Should a Master be a slave?

[mastercoyote]

Hi all,

I had a discussion with my slave recently, where she said that knowing I have had experience as a sub has helped her to have confidance in me, especially as this is her first D/s experience.

It's no coincidence that I've only subbed under those who have also had sub experience. I'm just more comfortable listening to the voice of experience.

I'm interested in hearing the opinions of others who have, or who's partner has, been in both or only one or the other D/s role. Which makes you feel more or less confident in yourself and/or your partner, or is it not an issue?

I'm asking because I'm thinking about finding a mentor to help me be a better Dom, so I want to know if my opinion is preference or prejudice.

Thanks!

[Curtis]

There's currently a thread ("I want to be trained" by eraser) near the top of the Knowledge Base section that should give you a good idea of what some of us think of that idea.

In brief, my vote was for Dom/mes to be trained by subs and subs to be trained by Dom/mes. I think your idea (or being trained by a switch, which would be similar) is a very good one, for the reasons given by two or three people in the previously mentioned thread.

[Chuckdom19]

Personally, I think a Dom who subbed some time before would be better able to deal with the bad things that come up. Knowledge of "when he did this, I did that" would assist in understanding how the sub might respond, how to prevent negative reactions, and how to work towards appropriate ones.

Being able to get into their sub's head is essential in a good D/s relationship. It seems to me that those who just demand a knee-jerk reaction, rather than a constructive response are the relationships which don't last.

As with any other good interpersonal relationship, it must be worked at constantly to be effective.

[AndrewBlack]

I have little experience but have to say that being on the submissive end was very useful, empathic and enjoyable. Without doubt it has improved what I do as a Dominant and has made me curious about switching.

[slavelucy]

Hmmm....*looks deep in thought*

What a fascinating concept.

Actually, even though i don't (in accordance with my posts on the thread to which Curtis referred) think that a dominant should step out of a relationship to be 'trained' as a sub (because cold training is not a relationship...and so on and so forth!), i certainly don't think having some experience of the practicality of subbing is a bad thing.

i use the word practicality for a reason, because whereas i think that it would perhaps increase empathy and understanding via pratical experience, i don't think a dominant could ever 'think' like a sub or ever truely experience the same feelings that being dominated evokes...so it's kinda...logically limited experience.

So, yeah, i can well understand mastercoyote's sub saying it has a positive effect on her confidence in him, i don't think it's essential, but i certainly don't think it could do any harm.

sl

[Dngnkeeper]

Personally, I think a Dom who subbed some time before would be better able to deal with the bad things that come up. Knowledge of "when he did this, I did that" would assist in understanding how the sub might respond, how to prevent negative reactions, and how to work towards appropriate ones.

Being able to get into their sub's head is essential in a good D/s relationship. It seems to me that those who just demand a knee-jerk reaction, rather than a constructive response are the relationships which don't last.

As with any other good interpersonal relationship, it must be worked at constantly to be effective.

You and I are on the same page on this one. GMTA :) Probably the main reason is that its my experience. And it works really well for me .

For me, my days on the bottom were some of the best preparation for topping I could have. As one who attends many public and private events and teaches a class or two one of the questions that invariably comes up from those without submissive experience is "how did you read (understand) the reaction of the sub". The short answer is I've been there. While I can talk about physical signs and their meanings I haven't found a way to really teach this. This understanding is what allows me to to be able to work heavy percussive scenes and edge play. It also helps keep the scene between the ditches and out of trouble.

As you point out "Being able to get into their sub's head is essential in a good D/s relationship. " For this is the essence. My bottoming experience also comes in useful with after care, as, generally, I have some appreciation for what the sub is feeling. And it helps in relationships where the conflict between goals, limits, consequences and SSC arise. It helps to steer the the general direction of the BDSM aspects of the relationship away from problem areas and dead ends and to the more fruitful ones.

I have to agree it can add alot to the subs trust when they know that you have gone there yourself.


Snip... It's no coincidence that I've only subbed under those who have also had sub experience. I'm just more comfortable listening to the voice of experience Snip...

I'm thinking about finding a mentor to help me be a better Dom Snip...

Its not for me either. :) Mentors are a great idea. I hope you can persue it.

Does that mean that Doms/Dommes without the experience of submission are bad or unsafe. NO. I have met some very good, proficient, loving and safe ones in my travels. One thing these have in common is that, somewhere, somehow, they have learned some of this without heaving the experience of submission. I feel, though, that they have to work much harder to learn these things.

[mastercoyote]

Does that mean that Doms/Dommes without the experience of submission are bad or unsafe. NO.

That's an excellent, valid point, and I certainly wasn't trying to infer otherwise. I just honestly have a difficult time trying to wrap my mind around the concept of an exclusive sub OR Dom/me, just as other people have problems understanding the BDSM community in general.

That's why I started this thread: to see the issue from other members' points of view. So far, it's been extremely informative. I hope to hear more on this.

Cheers!

[Wontworry]

I agree that it would help any Dom to understand a sub's reactions much better if he had been dominated at some point. But as I see it, being a Dom is in my blood and something that I can't change (and dont want to !). You may as well say that I would understand a female pov better if I had been a female at some point. Its true but kinda irrelevant. Just my opinion. :D

[Dngnkeeper]

If you had asked me this question 15 years ago I would have wondered why you asked. I don't think I had heard of such a thing, at least that I can remember now. Although there must have been some.

I don't see the lack of submissive or bottoming experience as a detrament but knowledge that will have to be learned in a nontratioional fashion.

This is also a discussion that comes up from time to time as part of "Old Guard" vs "New Leather". It's part of the eveolution in the techniques and perseptions of the community caused by the internet and its entrance in mainstream life.

[Curtis]

Ooh! Really? My experieces with reading B&D or D&S literature from the mid 70s to the mid 80s was that most of the Tops had previously been bottoms. (This was emphatically NOT true of the S&M stories, however.) I realize we're talking apples and oranges here (what I read and what you experienced), but that was my introduction to 'the lifestyle', so that's what my images of it are predicated on. :dunno:

[mastercoyote]

I agree that it would help any Dom to understand a sub's reactions much better if he had been dominated at some point. But as I see it, being a Dom is in my blood and something that I can't change (and dont want to !). You may as well say that I would understand a female pov better if I had been a female at some point. Its true but kinda irrelevant. Just my opinion. :D
I hear ya. The difference for me, I guess, is the role I'm playing isn't based on my needs so much as my lover's, especially when I'm in love. Right now, my slave needs me to be a completely Dominant MALE, so that's all I want to be, too.

Which, when you think about it, might be seen as a submissive trait. Hmm... the human brain is a weird little thing, ain't it?


This is also a discussion that comes up from time to time...

Ooh! Really?...
I'd surely like to hear more of both your thoughts on this. Care to elaborate?

[Dngnkeeper]

mastercoyote the Old Guard vs New Leather is a popular theme for discussion groups at events, not to mention private gatherings and I think a book. The area of Tops with experience on the bottom is one of the main areas of disagreement in the community.

As Curtis reminds the literature of the time bears this out. And if you look further back through 1945 I think you will find it true as well. One of the main reasons for the lack of self taught Tops is the lack of materials. Remember we didn't have the internet, and books published on the subject. The magazines we did have were for the most part fantasies on paper, just like the library here. Or a bunch of pretty pictures. A few would have columns that represented real life issues and themes but even one magazine taken as a whole over the years of publication didn't match the volume of one book. There were films too, those lovely 8mm B&W things without sound. Like todays many were great to look at but not much to learn from. Lets face it insex today is a great place to watch our sadistic fantasies played out but probably not the best place to learn how to be a Top. So there wasen't much to learn from.

Then too equipment suppliers were very limited and if you didn't know someone to tell you where to get the stuff you had to make it or go without. So the opportunity to go it alone was very limited.

Then you get into the the societal perceptions of the lifestyle. Prior to the mid 90's the public knowledge of your involvement in the BDSM lifestyle was an often invitation to harassment, discrimination, abuse and in rare cases death. This becomes more of a reality the further back you go. If you happened to be gay or lesbian you compounded this many times over. So this meant that if you wanted to get involved in BDSM you probably had to seek out someone or a group. The need for secrecy was paramount.

Your next problem because of this is meeting someone. If you are a new untrained Top and you place an add in a magazine and convinced a bottom or two to show up and then present as Top without experience you will soon find the magazine won't take your adds. If you try to contact a Top you will find in the first letter or two they they won't deal with you for several reasons. The first is that because they have themselves had the experience of bottoming as a training ground they will require it. It is here you learn the customs, respect, rituals and philosophy. It is also here you will be segregated form any group that might be present instill your comitment, mental stability, work and financial history and other background can be verified. This is to protect The Top and later the group from abuse. See above. It is also here, after your initiation and training on the bottom, you will be introduced to the skills and concepts of the Top. This is done in as part of the work in the Dungeon by participating in a managed way in the work there. Yes I use the work because that was the most common term of my time. While play generally involved more sex then BDSM. So bottom line it is much like college, you probably aren't going to get into a Masters program if you don't have a Bachelors degree much less High School.

So that is my take on why Tops or Doms etc. with out experience of the bottom is new. Like I said before it in and of itself isn't bad, but it is new, different and tested on a large scale only in the short run. As with most things it depends on the people involved.

This is where we get to the New Leather. It brings us SSC and RAK. A quick phrase to help us understand and justify things that were traditionally learned through experience and the sharing of others experiences and ideas. Do they make sense, yes, are they a good idea, you bet. But all to often these phrases are all that gets learned. To often they are just words, "Oh your SSC, I'm SSC lets play" without knowing the meaning of the phrase. They may hear or read the rules on meeting new people but seldom heed or follow them due to the lack of understanding of the consequences. These are the types of things you can only understand form the process of mentoring. All to often I get confronted by someone who was hurt by trying something they saw or read on the internet.

On the good side New Leather has opened the BDSM world to people who ten years ago would have never heard the term. It has brought that "something" to those who have been searching for it. And it so some extent has brought together the disparate communities of BDSM to share ideas and the love of the lifestyle.

So each has its pluses and minuses, hopefully in the next few years the two will merge more fully and we will get more pluses and fewer minuses.

So there you go a short thought on a discussion that can and does keep going and going..... :p

Oh ya mastercoyote that mentor you mentioned. For my money its the best thing a Dom or sub can do to learn and grow in the lifestyle.

Oh and this may be for you one of those things you may never understand, like women, but just apperciate. ;)

Time to put the soapbox back in the warehouse and clear the smoke...... :rolleyes:

[Finding_Fantasy]

I think that a Dominant should be trained as a submissive. Not because he or she has submissive side, but because it allows the dominant to see and understand things from the perspective of a submissive, what it takes to be a submissive.

I also think that submissives should also try their hand a domination to better understand the dominants role and 'duties'.

[Eraser]

"MAYOR: What a splendid idea, This Christmas sounds fun, I fully endorse it
Let's try it at once" Tim Burtons Nightmare before Christmas.

One of my favorite movies and also a key point I think in this discussion.
This is a point of a personal pet peeve when someone picks up a tool or cap's there nick and calls themselves Master. Master of what? to be a Master you must be an apprentice first.

First off does a Dom NEED to sub to be a better top? No I have worked with some rather talent Dom's in the past that never subbed but had been in the lifestyle decades and knew alot. I've also worked with Dom's that had bottomed and generally speaking those that had were more knowledgeable.

The Old Guard method is to be bottom, personal I feel a Dom at LEAST should be Mentored. Now for those thinking "But I am a born Dominant, I'm not a sub!" I want to clarify something. First Just like with the degree of the lifestyle (see my Vegan thread) Top, Dom, Master or bottom, sub, slave denote a degree of depth to the lifestyle. So I defiantly wouldn't say go out and be a slave. Being a sub/slave and bottoming to me are 2 VERY different things (well 3 technically). Being a bottoming is taking on the role for a period of time, not "Being a sub". Most Dom's are not subs or slaves (accept for the switches out their) they do not feel the gratification from the role of a sub and most likely not have a masochistic streak etc. But that is not really needed heavily at all to be a bottom for a period of time. I would however DEFIANTLY say, go bottom to someone for a few sessions at minimum. I wouldn't recommend doing it with your sub/slave present.

Perfect example, the legs have no (the type is slipping my brain) particular type of artiers that actually constrict to push or pull blood, the action of blood moving from the knee down is done by the contraction and release of the calf muscles. Yes I do know there are 4 artery's from the knee down but there type isn't the right kind to move the blood. So when a person kneels for extended periods of time your legs fall asleep, but have you ever noticed they never fall asleep above the knee? (same thing with your arm above the elbow) So when kneeling for an extended period of time, its very help to flex and unflexx the calf muscles to push fresh blood down into the feet. You average Dom doesn't know this because they have never spent any significant time on there knee's.

Also many tools have a vary of sensation by the technique used, when your going for an effect of a tool, you can only learn so much just giving the blow, you can learn more by doing it. Same with rope bondage I learned that both being tied and by tieing. There is just SO much you can learn on the "other side" about how both to do what you do better as a Dom as well as better understand the experience of your sub. Doing this does NOT in my not so humble opinion (as someone pointed out to me) make you a sub/switch etc
You don't have a sub mentality or the heart, your doing this for the experience and knowledge that you can't get any other way.

If you do choose to bottom, I would also suggest bottoming to some that is a TOP for both genders or for the gender you will also be Doming. That was a mouth full. What I am saying is don't go to a Mistress that only tops men to understand better about to learn about being a bottom or how to top women. Its not going to be as beneficial as it could be.

So, Yes go bottom to someone or at least work with an experienced Mentor it will make you a better Dom, you can't learn everything just by reading and doing, the "cold" training, will do you good in technique, understanding, and safety.

edit:
side note here, read the book The Trainer (The Marketplace Series, 3) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964596067/qid=1103094748/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-5720399-2763057?v=glance&s=books) The series is my personal favorite piece of BDSM fiction, and the technique's used through the book's specifically this one are delightful and very educational

[mastercoyote]

Thanks Dngnkeeper, very informative. I'm looking at your timeline of when BDSM slowly emerged from the "underground", and not coincidentally it corresponds roughly to my un/involvement in the scene.

I spent a total of four years in Asia, the first 2 1/2 in Okinawa, where I was involved with an experienced, older female player. As most people know, Eastern attitudes towards sex are significantly more pragmatic than the West's.

Reading your account reminds me why I didn't get involved in the BDSM community upon my return to the US in 1987. Lol, having just been honorably discharged from the USAF, the last thing I was in the mood for was more rules and regs.

It wasn't until the mid '90's that I got back into it. My girlfriend at the time was very involved in the local scene, and I found it to be a much more relaxed atmosphere than before.

*takes Dngnkeeper's soapbox for a spin*

I try hard not to judge, in the hope that others will follow suit, but I have to say that overall I'm still a bit turned off by some people's need to to regiment and categorize their sexual activities. (No offense, Erasor.) This is my main dilemma about getting involved in the local scene and mentoring with another Master. I'd appreciate some training on technique (esp. safety), but the last thing I need in my life is someone telling me what I should or shouldn't enjoy doing (or having done to me). If I wanted that, I'd go to church.

So it goes. Sorry for the rant. :)

[Eraser]

I try hard not to judge, in the hope that others will follow suit, but I have to say that overall I'm still a bit turned off by some people's need to to regiment and categorize their sexual activities. (No offense, Erasor.) This is my main dilemma about getting involved in the local scene and mentoring with another Master. I'd appreciate some training on technique (esp. safety), but the last thing I need in my life is someone telling me what I should or shouldn't enjoy doing (or having done to me). If I wanted that, I'd go to church.


I never said what you should or shouldn't enjoy doing. But calling ones self a slave or being a slave isn't about an activity. A slave is a deep level of submission and sacrifice and giving up of control. calling a bottom a slave or a slave a bottom is like calling a Geo metro a sports car. :dunno:

[mastercoyote]

I never said what you should or shouldn't enjoy doing. But calling ones self a slave or being a slave isn't about an activity. A slave is a deep level of submission and sacrifice and giving up of control. calling a bottom a slave or a slave a bottom is like calling a Geo metro a sports car. :dunno:
Yeah, I know you didn't, Eraser. Unfortunately, you and I posted at roughly the same time, which is why I went back and added the "no offense". I was referring to the blowhards that one often meets at the munches, etc. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

However, I'm glad you responded, because I've been wanting your opinion on something since reading your "Vegan" thread. I refer to myself as "Master" and my mate as "slave" because that's what we are to one another. It has very little to do with outside criteria. One day she asked to be my slave, I made sure she was serious and aware of the implications, then accepted her request. It's been a constant learning experience for the both of us since.

The only real interest I have in studying BDSM (or anything else, for that matter) is to learn for my own benefit and that of my slave's. That said, do you think it's realistic for me to seek a mentor from within my local BDSM community?

I'd appreciate hearing from other experienced players, as well.

Cheers!

[Eraser]

I really couldn't say, I don't know the members of your local community. Some community's have been locked in to the criteria structure's of single individual's which I disagree with. I may be experienced in my community, but I am far from the best and even if I am rather opinionated and stand by my opinions strongly, I am and can be very wrong about things at times or my opinion may not fit at all with the personality's of those hearing my words.

I think there is a possibility you could find someone in your community though, or find a yahoo group or the like that covers your area and be upfront about what you are asking for. Rather then saying a Master that has been a slave, I would use the phrase an Dom thats been trained Old Guard or one that has been mentored Old Guard method.

I think this is gonna be the perfect week to post my Old Guard thread :)

[mastercoyote]

I really couldn't say, I don't know the members of your local community. Some community's have been locked in to the criteria structure's of single individual's which I disagree with. I may be experienced in my community, but I am far from the best and even if I am rather opinionated and stand by my opinions strongly, I am and can be very wrong about things at times or my opinion may not fit at all with the personality's of those hearing my words.

I think there is a possibility you could find someone in your community though, or find a yahoo group or the like that covers your area and be upfront about what you are asking for. Rather then saying a Master that has been a slave, I would use the phrase an Dom thats been trained Old Guard or one that has been mentored Old Guard method.
Thanks, Eraser, good advice. I just located a Yahoo! BDSM group for my area :), so maybe I'll test the waters after the holidays.


I think this is gonna be the perfect week to post my Old Guard thread :)
Cool, looking forward to it!

[Maliia]

Hi.

I hope you don't mind, I thought I would share my experience with this as well since I like to play for real a lot.

Usually I'm submissive and I really enjoy it. I've had some dominants (usually the men) who didn't have any idea what they were doing and used bdsm as an excuse for getting sex. Others had been involved in things for a while and truly believed they were a good dominant, but they really had no understanding of what I was feeling because they had never submitted a day in their lives. They may have had a general idea of what kind of a physical response doing certain things might trigger, but they didn't know the subtle details or the mental part which is really where things can take off.

I found that I always had by far the most fulfilling and rewarding experiences with dominants who had spent some time experiencing the other side. Usually they had a better understanding of how long they could do a thing before it would get to be too much or boring or whatever, and they had lots of creativity and tricks up their sleeves because they didn't just watch another dominant doing something, they experienced it first hand and felt it and knew first hand whether it was a turn on to the submissive or just a turn on to the people watching and not so much for the slave.

As for me, I do get a dominant urge in me every once in a while (you should see the photos of me controlling some of my girlfriends). Although I have dominated a few men, I usually like to top women, both because being a woman I think I have a better understanding of what a woman feels and how a woman thinks but also submissive men just don't do it for me, I see them as being too weak and that isn't a turn on for me. Anyway, the girls (and sometimes boys) I have taken control of have always said that it was one of the best experiences and was so creative and things were happening that they never saw coming or never would have expected. I didn't try to do that on purpose you know, I just did what I thought I would enjoy and changed it a little based on what they said would make them craziest.

I guess if you're only the top and never the bottom, you could never do what you found to be the most pleasing because you never had that experience.

I think experience is a lot different from fantasy anyway so you can't say you have experience just because you read a lot of books or saw a lot of porn websites or have an active fantasy life. There are things I would never do in real play or allow to be done to me for real that turn me on like you wouldn't believe in fantasy, especially in many of the stories I read here and I try to write as well. The key is to know where the line is between fantasy and reality and while there are some areas of the line that are fixed like legal and ethical areas, there are other places that can move a little based on the individual. Having real experience on both sides of the equation, submissive and dominant, gives a person the ability to see things more clearly. Does that make any sense or am I babbling now?

So sorry for saying so much and so long. Hey I am a writer (kinda) after all, I'm supposed to do this. So that's my thought. No a good dominant doesn't necessarily have to have submissive experience and yes there are some good dominants out there who learned without it, but they are few and far between and by far the vast majority of dominants who in my own opinion are good have probably felt the other side at some point and can relate more directly to the experience they are providing and controlling.