not..

Ozme52

09-24-2008, 09:40 AM

God I hate these threads. They start as an inquiry, someone with actual questions and a desire for some input...

..and eventually we get to this vitriolic diatribe!!

Euryleia

09-24-2008, 10:49 AM

Is it really too much to ask of men to be sexually, as well as emotionally, faithful?

Probably. That's why I only get sexually and emotionally involved with women, although they too can have problems with being faithful.

Why would you marry someone with whom you are not honest, someone to whom you cant trust?

I assume that those who do so, have good reasons for their choices--it could be they need safety or security for their children, for one.

How do you deal with infidelity (in more conventional relationships),...especially when there is an added element of bdsm involved?

I make it very clear in any relationship that I'm in, that I don't share with anyone else. If they don't agree with that basic tenet, we go no futher. If during the course of the relationship, they are unfaithful, they will never touch me again. PERIOD

What do you consider infidelity in bdsm? Is there such a thing?

BDSM doesn't necessarily mean free-for-all orgies. I totally believe in committed partnerships and feel there is no need to bring anyone else into our play. Infidelity in BDSM is just like that of any other relationship--having a physical/emotional connection outside of the primary relationship. I think all parties need to communicate openly what their needs and desires are. With clarity and honesty, you can have faithful BDSM relationships that satisfy everyone.

Or does the dominant get to do what they want? What about sub?

Again, this would be up to the individual players. As the Dominant, I don't play with anyone else and I don't share my girl with anyone. I expect her to do the same.

What about domming and subbing others, is that considered infidelity?

If you both have communicated that part of your relationship is to involve others, then no. In my case, Domming or subbing others, because of the intense emotional connection, would be infidelity.

What is considered infidelity in polyamorous relationships?

Just because your partnership involves more people, does not mean that relations outside of the group are acceptable. Infidelity is the same thing--going outside of the primary group for physical or emotional connections. Again, communication is key. As a group you must decide what the boundaries are and the consequences for when someone strays.

As far as your other issue:

Marriage has, since its inception as an institution, had more to do with social control and transfer of goods than a sacred bond. It was designed as a way for men to be sure that the children produced by the union were theirs and for Father's to safely transfer their wealth to the next generation. God only got involved because the church wanted to protect those same ideals.

Does that mean that a genuine committment made by individuals is worthless? Not at all. Committments like marriage serve a number of needs, from a way to achieve social acceptance, to the financial benefits of the tax code, to mutual satisfaction. I believe that entering one is a serious decision and should never be taken lightly. When you give your word to love and cherish, you should keep it. However, circumstances can change(some people grow and evolve, some people devolve) and you should be free to reasses if what you agreed to do is still even possible. If your needs aren't being met, then you should end the relationship.

damyanti

09-24-2008, 10:52 AM

Infidelity is the worst thing you could do in a committed relationship and I have zero tolerance for it. There is no reason why (while in a relationship) one should seek out another for anything on an intimate level. NO reason. Apparently it's NOT just sex. Every woman has a pussy. What makes that woman's crotch so much more interesting? Same with men. You're man ha a Dick. What makes that other dick so much more interesting?

I can agree with this point of view, I understand where you are coming from.

As for the rest, I am single, bambina.

I read a few things lately (I like to read), it got me thinking, and I wanted to hear different thoughts people here had on that topic...how they see marriage, what it means to them, and whats a bdsm take on infidelity. I wasn't looking for a permission to cheat, just to discuss things.

Ragoczy

09-24-2008, 12:57 PM

God I hate these threads. They start as an inquiry, someone with actual questions and a desire for some input...

..and eventually we get to this vitriolic diatribe!!

But you see, Oz, that's her take on infidelity and what defines infidelity for her. That's valuable input for someone facing a situation where they're considering being unfaithful, because that "vitriol" may be exactly what that person's partner reacts with. And no amount of calm, reasoned arguments by us uninvolved folks will make a difference in that.

When the partner is reacting with that "vitriol", saying "but so-and-so on the website didn't think it would be cheating" is a less than effective argument.

Ragoczy

09-24-2008, 01:07 PM

Is the "you" in your post referring to a specific person or is it generic-"someone"?

I think some people may be taking this as being directed at an individual, but I got the feeling it was more just your pattern of speech to use "you"?

IAmCanadian

09-24-2008, 01:13 PM

What do you consider infidelity in bdsm? Is there such a thing?

I believe that infidelity in a BDSM relationship can be a greater tragedy than "normal".

While marriage is a weighty and meaningful institution, slavery and submission are even greater commitments. There is an entire process devoted to the dissolution of marriages, but submission to a master is something done outside the law, and inside the human heart.

I try to imagine how I would feel if the slave that I had treasured somehow went astray, falling into the arms of another. To me, it's unthinkable. In the ideal relationship I envision, I would be her life, and she mine- I would be her guiding star in all things, and she my greatest treasure. Like a guardsman standing through a hurricane, at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier, I would protect her. Like the most treasured of all properties, I would keepsafe her and raise her to a place of prominence in my heart.

Infidelity in such a case seems unfathomable. To have her taken away from me by the slick words and temptations of another would destroy me- and for me to invest so much in her and then move on to another would be the ultimate cruelty. Like throwing my precious treasure into the marsh at the side of the road. No master should be able to look himself in the mirror if he does such a thing.

It's certainly true that there's a lot of kink involved with BDSM and there may be other men or women involved in the course of exploring sexual ideas and desires. But the bond between master and slave that forms inside their respective hearts, that yin-yang covenent of mutual absolution and acceptance, is so solemn a pact that I think infidelity even more a sin in this case than in the case of a traditional marriage.

I should add before I go, though, that every relationship is different. Not every couple aspires to that sort of devotion, and the tragedy level of any given indiscretion fluctuates with the value of the relationship which it betrays.

- FS

Ozme52

09-24-2008, 01:50 PM

But you see, Oz, that's her take on infidelity and what defines infidelity for her. That's valuable input for someone facing a situation where they're considering being unfaithful, because that "vitriol" may be exactly what that person's partner reacts with. And no amount of calm, reasoned arguments by us uninvolved folks will make a difference in that.

When the partner is reacting with that "vitriol", saying "but so-and-so on the website didn't think it would be cheating" is a less than effective argument.

Sorry brother but if you go back and read it again... she's calling out anyone who lives differently and is calling them... us...
down right sleezy, good-for-nothing, selfish, maniacal bunch of sh!ts.

Ozme52

09-24-2008, 01:52 PM

Bambina,

Is the "you" in your post referring to a specific person or is it generic-"someone"?

I think some people may be taking this as being directed at an individual, but I got the feeling it was more just your pattern of speech to use "you"?

Bull!! Her intent is clear.
It's despicable, and I am not afraid to say that those who cheat are down right sleezy, good-for-nothing, selfish, maniacal bunch of sh!ts.

And let's be clear about her use of the language. She's not making any consideration for any form of infidelity. Permission granted or not, open relationship or not, poly or not. Hell, by her words, poly itself is infidelity.

Infidelity is the worst thing you could do in a committed relationship and I have zero tolerance for it. There is no reason why (while in a relationship) one should seek out another for anything on an intimate level. NO reason.

hopperboo

09-24-2008, 02:02 PM

I think you had some very valid points. Great post.

I think there is too much of it (marriage), I think people do it too easily, too laconically, for the wrong reasons and they often don't mean it....after all there is always divorce.
I very much agree with you. People are becoming more and more flighty about marriage. It's not a life commitment anymore, it's a moment commitment, a moment until someone says something another doesn't like, someone isn't happy for 3 minutes, or things get difficult for a period of time.

Yes, divorce is a necessary evil, but short of serious mental and physical abuse (and ironically, its those who rarely leave) I don't believe in it.

I don't understand how you can stand in front of God, or people, give your word, make a commitment...then one day take it back
I agree. Though I believe infidelity for some is a reason for divorce. Some couples can overcome that, and others cannot.

I also don't understand how people can be so easy going with marriage vows. It's especially hard for me when it's a person (or couple) who is very religious (Christian wise) and they just throw it off as a "mistake." My cousin did this a year ago...she was/is very involved with her church, and makes comment when I say the word "Hell," however last summer she took marriage vows to God and all and she got a divorce five days later. To me that is a slap in the face not only to family, but of course to God as well. (And get this - her and her ex-husband kept all the gifts). She plays the part of victim very well.

Seeing all the vanilla people getting divorced "just" because he cheated and finding it silly, ever since I was 9, my firm view on that was:...as long as he doesn't fall in love with whats above the neck, sometimes sex is just sex, isn't it? What would be the deal breaker...is him lying, or even not telling me about it. Honesty and loyalty, I value above all else.

But recently, while still holding that belief, I began to question - is it really too much to ask of men to be sexually, as well as emotionally, faithful
I expect to have a fully faithful husband. And I will not settle for anything less. If a rocky part in the marriage occurs I would hope it would be able to be fixed, and we would move on from there, but I would not ever stand for being cheated on. Ever.

Within BDSM, I think some couples are more free with their bodies and emotions in relationships. Personally I don't understand taking a marriage vow and then having sex/emotional relationship with others when marriage vows are to bind two together, not 4 or 5 or 6...but to each their own. It's not something I would want for my relationship or marriage.

Ragoczy

09-24-2008, 02:15 PM

Sorry brother but if you go back and read it again... she's calling out anyone who lives differently and is calling them... us...

I read it fine, it's called a moral judgment. I believe that someone who's unfaithful -- and please note that I mean "unfaithful" by the standards of their relationship and not my own -- is far worse than "down right sleezy, good-for-nothing, selfish, maniacal bunch of sh!ts."

I have zero respect for someone who knowingly betrays the trust of their partner.

Now to the point I was trying to make that you responded to:

If someone reading this thread is facing a decision, then that post is a valuable one for them to read because their partner may have the same attitude. And when their partner finds out and is screaming at them that they're a sleazy, god-for-nothing, selfish, maniacal little shit, them saying "well, Ozme said ..." will not have a calming effect. So being exposed to that perspective may save someone some grief.

Ragoczy

09-24-2008, 02:20 PM

Bull!! Her intent is clear.

And let's be clear about her use of the language. She's not making any consideration for any form of infidelity. Permission granted or not, open relationship or not, poly or not. Hell, by her words, poly itself is infidelity.

Well, it clearly wasn't clear, because I didn't necessarily take it that way. I leave some room for the possibility that, in forming her post, she used the word "you" generically and possibly neglected to articulate a "without prior agreement"-clause, maybe thinking it was understood in the context.

So I asked a question to clarify ... is that so unreasonable?

IAmCanadian

09-24-2008, 02:22 PM

And let's be clear about her use of the language. She's not making any consideration for any form of infidelity. Permission granted or not, open relationship or not, poly or not.

I mean...this just isn't true. She obviously means "cheating without permission", a true act of betrayal. Infidelity with no reason behind it besides feeding sexual urges. Considerations are implicit if you just look at the intent.

You're way off base here. Not sure how else to say it. I am baffled by your response.

Sorry brother but if you go back and read it again... she's calling out anyone who lives differently.

This actually couldn't be any less true. It's like a contest was held to see who could misunderstand her statement the most, and you really needed the prize money. Let me quote from her post:

If you live in a Vanilla relationship and you long for one that deals with BDSM then you have some decisions to make.

Don't be dishonest and unfaithful to your spouse because of YOUR need for something different.

What part of the above makes you believe that she is condemning polyamorous relationships, open relationships, or just plain swinging? The only topic explicitly addressed by her post was dishonesty in a conventional marriage. Even when talking more generally, she uses phrases like dishonest and unfaithful. How could those words be a condemnation of polyamory or open relationships, wherein the secondary sex partners are agreed-upon and there is no deception?

Just a ridiculous overreaction.

- FS

cadence

09-24-2008, 02:54 PM

I think it is highly unlikely I will ever get married, not because I am a "loose liberal infidel" (as I let most believe) who doesn't believe in it, but because I believe in it too much.

I have never been a fan of marriage, only because I believe it wrecks a relationship. I'm not saying that it does for every marriage, but the ones I have seen go sour all too quickly. I just don't see the point in it.

I don't understand how you can stand in front of God, or people, give your word, make a commitment...then one day take it back, just because its no longer convenient, because you have found something better, because you have to go and find yourself? (And I question that regardless of what religion and deity you subscribe to, even atheists believe in something.)

I don't think that people just one day decide that things are no longer convenient. I believe that most who do wander away from commitments do take the time to think carefully about thier situations. Maybe some don't, but I would believe it's a very small minority.
People change over time, so do thier ideals, thier convictions, and thier lives. Some decide to move in a different direction, others opt to stay and work through changes. It's all in what a person wants for themselves.

Which brings us to the matter of infidelity...

is it really too much to ask of men to be sexually, as well as emotionally, faithful?

I don't think it's always the men who are the culprits, I don't care about the sexual aspects, I only care about the emotional and ask that my partner be honest and forthcoming with me.

Why would you marry someone with whom you are not honest, someone to whom you cant trust?

Again, I don't think you marry someone with the full intentions of being dishonest and untrustworthy, as I said things can change.
If you go into a marriage with full intentions of destroying it, I would have to ask the same question.

How do you deal with infidelity (in more conventional relationships),...especially when there is an added element of bdsm involved?

What do you consider infidelity in bdsm? Is there such a thing?

Or does the dominant get to do what they want? What about sub?

What about domming and subbing others, is that considered infidelity?

What is considered infidelity in polyamorous relationships?

Infidelity is infidelity, how you handle that is your own business. I don't think that infidelity in BDSM relationships are any different in vanilla ones.
There is an obvious breakdown of trust and communication if it is prevalent.

If a Dominant or submissive wants to play with others, or be involved in multiple relationships than it should be discussed with all parties involved. It's not infidelity when everyone is on the same page.

cadence

09-24-2008, 03:27 PM

Just a ridiculous overreaction.

- FS

Honestly I would have to side with Oz, and while he might have read more into it than others have, I still side with him for the general fact that everytime a thread mentions infidelity, there are always those who will voice thier opinions a little too voraciously.

I'm not saying that infidelity is not wrong, yes we all know it's wrong. I'm not disputing that.

While I appreciate that everyone has an opinion to share, the opinions tend to become a tad to focused and beligerent to others in general.

Sure maybe some people deserve the title of a few choice names, but that does not mean that everyone should be tagged and labled deviant and not worthy of being a human being.

IAmCanadian

09-24-2008, 03:59 PM

Honestly I would have to side with Oz, and while he might have read more into it than others have, I still side with him for the general fact that everytime a thread mentions infidelity, there are always those who will voice thier opinions a little too voraciously.

There's a difference between arguing that the message was overly voracious and arguing that it says something about a certain lifestyle when it clearly doesn't.

If Oz wanted to argue that she was being unfair in emphatically denouncing the dishonest, deceptive brand of infidelity just because sometimes there are extenuating circumstances, why didn't he just make that argument?

Instead, he tried to say that she was speaking against polyamory, open relationships, and swinging. When she obviously wasn't.

- FS

Ozme52

09-24-2008, 04:18 PM

Well, it clearly wasn't clear, because I didn't necessarily take it that way. I leave some room for the possibility that, in forming her post, she used the word "you" generically and possibly neglected to articulate a "without prior agreement"-clause, maybe thinking it was understood in the context.

So I asked a question to clarify ... is that so unreasonable?

If she hadn't been clear in her "No Reason" statement, if she hadn't been very clear that she doesn't mind calling all of us sh!ts, I wouldn't have responded as I had.

Perhaps you didn't take it as a directed statement because it wasn't directed at activities you partake in... this time.

cadence

09-24-2008, 04:22 PM

There's a difference between arguing that the message was overly voracious and arguing that it says something about a certain lifestyle when it clearly doesn't.

If Oz wanted to argue that she was being unfair in emphatically denouncing the dishonest, deceptive brand of infidelity just because sometimes there are extenuating circumstances, why didn't he just make that argument?

Instead, he tried to say that she was speaking against polyamory, open relationships, and swinging. When she obviously wasn't.

- FS

Yes you are correct, I shouldn't have taken your quote and used it. I was more or less talking about the first statement he made.
That would make me guilty of jumping the gun, but hey I'm not super perfect.
I can't say whether or not bambina used her dislike of infidelity and asscociated it with poly or other relationships. Only she can clarify it.

Ozme52

09-24-2008, 04:39 PM

There's a difference between arguing that the message was overly voracious and arguing that it says something about a certain lifestyle when it clearly doesn't.

If Oz wanted to argue that she was being unfair in emphatically denouncing the dishonest, deceptive brand of infidelity just because sometimes there are extenuating circumstances, why didn't he just make that argument?

Instead, he tried to say that she was speaking against polyamory, open relationships, and swinging. When she obviously wasn't.

- FS

I've only commented on her style... and argue against her defenders.

And my comment was about how infidelity discussions inevitably end up with such diatribes. I made no comments previously about any of the opinions stated that were clearly opinions held... those made without attacks.

denuseri

09-24-2008, 05:06 PM

Ozme52

09-24-2008, 05:18 PM

As the practicioners of my husbands faith would say " and it harm not others do as thou will.

Seriously if all of the parties in a relationship agree, and are happy, isnt that what its all about?

Isint it bad enough that as a group just be being into bdsm we are stereotyped and judged?

Tis true denuseri. It always amazes me how narrow minded bdsm-ers can be when talking about someone else's kink... or a limit that they have that isn't on someone else's limit list.

Ragoczy

09-24-2008, 06:16 PM

If she hadn't been clear in her "No Reason" statement, if she hadn't been very clear that she doesn't mind calling all of us sh!ts, I wouldn't have responded as I had.

Perhaps you didn't take it as a directed statement because it wasn't directed at activities you partake in... this time.

And, again, I'm simply saying that with so much of this discussion having the qualifier of defining infidelity as being where all of the parties haven't consented, she may have assumed that was understood and left the qualifier off. And, having that doubt, I'd prefer to ask if it was her intent to call consenting parties shits or if she really meant just those who go behind their partner's backs.

If she meant that someone whose partner says, "sure, honey, go bang so-and-so", then I have issue with the position -- if she meant just those who sneak, lie and betray, then I support it; because that does harm, not only to the betrayed partner, but often to every future relationship that partner may have.

There is "no reason" to do something that so betrays the trust of someone you've made a pledge to.

Ragoczy

09-24-2008, 06:22 PM

Tis true denuseri. It always amazes me how narrow minded bdsm-ers can be when talking about someone else's kink... or a limit that they have that isn't on someone else's limit list.

Would you not agree that there's a different between a consensual, open relationship and a circumstance where one partner believes the relationship is monogamous and the other is betraying that trust?

Daumon

09-24-2008, 07:04 PM

Hi denuseri,

First you are critical of qualities in yourself that are charming and very admirable. You seem to show more concern for others than yourself.

Second, you people often get into relationships for a misguided or wrong reasons. Before you are ready to share yourself and life with someone you have to really know and understand yourself. Otherwise you find as many unhappy surpised in a relationship of your making as your partner. Its best not to be discovering yourself when your trying to balance a relationship.

any relationship is built around trust, faith and understanding. Friendship, dating, marriage or D/s relationships all need these. Alot of what happens in a relationship depend on the expections you start with and what changes you are willing to accept to stay in one. You spoke of the woman being crtizied for staying in an abusive relationship. That the poeople writtinmg in could not accpet or understand her staying despite the abuse to try and work things out. Society now does not seem to be willing to allow anyone to make judgement calls on thier own any more. In such a relationship a person has the right to weigh the fear and danger of abuse against the value they place in the person and relastionship they are trying to keep. As an adult we have that right and responcablity to make those judgement calls ourselves. Its far to often that people want to cut and run in any relationship at the first sign of trouble.

Now as to infidelity in a relationship. YOU really like hard questions dont you.
In an ideal world two people would fill each outhers needs completely and neither would need or want anything serious outside their relationship. However , both men and woman each have resons to look outside their choosen partner for a need thats not being completely met. So, the first thing that hits most poeple is that they are failing to make their partner happy. So they have the guilt of failing to make them happy mixed with fear and anger because they worry 'whats wrong with me .... why cannt they be happy with me?' So you have to ask yourself do you and your partner have an exclusive relationship. Do you know for sure they understand it and want that too. Do you have a closed relationship or an open one? If the issue has NEVER come up or been discusssed EXPECT that your partner assumes its open. The expectation is that in a BDSM relationship you can play around since you already are WAY outside of normal conventions. So the question is how does it affect you once your partner ends up with someone else. Was it just sex, a meaningless fling or a one time mistake. Do you accpet their word it will never happen again if they evne promise it? What if they tell you its now the first time and not liekly the last? Is that the end of the relationship? Is it a deal breaker? it goes back to the adult value call. Is the infidility worth the relationship you want to have. is it worth excepting as part of the reality of what the relationship really is. Each person need sto dexice if it is for them. I wish you luck in making such a choice and living with it once made.

Daumon

hopperboo

09-24-2008, 07:12 PM

Would you not agree that there's a different between a consensual, open relationship and a circumstance where one partner believes the relationship is monogamous and the other is betraying that trust?
Yup.

And just to add in my two cents about the judgments...everyone judges. It's healthy to judge. To form opinions. It doesn't mean one has to be nasty about it. People judge in different ways. Some people judge on moral values, religious values, and some people judge on judging others. lol. If you can follow that.

I believe there is little to none of us that never judge a person. I have found that many who are screaming "don't judge me, I don't judge you" really ARE judging just as (if not more) harshly those people that form opinions right away.

(And like I said, just because a person forms an opinion and will not be swayed doesn't make them a bad person, nor do their opinions need to be shared in a mean or hurtful way).

denuseri

09-24-2008, 08:49 PM

Daumon i must admit you post confused the heck out of me,, is the whole thing addresed to me or just part???

i am indeed wondering where i spoke in this thread about a woman being critisized for stayng in an abuseive relationship, as well as allmost everything else mentioned in the rest of Sir's post.

Faibhar

09-24-2008, 09:12 PM

Please, say it isn't so!

Daumon

09-24-2008, 09:21 PM

Denuseri,

My apologies ... the post was in responce to damyanti origioan post and some how i got your name by mistake.

jeanne

09-24-2008, 09:30 PM

Ozme52

09-24-2008, 09:38 PM

Thanks for clarifying... I hope you see how being imprecise can lead to misperceptions...

So on to the rest.

So those who commit to love... and stop loving...
Those who commit to honor... and stop honoring...
Those who commit to cherish... and stop cherishing...

That's all okay. And the person who sees all the other vows broken, who may have children to consider, who may not be financially ready to leave, who may even be abused... he or she is a selfish dog for looking for companionship?

Sorry but YOU, are empty of compassion.

Ragoczy

09-24-2008, 09:41 PM

I think you've made yourself very clear. Perhaps not in ways you intended...but a by-product of harsh, black-and-white, judgemental, caustic, ugly, name-calling statements is that others see you more clearly than you might like.

Thanks for sharing! :wave:

So you see nothing wrong or at all worthy of rebuke in someone betraying a trust and causing hurt to those who trust them?

IAmCanadian

09-24-2008, 09:52 PM

Thanks for clarifying... I hope you see how being imprecise can lead to misperceptions...

I'm pretty sure she was saying "clarifying" ironically since she wasn't being unclear in the first place. You took the most farfetched interpretation of her remarks possible, and then argued against it.

So on to the rest.

So those who commit to love... and stop loving...
Those who commit to honor... and stop honoring...
Those who commit to cherish... and stop cherishing...

That's all okay. And the person who sees all the other vows broken, who may have children to consider, who may not be financially ready to leave, who may even be abused... he or she is a selfish dog for looking for companionship?

Sorry but YOU, are empty of compassion.

If you want to argue against some mystery person who is flat-out saying that a person in the situation you described should be condemned, then maybe you should start your own thread, and argue against yourself, and the straw-man you keep pulling out of nowhere.

She isn't making the argument that you just described. Nobody here is making it. You are actually just making this position up out of thin air, and then arguing against it.

EDIT: But I could be wrong since she just posted this:

Oh my God you think it's okay for someone to cheat on their spouse just because they treat them bad? Not only is that stupid but it's immature.

This is closer to the argument you suspected was hiding behind her words. But it certainly wasn't present at the time you posted.

Ragoczy

09-24-2008, 09:58 PM

Ragoczy

09-24-2008, 10:03 PM

EDIT: But I could be wrong since she just posted this:

This is closer to the argument you suspected was hiding behind her words. But it certainly wasn't present at the time you posted.

I think the point being made was along the lines of "don't sneak around". End the relationship first, which eliminates the subsequent acts as infidelity.

Ozme52

09-24-2008, 10:04 PM

Sure it was F.S. ... and I only regret saying she was without compassion...

because now I really can't complain for her calling me stupid.

FS. Too bad I was right, however, that what you claim was unsaid until just now... was clearly obvious to me.

and my "strawman" as you call it, was a question. Posed to her to obtain further clarification. And she made it clear, there are NO Reasons that disqualify those who find happiness where they can... from being low down dogs.

I guess it's okay for you to assume what she means but not okay for me to actually ask.

hopperboo

09-24-2008, 10:16 PM

I agree with Raz's post.

It isn't okay for someone to seek out a sexual relationship when in a committed relationship. (imho).

I think there are times in some relationships when cheating does happen, and it may happen for a more valid reason than some. Hopefully when that does happen the couple is able to get by it and still have a strong relationship.

However...if one cheats in a relationship and has no problems in doing so, nor any care to fix or end the current marriage or committed relationship then I agree with Bambina. As for children, that is just more of a reason to work harder with the partner to fix things...not to run away. And as for the men and women that cheat out of purely selfish reasons that have children and a spouse to think of...ugh. THOSE are the people that deserve to be called slime.

A close family friend of mine was in that situation with four children and her husband stepped out of the marriage - ongoing for two years. When she finally 'caught' him she said she wanted to work on the marriage, they went to counseling...but he wouldn't stop. That isn't a decent man. Do I have compassion for him? No. Do I feel bad for not feeling compassion for him? Absolutely not. He ripped those kids lives apart, not to mention his wife's.

And here's another kicker. The other woman was married with five children.

Nice couple of people right?

Ozme52

09-24-2008, 10:22 PM

I guess I'm done with this thread... as the more people chime in and feel it's okay to call others dogs and slime, the less interested I am in the discussion.

I will repeat. I ONLY commented on the tone of the post.

bambina

09-24-2008, 10:27 PM

I call them like I see them....

FrozenGrapes

09-24-2008, 10:40 PM

:confused:

SnickerKitten

09-24-2008, 11:03 PM

So those who commit to love... and stop loving...
Those who commit to honor... and stop honoring...
Those who commit to cherish... and stop cherishing...

That's all okay. And the person who sees all the other vows broken, who may have children to consider, who may not be financially ready to leave, who may even be abused... he or she is a selfish dog for looking for companionship?

Sorry but YOU, are empty of compassion.

So, according to what you say, it would have been perfectly okay for me to "find companionship" while still married to my ex-husband???
Stop loving him? Oh hell yeah, when his bipolar ass went off his meds and he stopped going to therapy and started escalating his behaviors, I definately stopped loving him.
Stop honoring him??? After he had told me that his father molested him as a child and his father wasn't to be around our child... to go off his meds and decide that it was ok for his father to be around her - what was there to honor in a man that would do that to his child????
Stop cherishing him?? There were a myriad of reasons to stop cherishing him.

So the way I should have taken care of myself in that situation would have been to hunt up some "companionship" on the side? Why? To make myself as bad as him, but in a different way?

Did I have children to consider? Yes, I had two. After having lost that much faith in the idiot I had married I should have reduced myself by being unfaithful but remaining married??? Not financially ready to leave? Oh believe me, I was in NO way financially ready to leave. Abused? Oh good heavens was I ever verbally abused- he only physically abused me once and believe me I made it abundantly clear by giving him a concussion that that wasn't going continue... so when he was so frustrated at not being able to hit me he turned to our daughter and dragged her down the hall by her ankle so her shirt rode up and she got rug burn on her back- the scar from which took YEARS to fade. But I should have stayed and gotten myself a fuckbuddy????

I seriously would have been justified in having an affair???? Like hell.

What I did was the right thing- the ONLY acceptable thing to do in a situation like that. I kicked his ass to the curb. I sent him home to his mommy and daddy.

THEN and ONLY then did I seek out and find companionship.

When I found that companionship, I was clear up front with each and every contact I made that I had NOOOOO intention of forming a monogamous relationship, that "dating" and "playing" were as far as it was going to go.

Damn that freak Ragoczy for getting under my skin and making me need to be monogamous with him. Damn him again for wanting to marry me. I wanted to NEVER be married again but faced with the choice of being married to him or ruining what we had -I chose marriage (and a collar) with all it's accoutrements INCLUDING fidelity.

Now, if his marvelous self were to change from the amazing, wonderful, caring, beloved, controlling, micro-managing, Domly person that he is into an abusive jerk or an unfaithful bastard then you damn well better believe I won't be out there finding a "companion" to comfort myself. I'll be kicking his ass to the curb- FIRST.

I'm with Bambina- someone that breaks the pact of fidelity without their partners knowledge and consent is lower than lobster shit.

*snuggling back up to Ragoczy's knees and going back to being his happy subby*

-kitten

damyanti

09-24-2008, 11:23 PM

Hi Daumon

First you are critical of qualities in yourself that are charming and very admirable. You seem to show more concern for others than yourself.

Its charming that you think they are, but they don't make life easy.

Second, you people often get into relationships for a misguided or wrong reasons. Before you are ready to share yourself and life with someone you have to really know and understand yourself. Otherwise you find as many unhappy surpised in a relationship of your making as your partner. Its best not to be discovering yourself when your trying to balance a relationship.

I think its kind of fun to discover things together...if you get into the relationship for the right reasons and that those reasons are clear to both parties.

any relationship is built around trust, faith and understanding. Friendship, dating, marriage or D/s relationships all need these. Alot of what happens in a relationship depend on the expections you start with and what changes you are willing to accept to stay in one.

Just said that, but you say it better.

You spoke of the woman being crtizied for staying in an abusive relationship. That the poeople writtinmg in could not accpet or understand her staying despite the abuse to try and work things out. Society now does not seem to be willing to allow anyone to make judgement calls on thier own any more. In such a relationship a person has the right to weigh the fear and danger of abuse against the value they place in the person and relastionship they are trying to keep. As an adult we have that right and responcablity to make those judgement calls ourselves. Its far to often that people want to cut and run in any relationship at the first sign of trouble.

*nodding a lot*

Now as to infidelity in a relationship. YOU really like hard questions dont you.

Yes, yes I do, lol. But you said you find that charming, :blurp_ani, lol.

In an ideal world two people would fill each outhers needs completely and neither would need or want anything serious outside their relationship. However , both men and woman each have resons to look outside their choosen partner for a need thats not being completely met. So, the first thing that hits most poeple is that they are failing to make their partner happy. So they have the guilt of failing to make them happy mixed with fear and anger because they worry 'whats wrong with me .... why cannt they be happy with me?'

(I'm a girl, so I speak from female perspective.) What is often the biggest problem is when people are less than open with what they want, where they stand and how they really feel. Its a nice sentiment, trying to spare other persons feelings, but shouldn't we be more adult at being able to say "You are nice, but you are not my type" instead of dating and going from one phase to another, until you end up married to a person (because thats expected) who isn't your true partner, with whom you are staying out of convenience, but always keeping your one eye open for the next best thing?

If you are not sure about "the person" being perfect for you (while not being perfect) and willing to preserve in the relationship at all cost, why bother marrying at all? (No, I am not making a judgment call for others, and I know its not applicable to society at large, but in my own personal matters I tend to be illogical and follow my gut instinct...so the thought continues to nag at me).

So you have to ask yourself do you and your partner have an exclusive relationship. Do you know for sure they understand it and want that too.

A very good point...and something I find not easy to do. If I ask for just a bit of a clarification..."he" assumes I am putting him on the spot, and far, far worse has a tendency to go with the flow (unless he already has something "better" going) and say what he thinks I want to hear.

Do you have a closed relationship or an open one? If the issue has NEVER come up or been discusssed EXPECT that your partner assumes its open.

Not to dispute that many people practice that...I disagree. Its like "assuming guilt, before proving innocence", rather than giving benefit of the doubt about the person "being innocent, until proven guilty", no?

I tend to believe that generally, unless discussed otherwise, monogamy is implied as the default setting, in dating, but especially in marriage or similar commitment. I do understand what you are saying and that a lot of people use it as a "justification card", but I still feel its wrong...what grates me the most, I find the lack of honesty terribly annoying.

There is a saying, which I think sounds cool, "I caught him the old fashioned way - with manipulation", but is completely opposite of the way I am. And I think a lot of men subscribe to it. I like things to be clear. Playing is fun, but being "played"...if I didn't want to hear the answer, I wouldn't ask the question, and yet when I ask "him" to be honest I often get the feeling he is giving me a "sure you do" look and he proceeds to tell me what he thinks will get him what he wants.

The expectation is that in a BDSM relationship you can play around since you already are WAY outside of normal conventions.

True, but it doesn't change the fact its faulty logic and makes me label them "not worth my time".

So the question is how does it affect you once your partner ends up with someone else.

I hope I never have to deal with that, though statistic is against me...hence my caution with commitment to the point of phobia. I am not averse to it (at least I hope I wouldn't be), but I feel no desperate need (like some of my friends) to pair up just for the sake of it...perhaps I am an odd one out, but I prefer to be single, than make a commitment I will regret later.

Was it just sex, a meaningless fling or a one time mistake. Do you accpet their word it will never happen again if they evne promise it? What if they tell you its now the first time and not liekly the last? Is that the end of the relationship? Is it a deal breaker? it goes back to the adult value call. Is the infidility worth the relationship you want to have. is it worth excepting as part of the reality of what the relationship really is. Each person need sto dexice if it is for them. I wish you luck in making such a choice and living with it once made.

Again, I hope its a choice I never have to make ("he" I talk about is hypothetical one), but I know myself pretty well. Would I approve, no. Would I forgive, that depends on him making amends. Would I tolerate his philandering ways - yes.

What would be the deal breaker...is him lying to me about it (or anything else), me hearing it from someone else other than him, him not being honest. I can forgive (almost) anything, except lying. If he lied, I would leave him.

Would I divorce him? (Ok, this is going to get some people upset, so I cant stress enough, that I am talking only in reference to myself). If we only had a civil ceremony - then yes, no big deal.

But (as its likely it would have been the case)if we had had a religious ceremony...if you take vows in front of (whatever) God, I don't think you can divorce. So if you are doing it, you better be sure its something you can live with forever. Of course you can pretend it is no longer valid, but I don't think it works like that.

Thank you for your comment, I really enjoyed reading your sentiments.

D

hopperboo

09-24-2008, 11:52 PM

+1 on calling them like one sees them.

It's one thing to have compassion, for someone, and yes, I personally could have compassion for a cheater in some situations, however in others...one just has to call them as they come.

Some men are slime. Some women are slime. It's not being mean - it's just the hard truth.

Any man or woman who would abandon their spouse/partner and children for no reason other than selfishness is not a decent person.

Tolerance, acceptance and compassion only go so far before one's own morals and values start running down the tube too. There has to be a line drawn. imho.

AdrianaAurora

09-25-2008, 12:36 AM

Hmm, not sure I wont to get involved with this discussion, because I most certainly dont care what anyone thinks about my relationship with my husband, (though, they are free to judge all they like).

My husband and I are EXTREMELY close; our views on communication and honesty seem to be pretty close, damyanti - but life, and relationships, are not black and white.

We have agreed on not being monogamous, but we were, for the longest time.

The agreement however was just about sex, I never could have imagined falling in love with someone else or meeting someone who could even begin to measure up to my Husband.

Then, without going into details now (I already touched up on that in my other posts), we had some issues and were spending a lot of time apart, when I met someone else. And I started to fall for that someone.

From the point of where I am today, I find it hard to relate to the mind frame I was in at the time. I liked that other guy, very much. He was fulfilling the need, was in possession of traits my husband doesn't have - and us having problems, made it very easy for me to loose sight of some things.

What I did do differently than most, I went to my Husband, BEFORE I slept with the other guy. He wasn't happy, - saying He granted permission would not be quite right, but He did accept it.

I agonized over doing that to Him, all the time in the begging - but we were spending a lot of time apart, and I was spending a lot of time with the other guy, and its amazing how much easier it gets with time. Its almost as if you go numb to certain "values".

The affair lasted about 9 months, during that time Hubby had sex with other women. Usually when away in US on business. I never asked Him for the details, I don't want to know.

What got us through: He never dominated other women, and other than a rare play spanking I never indulged into bdsm, let alone submit to the other guy. Tristan and I still talked, we still remained partners, a team, in other (intellectual) matters. I was still His wife. And, as rare as that was, when we were together we still had sex, it kept us connected.

But as much as I fancied the other guy, and as high feelings floated in the beginning, as time went on, reality began to set in. We had no future. Cultural differences, family incompatibility, differing tempers - I cared for him, but it wasn't going to work in the long run. I am thankful I had the sense to keep that in sight.

When he started to talk about me "committing" to him, I knew I had to end it. While an odd fleeting thought crossed my mind, I NEVER seriously contemplated divorce. That simply wasn't a choice (my Husband doesn't believe in Church divorce either, its a Catholic thing, I guess, lol). For me, it was knowing, that despite of it all, He is my right life partner; and not being able to walk away from my stepson (who I raised as my own).

We moved past it. But while we were honest, and that meant a lot, and I argued your points in my defense at the time, and to other people and its how we were able to make peace with it, there is no guilt or resentment...

But let me confess something here - it WAS cheating. We stayed loyal, we stayed honest, we "preserved" - but it was still a BETRAYAL.

Its not an easy matter of right or wrong. I am not sorry for the time I spent with that man. I am sorry for causing hurt to Tristan. I am glad for knowing, that now we can survive anything, that we are forever and that he is forever my choice. The experience brought us so close, its hard to describe. I now know He will never leave me and in a way it helped me to trust Him completely and to submit fully, without reserve, without holding back. So yes, being honest does help in preserving trust - but it isn't a permission that its all right to do it.

For us, that is now in the past. We never said it specifically, but (while an odd sex fling might be tolerated, its unlikely either of us will indulge in it ever, and certainly not anytime soon) monogamy is now implied.

annie

09-25-2008, 04:28 AM

Glad to see that the "respect" which is the number 1 standard rule here is going so strongly in this thread...

AdrianaAurora

09-25-2008, 09:28 AM

I cant answer for others. I can tell you what happened with us.

What Tristan did, yes, that was just sex. I know who he did it with, and I like those women. He treated them well, but in the end He only has one wife and sub and they knew where they stood with Him. To be fair, He only did it, because I wasn't there.

With me, it wasn't about sex. Tristan and I argued a lot about where to live, we had differing points on where to go on with our lives, He placed His career first, though He promised to scale back. He is older than me, we had been through some tough shit, and when things calmed down, I was feeling stifled, insecure, my life wasn't what it was supposed to be...

So I met this man. Physically, unlike my Husband, my type. Incredibly witty, wonderful self deprecating sense of humor - wheres Tristan has none. He does the ton of charity work, not just money, but time, Tristan sends a check or two to an organization or two a year. All of that appealed to me very much. He was softer, more open, kinder, gentler, - and most importantly, with him I didn't have to deal with the problems I faced with Tristan, he was safe and interesting.

A lot of it also has to do with variety, doesn't mean you don't love or want to replace what you have. And it flattered me, to have such a man as conquest. So I fancied myself in love. But when the novelty wears off, you realize (at least I have) that there is only one person I can live with.

That there is only one man who can handle me, completely. Only one man to whom I belong to. Only one who owns me. Only one I love TRULY.

Yes, Tristan is quiet and has no sense of humor - but I LOVE that about Him, it complements my nature, it soothes me. No one is so attentive, so irreverent of me as Him. He is smart. He is strong. He may not show His emotions as openly as others, but I love being the only one to whom He confides. I LOVE my Husband. He is perfect for me. But we are all humans, we get caught up in situations - but we learn from them. Haven't you ever been depressed, in that dark place- where you know its wrong, but you want something so much you go crazy from desperation? Thats the best way I can put it.

As for serial philanderers who lie and live a double life, I have no idea.

Ragoczy

09-25-2008, 01:34 PM

But let me confess something here - it WAS cheating. We stayed loyal, we stayed honest, we "preserved" - but it was still a BETRAYAL.

Thank you for sharing such a difficult and personal situation.

I'm going to express my opinion on what you described for purposes of this thread and hope I say nothing to offend you, because that's truly not my intent.

You've characterized this as cheating and betrayal, and, as I've said before, whether something is or not is wholly between those involved, but my opinion on this specific situation is that it was not. The sequence of events, as I read them, seems to have been:

You were operating within an agreed upon set of parameters;
Something unexpected happened, which you had not actively and consciously sought out;
Rather than pursuing that behind your husband's back, you and he worked to come up with new parameters to deal with the different situation;
You moved forward within the agreed upon parameters;

I'm sure the reality wasn't as ... tidy as that, but I wouldn't react to it as infidelity. If my kitten came to me with a similar situation, I'd be angry and hurt, but more at the situation than at her. It would be difficult, but not in the way that actively pursuing and hiding it would be.

What you described sounds like how mature adults would handle a situation like that: "oh, shit, what do we do now"; rather than selfish children: "I will hide it and get what I want no matter who it might hurt".

Ragoczy

09-25-2008, 01:39 PM

Glad to see that the "respect" which is the number 1 standard rule here is going so strongly in this thread...

"Respect" isn't unconditional and there are some acts which strike a strong, negative chord with people.

If a child-molester or rapist came here and started describing his exploits, would you "respect" him or speak out against him? No, I am not implying a moral equivalency between these and infidelity, but they are all things that some people consider to be wrong. Good people, when faced with wrong, speak out against it.

annie

09-25-2008, 02:02 PM

Ragoczy

09-25-2008, 02:23 PM

Opinions can be stated without being nasty about it though... even strong ones.

Granted, in general, but this is a sensitive, personal topic and that tends to bring out the emotion. I'm sure there are some real-life experiences that contribute to the strong feelings; probably some who had a partner who was unfaithful and others who may, right now, be hiding their participation in this community from a spouse. Displaced anger or defensiveness, either one gets people emotional.

On the other hand, I like a heated debate with high emotions, so I didn't see much that would keep me from taking anyone in the thread out for a beer after the discussion.

cadence

09-25-2008, 03:15 PM

Granted, in general, but this is a sensitive, personal topic and that tends to bring out the emotion. I'm sure there are some real-life experiences that contribute to the strong feelings; probably some who had a partner who was unfaithful and others who may, right now, be hiding their participation in this community from a spouse. Displaced anger or defensiveness, either one gets people emotional.

On the other hand, I like a heated debate with high emotions, so I didn't see much that would keep me from taking anyone in the thread out for a beer after the discussion.

Of course it is a sensitive subject, but someone brought it upon themselves to bring up the subject of cheating on a partner, and took it upon themselves to denounce and degrade anyone who would dare even think about it. I haven't read through all of the posts but I haven't seen any other posts come close to being disrespectful to anyone else.

I don't mind reading or participating in heated subjects, I rarely post to them, as I am ill equiped in the fine art of informal logic.

I am fine with others having an opinion, everyone is entitled to thiers, I am fine with people being judgemental, they are also entitled to have thier say.
However I believe that there is a distinct difference in judging others and doing it in a way that does not promote sweeping generalizations.
There is a difference when someone measures thier words carefully and doesn't speak them in vain. Personal preference and tastes, should be kept quiet.
Then there is a person who believes that they have full reign to "fully speak thier mind" regardless as to how they do it.
It's childish and rude.
That may make me a hypocrite and judgemental as well, but I don't put up with name calling and abuse towards others.
Being judgemental in this fashion typically calls out to individuals or groups and labels them.
A person can have a strong opinion, but they should use tact and discrection while doing it.

denuseri

09-25-2008, 04:35 PM

Adriana i commend you on your bravery and honesty in the very personal post you made about your situation sweetie.

<<beams warm supportive feelings your way

I hope and pray that all will be well for you and yours in a manner that "works" for all.

hugs and kissess
denuseri

Hime

09-25-2008, 05:14 PM

It's really hard for me to understand feeling this way. Every partner I've had has been different. I guess being bi and a switch, I've had more variety in sexual partners than most, but even so, no two people feel, taste or move the same way. Everyone has their own surprising qualities and habits. You say "a penis is a penis," I say "how long? How wide? how hard does it get? What color? Circumsized or uncircumsized? Any piercings? What positions does he like? What kind of noises would he make?" And yeah, when I see an attractive man I can't help wondering about those things, and I would wonder even if I were in a monogamous relationship. I think that's natural for an awful lot of people, even if it isn't for you.

Personally, I'm poly and very happy that way. But even if I were in a monogamous relationship, it would be hard for me to see cheating the way many people seem to see it, as the worst thing you can to do someone. It just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me compared to other things, like "financial cheating" -- i.e., lying about where you're spending money, having a separate bank account separate from your spouse, etc. Or the kind of everyday verbal abuse that I hear from a lot of couples who've been together for a while, like "you're so stupid" or "shut up, you bitch" or whatever. Those are things I would leave someone for. Sexual cheating wouldn't bother me as much, since, as long as everyone is safe and avoids diseases, it wouldn't really hurt me.

My sister-in-law is very Christian, and is always after my husband and me to "forgive" his father, who has always been abusive and called my husband a liar in a court of law when he was a child. And yet, when one of the sister-in-law's friends' wives cheated on him (the friend and his wife have two kids, btw), she told him not to forgive her, and to leave her right away. I still have no idea what kind of mindset makes a cheating wife less forgivable than an abusive father. It's honestly beyond my comprehension.

Ragoczy

09-25-2008, 06:08 PM

Okay ... gotta say, the line was a couple steps back that way.

IAmCanadian

09-25-2008, 06:10 PM

Somebody call the exorcist.

- FS

annie

09-25-2008, 06:26 PM

Once again you have made yourself and your position extremely clear...

Torq

09-25-2008, 08:11 PM

OK Folks,, as you may see a post or two is missing,, and a few have been edited.

PLEASE keep in mind RESPECT is this sites #1 Rule..

Please stay on topic an not "Name-Calling"

Thanks allll

Be Well
T

leah06

09-25-2008, 09:58 PM

"Respect" isn't unconditional and there are some acts which strike a strong, negative chord with people.

If a child-molester or rapist came here and started describing his exploits, would you "respect" him or speak out against him? No, I am not implying a moral equivalency between these and infidelity, but they are all things that some people consider to be wrong. Good people, when faced with wrong, speak out against it.

Some people consider lots of things to be wrong, many of which people on this site participate in. I don't think it's enough that someone "considers" something to be wrong for them to speak in such a hurtful, sweeping manner. Of course we would all condemn a pedophile, but there's a lot of slippery slope between here and there and I don't think infidelity and pedophilia are equivalent. I think people should be very sure that whatever activity they are planning to condemn falls into the pedophile category before they use the most inflamatory and intemperate language they can muster.

Respect is a good place to start, and maybe people should ask themselves whether it's really necessary to depart from that in order to make a point.

Demon Dom

09-26-2008, 01:09 AM

Compliance which has been enforced by using force is short lived, if you are set on building a strong, longer lasting relationship based on dominance and submission you have to not only accept the other person, but be as reverent of their flaws as you are of their good points.

To achieve this goal I think of my dominance as a tool. This lifestyle is not limited to the sexual practices and ideas often talked about in articles, this lifestyle is very much about making a choice to look at your life and how you approach it in a completely different way. If we can reduce the amount of time waisted on resentment points in a relationship which do not really advance us, then we can take that time and invest it into making ourselves better. Not only for our own good, but to prosper for and with your partner.

Sex and sexual practices are an essential part of our lives, they rule us more than we would like to think. If we manage to tame that beast, by admitting ourselves into a world of pleasure whenever we feel like it, without guilt or shame, then we are in a position to better share ourselves and create a longer lasting, much tighter bond with our partner.

That gives me a very secure feeling and I can focus my attention on the more important things. How to progress my career, create a happy and safe environment for my pet, how to educate myself so that I can better understand her and how to ensure that she is happy with me by serving my needs and receiving the feedback she deserves. ‘Persevere,’ it’s my stance on how I deal with things in life. Every time I get an injury or suffer from a personal setback that’s exactly what I do, I persevere. It’s either that or ‘Rise Above,’ as opposed to persevere through it.

No one understands until they do it. There's no explaining it. There are too many invariables in life you can't control that just happen. She is my wife. A few hours, that either of us, spent with someone else are not enough for me to give that up. We're two polar opposites. But for some reason, it just works.

I'm past remorse. I'd like to think everybody involved in the situation is past it too. Our lives are busy and hectic, right now, but in a good way. ... This is where I always wanted to get to. It feels really, really good. It feels satisfying. We needed that stuff to happen in order to get this attitude. Didn't know it, wouldn't plan on going through all that again, but I think we made lemonade out of lemons. I know that when I go to bed at night, I feel good about who I am. I'm not saying I'm perfect, never have. And I will continue to make mistakes for the rest of my life - that's what human beings do. That's not to brush off what happened. Was it a mistake? It's not a mistake that I'm sitting beside her now, though. Being together, we are a packaged deal. I wouldn't have gotten to where I am without her.

Demon Dom

09-26-2008, 01:11 AM

But let me confess something here - it WAS cheating. We stayed loyal, we stayed honest, we "preserved" - but it was still a BETRAYAL.

Je t'aime.

Rachie

09-26-2008, 01:29 AM

But recently, while still holding that belief, I began to question - is it really too much to ask of men to be sexually, as well as emotionally, faithful?

No it's not to much to ask, if it's what they agreed to before the relationship began.

Why would you marry someone with whom you are not honest, someone to whom you cant trust?

Maybe the person didn't realize they were being dishonest until after they were married, and maybe they were just scared of the truth and didn't want to see it themselves.

How do you deal with infidelity (in more conventional relationships),...especially when there is an added element of bdsm involved?

I don't, there's no such thing as infidelity in my relationships as I don't demand my partner live by my rules.

What do you consider infidelity in bdsm? Is there such a thing?

Depends on the relationship, if the relationship is structured so that there is one dom and one sub and it's agreed upon that there will be no additions, then adding someone would be infidelity.

Or does the dominant get to do what they want? What about sub?

Again it depends on the relationship, however a dom does not get to cheat simply because he's a dom.

What about domming and subbing others, is that considered infidelity?

That depends on the structure of the relationship, I've been in relationships where it was, and others where it wasn't.

What is considered infidelity in polyamorous relationships?

I don't do poly relationships, so I'm not sure.

When it comes right down to it, every relationship is different because every person is different, what works for me isn't going to work for anyone else, because their brain is not a carbon copy of mine.

I'm a pretty open person, I don't expect my partner to be with only me, and I don't care one way or the other about it. When it comes right down to it, it's a security issue for me. I'm secure being me in our relationship. If my owner wants to go screw/beat/order around/ or tie up another piece of meat for the night because it's amusing, that's cool. My only stipulation is that it's done safely and that I know about it, so I'm not blind sided by "by the way your owner is a great lay" later and have to look stupid.

Ragoczy

09-26-2008, 04:36 AM

Some people consider lots of things to be wrong, many of which people on this site participate in. I don't think it's enough that someone "considers" something to be wrong for them to speak in such a hurtful, sweeping manner. Of course we would all condemn a pedophile, but there's a lot of slippery slope between here and there and I don't think infidelity and pedophilia are equivalent. I think people should be very sure that whatever activity they are planning to condemn falls into the pedophile category before they use the most inflamatory and intemperate language they can muster.

Respect is a good place to start, and maybe people should ask themselves whether it's really necessary to depart from that in order to make a point.

So who is the arbiter of what someone's allowed to think is wrong and speak out against strongly? You?

Some people do form a moral equivilency between things you may not. Do you get to stop them from saying those things are wrong? No, you get to speak out against them if you feel strongly enough.

Someone who feels homosexuality is wrong will speak out strongly against it. Many do so in a way that doesn't "respect" those they're speaking out against. That's their right and, frankly, duty to vigorously oppose what they feel is so wrong.

Just as it's my right and duty to vigorously oppose their ignorant, bigoted, hateful rhetoric. I might choose to use calm, reasoned arguments with them in the hopes of convincing them, but, at some point, when I see they're set in their bigotry, it's my right and duty to call them assholes.

And I think this has veered quite off the topic of infidelity, so I'll probably try very hard to leave it at that. Really, I will. Try. Yeah.