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Carpe Coma
02-09-2009, 04:07 PM
This covers a lot of ground from the idea of money up to the credit market, why the seizure is bad, and a lot of other things. It's a primer for today's hot issue.

So let's talk money.

Money.

"There is nothing quite as wonderful as money.
There is nothing quite as beautiful as cash.
Some people say it's folly, but I'd rather have the lolly,
because with money you can make a splash!" - "The Money Song"

What is money? It's not the dollar bills in your wallet. Those are just representations of money. It's not the numbers in your bank account. That is just a measure of money. Money is the promise of work, it is potential energy, it is time, sweat, blood, and tears made transferable. When you pay for a car you aren't paying for the car itself, as the car has no inherent value. You are paying for the work that everyone up the supply chain put into that car. People accept your money in trade because of the promise that others will also accept that money in trade for their efforts. Without that promise, there is no money. Remember that when you spend a dollar or the taxman cometh, that money just doesn't disappear (generally), it gets used to inspire someone else to expend effort, and then another, and another, and so on. Money flows through the economy. More accurately, the flow of money is the economy. Makes those financial dominants seem a bit less hokey, doesn't it?

Credit.

"You load sixteen tons, and what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt" - "Sixteen Tons"

We all know what credit is. It's money today in exchange for the promise of (more) money later. Hmmm, there's that "promise" word again. That might be important. So credit is the promise of the promise of work. Isn't that essentially the same thing as "the promise of work"? It means that as long as both promises are good, credit is money. Now here's the stinker: over 90% of all monetary value exists as some form of credit. Some of it is direct credit like a bank loan. Most of it is indirect credit, like the equity in your home. It's indirect credit as the monetary value is still based on the premise that someone will pay that money for it. So it isn't a credit you owe to a particular entity, but a credit that economy as a whole owes you. So if one of those promises behind credit gets undermined, large sums of money stop existing.

Banks, Money Supply, and the Credit Market.

"Money, its a gas.
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash.
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think Ill buy me a football team." - "Money"

The money you have stored in you bank account is a credit as well. It is money that the bank has promised to pay you when you ask for it. A savings account is not you storing money, it is you loaning money to the bank. So that money isn't sitting in a vault, the vast majority of it is on loan to someone else. Banks try to only keep enough to meet the reserve requirement for on demand withdrawals. Through this, banks act to multiply the money supply. Which is why businesses, start-ups, and individuals can get the loans they need and why our economy can be worth $10 trillion when there is only ~$800 billion in cash. The banks can do this because the vast majority of the time, you don't need your money. So if everyone tried to get their money at once, there wouldn't be enough money on hand to accommodate more than a small percentage of them. When this happens, it is called a run on the bank and will force the bank into default. Washington Mutual was brought down just this way, with a run on the bank to the tune of $40 billion. Banks only work because people have confidence in them, because people have confidence in their promises.

Another way to look at it is restaurant where the customers provide their own seats and store them there. Some people will bring a seat there (make a deposit) and others will sit down and eat (make a withdrawl/loan). Let's say you have brought a seat. Even if you eat there every day, you don't need the seat the vast majority of the time. A restaurant doesn't do so well when they have a bunch of habitually idle seats. So the restaurant sells the seat out to other patrons so they can use it while you aren't. The loaning of those seats allows the restaurant to feed many more people than it would otherwise. Now if everyone who owned a seat tried to come in to eat, there wouldn't be enough seats left as a lot of them would still be occupied by the patrons the restaurant had loaned them out to. Those without seats get to go hungry.

As banks try to keep as little money on hand as possible they are almost always in a state of having too much or too little money on hand. In order to rectify that situation, they go to the credit market and buy or sell money as needed. This market works because banks have confidence in each other's ability to pay their debts.

The Making of the Credit Crunch

"Money, its a hit.
Dont give me that do goody good bullshit.
Im in the high-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a lear jet." - "Money"

This whole debacle was triggered by the housing market. The housing market isn't the only thing to blame, as there is plenty of blame to go around. This was just the first domino to topple. Post tech-bubble, a whole bunch of people got the asinine idea that the housing market was immune from going down. So, smarting from the tech-crash, they invested in real estate. This pushed prices up, which in turn lead more people to buy in, and so on and so on. Now banks are a major player in the real estate market as most purchases are financed through them. So these banks are now sitting on a crap load of mortgages and someone has the bright idea: "Let's package these mortgage payments and sell them! We can customize or cash flows that way. If we are short on cash, we sell the rights to some payments and if we are long, we buy some". So these payments were packaged and sold as "Mortgage Backed Securities" or MBSs. In their zeal, these MBSs and other credit instruments got more and more complicated to the point that few had any real idea what they were buying. This was all good until the housing bubble started to pop. Then the defaults started to roll in. Suddenly, banks were on the hook for mortgages and agreements that they had no real knowledge of and no way of knowing if they were going to get paid nor how much they would owe. The banks also knew that all the other banks had been doing the same thing. No one knew who was on the hook for what. So now everyone wanted money and no one wanted to lend it out of fear that A: they would need the money and wouldn't be able to get it, and B: that the person they were lending to wouldn't be able to pay them back. The banks lost confidence in each other, so the credit market seized and interest rates shot up.

Shrinking Money Supply.

"Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today.
But if you ask for a raise its no surprise that they're
Giving none away." - "Money"

"My money deposit is guaranteed by the government up to $100K, why should I care about the credit market seizing and bank trouble? Let those rich Wall Street fuckers flounder and fail" Because when the banks stop loaning to each other, they restrict their loaning to everyone else as well. This means that the money supply shrinks, so money becomes more scarce for everyone, including the companies that pay your salary and the people that buy your products. Less money is now flowing, so the economy shrinks. Their pain quickly becomes your pain.

Depression Psychology.

"Prosperity is just around the corner." - Herbert Hoover

"Alright, so the money supply drops. Supply and demand dictates that goods should simply fall in price as money becomes more valuable. I don't see how this leads to economic trouble." In small cases, there would just be an adjustment period with an attached recession. The trigger point for something serious is when the psychology of scarcity sets. What happens when something gets scarce enough? People hoard it. The same goes for money. As each person hoards, it encourages the next person downstream to hoard as well, because now they are getting less money. The result of all that hoarding is large sums of money being pulled out of circulation. As the flow of money is the economy, well now, that flow just got a whole lot smaller. The only way to break the hoard mentality is for the flow to pick up again so people feel safer about spending the money that they do have. Without intervention, this can be a long process as everyone waits for their coffers to reach a certain point before allowing more money to flow down the line. The idea behind deficit spending as an anti-depression measure is that it helps flood the economy with money to break the perception of scarcity. This is what happened through the government spending in the great depression. It started in earnest with the alphabet soup and finished with the massive spending and deficits incurred with WWII.

The Problem With Deficits.

"Giving money and power to the government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys" - P.J. O'Rourke

As deficit spending became acceptable, the government had no control set against spending more and more money. To cut government spending is to piss someone off. To piss someone off is to hurt re-election chances. On the other hand, increasing government spending makes people happy (more often than not). Not to mention that no one wanted to be the one who let the economy slow down on their watch. What a death sentence that is. So what's a politician to do? The ones that manage to stay in office are the ones that continue to increase spending. Notice what happened when there was a surplus. The general response on the hill wasn't "We should cut taxes" or "We should pay down on our debt", instead it was "How should we spend it?". As the government was already spending more than it took in taxes, the push to spend ever more meant ever larger deficits. This poses a big threat to the government's ability to use deficit spending as a stimulus measure because the government can spend itself into a corner and lack the ability to pay for more borrowed funds. It's rather like living paycheck to paycheck. Say you get a pay cut, so you get a loan to cover the shortfall of funds. Then you get a pay raise, but instead of using that money to pay back the loan, you use it to convince the bank to give you a bigger loan and then you go back to living paycheck to paycheck. Thusly, if you hit economic problems again, you are in even worse financial shape than before. So why not just raise taxes to fund the increased spending?

Taxation

"Money, its a crime.
Share it fairly but dont take a slice of my pie." - "Money"

Everyone hates taxation. However, for a stable monetary economy, taxation is needed. Why? Because making a regular profit means that money is being concentrated. The higher the concentration of money, the less of it that is free flowing, so the higher likelihood that the perception of scarcity will set in and the less money there is available to inspire the efforts which keep the economy going. So for the good of the economy as a whole, not only do the rich have to get taxed, they have to get taxed at a higher rate than everyone else in order to break up the concentration of wealth. Now, this doesn't mean that there should be a communist standard of everyone being paid the same. This has it's own problems.

First problem is the issue of motivation. If everyone gets the same reward, there is no incentive to try harder, to be better. Taxation also discourages money from changing hands as we only tax money when that happens. So the higher the tax rate, the less people will care to try and the rarer profitable opportunities are.

The second problem is capital efficiency. The rich, the banks, the corporations, act as intermediaries between the supply of money and the demand. Because of this, they both act to provide more efficient capital movement (because you can go to a much smaller group of people to raise the funds that you want) and serve as a filter against poor capital allocation (in most cases, they got there because they have some idea what constitutes a wise allocation of funds and it is in there best interests not to loan money out to bad ideas, else they wouldn't stay rich). So having some rich people does carry an economic benefit.

Good taxation has to walk the line between ensuring that people are still motivated to improve and transact, and ensuring that the concentration of wealth doesn't get out of hand.

Bringing It All Together.

If you managed to read and understand this far, you now understand more about money than most people will learn in their entire lives. Yes, I have skipped and glossed over a lot, however I wanted to keep this short (hah!).

What does all this say about the "bailout"? That the bailout was probably better than doing nothing, but not terribly effective. What the re-capitalization did was address the banks need for money to cover for their shortfalls and worries about what they may be on the hook for. However, it only indirectly addressed the confidence issue which lead to the credit market locking up in the first place. The banks still don't know who is on the hook nor how safe their competitors are (just that some of them are safer then they were), so the credit market is still pretty stiff. The money doesn't really increase the money supply any as the banks will hoard it, expecting the worst. The other problem, is that once someone gets bailed out, they will expect to be bailed out again. This was a harmful precedent for the future of our financial industry.

What about the "bad bank" idea? This idea assumes that banks know which debt is going to be bad, that they are going to be able to get something like a decent price for their debt, and that the government can afford to buy enough of it up. The truth of the matter is that a lot of them don't know, they will probably only be able to sell it at fire sale prices, and the government may not be able to afford to buy enough of it. This means that there will still be quite a bit of pain as that credit disintegrates and the money implied disappears. Though it probably beats another bailout. However, such a bank would need to be of limited duration.

The promises that make the foundation of our economy have been given a good hard kick. The best solution must directly address the confidence issues. Both the confidence of the banks, and the confidence of the population as a whole.

denuseri
02-10-2009, 05:40 PM
It will take forever for me to respond to each point.

Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying the economy wouldnt have taken a nose dive if it wasnt for the problem that came about in the real estate market and if so was it not cuased by a series of natural events (huricanes) in conjunction with bad business foresight?

mkemse
02-10-2009, 06:32 PM
It will take forever for me to respond to each point.

Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying the economy wouldnt have taken a nose dive if it wasnt for the problem that came about in the real estate market and if so was it not cuased by a series of natural events (huricanes) in conjunction with bad business foresight?

Not sure on that, but everything SEEMS to have started with the Sub Prime Crisis and snow balled to where we are now

Carpe Coma
02-10-2009, 11:07 PM
It would have dived eventually. Too many people were engaging in stupid and/or shortsighted practices for things to have been sustained. People were getting into agreements they didn't understand (when you hear talk about "unwinding" agreements, they mean actually finding out who owes what to whom), lying to their risk assessment people/software, and getting way over leveraged. Another thing that didn't help was the removal of the uptick rule on short sales. There was a lot of things converging on this debacle. The real estate pop was just the domino that fell first, and as it was closely tied to the credit markets and banks, they felt it first. We may have ended in a somewhat different mess, but it still would have been a mess. There is "bad business foresight" and there is outright stupidity/malfeasance. Just like a depression is from the psychology of scarcity, a bubble is from the psychology of a mob. I could probably make a post as long as that last one just talking about the things that contributed.

The hurricanes didn't help, but that certainly didn't pop the bubble. Yes, Florida is one of the states which suffered the greatest housing decline, but California and Michigan were right up at the top as well. The first big glaring sign was the summer of 2007. That's when the MBS market locked up. I think hardly anyone expected this to propagate like it has. Instead, almost everyone was standing around going "wtf?".

MMI
02-11-2009, 06:34 PM
This is heavy, so one thing at a time.

I was taught that money was a store of wealth, not that it was a promise of work. And I understood coin and banknotes were mere tokens representing wealth, making wealth easily transferrable in return for goods or labour. The exchange of goods and labour according to fluctuating levels of supply and demand (plus fiscal intervention) was what I believed the economy to be.

How does that tie in with your description of Money?

Carpe Coma
02-12-2009, 01:48 AM
This is heavy, so one thing at a time.

I was taught that money was a store of wealth, not that it was a promise of work. And I understood coin and banknotes were mere tokens representing wealth, making wealth easily transferrable in return for goods or labour. The exchange of goods and labour according to fluctuating levels of supply and demand (plus fiscal intervention) was what I believed the economy to be.

How does that tie in with your description of Money?

Poorly, because part of it isn't quite right. The idea that money is a store of wealth is much easier to teach and understand, but it falls apart under prodding. This is partially due to the idea assuming that the money can always be redeemed. It also tends to lead to the false idea that the total amount of wealth is a constant. Supply and demand aren't affected, however you do have to ditch the simplifications that are used when they teach intro economics classes.

What is wealth? Wealth is the result of work times a value modifier. All creation of wealth requires work. In the case of captured wealth (like claiming a forest), it is the amount of work it would take to replicate it times the value modifier. How much wealth created through work depends on the value placed on the output. Me throwing a five pound weight up in the air 2,000 times may be a lot of work, but as there is no value to it, doesn't create any wealth. If no amount of work could satisfactorily replicate something, we tend to consider it priceless.

"Value" is entirely an issue of perception, while work is not. Pushing a two ton car for a mile results in the same amount of work done regardless of who is doing the pushing. How much value that work had is determined by the observer. We can measure work directly and objectively, while we can only measure value by how much work someone is willing to do (or give up). Since value is an individual variable, my conception of "wealthy" isn't going to be the same as your conception "wealthy".

Now on to why money isn't a store of wealth. Let's say we take up a collection, gather 1 trillion dollars, give it to you, and then deposit you with the money in the middle of some hunter-gather tribe totally isolated from the rest of the world for the rest of eternity. Has the place we took you from gotten less wealthy (not counting your physical absence)? No. Has the place you have been dropped off at gotten more wealthy? Maybe a smidgen, but definitely nowhere near a trillion dollars more. Does that money mean that you are still wealthy? Sure, you could have a great big bonfire, but it's use, it's value, beyond that is essentially gone (toilet paper, anyone?). So since the moving of money in/out of a system doesn't change the wealth, money can not be a store of wealth. The money became essentially worthless when the social contract could not be fulfilled. What good is money if no one will accept it in trade?

However, what has changed? The value on the money left behind has gone up, while the total wealth has remained constant. So each dollar is buying more of something. So money isn't wealth, that leaves value or work. If it is value, it can only be measured by work someone is willing to do or the given up results of work. As money has essentially no inherent value, the only reason someone would accept money in exchange is because it has the promise of value to someone else, because of the promise that they are willing to do or give up work for it that we might value. So money is the promise of work.

If money *was* a store of wealth, then there could be no such thing as a mutually beneficial trade. All free trade would be neutral at best as the amounts of wealth exchanged would at best be the same (as only a fool would knowingly pay more wealth for something than he received).

Possibly an easier way to look at this would be to start from a barter system. In a barter system, all that gets traded is the result of work (or something that would take work to create) or the promise of more work (any kind of service). It is always work for work. All money is, is a means of standardizing one side of the transaction in order to facilitate trade. In order for that standardization to function, there has to be an expectation, a social contract, a social promise, that other people will accept that money in trade for their work.

The economy is about trade, that is true. However, goods and services are work realized. So you could argue that they are money exercised. Since money is the constant factor, it is conceptually much easier to look at a monetary economy as the flow of money, rather than goods and services. Not to mention that looking at it through the lens of "goods and services" makes it rather complicated to process things like finance and investing, where money is frequently exchanged for... money.

Perhaps I should write a book...

fetishdj
02-12-2009, 04:28 AM
Personal opinion: All the above is true but one important thing was neglected - the role of the media.

Now, I am all for free speech (I would not, for example, say that any piece of news should be suppressed or censored) but it did seem to me that the media in this case turned a minor credit crunch into what is now an official recession. By stirring up people who did not fully understand the economy (and I don't pretend to fully understand it and I think few do who do not already work in the financial industry) into panicking over the 'impending recession due to the credit crunch' they caused them to make rash decisions, withdraw funds and do other things which, in effect, speeded up the development of said recession.

At the risk of using Dilbertesque managerial cliches: The financial market goes in cycles or boom and bust, often quite rapidly. One thing I have never understood is people not seeming to realise this. Ok, stock prices are low, house prices are low.... this means it is a time to buy and hold onto said stocks/property until the market recovers when you sell at a profit. It seems quite simple... but then I suppose there is the problem if everyone holds onto these stocks then the market suffers...

Master Eq
02-12-2009, 08:47 PM
I have to agree with you dj. I happen to work for one of the "Big 3" (credit bureaus that is). Everyday i sit down one-on-one with people who are so conserned that they will pay alot of money to speak with me about what is going on. Being on the inside of the credit crunch, i have to agree that the media hyped it up. I sat down with a couple just today who had recently gotten married and they really wanted to buy a home. They started telling me that they paid all of their credit cards on time, and had only been late on a few payments, yet they couldnt understand why their credit score was low and they were not approved by the bank. I explained to them that 2 years ago, that score would have gotten them a very good intrest rate, and their wouldnt have been anything to worry about. However when the word got out about a credit crunch, people rushed to get their money from banks, just like when the rumor about a fuel shortage had people rushing to fill up every container they had. Anyways this couple's credit score had not gone up even though everything was paid on time. I had to try to explain that lendors are concerned with payment history, in turn how much money they can make off a particular person.

So to anyone concerned about their credit, you can contact me and i will give you some basic thoughts of ways to improve yourself and improve your chances of surviving this crunch. No charge to my friends here in the lifestyle.

Carpe Coma
02-15-2009, 10:01 PM
I explained to them that 2 years ago, that score would have gotten them a very good intrest rate, and their wouldnt have been anything to worry about.


Two years ago, credit was arguably way too easy to get and that this was a major indicator that something was amiss.

I agree that the media definitely had a role. The second there was negative economic news, "depression" was plastered everywhere. The media is like a gossipy neighbor and should be treated as such. It thrives off of attention, knows the best way to that is to spread drama everywhere, and in it's zeal tends to leave wisdom and accuracy in the dust. However, if I recall correctly, the credit markets locked up before the looming credit issue was public knowledge. So, they can't really take the blame for the initial lock-up.


At the risk of using Dilbertesque managerial cliches: The financial market goes in cycles or boom and bust, often quite rapidly. One thing I have never understood is people not seeming to realise this. Ok, stock prices are low, house prices are low.... this means it is a time to buy and hold onto said stocks/property until the market recovers when you sell at a profit. It seems quite simple... but then I suppose there is the problem if everyone holds onto these stocks then the market suffers...

Indeed. Some people do realize this, and those that take advantage of it tend to end up a lot better off in the long run. It requires courage to buy in when the market has gone south, and most people don't have that kind of courage when it come to their money. Not to mention it does require having the money to spare during the downturn *grin*

MMI
02-17-2009, 07:25 AM
I'm some way back in this thread due to my infrequent visits, but I'm an interested party, so maybe you'll indulge me if I ask you to retrace a few steps.

You have explained money as a promise of labour or work, arguing that all wealth has to be created by work: even diamonds lying around have to be gathered up - and that's work (my example).

However, none of the authorities I have consulted even refer to money as representing a right to call upon a cetain amount of labour, although they might allow that you can obtain labour in exchange for money. But that, I believe, is not the same thing.

I had similar thoughts myself, although not well formulated due to my ignorance. But I did wonder how money could represent a unit of labour when people's work is valued so differently. A woman is paid less than a man for the same work. A young person does not command as much as an older person. An African sells the produce from his field for a few pence: maybe a year's work. Western farmers earn that much in hours or days. A soccer player earns as much in a week as a teacher earns in a year.

If a unit of labour is so imprecisely valued, how can money, which has a definite, if volatile, value represent it?

I haven't read far into your lengthy original post yet, so I don't know where you're going with this, but if you're basing your arguments on money being the same thing as work, or a right to call upon labour, I'm far from convinced that you have a case.

As you go on to say that credit is also a call aupon or a right to labour, I am even more sceptical. Credit is not so much a promise of work or anything else, but is an expression if the borrower's future ability to repay: "Credo" = "I believe". If a lender owns wealth, and he believes a borrower will be able to repay him, he will be willing to transfer his wealth - probably in the form of money - to the borrower temporarily, so that the borrower can do whatever ha wants to do with it.

I admit that I never prgressed very far with my studies in economics, and if you feel I am in water that is way too deep for me, please say so.

MMI
02-20-2009, 05:18 AM
Moving on to you comments about banks, I can easily understand your statement that money deposited with a bank is credit as well. It is, as you say, the bank borrowing from us, and that money is re-lent by the bank in the way you describe. All very straightforward.

Long ago – in the nineteenth century, probably, banks discovered that if they lent every penny they borrowed, they would rapidly run into deep trouble. For this reason, they formulated two principles of lending (there may have been others, but these two will do for present purposes): Borrow long and lend short (so that money would be returned to the bank before you wanted to withdraw your deposit), and only lend a proportion of the total amount deposited. I have no idea what proportion was used, so let’s fall back on the famous 80:20 rule. If I deposit £100, the bank will lend £80 and will retain £20 in liquid funds. The borrower of the £80 will deposit the money into his account (or he will spend the money, and the seller will deposit it) and the bank will then relend £64 and retain £16. £51 of that £64 is relent, and then £41, and so on. After 20 or so cycles, the amount available to lend is less than £1, but the total of loans created by my £100 is almost £400.

Money for nothing. Let’s say the bank pays 3% for deposits and charges 7.5% for loans and overdrafts. Over the course of a year, my £100 and the subsequent deposits in the cycle described will produce about £12, while borrowers will collectively pay about £30 to the bank. £18 profit just for being there. However, the extra lending will hopefully have produced more profits for industry and more jobs for workers. Profits and jobs that might never have been created otherwise. So each cycle produces more real wealth (or the further means of producing it).

Most credit is supported by real wealth or assets in another form: only the government can create money without creating wealth.

If I wanted my hundred back, there would be a lot of disappointed borrowers, but the £20 the bank held back, and the 20% set aside with each subsequent loan, should provide enough to meet routine withdrawals. After 20 cycles, there will be just £100 set aside. Only if there was a run on the bank would this money be inadequate, and the bank would have to meet the extra demand by borrowing from other banks and lenders.

If just one bank experienced a run, and borrowed form others, then the amount of money available everywhere would reduce. That in turn would make things difficult for other banks, and so, in a worst case scenario, the run could spread.

“Banks only work because people have confidence in them, because people have confidence in their promises.” That’s perfectly true – “credit” is Latin for “he believes”, and the promise on Bank of England notes demonstrates this perfectly: I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of five pounds. That used to mean, five pounds in gold coin. If I tried to hold the Bank to that promise now, I’d be laughed all the way out of Threadneedle Street.

Money supply is more than just notes or coin. It can be measured in two ways: the “narrow” measure – basically, the value of notes and coin in the banking system – and the “broad” measure, which is the value of all notes and coin in issue plus the value of all bank deposits (which obviously includes deposits generated by lending). The need to be able to measure money supply is important because it is closely linked to inflation, and the control of inflation is one of the main priorities of governments/central banks.

In USA money supply is measured slightly differently: notes and coin (M0) plus the amount of money on deposit with banks and available on demand (M1), plus savings (M2) and large time deposits and other liquid assets (M3). There are also other ways of measuring it used in other economies.

When an economy is stagnating, or is in a deflationary cycle, central banks will try to control this by adjusting the amount of money in circulation. They will encourage lending through lower interest rates, and they will increase the amount of money in circulation which the banks should lend. The traditional way of doing this is by repurchasing government debt by issuing new money. Thus economic activity is hopefully stimulated - and inflation begins to rise …

The recent slow-down in the global economy is due to the fact that the banks themselves no longer believe in each other, and they have stopped lending. Thus when Washington Mutual and Northern Rock started to find that an important source of funds had dried up, they could no longer meet their obligations to their depositors. These banks had broken the rules about borrowing long and lending short, and they had reversed the rule about lending only a proportion of your deposits, by seeking short-term funding from the money market at commercial rates of interest and lending to housebuyers against that.

The trouble with leverage is that levers can break, and a weight heavier than you can lift yourself comes tumbling back down on top of you.

As a result, governments have had to step in and replace those missing funds with taxpayers’ money, creating massive public debt that will take ages to repay. In all probability, however, we will never repay it. It will just become permanent debt.

mkemse
02-20-2009, 09:53 AM
2 intresting things I heard on th Radio reguarding cars

There seem to be 2 "Classes" of Car buyers now, those who want one but may not beable to get credit, the other is those who can get the credit they need, but won't buy a car in fear of loosing there jobs

Hyndai did annouce a plan Mnoday to try to over come this, they said that anyone buying a Hyndai that gets laid off within 1 year of Purchase will be allowed to return the,car, their postion is therei s no way for ANYONE to know 12 months ahead if they wil looose their job or not

Stealth694
02-20-2009, 02:10 PM
Sadly neither of the approach's will work,, who in his right mind will buy a car for $18,000 to $36,000 when they can keep their current car ( witch is probably paid for) and maybe spend several thousand dollars repairing and upgrading it? People are tightening their belts everytime they hear the words layoff or bailout..

mkemse
02-20-2009, 02:27 PM
Sadly neither of the approach's will work,, who in his right mind will buy a car for $18,000 to $36,000 when they can keep their current car ( witch is probably paid for) and maybe spend several thousand dollars repairing and upgrading it? People are tightening their belts everytime they hear the words layoff or bailout..

I agree, my point was onlt that these are 2 reason given why people are NOT willing to buy cars now

denuseri
02-20-2009, 04:23 PM
Its going to get far worse before it gets any better.

mkemse
02-20-2009, 05:01 PM
Its going to get far worse before it gets any better.

You are 100% correct
And we are comming up on the Annivesary of the sinking of the Titanic, intresting if nothing else

MMI
02-21-2009, 09:05 AM
There's another category of car-buyer: the ones who are waiting for prices to drop further before they buy. Trouble is, the manufacturers could fail before the prices fall enough to tempt buyers back.

Titanic? That ship didn't have enough lifeboats ... hmmm.

MMI
02-21-2009, 09:31 AM
The Making of the Credit Crunch.

The trouble with the MBSs you describe is not that they were based upon mortgage loans, but that some of the loans that were packaged up should never have been made in the first place. This was entirely the fault of bankers who encouraged people to buy properties they could never afford. They had targets to meet: so many loans a week, or $/£ hundreds of thousands each month would produce a tasty commission for the adviser (who probably thought he was giving good advice according to his company's criteria). But scant attention was paid to the ability to repay ... perhaps it was thought that the usual provisions for bad debts would suffice, despite the careless lending policy being followed.

Now MBSs were bought by banks all over the world, believing each other's assurances that these were safe investments, backed by property, whose value was almost certain. It seems, in fact, that the amount of these investments the banks were holding was phenominal - Icelandic banks holding more than the whole population of their country could afford, for example. As the reality began to dawn on these bankers (cockney rhyming slang for something very uncomplimentary) they began to put up the shutters and stop lending against such securities. They also found they could not raise money against them, and so the crisis began, affecting one country's economy after another.

This is a gloabl problem affecting almost every economy in the world. It requires a global solution, which means international agreement and co-operation. It would be wrong and self-defeating to adopt isolationist, beggar-my-neighbour policies, because, as we have seen, if the banks ruined themselves by refusing to assist each other, so too will nations.

mkemse
02-21-2009, 12:21 PM
It is very Intresting but Micheal Steele, the New Chair of the Republican National Committe said at the speaking Enbgament yesterday 2-19-09 "Do not put the blame for our current Finicial Situaion on the Democrats, they are not responsible for where we are now"

MMI
02-21-2009, 05:35 PM
Ok - I won't blame the democrats ... unless they work in banking.

But as they are in charge of the world's recovery, they are responsible for where we are going.

DuncanONeil
02-28-2009, 05:47 PM
You are aware that the down reported housing market is based on an average? 41% of which is the State of California and the rest of the average is the other five States with housing problems. Actually the median value of an existing hous in the nation, over all, has decreased by a grand total of about 2%. That hardly qualifies as a disaster, wouldn't you say?

DuncanONeil
02-28-2009, 05:48 PM
It will take forever for me to respond to each point.

Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying the economy wouldnt have taken a nose dive if it wasnt for the problem that came about in the real estate market and if so was it not cuased by a series of natural events (huricanes) in conjunction with bad business foresight?

And ill considered intervention by Congress!

DuncanONeil
02-28-2009, 05:49 PM
Not sure on that, but everything SEEMS to have started with the Sub Prime Crisis and snow balled to where we are now

The same people that created the sub-prime problem are now trying to tell us they have the answer for the problem they created.

DuncanONeil
02-28-2009, 05:58 PM
The Making of the Credit Crunch.

The trouble with the MBSs you describe is not that they were based upon mortgage loans, but that some of the loans that were packaged up should never have been made in the first place. This was entirely the fault of bankers who encouraged people to buy properties they could never afford. They had targets to meet: so many loans a week, or $/£ hundreds of thousands each month would produce a tasty commission for the adviser (who probably thought he was giving good advice according to his company's criteria). But scant attention was paid to the ability to repay ... perhaps it was thought that the usual provisions for bad debts would suffice, despite the careless lending policy being followed.

Now MBSs were bought by banks all over the world, believing each other's assurances that these were safe investments, backed by property, whose value was almost certain. It seems, in fact, that the amount of these investments the banks were holding was phenominal - Icelandic banks holding more than the whole population of their country could afford, for example. As the reality began to dawn on these bankers (cockney rhyming slang for something very uncomplimentary) they began to put up the shutters and stop lending against such securities. They also found they could not raise money against them, and so the crisis began, affecting one country's economy after another.

This is a gloabl problem affecting almost every economy in the world. It requires a global solution, which means international agreement and co-operation. It would be wrong and self-defeating to adopt isolationist, beggar-my-neighbour policies, because, as we have seen, if the banks ruined themselves by refusing to assist each other, so too will nations.

61% of the people in sub-prime loans were not first time buyers but those refinancing. Many of those were for the sole purpose of "taking money out".

mkemse
02-28-2009, 06:37 PM
The same people that created the sub-prime problem are now trying to tell us they have the answer for the problem they created.

Yep

Like I heard yesterday, some Republicns are complainig about the size of the stimuls package, and 1 Democrat said "They drove us into the ditch, now they are complaining about the size of the tow truck to get it out"

wmrs2
03-02-2009, 09:49 PM
Thank you for this thread. I am learning some things here and from informed people in the news media. One theme that rings true is that there is not any one political party responsible economic bad times. If fact, the number one theme seems to be that the economy is in a cycle and that in the cycle is that it is taking a larger than normal dip. I am confident that the economy will come back but I am also thankful that we still have the strongest economy in the world. Other countries are having more difficult times than the USA. It is a world crisis and to blame ourselves totally seems to be the wrong psychological thing to do.

I think the USA is doing the correct thing in shifting to a non fossil economy and a new technology for energy. This may change everything economically like the computer technology did in the past. What do you think about this? Your opinion would be appreciated.

mkemse
03-02-2009, 09:59 PM
Thank you for this thread. I am learning some things here and from informed people in the news media. One theme that rings true is that there is not any one political party responsible economic bad times. If fact, the number one theme seems to be that the economy is in a cycle and that in the cycle is that it is taking a larger than normal dip. I am confident that the economy will come back but I am also thankful that we still have the strongest economy in the world. Other countries are having more difficult times than the USA. It is a world crisis and to blame ourselves totally seems to be the wrong psychological thing to do.

I think the USA is doing the correct thing in shifting to a non fossil economy and a new technology for energy. This may change everything economically like the computer technology did in the past. What do you think about this? Your opinion would be appreciated.

I agree the Economy will turn aroung but like Waren Buffet said, "It will turn around the only question is when" His view it we will remain in the Receession for most if not all of 2009 with a turn arounds in early to mid 2010, and this is a wolrd wide issue not just an american issue the wholeworlds economy is in bad shape
As far as the Fissel Fuel goes it serves 2 puposes less US dependency on inported Oil but it will also give us a better more green eviroment and less pollution so it is a win win situation for us

tedteague
04-08-2010, 05:56 PM
to your first point, money is not as glorious as you lead on. You say a car has no inherent value; well money does not either. That is why the value of money changes with inflation, deflation, and exchange rates. Money can quite literally be worthless if people choose not to accept it, which is always a hypothetical option, and usually happens in places with hyperinflation. Money is simply paper, legal tender. It is a commodity widely accepted. Furthermore, money is not the promise of work, if anything, it is a token of work already done. Nothing is being promised. You dont get paid then do the job (if you do, lucky you), it is more like a token os accomplishment. "I worked for ted for 10 hours, and because shaws doesnt accept 4 chickens in exchange for steak, ted has given me the equivalent of 4 chickens on cotton blend i can do whatever i want with." Furthermore yet again, if it is the promise of work, what do you call it when the fed prints money?
The circular flow is right, for the most part. If you get into the paradox and thrift and all that, thats a whole nother issue
2. this sort of goes out the window with the first point. Credit has to be repaid by someone, most of the time
3. The first thing that comes to mind is that there is more than 800 billion in cash. Quite a bit more. 1.7 trillion actually. People also have confidence in banks because of FDIC insurance. It seems you have a problem with the fractional reserve lending system. Quite simply, whats the alternative? Without banks lending money to create more money through interests on loans, the economy turns into a zero-sum game, where by one person making money someone else has to lose the same amount
4. You seem to have confused cause and effect here. The forclosures and defaults contributed to the popping bubble. Prices can only go so high until people simply cannot stop paying them or turning houses over. It is when everybody grabbing money realizes theres too few that bubbles pop. Secondly, the banks stopped lending not because of fear it wouldnt be paid back, but because they needed assets to recover from the bad mortgages and stay in the green (or not too far in the red). Third, interest rates shot up again as a result of the rapidly expanding economy. The Fed sets the interests rates, not banks.
5. Recessionary monetary policy expands the money supply. It more than doubled since '07. The lack of money is because of the liquidity trap, which is caused by sticky wages, which is caused in this case by the high unemployment.
6. Again, your last point is incorrect. When money starts leaving the banks because employment rises, there will actually be a massive inflation problem, not a deflationary heaven
7. You can't raise taxes to fund increased spending because raising taxes decreases consumption spending. If theres not enough money moving, you raise spending and cut taxes and fire money from both barrels. Furthermore, surprisingly, the stimulus spending is not much of the federal budget. 85% of the federal budget goes to defense spending (war on terror and whatnot) as welll as medicaid/medicare/social security. and good luck cutting any of that
8. Again, can't raise taxes in a recession. Its basic macro theory. Furthermore, you don't really have to worry about a concentration of wealth because again, we dont have a zero-sum economy. And even those who are very wealthy are still spending. Buying yachts employs skilled laborers to make those yachts. The wealthy may have a lesser marginal propensity to consume, but the disposable income they use to consume is only brought down by higher taxes.
9. The government can buy it all. At the very least, if the fiscal policy makers were moronic, they'd monetize it. Furthermore the bailout hasnt worked. Job creation has not occurred. And the bailout is supposed to be immediate. the long term solution is market self-correction. Which is what should have happened. And banks do know who they should lend money to. They have rooms filled with Harvard financers who crunch those very numbers all day
sorry for the lengthy reply, but you have some mistakes in your first post

DuncanONeil
04-10-2010, 08:34 PM
Read most of it. Speed read the rest.

Very interesting! Not sure i agree with all of it but still very interesting.

One thing I would like to put out for general consumption. Once was informed that every dollar put into circulation has the equivalence of $10.


This covers a lot of ground from the idea of money up to the credit market, why the seizure is bad, and a lot of other things. It's a primer for today's hot issue.

So let's talk money.

Money.
[SIZE="1"]
"There is nothing quite as wonderful as money.

DuncanONeil
04-10-2010, 08:39 PM
Nor did it have actual watertight compartments!


There's another category of car-buyer: the ones who are waiting for prices to drop further before they buy. Trouble is, the manufacturers could fail before the prices fall enough to tempt buyers back.

Titanic? That ship didn't have enough lifeboats ... hmmm.

DuncanONeil
04-10-2010, 08:40 PM
I was kind of hoping that the discussion would not head in this direction. Many of those "targets" were imposed by an entitiy without the banking industry!


The Making of the Credit Crunch.

The trouble with the MBSs you describe is not that they were based upon mortgage loans, but that some of the loans that were packaged up should never have been made in the first place. This was entirely the fault of bankers who encouraged people to buy properties they could never afford. They had targets to meet: so many loans a week, or $/£ hundreds of thousands each month would produce a tasty commission for the adviser (who probably thought he was giving good advice according to his company's criteria). But scant attention was paid to the ability to repay ... perhaps it was thought that the usual provisions for bad debts would suffice, despite the careless lending policy being followed.

Now MBSs were bought by banks all over the world, believing each other's assurances that these were safe investments, backed by property, whose value was almost certain. It seems, in fact, that the amount of these investments the banks were holding was phenominal - Icelandic banks holding more than the whole population of their country could afford, for example. As the reality began to dawn on these bankers (cockney rhyming slang for something very uncomplimentary) they began to put up the shutters and stop lending against such securities. They also found they could not raise money against them, and so the crisis began, affecting one country's economy after another.

This is a gloabl problem affecting almost every economy in the world. It requires a global solution, which means international agreement and co-operation. It would be wrong and self-defeating to adopt isolationist, beggar-my-neighbour policies, because, as we have seen, if the banks ruined themselves by refusing to assist each other, so too will nations.

SadisticNature
04-11-2010, 09:26 AM
If money *was* a store of wealth, then there could be no such thing as a mutually beneficial trade. All free trade would be neutral at best as the amounts of wealth exchanged would at best be the same (as only a fool would knowingly pay more wealth for something than he received).


Agree with all of your post up until here. Mutually beneficial trade can exist through exchange of equal amounts of wealth. Trading wealth in the form of money for raw materials to do work can be useful for both the producer of raw materials and the manufacturer. The manufacturer reduces their store of wealth to acquire the capacity to do valuable work, while the miner sells their end products increasing their store of wealth. This can easily be mutually beneficial trade under an idea of money as a store of wealth.

SadisticNature
04-11-2010, 09:34 AM
Personal opinion: All the above is true but one important thing was neglected - the role of the media.

Now, I am all for free speech (I would not, for example, say that any piece of news should be suppressed or censored) but it did seem to me that the media in this case turned a minor credit crunch into what is now an official recession. By stirring up people who did not fully understand the economy (and I don't pretend to fully understand it and I think few do who do not already work in the financial industry) into panicking over the 'impending recession due to the credit crunch' they caused them to make rash decisions, withdraw funds and do other things which, in effect, speeded up the development of said recession.

At the risk of using Dilbertesque managerial cliches: The financial market goes in cycles or boom and bust, often quite rapidly. One thing I have never understood is people not seeming to realise this. Ok, stock prices are low, house prices are low.... this means it is a time to buy and hold onto said stocks/property until the market recovers when you sell at a profit. It seems quite simple... but then I suppose there is the problem if everyone holds onto these stocks then the market suffers...

If everyone holds on to their stocks than people placing offers to buy can't buy, so the stock prices are driven upwards as the buy values go higher so the market doesn't suffer it recovers. The panic makes things worse because people are willing to sell off their undervalued stock, keeping the buyers trying to find those lower prices and resulting in the stock price staying low.

As for people not realizing this, many people do. People often react emotionally rather than intellectually in a lot of these situations, and make unwise decisions even though on a rational level they know those decisions are unwise. We've been taught all our lives to fix our mistakes and learn from them, but this is exactly what one doesn't want to do after the fact in a stock market.

SadisticNature
04-11-2010, 09:37 AM
I was kind of hoping that the discussion would not head in this direction. Many of those "targets" were imposed by an entitiy without the banking industry!

The regulations you've mentioned in previous threads on this topic didn't apply to the institutions purchasing, bundling and reselling the subprime loans.

The banks were making loans because they could make a quick profit on them by reselling them to the investment banks who could bundle them into a clever security which increased the investment grade and enabled them to resell it at a profit. This is the epitome of free market transactions, every step along the way is justified by profit.

DuncanONeil
04-11-2010, 09:48 AM
In the short term maybe. But it is not a true transfer of wealth. The raw material of the miner has more value than it state as ore.


Agree with all of your post up until here. Mutually beneficial trade can exist through exchange of equal amounts of wealth. Trading wealth in the form of money for raw materials to do work can be useful for both the producer of raw materials and the manufacturer. The manufacturer reduces their store of wealth to acquire the capacity to do valuable work, while the miner sells their end products increasing their store of wealth. This can easily be mutually beneficial trade under an idea of money as a store of wealth.

DuncanONeil
04-11-2010, 09:57 AM
Banks were making the loans because regulations had been passed forcing them to do so. Anything that grows out of the forced applied by the regulatory action of Congress is a direct result of the force applied.
Said force put the banks in a weakened position. The markets that you decry as a sole product of evil greed were efforts to remain a viable business. Mayhap even in some cases to enable the banks to comply with other regulations with regard to reporting and required reserves.


The regulations you've mentioned in previous threads on this topic didn't apply to the institutions purchasing, bundling and reselling the subprime loans.

The banks were making loans because they could make a quick profit on them by reselling them to the investment banks who could bundle them into a clever security which increased the investment grade and enabled them to resell it at a profit. This is the epitome of free market transactions, every step along the way is justified by profit.

TantricSoul
04-11-2010, 10:33 AM
Posts about the topic are appreciated.

Subtle or not so subtle personal attacks are not.

Keep it on topic and keep your posts about the issues not the other posters.

~Tantric