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Stone
11-27-2010, 06:58 PM
Red Flags 6 Comments
Note by MasterBarton about 2 years ago

Red Flags

“Red flag” is a term to describe a personal trait or behavior that is common in people who are harmful to their partners. When getting to know someone it is very important that you look for these red flags. When you see these red flags, slow down or stop the relationship. Understand that none of these red flags alone are definitely a sign of a bad person. They only tend to be an indicator of a problem situation. The more you see these red flags, the more you are at risk. Many of these red flags can apply to both unhealthy Doms and subs.

These recommendations are to help you avoid getting into an abusive relationship. If you think you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship please visit NLA’s Domestic Violence Project web page at: http://www.nlaidvproject.us/

Red Flags:

•Tries to separate you from your friends, family or BDSM community.

•Avoids talking about personal details. Gets mad when you ask or quickly ends the conversation or answers questions with questions.

•Has no BDSM references or friends you can talk to. Gets angry when you ask for references or ask around about them.

•Is inconsistent with details about themselves. Does not give you their home and work phone number at the appropriate time.

•Only communicates with you at strange hours and gets mad if you try to contact them at other times.

•Criticizes the BDSM community and refuses to participate, especially if they never were part of it.

•Consistently breaks promises. Always finds excuses for not meeting.

•Always puts blame on others for things going wrong. Does not take personal responsibility.

•Has bad relationships with most or all of their family members.

•Pressures you into doing things you do not want to do. Does not respect your limits, negotiations or contracts.

•Pushes you into a D/s relationship too fast.

•Falls in love with you way too fast and swears undying love before even meeting you.

•Hides behind their D/s authority and says that their authority should not be questioned.

•Tries to make you feel guilty for not being good enough. Says that you are not a “True” sub.

•Loses control of their emotions in arguments and regresses to yelling, name-calling and blame.

•Puts you down in front of other people.

•Turns instantly on their friends, going from best friend to arch enemy at the drop of a hat.

•Treats you lovingly and respectfully one day and then harshly and accusingly the next.

•Goes to great lengths to get revenge on people.

•Lies or withholds information.

•Cheats on you or is overly jealous.

•Will not discuss what your possible future relationship could be like. Tries to keep you in the dark about what might happen next in the relationship.

•Does not respect your feelings, rights, or opinions. Belittles your ideas. Blames you for your hurt feelings.

•Abuses alcohol or other drugs.

•Is constantly asking for large amounts of money from you or others.

•Threatens suicide or other forms of self-harm.

•Deliberately saying or doing things that result in getting themselves seriously hurt.

•Monitors your communications (emails, phone calls, chats) with others.

•Only interacts with you in a kinky or sexual manner as if role-playing. Will not have normal everyday vanilla conversations.

•Never shows you their human side. Is emotionless. Hides their vulnerability behind their D/s role.

•Has multiple online identities for interacting with the same communities.

•Disappears from communication for days or weeks at a time without explanation.

•Is rude to public servants such as waitresses, cashiers and janitors.

•Never says thank you, excuse me or I am sorry to anyone.

This is NOT copyrighted material. Please copy and distribute freely.

_ID_
11-27-2010, 10:43 PM
Why are the red flags geared towards a bad Dom? There are bad subs.

Stone
11-28-2010, 12:32 AM
It can go either way and lets face facts....far more subby girls are victims of doms than vice versa

agog ab
11-28-2010, 08:35 AM
It was a great idea to post this. Hopefully some people will pay attention. Thanks.

Snark
11-28-2010, 11:17 AM
What you're describing is behavior that is consistent with a sociopath. I would recommend not getting too close to them regardless of the lifestyle.

Stone
11-29-2010, 09:35 AM
Exactly......but alot of people do not know the warning signs......So i came across this and thought its imformation people should have....

superfuture
12-04-2010, 12:28 PM
Thanks for posting this... it is really helpful :)

_ID_
12-04-2010, 05:14 PM
It can go either way and lets face facts....far more subby girls are victims of doms than vice versa

True that. Not mentioning both though just turns a blind eye to something going on, and therefore makes it okay.

peach
12-04-2010, 09:12 PM
@ID, i re-read that and there is a line that says "Many of these red flags can apply to both unhealthy Doms and subs." So many, if not all of these could apply either way, to subs or Doms. At least that is how i read it. A sub is just as capable of not repsecting limits, being overly emotional (jealous, angry, unstable) as a Dom. I think it points a few more things out to a subs point of view because if the sub is completely immobilized and not able to move, there is little to no risk that said Dom will be hurt in the process.

peach
12-04-2010, 09:14 PM
And this is by far not a complete list of things that can and do go wrong both in real life and online relationships. But it is a start, especially for new people, of things to watch out for. Feel free to add to in on this thread, as it was just intended to be a helpful first glance of common red flags.

lunaticlorraine
12-05-2010, 03:49 PM
•Threatens suicide or other forms of self-harm.

I would just like to make a comment about this.
As a sub who suffers from mental health problems this one could be complicated as to whether it is a 'red flag' or not.
Sometimes when I trust someone I will think allowed, or share my thoughts, feelings or problems. This could involve Suicide or Self-harm as I have done both in the past. I just wish to say that some people could take this as threatening suicide or self-harm, but in my case, and maybe others it is not. It is simply thinking allowed or asking for help at a difficult time. But I do agree that if someone threatens suicide or self-harm because you wont do something for them is a bad sign.

Just wanted to share this.

_ID_
12-05-2010, 05:54 PM
@ID, i re-read that and there is a line that says "Many of these red flags can apply to both unhealthy Doms and subs." So many, if not all of these could apply either way, to subs or Doms. At least that is how i read it. A sub is just as capable of not repsecting limits, being overly emotional (jealous, angry, unstable) as a Dom. I think it points a few more things out to a subs point of view because if the sub is completely immobilized and not able to move, there is little to no risk that said Dom will be hurt in the process.

My point was that it was written around a Male Dom who would raise flags. That you had to re-read to catch that it was also geared towards either side of the slash only proves my point.

rosebud
12-05-2010, 07:05 PM
Agreed, that this is a must read for those new and also, not so new! Thx for posting, Stone!

lucy
12-07-2010, 07:06 AM
All in all very true, although I disagree with quite a few 'red flags' on that list. For example those below. Maybe it should be added in that
(For simplicity's sake I'm assuming we're talking 'bout a self-proclaimed Dom)


•Pushes you into a D/s relationship too fast.
Maybe. But only if the sub in concern doesn't voice their objections. And what's too fast? And how to recognize it when the hormones go rampant?


•Falls in love with you way too fast and swears undying love before even meeting you.
Oh my. Now falling in love is a bad thing?


•Hides behind their D/s authority and says that their authority should not be questioned.
Doms that allow their authority to be questioned routinely get called douchebags.


•Loses control of their emotions in arguments and regresses to yelling, name-calling and blame.
Sounds like me when I'm on PMS.


•Monitors your communications (emails, phone calls, chats) with others.
That's bad? I don't think so. It only is bad when he uses whatever he sees to the sub's disadvantage.
Personally, i was pretty glad my Master kept an eye on my online activities after we got together.


•Only interacts with you in a kinky or sexual manner as if role-playing. Will not have normal everyday vanilla conversations.
Wot? it isn't all about sex and mindblowing orgasms?


•Never shows you their human side. Is emotionless. Hides their vulnerability behind their D/s role.
Let's face it: There's tons of chicks out there who think that's how a Dominant should be.


•Has multiple online identities for interacting with the same communities.
A sub would hardly know about that, right? And if she does it would be a red flag because of the dudes stupidity to let her know...

But I still hope a few people read it before they get their fingers burned, or worse. However, seeing how some people (especially women...) desperately throw themselves after every shitbag that claims to be a Dom i don't think this list will do much good.

Kuve {Sett}
12-08-2010, 09:12 PM
Lucy: The fact that a lot of subs, male and female, might ignore the advice in no way means the advice itself is bad, if it helps even a few fledgling subs avoid getting hurt it was worth the posting. It must never be forgotten that we are all individuals and that there is no one, single "correct" way to play, without open and honest two way communication, which is what the flags you cite would tend to eliminate, there is no way for a sub to ensure there own needs are met which will usually end the relationship anyway.

lucy
12-10-2010, 01:08 AM
Lucy: The fact that a lot of subs, male and female, might ignore the advice in no way means the advice itself is bad, if it helps even a few fledgling subs avoid getting hurt it was worth the posting.
Yup, right. That's exactly why I said that too.


... there is no one, single "correct" way to play, without open and honest two way communication ...
There is not one correct way with open and honest two way communication either, there are as many ways as there are relationships. But that's semantics. ;)


...there is no way for a sub to ensure there own needs are met which will usually end the relationship anyway.
It will? Really? It would be easy to paste links in here to a couple hundred threads on all different sites, including this, where you can read the tales of subs doing exactly this: Stay in a relationship in which their needs aren't met, or in which communication wasn't key but rather inexistent.

But still, if this list helps only one individual to stay out of harms way it was worth posting it. That much I completely agree with.

angelic.zest
12-10-2010, 08:21 PM
I would also like to add that using ones common sense can help a great deal! I know I have gotten into situations when i was brand new into the lifestyle and I would like to say I did some stupid stuff so I know how it is lol. I know not everyone has common sense but there has to be a gut feeling some where that tells that person "this just doesn't seem right". Plus asking around helps when making decisions, also trying to find a mentor can help also.

~little~miss~spitfire~
12-11-2010, 07:47 AM
I think everyone should have a copy of these pasted to their walls! So many of these flags are waving regarding someone in particular I met in the past week...so many there's enough for a jubilee celebration! Really it was the trying to stop me coming back into the Library because according to him neither of us had any need to come back here anymore since we found eachother that the biggest alarm went off in my head, I went straight back in and discovered precisely what had been going on, and that all the other red flags were waving merrily too! Trust your instinct people....it is rarely wrong.

selkie
01-05-2011, 10:02 PM
I wish that I had found this 7 years ago! Would have saved me 6 years of abuse with a wannabe dom (he doesn't deserve a capital letter) Funny how finding a real DOM and getting back in the community (there is that alienation thing) showed me how things are supposed to be!

Reya
01-06-2011, 01:14 AM
I would just like to make a comment about this.
As a sub who suffers from mental health problems this one could be complicated as to whether it is a 'red flag' or not.
Sometimes when I trust someone I will think allowed, or share my thoughts, feelings or problems. This could involve Suicide or Self-harm as I have done both in the past. I just wish to say that some people could take this as threatening suicide or self-harm, but in my case, and maybe others it is not. It is simply thinking allowed or asking for help at a difficult time. But I do agree that if someone threatens suicide or self-harm because you wont do something for them is a bad sign.

Just wanted to share this.

Asking for help or sharing concerns about suicide or self-harm are things that SHOULD be talked about in a healthy and honest relationship as people with thoughts or suicide or self harm really need to rely on close friends and family for support. So many people don't ask for help and when the warning signs are missed, bad things can and do happen.

That said, I'm fairly certain the point on this list refers to "If you dump me I'll kill myself". I've been a victim of this in a past relationship and while my story ended happily with him receiving treatment and myself looking for a new boyfriend, a lot of people find themselves stuck in an abusive relationship for reasons like this.

In response to _ID_: Some of the points on here I believe are pointed towards subs (Or in my mind at least they are, but obviously each of these points can be geared towards a dom). The threatening suicide or self harm is a big one. Another is: "Falls in love with you way too fast and swears undying love before even meeting you." (I've been a victim of this one too... I blocked him from my phone and online immediately and haven't spoken to him since, thank goodness.)

Stone
01-11-2011, 06:30 AM
Yes most of these can be for either role....and lucy yes someone falling in love with you and saying you are the love of their life after talking to them for a week online and never meeting them is a huge red flag.......I dont know about you but I dont fall in love that easily.....and yes it's not all about sex........if its all about sex the dom could jsut get a blow up doll and a bottle of lube......there is the little thing called service....you know doing non-sexual things for your dom/me....and yes my sub can question my role and authority....and I will tell them why it is the way it is they can accept it or not....but to just say becuase i said so and do not question me is rather lame...and a dom/me that can not control themselfs or their emotions is a bad thing......or is it ok if I had a really shitty day at work to come home pissed off and beat the shit out of my sub and call her names and such for no other reason than I am mad and "can't" control myself or my emotions.....

zee
01-11-2011, 10:23 PM
Wow - great information and great discussion. I just love this community (sigh....)

Many of these traits are signs it's time to run like hell, regardless of the relationship. I can see where they could be especially detrimental in a Dom.

Lady FireinIce
01-18-2011, 04:27 PM
•Is constantly asking for large amounts of money from you or others.




•Is constantly asking for large amounts of money from you or others.

•Has multiple online identities for interacting with the same communities.

•Disappears from communication for days or weeks at a time without explanation.




I am new to taking My Financial Dominance kink from private to Openly practicing it. Some people get turned on and not off by being financialy raped, humiliated and the like. However I concur that just asking any and everyone for money would be a huge flag as it should be for any who do not lean that way.

Use of multiple Identities in and of itself could be a person testing their kink, I progressed from a complete newbie to a slave personna taKara (I quickly learned I was more S/switch than slave before finding My true role of Goddess ;~P). In some cases the different personnas have more to do with not yet being publicly "Out". In My case I live in a very uptight community where the perdominant Religion frowns on anything that isn't to their standards. I forgot My Yahoo and fb accounts were linked and had some rather uncomfortable explanations to make when I started my Own Yahoo group. So while this could be a red flag not all multiple ID's is for neffariuos purposes.

How many of U/us have had the perfect storm of events that take U/us from being active in whatever on-line community and or Real Time communities to finding O/ourselves without access to all our stored info ( Motherboard fries or Virus wipes everything clean), Computer access (Librarys do not allow adult material to be veiwed or descimnated over their networks) Income loss due to lay-off and/or health or Famililial problems consume U/us completely and unable to reach but one or two people that may in turn be unable to reach your contacts either?? I have and actually maintain the old yahoo e-mail addy for My S/switch days simply because I have numerous contacts that have also had simmilar life alterring issues and only rarely check their e-mail. Again at face value red flags .... ~S~


Thank You stone for the info, please consider My ramblings as that of a smart ass that just has to argue sometimes for arguments sake ~S~

alpha1043
01-19-2011, 03:42 PM
I think that list is fantastic its a scary world when you cant tell an honest lover of BDSM from a abusive sociopath and i really dont think thers enough safety propaganda out there to begin with.

VaAugusta
01-20-2011, 05:30 PM
Thank god for lucy.

Anyways, if you're too stupid to understand what constitutes for a redflag, you probably shouldn't be attempting a d/s relationship. Or any relationship for that matter.

Probably best to just stay inside.

Chekaman
01-20-2011, 07:38 PM
This is helpful to any would be sub or Dom/me.Thank you for posting it.

Stone
01-21-2011, 01:05 AM
Shakeshead....People its not a list where you check one box and go oh shit run away run away run away...one thing on this list most likely will amount to nothing but if said person has a check in every box...you better run like hell...mostly this is just warning signs you start seeing these behaviors and hopefully this list will trigger in you mind and make you go..maybe i should take a second look...

leo9
01-21-2011, 03:23 AM
What you're describing is behavior that is consistent with a sociopath. I would recommend not getting too close to them regardless of the lifestyle.

Stone's point is that it's easy for a starry-eyed newbie to think, or be persuaded, that such sociopathic behaviour is the mark of a "True Dominate" (spelling intended). Plenty of fantasy Doms (e.g. the heroes of lots of stories on the Library, including some I've written,) are sociopaths by real life standards. (In the same way that most action-adventure heroes are.) This is a reality checklist.

lucy
01-21-2011, 04:04 AM
Thank god for lucy.

Anyways, if you're too stupid to understand what constitutes for a redflag, you probably shouldn't be attempting a d/s relationship. Or any relationship for that matter.

Probably best to just stay inside.
Thank you. I'm not only attempting a d/s relationship, I think I'm doing a pretty good job at it. But if you think I'm too stupid I will of course log off and immediately ask my Master to release me....

Joking aside: I just pointed out that not all of those red flags are as red as one could believe, especially if not taken into context, as Stone has pointed out.
Plus, I really heavily doubted (and still doubt) that a lot of people read it before they get their fingers burned.
But if differing opinions aren't welcome I can easily shut up.

denuseri
01-22-2011, 09:11 AM
<<< Has no idea why people would be offended by this thread or the promotion of safety. It doen't make sence to get bent over people wishing to look out for other people, unless the redflag shoe fits for some reason.

I see way too many people come online who appear to leave their common sence at the log in screen. I was unfortunate enough to do that very thing myself once and almost paid the ultimate price. It pains me to think how many of my sisters make the same mistakes.

One of the things I like about this site over others is that it doesn't promote that kind of thinking (or lack there of) and I would like to thank them as well as the OP and others (I know you know who you are) for taking the time to remind people to keep a hold of that common sence and put safety first over kink.

VaAugusta
01-22-2011, 12:19 PM
I hope we can be critical of something without being presumed irresponsible. When posters use phrases such as: "a must read for those new". It's hard not to infer absolute terms are being used, when the list could be further from the truth. Indeed, as Snark stated these signs are consistent with a sociopath. However, to lump-sum would be a little misguided, and Stone stated that was not the intent but rather provide a guideline. The problem, at least to me, with the safety police is that it is impossible to use any list at all when it comes to safety. They are disjointed, to be exact. Either the claim is obvious:

"Goes to great lengths to get revenge on people."
I can only imagine an example. Hopefully a lot of maniacal laughing was used.

Or the claim is dubious:
"Has multiple online identities for interacting with the same communities."
As Lady FireinIce essentially disproved, not putting my real name on my yahoo messenger account actually promotes my own safety.

Then there is a third example I realized, the claim is opposite of reality:
"Has no BDSM references or friends you can talk to."
"Criticizes the BDSM community and refuses to participate, especially if they never were part of it."

I hope I can be forgiven for not wanting to hang out in a warehouse with some bald guys. To be completely honest, I find people who go to "dungeons" a lot, seem to be the most creepy and furtherest away from reality. Being part of the BDSM "community" doesn't make someone suddenly less dangerous. In fact, I feel I could argue (with equally strong premises as aforementioned, i.e. none) that they are more dangerous than normal people.

In conclusion, I feel that Snark's post is probably most accurate. If someone falls under the "obvious" category, then you would want to stay away from this revenge-seeker regardless of his or her sexual appetite. All non-obvious points listed are quite dubious/wrong, and should be viewed as such. Which, ironically, will cause the reader to question the integrity of the list at all. My hope is that it won't come to that, and any sane person can view any list like the one above with the grain of salt it deserves.

leo9
01-22-2011, 02:37 PM
<<< Has no idea why people would be offended by this thread or the promotion of safety. It doen't make sence to get bent over people wishing to look out for other people, unless the redflag shoe fits for some reason.
I think some people feel that this sort of hard headed reality check spoils the fun. To which I can only say that dating an axe murderer spoils the fun a whole lot more. (No, I'm not exagerating, some inadequately cautious subs have done literally that.)

I see way too many people come online who appear to leave their common sence at the log in screen. I was unfortunate enough to do that very thing myself once and almost paid the ultimate price. It pains me to think how many of my sisters make the same mistakes.Amen to that. I've been in touch with a few.


One of the things I like about this site over others is that it doesn't promote that kind of thinking (or lack there of) and I would like to thank them as well as the OP and others (I know you know who you are) for taking the time to remind people to keep a hold of that common sence and put safety first over kink.I second that.

Chekaman
01-22-2011, 02:51 PM
Safety must ALLWAYS come first.

thir
01-23-2011, 07:57 AM
My point was that it was written around a Male Dom who would raise flags.

Is it nessecary to say that this obviously goes for fem doms as well? Only, so many male subs are quite incredibly careless about their own safety!

thir
01-23-2011, 08:03 AM
But if differing opinions aren't welcome I can easily shut up.

I think first stage is to post such a red-flag list, stage two is to discuss it. It migh make many things clearer.

thir
01-23-2011, 08:17 AM
"Goes to great lengths to get revenge on people."
I can only imagine an example. Hopefully a lot of maniacal laughing was used.


There are people who can bear a serious and potentially dangrous grudge who would never dream of warning anyone. I am glad if you haven't met any.



Or the claim is dubious:
"Has multiple online identities for interacting with the same communities."
As Lady FireinIce essentially disproved, not putting my real name on my yahoo messenger account actually promotes my own safety.


That is why it is good to discuss the list - what is meant? What is the context? It is hard to make a list which is short yet covers everything.



Then there is a third example I realized, the claim is opposite of reality:
"Has no BDSM references or friends you can talk to."
"Criticizes the BDSM community and refuses to participate, especially if they never were part of it."

I hope I can be forgiven for not wanting to hang out in a warehouse with some bald guys.


BDSM communities vary a lot.



To be completely honest, I find people who go to "dungeons" a lot, seem to be the most creepy and furtherest away from reality. Being part of the BDSM "community" doesn't make someone suddenly less dangerous. In fact, I feel I could argue (with equally strong premises as aforementioned, i.e. none) that they are more dangerous than normal people.


Why should people who go to a club or organsations be "creepy and furthest away from reality?" Or, indeed, more dangerous than other people?
Since this is a newcomer's forum, and many are adviced to seek out bdsm societies, maybe you should explain this very emphatic view.

I have myself had only good experiences with such organisations, which gave me security when I started, and good friends which I have had for many years after.
[/QUOTE]

Stone
01-23-2011, 09:16 AM
yes when someone is part of a dungeon/club groups....then tend to be alot safer in fact.....why? becuase they have friends and referances to be a member of a dungeon means someone else spoke on thier behalf for them to become a member, and the ones who can,t fallow the rules get banned from the dungeon period...So which would you rather meet a dom who has no ties to the bdsm community, that no one knows, or a card carrying member at a dungeon?? I know which I would choose...

leo9
01-23-2011, 10:32 AM
unless the redflag shoe fits for some reason.


Where can I get those redflag shoes? They sound pretty cool :)

leo9
01-23-2011, 10:40 AM
Why should people who go to a club or organsations be "creepy and furthest away from reality?" Or, indeed, more dangerous than other people? Since he also thinks they're "some bald guys," this is obviously more based on prejudice than real experience. Those of us who actually have some contact with clubs would agree with you. But then, I'm a bald guy (well, retreating hairline,) as well as a fan of clubs, so obviously I'm creepy and far from reality.

VaAugusta
01-23-2011, 01:58 PM
I, too, can claim to have plenty of experience with BDSM clubs (as I did in my post!). However, that does not change the fact that there is no basis that dungeon goers are safer than non-dungeon goers.

Thir-- I was simply reversing the logic of the OP. By claiming that non-dungeon goers are more safe, I illustrated that there are no grounds that one group is more or less safe than the other. This was meant to parallel the OP's claim. Both assumptions are wrong, or at least too easily presumed.

lucy
01-23-2011, 03:40 PM
I think first stage is to post such a red-flag list, stage two is to discuss it. It migh make many things clearer.
I completely misunderstood VaAugusta's post. In the meantime he explained it to me and if I could I'd delete my last post.

If I had gone out mixing with the local BDSM-scene before I got to know my Master, I think I'd still be a (unhappy and certainly unsatisfied) vanilla. As a single girl I'd either have thought "oh noes! this's fucking predator central!" at the parties or else gotten comatose at one of the local munches.
So, yeah, I really hope the scene were you guys are is better ;)

thir
01-24-2011, 03:37 AM
I completely misunderstood VaAugusta's post. In the meantime he explained it to me and if I could I'd delete my last post.


Great when misunderstandings get cleared up :-) That is the good thing about this list, it usually happens rather than things blowing up.



If I had gone out mixing with the local BDSM-scene before I got to know my Master, I think I'd still be a (unhappy and certainly unsatisfied) vanilla. As a single girl I'd either have thought "oh noes! this's fucking predator central!" at the parties or else gotten comatose at one of the local munches.
So, yeah, I really hope the scene were you guys are is better ;)

I am still a bit confused - is this what you have actually experienced, or is it rumour? I think it is a big shame if these munches and societies do not work, but I realize they can be really different from place to place.

When I started out, I just went to one that I heard about on the radio - and I was on my way :-)

lucy
01-24-2011, 05:23 AM
Great when misunderstandings get cleared up :-) That is the good thing about this list, it usually happens rather than things blowing up.
The misunderstanding wasn't about this list.


I am still a bit confused - is this what you have actually experienced, or is it rumour? I think it is a big shame if these munches and societies do not work, but I realize they can be really different from place to place.

When I started out, I just went to one that I heard about on the radio - and I was on my way :-)
It's what I have experienced, once I (or we, rather) went out to the scene. Basically the people at the munches here are, well, to be honest, superboring. Also, there doesn't seem to be anybody below the age of 60 attending such a munch. I don't have a problem with older people, but sometimes it would be nice to discuss things with someone who's in about the same place in life as I am.
The parties, well, they were public ones. And badly managed, too. Still, if I hadn't known that they can be different, too, I would have thought that this is what a kink party has to be like. In the meantime we met a couple of good people who we occasionally see at private events. So, no more need to go to public parties and become wank fodder.

My biggest problem with this list: Methinks that people who are likely to make a bad choice are also very very very likely to jump in without thinking or gathering knowledge first. I.e., they will see this list only when it's too late.
Also, it is one more step for people to not take responsibility for themselves.
Plus, it will be misunderstood. There will be people ticking off the numbers on the list and they will forget to use for themselves a little bit more.



One of the things I like about this site over others is that it doesn't promote that kind of thinking (or lack there of) and I would like to thank them as well as the OP and others (I know you know who you are) for taking the time to remind people to keep a hold of that common sence and put safety first over kink.
Sometimes, when I look at the personals here, my skin begins to crawl and cold shivers run up and down my spine. Maybe moderating them wouldn't be such a bad idea, too.

lady kisa
01-25-2011, 05:37 AM
hello A/all,
thank you Stone for starting this thread. While i have enjoyed and am slightly frustrated by this thread.
I think the intention of this thread was to help point out possible safety concerns for submissives/Dom/mes.
i am slightly frustrated instead of taking the list at face value, i see peeps getting offended or saying well in certain circumstances its not a real safety concern.
I.E: the very idea that ooh hes only jealous on the 3rd tuesday of the month, so its okay. Or the rationale that a subbie should not have personal friends outside the realm of a dom's control. Or ask to speak with previous submissive since they should just take everything on blind faith because they are told to.
I try to look at the intent when i read anything. the intent i see is one of trying to point out a way to follow your desires, without experiencing unnecessary pain. And while i am glad we can all express ourselves here. I think that rationalizing abusive behavoir instead of trying to protect the new person from predators is not the best use of our knowledge as a community.

Stone
01-25-2011, 06:18 AM
Yep, this is not a comperhenshive list of all possible red flags that list would be alot longer but these are all very valid ones. As I said before someone that has one or 2 of these isnt a big deal but even with that said doesnt mean to not take a closer look. The most amusing thing I've seen so far is someone pop up a "red flag" by saying it's not a red flag. I myself pop up one red flag on this list.....now everyone can wonder which one......but people are still going to want to debate this list and say this or that, it is a good list and I stand behind it, this list is even useful to the nillas alot fo this can be applied to any relationship regaurdless if they are kinky or not, I know this would have come in handy to have back long ago in a galaxy far far away when I was nilla

DeityorDevil
02-17-2011, 01:48 AM
I stand behind it, this list is even useful to the nillas alot fo this can be applied to any relationship regaurdless if they are kinky or not, I know this would have come in handy to have back long ago in a galaxy far far away when I was nilla

This is a very excellent point, especially when the points listed are taken as a pattern, rather than individual incidents. If one person has a few online accounts because they're not "out" that is a very different thing say, than one person habitually creating profiles at one website over an extended period of time and using them to misrepresent themselves. A P/person who loses their temper over a bad day (or PMS, as mentioned ;) haha) is a very different creature than someone who exhibits consistent emotional lability or consistently loses their temper over stimuli that don't line up with the response given. These are all things that can be major "red flags" in any relationship, kink or otherwise. I would even hesitate to remain in a casual vanilla friendship with someone that exhibited a pattern of some of these behaviors.

Yes, late to the thread. But, I did just join, and thought this was highly relevant to comment on.

Avispet
02-19-2011, 08:26 PM
•Has no BDSM references or friends you can talk to. Gets angry when you ask for references or ask around about them.
•Criticizes the BDSM community and refuses to participate, especially if they never were part of it.
•Has bad relationships with most or all of their family members.

Guess everyone should just red flag me then. I don't belong to the "community" nor do I have any desire to do so. I also don't feel a need to go around asking others about someone. It's not a relationship by committee.
And if you knew my family, you'd had bad or no relationship with them either. Not everyone came from the Cleaver family.

Avispet
02-19-2011, 08:50 PM
Also, he monitors my activities online and I certainly have no problem with that.
I also know a woman whose master isolated her from friends and family when they first got together because he didn't want her to be distracted from their relationship. I'm sure she'd be tickled pink to know that should've been a red flag for her twenty odd years and five kids ago.

DeityorDevil
02-19-2011, 09:13 PM
I too have poor relationships with my biological family (no Cleavers here either) but I do have other people close to me in my life, despite the fact that by nature I'm kind of a spiky and cantankerous asshole. "Family" can include a wide variety of definitions. I don't think the list is meant to be prescriptive, simply things to be aware of. And no offense intended, but you do belong to this community, and have important information to contribute here, for the purposes of discussion or elucidation, or you'd not have posted, yes?

Stone
02-20-2011, 06:56 AM
Here we go again people picking one two three of them and saying OMG SERIAL KILLER RUN RUN RUN, people who tend to be dangerous have alot of these not just 1 2 or 3 of them, but like I have repeted over and over the more that get checked off the closer of a look one should take.....

Pegao
02-20-2011, 12:33 PM
thats pretty much the point of any list like this.. everybodys different anyway.. i bet any person on here could check of 1 or 2 of these for themselves.. maybe 3-4.. if it starts going down the list.. and theres more red flags than not.. maybe stop and think for a minute about whats going on..

kinda common sense.

Avispet
02-20-2011, 03:24 PM
"kinda common sense."

So if you're an adult and have at least a bit of common sense, why would you need a list?

thir
02-20-2011, 04:55 PM
"kinda common sense."

So if you're an adult and have at least a bit of common sense, why would you need a list?

Because it is a new situation and there is much you do not know.

Snark
02-20-2011, 06:40 PM
The thread reads "new to the life style". With many - if not most - new experiences and/or relationships, the novelty tends to cloud the influence of "common sense". As Sam Clemmons (Mark Twain to the uninformed) penned a few decades ago - "Sense ain't common". If it were, everyone would have it. Actually, sense is far from common. So, without a plethora of common sense and a clouded intelligence due to the novelty, the check list has great merit. As I said early on, if you understand the concept of a sociopath, this list is unnecessary. But the actuality is that all too many people live on cruise control and forget that there ARE sociopaths out there. The TV show "Criminal Minds" is not just fabrication. It is a reflection. Arguing the merits of the list without considering the reality of the people exposed by it will only result in headlines. Having once been in the News industry and seeing the result firsthand, I can freaking guarantee that some of those who don't stop and consider these consequences of ignoring this will in fact become a: headlines and b: casualties.

DeityorDevil
02-20-2011, 09:10 PM
"kinda common sense."

So if you're an adult and have at least a bit of common sense, why would you need a list?

A great deal of the time lust leads people to do stupid things.


Arguing the merits of the list without considering the reality of the people exposed by it will only result in headlines.

Unfortunately, this is a very scary potential reality.

VaAugusta
02-21-2011, 09:32 AM
On a personal note:

I'm a bit new to the zoo community, I don't go very often.. But when I do, believe me, I don't need a sign telling me not to go into the lion pit.

...

Snark
02-21-2011, 10:48 AM
Bestiality is a different thread! :;)

Avispet
02-21-2011, 09:34 PM
On a personal note:

I'm a bit new to the zoo community, I don't go very often.. But when I do, believe me, I don't need a sign telling me not to go into the lion pit.

...

I certainly hope you set up a safe call beforehand.

Avispet
02-21-2011, 09:48 PM
Because it is a new situation and there is much you do not know.

So, when starting to explore d/s, somehow people suddenly forget everything they've ever done before? People who supposedly have been getting to know other people, dating, having relationships for years up until this point without benefit of a list.

DeityorDevil
02-22-2011, 11:15 AM
With varying degrees of success... Arguably, if one has their wits around them and is practicing common sense, a "warning list" is uneccesary. And if that were consistently the case, no one would feel the need to say, "hm, newer or inexperienced folks seem to have problems with xyz. How about we make a list of xyz just in case?" No list can be a perfect reflection of reality, nor apply universally. I think it's simply descriptive, rather than prescriptive, if it doesn't apply, then it doesn't. I don't think it was posted as a condemnation of anyone, just as a selection of potentially problematic behaviors, with the intent of benefitting others who might not be aware of them.

Anita Blake
02-25-2011, 10:46 AM
Shakeshead....People its not a list where you check one box and go oh shit run away run away run away...one thing on this list most likely will amount to nothing but if said person has a check in every box...you better run like hell...mostly this is just warning signs you start seeing these behaviors and hopefully this list will trigger in you mind and make you go..maybe i should take a second look...

Stone, I think this is superb and I am glad you posted it. I think is good advice for any relationship, not just D/s. But instead of running like hell, can I borrow your chainsaw?

Lady_Vampyra_Bytes
02-25-2011, 11:03 AM
Reading the red flags could also be taken into non bdsm life, I thinik with a bit of editing it could apply toany type of abusive relationship and be posted on a site for help with escaping anabusive relationship and for those not too sire if they are in an abusive relationship and may save someone out there as well.

Pegao
02-25-2011, 01:25 PM
i know ive seen similar lists posted on other relationship forums.. not as much reference to bdsm community.. but just community in general.. probably wouldnt show up in a bunch of places if it was totally w/out value..

Stone
02-26-2011, 10:41 AM
yes these warning signs apply to any and all relationships bdsm or nilla, I have said before I wish I had had such a list back in my nilla days would have avoided some ugliness

scarlet_85
03-31-2011, 10:16 PM
As far as suicidal thoughts go, I feel that if a Master is that mentally unstable, the playing should stop. I had a very close friend that showed a lot of signs on this red flag list, including suicide, and felt that had I of submitted to him I would have been used as a punching bag (if you will). On a friendship level I was willing to help but on a Master/slave level I could not allow it. Love this post by the way. Very helpful :)

walkingdude225
04-11-2011, 11:34 AM
thanks for the post

foxy lady
04-17-2011, 03:08 AM
What a gr8 post!! i wish i found this the day i loggon for the first time. Really great advice! and spoke like someone that has experienced a lot. thank for the share :-)

bigdaddy560
04-30-2011, 04:18 PM
very informative and nicely formatted !!

Cold Harbor
05-25-2011, 11:43 PM
Stone, thanks for putting this out there for the community to kick around. It's such an important topic to discuss and the highly charged responses reflect that very fact. I think if the list had feelings it was be squeeling "Thank you sir/madam, may I have another."

10K
06-12-2011, 11:42 AM
Shakeshead....People its not a list where you check one box and go oh shit run away run away run away...one thing on this list most likely will amount to nothing but if said person has a check in every box...you better run like hell...mostly this is just warning signs you start seeing these behaviors and hopefully this list will trigger in you mind and make you go..maybe i should take a second look...

I think I can agree with this, it is logical that one or maybe two of many of these alone are just harmless coincidences...in most cases, two could also be a terrible sign.

I do think however that there are some in here that alone would warrant extreme caution even alone. Such as "•Tries to separate you from your friends, family or BDSM community." You shouldn't be isolated, that could be very dangerous.

spazzakazz
07-20-2011, 06:16 AM
This is a great list to have out there, especially on a forum like this. It's unfortunate but the public image of BDSM has a lot of appeal for assholes and people with no self esteem. It sometimes seems like people think a good Dom should be cruel and make their sub miserable. I really think a good Dom should be a good person, someone who is actually worth devoting yourself to. Your red flag list is particularly important for new subs to read, to help them avoid getting involved with people who are only going to hurt them and can't be trusted. I know that is a big worry of mine as I'm starting to look for a real life Domme. I have pretty good gut instincts, but I do worry that in my excitement over meeting someone I might do something stupid.

okay really?
09-01-2011, 07:41 AM
I am new here and wanted to comment even if this is an old thread- I am not nor have ever been part of the of the bdsm scene (though have always had the desire to experience it). I am proud I have reached out this much as just registering for this site has me nervous. What I wanted to say is my first real relationship (meaning first sex) was with someone that possessed probably 12 or 13 of these traits on the list and that excludes the ones strictly applicable to bdsm. Of course I was inexperience and very young but I do remember my friends warning me off of the relationship and my reply being "I know, he is very intense but don't worry we are just dating -I'm not going to marry the guy", well guess what- I married the guy. I don't really know how it happened but I remember my back sliding down the wall as I cried while I was being told we were getting married or the relationship was over as he insisted I be with him all the way or not at all; very romantic wouldn't you say? Anyway, that was a very long time ago and the point of all this is that sociopaths are not only cunning at mind games but their choice of who to entrap is usually someone they sense would be pliable, ergo submissive. Some of us have learned the hardway and It makes it that much harder to step off the ledge when on the outside we have built a shell that gives the message we are the farthest from wanting to be dominated but on the inside in secret has remained a unmet need.

delish
09-02-2011, 12:26 AM
Hi and welcome to the site, okay! You should be proud to be reaching out and sharing this sort of thing. I agree with your point about having that shell of being indomitable (so to speak) but really desiring it at the same time. I'm sorry for your terrible experiences, but it sounds like you're coming to terms with who and what he really is, and what you're not interested in having. Enjoy your time here!

davina_
09-12-2011, 04:38 PM
Great thread, glad to see people looking at it too.

badboyy
10-21-2011, 08:45 AM
Great Post! Hope it helps those who might need it.

Misschief
10-22-2011, 12:58 AM
To a proverbial "t", red flags for vanilla relationships, too.. minus all depravity, of course..

iucundavi
10-29-2011, 08:38 PM
Thank you! I'm new to the life, and starting to explore being a dom....so far, many of the subs I've talked to have encountered "doms" displaying several of the traits red flagged, so I think it's good to have this up and distribute the info as widely as possible. As Abraham Lincoln said, whatever you are, be good at it.

vanilla90
12-07-2011, 06:51 PM
most of the above just seem to be red flags for a general bad partner (except for the obvious d/s mentions)

sub_sequent
03-25-2012, 09:17 PM
I come back to this thread often when speaking to newer members of the Library. I read this again last night and thought it needed to be mentioned again...
So.....read it use your common sense and be safe.....

~CreamySub~
03-26-2012, 05:34 AM
In my everyday life there were many of the traits that would have had me avoiding a person in general, But when i was new to the lifestyle it seemed the common sense of the facts or rather traits were something I ignored , I dont mknow why but I did and it did land me with a person as such .

Thank you Stone for posting it , is a reminder of how a character is a character trait weather in bdsm or vanilla .I surly would have moved slowly if I would have read something as such early on in entering this / our lifestyle and been much more level headed.

And yes subs as well can have the issues , I myself fall under only one but Im working on it , the falling to fast :) just a lover here ..

Stone
04-01-2012, 10:48 PM
Yes these can apply to any and all roles male female and so on.

Hamishlacastle
04-03-2012, 06:32 PM
Denusari hit it well in her comment. COMMON SENSE is the most important thing. The BDSM community has unique dynamics but they still function under common sense. If you are not sure then slow it down. If the person continues certain red flag behaviours then it is time to cut them loose.

Stone
04-03-2012, 10:06 PM
One thing I have found is COMMON SENSE is NOT that COMMON......

denuseri
04-05-2012, 03:11 PM
I have to agree with Stone on that one for sure. I even experienced a total lack of it a few times myself...especially when riding that brand spanky new relationship high.

Kerri
11-08-2013, 09:03 PM
I really appreciate this advise, comments and opinions since I am new to the lifestyle. :confused-new:

mrmac
11-11-2013, 01:59 PM
Kerri , I am also new to this web site , i HAVE NOT FIGURED OUT HOW TO GET AROUND ,

DON

Djbillson
11-12-2013, 03:49 AM
Thanks for the post, always good to know what to look for not only in other but yourself. I worry about myself that I'll turn to aggressive as a Dom, or to blind and willing as a Sub. But I have lots of time to find out if I'm a switch or a sub.

deigja
03-05-2014, 01:46 AM
bump, because it´s just so important!

Deigja

Solis
03-11-2014, 01:06 PM
For convenience sake, here's the list from the first post in the thread. The general sense I got from the succeeding three pages of discussion was something like, "yes, almost all of us are guilty of waving one or two or a few of these red flags ourselves. The impulse to back quickly away should be triggered if you read one and another and of "yeah, that's him. That one, too. Oh God, that one."

Solis

Red Flags:

•Tries to separate you from your friends, family or BDSM community.

•Avoids talking about personal details. Gets mad when you ask or quickly ends the conversation or answers questions with questions.

•Has no BDSM references or friends you can talk to. Gets angry when you ask for references or ask around about them.

•Is inconsistent with details about themselves. Does not give you their home and work phone number at the appropriate time.

•Only communicates with you at strange hours and gets mad if you try to contact them at other times.

•Criticizes the BDSM community and refuses to participate, especially if they never were part of it.

•Consistently breaks promises. Always finds excuses for not meeting.

•Always puts blame on others for things going wrong. Does not take personal responsibility.

•Has bad relationships with most or all of their family members.

•Pressures you into doing things you do not want to do. Does not respect your limits, negotiations or contracts.

•Pushes you into a D/s relationship too fast.

•Falls in love with you way too fast and swears undying love before even meeting you.

•Hides behind their D/s authority and says that their authority should not be questioned.

•Tries to make you feel guilty for not being good enough. Says that you are not a “True” sub.

•Loses control of their emotions in arguments and regresses to yelling, name-calling and blame.

•Puts you down in front of other people.

•Turns instantly on their friends, going from best friend to arch enemy at the drop of a hat.

•Treats you lovingly and respectfully one day and then harshly and accusingly the next.

•Goes to great lengths to get revenge on people.

•Lies or withholds information.

•Cheats on you or is overly jealous.

•Will not discuss what your possible future relationship could be like. Tries to keep you in the dark about what might happen next in the relationship.

•Does not respect your feelings, rights, or opinions. Belittles your ideas. Blames you for your hurt feelings.

•Abuses alcohol or other drugs.

•Is constantly asking for large amounts of money from you or others.

•Threatens suicide or other forms of self-harm.

•Deliberately saying or doing things that result in getting themselves seriously hurt.

•Monitors your communications (emails, phone calls, chats) with others.

•Only interacts with you in a kinky or sexual manner as if role-playing. Will not have normal everyday vanilla conversations.

•Never shows you their human side. Is emotionless. Hides their vulnerability behind their D/s role.

•Has multiple online identities for interacting with the same communities.

•Disappears from communication for days or weeks at a time without explanation.

•Is rude to public servants such as waitresses, cashiers and janitors.

•Never says thank you, excuse me or I am sorry to anyone.

This is NOT copyrighted material. Please copy and distribute freely.

eager_master
03-30-2014, 11:26 PM
I would also say does not stop when the limits that are set are passed.

slaveboy88
11-12-2015, 10:55 AM
<<< Has no idea why people would be offended by this thread or the promotion of safety. It doen't make sence to get bent over people wishing to look out for other people, unless the redflag shoe fits for some reason.

I see way too many people come online who appear to leave their common sence at the log in screen. I was unfortunate enough to do that very thing myself once and almost paid the ultimate price. It pains me to think how many of my sisters make the same mistakes.

One of the things I like about this site over others is that it doesn't promote that kind of thinking (or lack there of) and I would like to thank them as well as the OP and others (I know you know who you are) for taking the time to remind people to keep a hold of that common sence and put safety first over kink.

Hey i would like to talk to u this ismy email dragan.dagy@gmail.com