Top/bottom vs D/s

[ghostgirl]

...wasn't sure where to start this thread, apologies in advance if i'm in the wrong place.

My question is this: how do you see the roles of Topping or bottoming, as opposed to D/s?

For instance: if you typically take a bottom role in your play, and feel your submission to be very real within the context of the scene, but then want to make a clear transition out of subspace and get on with your busy life...are you a bottom, or a sub?

[Flaming_Redhead]

I engage in topping and bottoming while at the dungeon I'm a member of. When I bottom in a scene, I don't consider that anywhere near submission. I negotiate what will and will not be done to me. I can halt it at any time if I don't like it, and I don't worry about whether or not the top is enjoying him/herself. It's really all about me getting my jollys. When I top, I'm actually providing a service. The bottom is not my sub. Therefore, I do only what the bottom wants and no more. I have no authority to push him/her to keep going so that I can inflict more pain. It's not all about me.

For me, D/s only factors in when I'm in a relationship. That's where the actual power exchange takes place. As trust and respect grows, I give more of myself. It spills over into life outside of the bedroom.

In my opinion, what you're describing is what is commonly referred to as being a "bedroom submissive." Not everyone desires lifestyle D/s, and that's fine.

[ghostgirl]

Thank you for an interesting reply.
If you don't mind clarifying for me: if i'm understanding you correctly, bottoming isn't submission in part *because* you negotiate, and you can halt it? And, if you did have some interest in the top's enjoyment, would you then be submitting?

[MasterBaron1945]

I think you are real, living a real normal life

Keep your head on straight and you'll get the most of both paces.

[Flaming_Redhead]

It's a little hard to explain how I function. *lol* I don't negotiate a scene in a relationship because we've already gone over hard limits/soft limits/etc. in the beginning, but I do throw out some dos and don'ts if I'm playing casually in a dungeon setting because they don't know me. Negotiating in and of itself doesn't necessarily make it "not" submission. It's just a whole different mind set for me. Casual play is like a business transaction of sorts. I want the pleasure of being hit, and they want the pleasure of hitting me. Yes, you can hit me, but don't use this or do that. Even if they think I'm doing what they want, it's only because I want it and has nothing to do with pleasing them. I want it *my* way. Kinda sounds like a Burger King commercial! *lol* A lot of people won't admit to that. It sounds harsh, but what kind of submission can you actually expect in that setting? None!

In a relationship, I don't have to know exactly what he will be doing to me before he ties me up because I trust him. I will endure things simply because it pleases him to do them irregardless of whether or not I enjoy it because I want to make him happy. Making him happy makes me happy.

[SubmissiveDoll]

Thank you for an interesting reply.
If you don't mind clarifying for me: if i'm understanding you correctly, bottoming isn't submission in part *because* you negotiate, and you can halt it? And, if you did have some interest in the top's enjoyment, would you then be submitting?

I want to toss my two cents in here really quick. Subs -CAN- negotiate limits with their Dom. It DOES NOT make you less submissive to have limits. I have hard no's just like anyone else. A D/s relationship requires a lot of communication, to determine every ones safe and comfortable spots. Usually it's the job of the Dom to push those limits and help teach a submissive to expand out. But, you can have limits.

I think what she was trying to say was that if you have no desire to live your everyday life as a submissive, perhaps you simply enjoy being submissive in the bedroom. There is nothing wrong with that at all.

The dynamic in the relationship of people in a lifestyle vs. bedroom BDSM setting is slightly different. But can be just as fulfilling.

[blythe spirit]

I'm trying to understand this as well. Topping/bottoming is a game you play online or in r/l? D/s is a lifestyle?

[Flaming_Redhead]

Whenever I'm referring to topping/bottoming or anything of a BDSM nature, I'm referring to real life. For some people, D/s is a lifestyle...meaning that they engage in dominance and submission within a relationship, not just in the bedroom. It goes beyond kinky sex and encompasses everyday activities.

[blythe spirit]

Whenever I'm referring to topping/bottoming or anything of a BDSM nature, I'm referring to real life. For some people, D/s is a lifestyle...meaning that they engage in dominance and submission within a relationship, not just in the bedroom. It goes beyond kinky sex and encompasses everyday activities.

So if you're a top or a bottom, you're just playing in the bedroom?

[ghostgirl]

Thanks very much to all who've responded.
i guess i'm most interested in the boundaries, where one thing starts to blur into another...i'm not sure i framed the question well :)

From Flaming_Redhead's post, it seems the association for top/bottom is with more public, casual play, as opposed to an ongoing relationship, for one thing. i'm not sure this fits in the strictest definition of the term(s), which i understand as merely denoting the active versus the passive player.

Another association i'm picking up (and please correct me if i'm wrong, Flaming_Redhead) is where the player's attention is focused...for a bottom, on herself, for a sub, on her Master.

So...more questions:
How about if the bottom is very much interested in the top's enjoyment - is she being a sub?
Is it only considered "submission" if you're doing something you don't like, in order to please Master or Mistress?

And, since i've been called a lot of things, but never "bedroom submissive," let me frame a different scenario: If i suggest a bottom choose five things she likes, and two she doesn't like at all, from her list...am i now Domming her?

[Flaming_Redhead]

A top is someone who is supposedly in control during a scene. A bottom is someone who supposedly gives up control in a scene. There is not necessarily a "relationship" outside of the scene. It doesn't always denote public play as some people do not play in public, but it does refer somewhat to a more casual acquaintance. It's more of a physical "control."

Some people use top and dominant as well as bottom and submissive interchangably, but there is a slight difference. Fetish bottoms are very much self-centered. You don't have to be submissive to be a bottom. Ask any dominatrix...they are approached by many males who are supposedly submissive but who really just want to satisfy their foot fetish or whatever other kind of fetish they have. The dominatrix is simply a means to an end. You also don't have to be dominant to be a top. If you're looking for straight lines, you won't find them here.

Submission doesn't necessarily mean having to do things you don't like. It's being under the control of another and making his needs a priority. Your pleasure is secondary. You find pleasure in serving his needs. This is not to say that you never enjoy yourself or that the dominant doesn't make sure your needs are met. It's an exchange. The control in a D/s relationship is more mental or emotional than physical.

If you have no desire to be controlled outside of the bedroom/scene, i.e. only submitting to play, you're a bedroom submissive or bottom. If you want your partner to have control in certain aspects or most aspects of your life, you're a submissive. If you desire a total power exchange or control in all aspects of your life, you're a slave.

No, you're topping. *lol* I don't know if I'm doing a very good job of explaining things.

[SubmissiveDoll]

Redhead, you are doing a fantastic job of explaining.

[sinderella]

I want to toss my two cents in here really quick. Subs -CAN- negotiate limits with their Dom. It DOES NOT make you less submissive to have limits. I have hard no's just like anyone else. A D/s relationship requires a lot of communication, to determine every ones safe and comfortable spots. Usually it's the job of the Dom to push those limits and help teach a submissive to expand out. But, you can have limits.

it's interesting to see other people's experiences... while i have only had one, and am beginning a new one, i do see one commonality through all of the submissives' experience, and that is trust. my former Dom didn't hand me a list of things He would do to me during our time together, and i didn't hand Him a 'love menu', but in knowing each other and talking to each other many times before each encounter, i sort of knew what to expect, although i didn't know every time everything He planned on doing...and i don't think He did either, although He might give me an overview of what He had in mind. but there was always that safeword waiting for me to use if i needed it, and, if gagged, a little bell to ring. it's funny, your Dom can take you down into his dark places and even if it is kind of scary, it's terribly exciting, especially when He talks to you when He is enjoying you, which of course, meant i never had to use my safeword or bell once, no matter how far he pushed me. yum...

[Pearlgem]

A top is someone who is supposedly in control during a scene. A bottom is someone who supposedly gives up control in a scene. There is not necessarily a "relationship" outside of the scene. It doesn't always denote public play as some people do not play in public, but it does refer somewhat to a more casual acquaintance. It's more of a physical "control."

Some people use top and dominant as well as bottom and submissive interchangably, but there is a slight difference. Fetish bottoms are very much self-centered. You don't have to be submissive to be a bottom. Ask any dominatrix...they are approached by many males who are supposedly submissive but who really just want to satisfy their foot fetish or whatever other kind of fetish they have. The dominatrix is simply a means to an end. You also don't have to be dominant to be a top. If you're looking for straight lines, you won't find them here.

Submission doesn't necessarily mean having to do things you don't like. It's being under the control of another and making his needs a priority. Your pleasure is secondary. You find pleasure in serving his needs. This is not to say that you never enjoy yourself or that the dominant doesn't make sure your needs are met. It's an exchange. The control in a D/s relationship is more mental or emotional than physical.

If you have no desire to be controlled outside of the bedroom/scene, i.e. only submitting to play, you're a bedroom submissive or bottom. If you want your partner to have control in certain aspects or most aspects of your life, you're a submissive. If you desire a total power exchange or control in all aspects of your life, you're a slave.

No, you're topping. *lol* I don't know if I'm doing a very good job of explaining things.

Great post, FR. Much appreciated it, great info, very well explained. Thanks x x

[SilverWulf]

I'm trying to understand this as well. Topping/bottoming is a game you play online or in r/l? D/s is a lifestyle?

Topping/bottoming is done in real life, face to face with someone you are playing with. I would have a very hard time imagining a true Top/bottom interaction online (ok, other than some of the games that go on here in chat... lol).

D/s is most definitely a lifestyle for some people. For some, it permeates their everyday life in ways they cannot even define.

[leah06]

I wondered about this too. I was at this horrible munch over the weekend and when I left several people encouraged me to check out a local dungeon, which I said I'd think about, and then one guy asked if I was a top or a bottom, and I said, I'm submissive. As I left I thought about this.

First, given the distinctions that have been made on this thread, I clearly am submissive, but also, for me the pain or sensation aspect is not really thrilling in itself, without the aspect of submission and pleasing another person. I couldn't imagine - at the moment, I seem to be in a very fluid time of my life - having someone hurt my body for MY pleasure.

So I wonder, does "bottom" imply enjoying the physical sensations of s/m interactions, or did this just arise in the context of my conversation because I was, after all, being invited to a dungeon? Maybe "sub" allows for enjoying the D/s dynamic without implying a pure physical enjoyment of every sensation?

I know that in another thread there was a discussion of when a Dom might choose to bottom in a sexual interaction, or when a sub might be allowed/required to top.

[Ozme52]

Semantics aside, the difference for me is in the emotional context and the emotional connection.

And that doesn't necessarily mean a lack of emotional connection makes it T/b... as I have had D/s mentoring relationships, but such D/s relationships will not be as intense as with others whom I have felt that "chemistry".

I think of it as T/b when I really don't care if there will ever be a repeat performance...

[ghostgirl]

I couldn't imagine - at the moment, I seem to be in a very fluid time of my life - having someone hurt my body for MY pleasure.



Some would say this attitude simply means you haven't yet discovered your inner masochist. ;)

[ghostgirl]

Fetish bottoms are very much self-centered. You don't have to be submissive to be a bottom. Ask any dominatrix...they are approached by many males who are supposedly submissive but who really just want to satisfy their foot fetish or whatever other kind of fetish they have. The dominatrix is simply a means to an end.

Can't argue with this; i've seen it myself. i wonder if it is more a function of the "fetish" part of the equation than the "bottom (or "top", for that matter).

[ghostgirl]

Semantics aside, the difference for me is in the emotional context and the emotional connection.



There does seem to be a consensus on this point. Thank you for nailing it.

[Flaming_Redhead]

So I wonder, does "bottom" imply enjoying the physical sensations of s/m interactions, or did this just arise in the context of my conversation because I was, after all, being invited to a dungeon? Maybe "sub" allows for enjoying the D/s dynamic without implying a pure physical enjoyment of every sensation?

Bottoms are masochists, but not all are submissive. Some submissives are also masochists, but not all of them are. Most tops are sadists, but not all are dominant just as all dominants are not sadists. We haven't even mentioned switches, yet! *lol*

Dungeon play is typically about S&M, not D/s. There are some couples who practice D/s without any S&M, such as 1950s household (head of household). You also have Domestic Discipline, which involves corporal punishment but usually not play. If you can think of a dynamic, chances are it's being done by someone..somwhere..

[Ozme52]

There does seem to be a consensus on this point. Thank you for nailing it.

It's definitely enjoyable... um... "nailing it" for ya!! :rolleyes: