The Pope on HBT: "a threat to the future of mankind"

[gagged_Louise]

Actually I have a lot of respect for Roman Catholics, I know they can often be both warm, honest and intellectually sophisticated people, and as a group they're not near the lumped together image of dry, sour and fanatic 19th century Christians who have said goodbye to reason or understanding. That's why it makes me both sorry, outraged and angry when Pope Benedict targets any kind of homosexual/transgender practices (bisexuality isn't mentioned but no doubt included) in his christmas message and punches home the traditional position that all non-straight sexual practices are unwanted, and adds that they pose a major threat to the human race - and then he still professes that the Church loves homosexuals if only they'd abstain from gay/lesbian sex and recognize their error and sin. *deep sigh* The twist about homosexuality actually threatening mankind - because people would no longer be producing kids? or by way of the breakdown of the traditional family? - is a new twist, that kind of neo-con slag I have never heard from a pope before.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1100422/Homosexuality-great-threat-rainforest-destruction-says-Pope.html

Sex is essentially for procreation, and homosexuality or "blurring of the borders between male and female" is a threat to the cultural and demographic future of mankind. This is unusually glib rhetoric even for a major religious leader. The comparison with the destruction of the rainforests, which is a real danger demanding strong political and social action, is quite clueless, and there is zero attempt to question your own positions in the past. I mean, after a number of paedohile scandals among the priesthood one might start to question if celibate priests and an insistence on straight sex only is always the right way. None of this here though, just down into the trench. :madfire:

[mkemse]

Without the intent of Offending anyone here who is Roman Catholic, it is my firm belief that with Priest Scandals ect. that the Roman Cathlic Church needs to "Clean It's Own Yard" before it complains about how other's in the neighbor look"

[damyanti]

Ratzinger is an abomination! The day he became a pope is the day I spat goodbye to Catholic Church. Jesus was a proponent of tolerance and protector of children...to put a Nazi and a passionate pedophile protector (it would not surprise me if it came out that he is one himself) as his emissary on Earth, it is ridiculous to any true believer and tantamount to Devil worship.

He disgust me and I hope he dies soon...the world needs a new Pope ASAP.

[Euryleia]

I find it hard to believe that, based on the scientific information that homosexual and bisexual behavior has been found in most animal species, that the such sexual preferences amounts to the 'auto destruction of mankind'.

We've had homosexuality throughout human history and we're not extinct yet. Unlike the myriad of species we've managed to wipe from the face of the earth.

There are plenty of other problems facing the planet and people on it. The Catholic Church's stance on protecting people from AIDS is as medieval and unhelpful as using gays, lesbians and transgender people as the ultimate boogey man. To me, it looks like a Wizard of Oz type ploy (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain) to distract people from the Church's increasing irrevelance.

[mkemse]

Ratzinger is an abomination! The day he became a pope is the day I spat goodbye to Catholic Church. Jesus was a proponent of tolerance and protector of children...to put a Nazi and a passionate pedophile protector (it would not surprise me if it came out that he is one himself) as his emissary on Earth, it is ridiculous to any true believer and tantamount to Devil worship.

He disgust me and I hope he dies soon...the world needs a new Pope ASAP.

Could not agree more, they also need a younger pope not one from the "Old School" so to speak, this is the 21st Century as far as I know, and again, NO offense is intended by my remarks, if anyone here is offenend and are Roman Catholic, my apolgies

[Ozme52]

I find it hard to believe that, based on the scientific information that homosexual and bisexual behavior has been found in most animal species, that the such sexual preferences amounts to the 'auto destruction of mankind'.

We've had homosexuality throughout human history and we're not extinct yet. Unlike the myriad of species we've managed to wipe from the face of the earth.

There are plenty of other problems facing the planet and people on it. The Catholic Church's stance on protecting people from AIDS is as medieval and unhelpful as using gays, lesbians and transgender people as the ultimate boogey man. To me, it looks like a Wizard of Oz type ploy (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain) to distract people from the Church's increasing irrevelance.


Please... Take not the wizards name in vain!

I agree with most everything you've said. I also hate the fact that California, (by over 2/3 of the population compared to the less than half who tried to stop prop-8) is more concerned about chicken rights than human rights.

Thank-you lobbyists for the Church of Latter Day Saints.

[strictbrit]

Is anyone really surprised by this attitude from the head of the Catholic church ? Name one organized religion that isn't concerned with keeping it's flock in line by preaching hatred of easy targets in order to enforce it's "mystical" authority.

[voxelectronica]

I'm not defending the church. Fundamentally even the "christian side" of me believes that it's heresy to even have a church.

What I am saying is that you can't preach to people about tolerance with hatred in your words. At that point you are just the same as them not matter how just your cause may be.

[Matin]

we are so 'civilised' these days... yet so uncivil, to see how we still treat each other - by we i mean humanity in general, not the people here => - thanks ozme for the reminder on prop 8; i thought for sure given the huge outpouring of support from us young people on that that we had it... but they won by a long shot. it only goes to prove the strange intolerance still plaguing our 'enlightened' times...

did you know that a lot of the black christian leaders in cali were calling for yes on prop 8? i asked my black friends 'what's up with the discrimination, you know, cause didn't you guys just go thru that not to long ago???!'

of course i don't know many religious people, so they thought i was being funny...

i can't really beat on catholics too much, they've never been anything but good to me, as people, but such a dichotomy there between the folk you'd meet at the church itself and the values of the institution.

not logical...

[mkemse]

Any intresting note to add here, I am from Chicago, ans the Chicago Archdioses agree afew days ago to pay out any additional $1.2 Milloin o a boy who was molested by a Priest in Chicago a few years back at off all places the resroom at US CEllular Park
Maybe if the church drops it celelbacy stand and starts taking these lawsuits seriously and start protecting the child like they should not not the Priests some of this will end

The the other option is for the IRS to simply strip the Church of it's Tax Exempt Status

[Stealth694]

I have to agree with mkemse, oranized religion is out of touch with its people. Instead of preaching tolerance in a time where bombings, terrorist attacks and genocide happen, they preach more hate and intolorence and try to cover up their lack.
Jesus died to absolve us of our sins, would he do so again I wonder?

[FirstBorn]

Is it just me? or does the rest of us consider over population and population growth bad things?

If homosexuality did indeed significantly limit population growth and a responsible religius leader had anything to say about it... Wouldnt the right thing to say be something like "save the planet go queer"

[MMI]

Going back, first of all, to Louise's post, she's so absolutely right. The Pope's position (and that of his predecessors) on homosexuality is so out of date and out of line with scientific observations and real life that it is utterly untenable and borders on the preposterous. Thank God they no longer burn people at the stake!

How can any "serious" organisation actually put forward such views and expect them to be respected in today's enlightened world, when only fanatics would swallow them without criticism? It is because of this that the Church receives - and deserves - such derisive comments as those above and those that may follow. Short of wishing for his demise, I also hope the Pope will surrender his absolute power within the Vatican to a College of Bishops made up of people with a broader world view, even if he remains their mouthpiece.

<I have just given myself a mental image which it would be prudent not to share!>

Personally, I believe Roman Catholics are just like any other people, Christian, atheist or Jew. I do not believe thay are at all like Louise's description - not as a group anyway, and certainly no more than any other group. They laugh and love and ache and cry in just the same way as everyone else. I also believe the majority of priests, though celibate, are not paedophiles or pederasts and, importantly, I do not believe they are out of touch with their congregations. They might be out of touch with the rest of society, but that is because society has rid itself of much of the superstition the Church still clings to. Other Churches are more democratic, and this perhaps protects their pastors, preachers and priests from themselves, and so I call for the reform and democratisation of Mother Church to bring it into line with the other creeds and to remove some of the tarnish to its reputation that its present leaders bring.

[SadisticNature]

I've never really understood how so many nice people can belong to such a ridiculous organization.

The Catholic Church is an organization that continues to exist in almost every country in the world despite it's role in the sexual abuse of minors and its openly declared support for other human rights violations. I don't really understand how any organization that contributes to the sexual abuse of minors can take issue with the morality of legal sexual practices between consenting adults. I think it is a failure of humanity that people actually take their positions seriously.

Furthermore, the office of the pope has not been held by a person without ties to Fascism and Nazism in Germany in the post-war period. In some instances those ties can be taken as errors of youth an Jon Paul II was a fairly liberal pope who was responsible for modernizing the church in a lot of ways and likely not someone one would identify as a Fascist, this is still a disturbing trend. It becomes increasingly clear the church is associated with power and influence. Lacking the successful conversions of the missionary period, they have aggressively rallied against Birth Control of any form in the hopes of rising birthrates among the Catholic populace, hoping to increase influence by controlling a larger portion of the vote in democratic nations. It's disguised in language about "god's will" but I have yet to hear a good answer to why an all-powerful, all-knowing being is defeated by a thin layer of plastic.

[IAN 2411]

I've never really understood how so many nice people can belong to such a ridiculous organization.

The Catholic Church is an organization that continues to exist in almost every country in the world despite it's role in the sexual abuse of minors and its openly declared support for other human rights violations. I don't really understand how any organization that contributes to the sexual abuse of minors can take issue with the morality of legal sexual practices between consenting adults. I think it is a failure of humanity that people actually take their positions seriously.

Furthermore, the office of the pope has not been held by a person without ties to Fascism and Nazism in Germany in the post-war period. In some instances those ties can be taken as errors of youth an Jon Paul II was a fairly liberal pope who was responsible for modernizing the church in a lot of ways and likely not someone one would identify as a Fascist, this is still a disturbing trend. It becomes increasingly clear the church is associated with power and influence. Lacking the successful conversions of the missionary period, they have aggressively rallied against Birth Control of any form in the hopes of rising birthrates among the Catholic populace, hoping to increase influence by controlling a larger portion of the vote in democratic nations. It's disguised in language about "god's will" but I have yet to hear a good answer to why an all-powerful, all-knowing being is defeated by a thin layer of plastic.

This is something i have always thought but dared say in public, but i dont think you can single out Rome and its religion. The Christian church over all has had its fair share of trouble, child abuse, sex scandles. I believe however that it is just the odd blip, but because it is the church, then the press make a meal out of it, it always looks a lot more prevelent than it actually is. I do agree however with SadisticNature that one sixth of the worlds poulation follow a lot of laws made by men that have probably never been with a woman in their life. So therefore you have to ask yourself, what do these preists know about birth, life and and any other subject in married life. Popes notoriously have skeletons in their cupboards and this one was no diferent, i believe he was Brown Shirt scum. Why is it always the bad guys that turn to deep religion, it will make no diference, if you are a monster in life then you are a monster in death. I was Christened Church of England, but at a few weeks old you have no choice, i am not a practicing Christian but i belive in all the Gods new and old, and i dont need an old fart in Rome to tell me how to go about it.

Regards ian

[SadisticNature]

My problem with the Catholic Church is not that there were a few bad apples who molested children. It's that these bad apples were not treated as problems but instead whisked away from problems and put into positions where they could carry out the same problems.

What kind of rational human puts an accused Child Molester in charge of a school?

It's also not just one scandal. There is a long history of the Church carrying out all sorts of atrocities one after the other.

Here is a woefully incomplete list:

Protection of Child Molesters
Support of Fascists, Dictators and Despots.
Support and Encouragement of Holy Wars
Aggressive Repression of the Truth (Scientific or Otherwise)
Aggressive Repression of Human Rights outside those decreed in the bible.

[MMI]

My problem with the Catholic Church is not that there were a few bad apples who molested children. It's that these bad apples were not treated as problems but instead whisked away from problems and put into positions where they could carry out the same problems.

What kind of rational human puts an accused Child Molester in charge of a school?

It's also not just one scandal. There is a long history of the Church carrying out all sorts of atrocities one after the other.

Here is a woefully incomplete list:

Protection of Child Molesters
Support of Fascists, Dictators and Despots.
Support and Encouragement of Holy Wars
Aggressive Repression of the Truth (Scientific or Otherwise)
Aggressive Repression of Human Rights outside those decreed in the bible.

For which items in that list is it impossible to draw parallels involving Kings or Presidents, politicians or teachers, bankers or industrialists, rabbis or mullahs?

[SadisticNature]

My dislike of organized religion is not exclusive to the catholic church, I'll concede the points about rabbi's and mullah's unopposed. I also have a strong aversion to actual monarchies (as opposed to figurehead monarchies which I tolerate for historical reasons).

Regarding teachers, I'm not aware of incidents where teachers were whisked across the country to another school in order to be protected from a child abuse scandal. My problem isn't that a few bad apples were causing problems, its that the organization worked to hide and protect those bad apples and put them in other situations where they would be able to re-offend easily.

Regarding Presidents and Politicians, I again feel its a few bad apples and that in general they aren't protected. There are problems with presidential pardons for individuals associated with that administration which creates some unfortunate loopholes, but I don't feel the system as a whole is set up to support and encourage corruption and criminal activity. Regime change is easy to instigate in a democracy, if you're dissatisfied vote the bums out.

[Bren122]

Organised religion in the West was also responsible for campaigning for the end of slavery; prison reform and the ending of transportation; Catholic and Jewish emancipation; reform of lunatic asylums and poor houses; campaigned for Universal Suffrage; largely responsible for modern Parliaments and the separation of powers.

Organised religions are active in overseas aid with emergency food aid, long term development aid and schools and hospitals. In fact it is the secular aid agencies who have the more damaging ideological agenda in Africa where they stress traditional farming and lifestyles.

It was Catholicism that preserved intellectual endeavours through the Dark Ages; it was Catholicism that fueled the Renaissance and Baroque; Catholicism that founded the first Universities; Catholicism that preserved Europe from the Muslims at Vienna, Malta, Lepanto and Tours.

Organised religions increasingly do reflect the needs and desires of its faithful- it's just that the faithful no longer reside in the West. Can't very well drop out and then wonder why it no longer reflects your values.

[SadisticNature]

For the most part its individual members of organizations, or smaller parts thereof that are responsible for this while the larger organization is adverse to all change. Take for instance individual monasteries sheltering jews during the holocaust while the catholic church cut a deal with the regime to allow catholic schools to continue in Germany.

Likewise, while the church as an organization opposed much of intellectual reform, as evidenced by frequent persecutions perhaps the most famous of which is Galileo but in fact he's just the tip of the iceberg.

The early universities in Europe are in fact predated by similar "academies" in China which are less influenced by religion. Likewise, one has Greek academies which have comparisons to the modern university, but which were sacked during or before Muslim invasions. Furthermore, such universities were often founded by individual monastic efforts, rather than say by papal decree or the larger organization.

Many of the problems you mention that "organized religion" campaigned to end were caused by organized religion.

Also, regarding slavery you'll have to cite the nations, because in the US for instance this was not the case. While many of the prominent anti-slavery figures are men of religion, what religious organization at the time and as a whole issued a proclamation against slavery in the US (a proclamation against slavery in Europe or Worldwide at this point was rather status quo, the US being one of the last of elite nations to have slavery at all).

Some secular organizations are problematic with overseas aid due to misguided values, but so are some religious organizations. For instance, several countries have banned all foreign aid workers because of religious aid organizations who have brought in people who hand out bibles against the express wishes of that country. Furthermore, religion has been organized and providing aid far longer than secular organizations, so it seems disingenuous to blame secularism for the failures of Africa.

Also, Catholicism defined absolutely everything during the time period you discuss. It was involved in absolutely everything and historians often debate whether it was ultimately responsible for advancing or hindering various good or bad events.

[fetishdj]

Catholicism has always been at least (if not more than) a century behind any modern modes of thought. This is because its leadership is entirely composed of old men. Fact is that a 'young' cardinal is still a fossil in his sixties and most of them are in their 70s before they even have a chance to have a look in as Pope. Mind you, this is very much in keeping with Hippocrates ideals which state that someone is not senile until they are 90...

So, they are always going to be conservative though Benedict is more so than many. John Paul was edging to more right wing views in the end, mind. Despite a career of being relatively liberal he made some very right wing statements at the end of his life. I suspect he was being more and more reliant on 'advisors', including the soon to be Pope Benedict.

It has indeed been demonstrated that many animal species use sex for companionship rather than/as well as procreation and that includes companionship with members of the same species. Dogs do it all the time (as a means of dominance -a male dog will dry hump another male dog) and Bonobo monkeys practically use sex as a means of saying hello.