Is BDSM a religion?

[Veronika]

I'm a person who thinks a lot. And since I've noticed that inside a BDSM community there is a lot of similar patterns, habits, general conduct, rules and sort of an own language too - could it resemble a religion sort of? Mistresses/masters who are in fact worshipped as goddesses/gods. And I find it strange to hear that many are feeling such powerful emotions and devotion almost like under a spell or trance of some kind.

Do you ever think about who is it that you are actually worshipping? What if it's not really a human at all? And if it's not God, then who is it?

[MasterBaron1945]

good morning

you are new here, and probibly new to the idea.
you are taking things out of context. if you are ever in the position withing a relationship that has this bond, you will know, you will understand.

This is not a religion!

[satisfied]

I don't feel that there is any kind of worship going on here. For me it is not worship or a God-like status that makes me adore my Dom. It is the way his power over me makes me feel. I worship only one God and my Sir is not that God. I am not under a spell or a trance. Yes, it is wonderful that he can make me forget myself sometimes and just completely surrender to him. But that also is a willing choice, not a spell. His control over me is a choice i've made and no one tried to talk me into it. Please do not try to make this sound like a cult. It is so far from it. The #1 rule that I have discovered is that there is no set rules or guidelines. A D/s relationship is different for each and every couple involved in one. What works for Sir and myself may not work for someone else and everyone is okay with that. I would suggest that you do much more exstensive research on the lifestyle. I personally find your thread offensive. But maybe that is just me.

[Soaul]

Religions have both mysticism (worship of a God or Gods or some entity) and a moral ethic (code of behavior).

BDSM certainly does have a code of ethics but so do Doctors, Barbers and the like. There is no "God" in BDSM or in Medicine, etc.

Therefore BDSM is not a religion.

By the way Taoism is a mysticism without a moral code and Confuciusism is a moral ethic without a God. Therefore the two are often combined. The major world's religions have both.

[Flaming_Redhead]

What you have noticed is true in any community where people share similar interests and beliefs, and I suppose one could accuse anybody of having a "religion," such as yuppies worshipping the almighty dollar. There are different kinds of "worship" in BDSM, i.e. cock worship, foot worship, etc. It's not done in the same context as worshipping as we know it in regards to religion. As much as I love my boyfriend's cock, I don't pray to it or believe that it has mystical powers no matter how much I enjoy sex with him. *lol* As to the emotions and devotion, I can honestly say that I've never loved a man the way I love V, but the only time I'm in anything resembling a trance is during play. I suspect it's caused by endorphins, much like a runner's high which enables one to finish a marathon.

[fetishdj]

BDSM is a lifestyle but not a religion. The reason I say this (as well as all the other excellent points made above) is because BDSM changes on a time scale a lot quicker than any religion. BDSM practise and ethics are always undergoing changes as we evaluate and revise what we do. Many religions get stuck into ruts of dogma which limit thier ability to change with the times.

Of course, this is not to say that we do not have dogma of our own and that there are many who are stuck in their ways. However, we are still more prepared to assess our beliefs and codes than some religions are and make significant changes to them.

[CookieMan]

I'm a person who thinks a lot. And since I've noticed that inside a BDSM community there is a lot of similar patterns, habits, general conduct, rules and sort of an own language too - could it resemble a religion sort of? Mistresses/masters who are in fact worshipped as goddesses/gods.

The worship that you hear of here isn't like that in a religion. Worship here refers to an act, not a belief that there is anything to be gained from it. Not eternal life, not sudden healing, not never-ending cookies(however my doll would get those if she just asked nicely enough).


And I find it strange to hear that many are feeling such powerful emotions and devotion almost like under a spell or trance of some kind.

A spell or a trance? Perhaps you are referring to Domspace or subspace. Why is it strange? Is it not similar to the way sports players talk about 'being in the zone' or when authors spew forth pages and chapters and entire books in a sitting because they're focused entirely upon what's before them? I have a feeling that you are misinformed, or have drawn your own conclusions after watching some show, reading some book, or having a close friend confide in you that their lifestyle is D/s and it bothered you. I do hope that we here can help clear the air, so to speak, and you can understand what it is you're obviously confused about.


Do you ever think about who is it that you are actually worshipping? What if it's not really a human at all? And if it's not God, then who is it?

Again, this ties in to what I said in the first part. I'm sorry you feel this way, but perhaps through opening your eyes and your mind, you can see that we're not Devil-worshipers, which you alluded to with your parting question.

Just my two cookie-scented cents.

[Veronika]

I personally find your thread offensive. But maybe that is just me.Why would you find it offensive? You people are emphasizing it that we are all different and all should be respected. Why am I not allowed to ponder here. This is a discussion forum right? All views welcome?

[Soaul]

All views are welcome I suppose. You are allowed to ponder.

That doesn't mean one can't take offense to a post though. Offense is personal just like your views are.

BTW, I find it curious that you responded to this one comment rather than all the orthers.

[SubmissiveDoll]

re⋅li⋅gion
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

No BDSM is in no way a religion. It's a lifestyle... like people who like fishing, hunting, skiing, skateboarding. You can find a discussion board for anything! Why would this be a religion. I don't generally like to talk about my personal beliefs, but I'm Christian. No I don't 'worship' my Master in the same way I worship my God. Nor would he ever ask me to.

If we like we can get into the many facets of religion that agree with BDSM lifestyle as a practice. Ever read the old testamant? I have, you should check into that sometime. Or perhaps the Kabala? Or know anything about Shinto, or Hinduism or Judaism? Almost all government recognized religions speak for D/s relationships in marriage.

The powerful emotions you speak of, is a rush of endorphins and adrenaline. We have dubbed it sub and Dom space. For simplicity of talking about it.

I'm enamored with my Master, I love him with all my heart. He owns me, body and mind. But my soul belongs to God.

[Aibo]

Religion. I hope not, and dont seriously think so.
Some in the BDSM community do act and live as they are part of a cult though.

[Veronika]

I don't generally like to talk about my personal beliefs, but I'm Christian. No I don't 'worship' my Master in the same way I worship my God. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour? Do you believe Jesus died on the cross and rose again for your sins?

I had an interesting article that I was supposed to post here about BDSM and its link to religion. But as a newbie I can't.

[Veronika]

Some in the BDSM community do act and live as they are part of a cult though.This is interesting, could you tell me more?

[fetishdj]

Why would you find it offensive? You people are emphasizing it that we are all different and all should be respected. Why am I not allowed to ponder here. This is a discussion forum right? All views welcome?

I agree with this... if you find threads like this offensive then you should maybe consider not reading them.

As an aside... if you feel uncomfortable because your beliefs are challenged it may be because you need to reconsider those beliefs either to consolidate them (by reaffirming them) or to change them. It is the purpose of a debate like this to challenge any beliefs so that they can be assessed on an individual basis by all who read it. None here intend to offend and it is unfortunate that some will inevitably always get offended by such discussions. However, you cannot ask anyone (who has not deliberately gone out of their way to offend someone by saying something inflammatory) to apologise for simply stating thier own beliefs just because they disagree with yours.

Of course, anyone who does go out of their way to cause offense by posting inflammatory comments (like 'All Buddhists are idiots', for example) will be in violation of the T&Cs and will be expected to make reparations for their actions.

[fetishdj]

Why would you find it offensive? You people are emphasizing it that we are all different and all should be respected. Why am I not allowed to ponder here. This is a discussion forum right? All views welcome?

I agree with this... if you find threads like this offensive then you should maybe consider not reading them.

As an aside... if you feel uncomfortable because your beliefs are challenged it may be because you need to reconsider those beliefs either to consolidate them (by reaffirming them) or to change them. It is the purpose of a debate like this to challenge any beliefs so that they can be assessed on an individual basis by all who read it. None here intend to offend and it is unfortunate that some will inevitably always get offended by such discussions. However, you cannot ask anyone (who has not deliberately gone out of their way to offend someone by saying something inflammatory) to apologise for simply stating thier own beliefs just because they disagree with yours.

Of course, anyone who does go out of their way to cause offense by posting inflammatory comments (like 'All Buddhists are idiots', for example) will be in violation of the T&Cs and will be expected to make reparations for their actions.

[SubmissiveDoll]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour? Do you believe Jesus died on the cross and rose again for your sins?

I had an interesting article that I was supposed to post here about BDSM and its link to religion. But as a newbie I can't.

I'll answer this. I shouldn't but I will. Yes I believe in Jesus Christ, unless there is some new fangled Christianity that I'm unaware of. Your questions are disrespectful and demeaning. As well as ignorant.

I have to admit I'm curious about this article you were SUPPOSED to post here. Would that be the only reason you joined? Your happy to attack us here for being offended by your rude and offensive posts, but you can't take the same criticism that you are dealing out. Do I walk into your family and begin telling you how you are doing everything wrong? No, because how you live your life is between you and God.

Are you attempting to speak to me of my personal religion? If you would like please do. I'm happy to continue this. I'm not afraid of my religion or my lifestyle. I have peace and happiness in my life and it will take a lot more than your narrow views to ruin it for me.

Now, if you have question about BDSM please ask. Just try to do so in a way that isn't offensive to everyone here. Thanks!

[leah06]

Yipes. Clearly you've hit a nerve, Veronika. Anyway, I don't think it's a stupid question and I don't think it's offensive either. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the moderators encourage those who are offended by a post to, you know, navigate away from it. Given some of the things that are posted on here it's interesting that this one seems to be extra shocking.

Anyway, in answer to your question - no, I don't think bdsm is a religion, but I do see parallels between some aspects of bdsm and some aspects of some religions. Sorry, guys! If you don't like this, no one's making you read it.

First, I do think you've correctly identified that there can be a certain amount of religious fervor that people bring to some interactions - or, to be more precise, to their descriptions of those interactions and of their emotions. I've certainly felt this, and I've enjoyed it and I don't confuse it with blasphemy, but I recognize the parallels. Second, speaking only of my own religious tradition, it is clear to me that some of the ways we are encouraged or required to approach God are in many ways similar to certain bdsm rituals. Moreover, our relationship with God in some ways mirrors that of a sub to a Dom, or, as we like to say in my religion, to a master.

OK, but I'm reversing the causality - the religion doesn't mirror the bdsm, the bdsm MITRRORS THE RELIGION. Do I think this is intentional? Of course not. But bdsm arises from deeply felt needs, just as religion does, and it's not reasonable to think that bdsm would just invent its emotions and rituals with no reference whatever to other deeply felt experiences. And besides, IMHO, our relationship with God is the ultimate power exchange.

[SubmissiveDoll]

OK, but I'm reversing the causality - the religion doesn't mirror the bdsm, the bdsm MITRRORS THE RELIGION. Do I think this is intentional? Of course not. But bdsm arises from deeply felt needs, just as religion does, and it's not reasonable to think that bdsm would just invent its emotions and rituals with no reference whatever to other deeply felt experiences. And besides, IMHO, our relationship with God is the ultimate power exchange.

This is beautiful Rachel. Thanks.

[Veronika]

Fetishdj: You are making good points there. It's nice to discuss with people who are not threatened by different views. And thanks for all other replies as well. I am not a member of BDSM community but I do take various interest in life, people, their behaviour and beliefs.

[CookieMan]

Well shoot. I thought this was a board for folks in the BDSM lifestyle. Odd that what I've thought as a safe haven for where I could go to talk to discuss things without fear of recrimination or being judged...I suppose I'm wrong and just a subject for observation for the vanilla world.

[Veronika]

Your questions are disrespectful and demeaning. As well as ignorant.
Which questions exactly? I don't think any of my posts are.


Your happy to attack us here for being offended by your rude and offensive posts, but you can't take the same criticism that you are dealing out. Attack? That's not true at all. Is it possible that my posts scared you in some way? It's not like I would've called anyone names or said you are doing something wrong I never said that.

[satisfied]

Originally Posted by Veronika
Do you ever think about who is it that you are actually worshipping? What if it's not really a human at all? And if it's not God, then who is it?[/QUOTE]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay so maybe the word offensive was not exactly what i was trying to say. I suppose that what i meant was....Where exactly did you get the idea that we are worshipping anyone? This is a lifestyle choice we are all making and the way you phrased the above statements gives me the impression that you think we are a cult. I would imagine that there are millions of people who don't understand us that would feel the same way you do. So the real question is...Do you honestly believe we are worshipping some imaginary god, or are you just curious to find out if we think we are?

[Veronika]

it is clear to me that some of the ways we are encouraged or required to approach God are in many ways similar to certain bdsm rituals.I've studied this and ran into a document which was: The Slaves Prayer. That is as close to a religion as it can be in my mind. There are lines like this: "Grant me the power to give myself to Him completely", "Let me open myself up to completely belong to him", "Allow me the spirit to know his needs." This combined with kneeling, ritual positions, in some extreme cases cutting. Sounds pretty scary to me.

But what I understand this slave thing isn't that common is it? Are there more submissives than slaves?

[Veronika]

Do you honestly believe we are worshipping some imaginary god, or are you just curious to find out if we think we are?I think it's possible that BDSM is linked to yoga, tantra, buddhism, wicca or in some ways encourages to join them. But I can't be sure that's why I'm studying it.

[denuseri]

I'm a person who thinks a lot. And since I've noticed that inside a BDSM community there is a lot of similar patterns, habits, general conduct, rules and sort of an own language too - could it resemble a religion sort of? Mistresses/masters who are in fact worshipped as goddesses/gods. And I find it strange to hear that many are feeling such powerful emotions and devotion almost like under a spell or trance of some kind.

Do you ever think about who is it that you are actually worshipping? What if it's not really a human at all? And if it's not God, then who is it?


Alltough this thread would be better placed in the religion and philosophy section of the forums I will respond here.

It is easy to see how an outsider to the community might mis-construe some of the more formalized practices and lingua argot to be of a theological nature; however, if anything it is more of a philosophy for those of us that adhere to the more ritualistic and or symbolic elements of BDS&M.

The practice of bdsm is no more in conflict with our respected faiths than the sexual practices of the vanillia world are to thiers.

If anything it is less in conflict with many of the D/s aspects of patriarical based faiths as well as many eastrn theologies.

It is also easy for the mis-informed to make snap judgements based on incorrect assumptions.

If the feelings of devotion and love that a submissive and a Dominant feel for one another appear to be so overwhelming or in essence appear to be acts of mutual worship to casual outside observation, it is only becuase they are in so many ways more genuine than those of vanillia couples who still reside isolated within the confines of self made prisons filled with doubt and mutual loathing.

And in that regard I pity them.

[Flaming_Redhead]

I have never run across the document you're referring to, but I would think that whoever wrote it was praying to whichever god she/he worships in regards to whatever religion she/he follows. It could easily be God of Christianity or a pagan god or goddess. It still doesn't make BDSM a religion.

There are some parts of Christianity that are pretty scary if you think about it and sound a lot like D/s. A wife is commanded to submit to her husband in all things. Women are not to speak out in church and risk embarrassing their husbands with their ignorance but are told to wait and ask their husbands. It is suggested that we should go into a dark closet to pray.

The slave versus sub debate is a whole other topic that you'd probably find plenty of answers to if you use the "search" function.

[denuseri]

I have seen the slaves prayer and it is a prayer to God, not to the dominant. Though it does ask God's blessing to give the submissive the ability to please her dominant. It is also a very bueatiful sentiment.

Here is a copy of it:



A Slave’s Prayer

From my knees, I ask with all of my heart…
Grant me the strength to submit to Him
Without fear or doubt - only with love in my heart
Grant me the ability to make His will my own
Even when I cannot understand the reasons
Grant me the wisdom to know silence and
To always speak with humility and respect
Grant me serenity in my service to Him
That my joy may become His
Grant me the ability to bring Him
Comfort and pleasure in His use of my body
Grant me the grace to accept punishment
In a manner befitting of the woman He owns
That I reflect well on Him in every moment
Allow me to accept Him as He has become
To change what I am to what He desires
Without losing the girl that He chose to make His
Grant me the ability to inspire Him and
To bring light to guide our way on this journey
But more than anything else, I ask
Grant me my greatest desire
To make His life complete
As He makes mine

[jezabel]

: "Grant me the power to give myself to Him completely", "Let me open myself up to completely belong to him", "Allow me the spirit to know his needs."

?

im a slave and i know that what i do is right for me...it has nothing to do with religion, just the adoration of a slave for her Master.

im also a committed christian and the feelings i have for my God are totally different to my feelings for my Master. BDSM is a lifestyle choice, not a religion or a cult...it cant be as W/we in the lifestyle have too much variety for it to be.

your remarks arent offensive as such, but i can see why some people may thinks so. if anything youre naive....read the threads, learn more about our lifestyle, then maybe you will learn all you need to know.

if you ever want to chat, contact me, im here to talk as long as you are willing to listen to views that may not match yours

[Veronika]

There are some parts of Christianity that are pretty scary if you think about it and sound a lot like D/s. A wife is commanded to submit to her husband in all things.Yes but the husband and wife are submitting to Christ so it's not like the husband is allowed to do wrong things. So if the husband is breaking against God wife doesn't have to obey him.

22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, people have never hated their own bodies, but they feed and care for them, just as Christ does the church
-Ephesians 5:22, 5:28-29

[Veronika]

if anything youre naive....Really? I think its offensive to try to make me believe I'm on a child's level or something. Not that I'm offended. I know I'm an intelligent adult. Master. Now there is a word. Makes you wonder can you serve two Masters at the same time?

[Soaul]

Now everyone has the right to serve whichever Master they pick, don't they?

And if one wants a threesome (two Masters) who's to say why not? Certainly, not you or don't you believe in the Trinity!

[Aibo]

This is interesting, could you tell me more?

Even though this thread borders on a flamewar already. I will reply.

So yes, I used the word cult, and we find quite a number of similarities.

Cults tend to have a uniform, on BDSM gatherings you find something called 'dresscode' - ok not the best example since you see quite some variety, yet there is something to it, since everthing you see there, is something you dont see on the streets. And so you have the closed society setting, another sign of a cult.

Rules of conduct. Only certain ways of behaviour are allowed, switches tends to have a hard time both in reality as well as on forums.
Also if you have one interest that is outside the norm. Animal roleplayers to mention one example are often attacked with deliberate misunderstandings even suggestions of copulating with animals by other BDSM interested individuals.

Even within one male dominant female submissive relationship you will find that the ceiling is quite low, even on a forum.
If a submissive is allowed to suggest things, then you can bet you soon will see posts telling that she 'is topping from the bottom' and that you are a crappy Master. The examples can be made manifold but I will move on to some other points.

Breaking the law, many of us in many countries do break the law with these activities. We need not look further than Great Britain to find examples of raids by the police and arrests.

This does not only account for the action of private couples at home. Some BDSM organisations do even have bylaws that go against the legislation of the society where they are found. Examples found in several countries, though I limit to only one BDSM organisation in Norway where they have some ideas I don't subscribe to, including on rape.

That we do this for one erotic purpose changes nothing, many cults do indeed have the same aim, it may be polyamory ...or things we might dont even want to contemplate here (well I spit it out, children (http://www.keyetv.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=f6c951a1-e7b0-4954-8398-2b38ac393bb7) yuck.)

If you go against the dogma of a cult, you will be expulsed or banned.
Also that we can see here, very often there is only one view that is allowed on a number of matters.

[Pearlgem]

Reading over your questions and comments, V, it's clear there are many things you have still to learn about BDSM. It's perfectly all right not to know - everyone was new once and plenty of newbies are joining here all the time to learn and grow. If it is your wish to genuinely learn about this lifestyle for whatever reasons, personal or otherwise, you'll find no finer place. You'd get on better if you showed a little courtesy to those members who take the time to respond to you with knowledge and intelligence. You'd do that anywhere, wouldn't you? People on here value the sense of genuine community they engender. You'd be most welcome if this is what you too are honestly seeking.

If, however, you wish only to be emptily provocative and argue purely for the sake of it, that is your choice too. You can see how such antagonism might not help you learn or make your points convincingly, I'm sure. But I repeat, if you wish to learn and be part of a very real and valued community, you'd find yourself most welcome.

Take care x x

[Veronika]

If you go against the dogma of a cult, you will be expulsed or banned. Also that we can see here, very often there is only one view that is allowed on a number of matters.True. Also might I add the attitude may be in some cases "us against the rest of the world" and isolation. For example if the master/mistress forbids sub/slave to contact certain people or media.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Yes but the husband and wife are submitting to Christ so it's not like the husband is allowed to do wrong things. So if the husband is breaking against God wife doesn't have to obey him.

22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, people have never hated their own bodies, but they feed and care for them, just as Christ does the church
-Ephesians 5:22, 5:28-29

That would be in a perfect world. I don't understand why you think the husband isn't "allowed" to do wrong things or why the wife doesn't have to obey him. *smiles* In the case of marriage to an unbeliever, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him. If the unbeliever leaves, THEN are they not bound.

I'm also not sure what your definition of "wrong things" is. Sex isn't wrong. Husbands and wives are to share their bodies with each other. Their bodies are not their own. It is their marital duty to please the other. It doesn't say how exactly....as much as the church would like us to believe that it's the missionary position.

[Veronika]

But I repeat, if you wish to learn and be part of a very real and valued community, you'd find yourself most welcome. In other words, I'm not allowed to think differently in here at all? To me that is narrowminded. And questioning some things to have a interesting conversation is not arguing in my opinion. Is it in yours?

[jezabel]

Really? I think its offensive to try to make me believe I'm on a child's level or something. Not that I'm offended. I know I'm an intelligent adult. Master. Now there is a word. Makes you wonder can you serve two Masters at the same time?

im glad ur not offended, as i wasnt trying to offend u....im far too intelligent an adult for that, esp as ive read the forums t&cs and would hate to get myself banned for such an insignificant reason.

Master is the name i call my Dom out of politeness and respect...my relationship with God and what i call Him are not up for discussion, not because im too scared to, not allowed to or not intelligent enough to have a proper debate about it, but this is a lifestyle chat not a religious one....

[Veronika]

I'm also not sure what your definition of "wrong things" is. Anything against the word of Bible. Of course sex is not wrong who said that?

[Veronika]

Okay so now after 15 posts I'm allowed to post that article I was talking about: http://www.mn-mistress.net/spiritualquest.htm

[efwb2]

Religion is a faith, e.g. beliving in somthing blindly. A sub that has never met a master a meets them has faith that they will not hurt them. This does not make it a Religion becuse the trust and faith is earned and not blind faith.

[sinderella]

Veronika, what are you doing here? are you really seeking information or just trying to make people justify themselves to you?

as far as this way of life being compared to a religion, you are confusing the spiritual aspects of it with religious ones. a religion is a belief system centered around a supernatural entity. where do you see that here?

a cult is the same thing as a religion, except it is outside of the 'normal' mainstream religions.

just because there are protocols and practices, objects or clothing that are unique to this way of life doesn't make it a cult. being concerned for your partner's safety, pleasure, enjoyment, and well-being requires caution and a set of rules, defining limitations, etc.

and just because one can experience a true spiritual communion with their partner, or an altered state of consciousness, even, doesn't make it a religion - vanilla people can experience the same thing when making love to their partners, although it is much more prevalent and profound in this world.

and yes, seeing it referred to as a 'cult' personally offends me.:mad:

[Pearlgem]

In other words, I'm not allowed to think differently in here at all? To me that is narrowminded. And questioning some things to have a interesting conversation is not arguing in my opinion. Is it in yours?

Are you interested in discussing topics or do you just want to argue about arguing? Think differently by all means but why not be courteous of others' views too. Questioning is encouraged, arguing is fine but try to keep on topic. You tend to get rather personal and come across as unecessarily aggressive. I'm sure you don't mean to. Read other threads here and see how good arguments remain on topic and avoid being personally disparaging.

Take care x x

[Veronika]

and yes, seeing it referred to as a 'cult' personally offends me.:mad:
I didn't bring that word up.

[Veronika]

You tend to get rather personal and come across as unecessarily aggressive. Lol, sure turn everything upside down.

[Veronika]

I wanted to start discussion about this issue. I wanted to give out my opinion. You can agree or not to. I'm not going to apologize that I think differently and I tend to keep my own mind as long as I see fit. I'm not easily brainwashed ya know. And Fetishdj and Rachel06 made good points when they said if some thread offends you - then don't read it, simple as that.

Take care all...

[fetishdj]

Hmmm.... certainly a rather interesting debate here...

If we take a moment to step back and consider this from an intellectual viewpoint rather than an emotional one, I find this a fascinating discussion. From what I can gather from a quick skim read, we have two main arguments:

1) That the elements of BDSM which refer to 'worship' of an individual such as a Master or Mistress compounded with the elements of ecstatic ritual incorporated into the practises (sub and domspace) which are similar to those seen in some shamanic rituals (especially those that involve pain to create a trance state) could be evidence to compare BDSM a religion.

2) The opposing view that the essential lack of a central belief in a spiritual entity combined with several other factors which essentially come down to the 'BDSM is just like golf' argument which claim it essentially is not... Within this may well be the 'calling anything else a religion other than 'my' religion is heresy' argument though that could be a third one and one which is too primed with contention to possibly be safe...

So, is anyone prepared to debate these sensibly and with constructive argument? Would it be better to move this to the religion and philosophy thread?

[sinderella]

I didn't bring that word up.

i know. i was just adding that to my final thought. i should have clarified that better.


I wanted to start discussion about this issue. I wanted to give out my opinion. You can agree or not to. I'm not going to apologize that I think differently and I tend to keep my own mind as long as I see fit. I'm not easily brainwashed ya know. And Fetishdj and Rachel06 made good points when they said if some thread offends you - then don't read it, simple as that.

Take care all...

well...of course people are going to read it... i don't think people want you to 'apologize' for having a different viewpoint. i do think that your manner is somewhat off-putting, i have to say...

[SubmissiveDoll]

I think the quote you are going for ...

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, 23 for the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as also Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 to make her holy, cleansing her in the washing of water by the word. (Ephesians 5:22-26)

Unless you wanted it to be paraphrased like you had it. Admittedly, it does sound a whole lot different the way you have it. I personally prefer quoting the bible the way it's written though.

I'd mention the slave's prayer, but I think they had that one covered.







Yes but the husband and wife are submitting to Christ so it's not like the husband is allowed to do wrong things. So if the husband is breaking against God wife doesn't have to obey him.

22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, people have never hated their own bodies, but they feed and care for them, just as Christ does the church
-Ephesians 5:22, 5:28-29

[Pearlgem]

I think it would be definitely better to move the thread to Religion and Philosophy. I would have a different feel and response to it I think than here under general BDSM talk.

*click* somebody make it so!

[Veronika]

i do think that your manner is somewhat off-putting, i have to say...Maybe so but my first post in this thread got strong emotional responses which were almost rude.

[sinderella]

Even though this thread borders on a flamewar already. I will reply.

So yes, I used the word cult, and we find quite a number of similarities.

Cults tend to have a uniform, on BDSM gatherings you find something called 'dresscode' - ok not the best example since you see quite some variety, yet there is something to it, since everthing you see there, is something you dont see on the streets. And so you have the closed society setting, another sign of a cult.

i'm not sure how being mindful of people's privacy is being a "closed society", and how you determine that is "a sign of a cult". not everyone is open about their true nature...while i am not ashamed of being a submissive, i don't go broadcasting it at the office, or at family gatherings. it is a cherished, private part of myself, not subject to other's ignorant assumptions and prejudices.



Rules of conduct. Only certain ways of behaviour are allowed, switches tends to have a hard time both in reality as well as on forums. Also if you have one interest that is outside the norm. Animal roleplayers to mention one example are often attacked with deliberate misunderstandings even suggestions of copulating with animals by other BDSM interested individuals.

Even within one male dominant female submissive relationship you will find that the ceiling is quite low, even on a forum.
If a submissive is allowed to suggest things, then you can bet you soon will see posts telling that she 'is topping from the bottom' and that you are a crappy Master. The examples can be made manifold but I will move on to some other points.

Breaking the law, many of us in many countries do break the law with these activities. We need not look further than Great Britain to find examples of raids by the police and arrests.

This does not only account for the action of private couples at home. Some BDSM organisations do even have bylaws that go against the legislation of the society where they are found. Examples found in several countries, though I limit to only one BDSM organisation in Norway where they have some ideas I don't subscribe to, including on rape.

That we do this for one erotic purpose changes nothing, many cults do indeed have the same aim, it may be polyamory ...or things we might dont even want to contemplate here (well I spit it out, children (http://www.keyetv.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=f6c951a1-e7b0-4954-8398-2b38ac393bb7) yuck.)

If you go against the dogma of a cult, you will be expulsed or banned.
Also that we can see here, very often there is only one view that is allowed on a number of matters.

individual opinions on message forums are just that - opinion and commentary. they do not make up the entire BDSM D/s etc. way of life. you of course know why protocols and rules are necessary, and they are by no means sinister or signs of a cult. :32:

[sinderella]

Maybe so but my first post in this thread got strong emotional responses which were almost rude.

well i hope you don't feel that way about my responses to you. being a seeker myself, i would hate to feel unwelcome. but i would probably not make those i sought information from feel challenged or pushed in any way.

if responses were filled with emotion it is because (speaking only for myself), your submission or Dominance is WHO YOU ARE, and when someone appears to be dissecting you or alluding to incorrect or even sinister motivation on your part, it does tend to make you close off a little...

[Veronika]

Hmmm.... certainly a rather interesting debate here...
I'm glad you think so too! :)

[Veronika]

but i would probably not make those i sought information from feel challenged or pushed in any way. Well maybe I'm quite strong-minded and I know it can be annoying to some people, lol.


if responses were filled with emotion it is because (speaking only for myself), your submission or Dominance is WHO YOU ARE,That implies then that we are not talking about a hobby that can be compared to playing golf, rather than something deeply personal and important. Kind of like religion?

[jezabel]

That implies then that we are not talking about a hobby that can be compared to playing golf, rather than something deeply personal and important. Kind of like religion?

no, as ive said, its a lifestyle, a choice...def not a religion

its about a relationship between people who have like-minded views...a relationship similar to a 'vanilla' lifestyle but with a few more extremes, more pain and in my opinion more fun and meaning.

[Aibo]

i'm not sure how being mindful of people's privacy is being a "closed society", and how you determine that is "a sign of a cult". not everyone is open about their true nature...while i am not ashamed of being a submissive, i don't go broadcasting it at the office, or at family gatherings. it is a cherished, private part of myself, not subject to other's ignorant assumptions and prejudices.

Hello sindarella, it is with extreme hesitation I decided to reply to you directly.
First off, I did say similarities, you also read my post the same way as 'the Devil reads the Bible'.

How you deal with this have nothing to so with my post at all, I dont know you, and was not the subject here.

I do however know the ideas, situation and as already mentioned bylaws of a number of BDSM clubs and societies, and a few of them do indeed show warning signs both as for the rules and the behaviour of certain individuals.



individual opinions on message forums are just that - opinion and commentary. they do not make up the entire BDSM D/s etc. way of life. you of course know why protocols and rules are necessary, and they are by no means sinister or signs of a cult. :32:

When rules and bylaws go against both the law and common sense, (the example on rape mentioned earlier) I be damned, but I do view it as a sign that something is wrong and want no part of it. So I do not subscribe to their newsletter, never have or will visit one of their BDSM parties and never will be a member until they change them, period.

[sinderella]

Well maybe I'm quite strong-minded and I know it can be annoying to some people, lol.

That implies then that we are not talking about a hobby that can be compared to playing golf, rather than something deeply personal and important. Kind of like religion?

there are many things that are "deeply personal and important" to many people, vanilla and otherwise, and which they are very passionate about, but they are clearly not "like religion". religion is people coming together to worship a supernatural entity, like Jesus, God, etc.

i am completely lost as to your confusion of BDSM with religion, but...carry on and good luck in your quest. the next part is not about you, jsut so you don't think i am addressing you - just making a comment.

as far as newsletters and whatnot, without knowing the particlulars i can't comment on that newsletter, but newsletters, individual clubs, forums and organizations do NOT a lifestyle make. i believe everyone subscribes to the "Safe Sane and Consensual" maxim.

[sinderella]

I think it would be definitely better to move the thread to Religion and Philosophy. I would have a different feel and response to it I think than here under general BDSM talk.

*click* somebody make it so!

"Make it so, Number One." :)

Wheee...

[thepast]

A MESSAGE FROM YOUR FRIENDLY ADMIN:


This thread has been moved to RELIGION & PHILOSOPHY for some obvious reasons-- a.) deals with religion (see 10 posts above in thread); b.) the religion & philosophy area allows a LITTLE more leeway in posting. Note the phrase: A LITTLE MORE-- that does NOT mean leaps & bounds more.

What you post is your OPINION. If you are offended by the thread or the topic, you may say "I find the TOPIC offensive" not "x, you are offensive." I also highly suggest if you DO find it offensive to meander to another thread to post in because you are emotionally connected to the topic & will find it difficult to seperate fact/fiction and fact/opinion.

CONSIDER THIS A WARNING, FOLKS!!! Keep it on topic, keep it pithy, and keep it to a low roar.

[damyanti]

As someone who has a bit of a fetish on intellectual and psychological musings, especially in terms of (all) D/s relationships, I quite enjoyed your opening posts, but your later ones do make me wonder what it is you hope to accomplish...since you seem to have already made up your mind.

So let me state here unequivocally - BDSM is in no way, shape or form a religion!

And it most certainly isnt a cult - in cult people have uniform beliefs, if you bother to read through other threads (BDSM And Feminism (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17998); Intelligence and Submission (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18480); Washing feet (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18023); Old School (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17910); Question about romance (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17466); Safe Words and Safety Concerns (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17208); On Being a Dominant (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17130); and many, many more) you will see that we cant agree on anything :D...except maybe that its ok that we dont agree on anything and that we all have the right to live our lives in a way that feels right to us...but thats hardly a cult-like mind frame.

Whereever there is a gathering of people there are bound to always be bad people, people who always have to be right, people who get off on brainwashing the less experienced ones, those who use just about anything to excuse abuse........but all these things have nothing to do with BDSM and exist in vanilla world too, maybe even more so....(but even if the opposite were true, I have met so many wonderful and wise people here, and learned so much - even from those not so wise, imho - that that makes it more than worth it and makes me grateful that this site exists).

What you mistake for religious fervor is in fact devotion and intimacy that is born out of sharing your life with someone else....in BDSM the intensity of it is more pronounced because in adition to sharing, you are also placing your life into someone elses hands or someone else is placing their life into yours so communication is mandatory...and often reaches levels that I imagine confuse and scare vanilla people.

I'm strong-minded, indepndent adult, reputedly highly intelligent and not easily brainwashed....I am also determined and know what I want...and it does involve "us against the rest of the world" feeling. I wont settle for less.

This isnt right for everybody...we get that...so I can assure you that we have never had a thread where we discussed our evil plan of turning the rest of the world into one giant dungeon (though numbers in Science on BDSM (http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18960) thread make for an interesting reading)....so please extend us the same courtesy of not implying that there is something sinister, sick or abnormal in a way we choose to conduct our personal relationship. Because by your definition of religion what all the vanilla people who stay in bed on Sunday morning and shout "oh, god" are doing is praying, :blurp_ani.

[his_girl_l]

[QUOTE=Veronika;765481]Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour? Do you believe Jesus died on the cross and rose again for your sins?

No, i don't. Nor do i see my Master in that light.

And nor do i come to these forums and expect to find evangelising christians judging my lifestyle choices, anymore than i would go to a forum devoted to religious faith and question peoples sexual and lifestyle choices.

There is a religion and philosophy thread here where you may have better luck finding the answers you seek.

By the way, i found the slaves prayer beautiful, even though i personally don't have a deity to direct it to.

[Veronika]

I quite enjoyed your opening posts, but your later ones do make me wonder what it is you hope to accomplish..
Please read my posts 24 and 39.


so please extend us the same courtesy of not implying that there is something sinister, sick or abnormal in a way we choose to conduct our personal relationship. I have never said those things, why would you interpret it that way? Are those your own thoughts?

[lucy]

This thread once more showed me how lucky i am to not believe in anything. Life's just so much easier when you're an ignostic atheist :D

To the original question (which i think is a good one): Nope, BDSM is not a religion, because unlike the only religion i know (catholicism) and most i heard of nobody tries to tell me what is right and wrong, good or bad, allowed or forbidden.
I can walk through the world of BDSM, pick things i like, reject ideas i dislike, mix it all together and form something that perfectly suits my needs.
If i'm really lucky, i can do that with someone else, or more than one, and nobody tells me with whom and how many of them.

Now which religion allows you that many choices?

[Veronika]

the original question (which i think is a good one)I appreciate that, thanks.

[hopperboo]

NO it is not a religion...imo.

[TwstdKittie]

I feel that if you were going to call it anything even REMOTELY like a religion, I'd liken it more to Buddhism, as in, not a religion but a way of life. It's something that for me, brings inner peace when I understand and embrace that aspect of me, and it brings balance to my life and calms me when I think about my Master and other things. It's just another fulfilling part of my existence, but I'm also not "religious" so I'd say it's definitely more like Buddhism, but not spiritual in the sense of having a deity/deities that are "worshipped" per se.

[Matin]

veronika,
i thought i'd add my thoughts to the mix, if only to throw a wrench in ^.^

no i don't equate what i do sexually with religion. or what i do lifestyle-wise with religion.

but with spirituality, oh boy, you betcha. confusing? for me it is sometimes.

but i believe, very strongly, that sex and the male/female or masculine/feminine dynamic (lol in whatever manner its expressed) are very much muddled in my head and that sex is for me often times a spiritual event.

and heres another fun thing; being pagan by my path i have engaged in sexual acts AS spiritual acts and vise/versa.

this topic has actually made me stretch my mind around the links between sex and spirituality in ways i often havent - like a lot of people i don't think too hard on things i accept and take for granted as part of my world.

but i also think it may be a good idea not to read much into that. most pagan religions as ive read them deal with a very basic tenet of duality in their world view. god and goddess, often in the older ones with the goddess held higher than the god, but more commonly with a general equality. and naturally because we give human characteristics to the world around us - anthropomorphism or "magical thinking" - so the weather, the turn of the seasons, the solstices and fire festivals all become wrapped in a mythos containing a lot of sex.

a lot of masculine/feminine interactions into which one can read sexual content:) but i wanted to make sure you were still reading. so logically we(pagans, but not all) strive to worship and express our spirituality in ways that reflect the mythos. sex!

the human body is a gift, the world around me as i see it it a great roiling natural sex show, so i dive in and participate to the best of my ability.:)

i had fun with this, i know y'all are confused. hehehe

i'm so keeping an eye on this thread.

bon soir
-matin

[wind_dancer{W_W}]

For me it is a religion because my Master IS my Lord i pray to Him and love Him more so than any modern day religion ever could love their god He is my God and i love Him more than any other thing in this world

[IAN 2411]

As anyone bothered to look up the word religion, if you haven't then this will be a surprise to all you non believers. Intpret it in any way you wish, my belief is that it is a religion and a faith.

Wicipedia.

This article is about a general set of beliefs about life, purpose, etc.
A religion is any systematic approach to living that involves beliefs about one's origins, one's place in the world, or a responsibility to live and act in the world in particular ways. Religion is often equated with faith and belief in a higher power or truth, but it is more properly defined as the pattern of action that expresses that faith, and reinforces it in day-to-day living. Thus, one can share the philosophy of a religion, believing in its higher truth, without manifesting that faith religiously.
Aspects of religion include narrative, symbolism, beliefs, and practices that are supposed to give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life. Whether the meaning centers on a deity or deities, or an ultimate truth Religion is commonly identified by the practitioner's prayer, ritual, meditation, music and art, among other things, and is often interwoven with society and politics. It may focus on specific supernatural, metaphysical, and moral claims about reality (the cosmos and human nature) which may yield a set of religious laws, ethics, and a particular lifestyle. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience.
The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction. "Religion" is sometimes used interchangeably with "faith" or "belief system, but it is more socially defined than personal convictions, and it entails specific behaviors, respectively.
The development of religion has taken many forms in various cultures. It considers psychological and social roots, along with origins and historical development.

Regards ian

[SadisticNature]

BDSM is neither a religion nor a cult in my opinion.

I think there is ample evidence already in this thread to support the fact that BDSM is not a religion, most importantly the fact that it goes against the basic definition of religion.

As for the more extreme claim that BDSM is a cult, I strongly disagree. Firstly, cults often try to indoctrinate minors, which BDSM strictly avoids with age limits. Secondly, BDSM offers a lot of personal freedom to both Doms and subs with regards to even such fundamental things about what BDSM is. You wouldn't see Scientologists offering these choices about the meaning of Scientology for instance.

Thirdly, while each group or event has its own rules, these are often a matter of practicality, and vary wildly from event to event even within the same organization. The dress code for a munch for instance is radically different than the dress code for a play party and each is often dictated by the location of the event, and other practical considerations. This is a far cry from some sort of uniform.

[Wiscoman]

People actually study cults and have found that they all operate along similar lines, so -- for the sake of context -- here are the characteristics of a cult from International Cultic Studies Association (http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm):


The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

‪Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

‪Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

‪The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

‪The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

‪The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

‪The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

‪The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

‪The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

‪Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

‪The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

‪The group is preoccupied with making money.

‪Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

‪Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

‪The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

Obviously, some of this will sound familiar since we're dealing with issues of control. But I've got to tell you, if "Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group" applies to you, run -- don't walk -- from that relationship.

My verdict; not a religion, and certainly not a cult.

[Thorne]

A religion is any systematic approach to living that involves beliefs about one's origins ...

Well that lets me out! My life is as far from systematic as you can get!

[Izzydoodle]

Just a thought, but the BDSM lifestyle could be a good example of Civil Religion. It performs some of the functions that religion does, for example a sense of unity/community, uniform, rules, stuff like that. Football is often considered a Civil Religion, if that's the case that surely BDSM is too? Like i said, just a thought.

[angelhunter]

There was a discussion at our Buddhist meeting, "is Buddhism a religion?" In our form of Buddhism there are no Gods, no creation story or talk of how the universe will end. In studying Buddhism is nothing about debate that started in India and migrated to China then Japan.

In all religions all major religion has a base and debate is part of it. There are some who say Jesus is only a prophet, some say he is the son of God and some say he is God. The debate goes on.

I believe any type of thinking can become a religion. Everything starts with the spark to the flame. If bondage is something that you feel very strongly and it feels like it is big part of you and then who can say it's not a religion. I think the key word for me in the word religion is finding who you are. Some have to have a divine being and some can find some other path. Your path is yours, it is personal and dear to the one who walks the path. For me in general, I always said that science is my main religion and Buddhism is my secondary.

I believe in cause and effect and what science calls action and reaction. You can not deny action and reaction. Maybe one day, the fire will create a inferno and who knows maybe bondage can be a religion. Did the early Christians know that this religion would have been so massive? What will be the religion of tomorrow? Or better yet, maybe religion will die, who knows.

Nuff said.

[xspy4u]

Ahhh...my specialty....I have extenisive time spent in the study of religion and a BDSM lifetsyle does not fit a "religous" system of belief and order in the purely "western sense." However, religion is by design a method by which we explain our purpose and our place in the greater scheme of things...so we could at least call the lifestyle a "spiritual"pursuit. Now on to my Christian friend. Although a topic avoided by most evangelistic Christians, we know...yes we know...that most of Christianity was borrowed from more ancient religions...starting with a little tale called Genesis that Moses made changes to from the Egyptian story of Geb and Nut. We also know that historians of Jesus' time missed all the miracles of Jesus, that Nazareth did not exist until 75 years after Christ's alleged death, that the words of Jesus in Mathew are different than in John...where Jesus moves from Son to God himself...and that most of the ceremonies were borrowed from the Pagans....that being said, although I am not a practitioner of BDSM nor a Christian...please don't use as evidence a book written by a bunch of folks who slayed so many in the name of their borrowed god. I respect your right to keep your own faith, but not to cast judgement under the guise of curiousty - "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)

[ropekitty]

My own humble views on this topic is I don't really see it as a religion but that doesn't mean one cannot use it in their religious pracitices. There is one thing I have the urge to point out is where yes submissives/slaves hold their Doms/Masters/Owners in high respects they also know that their Owners are human and therefore also make mistakes as well as need support and everything else that humans need. Some, I am guilty of this in the past, forget that Doms are human and elevate them to a higher level then they really are. Is this a bad thing? in some cases it is because setting someone so high up will eventually have them come crashing down in the subs eyes at some point (in general). So, yes the kinks of queening and "whorshipping" feet and other body parts are out there, I do not think it is the same as what I do in my faith with a higher being that isn't human.

To slightly touch on my views of how one would use kink in their faith, if I'm not going too far off on topic, would be using kink as a tool to get to a goal/place in ones mind (I really hope I am saying this correctly). For example, One path that is out there is known as the Ordeal path. This is where one goes through an odreal to get to an altered state/other reasons. Having a scene set up with a person that is more intense and both parties are aware of the goals allows the kink to be used as a tool in one's ways of practicing their faith. That's one general way I look at mixing kink and my religion, but I would never call bdsm my religion.

~RK~

[Blepharospasm]

www.isaacgruzinsky.com