Challenging one's Dominant

[SauvagePouline]

Hypothetical situation. A nondrinking slave and her Master are at a wedding. Before he can even ask, she informs him that she will NOT be drinking, not even for the toast, not even for him.

What does this say for her submission to him? Her trust of him? What if other submissives or Dominants witness this exchange? Or if he has more than one slave, what if another of his slaves is there?


respectfully,

pony (SR)

[Hamishlacastle]

Lol it seems to me that you would have discussed this with him ahead of time. everyone respects that some people cant drink.

[Hamishlacastle]

It seems to me that the question of other slaves should have been part of your intitation. If he is not honest with you, run

[Lion]

Everyone has their hard limits, and he should respect those

[dewran59]

I agree of what Hamishlacastle have said, to discuss the issues with your Master in advance and if there is/are of His slaves in attendance...Well, your Master should be honest with you that there will be another of his slaves at the wedding and also if you are not drinking..you can always fill the glass with either a water or an apple juice for a toast;)

[jeanne]

I think you all are missing the point. It's not the drinking or not drinking, it's not about whether or not other slaves, other Dominants, his other slaves, etc. are present. It's about this piece of the question:

Before he can even ask,...

She presumed. She made a blanket announcement based upon an assumption (that he would have asked/expected her to), she made a big deal about it in front of others, and she embarrassed him and made herself look like a 3-year-old who doesn't know how to act.

What was she trying to prove?

[Miner]

precisely, jeanne. And for taking that confrontational and disrespectful attitude, punishment would definitely be in order.

[SauvagePouline]

thank you for clarifying Jeanne -smiles- And it is an honest to god hypothetical (granted I did SOMETHING to have been ordered to make this post, but it wasn't that particular example)

So feedback based on that interpretation would be great.

pony

[leah06]

I think it depends on whether she does this kind of thing a lot. If so, then maybe she has an unusual idea of what submission means. But if this is very out of character for her, then I think it speaks more to something about that situation - not drinking is very very important to her, or weddings freak her out, or having another slave around made her nervous. Punishment is fine, if that's how you roll, but I think it's more important to figure out why she had this sort of extreme moment. It almost sounds like a fight-or-flight to me.

[denuseri]

Dear Pouline

It might help to have the actual as opposed to the hypothetical specifics.

Context is everything.

Are you looking for a punnishment idea? Or are you in disagreement with your dominant as to what punnishment he is proposing? Or is he sending you here to hear the opinions of others as to what it is you have allready been punnished for? Without knowing the details it is hard to provide feedback other than to say the punnishment (if any) should fit the crime (if any). Sometimes a stern reminder will do where a good whipping would be overkill. There are different levels to submission that may or may not apply in your relationship dynamic (or that of the hypothetical slave) that would have to be considered before advising you further.

For instance you said she is a slave, this implies a whole different set of standards to be applied in some peoples opinion than what would be applicable for a submissive.

Did the hypothetical slave make the comment in jest or simpley to remind her master that she doesnt drink alcohol becuase he is forgetful or new to the use of the whip?

The hypothetical situation you provided implies that their is a pre-existing disagreement as to weather or not the "slave's limits have been respected in the past.

Which is why so many responded to that part of the issue I believe. Though in my own opinion the crux of the matter is as jeanne pointed out.

In any event, without knowing the specfics its difficult to judge the context and hence the appropriate advice to give.

Respectfully

denuseri

[Archeon]

Ok let me chime in on this one.

First of all, you specifically stated slave and Master. As Denu mentioned, slavery implies a whole other set of factors, namely, a slave does as she is told, and hard limits technically do not apply in the dynamic based on the most widely accepted definition of a slave.

Now assuming your hypothetical is real (because i obviously dont know the real situation), and on the assumption the person involved is a slave, unless there is a valid medical reason why she should not even take one sip at the toast to her marriage, I would not accept it as a valid hard limit. Taking one sip of alcohol to most people is not going to kill you or cause any kind of mental trauma - valid reasons why a Master shouldn't inflict something on a slave.

In terms of how the situation is approached, if my slave said to me "I am not doing X" then I think I would have a serious problem with that, especially in the way it is described in the hypothetical, it comes across as rude, disrespectful and if it had happened to me would have been entirely unacceptable.

How you ask for things is everything. If in the hypothetical the slave had said "Master would it be ok if I toasted with a non alcoholic drink" that would come across a lot better than "I am not toasting as I don't drink (and to hell with you if you want me to do otherwise)". See the different in context? Being a slave does not mean you don't ever get your own way, but how you ask for things and request things is everything.

Regards,

Arch

p.s. this answer would be entirely different if the person in the hypothetical was a submissive, not a slave.

[Ozme52]

jeanne has hit the nail on the head (or ass on the cheek if you prefer.)

If you are someone's submissve (including slaves) and you haven't revealed you are a tea-totaller or the equivalent before now, you've entered into the relationship unwisely or under false pretenses.

Worse still, if we're actually talking about a medical condition, (including alcoholism.)

In either of the above circumstances, I suggest you both reevaluate your currently suitability to the lifestyle of submission. You have a lot of growing to do still.

But I suspect that is not the actual case.

If this is not the first time the issue has come up, if the "limit" has been discussed but not agreed upon, and the submissive is making his or her stand in this manner, you have other issues to deal with, and they are severe, in my opinion, because there has been a breakdown in the nature of the D/s relationship.

Consider what you have done. You have pre-empted the dominant. Wrested away choice. Wrested away control. And demonstrated you don't trust him in this matter. Where's the submission? Especially as you will always have the option to refuse (and if it is important enough to him to insist, you have the right to end the D/s nature of the relationship, if not the whole relationship.)

[fallenstar]

i completely agree with jeanne. whether she wanted to drink or not isnt an issue. if drinking or Not drinking Is a big issue, it should have been brought up with her master beforehand. then at the wedding, she could prevent causing such a disrespectful scene by which made it clear she had no respect for her master

[leah06]

I still think that if someone suddenly acts very out of character in a relationship, D/s or vanilla, the first thing to do is ask why.

[lady kisa]

Well, i think if that said slave was an alcoholic, that any ingestion of booze could send them into a relapse, which would cause harm to the slave and potential the master as well. However, That is something that should of been spoke of at the beginning of the slave/master realtionship. I have to agree that the timing points to the slave embaressing the master in public, and punishment seems deserved.

[SauvagePouline]

Those of you asking about AA and such are thinking too hard.

The question was to start general discussion, not so much to ask for people about that specific situation. Master wanted me to get people's feedback about slaves challenging their Masters in general, not JUST my hypothetical example.


Thank you to everyone for your feedback, I do appreciate it.


pony