Gender

[voxelectronica]

Gender has to be one of my favorite topics because i don't subscribe to one. I'm physically female and embrace that in a very physical sense. (I like wearing make up and smelling good) but mentally I'm very male. If someone eats my pussy I think of it as them sucking my cock (for instance).

Domination is a reflection of what is male in me. Which is why I ultimately can't Dom physical or mental males regardless of physical gender.

I don't often talk about things like this to groups of people so...

comments? suggestions?

[shyslut]

I say all people are people. That gender is something you coincidentally happen to get at birth. I am attracted "PEOPLE" whether male, female or transgendered. Of course there are male/hard and female/soft as well as asexual people and you can have any number of preferences or compatibilities come into play. Were all just people <3

[WyldWyl]

I endorse shyslut's views.

I honestly put very little importance onto gender- which is odd, given that one of my kicks is forced feminisation. But it's not something I tend to let guide me in my life, and so it's fun to guide people over the arbitrary male/female boundary.

[blythe spirit]

Interesting post to say the least.

I'm of the opinion that we are all born with both male and female spirits. One is obviously more predominant than the other.

Scientifically speaking, both genders carry estrogen and testosterone in our chemical makeup. Most men produce 6-8 mg of the male hormone testosterone (an androgen) per day, compared to most women who produce 0.5 mg daily. Female hormones, estrogens, are also present in both sexes, but in larger amounts for women.

Is it possible that you have a strong male spirit and more testoserone than the average female? Or have I misinterpreted what you meant? lol

[fellintobed]

Is it possible that you have a strong male spirit and more testoserone than the average female?

I cannot speak for the OP but I think this is true for myself. I have never particularly identified as being female, although I know I'm not a male. I rarely wear heels or skirts, and even more rarely wear makeup. My face is fairly androgynous, and I have experimented with 'genderfuck', i.e. dressing myself and choosing hairstyles in such a way that my overall look is androgynous. I am not able to pass as an adult male (I once passed as a teen male, and the person was quite embarrassed when they realized I was in fact an adult woman!) but I wish that I could, that I had that choice.

Androgyny and gender hasn't really come up in my sex life, other than the plain fact of my female anatomy. Someone commented to me that he would love to see me dressed up girly-girl, and it would be something very foreign and humiliating to me, rather like what I imagine 'forced feminization' is to men. I think that that belief alone qualifies me for an androgynous spirit rather than a female or male spirit... whether that's the case, or whether I have a female and a male spirit and the male spirit is unusually strong, I don't know.

[tusayan]

My two bits.

Interesting topic and there are some interesting personal takes on the Western concept of gender, which is not universal to the human condition. There are many instances in non-Western societies of "multiple genders" recognized regardless of a persons anatomy. There are also multiple roles that people of either sex can take that may be looked on by Western observes as "gender bending" or switching roles but is seen quite differently by the group in question.

It's also a fact that in some other societies, assuming a gendered role does automatically mean that the person in question assumes the sexual lifestyle as well. For example, a woman choosing an otherwise male role in society is not necessarily sexually attracted to women -- she may have other motivations, feelings, aspirations.

Gender is something constructed by society, different from biological sex. The meaning of what is to be male in terms of gender will be different in different societies. Are there some general patterns? Sure. But it does not surprise me that people don't always view themselves as conforming to the "normal" concept of gender. Nor should we feel constricted to do so.

I'd say that I fit the general Western concept of male gender and never thought otherwise, but it never surprises me that there are a multitude of different personal perspectives on gender in the world.

[Veridical]

Gender to me is something rather interesting to recount.
For one, I feel that all females should be submissive, and all males, Dominant, but that's my personal feelings and I don't force these things on other people, especially not my friends. To this end, I feel that with women I'm generally more 'hard', in the sense that I feel they should be at their Masters' feet, and with men I am generally more 'soft', as in, I am more submissive toward them. My theory is rather hypocritical, I realize, because I basically just contradicted my first statement in saying that I tend to be dominant toward women and submissive toward men. I never claimed my logic was without flaw though, and I fully admit to being a filthy, dirty hypocrite. ;)

Anyway. I differentiate with gender in that sense. With men I am attracted to Dominance. With women I am attracted to submissiveness. This is not to say I'm a switch. Far from it. It's just my views. I've never had the urge to smack some woman's ass, or pull her hair back and call her a dumb cunt. But I DO have the urge to have it done to me by the right guy. ;D

[Dom Teacher]

Gender, unlike sex, is a constructive aspect of our person. It is contiuum with multiple layers in multiple contexts. We negotiate our expression of gender with ourselves and with others.

It's interesting that you equate Dom with masculinity. Why is that so?

[Veridical]

Gender, unlike sex, is a constructive aspect of our person. It is contiuum with multiple layers in multiple contexts. We negotiate our expression of gender with ourselves and with others.

It's interesting that you equate Dom with masculinity. Why is that so?

If I could I'd tell you. I'm sure I'm the bane of most feminists when I say that I feel a woman's place is by her Master's feet. -Looks up.- Hm. I've always assumed it came from the fact that I am heterosexual and submissive, however, I have bisexual tenancies that surface, so I'm sure the root cause of my feeling this way is something far more deep seated than mere preference. I suppose because I equate masculinity with power is one cause, another being I'm intimidated by most men, not in a bad way, but in a way that makes me squirm. Hm. Seems I have more to discover about myself than I originally knew. -Grins.-

As stated, I understand not all relationships fall under the category that I find ideal, being a woman submissive to a Dominant male, but if it's something outside that, it's generally not something for me personally.

[blythe spirit]

Gender is something constructed by society, different from biological sex.

Gender = masculine or feminine. Sex = male or female.

Masculine = male. Feminine = female.

Are definitions different in other parts of the world, or philosophies?

[Dom Teacher]

I guess the point he was trying to make is that gender is more fluid than sex. There are multiple masculinities and there are multiple femininities. This is especially true when gender is compounded by class, race, and other aspects of identity.

[blythe spirit]

I don't know DT, sex with me is usually pretty fluid. lol (sorry couldn't resist)

[Dom Teacher]

I don't know DT, sex with me is usually pretty fluid. lol (sorry couldn't resist)

Pun was left in there intentionally, no need to apologize:blurp_ani

[tusayan]

Gender = masculine or feminine. Sex = male or female.

Masculine = male. Feminine = female.

Are definitions different in other parts of the world, or philosophies?

Well, you can break it down into those categories (I would, anyway). But it's more complex than that (isn't everything? lol).

Even within the Western world, you have people (I'm thinking of some feminist theorists in this case) that would challenge those basic categories.

But, what I meant was that in every society there are norms accepted by the majority of people that define what is masculine and feminine. And these aren't the same across the board. They even change through time.

For example, in the US today the majority would probably not define a real man as a male who wears lace, is well perfumed, wears make-up, a powdered wig of long hair and is well versed in romances and ballroom dancing.

But, there are also third genders or multiple gender categories that are accepted in other cultures. And it has to do with the role people take on, not necessarily their sexuality (although it may involve sexuality as well).

This is really interesting to me compared to the orthodox Western view of two genders, two sexes, two different roles, one type of sexuality and anything is else is outside of the norm.

We're seeing in this thread, too, that individuals have their own take on how they accept or reject, enact or react to those norms.

[tusayan]

I guess the point he was trying to make is that gender is more fluid than sex. There are multiple masculinities and there are multiple femininities. This is especially true when gender is compounded by class, race, and other aspects of identity.

Yeah, something like that. You said a lot more concisely than I did. lol

[voxelectronica]

It's interesting that you equate Dom with masculinity. Why is that so?

I, like Ipet have always felt that men should be Dom and women should be submissive. Nature has dictated that. Let's face it... Men are stronger than women and can, at will penetrate them (though of course legal/ethical issues arise from that). I just don't feel that nature made every physical female a mental female. I also think that sex and bdsm is more mental.

Other than that. Most cultures view masculinity as dominance as hardness.



Gender = masculine or feminine. Sex = male or female.

Masculine = male. Feminine = female.

Are definitions different in other parts of the world, or philosophies?

They are. Some cultures actually have what is called "the third gender". That's actually my preferred gender. It's female boys and girls who feel differently than their nature assigned physical gender. I'm not attracted by sexual organs specifically. (though a great set of tits is a great set of tits).

I am attracted to physical boys who act like girls. Not like male subs... but like girls. I actually reward acting like a female more than i prefer forced feminization.

I'm physically a female and enjoy physical aspects of that however I am mentally a boy.

[gagged_Louise]

Yes, gender is more like a field of negotiated experience, about the way óne comes across as more or less masculine/womanly/brash/commanding/soft-spoken/ strident/silly etc - and the kind of relations you get involved in, and how they look - than just the fixed fact of being physically male or female. That latter one is immutable for 99.9% of people unless you actually go through a physical sex-change, which wasn't possible until fifty years ago.

In a book about Martha Stewart a few years ago - I think it appeared shortly before she was sentenced to jail, sorry I don't recall the name of the author - a recurrent theme in the picture of her was that behind the scenes, she had been rough, brash, too greedy (competitive and hard-fisted - virtues in a male CEO) and apparently also had Dominated her husband - figuratively speaking: she had forced him to give up some of his opportunities in business and serve her business empire. At the same time, Ms Stewart's status as a house stuff & cooking priestess in America rests solidly on her feminine image, doesn't it?

Though the writer didn't come out and say gender was the issue, he clearly felt she was being "unwomanly", and the quarrel was with her having been 'no real woman' rather than with being a tomboy or doing what it takes to get rich, and this was a grave sin. The same thing recurs with Hillary Clinton or female soccer players (often accused of being lesbians) - they are seen as "not real women" or it's flatly stated "lesbians are girls who were ugly, had hairy armpits and didn't learn how to please a man, so they didn't get enough cock in their teens - in frustration they turned to other loser girls". That last one is a view I think is perfectly dumbass.

Madonna's impending divorce also has lots of gender implications - she was always a far bigger success than Guy Ritchie, and she's been both playing on, subverting and submitting to the limitations of her woman-ness. I don't think she's being very subtle, but the pushing of gender boundaries is a constant part of her shows and her public personality.

[hopperboo]

As stated, I understand not all relationships fall under the category that I find ideal, being a woman submissive to a Dominant male, but if it's something outside that, it's generally not something for me personally.
This is pretty much where I stand also.

I like men to act like men and woman to act like women.

I think a big reason why people are not sure about their gender identities is because this day and age people are taught not to conform to a gender. Not to mention all the split marriages where either mother or father isn't present and the child may not be getting that male or female role model.

*I believe there are always exceptions of course, where something chemically really IS more male/female in one's mind or body.



No offense meant to anyone, this is just my opinion.

[gagged_Louise]

No offence, but the point where it gets sticky is when this neat split-up real men - real women (talking of behaviour, thinking, attitudes - not what organs they have) is hailed as something objectively right, something carved in stone, or in DNA, for all time. Real men are hunters, short-tempered, competitive and want to rule things alone, they don't sob and they never accept close friendship from a woman if they think they can have sex and want to. Real women are nurturing, a bit emotional and guilt-ridden, care about their looks and put hubby's career and the kids before their own job.

I don't think most gays, lesbians or other erotically "non-standard" people wish to make everybody else become gay, or insist on that men should always stay at home with their kids and should be ashamed if they are fast-paced, competitive and gritty. What gays, dykes and trans people etc want is more, like, the right not to be slammed with "you're not acting like a real man/woman" from a hundred newspaper columns, ads and books, from everyday talk too, and then get branded as misers or, again, not-real-so-and-so, if they try to pitch a discussion about why it's like that. In a sense, many gay men probably want gayness to be a non-issue in society, or at least a non-sexual issue to the people they don't choose to have sexual relations with, but that's a long way off. And this becomes all the more striking because you can't, in pretty much any country, define yourself as midway between man and woman and make the world around you buy it: the gender identity, and the many correlates of it in behaviour and styling (do you wear a skirt? perfume? are you likely to cry if you're very afraid or moved? will you plan the weekend for the family and make sure things run smoothly?) even if constructed have to be pretty definite on the surface, or it will just get confused.

Since sympathetic gay men (I'm using it as an instance of "non-standard males") were all but absent from, like, mainstream movies and tv until around 1980, this idea that "real men are hot-blooded womanizers or John Wayne types" can look all but self-evident. But there's nothing objective about it.

[Ozme52]

Yeah, I have to disagree with boo...

Though I don't have any insights to the other "states" I had my epiphany that it has all too much to do with the brain... and therefore how we're born. We know that we are all of the same stock... dna... and that we're all physically the same gender (or perhaps better to say genderless,) in the womb early on... That sexual differentiation occurs along the way... and that it can get mixed up... XX with penises, XY with vaginas... so why not assume that the more complex organ, the brain can get mixed up too.

But I digress. I realized that my sexuality manifests itself from the brain and that it has an awful lot to do with how I process shapes. I was in Vegas at the same time as a body building championship was being held... found myself behind this absolutely "gorgeous" woman... and... nothing.

Then I realized that her triangular back, trapazoid shaped trapezeus, her polygonal buttocks... made my reaction to her the same as if she were male.

Suddenly it's clear (at least to me) that shapes matter.

Now don't get me wrong... I know this is an over simplification.

Men and lesbians are attracted to curves.
Women and gay men are attracted to angles.

And for another thread if anyone is interested... the "ill" are attracted to squares and rectangles, which if you look... are what we humans tend to look like before puberty.

[fellintobed]

Now don't get me wrong... I know this is an over simplification.

Men and lesbians are attracted to curves.
Women and gay men are attracted to angles.

It might be fairer to state:

In our society, curves and roundness on women are considered generally attractive.
In our society, angularity and edges on men are considered generally attractive.

I know you were oversimplifying, but as long as we're going to oversimplify, might as well use inclusive language.

[gagged_Louise]

The talk page below on "real women" and porn brings home a few easy short circuits and points where the "women who dress in an alluring way are asking to get laid asap, so they shouldn't try to play no blame game" argument tends to get a bit mixed up.

http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum14/HTML/000508.html

[gagged_Louise]

Though the discussion at the link just above starts out from porn, it soon moves into questions of gender, "slutty dress" and masculine/feminine self-images. The guy called "USADave" and the flat contradictions in his lines of argument - on one hand, he maintains that sexual orientations aren't much to do with your outdoor, daytime personality, it really comes to life in private; on the other he's hellbent that real men and real women are like in an old Western movie - is one of the things that make it so illuminating.

[voxelectronica]

Note that I'm not quoting anyone on this, it's just a feeling i get from the last couple of posts and my responses to them.

The idea that lesbians and straight men like curves and gay men and women like angles is way off base. If that were the truth then all lesbians and straight men would also like anyone who was chubby.

The truth is (and I've seen this especially in lesbians) what people are attracted to is wildly different even in the same person. There are a lot of angular lesbians who attract a lot of lesbian attention.

I also very much like social roles because they have their place. Women are scientifically different than men and from those scientific difference we derive our stereotypes.

Martha is the BEST example of that actually. Women have more white matter which makes them better at lying, communication, language, and manipulation. Martha more times than not simply used those to her advantage in her empire. She didn't get ahead by "out manning" a man in a "man's world"... she did it by out womaning him. Women are meant to get ahead... quietly.

For me, the biggest tell about gender roles are trannies. They FEEL feminine, they feel like their body needs to match that. When i start talking about hunting and camping i start to feel more masculine, so do a lot of m2f. It's when physical members of another gender identifies with feelings and attitudes that they all believe to be of the opposite gender to the degree that they must change their physical appearance that you have to accept there is a difference.

I don't think that it's your junk which defines you as your gender as a lot (if not all) transgenders will tell you, it's how you feel and they are real men and real women based off how they feel and act.

[blythe spirit]

Men and lesbians are attracted to curves.
Women and gay men are attracted to angles.

Is that the norm, Oz, based on research? The reason I'm questioning it, is because I know too many men who don't like curves. They're attracted more to straight lines.


The idea that lesbians and straight men like curves and gay men and women like angles is way off base. If that were the truth then all lesbians and straight men would also like anyone who was chubby.


I don't believe you (collectively) can equate curves with chubby. Curves are a shape, whilst chubby is more so defined as being slightly overweight.

[hopperboo]

White matter? :D lol.

[voxelectronica]

I don't believe you (collectively) can equate curves with chubby. Curves are a shape, whilst chubby is more so defined as being slightly overweight.

The state of being chubby gives you the shapes of curves. That's not saying all curvy women are over weight. In high school I remember telling some really mean fat girl that my curves, curved in while her's curved out.

If all straight men and lesbians liked the shape of curves then they would have found both me and the ridiculously overweight girl equally appealing. I just don't see how that would be true.

[Ozme52]

It might be fairer to state:

In our society, curves and roundness on women are considered generally attractive.
In our society, angularity and edges on men are considered generally attractive.

I know you were oversimplifying, but as long as we're going to oversimplify, might as well use inclusive language.


But I'm saying it's not societal. I'm suggesting that we are genetically predisposed to respond to certain visual cues.

Society changes the degree of the cue... or perhaps better to say it alters enhances the response when the cue meets certain societal beliefs.

White, (meaning untanned,) skin and plump if you're in 19th Century British Victorian England (because that signifies wealth and prosperity, and just the opposite in the latter half of the 20th Century in the USA... for much the same reasoning.

But the basic cues, the shapes, strike me as instinct. And given the nature of how we develop in the womb, and the complexity of our brains, and the fact that diversity creates greater opportunity for the species to prosper, the whole question of gender orientation is a natural one.

It's really only the modern churches, which, imo, believe procreation extends their power, that have created this onus against "non-traditional" gendering.

Go BC and it was quite acceptable...

[Ozme52]

Note that I'm not quoting anyone on this, it's just a feeling i get from the last couple of posts and my responses to them.

The idea that lesbians and straight men like curves and gay men and women like angles is way off base. If that were the truth then all lesbians and straight men would also like anyone who was chubby.

Well no one else said anything like this... so you must mean me.

I was just pointing out one aspect. Visual cues. And if you want to quibble after I already said I knew I was oversimplifying the idea... fine. So let's quibble.


The truth is (and I've seen this especially in lesbians) what people are attracted to is wildly different even in the same person. There are a lot of angular lesbians who attract a lot of lesbian attention.


How am I "off base" for pointing out something "I" obsrved and believe, but you know "the truth" because you've "seen" it?


I also very much like social roles because they have their place. Women are scientifically different than men and from those scientific difference we derive our stereotypes.
What!!! Do women have a different set of scientific theories than men? I mean yeah, individuals may disagree on how the world works... but I have NEVER heard anyone say there's a basic gender-driven basis for what men and women believe to be true. :rolleyes:


Martha is the BEST example of that actually. Women have more white matter which makes them better at lying, communication, language, and manipulation. Martha more times than not simply used those to her advantage in her empire. She didn't get ahead by "out manning" a man in a "man's world"... she did it by out womaning him. Women are meant to get ahead... quietly.

Huh? Are you implying that scientific theories proposed by women are lies because they have more white matter? Or did you actually change the topic midstream... I'm disappointed that you think a woman can't be successful because she's smart... but has to lie to get ahead.


For me, the biggest tell about gender roles are trannies. They FEEL feminine, they feel like their body needs to match that. When i start talking about hunting and camping i start to feel more masculine, so do a lot of m2f. It's when physical members of another gender identifies with feelings and attitudes that they all believe to be of the opposite gender to the degree that they must change their physical appearance that you have to accept there is a difference.

What the heck do you mean by "feel"? Where's it come from. What makes you "feel" the way you do? How does one "feel" masculine or feminine? If you're going to argue against something like visual cues being interpretted in the brain, give us something more than "feelings" because they're generated in the brain too... and ultimately, you're saying exactly the same thing as I said.


I don't think that it's your junk which defines you as your gender as a lot (if not all) transgenders will tell you, it's how you feel and they are real men and real women based off how they feel and act.

Yep. Exactly the same thing.

[tusayan]

But I'm saying it's not societal. I'm suggesting that we are genetically predisposed to respond to certain visual cues.

Society changes the degree of the cue... or perhaps better to say it alters enhances the response when the cue meets certain societal beliefs.

White, (meaning untanned,) skin and plump if you're in 19th Century British Victorian England (because that signifies wealth and prosperity, and just the opposite in the latter half of the 20th Century in the USA... for much the same reasoning.

But the basic cues, the shapes, strike me as instinct. And given the nature of how we develop in the womb, and the complexity of our brains, and the fact that diversity creates greater opportunity for the species to prosper, the whole question of gender orientation is a natural one.

It's really only the modern churches, which, imo, believe procreation extends their power, that have created this onus against "non-traditional" gendering.

Go BC and it was quite acceptable...

I think there's something to this line of thinking. It's been shown from an evolutionary point of view there are definitely visual cues, that are part of our hardwiring, that are used to determine the fitness of potential mates.

By fitness, I'm not talking about pilates, I'm talking about fitness in the Darwinian sense.

I don't know about shapes necessarily, but body development in females including a certain amount of fat reserves in the thighs, hips and breasts are visual clues that do give off signals about prime reproductive age. These things are tracked by males in studies. Often it's subconcious or just people choosing their "type" - the underlying pattern is there, however.

That doesn't mean there isn't going to be some variation among individuals, though. But it is a general pattern.

[Ozme52]

Is that the norm, Oz, based on research? The reason I'm questioning it, is because I know too many men who don't like curves. They're attracted more to straight lines.

As I said, it was just an observation of mine.

Nor was I suggesting there was a normative type. No specific set of curves or angles. Just a generality.

[Ozme52]

The state of being chubby gives you the shapes of curves. That's not saying all curvy women are over weight. In high school I remember telling some really mean fat girl that my curves, curved in while her's curved out.

If all straight men and lesbians liked the shape of curves then they would have found both me and the ridiculously overweight girl equally appealing. I just don't see how that would be true.

Obviously you don't want to consider the concept that it's about how we're wired in the brain... which is what the post was about... and the discussion of shapes described how I got to the concept!!

There are other cues that cause us to react, (you know, cues that create feelings in us,) both visual, such as facial hair, aural cues, olfactory cues. The things that help us recognize whom we're interfacing with. They cause reactions in the brain and thus feelings about our place in relation to the person we're in contact with.

[Ozme52]

I think there's something to this line of thinking. It's been shown from an evolutionary point of view there are definitely visual cues, that are part of our hardwiring, that are used to determine the fitness of potential mates.

By fitness, I'm not talking about pilates, I'm talking about fitness in the Darwinian sense.

I don't know about shapes necessarily, but body development in females including a certain amount of fat reserves in the thighs, hips and breasts are visual clues that do give off signals about prime reproductive age. These things are tracked by males in studies. Often it's subconcious or just people choosing their "type" - the underlying pattern is there, however.

That doesn't mean there isn't going to be some variation among individuals, though. But it is a general pattern.

Exactly. And given that, and diversity, and fetal development, and a host of other factors, I have no problem with accepting heterosexuals, homosexuals, transgendering, et. al., as a normal part of humanity.

[gagged_Louise]

Actually the ideals of an attractive body - in both men and women - have been so different over time that you'd be hard pressed to find any deepset matrix of what straight bio males, lesbians, straight women etc would appreciate. And for most older ages we don't have a lot of firm evidence of what body types women appreciated in men - only what they were supposed to like! Art works and books were mostly created or commissioned by males.

The taste for sun tanned skin and sleek, lithe, muscular bodies is a 20th century thing; in Victorian England - or France at the same time - it was pale skin and for men, rounded, firm bodies, for women fine-boned and slim frames (as you pointed out, Oz). The Romans seem to have appreciated muscular, angular women to judge from statues and coins. And so on. I'm with voxelectronica: even the same person may appreciate quite different things in body shapes, just as in music. Trying to strap it onto biological sex or straight/gay won't work.

And looking for a chemical basis to this isn't useful. It's like saying you could make a robot appreciate Beethoven's Eroica if you run the right chemical reactioins through it.

By the way, if we're talking of subconscious appreciation of the junk that is useful for bedding and procreation, the other day I asked a lady I trust a lot on this forum if she felt that women in general see cocks as objects of beauty or if their eyes are drawn to the crotch of a dressed man to try to figure out "has he got a big hard one down there?" Both men and women have that kind of "art appreciation" for nice breast shapes, even under a sweater, and even when they are not dreaming of getting intimate with the woman (so it's "appreciation without selfish interest") The answer I got was a firm no, she felt nipples (on men) were a lot sexier, and didn't see women spying out the aesthetic shape of dicks on strangers or in movies. ;)

[tusayan]

Like with everything, attractiveness is going to vary among indivduals. But if you sit a group of people down in a room and show them images of different body types, facial types, etc. general patterns do emerge.

I agree, though, that this is filtered through social conditioning, etc. and individual tastes. Which provides for the variability that seems to be infinite. I don't think it's an either/or subject.

[voxelectronica]

I'm not arguing with someone who is openly angry and hostile.

[voxelectronica]

Agreed on all points W/gagged_Louise. My gay male friends go for my breasts every chance they get. Stranger gay male's will do the same. One gay male has even said "I love you're breasts because they're like an ass that i can play with at a natural level for my hands". Everyone has their own reason for what they like and what they're comfortable with. Attraction is not an easy game to play.

There are countless biological reasons why one mental gender will find this that or another attractive.

For the record I don't find the male crotch to be a pleasing area at all. It's utilitarian... period. I'd rather it all be tucked away and a strap on be used. If I'm to be penetrated at all.

[gloombunny]

For me, the biggest tell about gender roles are trannies. They FEEL feminine, they feel like their body needs to match that. When i start talking about hunting and camping i start to feel more masculine, so do a lot of m2f. It's when physical members of another gender identifies with feelings and attitudes that they all believe to be of the opposite gender to the degree that they must change their physical appearance that you have to accept there is a difference.
I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but it kind of sounds like you're saying that, for instance, an MTF transsexual is someone who identifies with feminine attitudes so much that they go through all the hassles necessary to get a female body? 'cuz that really isn't how it works. Transsexuality isn't about how feminine or masculine you are or want to be. Like with me - I'm transsexual (female, born with a male body that I'm in the process of female-izing), but I have a pretty strong butch streak in my womanhood. I wouldn't describe myself as very feminine, but I consider myself very much female nonetheless.

If there's one thing I've learned from years of talking to and reading the writings of and about various sorts of transgendered people, it's that things are far, far more intricate and complicated than you'd ever imagine without getting really into it. The closer you look, the more subtle-yet-significant distinctions and variations you find. There are more identities in sex and gender than are dreamt of in your philosophy... no matter what your philosophy is, as far as I can tell. Learning not to try to make sense of everything with some kind of general theory has been a difficult but valuable lesson for me.


edit: My first post in months and it's about transgender issues. I guess I'm kind of predictable.

[gagged_Louise]

I get what you mean gloombunny, but isn't this about having the choice how one wants to shape one's femaleness too? Someone who is physically born (biology) and raised (social mores and codes) a woman has, in some ways, more of a choice how to "be female" - and that's not just equal to being tender, caring, graceful and nurturing - because she has a firm foundation: no one can take away her female body and her knowledge of 'living in a women's realm' and feeling natural with it. But to others who identify strongly with some kind of female attitudes and qualities, or could see themselves being in a girl's position sexually - we both do that, though in different ways - this is not a foundation we were born with, a learning process is involved, and getting to be an in-the-flesh female may seem the ground needed to get there - and also, in order to get other people to accept this side of you on an everyday basis. Without having to explain "I'm not a freak or a cracked actor, this is me". You're absolutely right that trans behaviour and transgender reality is a very multi-faceted phenomenon.

For an analogy, middle-class kids with a secure home base, money from home and a good education opt to dress down and act like working-class outsiders/punks some of the time. It's not the working class kids you most often see showing off that kind of rebellion cool or style warfare. Many of them would shy away from dressing in a "sloppy" way for a party, a reception, a night at the theatre. Why? Because the middle class kids have the money and the security to indulge in playing colourful white trash, and then return to their elite college or PR bureau. ;) They have the freedom to choose, even when that means choosing to deny the normal ways of the middle class - and having the freedom to say "this stuff is important to me/to us and that stuff isn't much to care about" (in a general sense, not just talking style and music here) and backing it up with being a man/woman/student/black immigrant/media personality etc is part of the freedom to express yourself, but it's not a right we are born with. Think of all the instances when person X is able to say something for which person Y would have been booed off stage and branded an idiot, because X is, more or less consciously, reckoned to have "the background" that makes it a viable or permissible thing to say.

[voxelectronica]

If there's one thing I've learned from years of talking to and reading the writings of and about various sorts of transgendered people, it's that things are far, far more intricate and complicated than you'd ever imagine without getting really into it. The closer you look, the more subtle-yet-significant distinctions and variations you find. There are more identities in sex and gender than are dreamt of in your philosophy... no matter what your philosophy is, as far as I can tell. Learning not to try to make sense of everything with some kind of general theory has been a difficult but valuable lesson for me.



But isn't that the case in biological women as well? A biological man and women can both have both masculine and feminine traits. Butch lesbians don't lop their tits off and buy a strap on.

What i am saying is that there is something that is identifiable of female. I believe in the proven fact that there is a difference in the female and the male brain. There is also a noticeable difference in the Transgendered brain which is why i support the ideology of a third gender. (more prevalent in Eastern cultures).

I'm not saying that transgendered has anything to do with stereotypical roles of femininity. If that were the case it would be almost unheard of to see lesbian transgendered which is not the case... at all. I am saying that there is a mental state of female and a mental state of male. You can be a butch girl. I'm incredibly "lady like" in my day to day comings and goings, that doesn't mean i can't shot a gun, clean a fish, swing a sword etc. I don't think that being a butch girl negates having to accept that there is a difference in gender.

[voxelectronica]

Think of all the instances when person X is able to say something for which person Y would have been booed off stage and branded an idiot, because X is, more or less consciously, reckoned to have "the background" that makes it a viable or permissible thing to say.

This reminds me of Thai LadyBoys. They were born male but because they have become female they have this odd... station. They are able to act in what society would consider a raunchy way for a female. Very in your face female, in a society that values demur hidden women. If a biological women had attempted this she would have more happened to her than just booing.

They get to us their masculine status to enjoy being a woman. (let's not believe that I'm saying that conditions for all MtF in Thailand are great).

[gloombunny]

I get what you mean gloombunny, but isn't this about having the choice how one wants to shape one's femaleness too? Someone who is physically born (biology) and raised (social mores and codes) a woman has, in some ways, more of a choice how to "be female" - and that's not just equal to being tender, caring, graceful and nurturing - because she has a firm foundation: no one can take away her female body and her knowledge of 'living in a women's realm' and feeling natural with it. But to others who identify strongly with some kind of female attitudes and qualities, or could see themselves being in a girl's position sexually - we both do that, though in different ways - this is not a foundation we were born with, a learning process is involved, and getting to be an in-the-flesh female may seem the ground needed to get there - and also, in order to get other people to accept this side of you on an everyday basis. Without having to explain "I'm not a freak or a cracked actor, this is me". You're absolutely right that trans behaviour and transgender reality is a very multi-faceted phenomenon.
Honestly? Nah. If a trans woman feels confident enough in her femaleness, and it can take a while for that to be the case, she can act just as non-feminine as any cis woman. Worst case scenario, she runs a higher risk of being "read" as male, but ultimately... to me, at least, I feel that it's worth that downside if that's what it takes to act like myself instead of trying to mold myself to some ideal I don't subscribe to.

[gloombunny]

But isn't that the case in biological women as well? A biological man and women can both have both masculine and feminine traits. Butch lesbians don't lop their tits off and buy a strap on.
Well, except some of them do. The line between butch and FTM isn't always so clear. I didn't mean to restrict anything that I said to only transsexuals - I was talking about anyone whose gender identity or expression is atypical for their anatomical birth sex, if they even have a clearly identifiable sex. (Some people don't.)


What i am saying is that there is something that is identifiable of female. I believe in the proven fact that there is a difference in the female and the male brain. There is also a noticeable difference in the Transgendered brain which is why i support the ideology of a third gender. (more prevalent in Eastern cultures).
There are differences between average male brains and average female brains, but individuals vary widely. And the studies I've heard of have indicated that transsexual women have brains similar to cis women, and same for men, not that there's a third kind of brain.

(And why stop at three? There's at least one culture that recognizes five genders. Just be careful not to push anyone into a gender they don't want - I identify strongly as a woman, not a third anything, for instance.)


I'm not saying that transgendered has anything to do with stereotypical roles of femininity. If that were the case it would be almost unheard of to see lesbian transgendered which is not the case... at all. I am saying that there is a mental state of female and a mental state of male. You can be a butch girl. I'm incredibly "lady like" in my day to day comings and goings, that doesn't mean i can't shot a gun, clean a fish, swing a sword etc. I don't think that being a butch girl negates having to accept that there is a difference in gender.
Sounds like I misunderstood you at first, then. :) I agree that there are definite mental states of male and female that are independent of one's physical sex. Julia Serano, who I admit to being a bit of a fangirl of, calls it "subconscious sex" - the sex of your mind at a fundamental level, which matches the physical birth sex for most people, but can cause great distress when it doesn't match. But just as there are intersexed people whose physical birth sex isn't clearly male or female, there are people who seem to have a subconscious sex that doesn't cleanly fit into male or female either.

[gagged_Louise]

I don't think there is anything strange either about a woman acting in a forthright, rough butch way - or, as Vox pointed out,a ladyboy showing that side. I never subscribed to that all women have to be lilies. But I do think there's always some fields of expectations of within what range a woman does act/should act, and the idea of what is normal/what in fact happens and what is "natural and fitting" mostly gets blurred in these issues.
So gender ideas, male and female styles is something that happens between individuals and the people around them, and their culture. It's not feasible to act like you had never heard of, or thought about, what women and men are expected to be like in the time and country where you happen to live, unless you have inherited money and can afford to live without adapting to anything. Now that doesn't mean that women or mtf trans girls always must bend to the mainstream ideas of femininity - of course not!

[voxelectronica]

Well, except some of them do.
The line between butch and FTM isn't always so clear.

In regards to butch lesbians lopping their tits off at that point they're more a straight male. (If they are lopping them off to be SEEN as male.) For me it's just a matter of what you want the rest of the world to see you as. Though this is getting a bit into semantics.



There are differences between average male brains and average female brains, but individuals vary widely. And the studies I've heard of have indicated that transsexual women have brains similar to cis women, and same for men, not that there's a third kind of brain.

absolutely! There isn't anything in the tran brain that would make it so a doctor could tell the difference and it does resemble the female brain more. It is however uniquely different as it does belong to a male body. (vise versa for MtF)


(And why stop at three? There's at least one culture that recognizes five genders. Just be careful not to push anyone into a gender they don't want - I identify strongly as a woman, not a third anything, for instance.)

Then you *are* a woman and not a third fourth of fifth anything. I personally use a point system to figure out what I am on any given day. Then i determine how I'm going to dress, act, smell. (smell is HUGE for me). I'm not pushing anyone into a gender. I am however saying that society needs it's stereotypes. Even the most "open minded" uses them to some degree. I would rather have a society that had three genders recognized over two.

Then again I would feel more comfortable going to the mens room. Hate that it's an ugly real girl (who looks more like some sort of beast) who has a problem with a beautiful T girl using the girls bathroom and wish that there was just one big bathroom.

[fantasien]

Then again I would feel more comfortable going to the mens room. Hate that it's an ugly real girl (who looks more like some sort of beast) who has a problem with a beautiful T girl using the girls bathroom and wish that there was just one big bathroom.

Hmmm. thats where i am to. why cant we just have one big group bathroom. I mean other colleges has coed locker rooms and bathrooms including showers and everything. So why do they have to be separated by gender or sex?

[hopperboo]

So why do they have to be separated by gender or sex?
Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.



While I was in Paris I was extremely uncomfortable with their bathroom...whatever. We went to this one restaurant and a man came down the stairs (to the bathroom area where we were waiting) while he was unbuttoning his pants.

And the urinal he was using was not closed off. I about died.

[gloombunny]

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.

It's pretty harsh on the minority of people who can't use either bathroom without being harassed, though.

[hopperboo]

It's pretty harsh on the minority of people who can't use either bathroom without being harassed, though.
I really don't mean this to come off bitchy or offensive (seriously), but this isn't a perfect world.

Some people are going to get offended, and if some of them are purposely trying to look different, then...I dunno. If one is trying to look like a guy or a girl, then they should be prepared to be treated as such.

The second people stop treating people on based on their gender someone else is going to be offended because they aren't being treated based on their gender.

It's impossible to make everyone happy.

[PropertyOfMasterJoey]

Interesting post to say the least.

I'm of the opinion that we are all born with both male and female spirits. One is obviously more predominant than the other.

Scientifically speaking, both genders carry estrogen and testosterone in our chemical makeup. Most men produce 6-8 mg of the male hormone testosterone (an androgen) per day, compared to most women who produce 0.5 mg daily. Female hormones, estrogens, are also present in both sexes, but in larger amounts for women.

Is it possible that you have a strong male spirit and more testoserone than the average female? Or have I misinterpreted what you meant? lol

i dunno if that's how it works. my PCOS mentioned on other threads makes me produce extra testosterone but i'm as girly as all give out lol

[gloombunny]

Some people are going to get offended, and if some of them are purposely trying to look different, then...I dunno. If one is trying to look like a guy or a girl, then they should be prepared to be treated as such.

I'm not talking about people who are purposely trying to look different, and I'm certainly not talking about people who are unhappy about getting treated as the gender they're trying to look like. (Wtf?) I'm talking about people who look enough unlike either gender that they aren't welcome in either bathroom. Either because they're in the middle of a transition, or because the transitioning treatments just haven't worked very well on them, or just because the only appearance they're comfortable with is somewhat in the middle gender-wise.

[blythe spirit]

i dunno if that's how it works. my PCOS mentioned on other threads makes me produce extra testosterone but i'm as girly as all give out lol

Ahhhhhh then, your female spirit has outdone the testoserone. hehehe

[gloombunny]

Ahhhhhh then, your female spirit has outdone the testoserone. hehehe
"My femaleness is so intense that it has overpowered the trillions of lame-ass Y chromosomes that sheepishly hide inside the cells of my body. And my femininity is so relentless that it has survived over thirty years of male socialization and twenty years of testosterone poisoning. Some kinky-identified thrill-seekers may envision trans women as androgyne fuck fantasies, but that's only because they are too self-absorbed to appreciate how completely fucking female we are." - Julia Serano

One of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite writers. :)

[blythe spirit]

gloombunny, that is priceless.

[PropertyOfMasterJoey]

"My femaleness is so intense that it has overpowered the trillions of lame-ass Y chromosomes that sheepishly hide inside the cells of my body. And my femininity is so relentless that it has survived over thirty years of male socialization and twenty years of testosterone poisoning. Some kinky-identified thrill-seekers may envision trans women as androgyne fuck fantasies, but that's only because they are too self-absorbed to appreciate how completely fucking female we are." - Julia Serano

One of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite writers. :)

lol that's hilarious but yeah that's how it is with me. when Master and i do age play and i put on my pink frilly dress and pigtails a absolutely love it cuz you just can't get more girly than pink and frilly lol. i dance ballet, i love cooking and detest lawn work, my leash and collar for puppy play is pink :-)

[voxelectronica]

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.



While I was in Paris I was extremely uncomfortable with their bathroom...whatever. We went to this one restaurant and a man came down the stairs (to the bathroom area where we were waiting) while he was unbuttoning his pants.

And the urinal he was using was not closed off. I about died.

Just like you i don't mean to sound bitchy but this is because you're an uptight American.

I was raised in Europe and went back in my late teens. I'm used to bare breasts in stores selling bear. As Americans we are much happier with violence than we are with sex and it's daft. It isn't your fault it was how you were raised but it's still pointless. If i ever own my own business... unisex bathroom.

It's not just that i think that bathrooms should be integrated because of transgendered issues. I think that American's need to get over their ridiculous prudish behavior. I think this idea that so many people have about how everyone wants to see their no no bits is a leading factor in this "omg is that girl going to look at me in the bathroom?" crap.

[fantasien]

For me I pretty much don't identify in any type of way os male or female. I have always felt that everything is a social construct to sexual and gender expectations. I just observed that this was the problem of war and debate, and everything from conflict to discrimination in the workplace and in the family!

I do know though that I embrace the children of the days esspecially. I have so much love for these kids.

But for me and how I identify, I would say I am Genderqueer with a more lesbian switch orrientation. I have chosen that my body has already been pretty feminine and I'll bet my body has produced more estrogyn that other men. I really love my body, but I want to go on hormones and transition. I have always felt my other half ( breasts) were missing. I have the curvy hips that my sisters have too. So what would that say to you about my gender?

I have come to see sex and gender in a way where I independently understand gender to essentially be separate to sex and that in cases can be used in a sense of how a person identifies with their sexuality/ sex characteristics. So I don't know if this is making sense to you. Is it?

Basically, gender is fluid and I have chosen to say that I could go for any gender so long as the person is attractive to my liking. So I guess I would be more pansexual. Essentially I just want to see respect for diversity and to let people be who they are and to not automatically discriminate against people.

This is just my take.

[fantasien]

Just like you i don't mean to sound bitchy but this is because you're an uptight American.

I was raised in Europe and went back in my late teens. I'm used to bare breasts in stores selling bear. As Americans we are much happier with violence than we are with sex and it's daft. It isn't your fault it was how you were raised but it's still pointless. If i ever own my own business... unisex bathroom.

It's not just that i think that bathrooms should be integrated because of transgendered issues. I think that American's need to get over their ridiculous prudish behavior. I think this idea that so many people have about how everyone wants to see their no no bits is a leading factor in this "omg is that girl going to look at me in the bathroom?" crap.

I am right there with you dear! Join me!! And we will fight to the finish until we can accomplish bathroom intigration of the sexes.

[leo9]

For example, in the US today the majority would probably not define a real man as a male who wears lace, is well perfumed, wears make-up, a powdered wig of long hair and is well versed in romances and ballroom dancing.

In Britain a man who wears a powdered wig of long hair, a velvet robe and stockings is a High Court Judge, which just goes to show that the gender role of costume is a social construct.

I've been reading a book (The Sexual Rainbow, Olive Skene Johnson) which tries very hard to be an objective study of gender, but the snag that keeps tripping the author up is how to define "masculine" and "feminine" in human terms. You can study rats till the Grant Allocations come home, and if they mount other rats they're behaving in a "masculine" way, if they build nests they're "feminine"; but when you apply the same methods to humans you're trying to nail down smoke. Johnson admits herself that a lot of the behaviour defined as "masculine" or "feminine" in classic 1950s studies would today be just laughable.

Less than a hundred years ago, doctors seriously debated whether women could work in the professions without becoming infertile. We have come a long way from such a simplistic equation between gender role and sex, but perhaps we have to go a bit further and accept that body gender is only a small part of what makes a person what they are.

I'm physically male and happy to be so (though I admit to a sneaking envy of female orgasms.) I grew up in a household of females with a largely absent father, which according to old stereotypes should make me gay, or at least a male sub; I've tried both, but ended up primarily a het Dom. But I don't feel that kneeling at a woman's feet makes me "feminine", any more than beating her makes me "masculine".

[leo9]

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.


And in several countries in living memory, there were separate toilets for different races, and people would be shocked if they had to share one with someone of the right sex but the wrong colour.

Just a thought to ponder.

[Saheli]

Gender is something constructed by society, different from biological sex.

Though we cannot deny the physical embodiment of gender, I believe that most of the idea of gender is psychological. Gender therefore has two separate parts. And though both parts interrelate, they do not necessarily cause each other. I can be born female but identify with more "masculine" things. Like tusayan said, what one culture defines as feminine or masculine another might not. So those terms are cultural and not definitive.

I personally tend to think more like guys do. I get along better with males, and they seem to understand me better than females, which makes me believe that I must think more like males than females. But I can't REALLY say for sure, since I've only been inside my mind. The point I'm making is that perhaps I identify more easily with males because I've spent more time with them. If I could restart my life and only be around females, perhaps I would identify with them more...if transgendered, maybe them...if homosexual or bi or any other type of group imaginable, maybe I would identify more with them.

I wonder whether we identify out of a certain level of comfort: "I have spent most of my time around __________(insert group here) so I understand them more; having that understanding makes me understand them in turn, which brings about a closeness I don't feel toward any other group. Therefore, I identify best with ________."

I don't think this an absolute...everything in the world has exceptions. But I wonder how often it occurs that we identify with a group, attributing it to 'who we are' when actually the connection might be best explained by how much we have invested in that identification, rather than the connection being inherent based on attributes we are born with.

What do you guys think?