Truth

[nerameshu]

This little thought came to me the other day while studying the mind manipulation techniques of the ancient Japanese ninja.

"Truth and opinion are one."

The reasoning:

1. Ask someone about something that happened in their day. You will often hear about how a person they know was "mad", or a happening was "miraculous". Ask them to remove the emotional thought from it. What is left?

2. Describe a situation to someone. That person will tell you their opinion of it. Because of their life, that shall be the truth. But is it wrong?

Basically, everything we observe as humans must pass several "filters" in our head. When we see someone just sitting in their chair at the office, for example, we process more than just them sitting in that chair. If we know that person's temperament, that affects what we see. If we hear a rumor about that person, that gets thrown into our judgement too. If we're mad, we assume that person will be too.

Although we observe one thing, our mind will, unintentionally, twist it into something else because of whatever else may be happening in our lives. I'd like to hear what you think.

[Thorne]

I don't have a problem with this concept. It's well known that eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable, mainly because of this built-in bias. It's been shown that people are more likely to see what they expect to see than what really is. Most optical illusions and stage magicians rely upon this.

[denuseri]

The truth of the matter is: that regardless of your prespective or bias to something...it still is what it is, even when one denies it.

The tree or a rock or the sky, like truth, doesnt give a hoot if one believes in it or not.

[nerameshu]

I apologize if this seems pretty simple, but I'm only 19, lol. Small revelations like this seem to be groundbreaking epiphanies to me.

But like I said, I basically realized this while reading a book on ninja mind manipulation. Something else the book mentions is how to alter a person's mindset. Although I'm interested in using it in a session, I'm afraid to use it myself. (I'm a notoriously bad negotiator!) Have you witnessed manipulation that may or may not altered your perception of truth?

[Thorne]

Have you witnessed manipulation that may or may not altered your perception of truth?

Watch John Edwards, of Crossing Over fame. Or Sylvia Brown. Or any number of self-proclaimed psychics, astrologers or fortune tellers. They use this kind of manipulation exquisitely well, deluding their followers into believing all kinds of inane things.

Or you might just want to give up on the quacks and start studying psychology. Learn how the mind works and you learn how to make it work for you.

[rissaya]

Wouldn't it be a part of perception? Perception colors truth, and so, our opinion of the truth. Like a picture of a scene. It captures a three dimensional scene in two dimensions. What it shows is the truth, for it, if not for another picture taken from elsewhere. The point of view, from where the picture was taken could be the opinion, and it would be the truth as well, but not the actual truth. The funny thing is, the actual truth can never be actually found by a 2D camera now, can it?

[Thorne]

Wouldn't it be a part of perception? Perception colors truth, and so, our opinion of the truth. Like a picture of a scene. It captures a three dimensional scene in two dimensions. What it shows is the truth, for it, if not for another picture taken from elsewhere. The point of view, from where the picture was taken could be the opinion, and it would be the truth as well, but not the actual truth. The funny thing is, the actual truth can never be actually found by a 2D camera now, can it?

Perception plays a very important part, to be sure. As does perspective. When viewing something from one particular position you are limited in what you can see. While what you see might be the truth, it's not necessarily the whole truth. What we have to be careful of is allowing our minds to fill in the blanks.

For example, someone sitting at the edge of a pool, in a yard surrounded by a high wall, sees a man come flying over the wall and landing in the pool. What truths can be determined here?

Well, we know he came flying over the wall, and he landed in the pool. But claiming he was shot from a cannon, or thrown from a car, or any number of other guesses would not necessarily be the truth. We can only know what we can see, hear, taste, touch, smell. If you start telling the story about the man who was dropped from a flying saucer into your pool, soon you'll actually believe it's true. Even when shown proof that it was only the neighbors kid jumping from his trampoline, you'll still believe deep inside that you actually saw the flying saucer.

[rissaya]

Perception plays a very important part, to be sure. As does perspective. When viewing something from one particular position you are limited in what you can see. While what you see might be the truth, it's not necessarily the whole truth. What we have to be careful of is allowing our minds to fill in the blanks.

For example, someone sitting at the edge of a pool, in a yard surrounded by a high wall, sees a man come flying over the wall and landing in the pool. What truths can be determined here?

Well, we know he came flying over the wall, and he landed in the pool. But claiming he was shot from a cannon, or thrown from a car, or any number of other guesses would not necessarily be the truth. We can only know what we can see, hear, taste, touch, smell. If you start telling the story about the man who was dropped from a flying saucer into your pool, soon you'll actually believe it's true. Even when shown proof that it was only the neighbors kid jumping from his trampoline, you'll still believe deep inside that you actually saw the flying saucer.

True. :d
However, we do this all the time, don't we? Eventually, everything that we accept as true, rests upon some blanks that we consciously or unconsciously fill, without actually 'knowing' if they are valid. This happens even with events that occur directly to us. In regular life, I don't think we can ever perceive the 'whole truth', because such a thing would be totally without any blanks to fill. Can we really ever be sure about what lies beyond the wall? It may very well be a flying saucer or a cannon. Truth then, would be a matter of convenience, so as to complete a picture so that we know (not actually know), what happened.

[Thorne]

Can we really ever be sure about what lies beyond the wall? It may very well be a flying saucer or a cannon. Truth then, would be a matter of convenience, so as to complete a picture so that we know (not actually know), what happened.

A matter of convenience would be to accept such speculation as truth, so we can remain comfortably in our chair. To learn the truth requires leaving our chair, climbing that wall and looking to see what's on the other side. Knowledge leads to truth, but it doesn't just drop into your lap, or your pool. You have to seek it out.

It's like trying to reach a destination by traveling half the remaining distance each day. The longer you travel, the closer you get, but you can never truly arrive.

Oh, and while you're at it, don't forget to get the poor SOB out of the pool!

[thir]

We can only know what we can see, hear, taste, touch, smell.

That is not even true for animals, who can learn and remember.

[rissaya]

A matter of convenience would be to accept such speculation as truth, so we can remain comfortably in our chair. To learn the truth requires leaving our chair, climbing that wall and looking to see what's on the other side. Knowledge leads to truth, but it doesn't just drop into your lap, or your pool. You have to seek it out.

Yet, to be absolutely sure that something is true, you need something that is already known to be true, to support it. My point is that there are walls beyond the wall you first climb, and then more walls beyond that, and so on. I can search for knowledge, but when can I, if I ever can, be sure that what I have gathered around me is true?



It's like trying to reach a destination by traveling half the remaining distance each day. The longer you travel, the closer you get, but you can never truly arrive.

Absolute truth is the destination. The path is laid with broken perspectives and subjective truths. And you never reach the end. Something like Tantalus reaching for the apple that always moves beyond his reach.


Oh, and while you're at it, don't forget to get the poor SOB out of the pool!

:D

[Thorne]

That is not even true for animals, who can learn and remember.

Learn and remember what? How? Is knowledge poured into us from some vast, invisible reservoir? Can we know that fire is hot without actually feeling it at least once? Can we know what salt tastes like without actually tasting it? I would love to hear some examples of something we, or animals, can know without first having some initial sensual contact.

ALL of our knowledge is ultimately based on our five senses. We observe our surroundings through them and must base our understanding of those surroundings upon them. Yes, we can speculate about some things which we cannot actually sense, and we can draw conclusions based upon those speculations. But until we actually see evidence for, or against, those speculations and conclusions we cannot know whether they are true or false.

[Thorne]

Yet, to be absolutely sure that something is true, you need something that is already known to be true, to support it. My point is that there are walls beyond the wall you first climb, and then more walls beyond that, and so on. I can search for knowledge, but when can I, if I ever can, be sure that what I have gathered around me is true?
This is exactly the point I was making. We can never be absolutely sure. The most we can say is that, as far as we know this is true. If something comes along at some future date which contradicts what we "knew" to be true, our knowledge is wrong and must be changed or discarded.


Absolute truth is the destination. The path is laid with broken perspectives and subjective truths. And you never reach the end. Something like Tantalus reaching for the apple that always moves beyond his reach.

Exactly.