Is Submission a gift

[RickBulow74]

I had heard from some people that submission is a gift, and from others that it is not. In fact, those who say it is not say that it is taken from the sub. My feeling is that it is a gift, but that it is the choice of the Dom or Domme to decide what is to be done with the submission, namely use it to better the sub or to do harm.


Any comments or thoughts on this? Please vote in the poll and comment as to why you voted on it with an explanation.

[AdrianaAurora]

I never liked that statement, to me it sounds terribly conceited. What about His dominance, is that His gift to me? Every relationship has elements of D/s struggle, we have simply chosen to explore ours on an another level. Does that make our relationship better/superior to those of our vanilla friends? Who is to be the judge of that?

just my opinion

[twilight(Whippett)]

I think love, trust, and respect are all gifts, whether they be given in a D/s relationship or a vanilla one- submission involves all those things. It should be given freely or there is a risk of D/s becoming abuse.

Well wielded Dominance is a gift to the submissive because it gives them what they need as much as being a good submissive is a gift to a Dom as it also gives them what they need.

[cadence]

I think that somewhere someone down the line used the term "submission as a gift" as a way to romanticize D/s.

I never really liked the term, because it made me think of sitting around with my neatly packaged submission, waiting to give it to a Dominant who showed some interest.
I don't think it is given away, it is shared with someone who also gives thier Dominance as well.
There isn't really any talk of Dominants giving away thier gift of dominance and for me it's soley the exchange of power within the relationship.
I submit to someone else who enjoys and appreciates what I have to offer, in turn they offer me thier Dominance.

I don't give and offer up my submission to be used as some precious, altruistic thing. I want to be submissive, I want to serve and be owned; another who finds that side of me attractive does not take it, but shares and nurtures that part of me.
I own my submission and it's a gift I give to myself really.

[Diablo]

It is a gift, unless you are actually forcing someone that would not want to be your submissive to be submissive to you.

But it isn't something you just give and then are stuck with it. It is shared with the Dominant. It may be the romantic twist on the subject but to me does a very good job of simply stating the power exchange.

[blythe spirit]

Seeing as I'm not in a box and have no bows or a gift card attached, I'll have to think about that one. lol

hmmmm? Is a very romantic thought, though. *pictures sitting under the tree on Christmas morn waiting to be unwrapped and played with*

[thegirlwonder]

lol, blythe =)

As for me, i think the statement that submission is a gift is a romanticized way of stating that the act of submission lies solely in the subs hands -- yes, a Dom/me may "take" it, but consensually speaking it is the sub's to give.

personally, i feel more like a Dom/me should earn the right to top me, and strictly speaking one doesn't "earn" gifts. Not trying to be conceited, but i just feel like it's such a big part of who i am that i would want to make sure that Who i'm giving it to is trustworthy and capable. And that goes both ways -- i'm well aware that i damn sure have to earn my place as a sub. *grin* Of course, that's half the fun.

[sadiej]

I agree. It is a gift. But not just one-way. I see my relationship with a Master as an exchange. I relinquish my control to him.. submit. He accepts that and offers his control of me. We exchange.

I relinquish control...he accepts it. I give him my trust and respect... he respects and trusts me. He is pleased with my submission... I am pleased with his control. Each one in the relationship must offer equally, an exchange.

My reponsibility in this is to obey. To continually grow in my desire to give him more and more control over me. His responsibility is to keep that control and hold it responsibly.

It is not just my Master "doing" things to me, or "taking" things from me. He cannot lead where I will not follow. It's like a complicated and beautiful dance. Both partners must perform their part to make it happen. But Master leads.

[DowntownAmber]

Perhaps the connotation of the word "gift" makes the exchange seem overly romanticized or conceited from the submissive end, but it's still one of the better ways I've heard to describe it.

I certainly don't think that saying this makes the sub the only one doing the giving. A few have asked if Dominance is also a gift and I think that in indeed it is. As a side note, I always affectionately refer to any little stripes and welts and Master's little presents to me. *weg*

Cadence make a good point too, that submission is also a gift to one's self. I agree, but think regardless it can still be given to another.

Because I am right in middle of having fantastic craving for cake right now, let me overly simplify and break it down like this... I love to bake, I really enjoy chocolate cake. In my kitchen, I have all the ingredients to make a really spectacular one. So I set about doing that. There's this guy. I know he likes chocolate cake, and I really like him and think that he has good enough taste in cake that he would appreciate the one I am baking. So, with him in mind I frost it and box it up and decide to offer it to him. It makes me feel good to do so. He accepts the cake, and offers me in to sit down, have a slice with him and maybe a frosty glass of cold milk. I gave the cake away, but am enjoying it far more now that we're there sharing it and enjoying it together.

Now, I really am going to go make cake... ;)

[Veridical]

The term 'Submission is a gift' is mostly derived from individuals attempting to explain the lifestyle to people who are curious of it, or else, people who are against it and trying to understand why someone would do such things.

Submission is a consensual act in where the sub/slave relinquishes all rights to say what goes and what doesn't to the Dom/me they are submitting to, thus, giving them power and authority over what is done. In many ways it could be construed as a gift. While minute, there is an act of turning over power before play begins, admitting that it's something you both mutually want, and it's the sub/slave's way of showing how much they trust their Master/Mistress. In that light, Dominance is a gift given in turn, a reaction if you will, to the sub/slave's gift of submission.

In this light, submission and Dominance are both gifts, just not something you're able to tangibly touch, something not material. And, in my opinion, those kind of gifts are the ones that count more than anything anyone can buy with money.

[SUBtly_shy]

hmm I love the way people think in here :) everyone has a different point of view. For me the words "submission is a gift" fit rather well. In my way of thinking, I own myself. I belong to me, I am my own property. By gifting my submission to my master I am for all intents and purposes giving myself to my master. OK so there aren't any pretty bows or warping paper but if I give all of myself to my master. All of my good and bad points and the silly little thoughts that run though my head not to mention my body; with out reservation isn't that a gift? If I don't "own" myself anymore I belong to him and he now owns me isn't that the most precious gift I can give some one? Anyway just my thoughts on it :)

[Pearlgem]

Submissives must sometimes, I reckon, find themselves in situations where submitting is difficult - it may be painful, unsettling, challenging for many reasons - hell, they just might not be in the proper mood. When I am faced with a challenge to my submission (which I often am) that's when I recognise it as the gift it is. If I am disengaged for any reason - self centred, resentful - I find it a barrier to the sort of submission that both
my Master and I need and desire. These attitudes need to be sorted out by lots of talking and negotiation, sometimes by careful punishment.
To my mind, there is a difference between obedience and submission. I strive to be obedient as a good sub, but to me, obedience is the outward show of submission. What my Master and I really strive for is that inner willingness, that body, mind and soul hand over of myself to him, to his will and desires. He knows that sometimes I am being obedient 'only' (and that's good) as I struggle to accept in my mind and heart what is being asked of me, but he cannot make my submission happen; only I can choose to give it. I love and admire my Master so much for understanding this and being the man to unlock this part of me.
When all of me is in total accord with his desires, when I have let my foolish resentments drop, my vanilla uncertainties float away, when I put myself in his hands completely, trust him implicitly - and he has proved himself time and again worthy of such commitment - then there is nothing sweeter for both of us than for me to give myself over to him in total surrender. This takes strength, it is never passive. I willingly, from the bottom of my heart, give him that which he desires above all, and I love him because only he can unwrap my dark gift.

[RickBulow74]

I thank everyone for their comments so far. This is turning out to be a very intriguing discussion from all sides. Basically, and this si what I am getting out of this, is that there is no right or wrong answer to it but rather up to the individual person or relationship.

[icey]

I think that somewhere someone down the line used the term "submission as a gift" as a way to romanticize D/s.

.
that says it all for me! like many other of the romanticisms involved in bdsm.
it just sounds concieted and a bit sloppy to me and sometimes it comes across almost as though people are trying to justify submission in some way, im not saying they are but it can at times appear that way.
ive always wondered this..if submissions considered a gift then whats Dominance?

[Pearlgem]

Without dominance, submission is meaningless, and vv. Why else are we all looking for someone, if it was enough to 'be' dominant or submissive by yourself? A Dominant allows the submissive to be submissive, to give her gift of submission to him. He facilitates it, allows it, accepts it.
But I don't think it's too fanciful to say the Dominant also gifts his dominance to the sub. If there was anything half hearted about it on either side, the whole transaction would collapse.
I always find it extraordinary - despite the seeming 'rules', strictures and disciplines of BDSM, we are actually freely giving each other a willing gift.

[RickBulow74]

that says it all for me! like many other of the romanticisms involved in bdsm.
it just sounds concieted and a bit sloppy to me and sometimes it comes across almost as though people are trying to justify submission in some way, im not saying they are but it can at times appear that way.
ive always wondered this..if submissions considered a gift then whats Dominance?


This is a good question indeed. Many consider it to be something from within and not a gift. However, it begs the question: Can Dominance be considered a gift as well? Possible poll question in the futuew.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Submission is a gift, but I dislike the phrase immensely because it sounds just as conceited as dominants who require potential submissives to "earn" their attention. Excuse me? The only thing that has to be earned is trust and respect, and that goes for both sides. Every time I see a profile with either of these overtones, I just want to say, "Get over yourself already! You're not as special as you think you are!" *lol* It reminds me of that Beyonce song....don't you ever for a second get to thinking you're irreplaceable.

Most dictionaries define a gift as something given without payment in return. Submission does not quality as a gift according to the most popular definition because it's given in return for and expectation of dominance. There are definitely conditions attached to this "gift." It can and is taken away when these conditions are not met. The only other meaning of gift that can be used is "a thing given," which does not accurately represent the intricacies of a power exchange dynamic.

What I give to my dominant is not any more precious than what he gives to me, and considering the fact that there are fewer dominants than submissives, what he gives to me is probably in all actuality a rarer commodity than what I have to offer.

[icey]

This is a good question indeed. Many consider it to be something from within and not a gift. However, it begs the question: Can Dominance be considered a gift as well? Possible poll question in the futuew.
i look forward to the poll :)

[Ozme52]

Submission and Dominance are states of mind. You cannot give me your state of mind.

Submissives give consent and reliquish control.

Maybe it's a bad analogy... You can give me a camera, but the "photography" is within me.

[Pearlgem]

Submission and Dominance are states of mind. You cannot give me your state of mind.

Submissives give consent and reliquish control.


I think you can 'gift' your state of mind. That very relinquishing, to my mind, is the gift. I suppose I can only talk personally but I have experienced it myself. I am struggling, not there yet, vanilla doubts bubbling away and my Master is orchestrating me patiently. There is nothing he can do to make me submit; I have to decide to relinquish myself to him. I want to, but I have to decide to. To give up everything - doubts, fears, unworthiness - just for the sake of him. If I can, and it takes strength, it feels to me like I'm giving him the sweetest thing he could desire. I give it to him willingly. He has allowed me to give it. It's more than just power exchange, it's the free giving of your most precious and vulnerable state to another who cherishes it.

[jezabel]

my submission is MY gift to my Master whilst His dominance is His gift to me.

[Laila]

I voted yes even though I do think others who said no have a point as well.

But for me, my submission is not general. Sure it comes from within but I so don't just submit to someone just because they are a dominant.
A gift brings joy and I know how much joy I bring to my Master as he brings to me. A gift is something that is as much joy to give as it is to receive. A gift comes with a certain responsibility to be repaid... to be given a gift in return.
And a gift comes with a responsibility to cherish the gift.

I think all that relates very well to how I feel about my submission.

I do think though, that dominance - the kind of dominance I respect and respond to is as well - and it is the most cherished gift I ever received.

[walkingdude225]

unless you grab a preson or knock them out its a gift to to dom or domme.....come on people. I know its sounds lame and unsexy in bed but...any sub dose give up power to the one or ones in control....dose it sound lame yes; is it ture....unless your grabing people like someone form the iorn age or a horror movie sadley....yes

[cookiecat]

i vote no.

why is submission a gift? i think that's just a nifty way for me to let you know how precious i am. :rolleyes:

what does a wife give to her husband? a significant other give to his/her partner? are these things gifts?

my relationship with my Daddy is consentual. i give him my love, respect, trust, obedience and yes, my submission. i don't see these as gifts. they're simply pieces of a committed relationship.

i do like how i look all tied up though... :cool:

[leah06]

I understand why people shy away from calling this a gift, but I'm not totally comfortable with thinking of a power exchange as a totally negotiated bargain either. I think that in any relationship people have to make a choice, conscious or not, to trust the other person and to be vulnerable, and to take responsibility for accepting the other person's trust and vulnerability also. Otherwise we would all be walking around in a world of transactions and negotiations. This might be magnified in a D/s setting, but it's really the same in any relationship. Because the D/s interaction amplifies the trust and vulnerability on one side, and the acceptance of responsibility on the other, it is easy to see to transfer as a one-sided gift, from the submissive to the dominant. So submission is a gift.

But I wonder. People have spoken of the gift the dominant brings to the interaction, and of course that's there too - accepting responsibility, being worthy of the trust placed in him or her - but I wonder if the dominant is also offering trust and vulnerability as well. I would think so.

[RickBulow74]

my submission is MY gift to my Master whilst His dominance is His gift to me.


now this is intriguing and one thing that I would like to examine further. How can Dominance be a gift?


*thinking a definate poll question is in order on if DOminance is a gift*

[IAmCanadian]

now this is intriguing and one thing that I would like to examine further. How can Dominance be a gift?


*thinking a definate poll question is in order on if DOminance is a gift*

Dominance is a gift in that it represents the maintenence of another life. It's like pet ownership except to the nth power...it becomes the dominant's responsibility to put a sub
though her paces, to fulfill her needs, to tailor the lifestyle to her moods and desires, to strike appropriate compromises. I see my dominance as the gift of all of my efforts, all
of my physical and emotional resources, my diligence, my loyalty, my tenacity, and my commitment to striving forever to provide the life my slave desires.

- FS

[fellintobed]

When I submit it is a direct acknowledgement of my Self, my master's Self, our mutual desire to have me obey his bidding, my ability and knowledge of how to act in a way that pleases him. More than that, it is not a one-time thing. Submission is a process, a time line. When I submit I am creating the opportunity to follow a trail of crumbs to somewhere I may never have been, a trail created by my master that I willingly follow. That trail is his gift to me. That I follow it is my gift to him. Submission could not exist without domination. They are both gifts.

[QuietMaster]

Submission is a gift and there is indeed a process to achieve that gift.

It is a gift that is consciously surrendered by the submissive, who has realized her deep inner true self, when mentored/nurtured by a skillful Master.

The fact that on is a Dominant and the other is a submissive does not necessarily equate to taking something for granted.

[QuietMaster]

But I wonder. People have spoken of the gift the dominant brings to the interaction, and of course that's there too - accepting responsibility, being worthy of the trust placed in him or her - but I wonder if the dominant is also offering trust and vulnerability as well. I would think so.


There indeed is an exchange of a gift. The Dominant indeed has accepted the submissive's gift of surrendering herself, first to herself, then freely to the Dominant.

With that exchange of gift, the Dominant has indicated his responsibilities and stewardship tho marshall the submissive's qualities for mutual satisfaction.

Each partner is vulnarable in the relationship.

[denuseri]

Of course it is a gift

the gift of ultimate trust

Trust never comes without uncertiantly, its what in a way Kierkagarurd calls "the leap of faith".

"Love too has it's pitfalls, and what is love if not the ultimate form of trust.

Hence the courage to embrace one's nature is not easy to come by.

The truest test of a relationship comes with time and actions, for they speak far louder than mere words.

It is my belief that giving all of oneself to a relationship can only be achieved in utter submission to one's partner in the way nature intended. My interpetation of nature's intentions is obvious as I am in every way the slave of my owner.

If he is strong he will not let me falter, he will provide the dominance nessesary to compliment my need for submission.

I must trust that if I give to him my all and submit to his desires that he will recognize the full value of my trust and take upon himself the ultimate privelage of responsibility and return the gift in kind.

I hope and pray everyone's journey will bear real fruit someday.

May these words help you in your own quests."

Hugs and Kissess
denuseri

[Skyybird]

hmmmm? Is a very romantic thought, though. *pictures sitting under the tree on Christmas morn waiting to be unwrapped and played with*


Hmmmmm what fun would that be? :d:d

[cookiecat]

i am definitely in the minority.

i get the reciprocal trust, the nurturing aspects. and i understand the idea of completion. that my submissive self is the missing piece of his dominant self.

but it's all so hallmark greeting card sounding. like i have this thing - my submission - all wrapped up so pretty that i hand to him.

it's a work in process. it's fluid. sometimes i fail him and sometimes his actions aren't what i expect. but we work together to come out stronger.

i don't see my submission as a gift. maybe i'm getting hung up on semantics. i see my submission as a part of me. and i give him my whole self.

[RickBulow74]

All good comments indeed, and I enjoy the thought out discussion. Here is the post that started it on the other board (name withheld)



So often we hear the phrase "submission is not taken, it is a special gift". Is it really?

I say it's not simply a gift. I say submission is something we have or are. I think all of us have some kind of submission to us. Perhaps not very strong always, but we all have it. Just like we are all a bit Domme.

Anyway... back to the gift. or lack there of.

I say that BDSM is a relationship, not simply a gift and taking of the gift. You meet someone, the relationship grows, trust builds, and the submission isn't really gifted. That's simply a simplistic term we use to describe an incredible combination of giving and simply taking.

I think sometimes a submissive has no control at all over that submission. It is simply taken. And for others they call it giving their submission when it's just an act. Never really letting go and giving it up. Or perhaps they do eventually give it up, but once again, I think it is taken more then gifted.

Perhaps it might make more sense to say the opportunity to have thier submission is the gift. The moment they truly... completely... submit... That is more of something that is simply taken.

Just a thought.

XXXXX


There were many replies, and then I chimed in with this after giving it some serious thought.



As I had read this, I find it intriguing as I had always read that submission is a gift as well. It is the sub's to give to a special Dom. The only matter is if he or she will accept the sub's gift and what he or she does with it. Will said gift be used to teach and help the sub grow or will it be used to destroy and turn the sub away? I might be new to the lifestyle, and as such not make any sense with my post, but from what I had seen and heard quite a few subs had left certain Doms because the subs needed something more and said Dom was not able to fulfill the sub's wishes.

Again, just a thought and an opinion. I am always up for an INTELLEGENT discussion about it with no bashing or condemning.


I know that all have their own opinions, and I would like to hear from many others. This poll will remain open as I like to see others and also if those who voted wants to change their votes they can.

[Diablo]

i am definitely in the minority.

i get the reciprocal trust, the nurturing aspects. and i understand the idea of completion. that my submissive self is the missing piece of his dominant self.

but it's all so hallmark greeting card sounding. like i have this thing - my submission - all wrapped up so pretty that i hand to him.

it's a work in process. it's fluid. sometimes i fail him and sometimes his actions aren't what i expect. but we work together to come out stronger.

i don't see my submission as a gift. maybe i'm getting hung up on semantics. i see my submission as a part of me. and i give him my whole self.

Indeed you are getting caught in semantics.

How is it only a part of you?

It is who you are, just as your intelligence or empathy or any other characteristic is who you are.

So giving your submission is as much about giving that aspect as it is giving yourself. It would not be a gift if the dom just deserved it, that would be a right. But we must get to know each other before entering into a Dom sub relationship and the gift is a two way street.

We give each other exactly what the other seeks. The gift of submission for the gift of domination, so a trade. But it is not that simple. The sub gives up certain or complete control and for that, I at least view it as one of the greatest most selfless gifts.

One I would never be able to do myself. So I thank My kitten for her gift to me.

[twistedspet]

i view it as more of an...arrangement. i allow Her to Own me. She allows me to submit to Her. Wwe both meet the needs of the other.

In there are feelings grow.

[HelenaKitten]

It is a gift, unless you are actually forcing someone that would not want to be your submissive to be submissive to you.

I agree with Diablo mostly because it's true.

[irishman112145]

For someone to submit to you with all of there heart and sole there is none better. One given with no restraints is the only true submission.:bondage:

[bambina]

I vote no simply because the gift giver (subs) are the ones who get the reward. The affect it has on the Dom is just another result. Submissives aren't submissive for the sake of somebody else. They are submissive because of the the perks that come with submission. because I guarantee that if a submissive didn't get any joy out of being a sub then she ouldn't be one, even if he loved one wished it so. It's sort of like a guy buying a flat screen TV 'for the family' when we all know who it's really for.

[Pearlgem]

I vote no simply because the gift giver (subs) are the ones who get the reward. The affect it has on the Dom is just another result. Submissives aren't submissive for the sake of somebody else. They are submissive because of the the perks that come with submission. because I guarantee that if a submissive didn't get any joy out of being a sub then she ouldn't be one, even if he loved one wished it so. It's sort of like a guy buying a flat screen TV 'for the family' when we all know who it's really for.

I hope both subs and Doms get joy from being what they are and I assume they both do it because it's really what they want to do.

But you're missing the point of the dynamics involved if you think that the sub gets only selfish gratification for submissive behaviour and the Dom gets 'just another result.' I personally think it would be pointless being so superficially involved with someone like that. I prize my submission and my relationship with my Dom much more highly than that. I need to give him my submission and he needs to take it but it's by no means always easy. He allows me to give him that which he prizes above all else. That last bit of giving, pleasing, willing and total submission to his desires - that's the gift he allows me to give him because he is who he is and I am who I am. It's almost a mystical union.

Otherwise, why not just masturbate?

[sinderella]

Master doesn't rip your submission from you, He accepts it when you give it freely, so submission is a gift because it is not given easily to just anyone...it is a long journey and not a romantic ideal, just reality, just as his dominance and guidance are gifts that He gives to you.

[cadela]

I voted no. Submission for me is a need, not a gift, and it is this need that a Dominant picks up and fulfills for His own need to own and control another being. A gift is something that is given - a need is a far deeper desire.

[thenatural]

Submission to me is and act of will power, my will. When I surrender to my master I invoke my will to do the will of another, his. What he does with that power is in his discretion. I have been and will always be very choosy of who I hand my power too. There is a light and dark side to everything, in the dark a Dom could beat me, starve me, etc. and turn me into something that would obey his command, but that is not my submission.

[Orpheus]

I think submission is a gift as much as dominance is. Both are (hopefully) willingly given to the other so that both people involved can feel wonderful.

[Carpe Coma]

The "submission is a gift" is one of the few statements that really sticks in my craw. I used to sort of agree with it, in that submission is something that is given, however my take on the subject has shifted away from there over time.

Part of the problem is the use of the word "gift". "Gift" carries implications that it is something awarded or a present. This leads to submissives demanding that a dominant "earn" their submission, or some such nonsense (doing this will put you on the expressway to my bad side). The only way I can somewhat agree with that statement is if "gift" is defined only as "something that is given".

The other part of the problem is the black and white phrasing. It creates a dichotomy of either all submission being given or no instance of submission is given. This simply isn't the case. It is nearly impossible to actually 'force' anyone to do anything, as anything under conscious control requires the person to make a choice. However, not all instances of submission are accompanied by the perception of choice. If someone doesn't perceive that they had a choice, did they really have one? In fact, there is a significant subset of submissive desires which is characterized by the submissive feeling that he/she does not have a choice. I would be hard pressed to find a solid argument that submission was given in those cases.

So submission can be given, it can be taken, but it is not a 'gift' as the word is commonly used.

[steelish]

IMHO I absolutely think submission is a gift, just as I think domination is a gift.

I've heard it said that submission is not a gift that we give to our Masters, like some people try to tell us, because a gift can be taken back when it is no longer wanted.

Well, that very statement supports my argument that submission is a gift. Submission can be taken away. A submissive is capable of breaking things off with his or her dominant and/or taking away the gift of submission.

[Matin]

i think it is a gift...

i have this bone deep need to be the nurturer, the guide, the protector, and the master of my tiny little fiefdom.

some how i meet this woman who has the strength to give me HERSELF, and by doing so fulfill both of us.

it feels like christmas morning to me, but back when i was tiny and there was still wonder in the world. like that. :D

[FrozenGrapes]

I agree. It is a gift. But not just one-way. I see my relationship with a Master as an exchange. I relinquish my control to him.. submit. He accepts that and offers his control of me. We exchange.

I relinquish control...he accepts it. I give him my trust and respect... he respects and trusts me. He is pleased with my submission... I am pleased with his control. Each one in the relationship must offer equally, an exchange.

My reponsibility in this is to obey. To continually grow in my desire to give him more and more control over me. His responsibility is to keep that control and hold it responsibly.

It is not just my Master "doing" things to me, or "taking" things from me. He cannot lead where I will not follow. It's like a complicated and beautiful dance. Both partners must perform their part to make it happen. But Master leads.

WOW yeah i totally agree with Sadiej! very very well put.. I don't think i can expand on that anymore. Beautifully put!