Why do many BDSM people look down on switches?

[thir]

Recently the question was put here whether being a switch makes for a better dom/sub.

I would think so in many cases, because you know a lot about what things feel like on the other side of the fence. But try to pose that question on your average bdsm list, and you are likely to get less than respectful answers..

I myself have pondered these comments:

If you both submit and dominate, then you cannot be really serious/devoted in either.

Or that a Dom or sub is born that way, and that is just the way it is.

Or that doms/subs never ever switch.

Or they get in the way of each other in a practical way.

I would be very interested in hearing what others have to say here, as I myself have some problems with getting things straightened out in my head.

[TheseDays]

Well some people (not me) believe that if you are a Dom you are a Dom and if you are a Sub you are a Sub.

I think it just comes down to the idea that, if someone "submits" to someone and gives up control then they must be in that "mindset" and I *guess* people feel if that is the case then they can't get into the "Dominant" mindset.

^-Ramblings by me and reflect my view on the above

[thir]

Well some people (not me) believe that if you are a Dom you are a Dom and if you are a Sub you are a Sub.

I think it just comes down to the idea that, if someone "submits" to someone and gives up control then they must be in that "mindset" and I *guess* people feel if that is the case then they can't get into the "Dominant" mindset.

^-Ramblings by me and reflect my view on the above

Yes, I guess so, but it is confusing, isn't it? I mean, how to explain us? What do they think happens?

Maybe it would be more practical to ask people here?
How far does your submission go - if you are submissive. Devotion? Need to please? Other?
How far does your need to dominate go - if you like to dominate. Own? 24/7? Bedroom? Some people but not others?

Are your needs different than above?

Things have changed for me, but in my time I have been far out on both ends: At some point really really wanted to be owned. At some later point really really wanted to own. And some overlap, which I found confusing.

I see people who shift effortlessly and naturally, and I can only hope to learn from that.

Comments?

[Pearlgem]

Thir, I don't have any experience of this but I found your question interesting and it made me wonder...

Could it have something to do with the extravagant claims you sometimes hear from both subs and doms about how they were born to their mindset, they've always knows they were definitely one or the other, they're sub or dom to their very heart and soul, it fulfils/completes them to their core, etc etc (which may be true but that's the orthodoxy it's so easy for any old sub or dom to tag themselves with) - so when there are those few who claim to be able to genuinely and meaningfully switch between the sacred engrained positions, it rather seems to undercut the deadly earnestness of these positions, and nobody likes to be 'cut down to size.'.

Am I on to something here, do you think?

[thir]

Thir, I don't have any experience of this but I found your question interesting and it made me wonder...

Could it have something to do with the extravagant claims you sometimes hear from both subs and doms about how they were born to their mindset, they've always knows they were definitely one or the other, they're sub or dom to their very heart and soul, it fulfils/completes them to their core, etc etc (which may be true but that's the orthodoxy it's so easy for any old sub or dom to tag themselves with) - so when there are those few who claim to be able to genuinely and meaningfully switch between the sacred engrained positions, it rather seems to undercut the deadly earnestness of these positions, and nobody likes to be 'cut down to size.'.

Am I on to something here, do you think?

I think you might well be, judging from the sometimes really wild protests from both sides when this question is discussed. And the fact that many questionaires (as in new members) do not have the option of 'switch'. And very few define themselves as such.

My personal experience from clubs and camps and the like is that it takes trust before anyone will talk about anything other than their 'official' stand.

But why???

[Pearlgem]

As a sub, I view the BDSM world though sub eyes. Maybe I attached that title onto myself too readily, but it seemed, and seems, to fit. If I see myself as sub first and foremost then that means I don't think like a dom. I can't. As least maybe I assume, since I call myself a sub, that I can't think like a dom.

I admit to the prejudice you complain about, Thir. I don't really understand switching. But I don't understand doms either, not the way they understand themselves. Being sub or dom is a bit, to my mind, like being either male or female. You can relate to a certain extent, be complementary to, the opposite, but you can never be the other. Except, witnessing the recent post on 'gender', I realise even gender perceptions are by no means as fixed as is widely supposed.

I would certainly appreciate understanding better what makes switches tick. Maybe they have to speak out, educate the rest of us out of our cosy sub/dom cocoons. Maybe it's all more role play than we give credit for. Maybe we all have 'switchability' lurking inside us .

[Timoty]

I think W/we A/all, Dominant, sub, slave, vanilla, liberal, conservative, shrink, etc, etc, etc, wish the world to be a very “clean” place. There is a comfort when things are as W/we wish them to be. Blue is blue. Green is green. And, O/our vegetables never get into O/our meat. Regretfully, the world is not such a place. I personally would not knowingly be Dom to a switch. Not because they have no “right” to be what they wish to be, nor, that it is My place to judge there choices, it is merely the fact that they will not completely be what I wish them to be for as long as I wish them to be that. My world is “cloudy” enough without adding another set of allusions in front of Me. So, it is My preference not to “use” them but not because there is something “wrong” with them. Secondly, I am secure in My Dominance and have no desire to be bottom to A/anyone. It is that same security that allows Me to shrug My shoulders and bless the day that W/we were all created differently and those differences are the spice of life.

Do not be confused. Take your bewilderment as an opportunity to explore life. Perhaps one day you will be One or the other but until that time take what life gives you and live it to the fullest. Worry not what O/others say, nor, how they want to apply their view of how the world should be. If the world was as “pure” as the “purists” wish it were you'd have something to worry about. Luckily, it isn't, and, rather than this “uncleanliness” threatening My personal belief system and personal security it only adds to My self-awareness and values..

[blythe spirit]

The only time I "look down" on a switch is when he/she is shorter than myself. *smiles*

[voxelectronica]

I'm pulling quotes out of this as I go so if you see yours great!

"As least maybe I assume, since I call myself a sub, that I can't think like a Dom."

I think this is the most brilliant thing I have red on this topic!

I have the word "slave" tattooed on my back. After YEARS of being a sub i decided that is were i was at. That's what i was. I was a sub, i wasn't going to change that and the idea of being Dom was ICKY and uncomfortable.

It took a set of circumstances to make me come to terms with the fact that i also liked being Dom. Though i still struggle with a lot of my original feelings of "Dom inadequacy" but i was able to hit the ground running as a Dom because of my previous sub life.

When i read this

"If you both submit and dominate, then you cannot be really serious/devoted in either.

Or that a Dom or sub is born that way, and that is just the way it is.

Or that doms/subs never ever switch.

Or they get in the way of each other in a practical way."

It reminds me very much of the ways that people think of gay relationships and honestly it's just not understanding.

I've been there. I can understand why people think this way but they're missing a few points. The truth is they lack the ability to comprehend another persons life style. They ask their perfectly valid questions (to them) but no one can make someone understand a feeling.

[thir]

I would certainly appreciate understanding better what makes switches tick. Maybe they have to speak out, educate the rest of us out of our cosy sub/dom cocoons. Maybe it's all more role play than we give credit for. Maybe we all have 'switchability' lurking inside us .

Thank you for having an open mind about this.

My own guess from too many years of experience is that I am sure that some are one-sided indeed, but that it may be a minority. I remember one camp I was on in which all but one single person described themselves as changing in some way or other. And I got to believe that it takes a safe forum to say these things, because so many one-siders are ready to pounce if you talk about switching.

Of course it doesn't matter at all how many or how few are doing what. What matters is that it would be nice if we all confined ourselves to defining ourselves, and letting others do the same. After all, only the person hirself knows what they are or aren't.

I have often thought that the rhetoric from some people about how you have to be one or the other points towards people who are most comfortable with a very clearly defined identity. And for that reason I am baffled that those same people cannot seem to understand that (some) switchers also want to identify themselves without 'helpful' advice , and that no one but we can do this.

In my case I have to find myself anew, and I am missing expressions for what I think I am. Labels can surely be a pest and cause much hurt feelings and heated debate, but they can also be very inspirational indeed and show the width and depth of the enormous area of bdsm.

[thir]

I think W/we A/all, Dominant, sub, slave, vanilla, liberal, conservative, shrink, etc, etc, etc, wish the world to be a very “clean” place. There is a comfort when things are as W/we wish them to be. Blue is blue. Green is green. And, O/our vegetables never get into O/our meat. Regretfully, the world is not such a place.

I am afraid I am not quite with you here -?



I personally would not knowingly be Dom to a switch. Not because they have no “right” to be what they wish to be, nor, that it is My place to judge there choices, it is merely the fact that they will not completely be what I wish them to be for as long as I wish them to be that.

I'm afraid I lost this one too..?


Do not be confused. Take your bewilderment as an opportunity to explore life.

I did not really explain this at first, but as I said later, the confusion on my part is due to both a cultural shock concerning the attitude towards switches and my personal situation, in which illness means that I have to find all over what I do now. Believe you me, I have explored in my time! <G>


Perhaps one day you will be One or the other

No offence intended, but do you thing you will change from Dom to sub in time? No?
Well, likewise I do not think I will go from being a switch to being a one-sider - it is what I Am.
What I need to find out is where I am within this field.


but until that time take what life gives you and live it to the fullest. Worry not what O/others say, nor, how they want to apply their view of how the world should be.

I do intend to enjoy myself. As for the other, the problem with that is that a a switch you tend to be a minority in a minority on lists and get into endless discussions about whether you are 'real' this or 'real' that or insincere, dabbling, confused, undecided or whatever.. The only way to avoid that is to not say you are a switch, which sucks too.

[leo9]

Thir, I don't have any experience of this but I found your question interesting and it made me wonder...

Could it have something to do with the extravagant claims you sometimes hear from both subs and doms about how they were born to their mindset, they've always knows they were definitely one or the other, they're sub or dom to their very heart and soul, it fulfils/completes them to their core, etc etc (which may be true but that's the orthodoxy it's so easy for any old sub or dom to tag themselves with) - so when there are those few who claim to be able to genuinely and meaningfully switch between the sacred engrained positions, it rather seems to undercut the deadly earnestness of these positions, and nobody likes to be 'cut down to size.'.

Am I on to something here, do you think?

Yes, I think you are. Some of the I-was-born-to-command Doms (it's usually men) feel undermined by the very idea that a Dom could also submit, so they have to distance themselves by insisting that anyone like that can't be a real Dom.

And for a living example, my ex-slave never wanted to hear about my exploits on the subby side of the street, because the very idea of her Master kneeling to someone made her feel like the ground was cracking under her. And when I discussed getting other slaves, the only important thing to her was that she shouldn't be expected to take any control of them: if there was going to be a chain of command, she couldn't bear to be anywhere but the bottom.

[sinderella]

Recently the question was put here whether being a switch makes for a better dom/sub.

I would think so in many cases, because you know a lot about what things feel like on the other side of the fence. But try to pose that question on your average bdsm list, and you are likely to get less than respectful answers..

I myself have pondered these comments:

If you both submit and dominate, then you cannot be really serious/devoted in either.

Or that a Dom or sub is born that way, and that is just the way it is.

Or that doms/subs never ever switch.

Or they get in the way of each other in a practical way.

I would be very interested in hearing what others have to say here, as I myself have some problems with getting things straightened out in my head.


i don't "look down" on switches, but i don't understand it either, unless when you switch it is for a different gender. i feel this way because a submissive is a submissive and it is ingrained in your personality, just as a Dom is a Dom...perhaps some people don't "take switches seriously" because in some minds, switching might seem like they are just in it for the fun of it and not for what D/s really means. i have sexual feelings for women occasionally, though i have never acted on them, but when i imagine playing with another woman, i am always in control and she is my little slut, so i would most likely take a dominant role when i do have sex with another woman someday. but i am a submissive through and through and could never place myself above my Dom in any way, and if i were to ever have sex with another woman, there is no way i would allow her to have any control over me whatsoever.

p.s. i just realized i am in a 'switch' forum...my apologies for commenting here...i was browsing through the forums and just posted without looking to see where i was.

[leo9]

Secondly, I am secure in My Dominance and have no desire to be bottom to A/anyone.
It may surprise you, but I'm secure in my dominance too (so much so that I don't need to emphasise it with capitals), which is why I don't feel it's undermined by the fact that I also can enjoy submitting.


Do not be confused. Take your bewilderment as an opportunity to explore life.
It's not clear if this was addressed to thir or to switches in general, but either way it reads as offensively patronising. Once again: being a switch does not mean being "confused".


Perhaps one day you will be One or the other but until that time take what life gives you and live it to the fullest.
Why ill-wish her (or us)? I'm sure every switch would agree that they would be diminished if they lost half their sexuality.

You might as well assure me that perhaps one day I'll recover from being bisexual and settle for either men or women.

[leo9]

It reminds me very much of the ways that people think of gay relationships and honestly it's just not understanding.

I have had just the same kind of hostility as a bisexual on gay lists, and the same kind of comments - "you haven't found what you really are," "you're really gay/str8 but you won't admit it." It seems that some people are deeply attached to their personal categories, to the point where they feel threatened by anyone who seems to suggest that those categories aren't as absolute as they want to believe.

Men for whom "being a man" is basic feel threatened by gays (and don't even mention TVs). Gays who care about "gay identity" feel threatened by bis. People whose indentity is bound up in their couple relationship feel threatened by polys. Doms who believe that "some are born to rule and some to serve" feel threatened by switches. And so on.

Rimmer: "I am what I am and that's all that I am." I think Descartes said that.
Kryten: No, Sir, that was Popeye.
Rimmer: I knew it was one of those philososphers.

[thir]

Well some people (not me) believe that if you are a Dom you are a Dom and if you are a Sub you are a Sub.

I think it just comes down to the idea that, if someone "submits" to someone and gives up control then they must be in that "mindset" and I *guess* people feel if that is the case then they can't get into the "Dominant" mindset.


<nods> I remember when I first felt the sub urges, I was 24 and it came out of the blue. I could not for the life of me understand what these ideas had to do with ME and the person I was! I struggled with it for more than a year, trying to think it all out. Then I realised that I couldn't. The only way was to try and see what happened. And I did, and it was good. I had had experiences with two very abusive situations (not bdsm related) and they left me devastated. And however much my bdsm situations looked like abuse, it wasn't. But I could not think my solution, I had to try it and then face the facts the experiment gave up.

Later came the dominance <G>

My point is, I believe that the people your mention here likewise try to think their understanding of Ds things. But sometimes you cannot. Sometimes you just have to accept facts. And the facts are, that understand it or not, some people do have both tangents.

I cannot claim to understand it myself, but I think it has to do with some sort of two-sides-of-a-coin. That Ds or BDSM is a whole, somehow.

[thir]

i don't "look down" on switches, but i don't understand it either, unless when you switch it is for a different gender.


It is my impression that switch or powershifter profiles are very very different from each other. Some I know do in fact shift according to gender. Others, however, may shift according to their relationships, or after which side people pull at..

Quite a few I know have been subs for years, and then, for some reason unaccountable to themselves, shift to dominance.


i feel this way because a submissive is a submissive and it is ingrained in your personality, just as a Dom is a Dom...[/]

Many people say this, but why? I do not doubt for a moment that this is how it is for you, but why should it be like that for everybody?

[QUOTE]perhaps some people don't "take switches seriously" because in some minds, switching might seem like they are just in it for the fun of it and not for what D/s really means.

Puuh, here I was confused..
OK, trying to sort my thoughts out it out a bit..First, there are many ways in BDSM, some are Ds orientated and some are not. It is a very wide field with lots and lots of variations, and none is 'the right way'. 'The Right Way' is individual, which is to say the way that makes that individual or these people happy.

It does not make sense otherwise, does it??? Or else, who gets to say which is right on behalf of all? And does it not matter whether or not they are happy?

It seems to me that if you break out of the straight and narrow ways of mainstream society, there is no point in running headlong into another set of rules set by others!

Secondly, what also confused me was that the 'just in it for the fun of it and not for what D/s really means' bit sounds like Ds is not fun! That isn't what you mean, is it??

Comments are welcome, I realize I am not quite with you here..


i have sexual feelings for women occasionally, though i have never acted on them, but when i imagine playing with another woman, i am always in control and she is my little slut, so i would most likely take a dominant role when i do have sex with another woman someday.
but i am a submissive through and through and could never place myself above my Dom in any way, and if i were to ever have sex with another woman, there is no way i would allow her to have any control over me whatsoever.

Does this mean that your submissiveness is related to gender? What I mean is, that you are sub to men but Dom to women? Or do you mean that dominating women doesn't count as being dominant?

Sounds like a familiar profile, but doesn't that clash with your concept of being sub through and through??

[LadyAznTiger13]

I have had just the same kind of hostility as a bisexual on gay lists, and the same kind of comments - "you haven't found what you really are," "you're really gay/str8 but you won't admit it." It seems that some people are deeply attached to their personal categories, to the point where they feel threatened by anyone who seems to suggest that those categories aren't as absolute as they want to believe.

I think that is the core of the problem.
I am Bi and I get looked down alot because of it, getting the whole ' u just haven't found ur side' BS. In the BDSM community, I get looked down for being a switch... same thing. I am a switch yes, but I will be the first person to tell you that I will never switch roles with one person... it makes it awkward, and i could never take that person seriously. Some people stroke my sub strings.. others make me want to stroke their sub strings. That's the end of it to me. I enjoy being dom and I enjoy being sub. Each of us have a calling that is more often than the other (for me its being a dom) but when all is said and done, we'll go to the other side willingly if the right person strikes us that way. I think that is the part ppl find hard to believe.
However, when you look at people's backgrounds and such, you come to realize that they too are switches and they just don't notice it. Or i seem to notice that trend among doms. There are alot who stepped into the world as subs who associated as doms later... so did they not enjoy that slavery before?
Since so many things are grey in the world, ppl find comfort in the black and white, slaves must be slaves, doms must be doms. Anything we say won't change those people who find that comfort enough to insult or point it out but... we know better, don't we? :blurp_ani

[shadowcast]

Good thread. I'm pretty new to everything, and am still in that stage of trying to figure out exactly where I fit in. I do have a dominant side, but find myself thinking and fantasizing about submission much more often, so I pretty much came to the conclusion that I'm more of a sub. I don't think my dom side is prevalent enough to consider myself a switch, but maybe. But I don't see why so many people think being a switch is so impossible. People automatically take dom/sub roles in everyday life, don't they? Just think about your circle of friends. Maybe when you get together with a particular person, they're the one who makes all the plans, say "we're going here, we're doing this," they have that personality, and you just say "Okay." You automatically fall into that role, they're in charge. Or maybe it's the other way around, and another of your friends is more shy and quiet, so you're the one who makes the plans and calls the shots. Or maybe you're both on the same page and plan the night evenly. I think everyone has those kinds of dynamics with people in their everyday life, so why would it be so impossible to have those same reactions in a BDSM sense? To feel more sub around a certain person, more dom around another, or even one way or the other around the same person, depending on mood and moment. It makes sense to me.

I think a lot of people just tend to view things in extremes. I mean really, what "is" a Dom/Domme? What "is" a sub? What "is" a switch? Shouldn't it be in how each person defines it for themselves? Everyone's different, why try to fit everyone under the same umbrella? For example, I want to start learning and exploring as a sub, but I'm not sure I'd want to be in a 24/7 D&S relationship. If I were dating someone, I'd want it to be part of our relationship, but not the entire basis of it. Others might dream of being an owned slave. There's nothing wrong with either, but I think a lot of people are more inclined to think of the owned slave as being a true sub rather than the person who might want to submit in the bedroom but not in every aspect of their lives. To them, their definition is a certain way, and things that don't fit don't count, like switching. And there's nothing wrong with their definition, they just need to be open-minded enough to accept that definitions that aren't exactly the same as theirs can be just as valid.

[lucy]

I've been reading through this thread and it kinda, yeah, left me sad. There's all this talking about us folks in the lifestyle are soooo openminded and welcoming to different points of views but when it comes down to actually act accordingly all that talking appears to be a lot of hipocrisy.

I think one of the reasons why switches are looked down upon may be that they are crossing the neatly drawn borders between subs and Doms and by doing that they "threaten" some peoples' image of themselves, or even their identity.

[Mothra!!!]

I've been reading through this thread and it kinda, yeah, left me sad. There's all this talking about us folks in the lifestyle are soooo openminded and welcoming to different points of views but when it comes down to actually act accordingly all that talking appears to be a lot of hipocrisy.

*sigh* I hear ya.


I think one of the reasons why switches are looked down upon may be that they are crossing the neatly drawn borders between subs and Doms and by doing that they "threaten" some peoples' image of themselves, or even their identity.

I'd say that if a person is truly secure in his/her/hir identity as a dom(me), sub, whatever, then the fact that other people do not categorize themselves in exactly the same way shouldn't make any difference. And one won't ever been viewed as the Most Dominant Dom of All or Subbiest Sub Ever by trying to negate the choices of others. I think that dom/sub tendencies, like gender identity and sexual orientation, can be far more fluid and less a matter of "either/or" than is commonly believed.

[sinderella]

It is my impression that switch or powershifter profiles are very very different from each other. Some I know do in fact shift according to gender. Others, however, may shift according to their relationships, or after which side people pull at..

Quite a few I know have been subs for years, and then, for some reason unaccountable to themselves, shift to dominance.

[QUOTE] i feel this way because a submissive is a submissive and it is ingrained in your personality, just as a Dom is a Dom...[/]

Many people say this, but why? I do not doubt for a moment that this is how it is for you, but why should it be like that for everybody?



Puuh, here I was confused..
OK, trying to sort my thoughts out it out a bit..First, there are many ways in BDSM, some are Ds orientated and some are not. It is a very wide field with lots and lots of variations, and none is 'the right way'. 'The Right Way' is individual, which is to say the way that makes that individual or these people happy.

It does not make sense otherwise, does it??? Or else, who gets to say which is right on behalf of all? And does it not matter whether or not they are happy?

It seems to me that if you break out of the straight and narrow ways of mainstream society, there is no point in running headlong into another set of rules set by others!

Secondly, what also confused me was that the 'just in it for the fun of it and not for what D/s really means' bit sounds like Ds is not fun! That isn't what you mean, is it??

Comments are welcome, I realize I am not quite with you here..



Does this mean that your submissiveness is related to gender? What I mean is, that you are sub to men but Dom to women? Or do you mean that dominating women doesn't count as being dominant?

Sounds like a familiar profile, but doesn't that clash with your concept of being sub through and through??

oh boy :)

sorry...i should have been clearer. i soOo hate to be misunderstood, or to misunderstand others. when i said i am submissive through and through, i guess i was only thinking about it in terms of my sexuality, which means, FOR ME, i could only love a man, never a woman, and could only submit to a man, and never a woman. i know this deep down inside. that is not to say i would ever look down on someone for 'being a switch', and i don't think i indicated that, but if i gave that impression, i certainly apologize.

of course dominating a woman 'counts' as being dominant, although i would make a terrible Domme because i would not be interested in nurturing my girl, i would just use her sexually and be done with her. of course, that was all hypothetically speaking, mind you, and who knows what anyone would do in any given situation.

also, i did not say it should be that way for everybody...i mean, take a look around here, people are into all kinds of interesting things and speaking for myself i certainly never judge anyone for their interests or 'kinks' just because they clash with mine or whathaveyou, so please don't think that from my comments.

i also agree there is no 'right way' or 'wrong way'...to each his own, whatever makes you happy, i have no problem with that. and here, again, i agree with you when you say:

there is no point in running headlong into another set of rules set by others!

iin my case, if i were to 'switch', i would be dominant with a woman before i would ever be dominant with a man. i have found that vanilla men are taken with me and they don't know why, and they want to control me because they sense my submissiveness somehow, although they don't know how to deal with it. i think it is ingrained in me, just as switching must be ingrained in people who switch. but i do not act dominant with men...to me for the most part, i instinctively already place men above me, especially Masters and Doms, absoultely just because of who they are. i think that is because the controlling, powerful facet of their personality tugs at the submissive, compliant facet of my personality and the more they take from me, the more i want to give to them, and i view women as equals, so to answer the question, IN MY CASE ONLY, yes, 'switching' would be gender-related.

i hope this helps...please continue to ask if i have not responded to your satisfaction...i don't want to make anyone feel bad :(

[leo9]

I've been reading through this thread and it kinda, yeah, left me sad. There's all this talking about us folks in the lifestyle are soooo openminded and welcoming to different points of views but when it comes down to actually act accordingly all that talking appears to be a lot of hipocrisy.

I think one of the reasons why switches are looked down upon may be that they are crossing the neatly drawn borders between subs and Doms and by doing that they "threaten" some peoples' image of themselves, or even their identity.

Yep, you've hit the thumb right on the nail there. And one of the ironic things is that, as shadowcast said, a lot of people come into the scene as subs and then discover a dom side {hugs thir}.

It really does look as if most BDSM people can go both ways, it's just that some strongly prefer one way over the other. So if this means we shouldn't make distinctions (which I don't believe, but for purposes of argument...) then logically, we should be discarding the categories "Dom" and "sub" and classing everyone as different kinds of switch. I don't advocate it myself, because all terms are useful so long as you remember that the map is not the territory, but it's more logical than discarding the category of "switch".

[thir]

[QUOTE=thir;752801]

i hope this helps...please continue to ask if i have not responded to your satisfaction...i don't want to make anyone feel bad :(

I wrote a long response which promptly disappeared, just as the last 5 I wrote. So until I have sorted this problem out, I can only and quickly say:
I do not feel bad! I just wanted to ask for clarification,being interested in what you say, and you very kindly took the time and bother to do so.
All is not clear - thanks! ;-)

[ghostgirl]

*sigh* I hear ya.



I'd say that if a person is truly secure in his/her/hir identity as a dom(me), sub, whatever, then the fact that other people do not categorize themselves in exactly the same way shouldn't make any difference.



At the risk of making myself instant persona non grata, why do we care so much? A personal level of comfort with my own needs/desires, feelings, and identity and the companionship of kindred spirits is, imo, far more likely to bring me happiness and fun than seeking the validation of others who can't relate to me.

...if a person is truly secure in his/her/hir identity as a switch....

[Mothra!!!]

At the risk of making myself instant persona non grata, why do we care so much? A personal level of comfort with my own needs/desires, feelings, and identity and the companionship of kindred spirits is, imo, far more likely to bring me happiness and fun than seeking the validation of others who can't relate to me.

...if a person is truly secure in his/her/hir identity as a switch....

Well, that's sorta my point too ;)

But unless I'm reading the entire thread wrong, it sounds like thir and others have been frustrated by trying to interact merely on a casual level with folks who can't even grasp the concept of being a switch. That gets tiresome after you've run into it enough times, especially when you're just looking for some friendly discussion on an email list or are trying to socialize at a munch. Having encountered similar attitudes in an entirely different context, I can sympathize.

But you're right: ultimately you've got to do what makes you happy and content and ignore the naysayers.

[ghostgirl]

Well, that's sorta my point too ;)



i didn't miss it, Mothra :)

[thir]

..unless I'm reading the entire thread wrong, it sounds like thir and others have been frustrated by trying to interact merely on a casual level with folks who can't even grasp the concept of being a switch. That gets tiresome after you've run into it enough times, especially when you're just looking for some friendly discussion on an email list or are trying to socialize at a munch. Having encountered similar attitudes in an entirely different context, I can sympathize.


My point exactly, and I am not used to that where I come from and so was seeking an explanation, plus I think that there is enough pressure on non-mainstream people that we should stick together. Thirdly, I do not like the tendency by some to be one-wayish and down talk other kinds of paths because, as I have seen and read, newcomers at times try desperately to fit into a box where they really do not belong, because they have been told that that is the way to be. It can be heart-wrenching to listen to and makes me furious.


But you're right: ultimately you've got to do what makes you happy and content and ignore the naysayers.

I agree, that is the way to do it. Never mind the self-appointed 'nobility' and dogma, let's be heretics ;-)

[sinderella]

[QUOTE=sinderella;754596]

I wrote a long response which promptly disappeared, just as the last 5 I wrote. So until I have sorted this problem out, I can only and quickly say:
I do not feel bad! I just wanted to ask for clarification,being interested in what you say, and you very kindly took the time and bother to do so.
All is not clear - thanks! ;-)

oh well, you can't say we didn't try... :)

[voxelectronica]

I have had just the same kind of hostility as a bisexual on gay lists, and the same kind of comments - "you haven't found what you really are," "you're really gay/str8 but you won't admit it." It seems that some people are deeply attached to their personal categories, to the point where they feel threatened by anyone who seems to suggest that those categories aren't as absolute as they want to believe.
.


God help you if you aren't gay or lesbian. if you are something in between you can (almost always) kiss that group of people goodbye. Feeling a little transgendered one day? Don't bring that up too much.

It's the same here. There are some vocal (and who knows how many non vocal) Doms who are talking about not wanting a switch sub. Honestly... I think it's fear.

I started switching because a lot of Dom's out there (and yes i have a lot of experience), suck. I had an idea in my head of perfection and very few (like maybe 2 in real life and 3 online) even came close to that. Doesn't this search or perfection make me any less submissive? No it doesn't. I want to please my Master and i want to be his perfect sub. I wasn't born his perfect sub so he should have the self discipline inside himself to train me to be more pleasing.

I WANT discipline and I found that I could instill that in me by training a sub. I could discipline myself because i wasn't going to let a sub down and i want her to grow as a person AND as my property.

This want in me for perfection doesn't make me less of a sub. It does make me a picky sub but I'm a picky Dom too. If you aren't going to submit to me and learn from me and grow for me then I don't want you. Likewise if you are a Dom who isn't going to teach me, discipline me and blow all of our plans because you wanted to get off, i don't want you.

If i submit to you, it's more than just worth it. I take pride in everything I do and know what to give and no i wont think about Domming in my off time... I'm yours. Just like i don't think of subbing when I'm with a sub that would be silly.

[Veralynne]

Question Vox-

Do you ever want to commit to one side, Dom or sub, for the rest of your life? I mean- let's say you found a Master or sub and wanted to marry them, be with them forever, etc., and your only partner. Is it more likely you'd want to be the Dom or sub in that relationship? And would you be able to choose? Would you be comfortable living the rest of your life not expressing one side of your sexuality? Or do you think you'd have to have a partner that is a switch to do that?

Sorry for all the questions- I just don't understand much but want to know more.

:-P

[voxelectronica]

Question Vox-

Do you ever want to commit to one side, Dom or sub, for the rest of your life?

want is a strong word. I do not WANT to commit but then again i don't like the idea of committing to one person.


I mean- let's say you found a Master or sub and wanted to marry them, be with them forever, etc., and your only partner. Is it more likely you'd want to be the Dom or sub in that relationship?

now when it comes down to WANT. That's different. I can think of people that I would WANT to be with in a monogamous relationship (or close to it). Some of those people are sub some are Dom. That doesn't bother me, i would be what they wanted because I want them. I want them for who they are and how they handle their kink.



And would you be able to choose? Would you be comfortable living the rest of your life not expressing one side of your sexuality? Or do you think you'd have to have a partner that is a switch to do that?

Well first of all I would only date a switch if they were a Dom or sub and i was the opposite. I don't switch the same person. Secondly I'm bi so this is a question I've had to deal with for some time but have finally been able to explain it (I hope).

My sexuality is more like a series of slots. So the gender slot can be filled with boy or girl (or really anything in between). BDSM slot can be filled with either submissive or Dominant roles. I'm not looking for both, if I'm "denied" one option i don't miss it as my slot is filled. I'm looking for perfection in those roles though. I'm not looking for some ugly boy or girl they have to be pretty. I'm not looking for someone who likes to get slapped around in bed. I'm looking for someone who will be there on their knees, naked, looking down when I walk through the door OR a Dom who will be just as diligent as i am.

Just because I'm up for anything doesn't mean I want everything all at once.


Sorry for all the questions- I just don't understand much but want to know more.

:-P

don't worry about it.

[thir]

[QUOTE=thir;755001]

oh well, you can't say we didn't try... :)

Blast! I had to hurry so much before everything disappeared (doen anyone else have this problem??) that I got it wrong.

I meant to say that everything is clear, thanks.

Sorry about the confusion - must be off..

[voxelectronica]

want is a strong word. I do not WANT to commit but then again i don't like the idea of committing to one person.

of course i meant "commit" is a strong word and it is... though i can do it, it takes some serious inspiration.

[Ninva]

In everything else in my life, I walk the middle of the road and dare people on either side to hit me - I suppose it's only right to do it in power exchange as well...

The bisexual, social liberal, fiscal conservative, libertarian leaning objectivist point of view is quite unpopular, and it seems I am adding a fresh new layer of unpopularness to my reality.

*shrug* I admit it; I am in life for the laughs... This is gonna be fun! And, as long as Impailer (my owner) is happy no one else's opinions matter at all.

[voxelectronica]

The bisexual, social liberal, fiscal conservative, libertarian leaning objectivist point of view is quite unpopular, and it seems I am adding a fresh new layer of unpopularness to my reality.


Ha! I'm the same! we should make a club!

[Ninva]

Apparently there's only two of us...

It makes for an EXCLUSIVE club!

[SauvagePouline]

but if its a club then you're CONFORMING to something... lol

I mean that in all teasing btw, i enjoy refusing to conform as well :-D

All joking aside,

I've been following this thread, and am surprised to see that SO many switches have had poor experiences with Doms and/or subs. I've had the gays-judging-bis experiences. Especially as a female college student bisexual (in my area) since the stereotype is you're just doing it to be cool/sexy etc. Lots of comments like "Is no one straight anymore???"

But I thought switching made lots of sense. There isn't a so-called "natural" orientation for that, and I can totally understand feeling differently about different people. After all, sub's don't feel subby for every person they meet. It reminds me of that K something scale for sexuality, where almost no one is 0,5 or 10 (completely straight, bi or gay). It seems logical that D/s would be the same way?

This is interesting food for thought, and also very sad.

[guest010609]

Recently the question was put here whether being a switch makes for a better dom/sub.

I would think so in many cases, because you know a lot about what things feel like on the other side of the fence. But try to pose that question on your average bdsm list, and you are likely to get less than respectful answers..

I myself have pondered these comments:

If you both submit and dominate, then you cannot be really serious/devoted in either.

Or that a Dom or sub is born that way, and that is just the way it is.

Or that doms/subs never ever switch.

Or they get in the way of each other in a practical way.

I would be very interested in hearing what others have to say here, as I myself have some problems with getting things straightened out in my head.

My answer to this question is that in my experience dominance and submission- especially slavery do get in the way of each other in a practical way. If you are interested in exactly why I feel that way, please see my post here in the switch forum, in the thread "Permission to Switch". It seems silly to repeat the whole story that I just typed out 10 mins ago. Bottom line is that I am *naturally* a switch- meaning that it is natural for me to wish to submit to a man and dominate women. However, in my case (and I suspect in other people's situations too) switching is as bad for me as a drug or alcohol addiction would be. In my view (regarding myself) switching is a very bad addiction or habit, which I can control with the right support system. For me, switching must be avoided at all cost. I don't look down on switches but I do think that it is a very bad idea- with the exception of bedroom only s&m players who just enjoy switching with each other in play and have no desire for 24/7, TPE etc. I guess I view many switches as misguided and perhaps as wrestling with emotional issues that could be better solved by total abstinance from switching.

[Ninva]

Here's the part that I really can't understand - Why are we, as humans, polarized?

I'm simply taking the middle path between every extreme because, well, I'm mediocre, er, moderate, er, middle-of-the-road. You know, wishy-washy... I'm as opposed to the outliers as they are to me, and probably more so, as I believe I have natural, mathematical laws on my side here!

By the law of averages, shouldn't our positions on most things be more bell shaped and less polarized?

Then again, perhaps the outliers are actually afraid of us in some way - a perfect sub who knows how to hurt people probably just doesn't sit well with some sensibilities. Somewhere in the back of their mind they realize that they aren't playing with a real doormat, but something with teeth.

Now, my owner thinks it's cool. He thinks I should be able to defend my own honor in case any man might be foolish enough to touch his property. And, the man is absolutely dead serious about it.

I, and anyone who accompanies me anywhere, must be willing to fight tooth and nail to protect his wife.

TONS of rules about where I can go, when, with whom, and how well armed I'm expected to be. Rarely, I can get by with my "necklace," a single knuckle on a spiked bar - a toy somewhere between a roll of quarters, a steel shank, and brass knuckles. Thats, like, a jog or something - walking distance. Usually, I go with him, and he's armed to the teeth in addition to being a grizzly. When I go off the farm with someone else, I have a toter's permit and a .22 that folds up into a "phone."

gotta run, my bear calls....

[guest010609]

Lol, ninva... I understand what you mean about your Owner expecting you to be able to defend yourself and not put yourself at risk. My Master has shaped me into the person that i am... bitchy, verbose, domineering (except with him, of course), pushy, abrasive and in general very capable of being a very strong, capable person. Additionally, he expects me to fight my ass off if I were ever to be phsyically attacked and he weren't there. He never wanted a simpering, whiney little syncophant of a slave who could not take care of herself and stand up for herself, her beliefs and yes, even to him at the times that he needs to be stood up to. On the other hand, these traits do not (to me) equate with switching. Switching is a very different dynamic within our own heads as much as it is with those who we might play with, own or be owned by. You know... I can't really remember what exactly my point was here... but I'm not about to just erase the post after this much effort lol....hopefully someone can sort out my scattered thoughts and get something out of my words. :)

[Pearlgem]

But I thought switching made lots of sense. There isn't a so-called "natural" orientation for that, and I can totally understand feeling differently about different people. After all, sub's don't feel subby for every person they meet.

Hmm, I'm not a switch; I've identified myself as sub and am comfortable with that, but your remark here, sp, really made me think. Most, if not all, of the subs on here would probably agree with it. I certainly can. I have my usual, everyday behaviour, and then my sub yearnings for one man and one man only. So at least I travel along the spectrum of 'normal' to sub.
I have been following the 'what the hell is switching all about and why do they hate us' threads with interest, trying to understand what at first seems quite alien to me. But perhaps it's just that I haven't allowed myself to see my own (theoretical) possibilities.

To the switches out there, is sp's a useful example to help understand the switching mindset?

[voxelectronica]

but if its a club then you're CONFORMING to something... lol

I mean that in all teasing btw, i enjoy refusing to conform as well :-D


I hate it! I hate being different. I wish i could be like everyone else even if it was pretending. I can't even do that right. I wish i was straight or gay. I wish i was Dom or sub. I wish i was one or the other. Some days I even wish i was a democrat so people wouldn't hate me on site.

[Ninva]

*giggle* LIAR! I can't believe that some part of you doesn't love the firm knowledge that you are you. Sure, you probably spend more time hiding yourself than you like, but when you reveal yourself, the honesty is ample reward!

[voxelectronica]

*giggle* LIAR! I can't believe that some part of you doesn't love the firm knowledge that you are you. Sure, you probably spend more time hiding yourself than you like, but when you reveal yourself, the honesty is ample reward!

NO WAY!

I love being me sure. I totally love myself. I'm awesome incarnate if you ask me but no one gets me. No one suspends their preconceived ideas of one of the things I am to find out about another thing i am and how they work together.

"oh you're a republican who is pro life then you are obviously one of those religious people who want to take over America."

"oh you're a satanist? well then obviously you are a devil worshiper"

"oh you're bi well then you're just greedy and can't make up your mind"...

The worse is when i get it out that I'm gay and gender queer and a republican... then I'm "self loathing" or "stupid and confused".

No I'd rather be normal and fit into a box so people wouldn't get mad at *me* for their own stupidity. It's rather boring and I hate it.

[Flaming_Redhead]

BDSM as we know it today evolved from protocol established by what is commonly referred to as the Old Guard which consisted of gay World War II veterans. Until the Old Guard, S&M was practiced in private or in brothels. There was no established set of rules. The gay leathermen utilized their military experience and organized groups with dress codes and etiquette. It was all very formal and very ritualized. To join their clubs, you had to demonstrate a sincere interest in and a great deal of dedication to becoming involved in S&M, either as a top or a bottom. Tops and bottoms typically apprenticed to the more experienced players. Switches were not considered to be serious players because they lacked the dedication necessary to commit to either role.

Eventually, heterosexuals and lesbians got wind of the clubs and wanted to join in order to learn and participate. This generation is referred to as Old School. They changed some of the protocol to be less militant, but the clubs were still exclusive in that only "serious" people need apply. While the Old Guard was into "rough" sex, the AIDS epidemic necessitated safer play, so the motto "safe, sane, and consensual" was coined.

With the introduction of the Internet came an influx of new people from the mildly curious to the adventurous kinkster. Munches and clubs became all inclusive. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing. However, people new to BDSM tend to believe that just because they are "kinky" they should be accepted. The acronym BDSM stands for bondage, discipline, dominance, submission, sadism, and masochism. There is such a wide variety of kink contained in those 4 small letters that being kinky isn't enough to bring a community together. That's why there tend to be subgroups for dominatrices, masters and slaves, Goreans, et al.

Just because someone decides you're incompatible because you label yourself a switch doesn't always mean they're insecure or closed minded. They just know what they want. I'm a switch who is mostly submissive, and I want my dominant to be only that. I don't want a switch for the same reason many don't. I need my dominant to be very...dominant. I don't want to switch with him because it would totally ruin the dynamic for me, and I don't want to share him with a dominatrix because I don't want anyone having that level of control and intimacy with my man. I also don't want to make him choose and risk being unfulfilled. As for myself, I can live with whatever boundaries are set for me, but there are many dominants who won't take the risk. The people who make comments about switches being "fake" are usually Old School style BDSMers or just repeating what they've always heard or believed out of ignorance. There isn't anything wrong with having one true way or being open minded as long as you aren't trying to shove your way down anybody else's throat, and that goes for all...poly, monog, bi, straight, gay, Old School, The Next Generation, etc.

[mindgames]

Recently the question was put here whether being a switch makes for a better dom/sub.

I would think so in many cases, because you know a lot about what things feel like on the other side of the fence. But try to pose that question on your average bdsm list, and you are likely to get less than respectful answers..

I myself have pondered these comments:

If you both submit and dominate, then you cannot be really serious/devoted in either.

Or that a Dom or sub is born that way, and that is just the way it is.

Or that doms/subs never ever switch.

Or they get in the way of each other in a practical way.

I would be very interested in hearing what others have to say here, as I myself have some problems with getting things straightened out in my head.


I myself am a switch and I have never know myself to be looked down upon.
Your pondered comments, are valid, but I myself have never seen the problem. Previous Masters and submissives have found me to their satisfaction. When I with a My Master, I am submissive, and I stay that way. When with my slave, I am Mistress, and dominate. :)

[Ninva]

There isn't anything wrong with having one true way or being open minded as long as you aren't trying to shove your way down anybody else's throat, and that goes for all...poly, monog, bi, straight, gay, Old School, The Next Generation, etc.

Very nicely said, and thank you!

[denuseri]

BDSM as we know it today evolved from protocol established by what is commonly referred to as the Old Guard which consisted of gay World War II veterans. Until the Old Guard, S&M was practiced in private or in brothels. There was no established set of rules. The gay leathermen utilized their military experience and organized groups with dress codes and etiquette. It was all very formal and very ritualized. To join their clubs, you had to demonstrate a sincere interest in and a great deal of dedication to becoming involved in S&M, either as a top or a bottom. Tops and bottoms typically apprenticed to the more experienced players. Switches were not considered to be serious players because they lacked the dedication necessary to commit to either role.

Eventually, heterosexuals and lesbians got wind of the clubs and wanted to join in order to learn and participate. This generation is referred to as Old School. They changed some of the protocol to be less militant, but the clubs were still exclusive in that only "serious" people need apply. While the Old Guard was into "rough" sex, the AIDS epidemic necessitated safer play, so the motto "safe, sane, and consensual" was coined.

With the introduction of the Internet came an influx of new people from the mildly curious to the adventurous kinkster. Munches and clubs became all inclusive. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing. However, people new to BDSM tend to believe that just because they are "kinky" they should be accepted. The acronym BDSM stands for bondage, discipline, dominance, submission, sadism, and masochism. There is such a wide variety of kink contained in those 4 small letters that being kinky isn't enough to bring a community together. That's why there tend to be subgroups for dominatrices, masters and slaves, Goreans, et al.

Just because someone decides you're incompatible because you label yourself a switch doesn't always mean they're insecure or closed minded. They just know what they want. I'm a switch who is mostly submissive, and I want my dominant to be only that. I don't want a switch for the same reason many don't. I need my dominant to be very...dominant. I don't want to switch with him because it would totally ruin the dynamic for me, and I don't want to share him with a dominatrix because I don't want anyone having that level of control and intimacy with my man. I also don't want to make him choose and risk being unfulfilled. As for myself, I can live with whatever boundaries are set for me, but there are many dominants who won't take the risk. The people who make comments about switches being "fake" are usually Old School style BDSMers or just repeating what they've always heard or believed out of ignorance. There isn't anything wrong with having one true way or being open minded as long as you aren't trying to shove your way down anybody else's throat, and that goes for all...poly, monog, bi, straight, gay, Old School, The Next Generation, etc.


Thank You so much for saying what so needed to be said sisa !!!!

[craven]

hmmm i am still not sure that people do look down on switches, i certainly dont and dont think that others have to me, or of they have i have never noticed it

the jury as they say is most certainly still out................

[Pearlgem]

Reminds me of an old sketch. There are three persons in a row, middle one speaks first....

'I am a submissive.' (looks right) 'I look down on switches.' (looks left) 'But I look up to Dominants.'...

[JamesMDenton]

I know I'm a bit late to the thread, but I'm pretty new here, and this subject is one of the main reasons that I've avoided the "Scene". A brief background before I explain my thoughts.

I got into BDSM in a Dominant role, and for quite a while it stayed that way, until she asked if she could "try" being the Dom, and being pretty open to trying new things, as a reward, I let her. And it was a completely new experience. I really enjoyed it, but in a completely different way than Domming. I wouldn't even say the two are interchangeable, because to me it's as unique as between hunger and thirst. The difference being I wouldn't consider either more necessary than the other.

The argument could be made that I was never truly subbing due to it being more of a 'reward', but I disagree, it was just a different way of being intimate.

That said, I would probably only consider switching with the same person if it was a loving committed relationship. Otherwise I don't think I'd even have the desire to switch it up.

In addition, I can't stress enough how much switching has made me "better" at the opposing role. It gives you a completely new understanding, and I would feel more confident with a sub or a Dom if I knew they had at least tried the other way.

That's what I've got right now, hopefully it makes sense, I've been up entirely too long.

- J

[thir]

Sorry to come a little late back to this..real life getting in the way of the pc ;-)


BDSM as we know it today evolved from protocol established by what is commonly referred to as the Old Guard which consisted of gay World War II veterans. Until the Old Guard, S&M was practiced in private or in brothels. There was no established set of rules. The gay leathermen utilized their military experience and organized groups with dress codes and etiquette. It was all very formal and very ritualized. To join their clubs, you had to demonstrate a sincere interest in and a great deal of dedication to becoming involved in S&M, either as a top or a bottom. Tops and bottoms typically apprenticed to the more experienced players. Switches were not considered to be serious players because they lacked the dedication necessary to commit to either role.

Nods - I have read that this is how it went in US. But in other countries things were different. Gay men were there first, but the rest followed soon after, and we never had any old school history. I would like to know how it went in the Netherlands as well, for instance, they have had a thriving free sexual culture of any kind for a long time.


With the introduction of the Internet came an influx of new people from the mildly curious to the adventurous kinkster. Munches and clubs became all inclusive. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing. However, people new to BDSM tend to believe that just because they are "kinky" they should be accepted. The acronym BDSM stands for bondage, discipline, dominance, submission, sadism, and masochism. There is such a wide variety of kink contained in those 4 small letters that being kinky isn't enough to bring a community together. That's why there tend to be subgroups for dominatrices, masters and slaves, Goreans, et al.

This paragraph I do not understand..? could you elaborate a bit?


Just because someone decides you're incompatible because you label yourself a switch doesn't always mean they're insecure or closed minded. They just know what they want.

True.



The people who make comments about switches being "fake" are usually Old School style BDSMers or just repeating what they've always heard or believed out of ignorance.

That is also my impression.


There isn't anything wrong with having one true way or being open minded as long as you aren't trying to shove your way down anybody else's throat, and that goes for all...poly, monog, bi, straight, gay, Old School, The Next Generation, etc.

Very true!
Only so many do in fact try to shove their way down your throat..

[thir]

I know I'm a bit late to the thread,

No problem, many threads go on for a long time. Besides, we cannot all sit at the pc 24/7 ;-0



but I'm pretty new here, and this subject is one of the main reasons that I've avoided the "Scene". A brief background before I explain my thoughts.

Would you like to elaborate a bit on that?


In addition, I can't stress enough how much switching has made me "better" at the opposing role. It gives you a completely new understanding, and I would feel more confident with a sub or a Dom if I knew they had at least tried the other way.

That's what I've got right now, hopefully it makes sense, I've been up entirely too long.

Certainly it does, many of us have had the same kind of experience.

I hope you feel welcome here, and want to post more.

[voxelectronica]

Reminds me of an old sketch. There are three persons in a row, middle one speaks first....

'I am a submissive.' (looks right) 'I look down on switches.' (looks left) 'But I look up to Dominants.'...

that was awesome!

[Flaming_Redhead]

This paragraph I do not understand..? could you elaborate a bit?

People being the social creatures that they are, they want to fit in somewhere. The problem is that once everyone claiming to be kinky was allowed entry into the clubs there began to be cliques and in-fighting. You had Old School butting heads with The Next Generation who didn't want to be told how they had to do things. The fact is that people like to associate with others of a similar mindset, and once diversity was achieved...well....it actually became harder for groups to maintain any sort of togetherness.

For example, in my own life, if my kinky friends and I formed a group, it would be hard to find topics that applied to all of us and didn't end up in an argument. My friend since high school and her husband are bedroom kinksters. To her, it's all fun and games. She is appalled, at times, that I, a lifestyler, prefer to actually be controlled. In her own words, my relationship is unhealthy. On the other hand, I find her "pretending" in the bedroom to be shallow and meaningless. Then, there's the couple who are into swinging with a little bit of kink thrown in. The wife is the dominant partner. She is also somewhat appalled that I'd prefer to let a man be in control. In her words, I'm a grown woman who can do as I please, and if he doesn't like it...tough shit. Thankfully, our friendships aren't based on kink. We can accept that we have different beliefs, but it's much harder for strangers to walk into a group of people and find acceptance or be accepting of others. It's just human nature.

[orchidsoul]

This is surely an interesting thread.

The only way I can describe being a switch is that of someone who chooses love regardless of gender. They don't identify as gay/lesbian, straight or even bi for that matter. They identify with people are people, and certain people make them want to fall in love regardless of gender.

For me, there are some people who have completely beckoned my submission. And others, my dominance. It's really as simple as that. I've never switched with the same person as it tends to be one or the other for me. I lean more to the submissive side generally, but as a submissive... I don't much identify with heavier masochism. However, my dominant mind is quite sadistic. Just tossing another layer of confusion :)

I'm a fairly middle of the road type person as well, and perhaps that's why I lean both ways in this regard. I sort of don't understand what IS so difficult to understand about being a switch? Hopefully we've all helped explain it a bit better.

Like was pointed out, there's few submissives who would declare everyone beckons their submissive side. Just because you may not act out dominance in a sexual or d/s fashion is not necessarily relevant, imo. You're still not submissive around certain people. It's the same really. We've just added an intimate layer.

[Arria]

I do not look down on switchers, in general. There was a time when a few switches were around in the scene, and that was fine with me (I am not much of a scene person, but hubby is).

What I find aggravating is the new trend (at least hereabouts, in Germany), that all of a sudden the majority of people seem to think EVERYBODY is basically a switch, and they try and force that opinion unto others like me, who has not a switching bone in her body.
They are extremely patronizing, and they (not that I had asked their opinion) run around, announcing everyone who does not switch is "suppressing" that other half, and has a problem, and should try it, or rather, the partner one is with should let his partner try it.
It´s crackbrained. And I do not believe half of the switches who run around nowadays are for real.
A huge load of those people I met were sub men who found no Domme, and thought it a smart move to pretend to be a switch (who just happens to need being dominated in 99 out of a 100 times in upcoming play scenes). Duhhh.

I personally am not a switch and cannot begin to understand what it must be like. I think it must be confusing in a relationship - how do they go about deciding who is the top and who the bottom all the time?

Hubby spoke with some switches, and they explained that their "state" depends on the person they are with - some people evoke their dominance, others evoke their submission, so it´s not a problem in a relationship as things are settled.

But even if it is like that, I think it must be hard to be fulfilled in a relationship where you get only half of what you want.
The idea of playing outside the relationship is not an option for everyone, either (it certainly wouldn´t be ok for me).

[Laila]

I don't think its just switches - looking down on people seems to be the scene's favourite form of entertainment.

Just today in a random chat conversation I got laughed at and patronized for being an exclusive sub. Like I don't take my submission seriously.

Like Arria, I have trouble understanding how to be a switch because I could never never be dominant but then I can't understand how to be dominant either.

[Flaming_Redhead]

What I find aggravating is the new trend (at least hereabouts, in Germany), that all of a sudden the majority of people seem to think EVERYBODY is basically a switch, and they try and force that opinion unto others like me, who has not a switching bone in her body.
They are extremely patronizing, and they (not that I had asked their opinion) run around, announcing everyone who does not switch is "suppressing" that other half, and has a problem, and should try it, or rather, the partner one is with should let his partner try it.
It´s crackbrained. And I do not believe half of the switches who run around nowadays are for real.

It's happening here, too. However, I have been on the receiving end of "you aren't really a switch." I find it also to be extremely patronizing to be called "a sub who likes to top." There has been only one person I wanted to dominate on a full-time basis, but she only wanted to play. As soon as I found that out, I had no interest in topping her anymore, even though I top others I have no interest in dominating full-time. *shrugs* With her, I wanted it all or nothing.

My switching is based on who I'm with, and you're right about part of you being unfulfilled at times. It all comes down to what you need the most. I can give up topping to be with a dom who doesn't allow playing outside. I can't give up being submissive to be a dom full-time.

[Diablo]

It may have something to do with a complete top or bottom not being able to understand being able to switch. And any insult may be unintentional. I could never submit so switching seems alien to me. There is nothing wrong with it just not my cup of tea.

[thir]

Thanks for making it clearer.


[B]People being the social creatures that they are, they want to fit in somewhere. The problem is that once everyone claiming to be kinky was allowed entry into the clubs there began to be cliques and in-fighting. You had Old School butting heads with The Next Generation who didn't want to be told how they had to do things. The fact is that people like to associate with others of a similar mindset, and once diversity was achieved...well....it actually became harder for groups to maintain any sort of togetherness.

Oh woe for tolerance and diversity!!
But you do have a way with words and I do recognize the situation - even among people who try hard not to. Is there no hope for us???


My friend since high school and her husband are bedroom kinksters. To her, it's all fun and games. She is appalled, at times, that I, a lifestyler, prefer to actually be controlled. In her own words, my relationship is unhealthy. On the other hand, I find her "pretending" in the bedroom to be shallow and meaningless.

That, too, sounds awfully familiar..




Well then we just have to get to know each other better - maybe there is hope.

:wave:

[thir]

What I find aggravating is the new trend (at least hereabouts, in Germany), that all of a sudden the majority of people seem to think EVERYBODY is basically a switch, and they try and force that opinion unto others like me, who has not a switching bone in her body.
They are extremely patronizing, and they (not that I had asked their opinion) run around, announcing everyone who does not switch is "suppressing" that other half, and has a problem, and should try it, or rather, the partner one is with should let his partner try it.

ROTFWL

- same problem, with the pendulum swung the other way round.

Sorry, I have taken So much shit for being Switch I could not help feeling - hmm... let's move on here..

Obviously no one wants to be patronized or told what they are really like if only they could see it..and the problem remains the same.

Only solution I can see is to let people damn well decide for themselves what they are and what they want. They are the only ones who know.


And I do not believe half of the switches who run around nowadays are for real.
<grin>


I think it must be hard to be fulfilled in a relationship where you get only half of what you want.
The idea of playing outside the relationship is not an option for everyone, either (it certainly wouldn´t be ok for me).

It seems to me that many here are doing very well, I do not think you need worry. To me it has been a revelation to meet so many and happy switches, and my first reaction after coming here was a feeling of getting my head above water and inhaling a huge mouthful of fresh air after long suffocation. I was high as a kite for weeks!
THANK YOU for being here, guys :-))))))))))))))))))))))

In my situation I normally do not shift power relations with the same partners for the same reason already said: Some people pull at one side, and some at the other. I have two committed relationships (poly), and when I get better I will get my subs and oh how I look forward to that. Others have other solutions.

My sub side is the most difficult by far, while my dominant side comes easily. But I can sub 100% to the right person, and my previous subs were in no doubt that I am 100% dominant. I know it is hard to grasp, but nevertheless that is how it is.

[Spankmeplease2009]

I think it is like anything else, there are always going to be some people who think things should be a certain way and if it is not that way, then they think it is fake or wrong or something. I have always thought people who think that way are not worth getting mad over.

It also may just be that some people are so involved with being either a top or a bottom that switching seems unthinkable to them. It may not be that they are intentionally being insulting or anything of that sort.

[Apexsandman]

This question (the one the thread is all about) comes up a lot. For me, anyway, I switch because I want to be able to experience the full range of erotic possibilities. I enjoy sexual power exchange in too many and varied ways to want to be limited to one role only. The saying used to be "your kink is ok." Well, my kink tends not to stay put. I'm ok with that, whether others are or not, but it does complicate finding the "right" partner to be with.

[leo9]

Well, my kink tends not to stay put. I'm ok with that, whether others are or not, but it does complicate finding the "right" partner to be with.

In my purely personal opinion, being a serious switch, like being fully bisexual, almost necessarily implies some kind of polyamory. You might be lucky enough to find someone who can be everthing you need, but your chances are an order of magnitude better if you don't try to get it all at the one shop.

For me, being able to sub is not the same as needing to: it's a possibility I'm aware of, something that might happen one day if I should meet someone who pulls at that side of my nature. But it's not an unfulfilled need, the way I feel I'm missing something if I don't get to beat and rape a man now and then.

[Spanxyou]

Yes, I guess so, but it is confusing, isn't it? I mean, how to explain us? What do they think happens?

Maybe it would be more practical to ask people here?
How far does your submission go - if you are submissive. Devotion? Need to please? Other?
How far does your need to dominate go - if you like to dominate. Own? 24/7? Bedroom? Some people but not others?

Are your needs different than above?

Things have changed for me, but in my time I have been far out on both ends: At some point really really wanted to be owned. At some later point really really wanted to own. And some overlap, which I found confusing.

I see people who shift effortlessly and naturally, and I can only hope to learn from that.

Comments?

Have you never had a friend that you shared your intimate thoughts with,only to find out that your friend told others what you said and then you got pissed off and started giving your friend shit.Well i see being a switch like that.First you have to have the kind of personality that can change from hot to cold and back to hot again in quick time.Then you can easily be spanked,get pissed of because your partner went to the borderline of your tolerance.Then jump into the roll of dom and give it back.I am a newbe but i feel that some people like to stay in the roll of Dom or submissive,because they pride them self's with being so good at the roll they play.That it would shake their belief in them self's as a Dom or Submissive,to be play the other roll.I think a good Switch can better play the roll of Dom and sub,because they are able to understand what its like to be on the other side of the fence.In A/A the best counselors are those who have been a alcoholic,because they know the suffering involved first hand.I think if you close your mind into being one way or the other.Then you will never really be able to understand the roll you play.Its so simple.Most mean people are mean because someone was mean to them.So you learn your roll from others who were like that to you,so there for a Dom was a sub who then rebelled and became a Dom.How ever most Subs have a personality type that reflects their lives as the person who everyone else dumps on.So its easy to do what you know and there are people who dominate others in the real world.Who feel bad about that,so they want to be Dominated.A good Switch is a better Dom and Sub than either singularly.

[GreyWolf-25]

I suppose it's for the same reasons that bisexuals are not accepted among the gay and lesbian community.

[TheLimey]

An interesting discussion, and one that led me back a few years.

Growing up my fantasies were on the sub side.if they involved BDSM at all. however, in the first long relationship I had, we both switched.

However, it wasn't as satisfying for me to sub, so that slowly went to full dom.

I've switched once since then, and didn't enjoy it at all, and now I ID as Dom.

I can't see myself subbing for anyone now. However, I wouldn't look down on someone for being a switch. Are we really that broad and widespread a church that we can split like that?

[Sheling]

I've skimmed this thread (It's LONG and I'm time-pressed!) so my apologies in advance if I reiterate points already made.

I am not new to the concept of bondage, power-play, control and all that - most of my fantasies since almost childhood have involved either doing or having done to me something that involves something from those categories. Very much as with the moment I finally understood that I was bisexual, there was no grand epiphany for me; no anxiety or existential crisis as I struggle to redefine myself. It was simply a case of my thinking "Ooooh, that's what that is!" and carrying on.

My first experience came with a friend I was madly attracted to online. Now I read back the transcripts it becomes apparent that we'd been circling (ever-so-coolly) toward intimacy almost form the start. However, while I'd found sites like hogtied.com and stuff fascinating, I'd never pictured myself in those ropes. Until DTB (Dom to be) turned up. Pretty fast we were in an online partnership which I explored (and still explore) to the full. But more than that, it's about the dynamic; the trust at the time (I know... online shenanigans; entirely different topic. But, briefly, I'll just say that if you give yourself to the moment, it really doesn't matter where it happens) and the way we talked about it - and each other - after.

In life, I've always been a fairly assertive, dominant person. That's partly through character and partly through the fact that I'm a 6' tall woman with Amazonian build: when people defer to you constantly, you tend to expect them to. I tend to be independent, willful, decisive and resentful of compromise: these are all dominant traits.

So the fact that I found myself so utterly taken by these new ideas was, perhaps, the greatest surprise of all.

As I mentioned before, I am still new to the scene and my exact classification or label is yet undetermined; I deeply enjoy subbing for DTB, and for a while I wondered whether it wasn't the relinquishing of control itself that was the taboo for me; the pitch-and-roll of the excitement.

But the more I think about it and explore the scene in general; the more I talk to other people and discuss it with DTB it strikes me that, actually, that's not it at all. I still do want to domme; I still want to assert myself sexually - and now I think about it, I've been trying to do that for years with various partners who, while aroused by my commands and demands, were also somewhat bewildered by them. This bemusement held me back from both exploring my impulses more profoundly and trying to identify what it was they were pointing to.

Now, however, the cat is out of the bag and I am free to roam. And roam I shall!

This notion of "switching" feels uncomfortable to me. The anxiety we have to give ourselves an easy-to-read label strikes me as somewhat ironic (if not at times blatantly hypocritical) in a group of people as apparently open-minded and exploratory as we are. Fine, we need to know where we stand when we mix, but I am still left in the dark about why such rigid standards should exist at all. Let alone as to why people who straddle both sides of the line are - once again - talked about as if it's a lack of commitment or an inability to choose that finds them in such a position.

In this there are clear[i] parallels to be made with the LGBT community - another group of people who strive for equality and acceptance and yet, even within their own grouping, manage to treat those who are neither one thing nor the other as if they are somehow "less than". I've always said "When I'm with a girl, I'm gay; when I'm with a guy, I'm straight. And when I'm with both, I'm fucking delirious."

That is to say that I don't get down and dirty with a woman and find myself wishing she had a cock. Nor do I get into things with a man and wished that his kiss was softer or that his hips were rounder or any of the other stuff I love about girls. It's not a lack of commitment or an inability to choose on my part; I like both - why should I [i]have to choose at all?

I have had but a single experience as a domme. And it was enough to make it clear that, yes, this is something I really ought to be playing with, too. Not because I feel that to be a better sub I need to understand how it feels to dominate; not because I need to balance my powerlessness with one person with a sense of power with someone else but because I believe that I can bring peace, pleasure and compassion to someone by doing it, and by doing so, enjoy it myself.

And as with sleeping with men or women, I didn't find myself wishing that she would fight back or whatever, just as I don't hope for the chance to make choices or pick the pace when I'm a sub. As I said before, it's not an inability to choose; I've made my choice; I enjoy both. And perhaps coming to understand both will ultimately heighten my own experience as well as those that I play with in the future, but that's really beside the point.

Because the point here, really, should be that our preferences for domming, subbing or switching should absolutely never be used to define our status within the wider community. We're all so proud of our acceptance of other people's quirks here, all so eager to welcome in new people and "show them the ropes". Until it's discovered that said newbie is a switch. And then, and I'm afraid it's happened to me already (twice!), the cold shoulders are turned and the sneers are carefully hidden, but still apparent.

It's unacceptable and it's surely completely against what the BDSM community is meant to be about. To expect people to be one or the other is as relevant to things as someone's rope colour preferences; that is, not at all.

[thisisme]

I didn't know that switches are looked down upon by many until I read this post and I concur with the "mindset" explanation. However it's not surprising that people's minds change a lot over time so it's not strange to be in one mood at a moment and in the other later.
Moreover, I don't even take it as serious as that so my view of being a switch is just like playing different positions when playing football. Sure many people have their favorite positions, but who says I can't play forward at times and defensive midfielder when I feel like so? As long as I'm just doing it for fun and my teammates are satisfied I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

[Fiera]

I think being a switch is just like being bisexual it makes people think you are confused. However, having said that I would like to state that I am a switch and I am bisexual and to me that just shows an open mind.

A mind that is willing and wanting to explore it all. I know what I like and I like a little bit of everything. It ultimately makes me a better Dom and a better sub.

Good to be confused I guess. :dunno:

[RickBulow74]

As one who had initially brought this topic up in another post, I am liking the feedback from those in the community. Many people feel that being a switch is not natural, even going so far to say that people are either one or the other and there is no middle ground. As I think a few had mentioned here, a sub is not automatically submissive to EVERY single Dom and vice versa. As such it is logical to be a switch in my mind.

[socal_dan]

I don't know about the middle ground, I'm not really sure I can relate to that at all. I'm mostly top oriented, but I have some very specific fantasies I'd like to try as a sub. I'm really not sure if I'd call myself a switch or perhaps switch-curious?

I can understand other people being frustrated by thinking they're not going to be everything you need, or that you won't reasonably fit their relationship. If I found a domme to try subbing for I would expect some kind of annoyance (maybe not the right word?) for thinking I might break the exchange of power. But I'm a firm believer that each relationship is different, and can fill different roles in your life; you don't necessarily need to be poly for that to work... I mean, most of us have had vanilla relationships also, and those often satisfy a different part of what we want in a relationship.

[Secretside247]

I disagree. I don't think it's that complicated. I can be both, depending on who I'm doing this with..If they like to be controlled...Then I can be the meanest bitch there is, but if they like to controll, I can also be a submissive slave. I prefer to be sub, but if Im asked to be domme...I just picture how I would like my domme to be, and that works for me. But, Im new to this....So who knows.

[MstrWolf_ncs_lilbrat]

i could never be a switch, but i don't know if it is my personality or the fact that i identify as slave that dictates this boundary for me. i don't like telling people what to do, and i don't like controlling others. i wouldn't punish, and i don't enjoy being served. So i would make the worst mistress ever. i think it has some to do with how proficient you want to be in a role...for instance, a person who is content with a moderate amount of knowledge should probably not have much trouble being a switch; on the other hand, someone who wanted to perfect a role would have a much harder time, because there are so many things to learn, practice, and remember.

i have a terrible memory. Even if i would make a decent mistress, and even if being in control wasn't an issue, and i felt comfortable in that role, there's no way i could do a good job as a switch just on that fact alone.

i absolutely hate condescension. There is no reason to ever look down on someone because they are one way or another, or in this case, both. i mean, in a community where vanilla people look down on us, why divide ourselves more by looking down on those whom we might not understand or with whom we might disagree? Instead of looking at our differences and using those to divide ourselves, we should use them to unite; after all, isn't the common thread between all of us the fact that we are different from vanilla relationships?

[FaerieLytes]

personally? who cares? i mean really... i am a submissive to men and a Domme to women, my reasoning? because i am overprotective of whats mine even if that person happens to have collared me, any female brought in would be under my control first, and taught to please as i do...

or maybe because im Bi and a control freak i want to top women but expect men to be Dominant for me ehh... either way my parents always told me that bisexuals were fucked in the head and pagans were damned to hell so maybe im fucked in the head and going to hell but im gonna have fun before it happens! so who cares what people think , none of them will ever be you, so they cant know what YOU are or how worthy YOU are, just live your life and have fun.

maybe i rambled... this happens...

[darinna]

As a switch here I can tell you that some of the reactions I have gotten are bizarre. I have been told that I am just "confused" "not serious" or really just need the right Master. I've also been told by dom/mes that they won't go with switches because "they always try to flip you". And it is very parallel to the reactions I get as a bisexual in other fora. Not to say that this is the most common reaction, but it happens often enough.

I think many of the ideas others have brought up are quite valid, but there is one that I don't think I have seen yet, and that is performance anxiety. Once (not here in the library) I had someone tell me that they would not ever think of topping me because they were afraid that I was a more skilled domme than them and they wouldn't measure up. :( I've gotten the impression more than once that some people are afraid that a switch will be judging them against the switch's own performance in that role, and I have never figured out quite how to address that.

And to sinderalla, I understand you quite completely. For me, my switching is absolutely gender-based. I domme men and I sub to women. For me, that's the way my fetishes run and I can't explain it any more than I can explain why leather and ropes get me wet. ;)

I can somewhat understand Timoty's point about a switch not being being his completely. But only in the context of a long-term monogamous situation. The same thing happens with bi's, so many lesbians will not date a bi woman because they assume that she will eventually turn to men again. Of course what he is failing to realize is that people can commit to the right person and stay committed no matter what outside distractions there are or what form they take. Bi's can stay in monogamous relationships no matter what gender they are with, and switches can commit fully to a D/S relationship no matter what side of the slash they are on.

[thir]

I can somewhat understand Timoty's point about a switch not being being his completely. But only in the context of a long-term monogamous situation. The same thing happens with bi's, so many lesbians will not date a bi woman because they assume that she will eventually turn to men again.
[/quite]

Isn't it rather cultural or political? I mean, in all relationships people can fall in love with another person and leave them, be it men or women.

[quote]
Of course what he is failing to realize is that people can commit to the right person and stay committed no matter what outside distractions there are or what form they take. Bi's can stay in monogamous relationships no matter what gender they are with, and switches can commit fully to a D/S relationship no matter what side of the slash they are on.

True!

[Heritor]

Personally, I am a listed dominant, However, I'm switch enough to want to be topped and I have been. Unfortunately, despite my sub desires I am naturally far too dominant to truly lose control. I tend to plan and top from the bottom. So, essentially dominant.

I don't believe any switch is ever 50/50. Usually there is a tendency towards one side, sometime only slightly, but usually. Perhaps this varies between partners, or towards whichever was the more formative BDSM experiance. Anyone agree/disagree?

[davina_]

Wow, what a great thread, and three years old too. I'm only half way through reading each post because I want to try and understand everyone's position. I think it's important to allow yourself an open mind and I'll probably kick myself for posting before I finished reading the entire thread but here goes, my two cents...

Who is so Dom that they get to make all the rules and these rules are unconditional and must be abided by? Who is so sub that they don't have the ability to say "no" I can't/won't do that? I think as humans, we are all in a vast circle and each one of us finds a spot we are comfortable with. Some gravitate to one extreme more than others while some like the adventure of investigating the realm somewhere closer to the middle. Maybe the middle offers more insight to both sides, I don't know. I do believe that it is within everyone's ability to shift around and explore any aspect once they allow themselves to open up to all the possibilities.

I've never explored any BDSM outside of a close personal relationship. But within that relationship, I have found it most rewarding to be able to assume both roles as it helps me to understand what the other-side is like enough to orchestrate matters for mutual satisfaction. I really think it comes down to two people and how much they want to try and make one another feel fulfilled and complete. It doesn't matter how you get there, it only matters that you do.

I will admit that I have never been able to wrap my head around certain things. Certain concepts just seem to foreign to me. Others seem to attract me like a strong magnet. But neither has anything to do with being dominant or submissive. I think that is more just a matter of what I'm in the mood for at the time and how my partner makes me feel. I think it's a lot of fun to be open to whatever happens and just live for the moment.

[ksst]

Davina, that's a really good post. I had never heard the term "switch" before I joined this forum. I guess I have had a sheltered life. Anyway, I do understand that people might want to be dominant sometimes and submissive at others, depending on mood, the particular partner, the place they are in their life etc. I have tried out both roles with my husband in play. With him dominant and me sub, it's just a lot better for both of us. I don't feel the dominant role like I do submissiveness. I would just be acting, and the same for him in reverse. But it can be fun at times to mix things up. From what I read here, it seems that other people do feel just as good in either role.

[Ozme52]

My only issue with switches is that everywhere I've particpated, online and real life, they complain that they're looked down upon. Well, in my not so humble opinion, it's a fallacy except for the part that is wish fulfillment. All the happy switches that I know have come to terms that they enjoy both roles. Only those who think they need to make a final decision complain that they're somehow second class citizens within the lifestyle.

And my experience is that they are really complaining that they don't get to play with subs who want a full time dom. Or that they won't be chosen by a dom who wants a full time sub. It's really reverse discrimination. They're mostly upset because "we" want someone who HAS made the decision. Not that I think less of them. It's just what I want.

And I will play with a switch if we have chemistry... but if they want to reverse roles with me it's unlikely that said chemistry will last long. Not their fault, not mine. It's just how I'm wired. But some will say that I am being unfair because I would choose a sub over a switch.

Ridiculous.

[davina_]

My only issue with switches is that everywhere I've particpated, online and real life, they complain that they're looked down upon...Ridiculous.

I agree with everything you say. I think you are "participating" with switches that might not be secure in the fact that they aren't full time either way and therefore shouldn't expect to be treated as such. I think a real switch realizes that his/her oppertunities are different. We have a unique playing field and as such, can't compare ourseleves to the likes of others who play differently. I don't think it's a matter of looking down or up, but just a different direction.

[Aibo]

In many cases I think it is about insecurity, yes the dominant cannot just handle it.
I started out switch myself and were quite appalled by some things I heard. Over time I happened to put switch to the side, and it had nothing to do with what other people thought. Yet about that time there were a guy who were a major member of a BDSM organization who told me that "switch men become the best Masters since they understand what goes on in the head of the submissive" and that is something that I took with me.

Now that some remain switch is rather something I envy since they have the opportunity for twice as much good times than me. And I am serious when saying that I think so.

[Ozme52]

See! Either they whine or they claim superiority. So who're the insecure and who are the intolerant? Seems clear to me. ;)

[DowntownAmber]

Shocker...lol...another thread that boils down to "people are individuals and we like what we like, dislike what we dislike." I think too many people take others preferences as a sign of acceptance or disapproval, and that's simply reading too much into it.

[CoupleOregonJack]

To make a general statement about a couple of labels doesn't make any sense to me. There are all kinds of levels, all kinds of gradations, an infinite number of variables in and millions of different relationships where each person is constantly changing too. None the less I think switches generally have more complications than someone who is clearly identified in their head as being on one side of the fence or the other. I'm new to this, and switch seems like the right label for now, but I'm looking forward to dealing with the complications this will cause (in the dynamic of my relationship with my sub partner).. I figure I will keep changing, learning and growing...hopefully.

[CoupleOregonJack]

The more I read on this site, the more I see I have to learn. I'm Way too inexperienced to say anything about switches. I really don't know where I stand yet, so maybe I'll write something intelligent when I have some experience. So maybe my last post should be ignored. I'm sort of willing to bet I will drop my tentative switch label and hop off the fence before too long.
Anyway.. I think this is a great place with lots of great information. I just read a piece about finding real doms and avoiding creeps that people really should read.. I think it was under something like info for newbies to bdsm.

[Heritor]

I'm not sure your viewpoint is so valid. I have never encountered problems in a switch/sub or switch/dom relationship, because respectful partners accomodate each other. As a switch I would not try to coerce a sub into topping me, or a dom into subbing for me.

I prefer to see it as an advantage - I'm versatile!

Also, on the whining front, I have never encountered a purist anti-switch either. =) Unless you are one?

[Heritor]

That was meant to be a reply to Ozme52...

[Dog's Lady]

Wow! A lot of really interesting stuff in this thread. Now for my two (or ten, or fifty) cents worth. First, does anyone remember the Kinsey scale? It goes from one to seven, with one end being completely straight and the other being completely homosexual (I just can't remember which end is the one and which is the seven) In his studies of human sexuality he found that almost no-one is a one or a seven; most of us fall somewhere in the middle. I've mentioned elsewhere in the forum that I am bi-curious; I use that term because I have had very little experience with other women-to put it in high school terms, I've only been to second base. My primary attraction has always been, and probably will be for men, but there are some women and some situations in which I find myself attracted to women/a woman. Does that make me confused? I don't think so; think in restaurant terms: do you always order the exact same thing at the restaurant every time? I don't. I may have a favorite that I order most of the time, but I will have days when I want something different. So men are my favorite, but that doesn't mean I would never "order" a woman instead. On the Kinsey scale, I think of myself as either a 2 1/2 or a 5 1/2, whichever is more hetero.
Why can't BDSM be similar? If we call one a total submissive, and seven a total dominant, wouldn't most of us fit between two and six? I have had completely vanilla relationships, others in which I was submissive only, one in which we switched almost evenly, top/bottom, with a healthy mix of vanilla added in. In that particular case, our submission was exactly the same-to top him, I only needed to do what I would have wanted, with a few changes for our different gender equipment, if that makes sense. I could be a really good top for him, and he for me, because we knew and understood what the other wanted. I've had relationships in which BDSM was just a little spice, so we each tried both role to see what we liked and didn't like.
In my current relationship, we are primarily vanilla or me as sub. I tried topping him one night, but he is a very different sub, as compared to me. It is/was harder for me to know what to do to/for him; I pulled him out of sub space by doing something I would have wanted in that situation, and ruined it for him. I am trying to learn more about what he feels submission is, and work up a scene that his sub would enjoy.
I bring up all of my relationships (well, not all . . .) because I think that part of the reason I will play top comes from my submission; actually, a lot of my sexual behavior comes from this place: I want my partner to be happy and satisfied. If vanilla sex is most pleasing, I can do that-and sometimes, that is exactly what I want. To be held, treasured, whisper sweet nothings . . . fairy tale sex, of a sort. I am primarily a sub in sex, although I am learning, through this man and all of you, how many different definitions there are for that-connotations, not denotations, if you will. I am very outgoing in public (I have even been called bossy, drill sergeant), and if my partner needs/wants to let go, not have to run things, then I can draw on that side of myself and try to be the top, or just the aggressor, for that time. Let me pull one example, one that can fit with vanilla, top, or bottom sex. I love to give head. I love to look at, touch, smell, taste male genitals. (Well, as longer as you have showered in the past few days--that is one of those scents that is great fresh, bat can go bad kind of quickly. Yes, I know it is the same for us ladies.) I love to see and hear my partners pleasure in what I am doing. Sometimes, I even get a bit of a power trip, knowing the reactions I can incite-even if I am giving head as a sub. It pleases me, it pleases him, on multiple levels. At least, they seem to be pleased. If I can ever get my Dog-dear onto the site, you can ask him if I am any good at it. But the evidence I have collected says that I am, and I think it is because I want to be, so I am willing to try different approaches until I get that pleasure response from him. (BTW, this is one of the reasons I hesitate to be with a woman: I have no experience going down on them/us, and would hate to disappoint a female lover with my ineptness.)
Oh, and I am another mixed-up-NOT confused-person: socially liberal, fiscally conservative, etc., etc, just like a few other ladies described themselves back on page two of this thread. And I am okay with it-even proud.
Again, I don't know if I just made things more complicated,or if I managed to add to the discussion, but I hope it is the latter. Thanks for listening.

[ksst]

I think you make a lot of sense there, and I was not confused at all by what you have written.

I also like the Kinsey scale model of looking at both hetero/homosexual feelings and dom/switch/sub feelings. That would probably throw a lot more people into the switch category than there are now, if people tended to use a scale.

Personally, I can't really imagine being the top without sort of a nervous, bad feeling. I did try it when asked but I didn't get any fun out of it, and he ended up "escaping" and overpowering me anyway. That part was fun :) I may be about a one on that scale.

Probably I am closer to the middle than the edge on the gay/bi/straight scale, although I have had absolutely no experience with women.

[Red-15]

I am puzzled by the whole premise of this thread. Look down? Look at, maybe. Look to, look for, but look down? Never! If that were the case, I would be without my bride. That wouldn't do at all. I would be without nearly a third of my friends, IRL and on the other kink site I frequent.

For what it's worth, I think switches make a whole lot of kink possible, never mind fun. Let them get and give in proportion to their wants and needs, and those of their partners and play mates.

I'm also rather tickled by the comparison to the Kinsey scale. For the record, 0 is exclusively heterosexual, and 6 exclusively homosexual. If people could get together on how to set up the nomenclature, for instance, 0 = bottom, 6 = top, it could be a useful tool for those seeking mates, partners and play friends.

Don

[Dog's Lady]

Thanks for the clarification, Red-15--I can never remember which end is which. The only problem with using the 0-6 scale for BDSM is that there is so much variety in it. Even if you state that you are, for example, a "0", what does that mean? Do you like orders, bondage, pain, all of the above, or something else completely? (And, yes, I know that I brought the idea up. I thought of this problem later.) I, to use a real example, like being tied down, but not masses of rope in painful bondage. Dog is introducing me to shibari (I know I spelled that wrong, hope you all know what I mean,) but that is not painful. I like being spanked, and am learning to take more and harder strikes, but I don't like all pain. I do like being ordered around, and some of what one author termed "erotic humiliation," but I am sure there are other subs who enjoy it when it is much more intense than I would be comfortable with. Maybe us BDSM folks need multiple scales to cover all of our play. Anyone want to take a swing at setting up a profile?

[Red-15]

@Dog's Lady, This has been done, sort of. At least in a sort of individuated way. I don't know if one can post a link to another kink site here without irritating TPTB, but if you are interested, PM me, and I'll be happy to direct you to the tool to which I refer.

Don

[Captivesoul]

Would anyone look down on a great cook, who also likes to eat?

Anybody ever tried telling Clint Eastwood he can't be both a real director and a real actor?

We know human beings are complex, multifaceted characters in other aspects of life. To insist on rigid categorization in our relationships, which are among the most complicated things we involve ourselves in, really makes no sense.