What the hell is wrong with people?

[Ragoczy]

So in reading two separate stories today, I find myself wondering what the hell is wrong with people -- and if maybe our society's "every human is valuable" philosophy might be self-destructive and we'd be better off dumping some of these idiots on the trash heap.

First, there's an argument in Los Angeles about who's first in line and McDonald's and some guy starts beating up on a 16-year old girl: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431163,00.html

Second, there's a kid on a building ledge in Derby, England and the crowd yells at him to jump, then rushes forward to take pictures with their cell phones when he does: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431195,00.html

[Thorne]

So in reading two separate stories today, I find myself wondering what the hell is wrong with people -- and if maybe our society's "every human is valuable" philosophy might be self-destructive and we'd be better off dumping some of these idiots on the trash heap.
I've never been a believer in "every human is valuable." There are just some people who don't deserve the air they breathe.


First, there's an argument in Los Angeles about who's first in line and McDonald's and some guy starts beating up on a 16-year old girl: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431163,00.html
And this guy's one of them. Isn't that a wonderful lesson to teach your kids?


Second, there's a kid on a building ledge in Derby, England and the crowd yells at him to jump, then rushes forward to take pictures with their cell phones when he does: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,431195,00.html
I wonder if there's any way the cops could find those people and charge them with abetting a criminal act. Suicide is against the law, you know. So wouldn't inciting someone to commit suicide be on a par with second degree murder?

[MMI]

I'm disgusted.

I can only speak for UK, and I'm no longer a teenager, but these kids in Derby, like so many of thier peers, have lost all moral grounding and now barely know right from wrong - or, rather, don't bother to distinguish. Many come from an underclass who feel alienated from the rest of the country. Poor males now have fewer jobs, no prospects, less ideals and no hopes.

Why should they care, they ask, what normal standards of behaviour are? Normal standards, in their experience, are class oppression, poverty, police persecution and hypocrisy. So they react by giving mainstream society the finger, ignoring its laws and abandoning any semblance of morality.

Fathers are all absent. There are few males to look up to - is only the local gang leaders. And you must belong to a gang if you want to survive. Possession of weapons is routine: knives certainly, guns increasingly. And their only amusement now is to cause outrage wherever they can, by fighting, binge-drinking, doing drugs, and, of course, creating a scene when one of their number finally loses it. The others can't be seen to be concerned, so they jeer and taunt. "How far can you bounce?" is sickenly witty.

I don't think they wanted him to jump, and I expect they were as surprised and shocked as anyone when he did. They are still human, have loves and frindships. But they display it differently. "They were there" and they had to take those photographs to substantiate their new bragging rights.

I despair.

[MMI]

Suicide is no longer against the law. Too many people who didn't commit suicide were hanged for it!

Besides, it's probably an infringement of people's Human Rights to be prevented from killing themselves.

Seriously though, I do believe everyone is valuable and deserves all the air he/she can breathe and more. Although some people are best removed from society for the general good of the others.

As for the Derby incident, the UK has more CCTV cameras than any other advanced country. I'm sure that if the police don't already know who those kids are, they could identify them from the tapes. But what good would that do? All they did was jeer. They didn't push they guy. Telling someone to kill himself is not the same thing as helping someone to kill himself (which is definitely against the law). I don't think you'd get the Crown Prosecution Service to even think about trying to get a conviction for this.

[TheDeSade]

my observation ... stupidity is or should be ultimately fatal.

Honestly, there is a school of thought that the fall of every great civilization has been precursed by a general breakdown in the basic underpinnings of social order, ie, manners, morals, civilized behavior, etc. There are some whole believe we have entered that very state of our civilization. Interesting concept.

[Dick the Slaver]

You never know what you will find in a fast food restaurant. Read http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/10/01/bc-081001-black-bear-fast-food-kitimat.html click on the two videos.

[Thorne]

I'm disgusted...I despair.

I am with you on this.

And it's not just in the UK. Things here in the US aren't much better. Gangs are on the rise, and gang violence. Drugs are destroying a whole generation. Young people are encouraged to lie, steal, cheat, shoot up, attack the cops, you name it, by the hip-hop/rap culture.

But you know what? Our parents said basically the same things about the perversion of rock & roll. Elvis' lascivious hip swinging was the despair of our mothers, and destined to plunge our culture into absolute chaos.

And THEIR parents said basically the same things about the Jazz age.

So, it's all just history repeating itself, for the most part. But for some reason, and perhaps it's because of higher populations and the greater speed of information exchange, things seem a lot worse now than they were even then.

As for suicide being illegal, it seems that even here in the US they no longer consider attempted suicide to be a felony, although I would guess they could find some kinds of minor charges to bring against someone: obstructing traffic, creating a nuisance, whatever. And I find it hard to believe that inciting someone to commit suicide isn't a crime of some kind. Here in the US, at least, providing someone with the means to commit suicide is a crime. Shouldn't incitement be one also?

[MMI]

I don't think encouraging a person to do something that isn't a crime should be made a criminal act. It seems illogical.

And providing a person with the means to commit suicide can't really be made a crime either. If I give you a gun, I don't mean you to blow your brains out with it, and it isn't necessarily foreseeable that you would do that. Why should I be punished if you unexpectedly do turn it on yourself?

But if I give you the gun knowing or believing you will kill yourself with it, then I am assisting you, and that is culpable.

(Incidentally, there was an item on Radio 4 today about a woman with MS. She plans to go to Switzerland eventually, where assisted suicide is legal, and end her life there. She hopes her husband will be able to go with her, but she has asked the UK courts to clarify whether he will face imprisonment on his return: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7644094.stm. However, this is deviating from the main topic under discussion.)

[Thorne]

But if I give you the gun knowing or believing you will kill yourself with it, then I am assisting you, and that is culpable.

But can anyone possibly know that you knew? Sure, you can suspect. You can even strongly believe. But until I actually blow my brains out, you can't possibly know.

But I was thinking more along the lines of Kevorkian, with his suicide machines. (Incidentally, I believe in assisted suicide: if someone wants to off themselves, who are we to say they shouldn't?) Technically, these machines serve only one purpose: to allow the user to commit suicide, presumably painlessly. But providing the equipment isn't the same as injecting the drugs, or pulling the plug, or whatever else you might do. Sure, there's a 99.9% probability that the person is going to kill himself, but there's also a 0.1% possibility that he won't.

But if I supply you with the means, and then goad you into actually using them, that's another story altogether. Isn't it?

[lucy]

(Incidentally, there was an item on Radio 4 today about a woman with MS. She plans to go to Switzerland eventually, where assisted suicide is legal, and end her life there.
Indeed it is legal here to help a person end her/his life. The organisations providing this "service" are not above suspicion of getting a financial profit out of it so currently at least one of them is under investigation. Furthermore, they have difficulties finding a decent place for their "business", once an assisted suicide was carried out in a car on a parking lot.
Not exactly my idea of a decent location to end a life.

As for todays youth being worse than those before: A recent study in Switzerland showed that this isn't exactly the case. The rate of youngsters dropping out of school, having a criminal record or generally "failing" in life hasn't grown over the years.
But those few (after all, it IS still a small minority) who do have a criminal record have committed worse crimes than those who had such a record a couple of years back.
And they probably get much more attention in todays media.

[Thorne]

As for todays youth being worse than those before: A recent study in Switzerland showed that this isn't exactly the case. The rate of youngsters dropping out of school, having a criminal record or generally "failing" in life hasn't grown over the years.
But those few (after all, it IS still a small minority) who do have a criminal record have committed worse crimes than those who had such a record a couple of years back.
Yeah, that was basically my point. It always seems worse to the parents/adults than it was when they were kids. I once read an article written by some Roman father, dating sometime BC, that had the same dismal outlook on the youth of his time as we do now.


And they probably get much more attention in todays media.
And this is the biggest problem, but also the biggest blessing, of our times. So much of what we learn about is not necessarily new or even more prevalent than in the past. It's just that there is so much coverage of it, live and up to the minute. It's almost overwhelming!

[MMI]

'Twas ever thus?

Maybe.

I'm sure all societies have an underclass, and always have had. Outcasts, outlaws. Outsiders.

People who for one reason - poverty - or another cannot "make it" and who are deprived of even basic services because of this. No wonder they are hostile. No wonder they occasionally rebel.

But to mainstream society, each new outrage is a fresh affront to normal standards and is hard to tolerate.

[lucy]

'Twas ever thus?
People who for one reason - poverty - or another cannot "make it" and who are deprived of even basic services because of this. No wonder they are hostile. No wonder they occasionally rebel.

Some of the youngsters doing the worst sh** actually come from some pretty well off families. They are not deprived of anything, at least nothing money can buy.

[Thorne]

Some of the youngsters doing the worst sh** actually come from some pretty well off families. They are not deprived of anything, at least nothing money can buy.

And in this, at least, the world has not changed much. There has always been a relative minority of wealthy kids who believed they deserved the world handed to them on a silver platter, and that any trouble they had could be fixed with money.

Being the vicious, vindictive bastard I am, I've always found it most amusing when those types finally get what's coming to them, especially when it involves a nice long stretch in a prison filled with the very kinds of people they stepped on all their lives. Sorry, but that's the way I am.

[lucy]

Being the vicious, vindictive bastard I am, I've always found it most amusing when those types finally get what's coming to them, especially when it involves a nice long stretch in a prison filled with the very kinds of people they stepped on all their lives. Sorry, but that's the way I am.
No need to be sorry ;)
But i do think they get away with it or never get caught way too often.

[MMI]

Some of the youngsters doing the worst sh** ... are not deprived of anything ...

True. That's an evil I didn't rail against. The abuse of power and hedonistic self-indulgence is appalling.

But those people wouldn't sully themselves by being caught up in the kind of scene that took place in Derby. These people haven't been spurned by society. Rather they are frequently idolised. Look at Amy Whitehoouse, Britanny Spiers, Paris Hilton. Prince Harry (a man who cannot be short of a bob or two, but a tenderfoot as a pilot) takes a £35m helicopter belonging to the RAF on a jaunt to some other Hooray-Henry's stag party. Couldn't he have borrowed Daddy's Aston Martin? Think of the CO2 emissions saved!

Those princesses of privilege fornicate, vomit, expose themselves for fame and fortune, and are feted for it, while the real prince behaves with such utter arrogance, it's exasperating!

I could go on ...

But society's outcasts are never celebrated, they are looked down on by everyone who is not like them and are treated with universal contempt.

There but for Fortune ...