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_ID_
01-10-2010, 06:51 AM
In any BDSM relationship, be it a single scene between a Top and a bottom or a 24/7 Ms relationship. Who has the most power, or most control?

Is it the sub, is it the Dom, is it the Master or slave? Is it both?

This was a topic of discussion at our group munch. There were opinions for both sides.

angelic.zest
01-10-2010, 09:14 AM
Most of the people i know will say its the sub who has the most power because they get to stop a scene, step out from a relatioships whenever something doesnt go as planned. But in my opinion, Both have the same amount of power in a scene/relationship. I say that because both get to stop a scene in the middle if something doesnt go as planned, or If a submissive acts a particular way while a top is doing something(not sure but you can think of ideas) then He/she gets to stop the scene or play date. Same goes for the submissive. Slaves I cant really speak on because I am not a slave and i dont have the mind set as a slave. But I am sure if something doesnt go as planned and their life is in danger, they would stop the scene, the play, etc. It just depends on the person(slave) though, know a few of them who wouldn't stop because they think their "master" or what not could do know wrong but if something goes wrong then all hell has broken lost. Many different agencies getting involved because of simple(sometimes not so simple) mistakes.
So i guess all i am trying to say is, I think both have the right to end a scene, a relationship, etc if the other isnt living up to their part of the deal. Will either one of them take up that right to end the relationship? No one really knows especially when feelings, emotions and that "longing" to serve/dominant, no matter how horrible, good, bad, or indifferent that person(other partner) may be.

denuseri
01-10-2010, 11:46 AM
Let me answer your question with a question.

Tell me, who has the real power when one is gagged and tied down, on their knees getting fucked, fingered and spanked and the other one gets to do the fucking, fingering and spanking?

I have personally found that who is in charge is often a point of contention, even in a M/s relationship, especially in one where the submissive has as of yet to fully surrender in their heart to the will of a dominant and even then some dominants wish to allow one to retain as much of their spirt as possible, prolonging the dynamic in many ways, with several different degrees of surrender being involved.

"Beware la kajira lest it is you who ends up enthralled at her feet instead."

In some ways its a constantly changing dynamic, a two way street if you will. There is a certian degree of give and take, in power exchange.

We can spout all the window dressings of "equality" of this and that we wish to make us feel all fluffy about the the topic of "true power" and where it resides but it wont change a thing when it comes down to the brass tacks in actual practice; despite the giving and taking that occurs. Even the sacred holy grail of the "safe word" will not allways save one, the dominant ultimately is the one who decides if such is to be honored in reality and even if it's allowed the sub, there are situations in which the use of them isnt allways feasible.

As for ending relationships, well, anyone can and allready does do that, regardless of title within the kink community, at least in developed societies. (Unless being held actual prisoner and well then, whatever asshole is doing the holding needs to go to jail) The majority of us all are denziens of a society in which the rule of law is clear on this and yes even those of us who are slaves know this and will leave your ass if you go too far.

Choose to submit and you place yourself at risk to some extent. There will be times when you are completely at the mercy of another.

Tell me , who has the real power then?

asiangirl
01-10-2010, 12:04 PM
Well put, denuseri.

_ID_
01-10-2010, 01:09 PM
Well put, denuseri.

Agreed, very well put.

denuseri, to answer your question question with an answer. When the bottom protests, and the Top retains the control irregardless of consent given or revoked it ceases to be consensual, and the bastard should go to jail as you mentioned.

So with the semantics of power being exchanged for a bottom to be bound and gagged consensually. Does the dominant hold the control or the sub. I say it remains equal. Who directs the scene, it is most definitely the top, but who holds control? IMO it is equal.

denuseri
01-10-2010, 01:32 PM
Well as a slave I can tell you who doesnt control or direct things. lol

Honestly, you want me to top you from the bottom I will, just dont expect me to respect you for it in the morning. Winks.

As for equality, smh, in actual reality there really isnt such a thing, its an abstract consept.

You wish to say the sub is in charge becuase she can revoke her consent, more power to you, but I say the dominant has just as much power in that regard, he or she doesnt have to acccept your submission to them, they too are perfectly capable of packing up their toys and going home or choosing to "play" with another instead.

So if the sub really wants to be dominated, one must be able to recognize such consepts in reality dont apply to the equation, at least not during execution for the most part.

Ive never had a safe word for telling a dominant, "ow quit it, I dont feel like it today not that way," the safe word (when used at all) to my understanding, at least in the manner in which I was trainned, is primarally a tool used by novices to (or brand new couples) help avoid permament damage of ones submissive and not a "fall back theoretical tool" used as part of the power exchange dynamic by the sub against the dominant.

Flaming_Redhead
01-10-2010, 02:06 PM
In the beginning, the power is definitely equal, and on the surface, it would appear to remain balanced throughout a D/s relationship. However, in my experience, once a dominant has successfully gotten inside the submissive's head and heart and the submissive has truly surrendered, the submissive is like a puppet on a string. Granted, we are all adults and capable of making decisions, so protests of "he made me do it" seem kind of silly in the harsh light of day. Ultimately, we are in control of ourselves, but the feelings evoked in power exchange of helplessness, dependence, etc., are very real. For it to feel real, there cannot be true equality.

Ozme52
01-10-2010, 02:24 PM
Just as in the vanilla world... the contract describes responsibilities, duties, recourses, penalties for non-performance, and how the contract will or can be ended.

In the vanilla relationship world, a lot of that "contract" is culturally understood, and often ends in a marriage license which has more cultural and legal processes and understandings.

In the world of bdsm, it is no different save that more is discussed, (or up for discussion,) and more is specifically specified, whether orally or in a written agreement.

That all said, you (hopefully) go into the negotiations equally and you enter into an agreement, whether for a couple of hours at a play party or a whole hog 24/7 relationship.

Who has the power, while "under contract" is based on the couple and their agreement. And the fact that either can withdraw is irrelevent. It's just another point within the agreement.

Carpe Coma
01-10-2010, 06:55 PM
First, what is power? Power is leverage. Power is influence over the decisions of others. The person with the most influence has the most power. Now who has the most power is rarely a simple measurement, however a good guideline is: who has the least value at risk? The person with the least value at risk is the one that can walk away from the situation the easiest, the one who can most easily decide to do something else. However, the power position isn't determined just by how much is at risk, but by how much is perceived to be at risk, because that perception is what people will base their decisions on. So the person who is in the power position is the one who perceives that they have the least at risk; the one who thinks they will be the least affected by the influence of the other person's actions on their existence.

The whole "submissive has the most power because the submissive can end the scene" is a myopic way of looking at the situation which gets endlessly perpetuated largely because it boosts the comfort level of otherwise nervous (and generally green) submissives. It seems at first blush that the submissive has more power because the idea always gets brought up in the context of the dominant wanting to 'go too far' and that the dominant will stop when told. Yes, the dominant is supposed to stop, but that doesn't mean that it will happen. The dominant still gets to make a choice, while the submissive does not. The submissive isn't demonstrating more power in that situation, but asking the dominant to weigh the perceived consequences of continuing vs. the dominant's desires. If the dominant decides that the risks associated with ignoring the safeword are less than the continued enjoyment of what s/he is doing, then the submissive just might find their safeword ignored. If the submissive had the guaranteed ability to bring a halt to whatever was happening at any time and without consequence, then the 'submissive' would be in the power position because s/he has the least at risk, thus s/he would not actually be submitting.

The whole point of a d/s relationship is that there is a power differential in the dominant's favor. A dominant that is doing their job correctly won't have the submissive thinking that s/he will be the least affected by refusing to comply. If you think you are in the power position, then you certainly aren't thinking you are the submissive one in the relationship.

Guera
01-10-2010, 07:31 PM
I think the dominant truly cares about the sub, though it manifests in weird ways sometimes, and some dom/mes cop some really weird attitudes about that. Caring, emotionally and care-taking as a task, puts the dominant in a place of vulnerability (chosen and accepted), which implies (to me at least) that a huge amount of power is given to the sub: the power to be desired.

As Denuseri said, the dom/me has more physical power and more control, and that is a different kind of power. Also, the dom/me generally has more will, more force, and more choice. The sub has one big choice- stay or go.

I don't have a good answer to the original question, because I don't think power can be measured like a volume or a weight can. So it is impossible to directly compare one power to another.

Carpe Coma
01-10-2010, 08:00 PM
I don't have a good answer to the original question, because I don't think power can be measured like a volume or a weight can. So it is impossible to directly compare one power to another.

Sure it can. Power = work/time. *grin* To seriously respond, an accurate measurement is definitely difficult as we don't have a unit for personal power and power can be expressed in many different ways. However, it is possible to to compare one power to another. While this can't be done in a purely scientific way (outside of physical power), we can get a fairly good idea by taking two individuals with a different amount or type of power, have them try to accomplish a variety of tasks, and score them on speed and quality. It won't be a perfect test, it ought to be able to give a coarse idea of how various types of power stack up.

Guera
01-10-2010, 09:30 PM
hypothetically, its a good idea :)

Lisais mine
01-12-2010, 07:25 AM
It's the Dom. I see moments all the time that i am defered to. Like Red said, once you are in her head, the dynamic shifts and you cant just say that she is going to use her safe word.

jeanne
01-12-2010, 05:40 PM
If you think you are in the power position, then you certainly aren't thinking you are the submissive one in the relationship.

Summed up very well. I think that if one is submissive, having the power, whether implied or overt, is uncomfortable. Can I, as a submissive, safeword? Yes I can. Is that a guarantee that the scene will end immediately? No it isn't. I don't throw around safewords just because I'm not deliriously happy with what's going on. It's not me. When I submit, I submit to whatever is happening unless it's going to cause serious harm. Then I safeword, we talk, and my Owner decides if it continues or ends.

Here's how I look at it, in a D/s relationship. A Dom and sub talk. The sub tells the Dom his/her hard limits and soft limits. These conversations need to be thorough and can be ongoing as the relationship progresses. Once the initial negotiation is complete, the Dom is then "in charge". In other words, my limits, His limits....act as boundaries of a world. Once those boundaries are established, what happens inside them is up to Him. I have agreed to that as His submissive...and in fact, need to know that I am no longer in control.

When we need to talk as one person to another, we do so outside that world. This can be difficult to do...and once done, difficult to go back. It requires a real commitment on the part of both Dom and sub to do so.

Midnytedreams
01-17-2010, 01:55 AM
When did BDSM become all about the Dominant.

In my 30 yrs plus in the lifestyle I have seen it change...I remember going to my first munch as a young man,,,Seeing others more experienced there Tops bottoms switches...some who weren’t sure where they fit...never did I hear a harsh word spoken. All were welcome to join and learn.
I never saw fear on subs faces there only joy... No commands given or needed as they knelt and served. I was amazed by what I saw..there as they interacted so natural. I was given this advice and it has worked my entire life so I wish to pass it on.
Our duty as Dominants is to provide a safe, sane consensual environment for the growth of the submissive. Nothing else was needed to be said as it said all to Me.. I have used this knowledge My entire life knowing safe meant I would allow no harm to befall her be it mental ,physical , or psychological. Consensual that she would let me know through her actions and communication her willingness to expand on her limits , that I would not dictate them. Sane that I would have control of my own emotions and wants to allow this growth in a sub. All of this is based on trust and time, no one can give themselves without it, and as time and trust build needs change wants need to be explored willingly by her.
As a Dom I do not demand ....I accept her submission , I know other Doms know the joy of a sub kneeling at your feet not because she is commanded too..but because she wants , and desires to. To not have to say you will be punished , but find her at the door as you enter holding the whip... This is true Dominance it can not be given over night, no matter how you try to force or demand it. They say time heals all wounds, and it is true and time allows subs to grow.
I don’t crave or desire power, but something much more her trust that no matter what secrets she wishes to share , her desires she will be safe and no guilt be felt by her. .Some will say you are wrong to think this way ...you are being topped from bottom. This is not true as I am the Dom and once her trust and safety is known she gives all willingly. Some here have felt the power of just a look that you can give as a Dom....that will make her sink to her knees, not out of fear but because she herself has come to know her own needs. To witness tears of joy as she surpasses her own limits.

So why would I even want it to be about me ,I don’t

Arria
01-17-2010, 08:00 AM
The first pair in the lifestyle I met, and who introduced me into the lifestyle, was kind enough to answer my excessive amount of questions with lots of patience and understanding.

The dom told me that a dom has only as much power as the submissive will let him have.

As denu and others pointed out, the submissive can at any point leave the relationship. So basically, the power to end it is equal.

That said, the power within a scene is in my eyes different. As in denu´s nicely put example - in certain scenes, positions, bindings, gaggings etc. the submissive has really no control, meaning she has given that control completely over to the dom.
It is up to the dom to handle that situation in a way that is good for both.

I am with hubby almost 12 years now. Although I personally have issues with handing over control in real life issues, I give over control within a scene. Although this is sometimes extremely scary for me, it turned out to be the biggest turn-on for me at the same time.

As for the power within the relationship: I found, as I learned over time, to ask for his opinion on things, simply because there are a lot of things he knows more about than I do, and because he is usually right (yay, I admitted it! *lol*).

I don´t think the question can be answered for all couples in a one-off sort of way.

Basically, I could end a scene at any time, by giving my safeword.
While I have considered it sometimes, I never did that yet.

Basically, I could end the relationship at any time.
The thing is, I don´t want to do that.

I don´t know if that helped you. It´s just my opinion.

Kind regards
Arria

Ozme52
01-17-2010, 09:09 AM
When did BDSM become all about the Dominant.

In my 30 yrs plus in the lifestyle I have seen it change...I remember going to my first munch as a young man,,,Seeing others more experienced there Tops bottoms switches...some who weren’t sure where they fit...never did I hear a harsh word spoken. All were welcome to join and learn.
I never saw fear on subs faces there only joy... No commands given or needed as they knelt and served. I was amazed by what I saw..there as they interacted so natural. I was given this advice and it has worked my entire life so I wish to pass it on.
Our duty as Dominants is to provide a safe, sane consensual environment for the growth of the submissive. Nothing else was needed to be said as it said all to Me.. I have used this knowledge My entire life knowing safe meant I would allow no harm to befall her be it mental ,physical , or psychological. Consensual that she would let me know through her actions and communication her willingness to expand on her limits , that I would not dictate them. Sane that I would have control of my own emotions and wants to allow this growth in a sub. All of this is based on trust and time, no one can give themselves without it, and as time and trust build needs change wants need to be explored willingly by her.
As a Dom I do not demand ....I accept her submission , I know other Doms know the joy of a sub kneeling at your feet not because she is commanded too..but because she wants , and desires to. To not have to say you will be punished , but find her at the door as you enter holding the whip... This is true Dominance it can not be given over night, no matter how you try to force or demand it. They say time heals all wounds, and it is true and time allows subs to grow.
I don’t crave or desire power, but something much more her trust that no matter what secrets she wishes to share , her desires she will be safe and no guilt be felt by her. .Some will say you are wrong to think this way ...you are being topped from bottom. This is not true as I am the Dom and once her trust and safety is known she gives all willingly. Some here have felt the power of just a look that you can give as a Dom....that will make her sink to her knees, not out of fear but because she herself has come to know her own needs. To witness tears of joy as she surpasses her own limits.

So why would I even want it to be about me ,I don’t

Why do you equate power with fear?
Why does wielding power make "it all about the dom"?
You say your role is to keep her safe.... How do you keep her safe with no power?
How do you help her surpass her limits with no power?... for why would she do so save to please you? Your pleasure when she does so is, in fact, a power you wield.

And you say you are in control of your own emotions. How do you do that without power?

I'm not saying your perspective, especially of your own relationship, is wrong, just that you indeed wield a lot of power, perhaps all the power, in your relationship.

Have you ever asked her who has the power between you when you are interacting as dom and sub?
(Just curious. ;) )

Ozme52
01-17-2010, 09:28 AM
Oh!! I'm "embedded within Arria. :hubba:
The first pair in the lifestyle I met, and who introduced me into the lifestyle, was kind enough to answer my excessive amount of questions with lots of patience and understanding.

The dom told me that a dom has only as much power as the submissive will let him have. Yes... the negotiations.

As denu and others pointed out, the submissive can at any point leave the relationship. So basically, the power to end it is equal. Absolutely. No more one than the other.

That said, the power within a scene is in my eyes different. As in denu´s nicely put example - in certain scenes, positions, bindings, gaggings etc. the submissive has really no control, meaning she has given that control completely over to the dom. Control equates to power. Even the ability to control (a) power is power.

It is up to the dom to handle that situation in a way that is good for both.

I am with hubby almost 12 years now. Although I personally have issues with handing over control in real life issues, I give over control within a scene. Although this is sometimes extremely scary for me, it turned out to be the biggest turn-on for me at the same time.

As for the power within the relationship: I found, as I learned over time, to ask for his opinion on things, simply because there are a lot of things he knows more about than I do, and because he is usually right (yay, I admitted it! *lol*). But I'll bet he considers all of your input in the decisions he makes too. Such does not diminish power.

I don´t think the question can be answered for all couples in a one-off sort of way.

Basically, I could end a scene at any time, by giving my safeword.
While I have considered it sometimes, I never did that yet.

Basically, I could end the relationship at any time.
The thing is, I don´t want to do that.

I don´t know if that helped you. It´s just my opinion.

Kind regards
Arria

Mmmmm, embedding oneself...

Ozme52
01-17-2010, 09:31 AM
Summed up very well.heheh I think that if one is submissive, having the power, whether implied or overt, is uncomfortable. Can I, as a submissive, safeword? Yes I can. Is that a guarantee that the scene will end immediately? No it isn't. I dwooton't throw around safewords just because I'm not deliriously happy with what's going on. It's not me. When I submit, I submit to whatever is happening unless it's going to cause serious harm. Then I safeword, we talk, and my Owner decides if it continues or ends.

Here's how I look at it, in a D/snice and warm... relationship. A Dom and sub talk. The sub tells the Dom his/her hard limits and soft limits. These conversations need to be thorough and can be ongoing as the relationship progresses. Once the initial negotiation is complete, the Dom is then "in charge". In other words, my limits, His limits....act as boundaries of a world. Once those boundaries are established, what happens inside them is up to Him. I have agreed to that as His submissive...and in fact, need to know that I am no longer in control.

When we need to talk as one person to another, we do so outside that world. This can be difficult to do...and once done, difficult to go back. It requires a real commitment on theahhhhhhhhhh part of both Dom and sub to do so.

Sorry for the interuption.... back to the actual conversation. :D

Arria
01-17-2010, 01:41 PM
Hm, apparently one cannot quote a part of a quote.

*lol* Ozme, you´re impossible!

As for this text:
"As for the power within the relationship: I found, as I learned over time, to ask for his opinion on things, simply because there are a lot of things he knows more about than I do, and because he is usually right (yay, I admitted it! *lol*)." by me and
"But I'll bet he considers all of your input in the decisions he makes too. Such does not diminish power." by Ozme -

Well, basically, yes.
Though it does not happen often that this becomes necessary. He usually can handle his own stuff, and we let each other make the daily life decisions on our own.

As for bigger issues like large amounts being spent - e.g. for the car, or for a vacation -, we decide and discuss together, until all parties involved are happy with the compromise.

This is what works best for us.

I know there are people who are into micromanagement etc., but neither of us wants that.
I don´t want to give over control over every little step I take, and he would not want to be bothered with a woman who does not want to make any decision alone.

I basically don´t want to be parented or controlled too much by force. A nice example of this?
I gave him my passwords for the pages where I usually hang around. So he basically has the possibility to read and check on all my stuff. (I don´t think he is using it much; perhaps he would, if I gave him reason for mistrust).
I did this voluntarily and on my own accord. It is a sign of trust and wanting to share.

If, however, he had said "you must give me all your passwords and report to me every conversation you have with anyone but me outside of your job", I would most likely have called him a control freak, and kicked his ass.

The magic for me is in a dom who makes me _want_ to do what he likes.

Not in a "dom" who excerts his will by brute force or because he claims "this is what a _real_ sub must do".

Ozme52
01-17-2010, 03:09 PM
No arguement there Arria.

Midnytedreams
01-17-2010, 09:35 PM
Why do you equate power with fear?

I never equated power with fear, but yes the power is the conquering of it. As humans we all have fears. Conquering fear lets take as an example .... Have you as a Dominant male ever asked your submissive what she went through to be yours....I have. First they must deal with the understanding of this need ....it takes great strength to go against what society deems as normal in their choice... Then they have to decide how to voice this choice ....as they do they become a target for all kinds of abuse verbal ,and mental...would you have the strength of your own convictions to wade through that ....many submissive can’t so they give up.... but the strong ones do...their conviction need is that strong.... Some give themselves to another only to abused , used lied too...of those many leave the lifestyle as they can’t deal with it and just give up... could you endure this ask yourself....Some find a Dominant give there all it becomes r/l only to find abuse and lies....but still they seek another why...what draws them ....they have something a strength to find that happiness ... Finally they find the One their Dom but this baggage is still there ....they need time to see it will work so parts are held back...but with time, and the building
of this trust, they can now share everything they wished to share from the beginning. I know she fears at the start if I went through the same I would be apprehensive too. We as Dominants rarely think of what our submissive went through to become ours

You say your role is to keep her safe.... How do you keep her safe with no power?

By understanding what it took to bring her to Me...Understanding she has fears, communication and allowing her to share those fears...would you not if you went through all above to find the One you have. Women fear gaining weight, getting old , abandonment , are they enough , a whole gambit of fears we will never understand.... As an example my sub is turning fifty, she used to looks at her picture then to the mirror questioning herself constantly, no matter how much I reassured her , she did it finding fault with herself... nothing worked then one day I asked her this.... As a firefighter I face death daily... If I was to become disfigured by a fire would she love me less... she went to our bedroom , I followed her found her crying on the bed she looked up and said how could you think such a thing,,, I looked deeply into her eyes and said then why do you question me by doubting your own beauty... is that power no ... it is understanding we as Dominant and sub and are but parts of One.

How do you help her surpass her limits with no power?... for why would she do so save to please you?

The submissive knows her needs long before she ever meets her master, her need as a submissive is to give of herself, you as a Master must deal with this fact it is what drew her into the lifestyle not you. Yes with trust and time she shares those needs more, as with any relationship be it in the lifestyle, or vanilla.... you wouldn’t walk up to a complete stranger on the street and start talking about your wants needs to them as a new sub will not share her own secret wants desires with just any Dom... But we all have that someone whom we share our life with be it a best friend some one we have known for some time and can trust with that knowledge be it vanilla or lifestyle .With that building of trust in the Dom the submissive finds she can share that with you...her desires. Do you honestly think when a submissive is asked for the first time her limits by a new Dom...she shares all ...this is not a lie just a way to protect herself....That desire can’t be revealed yet to anyone,,, even her...but with time she grows understanding her needs, her trust builds and soon she has to share that need. My joy doesn’t come from binding a women but seeing the joy in her eyes as she lays there bound...not from striking her flesh with whip or flogger but the look in her eyes after as I caress her , and she thanks Me.

And you say you are in control of your own emotions. How do you do that without power?

If self control over my own emotions is power I don’t understand the question. I learned in martial arts that with the knowledge comes control. If confronted I walk away not out of fear of them...but because I know I can hurt them. I choice not to The same is true of the submissive a Dominant can crush the spirit of a submissive make her do anything if she doesn’t know her own strength...I have seen it ...heard of it.....I have found it to be wrong. Maybe I do wield power ,but it is only over Me not her.

lucy
01-18-2010, 02:12 PM
Personally i think this is a useless discussion. As long as i'm in a D/s relationship or in a scene, there's no question about who has the power.
The fact that i could end both the relationship and/or the scene doesn't mean i have the same amount of power. I only have it if i actually do it, which i won't unless my Master doesn't cross any limits we both have agreed upon. (Accidents or unforeseen occurances aside, like the one time i used my safeword because we played outside and a bee was scrambling over my leg and i'm allergic to beestings.)

Within those limits, he has all the power he wants (and needs) to be a caring Dom.

summerBreeze{EDQ}
02-14-2010, 10:05 PM
well said.

CuntyVonTwatington
02-20-2010, 08:59 AM
Hmm... its an interesting question and one that I love to mentally wrestle with. :) On one hand, it seems obvious that the dominant must have the most power; otherwise how could he (or she) actually be said to be dominating.... that's kinda what the word means. ;) That being said, I think there is a difference between controlling power and having power. I am a submissive; this has not suddenly rendered me powerless. Logically if i am to give something to someone i must have it to begin with. On occasion, Master has told me that I've "made his day" and when he does that always makes me feel both powerful AND submissive (and thrilled to every cell in my body!) The question I wonder on the most is "how is it that I can give power away and not feel diminished?" Because frankly i don't, I feel strengthened by it. I really don't know, but I think its because power is constantly renewing itself. No matter how much control I give to my Master, no matter how much power he has, no matter how much energy we spend, there is always more. There must be more because i keep finding more of it to give lol. So to me its not a question of whether or not subs have power or not.... everyone who is alive has at least the power to "make someone's day" but a question of what we do with that power. As submissives we want (or NEED) someone else to have control of that power.

TantricSoul
04-07-2010, 10:24 AM
perhaps, for those that struggle with this idea of power exchange, it may help to think of power as "flowing."

It is true that power flows from the submissive one to the Dominant one, the method of this exchange varies greatly. This leads many to suggest the submissive "has the power", however as Ozme, denu, lucy, and others have illustrated, within the context of scene or relationship this is not so.

After all what power does one wield when tied wrist and ankle to the bed?

Yet power will, as it must, eventually flow back to the one who has surrendered it, be it the end of a scene or day or relationship or life, and so, as most things in life it is cyclical.

For me the true question, isn't who wields power, but how that power is wielded. And the answer to that is as unique and similar as each one of us.

denuseri
04-07-2010, 03:48 PM
For me the true question, isn't who wields power, but how that power is wielded.

Bravo! Well said good Sir! (claps a lot)

Jennifer Williams
04-08-2010, 04:46 AM
tangledNlanguid and TantricSoul, you have both said everything I would have so beautifully *sniff*.

I think, truly, the way power is exchanged (and it is an exchange or "flow" as TantricSoul said), is as unique for every relationship as the people who make it up.

For me, I would tell you that my sub has more power because it is his giving of it to me on a constant basis that gives me Dominance. I am only Dominant because of his submission, only because he has given his power to me. And I see part of my job as to make him continue to desire to give his power to me, which is why so much of our play revolves around him (though he doesn't always know it).

I've tried to post this about six times already and I can't phrase it any better, and I do not feel satisfied with my answer at all! *Whew*, what a question, IDCrewDawg!

nawteeone
04-29-2010, 01:38 PM
I'm gonna have to say ultimately the sub. Yes, that's hard to argue when I am being forced into position and whipped, or enduring nipple torture. Then there are the times that M's cock is rammed so hard down my throat, I have no choice but to please or gag....but this all happens because I have determined it can. I'm not talking about safe words, or setting limits. I'm just saying that I have let it be known to M that yes, i am willing to go down whatever dark road he leads me. I have chosen that. And at any given time, i can choose to not (bloody unlikely since I knew I was a sub before I even knew what sex was!).

If M were to decide that he no longer wanted to have relations, honestly, while that would give him a certain amount of control, it would only feed my masochistic needs and leave me dripping with the torture of being denied his cock.

I know there are Doms out there who are all about themselves, surely, but a good one will only take his sub as far as they are truly willing to go-truly being a few steps past where they think it is! A good Dom is going to WANT his sub to be turned on, and bases his actions on that.

tina2008
05-04-2010, 04:07 PM
I believe the power structure has the ability to be equal, however, as Jon's submissive, I gladly hand my power over to Him.

cadence
05-04-2010, 06:39 PM
Typically I have the power, and try to hold on to it, until the power exchange ultimately happens and he beats my ass black and blue - then he has the power

openyoureyes
05-25-2010, 02:02 PM
In the beginning, the power is definitely equal, and on the surface, it would appear to remain balanced throughout a D/s relationship. However, in my experience, once a dominant has successfully gotten inside the submissive's head and heart and the submissive has truly surrendered, the submissive is like a puppet on a string. Granted, we are all adults and capable of making decisions, so protests of "he made me do it" seem kind of silly in the harsh light of day. Ultimately, we are in control of ourselves, but the feelings evoked in power exchange of helplessness, dependence, etc., are very real. For it to feel real, there cannot be true equality.

As far as the relationship itself is concerned, I believe the power is equal. We can choose to leave the relationship at any time if we are not happy. If a submissive feels they can't leave, but aren't being forced to stay, that's still a choice they are making. We are adults, not victims, and we all make our own choices.

However, as far as during scene, it's hard to say the submissive has control simply because they have a safeword. If I am tied up, regardless of what I say, I don't actually have the power to stop what's happening. While I may choose to be put in this situation, I still don't have the power to stop it if it goes too far. Yes, I have a safeword, but it's not up to me if it gets listened to.

Dejah Thoris
05-25-2010, 02:09 PM
In the beginning, the power is definitely equal, and on the surface, it would appear to remain balanced throughout a D/s relationship. However, in my experience, once a dominant has successfully gotten inside the submissive's head and heart and the submissive has truly surrendered, the submissive is like a puppet on a string. Granted, we are all adults and capable of making decisions, so protests of "he made me do it" seem kind of silly in the harsh light of day. Ultimately, we are in control of ourselves, but the feelings evoked in power exchange of helplessness, dependence, etc., are very real. For it to feel real, there cannot be true equality.

Reading this made me realize that I very much feel the same way - and I would not want it to be otherwise. Thank you for expressing this sentiment.

angelhunter
05-25-2010, 03:11 PM
I am just saying that power even life is nothing more but an illusion. If I kidnap someone off the streets and then I truly have the power but we are not talking about that. The sub wants to dominated, she sets the boundaries and cause this illusion take effect. When it comes down to it the master is really the slave. I am just humming.
Nuff said.

Ozme52
05-26-2010, 09:53 AM
I am just saying that power even life is nothing more but an illusion. If I kidnap someone off the streets and then I truly have the power but we are not talking about that. The sub wants to dominated, she sets the boundaries and cause this illusion take effect. When it comes down to it the master is really the slave. I am just humming.
Nuff said.

Balderdash.

That's like saying you, as an employee, have all the power over your employer.

Once you accept the position (i.e., make the choice to interact within the relationship as defined,) you relinquish the power to the employer.

Thereafter, the employer holds the power until you choose to withdraw.

Jennifer Williams
05-26-2010, 10:05 PM
So then is threatening to quit if I don't get a raise on a day when everyone calls in sick "Topping from the bottom?" :P

Ozme52
05-27-2010, 09:55 AM
So then is threatening to quit if I don't get a raise on a day when everyone calls in sick "Topping from the bottom?" :P

Yep... and that rarely works either. You're more likely to see a pink slip than a bigger check once everyone gets better.

Matin
06-01-2010, 08:26 PM
I like the employer/employee illustration. I submit that it may be a bit simplistic for the description of relationships.

Power seems to be as a word too vague. It describes the possession, by one party, of a thing of value desired by the other party. Me having, and you wanting, is leverage. I now have the ability to compel you, to a degree. The value that YOU place on the thing I possess determines the extent of that leverage - how far I can push.

This simple dynamic describes employment, because -generally- in a work environment the employee is replaceable.

In a relationship both parties have leverage. Her desires place value on my strength, stability, attention... My desires place value on HER stability, submission, ability to compartmentalize...

Codependency is another way of saying mexican standoff. If I did not value my sub's emotional welfare, I would have all the leverage. I would also be a douchebag. ^.^

Even situations where the sub claims to have no self regard seem to me to be false, because that in itself is a trait that any dom could value, and thus the sub has gained leverage... Power...

Occam's razor. It is called a power exchange because it is, and in a very literal sense.

Pardon me; I often use typing to think. :)
-matin

xspy4u
06-11-2010, 08:44 PM
I am an author not a practitioner so my point of view may not carry as much weight as those of you with actual experience. I comment because fir I am impressed at the level of intelligence on this site. I post elsewhere, where the mainstream folks sound hateful, spiteful and generally egotistical. So I find it interesting that a interest in BDSM attracts such high IQ's (not that it shouldn't as you must truly understand yourself to choose this lifetstyle) But much like my multi-chapter stories, I digress.

I think that the word "power" is immaterial. All "power" is based on coersion and compliance of some form (psych 101) and therefore fleeting. Every creature has a point at which they "break" and power over them is only the ability to destroy or release (earlier experiments in psychology proved this). I think more important however, is that it is not about power, but dominance and submission. Does a sub have power? of course not. But nor do they seek such or they would be a dominant. What about 'safe words'? These aren't power, they are a request. But can't a sub decide not to engage or to leave? Not if they are a real sub and that would be "flight" not "fight" so its really not power its avoidance. So I submit that if your lifestyle is one of "role playing" BDSM then it is a "game", games have rules and power is equally divided and at one level it is not truly dominant/submissive because there are in fact rules. If your lifestyle is truly dominant/submissive then the engagement is determined by the dominant and the submissive has no power except that which is granted - which is not power at all. Hey but what do I know - I just really liked the intelligent conversation. :)

denuseri
06-12-2010, 04:13 AM
I am an author not a practitioner so my point of view may not carry as much weight as those of you with actual experience.

If your point of view is logical I personally don’t care weather you are a real life practitioner, are here for the literary aspects of the site or just hanging around to have some online fun. I do however appreciate your honesty.

I comment because fir I am impressed at the level of intelligence on this site. I post elsewhere, where the mainstream folks sound hateful, spiteful and generally egotistical. So I find it interesting that a interest in BDSM attracts such high IQ's (not that it shouldn't as you must truly understand yourself to choose this lifetstyle) But much like my multi-chapter stories, I digress.

I think that the word "power" is immaterial. All "power" is based on coersion and compliance of some form (psych 101) and therefore fleeting.

I would surmise that this is the case with most things in life, but also maby not so fleeting when properly maintained.

Every creature has a point at which they "break" and power over them is only the ability to destroy or release (earlier experiments in psychology proved this).

If your not pushed to the breaking point, than sufice to say that one need not be made to break nessesaraly no?

I think more important however, is that it is not about power, but dominance and submission.

Holding or surrendering of power by any other names perhaps?

Does a sub have power? of course not.

Both actually have power to one degree or another in my experience, but it is "exchanged" in what may apear to be a one sided manner at first glance yet can also at times be flowing in the other direction or balanced depending upon a variety of factors.

But nor do they seek such or they would be a dominant.

Not nessesarally, for instance, I am a slave, yet I hold dominion over that which I can hold dominion over, (which all people do in real life bdsm or otherwise) while I submit to those who hold dominion over me, I am quite cabable of seeking power, and on occassions even enjoying it when I have it, but I submit to my owner and those others who can hold dominion over me, becuase in certian circumstances power is exerted over me in such fashion that I choose to submit or am forced to admit that such dominion indeed exists.

What about 'safe words'? These aren't power, they are a request. But can't a sub decide not to engage or to leave? Not if they are a real sub and that would be "flight" not "fight" so its really not power its avoidance.

The dominanit party is just as capable of picking up his or her toys and leaving or avoiding the equation as well, so imho this is a moot point.

So I submit that if your lifestyle is one of "role playing" BDSM then it is a "game", games have rules and power is equally divided and at one level it is not truly dominant/submissive because there are in fact rules. If your lifestyle is truly dominant/submissive then the engagement is determined by the dominant and the submissive has no power except that which is granted - which is not power at all. Hey but what do I know - I just really liked the intelligent conversation. :)

If you watch the people around you and their personal interactions you will see D/s behavior at work in allmost every human exchange, not just in a bdsm capacity.

Ozme52
06-12-2010, 03:02 PM
I like the employer/employee illustration. I submit that it may be a bit simplistic for the description of relationships.Of course. Simplification makes complex ideas comprehensible. Analogies are wonderful for using that way.

Power seems to be as a word too vague. It describes the possession, by one party, of a thing of value desired by the other party. Me having, and you wanting, is leverage. I now have the ability to compel you, to a degree. The value that YOU place on the thing I possess determines the extent of that leverage - how far I can push. This took me a while to think about... something wrong with it and now I see it. I disagree because it's part and parcel of that initial contract. The employer has all that power over me as the employee... but I agreed to it "in exchange" for that paycheck. A D/s power exchange is the same. The sub cedes power to the dom because of what they get in exchange, something they need, desire, or covet. An employee may even get to wield power within that exchange (take the cases of a middle manager,) or just as in ancient times, a slave might have run the household affairs on behalf of the master, or in a M/s relationship, the sub runs their household, raises the kids, etc, though still under the direction of the master.


This simple dynamic describes employment, because -generally- in a work environment the employee is replaceable. That depends on the skills and training of the employee... or the submissive. Not all are easily replaced. weg


In a relationship both parties have leverage. And that depends on the nature of the negotiations and subsequent relationship. Certainly some pairings are more one-sided than others.
Her desires place value on my strength, stability, attention... My desires place value on HER stability, submission, ability to compartmentalize... Then that is what you two exchange. It does not ipso facto give her power over you


Codependency is another way of saying mexican standoff. If I did not value my sub's emotional welfare, I would have all the leverage. I would also be a douchebag. ^.^ Co-dependancy is a negative concept imo. Co-dependents can't function without each other... and that's less of a relationship and more like a negative-symbiosis (to coin a term,) and certainly not a mexican stand-off. Co-dependents wield zero power over each other. They can only function with each other and that's very far from a D/s relationship imo.


Even situations where the sub claims to have no self regard seem to me to be false, because that in itself is a trait that any dom could value, and thus the sub has gained leverage... Power...

Occam's razor. It is called a power exchange because it is, and in a very literal sense.

Pardon me; I often use typing to think. :)
-matin

Well, in this I disagree, because you use power exchange to mean exchanging one kind of power for another and this itself is what leads to this confusion over who has power. Again, the sub trades his/her power to me in exchange for things s/he values from me... and that's not power.

rocco
06-13-2010, 09:33 AM
hyperthectically;
can a sub, submit to themselves? can a dominant, dominate thereself?
i know this statement sounds odd! but try and understand it.
is a brick wall stable without its cement? no.
i think the "power" holds the relationship together. with out one or the other there is nothing.
this power is revolves around love, trust, and honesty.
as mentioned earlier it "flows" through that particular relationship, bonding the two or maybe more involved.
if say, i knew one of you but you didnt know me, and i knocked on your door and said ive come to submit or dominate you. at first glance would you let me in? probably not!
but if time went by and we got to know each other well, and slowly that "power" began to circle us then maybe! this is where the outside world fails to understand the term bdsm. its a relationship built on specific "love oriented power" and thats what makes us unique. :)

Matin
07-10-2010, 09:11 PM
<--- needs to think about the last two posts more ^_^

NiNLover
07-12-2010, 11:32 PM
I'd like to say both. . .

I mean, it's a power exchange, so both parties are giving power to each other. Neither really has the most because both can stop the other whenever they want. Although there are times when it can shift, like when a scene is being played out. Then I think the sub's got it more because they can stop the scene whenever they choose. It really depends on what's going on, imo.

Red Dragon {mpellegrino}
07-12-2010, 11:55 PM
Aloha all

Interesting reading this thread. I have a slightly different view to offer up to the group.

To me this question is like that of the conumdrum of the meaning of life the universe and everything in a way (okay, okay I know the answer is 42). It is a subject you can consider for as long as you like and yet never reach a group agreement on. Everyone will have their view and who can really stop someone having a differing view in the light of no right or wrong answer.

So I would humbly suggest that power share is whatever you wish it to be. What you wish it to be abd what it is are possibly two different things anyway. In fact my view would be it is an ever shifting sea and so hard to define at most times except at either ends of the spectrum. This makes it a fantastic topic of discussion for finding others thoughts but something, perhaps not to loose sleep over, as you will never find the definitive answer.

Just a thought or two. (Ducks while rest of thread throw stuff at old Dragon.)

Mahalo - Dragon (Hope some of this made sense :) )

Matin
07-13-2010, 09:23 PM
"If you choose not to decide / You Still have made a choice!"

Copy that.