Osama Dead!!! [Archive]

thir

05-03-2011, 06:53 AM

I myself do not feel too good about this..for several reasons. One is that his death and mystical' burial at sea' may well make him a martyr much more dangerous than he was these last days, that questions will arise whether he is really dead, that questions will arise why he could not be brought to justice instead, to see him in the dock as criminal or normal (physical) stature rather than an icon, gone in blood and glory.

Robert Fisk, British journalist for the Independant who met with OBL 3 days had these comments in his article:

"A middle-aged nonentity, a political failure outstripped by history – by the millions of Arabs demanding freedom and democracy in the Middle East – died in Pakistan yesterday. And then the world went mad. "

"But the mass revolutions in the Arab world over the past four months mean that al-Qa'ida was already politically dead. Bin Laden told the world – indeed, he told me personally – that he wanted to destroy the pro-Western regimes in the Arab world, the dictatorships of the Mubaraks and the Ben Alis. He wanted to create a new Islamic Caliphate. But these past few months, millions of Arab Muslims rose up and were prepared for their own martyrdom – not for Islam but for freedom and liberty and democracy. Bin Laden didn't get rid of the tyrants. The people did. And they didn't want a caliph."

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-was-he-betrayed-of-course-pakistan-knew-bin-ladens-hiding-place-all-along-2278028.html

Another journalist, Geoffrey Robertson thinks that in spite of the problems it woud have caused, it was a shame he not brought to trial:

"This would have been the best way of de-mystifying this man, debunking his cause and de-brainwashing his followers. In the dock he would have been reduced in stature – never more remembered as the tall, soulful figure on the mountain, but as a hateful and hate-filled old man, screaming from the dock or lying from the witness box."

"Killing instead of capturing Osama Bin Laden was a missed opportunity to prove to the world that this charismatic leader was in fact a vicious criminal, who deserved to die of old age in prison, and not as a martyr to his inhuman cause."

Then of course there is the ever present question and danger og becoming that which you fight:

"America’s belief in capital punishment is reflected in its rejoicing at the manner of Bin Laden’s demise. .... And now Barak Obama has most likely secured his re-election approving the execution of Bin Laden. This may be welcome, given the alternatives. But it is a sad reflection on the continuing attraction of summary justice.

It was not always thus. When the time came to consider the fate of men much more steeped in wickedness than Bin Laden – the Nazi leadership – the British government wanted them hanged within six hours of capture. President Truman demurred, citing the conclusion of Justice Robert Jackson that summary execution “would not sit easily on the American conscience or be remembered by our children with pride?the only course is to determine the innocence or guilt of the accused after a hearing as dispassionate as the times will permit and upon a record that will leave our reasons and motives clear”. He insisted upon judgment at Nuremberg, which has confounded Holocaust-deniers ever since."

There is much to think abouthere.

thir

05-03-2011, 06:59 AM

Unfortunately I think that alltough his death is going serve as a good moral boost for our troops, I think its going to do nothing for getting our people home where they belong.

Maybe it will?? The question has already been raised, that since the war in Afganistan was to get OBL, can it now be stopped? After all there has already been talk about down sizing the war - in some countries, anyway.

thir

05-03-2011, 07:05 AM

I'm glad he's dead, but I don't think it justifies the celebrations I've heard about. Just another terrorist/mass murderer put down.

Me neither.
I think the advantages of his death are not that great, in that it will not stop Al Qaida. The shouting represents a propaganda scoop more than anything else, and is not without its back draws.

I expect there will be attempts at reprisals by Al Qaida, which will no doubt result in even more innocent deaths. I suspect that his capture would have been worse, though. The terrorists would likely have taken hundreds, even thousands, of hostages in an attempt to free him. And they would not have hesitated to kill those hostages when the government refused to release him.

I belive that if that was possible, they would already have done this.

And dumping his body at sea is brilliant. No relics to enshrine, no grave to turn into a mosque. His body will be forever lost and as food for the fishes will finally serve some useful purpose.

I fear that it will make him immortal, in a manner of speaking, since there is now no actual evidence of his death.

thir

05-03-2011, 07:08 AM

I don't think MLK Jr. got it quite right, though. Understanding can drive out hate.

This is true.

I can hate what he has done, and I can hate even more what he has made us do.

Noone was 'made' to do anything. We are all responsible for our own actions, noone else.

What we need to do is to understand why bin Laden hated us, and we'll be one step closer to preventing others from hating us as well.

Well said indeed!

Thorne

05-03-2011, 07:21 AM

Noone was 'made' to do anything. We are all responsible for our own actions, noone else.
He made 'us', as a nation, fear him. He made 'us', as a nation, hate him. And ultimately, he made 'us', as a nation, murder him. Which makes me, as a person, sad.

Well said indeed!
Thank you! I guess every once in a while I get something right? :)

denuseri

05-04-2011, 07:10 AM

So now the debate begins...do we want to see pictures of him or not?

Thorne

05-04-2011, 07:20 AM

In this day and age? Pictures don't mean squat. Any fool with a computer and a graphics program can make any picture say anything he likes. I'd be more interested in the DNA evidence, but even that could be faked. No, the biggest proof that he is dead is that he hasn't turned up to deny it. Yet.

denuseri

05-04-2011, 08:31 AM

I found this interesting Video and report printed bellow:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20110503/bs_yblog_upshot/bin-laden-news-finds-pundits-forsaking-usual-comfort-zones

It's hardly a revelation to note that the cable and talk-radio commentariat is divided on many leading issues of the day. But in the wake of the military raid claiming the life of Osama bin Laden, the range of pundit opinion has exhibited some striking crossover maneuvers, with traditionally caustic conservative critics of President Obama congratulating the daring and resolve of the successful mission. There have also been some notable misreadings of sardonic intent--plus some simple confusion about how to process the dramatic news.
Take the remarks of "Daily Show" host Jon Stewart. In the clip featured above, the news satirist spent the first 10 minutes of his Monday's broadcast skewering Osama bin Laden, who was killed a day earlier by U.S. special forces in Pakistan, before offering some more somber reflections.
"I am way too close to this whole episode to be rational about this in any way, shape or form," he said. "Last night was a good night, for me, and not just for New York or D.C. or America, but for human people. The face of the Arab world in America's eyes for too long has been bin Laden, and now it is not. Now the face is only the young people in Egypt and Tunisia and all the Middle Eastern countries around the world where freedom rises up. Al Qaeda's opportunity is gone."
Meanwhile, the conservative talk-radio baron Rush Limbaugh suffered something of a tonal misfire, as some listeners took his comments on the bin Laden raid--which seem unmistakably derisive in print--as an unprecedented show of heartfelt gratitude to President Obama.
"President Obama single-handedly came up with the technique in order to pull this off," Limbaugh said on Monday. "You see, the military wanted to go in there and bomb as they always do. They wanted to drop missiles and drop bombs and a number of totally destructive techniques here. But President Obama, perhaps the only qualified member in the room to deal with this, insisted on the Special Forces. No one else thought of that. President Obama. Not a single intelligence adviser, not a single national security adviser, not a single military adviser came up with the idea of using SEAL Team 6 or any Special Forces."
Some members of the media didn't pick up on the joke, either. Jon Bershad of Mediaite, for instance, marveled at Limbaugh's remarks (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/yblog_upshot/bs_yblog_upshot/storytext/bin-laden-news-finds-pundits-forsaking-usual-comfort-zones/41321986/SIG=13j68tq43/*http://www.mediaite.com/online/rush-limbaugh-we-need-to-open-the-program-today-by-congratulating-president-obama/). "Limbaugh opened his show today with huge praise for his President, his military, and his country," Bershad noted. "That's right, folks. America can still get along." After some correspondents noted that Limbaugh was speaking with tongue firmly in cheek, Bershad added an update, arguing that "in the world of talk radio, everything's relative" and that the show's opening segment was "about as nice as Limbaugh's ever going to get on Obama."
Such confusion is understandable--especially since so many of Obama's dogged pursuers were offering genuine thanks and praise to one of the most frequently lambasted figures on their broadcasts.
"I want to personally congratulate President Obama and the men and women of the Armed Forces for a job well done," said Donald Trump, who just a week earlier was on his crusade to disprove Obama's American citizenship, in a statement to ABC News (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/yblog_upshot/bs_yblog_upshot/storytext/bin-laden-news-finds-pundits-forsaking-usual-comfort-zones/41321986/SIG=14kjld55k/*http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/05/donald-trump-congratulates-obama-on-osama-bin-laden-killing-asks-for-end-to-party-politics-debate-fo.html). "We should spend the next several days not debating party politics, but in remembrance of those who lost their lives on 9/11 and those currently fighting for our freedom. God Bless America!"
Fox News host Glenn Beck also had some kind words. "First of all, congratulations to President Obama. He got him," the conservative talk show host said (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/yblog_upshot/bs_yblog_upshot/storytext/bin-laden-news-finds-pundits-forsaking-usual-comfort-zones/41321986/SIG=12e0i9hdn/*http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/05/02/beck-reacts-to-news-of-bin-ladens-death/) in response to the news of bin Laden's death. "Thank you, President Obama, thank you." And Beck's colleague on Fox, Sean Hannity, was no less expansive in his praise (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/news/yblog_upshot/bs_yblog_upshot/storytext/bin-laden-news-finds-pundits-forsaking-usual-comfort-zones/41321986/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/hannitysincerelypraisesthewhitehouseitwastherightt hingtodo), saying that Obama's leadership of the mission was "gutsy" and "the right thing to do."
Less surprising, naturally, was the chorus of admiration offered on the left-leaning airwaves of MSNBC Monday night.
"President Bush had 2,686 days to catch Osama bin Laden. President Obama got that job done in 831 days," said Lawrence O'Donnell," at the start of his 8 p.m. show. "Somehow ... bin Laden got the feeling that he could settle down comfortable in a walled fortress is a Pakistan suburb. But someone -- someone -- was still thinking about bin Laden in a lethal way. ... President Obama would make his biggest national security priority getting Osama bin Laden, and so he did."
Meanwhile, Jon Stewart brought his conflicted monologue on the meaning of bin Laden's death to resolution on a patriotic note, suggesting that at least this one sardonic pundit actually does believe we can all just get along.
"For the last 10 years, al-Qaeda had the world's attention. They apparently wanted an ideology competition, and for all of our rights and wrongs, all al-Qaeda seems to have come up with is, 'Uh, we killed some Americans." ... They have nothing," he said. "Can they still do damage? I'm sure. But we're back, baby."

Thorne

05-04-2011, 11:25 AM

I listened to Limbaugh a little on Tuesday. (A little is about all I can stand.) Everything he said pertaining to the killing was either sarcastic or sour grapes. HIS president (Bush, of course) deserved some credit for allowing the torture of prisoners. HIS president created the intelligence assets which finally paid off. HIS president this, and HIS president that. It was almost comical. Except that it was too sad to be comical.

thir

05-04-2011, 02:18 PM

He made 'us', as a nation, fear him. He made 'us', as a nation, hate him. And ultimately, he made 'us', as a nation, murder him. Which makes me, as a person, sad.

He wanted US out of the middle East, and used terrorism to try to attain his goal. Those are his decisions and actions, for which he is responsible.

US responded the way it did, for which US is responsible. No one can blame/give credit to others for their own actions, be they right or wrong.

Thank you! I guess every once in a while I get something right? :)

It happens! ;-))

thir

05-04-2011, 02:21 PM

So now the debate begins...do we want to see pictures of him or not?

No. Pictures would cause more of an upheaval, as last time. I think it unwise. I think the decision to bury at sea is a no-return one.

thir

05-04-2011, 02:24 PM

A new twist to this event that caught me by surprise! American muslims getting threaths and hatemail:

"Are American Muslims Safer or Not in the Wake of Bin Laden's Death?"

http://www.care2.com/causes/politics/blog/threats-at-mosques-in-wake-of-bin-laden-death/

denuseri

05-04-2011, 09:05 PM

Thats odd, over here we keep hearing how its the other way around ...everyone is gearing up for fear of reprisals from the terrorists:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/allies-fear-reprisals-over-bin-laden-death-503479.html

America and its allies were today braced for violent reprisals from al-Qaida after Osama bin Laden was killed in a dramatic raid by US special forces.

The world’s most notorious terrorist, who inspired numerous atrocities from the 9/11 attacks in America to the July 7 bombings in London, was shot dead in a brief firefight outside the Pakistani capital, Islamabad.

His body was swiftly buried at sea, with US officials acknowledging it would have been difficult to find a country prepared to accept the remains of such an infamous figure.

Officials said that his identity was confirmed with “99.9% confidence” by DNA testing after he was killed by a shot to the head.

It marked the end of an international manhunt lasting more than a decade for the elusive figurehead behind a campaign of Islamist violence which has sparked wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and claimed thousands of lives around the world.

While it had long been suspected that he had been hiding in Pakistan, there was surprise that he was finally tracked down to a comfortable mansion complex close to a leading military academy.

The discovery he had been living in the garrison town of Abbottabad, rather than the lawless tribal areas of the North West frontier, prompted fresh suspicions that he was being protected by Pakistan’s intelligence services.

The announcement of his death sparked jubilant celebrations in America, with crowds gathering outside the White House and at Ground Zero where the Twin Towers had stood in New York.

In a late night statement broadcast from the White House, US president Barack Obama said the operation had been carried out by a “small team of Americans” acting with “extraordinary courage and capability”.

“On nights like this one, we can say to those families who have lost loved ones to al-Qaida’s terror: justice has been done,” he said.

“The cause of securing our country is not complete. But tonight, we are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to.”

David Cameron, who was telephoned by Mr Obama in the early hours to be told the news, said it was “a massive step forward” which would be welcomed throughout the UK.

“Of course, nothing will bring back those loved ones that families have lost to terror. But at least they know the man who was responsible for these appalling acts is no more,” he said.

The euphoria that greeted bin Laden’s death was accompanied by warnings that his followers would almost certainly attempt to extract revenge in bloody terrorist reprisals.

“Though bin Laden is dead, al-Qaida is not,” said CIA director Leon Panetta. “The terrorists almost certainly will attempt to avenge him, and we must – and will – remain vigilant and resolute.”

Britain followed the US in placing its embassies, diplomatic missions and military bases around the world on a heightened state of alert.

The UK's Foreign Secretary William Hague said that elements within al-Qaida and its affiliates would want to show that they were still “in business”.

“This is a very serious blow to al-Qaida but, like any organisation that has suffered a serious blow, they will want to show in some way that they are still able to operate,” he said.

“We will still have to be vigilant – even more vigilant – in the coming days about the international terrorist threat.”

Pakistan’s High Commissioner in London, Wajid Shamsul Hasan, insisted that his country’s authorities had not known of bin Laden’s whereabouts prior to the attack.

“Nobody knew that Osama bin Laden was there – no security agency, no Pakistani authorities knew about it. Had we known it we would have done it ourselves.”

However the discovery he had apparently been living in a large, purpose-built complex in a busy urban area raised fresh questions about the role played by the Pakistani ISI intelligence agency – elements of which have long been seen as sympathetic to al Qaida.

Nigel Inkster, a former assistant chief of MI6, said they may have judged it “better to keep Osama bin Laden safe rather than risk the opprobrium that might attach to being in some way responsible for his death or capture”.

US officials said that as well as bin Laden, three other men, including his adult son and two suspected al-Qaida couriers, and a woman who was being used as a human shield died during the raid.

Around two dozen troops from the US Navy’s Seal Team Six counter-terrorism unit, were flown by Blackhawk helicopters into the compound in an operation lasting less than 40 minutes.

The mission, which was formally given the go-ahead by Mr Obama on Friday, marked the culmination of years of patient intelligence work.

Officials said they had known from statements made by detainees that bin Laden had a trusted al-Qaida courier who, they believed, may have been living with him in hiding.

Four years ago, they learned the man’s identity, and then about two years later, they identified the areas in Pakistan where he and his brother operated. Last August, they tracked down their residence to an affluent part of Abbottabad.

Despite being said to be worth $1m, the property had no internet or telephone connections, fuelling suspicions about its true purpose.

By mid-February, the intelligence coming from multiple sources was said to be clear enough for Mr Obama to seek to pursue “an aggressive course of action” to get bin Laden.

Over the next two and a half months, he led five meetings of the National Security Council focusing on whether bin Laden was in the compound and, if he was, how to deal with him.

Following the confirmation of his death, Norman Thompson from Sheffield, whose 33-year-old son Nigel died in the Twin Towers, said: “I’m pleased, definitely. It doesn’t bring our son back – we’ve lost him.

“It would bring justice, definitely, but certainly no closure. It’s an everyday trial for us.”

thir

05-05-2011, 12:51 AM

That article is about what happens in USA, and it caught me by surprise too!

denuseri

05-05-2011, 07:31 AM

I know, I read the one you posted, I am not blind, but it isnt anything I am seeing on TV over here yet. I was just pointing out that there is more fear of muslim reprisals than there is of violence against muslims.

Both articles however lead me to believe that people are still having trouble seperating in their minds the difference between an everyday normal person who practices Islam, and a terreroist though, which is sad.

You hear about as much about violence against muslims over here as you hear about muslims condeming the terrorists.

Which imho only leads to more hate and fear , as if that is what the medias goal is...to promote scandal and fear, to get "rateings"...which I guess shouldnt be all that surprising considering all the majior media here is controled by corperate interests, which means all they really care about is profit.

Violence against muslims is not nearly as wide spread as fear of them by any means from what I can tell.

Personally I think pictures would be part of transparency, its not like the terrorists are going to become any less pissed off at us, I also think he should have brought the body back first for further proof, as his detractors will only use the burial at sea thing to add further fuel to their belicose attacks and partisanship.

Now they are talking about blowing the building up where it all happened (which is quite useless imho), it won't prevent any shrine building anyway, if they want a shrine to a terrorists those who wish for it will build one of their own regardless.

serrated

05-05-2011, 08:08 AM

I hope all his virgins are men. LOL

IAN 2411

05-05-2011, 01:44 PM

US President Barack Obama announced his decision not to release "graphic" images of bin Laden's body for fear of encouraging reprisals. While the pictures may have dispelled doubts that the terrorist mastermind was truly dead, Mr Obama said publishing them would be a "national security risk" and could incite "additional violence," potentially becoming a "propaganda tool".

That is a load of bull. Does the American President think that they are not going to be targeted because he never showed pictures of the dead body? The Special Forces have already incited reprisals for publishing OBL death. How the hell would publishing them become a security risk, the only security risk you could get from showing the pictures of OBL would be if he were still alive. No I think the American Spooks are just to Spooky, and I just don’t believe that he is dead, and the American Secret Service are pulling a fast one.

Obama; put up or shut up.

There are thousands of people throughout the world that have been touched by OBL violence, after losing kin and kind and looking after the broken and distraught survivors in their family. Well they should have the proof that justice has been done on their behalf, not a load of dodgy rhetoric. I would like to point out that the World Trade Centre was only the start, and since then his terrorist org had killed and mutilated innocent people all over the world they have rights above Obama’s personal beliefs.

Barack Obama’s presidency has been a difficult one. Universal healthcare, the budget deficit, high unemployment and fuel costs have resulted in low poll ratings and defeat for the Democrats at last year’s mid-terms, when the Republicans took the House of Representatives.

What better way than to get those poll ratings up than by suddenly killing America’s most wanted man? Writing on a Tea Party website, one conspiracy theorist said: "Don't you think Obama needs something to assure his re-election?"

There you have it.

Be well Ian 2411

Thorne

05-05-2011, 02:29 PM

IAN 2411,

Do you recall the outrage expressed by Muslims throughout the world by the posting of some ridiculous cartoons in Denmark? Publishing those photos would be worse, I think, not to mention that it would be just plain wrong. And just what would showing the photos prove, anyway? They could easily be faked, one way or another. Hell, we have thousands of photos of men walking on the moon and there are still idiots who don't believe it.

No, the only proof we have that OBL is dead is that he has not come out and shown the world that the Great Satan is lying! Don't you think he would jump at the chance to exploit a piece of propaganda like this? He was far too intelligent NOT to.

What better way than to get those poll ratings up than by suddenly killing America’s most wanted man? Writing on a Tea Party website, one conspiracy theorist said: "Don't you think Obama needs something to assure his re-election?"
The election is a year and a half away! If he was only interested in that he would have waited, don't you think? How much more effective would it have been in September or October of 2012?

IAN 2411

05-05-2011, 10:02 PM

IAN 2411,

Do you recall the outrage expressed by Muslims throughout the world by the posting of some ridiculous cartoons in Denmark? Publishing those photos would be worse, I think, not to mention that it would be just plain wrong. And just what would showing the photos prove, anyway? They could easily be faked, one way or another.

As I said Thorn, do you honestly think along with Obama that the USA will not get reprisals? Yes I agree the photos could also be faked, but even faked photos are better than none at all. The Americans had no qualms when it came to showing photos of Sadam’s two sons and some of his close advisers being hung; you have a very soft and controversial president.

No, the only proof we have that OBL is dead is that he has not come out and shown the world that the Great Satan is lying! Don't you think he would jump at the chance to exploit a piece of propaganda like this? He was far too intelligent NOT to.
I don’t disagree for one minute that OBL was not intelligent and wouldn’t exploit the truth if he were alive and free to do so. My point was that if he was not dead but captured there would be a reason for withholding photos. This is all too bloody secret, and to be quite honest the secrecy of the aftermath is well over the top. It was all too fast, dead one minute buried at sea the next, rushed statements, and even now no one seems to tell the same story. It has left an element of doubt.

Be well IAN 2411

IAN 2411

05-05-2011, 10:20 PM

SKY NEWS;

President Barack Obama has visited New York's Ground Zero - as fresh doubts emerged over the official US account of the raid that killed Osama bin Laden.
The American leader will hope to begin to bury the memory of the terror chief by honouring those who died in the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Centre.
He spoke privately with the families of victims of the atrocity and first responders, after laying a wreath at the 9/11 memorial.
But the visit comes as a senior US defence official revealed only one of the five people killed in the raid on bin Laden's compound was armed and fired a shot.
The official presented a very different account to the administration's original portrayal of a chaotic, intense and prolonged firefight.
He said the sole shooter in the al Qaeda leader's Pakistani compound was shot dead in the early minutes of the operation.
Details have become clearer now the Navy Seal commando assault team has been debriefed, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to speak on the record.
He said the raid should be described as a precision, floor-by-floor operation to hunt and find the al Qaeda leader and his protectors.
As the Navy Seals moved into bin Laden's compound, they were fired on by bin Laden's courier, who was in the guesthouse, the official said.
The commandos returned fire, and the courier was killed, along with a woman with him. The official said she was hit in the crossfire.
The Americans were never fired on again as they encountered and killed a man on the first floor and then bin Laden's son on a staircase, before arriving at bin Laden's room.
Officials had said the al Qaeda boss was killed after he appeared to be reaching for a weapon.
But although he was unarmed, it has also emerged there were two guns in bin Laden's room, a Makarov hand gun and an AK47, which commandos believed he was attempting to get to.
US TV network NBC reports the majority of the operation was spent gathering up the computers, hard drives, mobile phones and other items that could offer valuable intelligence on al Qaeda and potential operations worldwide.
A White House spokesman had previously referred to "many other people who were armed in the compound", with others claiming bin Laden had taken part in the shoot-out.
Not another different story, so what did happen? Alive or dead? One man shot dead but who?

denuseri

05-06-2011, 07:03 AM

Al-Qaida on Friday confirmed the killing of Osama bin Laden and warned of retaliation, saying Americans' "happiness will turn to sadness."
The confirmation came in an Internet statement posted on militant websites, signed by "the general leadership" of al-Qaida. The announcement opens the way for the group to name a successor to bin Laden. His deputy Ayman al-Zawahri is now the most prominent figure in the group and is a very likely contender to take his place.
The statement, dated May 3, was the first by the terror network since bin Laden was killed Monday by U.S. commandos in a raid on his hideout in Abbottabad, Pakistan. The statement's authenticity could not be independently confirmed, but it was posted on websites where the group traditionally puts out its messages.
"The blood of the holy warrior sheik, Osama bin Laden, God bless him, is too precious to us and to all Muslims to go in vain," the statement said. "We will remain, God willing, a curse chasing the Americans and their agents, following them outside and inside their countries."
"Soon, God willing, their happiness will turn to sadness," it said, "their blood will be mingled with their tears."
There was no indication how the group will retaliate. Rather than making vehement cries of vengeance, the statement — entitled "You lived as a good man, you died as a martyr" — struck a tone of calmness and continuation. Though it included praise of bin Laden, much of the 11-paragraph statement was dedicated to underlining that al-Qaida would live on, depicting him as just another in a line of "martyrs" from the group.
"It is impossible, impossible. Sheik Osama didn't build an organization to die when he dies," the statement read. "The university of faith, Quran and jihad from which bin Laden graduated will not close its doors," it added.
"The soldiers of Islam will continue in groups and united, plotting and planning without getting bored, tired, with determination, without giving up until striking a blow," the statement.
It said bin Laden was killed "along an established path followed by the best of those who came before him and those who will come after him."
In the statement, al-Qaida also called on Pakistanis to rise up in revolt against its leaders to "cleanse the shame." It also said that an audio message bin Laden recorded a week before his death would be issued soon.
The writers of the statement appeared unaware of the announcement by American officials that bin Laden's body had been buried at sea. The statement warned against mishandling or mistreating bin Laden's body and demanded that be handed over to his family, saying "any harm (to the body) will open more doors of evil, and there will be no one to blame but yourselves."

leo9

05-07-2011, 12:04 PM

He made 'us', as a nation, fear him. He made 'us', as a nation, hate him. And ultimately, he made 'us', as a nation, murder him.

Or in the immortal words of Oliver Hardy, "Now look what you made me do!"

And he believed that the US made him do what he did. Vendettas only stop when people take responsibility for their own actions.

leo9

05-07-2011, 12:37 PM

Considering how often people who don't respect Godwin's Law have compared OBL to Hitler, it's ironic that the Allies were keen to take Hitler alive and put him on trial for war crimes like his officers. They understood that the best way to diminish your enemies is to treat them as criminals, not warriors: whereas we ennobled OBL by treating him as a warrior when he was only a criminal, because Bush needed a war, not a police action. And now we've completed the error by giving him what his admirers will consider a warrior's death, instead of the humiliation of a trial.

It's hard to imagine that with a team like that and the compound in their hands, they couldn't have taken him alive; and it's hard to imagine that someone as aware of political nuances as Obama couldn't see how much more impressive that would be. I can see where you're going with the idea that they have him alive but hidden, Ian, but I can't see that he would be more valuable hidden than publicly exposed. So the conspiracy theory I'd go for is that the object was indeed to fetch him out, but either he was too fast or someone screwed up, so they had to say "We meant to do that!"

Thorne

05-07-2011, 01:02 PM

Or in the immortal words of Oliver Hardy, "Now look what you made me do!"
"The devil made me do it!"

And he believed that the US made him do what he did. Vendettas only stop when people take responsibility for their own actions.
I'm a big proponent of being responsible for my own actions. Fortunately, I wasn't there to pull the trigger, or even to decide that the trigger needed to be pulled. I wasn't consulted by the political or military leaders of this country about how this whole thing should be handled. I am not personally responsible.

Still, as a citizen of the US, I feel just a little dirtier than I did before, as much for the action taken in my name as for the obscene celebrations which followed. It's a stain which no amount of water can cleanse, I'm afraid.

Ozme52

05-07-2011, 03:44 PM

I hope all his virgins are men. LOL

Well, some believe that promise was marred by a translation error... and when he goes to be judged, he's going to be beaten by the likes of George Washington, Jefferson, and 70 other Virginians.

denuseri

05-07-2011, 03:49 PM

IAN 2411

05-07-2011, 05:38 PM

I think the Seals decided for themselves that regardless of what they were told, if they got him in their sights they were gonna kill him, cuase they probabely figured if he was brought back alive justice wouldnt be done.

I have to dissagree with that statement denu, if the seals had been told to capture him if possible then I have to trust that the Special Forces would do just that. Or are do they differ from the Special Forces in the UK that I was in, and especialy if they were being watched by your pres. He was also a man with loads of information, and even now I am sorry but he was worth more alive than dead. Once again Dead or Alive?

Be well IAN 2411

thir

05-08-2011, 10:49 AM

Both articles however lead me to believe that people are still having trouble seperating in their minds the difference between an everyday normal person who practices Islam, and a terreroist though, which is sad.

Oh yes, here too, and in DK too.

[quote]
You hear about as much about violence against muslims over here as you hear about muslims condeming the terrorists.

again, same here..

Which imho only leads to more hate and fear , as if that is what the medias goal is...to promote scandal and fear, to get "rateings"...which I guess shouldnt be all that surprising considering all the majior media here is controled by corperate interests, which means all they really care about is profit.

I am afraid you are only too right here.

Violence against muslims is not nearly as wide spread as fear of them by any means from what I can tell.

But I imagine that the muslims themselves feel it differently.

So stupid being hard on them (every where it happens) you only force a friend, or at least a neutral, into an enemy, and in your midst too.

I have read a couple of articles by muslims explaining their place between a rock and a hard place, between their radical fellow-muslims wanting them to take action, and non-muslims seeing them as terrorists!

MMI

05-08-2011, 02:01 PM

He died in a firefight ...

He cowered behind his wife ...

then

He was unarmed ...

He was captured alive ...

That he died is not really in question: that he was summarily executed is now the issue.

Did the US secretly send a military unit into foreign territory to conduct a legitimate mission, or was it a murder squad on a mission of revenge?

MrEmann

05-08-2011, 02:24 PM

"The devil made me do it!"

I'm a big proponent of being responsible for my own actions. Fortunately, I wasn't there to pull the trigger, or even to decide that the trigger needed to be pulled. I wasn't consulted by the political or military leaders of this country about how this whole thing should be handled. I am not personally responsible.

Still, as a citizen of the US, I feel just a little dirtier than I did before, as much for the action taken in my name as for the obscene celebrations which followed. It's a stain which no amount of water can cleanse, I'm afraid.

Well as an American citizen Myself, I will lose no sleep at all over the death of that guy. I feel clean. I feel happy. I am not going to make excuses for the death of that asshat or the celebrations that followed.

As I said Damn right, I'm a Damn Yankee, and Damn proud of it. I was proud to be an American before 9/11. I am still proud to be an American. Perhaps even more proud today.

Is it over? Hell no. it may never be over. Still I rejoice, and not ashamed at all.

IAN 2411

05-09-2011, 12:02 AM

I

He died in a firefight ...

He cowered behind his wife ...

then

He was unarmed ...

He was captured alive ...

That he died is not really in question: that he was summarily executed is now the issue.

Did the US secretly send a military unit into foreign territory to conduct a legitimate mission, or was it a murder squad on a mission of revenge?
Or was it a snatch squad? That he died in my opinion is in question.

In my opinion this whole affair seems to strange to be true, the American Seals have OBL standing in front of them. He holds all the untold secrets in his head of the biggest terrorist organisation in the world. He knows things that he could never put on a computer and what do they do? Oh yea they shoot him. Give me a break? I believe the American people and the rest of the world are doing exactly what the Am/intelligence expected them to do, celebrate his death.

Just because Al Qaida has asked for his body does not mean they know he is dead, it means he is out of their sight presumed dead. Ok one shot was fired, but that does not mean he was killed, it only means that one shot was fired and a man fell to the floor. I am afraid that in my opinion that does not constitute his death, it means he could have been sent to sleep by a fast acting drug.

All this crap about being buried at sea no pictures because of internal security, I personally believe that is all CIA hype. Ok you might say I am an unbeliever, yes that’s true and neither am I gullible to think like a sheep because the multitude think that way. I believe that he is now in a very safe place away from the rest of the world being interrogated by a few people that are in the know. No doubt he will be buried at sea, but it will be in secret but not for a while yet.

If he was alive it would make more sense to this over the top secrecy, but if he is dead it is because he deserved to be and I am not going to worry either way.

Be well IAN 2411

IAN 2411

05-13-2011, 11:36 AM

SKY NEWS

At least 80 people have died after double suicide bomb blasts at a Pakistani paramilitary police training centre, said to be in revenge for Osama bin Laden's killing.

Pakistani Taliban militants have said they carried out the attacks, according to Reuters news agency.

"It's the first revenge for the martyrdom of... bin Laden. There will be more," Taliban spokesman Ehsanullah Ehsan said by telephone from an undisclosed location.

The atrocity has been condemned by Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari and British Foreign Secretary William Hague.

It was the bloodiest attack in the country since a US raid killed al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden earlier this month.

Police officer Liaqat Ali Khan said 66 of the victims were recruits for the Frontier Corps, who were about to be bussed home from the centre.
The explosions detonated as the newly trained cadets - all wearing civilian clothes - were getting into coaches to begin 10 days of leave after their course.

The attack came as Pakistan's military and civilian leadership deals with the fallout from the killing of bin Laden by US special forces.

It took place in the Charsadda area, around 19 miles north of northwestern city Peshawar.

The region has been subject to a series of attacks on government forces by militants linked to the Taliban and al Qaeda.

President Zardari expressed his condolences with the families of those killed.

"The government and people are determined to defeat terrorism and such gruesome acts cannot deter the resolve of the nation which remains united to defeat terrorists," he said.

Mr Hague: "These attacks were cowardly and indiscriminate, killing many innocent bystanders and targeting those who serve to protect Pakistan."

The Pakistani Taliban last week threatened to attack security forces to avenge bin Laden's killing in a US helicopter raid north of the capital Islamabad on May 2.

More than 4,300 people have died in suicide and bomb attacks across Pakistan in the four years since government forces raided an extremist mosque in Islamabad in 2007.
..............................................

Now it begins, I wonder who is next?

Be well IAN 2411

Thorne

05-13-2011, 02:39 PM

Now it begins, I wonder who is next?

Obviously they'll find someone else who had nothing to do with the attack on bin Laden and kill them, too. That seems to be how these things go. "You poked me in the ass so I'm gonna go and blow up that vegetable stand on the next block. That'll teach you a lesson, infidel!"

thir

05-15-2011, 08:51 AM

I
I believe that he is now in a very safe place away from the rest of the world being interrogated by a few people that are in the know. No doubt he will be buried at sea, but it will be in secret but not for a while yet.

You have a point.

thir

05-15-2011, 08:54 AM

Obviously they'll find someone else who had nothing to do with the attack on bin Laden and kill them, too. That seems to be how these things go. "You poked me in the ass so I'm gonna go and blow up that vegetable stand on the next block. That'll teach you a lesson, infidel!"

Well, that is the way these things are done, isn't it? After 9/11 a lot of completely innocent people in Afganistan, Guatanamo and other places have suffered and died.

Seems there is no law on either side, even less common sense.

Thorne

05-15-2011, 01:32 PM

Seems there is no law on either side, even less common sense.
Amen!

IAN 2411

05-18-2011, 04:16 AM

Egyptian named new Al-Qaeda leader

Report AFP – Tue, May 17, 2011

Al-Qaeda has chosen a former Egyptian Special Forces officer as interim leader of the violent extremist group in the wake of Osama bin Laden's death earlier this month, CNN reported Tuesday.

Saif al-Adel, a top Al-Qaeda strategist and senior military leader, has been tapped as "caretaker" chief of the group, CNN reported, citing former Libyan militant Noman Benotman, who has renounced Al-Qaeda's ideology.

Pakistan's The News newspaper corroborated the claim, citing unnamed sources in an article datelined Rawalpindi, a city home to the military headquarters of the Pakistani Armed Forces near the capital Islamabad.

The decision to chose Adel, also known as Muhamad Ibrahim Makkawi, came as militants grew increasingly restive over the lack of a formal successor to bin Laden, who was killed in a dramatic US commando raid deep in Pakistan on May 2, Benotman told CNN.

Bin Laden's long-time deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri, another Egyptian, is considered to be his presumed successor.

Benotman said the appointment of Adel on a temporary basis may be a way for the group to gauge reaction to having someone outside the Muslim holy region of the Arabian Peninsula at the helm.

....................................

Well i think that sums the death of OBL up.....now i suppose its more of the same.

Be well IAN 2411

Thorne

05-18-2011, 06:04 AM

Well i think that sums the death of OBL up.....now i suppose its more of the same.
I wonder. Been thinking off and on about this, and if I remember correctly bin Laden had connections with the Saudi royal family, plus a boatload of money. Can things continue as before without those resources? Or will al Quida become the headless serpent thrashing in the dust as it's blood seeps away? Or will this appointment serve to split the group even more, forcing them to waste resources with infighting rather than acts of terror?

IAN 2411

05-18-2011, 08:53 AM

I wonder. Been thinking off and on about this, and if I remember correctly bin Laden had connections with the Saudi royal family, plus a boatload of money. Can things continue as before without those resources? Or will al Quida become the headless serpent thrashing in the dust as it's blood seeps away? Or will this appointment serve to split the group even more, forcing them to waste resources with infighting rather than acts of terror?

I don’t think that Al-qaeda will be short of cash, there will be a banker backing them somewhere. All the drugs coming out of Afghanistan are not making the locals rich so someone other than they are reaping the rewards. Just like the IRA had Irish Americans, Irish Australians, and others from the fallen empire funding the cause through donations, so too will the Al-qeada. Terrorists and murderers deal in cash and the only time they look in a bank is on the point of robbery.

There are a hell of a lot of Al-qaeda sympathisers in the world, and if they only gave a $/£ each once a month. Then it is an awful large amount of honest cash going to a dishonest cause.

I do however like your thinking, “It would be nice it were fact and not wishful thinking.”

Be well IAN 2411

IAN 2411

06-13-2011, 11:14 AM

Man’s £250k deep-sea quest for Osama bin Laden’s body.
A man has invested a fortune in a diving mission to find Osama bin Laden’s body and prove to the world that the al-Qaeda terrorist is really dead.

Professional treasure diver Bill Warren from San Diego, California, will spend next month exploring the depths of the north Arabian Sea for the watery remains of the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks.

Using sophisticated technology, rented diving boats and a submarine, estimated at a cost of $400k (£250k), Mr Warren and his team hope to track down the body of bin Laden.

His team is expected to set off from Western India.

US Navy Seals dropped Osama bin Laden's body from the USS Carl Vinson into the Arabian Sea.

The eccentric 59-year-old told The New York Post why he had launched the costly expedition – reportedly funded by investors based in Chicago, Scotland and New York.

He is quoted as saying: “I am mainly doing it to prove a point to see if he is really dead. We do this because we are patriotic Americans and feel that President Obama failed to provide the proof.”

Mr Warren also added: “I have a Russian girlfriend, and she tells me that over there, in intelligence circles, they don't believe bin Laden's really dead. I do not trust my government or Obama.”

“The Obama administration should have released the photo, like we did with Billy the Kid, or Dillinger, or even Saddam Hussein.”

Talking about the challenge that lay ahead of him, Mr Warren plans to use high-tech side scan sonar which was used to find the Titanic.

US Navy Seals killed the world’s most-wanted terrorist at his compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan in May.

According to The White House, bin Laden was buried at sea from the USS Carl Vinson.

The US Government maintains that photographic evidence does exist. However, top-secret images of his corpse have only been seen by a select few politicians.

If Mr Warren manages to locate the body, he is set to carry out a DNA test onboard and deliver his own photographic evidence.
.................................................. .......................

Well I just don’t know what to say. I personally think that Mr Bill Warren is a complete lunatic, and most probably the best place for him is out at sea. At least while he is out there the rest of the population still on land are safe from him.

Be well IAN 2411

Thorne

06-13-2011, 12:06 PM

Well I just don’t know what to say. I personally think that Mr Bill Warren is a complete lunatic, and most probably the best place for him is out at sea. At least while he is out there the rest of the population still on land are safe from him.
Wow! I have to agree with you, Ian. This guys a real wacko. Using "high-tech side scan sonar which was used to find the Titanic"? To find one body? Russian intelligence analysis based upon his girlfriend? LOL! Just WOW!

Unless the Navy sealed OBL into a lead coffin, I doubt there would be much left of him to identify after even this relatively short period. There are hungry creatures at the bottom of the sea. And as pestilential as we may have considered OBL to be, those creatures will consider him a heavenly feast.

denuseri

06-15-2011, 08:31 AM

According to Rueters: JoAnne Allen:

Pakistan's top military spy agency has arrested five CIA informants who fed information to U.S. intelligence before the raid last month which killed Osama bin Laden, The New York Times reported on Wednesday.
One of the detainees was reported to be a Pakistani Army major whom officials said copied license plates of cars visiting the al Qaeda leader's compound 30 miles northwest of Islamabad.
The fate of the CIA informants arrested in Pakistan was unclear, the newspaper reported, citing American officials.
Outgoing CIA Director Leon Panetta raised the issue of the informants' detention during a trip to Islamabad last week where he met Pakistani military and intelligence officers, the newspaper said.
The Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) directorate, Pakistan's main military spy agency, declined to comment, but the army denied that any army major was among those arrested in connection with the May 2 raid by U.S. special forces in the garrison town of Abbottabad.
"There is no truth in NYT story with regards to involvement and arrest of army major in connection with the OBL (Osama bin Laden) incident," military spokesman Major-General Athar Abbas said in a statement.
A senior Pakistani security official said some people were detained in connection with the Abbottabad raid and they were still being investigated.
Asked whether those arrested were CIA informants as mentioned in the NYT report, he said: "Investigations are under way and after completion of investigation one cay say which category they belonged to."
Some in Washington see the arrest as another sign of the deep disconnect between U.S. and Pakistani priorities in the fight against extremists, the Times reported.
The United States kept Islamabad in the dark about the May 2 raid by Navy SEALs until after it was completed, humiliating Pakistan's armed forces and putting U.S. military and intelligence ties under serious strain.
Last week, at a closed Senate Intelligence Committee briefing, Deputy CIA Director Michael Morell rated Pakistan's cooperation with the United States on counterterrorism operations a "three" on a scale of 1 to 10, the Times reported, citing officials familiar with the exchange.
Other officials cautioned that his comments did not represent the administration's overall assessment, the newspaper said. "We have a strong relationship with our Pakistani counterparts and work through issues when they arise," CIA spokesman Marie Harf told the newspaper.
"Director Panetta had productive meetings last week in Islamabad. It's a crucial partnership, and we will continue to work together in the fight against Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups who threaten our country and theirs."
Asked about the Times report, a CIA spokeswoman neither confirmed nor denied it and said she had no further comment.
Pakistan's Ambassador to the United States, Husain Haqqani, was quoted as saying that the CIA and the Pakistani spy agency "are working out mutually agreeable terms for their cooperation in fighting the menace of terrorism. It is not appropriate for us to get into the details at this stage."

Stealth694

06-15-2011, 09:42 AM

Translation: Mind Your Own Business...
Those informants are probably dead or dying.
How many High level Pakistani officials have lost a cash cow with Osama Dead?

IAN 2411

06-15-2011, 02:21 PM

Translation: Mind Your Own Business...
Those informants are probably dead or dying.
How many High level Pakistani officials have lost a cash cow with Osama Dead?

I am in full agrement with all you have said. When are the UK and American Governments going to realise that Pakistan are only interested in saving their own ass.

Be well IAN 2411

IAN 2411

06-16-2011, 04:22 AM

Al-Qaeda names Zawahiri to succeed bin Laden

Factfile on new al-Qaeda chief Ayman al-Zawahiri
Al-Qaeda on Thursday named its second in command Ayman al-Zawahiri to succeed slain chief Osama bin Laden and vowed to relentlessly pursue its "jihad' against the United States and Israel.

"The general command of Al-Qaeda announces, after consultations, the appointment of Sheikh Ayman al-Zawahiri as head of the group," the jihadist network said in statement posted on an Islamist website.

Egyptian Zawahiri, the group's long-time number two, succeeds bin Laden who was killed by US commandos in a May 2 raid in Pakistan.

The statement said that under Zawahiri's leadership Al-Qaeda would relentlessly pursue its 'jihad' (holy war) against the United States and Israel.

"We seek with the aid of God to call for the religion of truth and incite our nation to fight ... by carrying out jihad against the apostate invaders ... with their head being crusader America and its servant Israel, and whoever supports them," said the statement.

The fight would continue "until all invading armies leave the land of Islam."

The extremist network affirmed that it would not "recognise any legitimacy of the so-called State of Israel."

"We will not accept or adhere to any agreement or accord that recognises it (Israel) or that robs a mile from Palestine, whether it is the United Nations controlled by top criminals or any other organisation."

Al-Qaeda also voiced its "support (to) the uprisings of our oppressed Muslim people against the corrupt and tyrant leaders who have made our nation suffer in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya Yemen, Syria and Morocco."

A wave of revolts that have rocked the Middle East and North Africa since December have succeeded in toppling autocrats in Egypt and Tunisia while others, such as Libya's Moamer Kadhafi and Syria's Bashar al-Assad are still battling uprisings in their countries.

Al-Qaeda urged those involved in the uprisings to continue their "struggle until the fall of all corrupt regimes that the West has forced onto our countries."

The extremist Sunni group made no mention of the Shiite-led uprising in the Gulf kingdom of Bahrain, crushed in mid-March by the ruling Western-allied Sunni minority which was backed by joint Gulf Arab forces.

In the last part of the statement however, the network reminds that "our religion has forbidden oppression, against Muslims and non-Muslims, against friend and foe."

"Therefore, we assure every oppressed human in this world -- most of whom are the victims of Western and American crimes -- that our religion is that of justice and equality," it said.

Like his slain Saudi-born co-conspirator, the 59-year-old surgeon Zawahiri has been hiding ever since the United States declared its war on terror after the September 11, 2001 attacks.

Zawahiri, now the United State's most wanted man, was jailed for three years in Egypt for militancy and was implicated in the assassination of Egyptian president Anwar Sadat in 1981, and a 1997 massacre of tourists in Luxor.

Facing a death sentence, he left Egypt in the mid-1980s initially for Saudi Arabia, but soon headed for Pakistan's northwestern city of Peshawar where the resistance to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan was based, and then to Afghanistan, where he joined forces with bin Laden.

Zawahiri, gifted with brains but bereft of bin Laden's potent charisma, has long been seen as the mastermind behind the global terror franchise.

From hiding, he has issued video missives calling for war on the West. The most recent was a filmed eulogy to bin Laden, vowing to pursue jihad in a tape reported by the SITE Intelligence Group on June 8.

It was a message of loyalty to bin Laden, whom analysts believe alone had the charisma capable of uniting an increasingly disparate group divided between Egyptians and non-Egyptian Arabs.

The eulogy came nearly a month after a Saudi newspaper reported on May 5 that as the struggle for power simmered within the network, Zawahiri led US troops to bin Laden through his courier.

Al-Watan newspaper, quoting an unnamed "regional source," had said the top two Al-Qaeda men had differences and that the courier was a Pakistani national who knew he was being followed by the US military but disguised the fact.

With the return of an Egyptian figure in Al-Qaeda, Saif al-Adel, last autumn from Iran, the Egyptian faction had hatched a plan to dispose of Saudi-born bin Laden, according to Al-Watan.

It said Zawahiri's faction had persuaded bin Laden to leave tribal areas along the Afghan-Pakistan border and take shelter instead in Abbottabad near Islamabad where he was finally unearthed and shot dead by elite US Navy SEALs.
.................................................. ......

Well there you have it, as one fanatical lunatic expires another one takes his place, or has Zawahiri only just been recognised as the mastermind behind El-Qaeda? With the record this guy has it makes you wonder.

Be well IAN 2411