Topping from the Bottom?

[Lisais mine]

well guys, what do you think? myth or reality?

[Euryleia]

I do think that it does exist--pushy bottoms who care more about their own gratification than any real interest in submission. However, I also think that it is all too often a cop-out by insecure and inexperience Tops who don't know how to control the scene or assert their will over another.

[Ozme52]

Clearly... and if we remember to include both genders, looking around the forum conversations, we realize that apparently "most" of the submissive men who come looking for dommes expect them to behave like pro-dommes, presumably to give them exactly what they want.

[DIXIE LASS]

I do think that it does exist--pushy bottoms who care more about their own gratification than any real interest in submission.

Euryleia,

Which is this person you call a "pushy bottom"?
1. a self-proclaimed sub
2. a self-proclaimed bottom

Isn't a bottom, by definition, supposed to "care more about their own gratification than any real interest in submission"?

DIXIE

[leah06]

There are a couple of recent threads about how to say no during a scene. This is not a big problem for me. Sometimes, though, I wish I could express a preference or ask to do something in a different way, and it's hard to figure out how to do it without seeming to top from the bottom. I've refused to do something at times rather than trying to modify it, which brings up another famous bdsm phrase - cutting off your nose to spite your face. Ooh, sexy. I wish some of the Dom/mes here had some advice about how to ask to do something differently, or less or whatever, without seeming like you're trying to control the scene. I mean, I guess in a certain way you are, but if it's the difference between doing something or not even trying it, maybe it would be nice to have a way to express that.

[BelovedPet]

There are a couple of recent threads about how to say no during a scene. This is not a big problem for me. Sometimes, though, I wish I could express a preference or ask to do something in a different way, and it's hard to figure out how to do it without seeming to top from the bottom. I've refused to do something at times rather than trying to modify it, which brings up another famous bdsm phrase - cutting off your nose to spite your face. Ooh, sexy. I wish some of the Dom/mes here had some advice about how to ask to do something differently, or less or whatever, without seeming like you're trying to control the scene. I mean, I guess in a certain way you are, but if it's the difference between doing something or not even trying it, maybe it would be nice to have a way to express that.

So what is the difference then? Not expressing a preference? If you express a modification, is this topping (from the bottom?)?

b

[Lisais mine]

isn't it funny how these threads all came up at once? the thread "Male submissives " is about the same thing I think. I think that it is wonderfull and correct to ask your dom for certain things, and to set limits and boundaries, but to expect the Dom/me to gratify you the way you want when you want- well, it is called Domination for a reason. and take it from me- Two doms, no matter how much they try or want to, can't have that much fun.it's a long story- I'll try to write a blog- but my exwife and I are both dom.

So it's real. how would you guys deal with it?

I see it as an excuse to break out the whip....

[leah06]

isn't it funny how these threads all came up at once? the thread "Male submissives " is about the same thing I think. I think that it is wonderfull and correct to ask your dom for certain things, and to set limits and boundaries, but to expect the Dom/me to gratify you the way you want when you want- well, it is called Domination for a reason. and take it from me- Two doms, no matter how much they try or want to, can't have that much fun.it's a long story- I'll try to write a blog- but my exwife and I are both dom.

So it's real. how would you guys deal with it?

I see it as an excuse to break out the whip....

I don't think this is entirely fair. Yes, if you expect the Dom/me to gratify you the way you want when you want, then you are topping from the bottom, and BTW, since you know this and feel so strongly about it, I wonder why you started this thread as a question? But there are times, say pushing limits, when it's perfectly reasonable for the sub to just say no, but it might be more enjoyable for everyone if s/he gave it a shot. And at those times, s/he might have some concerns that the DOM/ME CAN'T READ HIR MIND ABOUT! Maybe it makes the difference between a good scene and bad one, or a good scene or no scene. Maybe the sub would like to modify things a bit, in order to be able to participate. And maybe the Dom/me would prefer to know that rather than have the sub exercise hir right of refusal.

So, I repeat my question to Dom/mes that fall into this category. Dom/mes who prefer a miserable sub or one who won't try new stuff, move on. The rest of you, though, could you please tell me how you allow your sub to help you shift things during a scene? Obviously, it's better if you've discussed things beforehand but that doesn't always work out for a variety of reasons.

[TwistedTails]

<tosses 2 cents on the table>

Does topping from the bottom exist? Of course it does. But I also agree with Euryleia that sometimes it is the top not controlling the situation properly. BUT, respectfully asking for a modification, even mid-scene is not topping from the bottom to me.

A call of Yellow, or two fingers in the air if gagged, will always bring me to her side to find out what the matter is. If an adjustment needs to be made then we make it. If its a "special request" I will usually add it to the menu. There are two people involved, and we both need to find the play fulfilling.

[Lisais mine]

I don't think this is entirely fair. Yes, if you expect the Dom/me to gratify you the way you want when you want, then you are topping from the bottom, and BTW, since you know this and feel so strongly about it, I wonder why you started this thread as a question? But there are times, say pushing limits, when it's perfectly reasonable for the sub to just say no, but it might be more enjoyable for everyone if s/he gave it a shot. And at those times, s/he might have some concerns that the DOM/ME CAN'T READ HIR MIND ABOUT! Maybe it makes the difference between a good scene and bad one, or a good scene or no scene. Maybe the sub would like to modify things a bit, in order to be able to participate. And maybe the Dom/me would prefer to know that rather than have the sub exercise hir right of refusal.

So, I repeat my question to Dom/mes that fall into this category. Dom/mes who prefer a miserable sub or one who won't try new stuff, move on. The rest of you, though, could you please tell me how you allow your sub to help you shift things during a scene? Obviously, it's better if you've discussed things beforehand but that doesn't always work out for a variety of reasons.

well, I started the thread the way i did because I wasn't sure how I felt. and I dont think I feel too strongly. the whip thing, well that was a joke, kinda. maybe if I answer your question and see if that gives you a better idea of how I feel.
first, I have done the checklist thing with her, and I keep that list. I continually talk to her about things. I try to get into her head all the time. I have a good memory and take notes onto her list all the time. we discuss my fantasies and hers, and become fluent with each other's likes and dislikes.
now knowing her limits this way, I try to keep to a safe level. I ask her about pain levels. she knows that she should use her safe word. I reinforce that constantly. If I started to do something that was threatening to her, I would expect her to speak up. if it just wasn't hot enough for her, well, I think she would just have to trust that it would get better. then after the "session" she could talk to me. that hasn't come up though :)

I guess the difference to me is that a Dom should devote him/her self to their sub, trying to make the best experience for the sub. the sub needs to develoop the trust to let the dom be the dom.

[Ozme52]

We always talk about this as if the only opportunity to communicate the sub's desires is during the scene.

Fascetiouly, I'm asking... don't any of you talk about bdsm/kink/ 'D/s' any other times?

The point being that topping from the bottom is an in-scene event, discussing gratification and desires, needs and fantasies of both Dom and sub can occur virtually any other time without it being considered topping.

And as far as in-scene conversation is concerned, some of us dominants, are quite adept at coercing their subs into revealing both their darkest and their immediate needs during the scene. My girl doesn't need to top, doesn't get a chance to top, because I'm topping her mentally too, making her give herself to me body and mind, "forcing" her to follow me exactly to where she wants to go... (if that makes sense... lol )

[leo9]

There are a couple of recent threads about how to say no during a scene. This is not a big problem for me. Sometimes, though, I wish I could express a preference or ask to do something in a different way, and it's hard to figure out how to do it without seeming to top from the bottom.

Saying no is what the safeword "yellow" or "amber" is for. As in, "this isn't an emergency, but it's not working for me."

As for expressing a preference, my late slave-wife would have said things like "It'd be horrible if you twisted those clamps as well as pull them," or "I couldn't bear it if you used the cane instead of the flogger" - what we called "briar-patch suggestions," as in "don't throw me in the..."

[cadence]

Topping from the Bottom is not about a submissive discreetly suggesting something during a scene, or a submissive becoming uncomfortable and scared enough to use thier safeword/signal.
If a submissive is worried enough that they cannot have a voice during a time when they feel they should be quiet, then they shouldn't be there in the first place.

I find it funny everyone talks about communication, however being able to communicate during a scene seems to be regarded as some form of nastiness on the submissives part.
Topping from the Bottom begins to have so many various shades of grey, no one really knows what it means.


Topping from the Bottom to me is more of a form of manipulation and control the majority of the time.
Just as there are overbearing, too controlling Dominants, there are overbearing, controlling submissives, someone who is intent on having things exactly their way. And it doesn’t spill into the scene department either, they can manipulate the situation they are in according to what they want out of the relationship.




Isn't a bottom, by definition, supposed to "care more about their own gratification than any real interest in submission"?

DIXIE

A bottom does have a slight interest in submission, but only in the context of a kinky sex scene, other than that they have no other interest in submission outside of that context.

As a submissive it is all about me and I care more about my gratification than anyone else's. If I don't then I will always be unfulfilled and unhappy.
Sure I am there to please another, but in reality, if I'm not happy, then I cannot please someone else effectively.

Everything I do comes from my ideas. I say what I like, what I want, and what I want to try. That doesn't mean it will happen, but I do get to do most things. If I don't like something, I say so and again that doesn't mean I will not have to do it.
If something is truly uncomfortable for me, I may try it, but if I can't do it, then I won't. It will either be revisited at a later time, or modified to make it easier for me.
In my opinion that is not topping from the bottom, it's clarifying how I can manage with things and keep everyone happy.

If I continued to manipulate by never trying something new, or constantly trying to do something the same way over and over again because I like it, and cohercing him into letting me do it that way, I would say that would be Topping from the Bottom.
I wouldn't be a very good submissive if I can't broaden my horizons.

[leo9]

I find it funny everyone talks about communication, however being able to communicate during a scene seems to be regarded as some form of nastiness on the submissives part.

The hardest thing to teach my slaves is that keeping information from me - about their feelings, about their needs - is disobedience. A good slave tells hir Master the things he needs to know to get the best from hir.

[Vavoooom]

I agree with Cadence. Communication is key. I let my subs and slaves suggest things. Allowing them to express their needs and wants is essential. I love it when they share they desires and fantasies. I listen to them as they tell me about it. However, there is a difference between communicating your desires and fantasies and "topping from the bottom".

[BryansGrrrl]

As for expressing a preference, my late slave-wife would have said things like "It'd be horrible if you twisted those clamps as well as pull them," or "I couldn't bear it if you used the cane instead of the flogger" - what we called "briar-patch suggestions," as in "don't throw me in the..."I just LOVE Uncle Remus. And this is a great suggestion!


The hardest thing to teach my slaves is that keeping information from me - about their feelings, about their needs - is disobedience. A good slave tells hir Master the things he needs to know to get the best from hir. This really is a difficult thing. I still have difficulty in denying Him something that I even suspect that He might want. If I am not interested in pursuing something... I sort of wait to see what He feels about it before voicing my own opinion. It is a very bad habit that I'm trying very hard to break myself of. :)

[leo9]

This really is a difficult thing. I still have difficulty in denying Him something that I even suspect that He might want. If I am not interested in pursuing something... I sort of wait to see what He feels about it before voicing my own opinion. It is a very bad habit that I'm trying very hard to break myself of. :)

Like I said, think of it as service. Being honest and open about your feelings - even the negative ones - is another way of making yourself available to your Master. You wouldn't hide your body from Him: don't hide your mind either.

Look at it this way: saying "This doesn't work for me" isn't telling Him not to do it. He might even take it as an encouragement to do it more, just to be cruel :) The important thing is to tell Him what's really going on.

[StormKat]

The hardest thing to teach my slaves is that keeping information from me - about their feelings, about their needs - is disobedience. A good slave tells hir Master the things he needs to know to get the best from hir.

This scenario was a sticking point for me with the dom who introduced me to this stuff. I've always been a total rules lawyer, always looking for the out or playing the angle in any situation, controlling my responses to lead where I wanted. Once I fell into this dom/sub thing, that included what info I shared with him. I'd answer his questions, never lying, but perhaps shading what I said. He caught onto my natural inclination pretty quickly though, and began requiring me to fully & completely disclose everything. Needless to say, it was a rough adjustment, certainly part of our dominance struggle, but I eventually got used to giving him access to all of my thoughts...

[Euryleia]

We always talk about this as if the only opportunity to communicate the sub's desires is during the scene.

Fascetiouly, I'm asking... don't any of you talk about bdsm/kink/ 'D/s' any other times?


I'm going to bump Oz's reply here because it is a very good point. I talk to my girl a lot out of playtime and get her to share her fantasies, her fears, her dreams, etc. I read her journal entries and I even have her write out stories, all of which help me tailor scenes that works to satisfy us both.

That's not her Topping from below, that's just building a successful relationship.

[thir]

Euryleia,


Isn't a bottom, by definition, supposed to "care more about their own gratification than any real interest in submission"?

DIXIE

I think that depends very much on where you are and what you put into the various expressions. I do not get the impression that there is that much consensus.

[thir]

well guys, what do you think? myth or reality?

Both, depending, IMO. Some have a script of what they want done to them. But on the other side of the continuum there is also a school that thinks that any ideas on the side of the subs are topping from the bottom.

[Demon Dom]

I have yet to meet a submissive (male or female) that I can't top (and I was a "whore" in my twenties). Topping from the bottom is a manipulation power struggle technique, simple as that. The question is not if she can be topped, but whether the dom considers said submissive worthy to him of the time needed to break her out of that habit. All submissives test their doms, it is up to me how far I let her take it, before "yanking the chain" and showing her that she was allowed to get away with stuff only for my own amusement.

The difference between communication issues and topping from the bottom is honesty of the submissive in her communication and sincerity of her submission, at the least that means trying or wanting to submit. It can also happen in cases where a "sub" is better suited to a different role and with those who get lost in it, while their need isn't submission but kinky sex.

[AdrianaAurora]

Just for the record, I never top from the bottom.

[Pearlgem]

Just for the record, I never top from the bottom.

*facility to breathe temporarily removed*

[jeanne]

*facility to breathe temporarily removed*

Hahahahahaha!!! That's hilarious. (And I'm sooooo stealing it. :D)

[Stone]

Well here goes my 2 cents on this.....
There will always be some degree of topping form the bottom its just they way things are. To think not is foolhardy. Lets look at the relationship as a whole to answer this. First off a dom can not be a dom without a sub. A sub chooses to whom and when she/he submits and even how. Plus face the fact a submissive that doesnt get what she/he wants will not be your submisive for long.....so yes topping form the bottom will always be there in some way. depends on what kind of sub you are dealing with to painsluts/masochists may top form the bottom to get their ass throughly caned...which is what they wanted in the first place..then there are when they break simple rules and know waht the punishment is .. it is about how well you know that specific submissve...yes topping form the bottom exists and goes on to some degree in all relationships

[wind_dancer{W_W}]

Well here goes my 2 cents on this.....
There will always be some degree of topping form the bottom its just they way things are. To think not is foolhardy. Lets look at the relationship as a whole to answer this. First off a dom can not be a dom without a sub. A sub chooses to whom and when she/he submits and even how. Plus face the fact a submissive that doesnt get what she/he wants will not be your submisive for long.....so yes topping form the bottom will always be there in some way. depends on what kind of sub you are dealing with to painsluts/masochists may top form the bottom to get their ass throughly caned...which is what they wanted in the first place..then there are when they break simple rules and know waht the punishment is .. it is about how well you know that specific submissve...yes topping form the bottom exists and goes on to some degree in all relationships

This is something i have thought about many times and i agree

[Bobbitsj]

As a slave am I topping if I express my needs and desires to my Mistress? Is this really topping? If I can't express myself or my needs then am I nothing more than a doormat?

[preordainedbad]

You are a slave, who has no control ,if any slave say they agree with top from the bottom, they must look at them self as subs not slave, a slave has nothing they are nothing, and yes a doormat one so lovingly honor!!!

[wind_dancer{W_W}]

You are a slave, who has no control ,if any slave say they agree with top from the bottom, they must look at them self as subs not slave, a slave has nothing they are nothing, and yes a doormat one so lovingly honor!!!

i must say that i think you are the first Dom i have EVER heard say that they actually desire a doormat... hmm well to each His/Her own i assume.

[denuseri]

Well everyone has thier opinion as they say.........lol

<<is a slave, more so a kajira

which is far beyound any "doormat" around.

If I top from the bottom it is only becuase my owner allows it.

I know full well his will can crush mine easily. Yet I also know he wants a spirited girl not some foot rest that would easily boor him.

That being said, it is also my duty to push, we are in a way at war my Owner and I.

Even though I am forced to yield in the end everytime it doesnt mean the struggle for dominance ends the first time I am put on my knees, oh nooo, thats is only the begining.

Say what you want about topping from the bottom. I believe it is a natural part of the poccess.

It is my humble experienced opinion the only ones bitching about it are the not so dominant people that like to call themselves as such even though they really are not.

A weak dominant often doesnt know how to handle a real challenge, and often times a lazy one that is also weak , is the only kind that desires a "doormat" as opposed to any challenge at all.

'"There is a difference' laughed Hassan, 'between the pride of a free woman and the pride of the slave girl. The pride of a free woman is the pride of a woman who feels herself to be the equal of a man.
The pride of the slave girl is the pride of the girl who knows that no other woman is the equal of herself.' " Tribesmen of Gor, page 333

[Kahlann]

denuseri, I always love reading your posts. Informative, well thought out, and colorful... oh the color.

[Arria]

if you expect the Dom/me to gratify you the way you want when you want, then you are topping from the bottom,

Very well put, rachel, I see it the same way.

I had no idea there were different perceptions of "topping from the bottom".

Frankly, I am horrified that any sub should consider it out of place to voice feelings/likes/dislikes of any sort with her dom.
Equally crazy in my eyes is the idea that a sub should not speak up if she is afraid of, or terribly uncomfortable, with anything.
I also agree to the statement that doms are not able to read minds (even though some are so good in judging their sub´s reactions that they manage to get rather close to a mind-reading effect).

So I will just describe what I see as topping from the bottom, and how I go about it.
I usually do it when I am underplayed. To clarify: My dom does not feel like playing when he is stressed. I am the complete opposite. Far from providing only some superficial sexual gratification, a scene reduces my stress levels and frees my mind of things that bother me. If I am not played with for too long a period of time, I become moody, everything is getting on my nerves, I get extremely short-tempered, and this can go on to a level that makes it hard even for myself to "be in my skin".

Now, as we all know, hard times usually affect a couple equally (at least, if you are together in r/l). It happens that I go unplayed with longer than is comfortable or durable for me. It is in such situations that I try and get my dom play with me.
And here is where rachel´s statement kicks in. My dom and I have been together close to 11 years now. This means he knows me very well, he knows what I like best, he knows what I hate, and he knows what will get the desired effect out of me.
My favourite toy is the single tail. Now if I either tease him or simply say that I am underplayed and feel absolutely horrible, he could simply take my favourite toy and beat the crap out of me.
While I would probably enjoy this for the moment, it would also create a loss of respect on my side, because he allowed me to manipulate him into simply doing what I want at that moment.
Hence, what he does in such situations, is give me something. Something that - if he is stressed - does not take much of an effort for him, but serves the purpose. Sometimes it is something that he likes very much, while I don´t. Much of it goes into the humiliation zone (like a rim job). Some of it is simply plain painful (like dragging me around on my nipples while scolding me for being a nuisance).

While these things might not be what I consider my preferrable actions, they always work out in setting my mind back into a relaxed state, and give me the feeling I am taken care of/being cared about.
It might sound sick, but I have to admit the more un-welcome, painful, and humiliating the action in question feels to me during the scene, the more calm and relaxed I am when it is over.

If, however, I feel that he is in no state to give his heart to a scene, but I need some stress reduction nevertheless, I simply ask for a few hard face slaps, which he does not mind to give, and which do the job perfectly.

As for general talk about likes and dislikes: We usually cover those well in advance of any scene, so they don´t become a problem in the middle of a scene.
It has not happened yet that I was put through an experience that was really too much for me.
If, however, a certain thing happened during a scene that seems overpowering/too hard/too uncomfortable for me, I bring that up during the "after-talk". Though none of those were ever physical/had to do with pain - they usually originate in actions that go into my humiliation zone.

I hope this makes some sense.

[damyanti]

Ok, so I just had to Google "rim job".... :eek: (both ways)

A "rim job" is a slang term for analingus. That means oral stimulation of the anus.

A lot of people of all sexual orientations and genders enjoy analingus, but it is a form of oral sex that is very risky in terms of disease transmission. A lot of infections are contracted fecal-orally, like Hepatitis A, shigellosis (particularly caused by Shigella flexneri), pathogenic E. coli, salmonellosis ... the list goes on and on. Microscopic traces of feces on the anus can get into the mouth of the partner giving analingus. If those feces harbor anything particularly pathogenic, that can mean sickness (with diarrhea, bloody diarrhea, vomiting and fevers as major symptoms).

But like I said, a lot of people enjoy analingus. After all, the anus and perineum both have a lot of highly-sensitive nerve endings, and touch stimulation can be sexually pleasurable. Analingus can be done safely if the anus is covered with a dental dam or sheet of plastic cling film. A dental dam is a sheer square sheet of latex. It can be stretched over the anus to keep fecal germs away from the partner performing the analingus. The tongue should only come in contact with the dam or cling film.


No, thank you. LOL
Though you totally rock Arria, :d.

[Arria]

lol. We are sexually exclusive, so if one of us had anything like bloody diarrhea or anything similar, that would become obvious in time.

Moreover, in order to do that, I have him go potty before, and then take a long, nice bath, because in an un-washed condition, I have major issues with the... um... smell. *shudders again*

[Arria]

Sorry, double post.

[Kahlann]

I didn't know this had become an infectious diseases class lol.

Arria, thank you for such a detailed post. My dom is just getting into dominating someone, and often I find I'm the one calling the shots. It's a little frustrating but I'm hopeful he can learn how to contain my wild streak.

[denuseri]

Ok, so I just had to Google "rim job".... :eek: (both ways)

A "rim job" is a slang term for analingus. That means oral stimulation of the anus.

A lot of people of all sexual orientations and genders enjoy analingus, but it is a form of oral sex that is very risky in terms of disease transmission. A lot of infections are contracted fecal-orally, like Hepatitis A, shigellosis (particularly caused by Shigella flexneri), pathogenic E. coli, salmonellosis ... the list goes on and on. Microscopic traces of feces on the anus can get into the mouth of the partner giving analingus. If those feces harbor anything particularly pathogenic, that can mean sickness (with diarrhea, bloody diarrhea, vomiting and fevers as major symptoms).

But like I said, a lot of people enjoy analingus. After all, the anus and perineum both have a lot of highly-sensitive nerve endings, and touch stimulation can be sexually pleasurable. Analingus can be done safely if the anus is covered with a dental dam or sheet of plastic cling film. A dental dam is a sheer square sheet of latex. It can be stretched over the anus to keep fecal germs away from the partner performing the analingus. The tongue should only come in contact with the dam or cling film.


No, thank you. LOL
Though you totally rock Arria, :d.

Actualy when practicing analingus and or ass to mouth with a regular partner in a monogamus relationship taking the proper precautions the risk of getting many of the above are allmost non-existant.

here is but one of many threads on this type of subject for those that are interested.

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18694

Just to stay on topic:

Getting your dominant to preform it on you might be considered topping from the bottom by some. LOL.

:1850:

[BlackDom32]

I for one believe that topping from the bottom is possible and usually in the case where the "bottom" isn't really trying to be submissive, they want the allure of being submissive without actually having to listen. So they manipulate the scene into what they by being disobedient or however they might otherwise manipulate their "master". To some degree I chalk it up to inexperience on one side and an unclear definition of what they actually want on the other.