the story of Our Lady "the Virgin Mary" in the muslims holly book (quran)

[domaster]

the story of Our Lady "the Virgin Mary" & the The birth of Christ in the muslims holly book (quran)
ther is all Chapter 19
The Holy Quran : Chapter 19

http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/quran19.html

interesting story

[Thorne]

Interesting? Silly is more like it. It's even sillier than the biblical version, and that takes some doing.


019.008 He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?"
Sounds to me like an impotent old man trying to explain his pregnant wife. There are other, more realistic, explanations.


019.016 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
Yeah, they used to do that here in the states, too. Send the pregnant teenager to live with family somewhere, so the neighbors won't know she got pregnant. Of course, nobody would claim that the baby was conceived miraculously. But I'm quite sure at least one of the parents would be stomping around, muttering, "Jesus H. Christ, how could she do this to me!"

[domaster]

the Silly thing when you say that about the holly books Respect the feelings of the believers Please

& the "old man" its a Messenger of God "Zakariya - Peace be upon him"
& god is not responsible for man Mistakes . He's here to hear and see and judge the Day of Judgement --- not Jesus who make the teenage pregnant It is the responsibility of parents Thank you for participating
But this is not our subject
In the end I just wanted to share more knowledge with those who are looking for
thanks

[Thorne]

the Silly thing when you say that about the holly books Respect the feelings of the believers Please
Why? They never seem to show respect for my disbelief.


In the end I just wanted to share more knowledge with those who are looking for thanks
This is not knowledge, but superstition. It is certainly not truth.

[domaster]

This is your opinion I respect that but You can not impose on others
You do not have to tell the others what they believe or not

[denuseri]

Thorne: Alltough I didnt understand the reason for the initial post and still dont (which may be a simple matter of a language barrier at work), I have to say that its not very nice to jump all over it in such an unwelcoming belicose and demeaning manner just becuase one's beliefs differ from those expressed by the authors of the text presented in the link.

domaster: Is this post intended to initiate a dialoge between different faiths as to the story of the virgin mary and how it differs somewhat between the adhereants of Islam, Judism, Bahai, Christianity and many others?

[Thorne]

Thorne: Alltough I didnt understand the reason for the initial post and still dont (which may be a simple matter of a language barrier at work), I have to say that its not very nice to jump all over it in such an unwelcoming belicose and demeaning manner just becuase one's beliefs differ from those expressed by the authors of the text presented in the link.

The language barrier may be part of the problem, I agree. I read the story, and found it rather fractured and incomprehensible for the most part, and filled with just as much fantasy as the biblical story it's trying to deny. I'm sure that the story sounds much more appealing in the original Arabic, though I would not understand it that way. But it is still making claims that certain events actually happened without having any evidence for those claims. After all, we're talking about a book written more than 600 years after these events supposedly took place. Even the new testament is older than that! And it's all based on "revelations" from an angel? If someone today tried to make that claim they would be immediately placed into an institution! (Or maybe not! The claims made by Scientologists are even more fantastical, even more insane, and they've managed to stay out of the asylums.)

Of course, if domaster wishes to provide evidence that this particular story has any more basis in fact than the biblical story, I'd be happy to hear it.

[denuseri]

All the same is it absolutely nesseasary to be so belicose and demeaning in your critique?

Isnt it enough for you to say, I persoanlly dont agree with the work your citings validity and leave it at that? Instead of trying to jump on everyone's whose faith differs from your own...yet again and derail yet another thread with a bunch of unessesary name calling and the like?

[Thorne]

All the same is it absolutely nesseasary to be so belicose and demeaning in your critique?

Sorry. It's a profound religious experience for me. :)

[domaster]

Dear friends
Book Quran came down 610 after Jesus Christ
As Muslims see , that Islam, & Christianity and Judaism, its religion of God (allah) and God particularize every Nation with the Prophet
& The faith of Muslims will not be full and complete only after that they believe in all prophets as they believe in Prophet Muhammad
And to love them as they love their Prophet (in the sense that love the Prophets more than themselves)
And therefore they love the Virgin Mary and have all the love and respect and is a an example for Muslim women

It is true that the Quranic text loses the beauty and the miracle of language after translation
Of the spectrum insist all Muslims of all races to learn the Arabic language to reflect and enjoy the words of god (Allah)

And of course has come Koran story of the Virgin Mary and Christ
As did the Bible Including the predecessors of the prophets and righteous people

ps :
Please forgive me for my language
I have learned English from watching the movies & the chat rooms

[denuseri]

The language thing is just a small hurdle for us to all overcome and nothing to be ashamed of domaster.


We who are Bahai have a similar beliefs in that:

Throughout history, God has revealed Himself to humanity through a series of divine Messengers, whose teachings guide and educate us and provide the basis for the advancement of human society.

These Messengers have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad.

Their religions come from the same Source and are in essence successive chapters of one religion from God.

Bahá’u’lláh, the latest of these Messengers, brought new spiritual and social teachings for our time.

His essential message is of unity.

He taught the oneness of God, the oneness of the human family, and the oneness of religion.

Bahá'u'lláh said, “The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens,” and that, as foretold in all the sacred scriptures of the past, now is the time for humanity to live in unity.

[Thorne]

Please forgive me for my language
There is nothing to forgive, my friend. Your command of English is far superior to my command of Arabic, or any other language, even those I actually studied.


It is true that the Quranic text loses the beauty and the miracle of language after translation
This is nice to hear for a change. Too many Christians only accept the (rather bad) King James translation of the bible. The one which was translated from the (not quite so bad) Latin version, which was translated from the (not nearly so bad) Greek version, which was translated from the (almost good) Hebrew version, and so on, and so on.


And of course has come Koran story of the Virgin Mary and Christ
As did the Bible Including the predecessors of the prophets and righteous people
But the Muslims don't accept Jesus as the Son of God, as Christians do. So which holy book are we to believe?

Not that it really matters, of course. Neither of them, in any translation, was actually written by eye-witnesses to the events described. Both claim to be the inerrant word of God. And both are notably lacking in their tolerance for people of other faiths.

I don't believe either of them.

[domaster]

ferst : Please allow me about the love that holds Muslims to Jesus Christ
thank you denuseri for Statement & And To be honest that it is the first time I hear "béhaïsme" Thank you will see in this religion

& thorne
2) for what u said about the book and translated the Bible and different belief between Muslims and Christians


But the Muslims don't accept Jesus as the Son of God, as Christians do. So which holy book are we to believe?

Not that it really matters, of course. Neither of them, in any translation, was actually written by eye-witnesses to the events described. Both claim to be the inerrant word of God. And both are notably lacking in their tolerance for people of other faiths.

I don't believe either of them.



I wish that to see the video I have found a lot of answers in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYMKQKSV0bY&feature=share

thank you Dear friends

[Thorne]

I wish that to see the video I have found a lot of answers in
I'm not impressed. You have a young man trading in one collection of superstitions for another. You can also find videos of Muslims switching to Christianity. You can find videos of Muslims and Christians turning away from their faith to become atheists. And videos of atheists going back to religion. None of it means anything. 99% of the population of the world could believe that the world was flat. That doesn't make the Earth flat, it just makes 99% of the people wrong. 99% of the people can believe in gods. That doesn't make gods real.

If you wish to convince me that Islam, or any religion, is true you must provide evidence! Real, testable evidence. Not testimonials, not anecdotes, not lists of believers. Show me how anything you believe can be true. If your god is all powerful as you claim, that should be simple for him.

[denuseri]

I dont believe that the topic of the thread is about weather or not any given religion or belief system is better than another Thorne so much as domaster is trying to point out that muslims and christians have some common ground that is shared between them, even though I know that you so desperatly wish to deride all faiths and beliefs that are not your own, a point you have made abundantly clear.

Such hypocrisy used to astound me when coming from you too once upon a time...the man in the video is doing the very thing you yourself recomend all people to do, he has went out and studied things and decided for himself which path "he" wishes to follow to God if any.

Just as the vast majority of us who are at liberty too ourselves, even in the areas of the world in which you claim we cant, my own faith arose quite letterally from such a place.

Instead of deriding him maby you would be better served by praising him.

But keep your blindfold on, keep twisting what anyone else says to feed the fire of your bully pulpit and insulting others. It must be how you wish aethism to be portrayed I guess.



There was a point in time when not all Christans believed that Jesus was divine in and of his own right eaither btw.


Addittonally, all of the faiths mentioned (other than aethism apparently) seem to in fact to preach tolerance of others.


Love thy nieghbor as thyself is a very common theme in all the majior religious ethos.


That doesnt mean kill your nieghbor if he disagrees with you.


Nor does it mean insult him if his beliefs differ from your own.


It means seek a peacful means to come to an understanding.


Fundamentalism and secularism are not part of Allah's will and they are derisive and repugnant in His eyes.


Such things derive from the evil in mens hearts that lead to misinterpetation of what other good men have written about God and His wishes where as we His creation are conserned.

[Thorne]

Such hypocrisy astounds me from you Thorne...the man in the video is doing the very thing you yourself recomend all people to do, he has went out and studied things and decided for himself which path "he" wishes to follow to God.
True, but he's basing his search on the premise that there IS a god. Without evidence. But that's beside the point, it's still a belief in something unprovable.

There was a point in time when not all Christans believed that Jesus was divine in and of his own right eaither btw.
Yes, I'm aware of that. Which only lends weight to my arguments that religions adapt to suit the people who need them, not the other way around. Which is even more evidence that these holy books are NOT the inerrant word of god.


Addittonally, all of the faiths mentioned (other than aethism) seem to in fact to preach tolerance of others.
You might want to check into the Blood Libel to see just how "tolerant" of Jews Christians have been. And look up the punishment for apostasy in Islam. Not quite so tolerant as you presume.


Love thy nieghbor as thyself is a very common theme in all the majior religious ethos.
As long as that neighbor believes as you do. It's not so clear cut otherwise.


That doesnt mean kill your nieghbor if he disagrees with you.
Again, look into the Muslim hatred of Jews, or Christian hatred of Jews. Hell, just look at some of the Christian hatred towards Muslims! And vice versa.


Nor does it mean insult him if his beliefs differ from your own.
How about when those beliefs defy logic?


It means seek a peacful means to come to an understanding.
Yes, just look how peacefully the Sunni's and Sufi's are resolving their differences.


Fundamentalism and secularism are not part of Allah's will and they are derisive and repugnant in His eyes.
Doesn't sound too tolerant to me. Don't fundamentalists count towards loving thy neighbor?


Such things derive from the evil in mens hearts and misinterpetation of what men have written about God.
Perhaps the basic problem is that there has been so much contradictory testimony written about gods.

As I have said many times, I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe. But if they want to post those beliefs in an open forum like this I have no problem in telling them what I think. As abrasive and annoying as you believe my posts are, I find such proselytizing to be equally abrasive and annoying.

Few people would be upset if I were to ridicule someone who posted a screed about alien bases on the far side of the moon, or unicorns raining from clear skies, or any of dozens of equally inane ideas. Why must I keep quiet about religious ideas, which I find to be just as inane as any of those others?

[Incidentally, some of the comments I've quoted above don't appear in your post, but showed up when I clicked the "Reply With Quote" button. I assume you intended to delete them, and I'm not sure why they showed up, but I decided to respond to them anyway. Perhaps a moderator could look into this issue? It can create some confusion, I'm sure.]

[denuseri]

Look Thorne Im not going to go over the whole thing all over again, in yet another thread you come off as crass and hypocritical whenever anyone in any thread so much as mentions the word religion and then after going on for days you will still refuse to recognize that your own beliefs, are just as unprovable to be right and therfor just as invalidly based on anthing but blind faith..as anyone elses in this matter.

And you seem bound and determined to ruin this thread alltogether as well.

What could be a good chance to have a thread examining commonalities between muslims and chirsitans so they could maby find some common ground..you are trying to divert into yet another aethisms hates anything thats not aethism rant...so once again..Im out, have fun with your intolerance of others and belittleing of their beliefs, I know you know full well how insulting your being too with your sophistry.

You can enjoy debating it with yourself from now on, I am done.

[domaster]

thank you Dear friends
and Thorne I think you know a lot about religions for someone who does not believe in God
I do not know if that you was a believer in God or you was searching for God because it is impossible to be an atheist and knowledgeable religion
I do not understand this thing ... you Want to prove the existence of God ...
Human born on instinct
If you think you are very distinct and very special for the rest of humanity
And you deserve to waived God just for you
To show you signs or miracles to believe in him?
well u can wait for it ... who know ...
Signs and wonders before us every day and every thing
Leading thinkers and scientists around the world, after hoping and thinking and research have recognized the inevitability of a Creator of this universe
other video maybe will hellp u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd08KIqkrZw

And I hope that your response or intolerance without anger or insults
Just conversation

[Thorne]

Thorne I think you know a lot about religions for someone who does not believe in God
I do not know if that you was a believer in God or you was searching for God because it is impossible to be an atheist and knowledgeable religion
I don't claim to know a LOT about religion, but I am learning, and the more I do learn the more secure I become in my atheism.

But why do you think it's impossible to be both an atheist and knowledgeable about religion? Most modern atheists were raised in religious homes and communities, as I was. It is through the study of our religions that we realized the fallacies of religion.


I do not understand this thing ... you Want to prove the existence of God ...
That's not quite true. I think it is as impossible to prove the existence of gods as it is impossible to prove they do NOT exist. What I ask is that you prove that your religious beliefs are true. Prove that prayer works. Prove that there is a soul. Prove that there is a heaven. We cannot even show reliable evidence that there is any kind of life after death, despite the beliefs of billions!


If you think you are very distinct and very special for the rest of humanity
And you deserve to waived God just for you
To show you signs or miracles to believe in him?
Quite the opposite. I do NOT believe that I'm special or any different than anyone else. I have, perhaps, certain talents, but lack other talents. You, I'm sure, also have certain talents, and lack some others. We are all similar, though not identical.

I suppose what I am saying, though, is that, according to your religions, God made me, which means he made me an atheist. But being an atheist I can see past the trappings of religions and ask the question, "IS there a god?" And if you ask that question without assuming that gods exist you force yourself to find evidence for that existence. And there is none.


other video maybe will hellp u
I don't have the time or the inclination to go through 40+ minutes of this, so it's fortunate that he exposes his fallacy in the very beginning. The speaker says,

We know that when a person dies ... that the spirit of the individual is brought back, and he or she hears ... their footsteps. Then two angels, who will be jet black with blue eyes, will come and sit up the individual in the grave... and ask three questions.
My question is, HOW do we know this? Who has seen this? Who has recorded it? Where is the evidence for it? And the only answers I can find say that NO ONE has seen this. So he doesn't KNOW this, he BELIEVES it. But apparently he cannot tell the difference between the two.

So, I offer you this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPlMSkSXxz4&feature=related)in return. Hitchens is a leader in the atheist community, a brilliant speaker, and far more eloquent than I can be.


And I hope that your response or intolerance without anger or insults
Just conversation
I will try. It is difficult sometimes when, as an atheist, I am constantly being called evil, or delusional, or having my position deliberately misrepresented, or being compared to Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

But you must understand that, to me, your belief systems are no different than superstitions and I will continue to consider them as such until you can show me how they are different.

[Thorne]

What could be a good chance to have a thread examining commonalities between muslims and chirsitans so they could maby find some common ground..
So you're saying that atheist should have no say in these matters? Isn't that rather ... dogmatic?

you are trying to divert into yet another aethisms hates anything thats not aethism rant.
I'm sorry that this is all you can see of my arguments. I'm not preaching hate. I'm preaching understanding. And the first thing I am trying to get people to understand is that your belief system, or domaster's, or anyone else's, is always based on the presumption that gods exist, without ever requiring evidence for that existence.

I'm sorry if you find that hateful.

[domaster]

just ask ur self
how much belief exist out there in the word
& how much atheist exist out there in the word
Majority of Humans thay are Wrong & you and Few atheist you are Right & you see Right
* till now i never Hated a Person just for hes belief Or the contrary

[Thorne]

just ask ur self
how much belief exist out there in the word
& how much atheist exist out there in the word
Irrelevant. More relevant might be, how many believers out there have really examined their religion, and how many are simply carrying on what their parents taught them?


Majority of Humans thay are Wrong & you and Few atheist you are Right & you see Right
I don't claim that anyone is right or wrong. I only claim that believers have no evidence to support their position. The atheist position is the default: if there is no evidence for gods, there is no reason to postulate the existence of gods.


* till now i never Hated a Person just for hes belief Or the contrary
Till now? I hope that doesn't mean you're starting to hate me! :)

According to the Bible:
"Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:13)

And the Quran is just as adamant:
"Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant." (4:91)

Not something to make me feel warm and fuzzy about the tolerance of religion.

[denuseri]

So you're saying that atheist should have no say in these matters? Isn't that rather ... dogmatic?

No, Im saying that they should perhaps be respectful when discusing these matters instead of hateful.

I'm sorry that this is all you can see of my arguments. I'm not preaching hate. I'm preaching understanding.

You dont preach understanding by constantly drawing analogies between someone elses faith and make believe childrens stories or fantastical flying pigs and the like.

And the first thing I am trying to get people to understand is that your belief system, or domaster's, or anyone else's, is always based on the presumption that gods exist, without ever requiring evidence for that existence.

Thats no different than aethism being based on the "presumption" of a god or gods not existing and you know it, so why try to spin it otherwise, you stated that enumerable times, you state it every single time you post a responce, you will even I predict re-state it againg and try to wiggle your way around the fact of it yet again and ignore the fact that your beliefs have no more validity than any others.

So whats the point in my continued participation if you refuse to debate without clinging to such hypocricy hummm?

I'm sorry if you find that hateful.

You cant prove god doesnt exist any more so than anyone can prove he does...ergo, all arguments eaither way are moot.

All of which you continously ignore and then try and twist with the upmost of sophistry against all logic, becuase it doesnt agree with your dogmatic agenda.

Which is why I am done.

[domaster]

Till now? I hope that doesn't mean you're starting to hate me!

no im not
& 2)you dont have the right to read only half of Verses you must read it all or that will be impropriety
"Take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
" (4:91)
noooooooooo

(Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant). (4:91)

killd thos dont stop hurting u & Fighting you

and that mean Self-defense

[Thorne]

[B][COLOR=pink]Thats no different than aethism being based on the "presumption" of a god or gods not existing
But that's just the point, a point which you cannot seem to accept. I DON'T presume that gods do not exist; I don't see evidence FOR their existence and so I don't see any reason to presume that they do.

[Thorne]

You're right. I wasn't aware that the verse I quoted was taken out of context. I apologize.

But doesn't the phrase, "If they keep not aloof from you..." imply that they cannot live amongst you? I can accept that "nor offer you peace nor hold their hands" would imply that they attack you, but not staying aloof doesn't seem to be the same thing.

And what of: "They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them" (4:89)

Does this not imply that you cannot be friendly to non-believers, and that you should kill them if they turn away from Allah?

[domaster]

thos Verses tallk to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him And his companions
they Suffered A lot of by idolaters tortured and killed more then 10years
after that god give hem the right Self-defense


Does this not imply that you cannot be friendly to non-believers, and that you should kill them if they turn away from Allah?
is not truth
Incorrect
as long Muslims Protect , as their fellow Christians and Jews
And still living among them since the 14 century
they live as brothers
& i see a lots of Christians and Jews Defend ther fellow Muslims & islam

keep trying

[Thorne]

Yes, there are many people of all religions who would defend others against hatred and violence. There are many atheists who would do the same. As an atheist I do NOT attack religious people just because they are religious, I attack (verbally) the religions which they adhere to, because of the conflicts and irrationalities I see in them. Here in the US I can see the Christians mounting stronger and stronger attacks upon our government and education systems, trying to infiltrate their beliefs into everyday life for everyone. While professing tolerance they mount verbal and physical attacks against non-Christians and atheists. And I see little different when I look at Islam. Or Judaism. Or any other religious group. Each chooses to interpret their holy books in ways that suit them, to the detriment of others.

[domaster]

well you Say this over and over again
Trying to bring the differences, differentiating between religions

with Angry vindictive tone on religions

I hope only you are not Satan worshiped ;)

[denuseri]

But that's just the point, a point which you cannot seem to accept. I DON'T presume that gods do not exist; I don't see evidence FOR their existence and so I don't see any reason to presume that they do.

Which is in and of itself a "presumption" of something's non-existance.

Yet again, you prove my own point for me with blatant hypocrisy.

You are still making a presumtion/ assumption/ corolation/ guestimation etc etc etc eaither way regardless of what word you wish to use, becuase you cannot "KNOW" for sure with any real certitude any more than anyone else can one way or the other.

And Ive come to realize that no amount of logic will work with you on this topic becuase you choose to not let logic apply to your own arguments, you just keep on trying to mince words just so you can maintain your dogmatic agenda you are being an outright sophist and insist anyway that only your way is the right one, which my dear Thorne makes you no different than those very secular fundamentalists that you blame for all wrongs on the earth.

Which is really sad, since you appear to be smart enough to actually be able to understand and realize when your doing it, yet consiously choosing to ignore it for your own convience.

[Thorne]

Which is in and of itself a "presumption" of something's non-existance.

All right, then, maybe you can explain it to me. Just how is NOT presuming the existence of something the same as presuming its non-existence? I honestly cannot understand how the two are the same.


You are still making a presumtion/ assumption/ corolation/ guestimation etc etc etc eaither way regardless of what word you wish to use, becuase you cannot "KNOW" for sure with any real certitude any more than anyone else can one way or the other.
I have already admitted that I cannot know for certain that there are no gods. All I can know is that there is no viable evidence FOR gods, and therefore there is no rational reason for ME to assume that there are. I don't claim they do not exist, I don't presume they do not exist, I simply do not assume or presume that they do. You rationalize your beliefs with faith. That's fine. I choose not to rely on faith, but on evidence. Why is that so bad?


And Ive come to realize that no amount of logic will work with you on this topic becuase you choose to not let logic apply to your own arguments, you just keep on trying to mince words just so you can maintain your dogmatic agenda you are being an outright sophist and insist anyway that only your way is the right one, which my dear Thorne makes you no different than those very secular fundamentalists that you blame for all wrongs on the earth.
Again, I have never claimed that my way is the right one. I leave those claims to religion. All I claim is that my way is right for ME.

Do I ridicule religious dogma? Absolutely, when it makes ridiculous claims without evidence! Do I call people stupid? No, not usually. When they blindly accept the teachings of a religion without really understanding it then yes, I believe they are acting stupidly. Do I attack people because they have faith? No! I disagree with them.

The OP in this thread posted a little story from the Quran dealing with the mother of Jesus. Did I launch an attack against him? No, I derided the story! I did not compare him to evil Muslims, past or present. I did not ridicule his faith. I pointed out what I perceived to be fallacies in the story! If this had been a modern book and I had made these kinds of claims to the author no one would have cared. But because some people seem to think that this particular collection of stories is somehow holy, then I am not permitted to point out where I think they are wrong? Sorry, but I don't play by those rules. Everything is fair game.

[Thorne]

well you Say this over and over again
Trying to bring the differences, differentiating between religions
Well, every religion claims to represent the one true faith, the only path to God and Salvation. They can't all be right.


with Angry vindictive tone on religions
"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings." - Victor Stenger
(Not intended as an attack just against Islam, but against all dogmatic religions.)


I hope only you are not Satan worshiped ;)
LOL! Have no fear. The reasons for not believing in gods applies just as readily to devils.

[denuseri]

All right, then, maybe you can explain it to me. Just how is NOT presuming the existence of something the same as presuming its non-existence? I honestly cannot understand how the two are the same.

Seriously? This is a prime example of the type of sophistry Im talking about.


I have already admitted that I cannot know for certain that there are no gods. Ergo your presuming there to be no god or gods...duh.

All I can know is that there is no viable evidence FOR gods,( in your opinion) and therefore there is no rational reason for ME to assume that there are. (again, thats your presumtion to make, other highly ratinonal people however apparently disagree with that assumption) I don't claim they do not exist, I don't presume they do not exist, I simply do not assume or presume that they do. (Same thing honey child)You rationalize your beliefs with faith. Just like you rationalize yours since by your own admission you dont know one way or the other. That's fine. (then why try to associate my belief and those of others in a derogatory manner every single time you make a post on religion?) I choose not to rely on faith, but on evidence. (what evidence?) Why is that so bad? Its not, using sophistry and acting like the fundamentalists you claim to oppose however imho is.


Again, I have never claimed that my way is the right one. Actually you do that bery thing with the way you present your arguments. I leave those claims to religion. Aethiests make just as many unfounded claims from what I can tell. All I claim is that my way is right for ME. And then in the same breath tell everyone else how they are a bunch of superstitiot idiots for believing what they believe. See the hipocracy at work there yet?

Do I ridicule religious dogma? Absolutely, when it makes ridiculous claims without evidence! Do I call people stupid? No, not usually. Actually you do several times in each and every thread on religion Ive seen you post in. In fact you implied it just now yet again. When they blindly accept the teachings of a religion without really understanding it then yes, (who are you to know weather or not someone is blindly doing anything? Are you in their minds? ) I believe they are acting stupidly. Do I attack people because they have faith? No! I disagree with them. All while calling what they believe in "ridiculous, superstition, stupid. fanciful etc etc the list goes on"...those are all forms of attack.

The OP in this thread posted a little story from the Quran dealing with the mother of Jesus. Did I launch an attack against him? No, I derided the story! I did not compare him to evil Muslims, past or present. I did not ridicule his faith. Um Im sory sugar, you actually did ridicule his faith and mine, and everyone else who wasnt an aetheist. I pointed out what I perceived to be fallacies in the story! In a rather belicose manner I might add. If this had been a modern book and I had made these kinds of claims to the author no one would have cared. But because some people seem to think that this particular collection of stories is somehow holy, (here you go again attacking all people of faith) then I am not permitted to point out where I think they are wrong? Pointing out where one doesnt share the same beliefs as anoyther isnt the issue, its calling them all stupid, ridiculous, fanciful, superstitious, blind, etc etc when you do it. Sorry, but I don't play by those rules. Everything is fair game.

Apparently...(thats the battle hymn of the sophists btw) ...which is why I get very tired of trying to discuss religion with you. You even make it where its inpossible for people of any different faiths outside of yours to try and seek any common ground between each other.

[Thorne]

All right, then, maybe you can explain it to me. Just how is NOT presuming the existence of something the same as presuming its non-existence? I honestly cannot understand how the two are the same.
Seriously? This is a prime example of the type of sophistry Im talking about.
I think this is a primary sticking point between us, and until we can resolve it I'd prefer to hold off discussion of the other points here.

So yes, I'm quite serious. I truly cannot understand your point here. I maintain that NOT believing in something is very different from believing that something is not. I see a large difference between saying, "I do not believe in God", and saying, "I believe there is no God." The first is a statement of disbelief while the second is a statement of belief. It is POSSIBLE to say both, but saying the first does not necessarily mean that the second is true. In my mind what you are seeming to imply is like saying, since I do not believe in RED, therefore I must believe in GREEN. Both MAY be true, but neither is dependent upon the other.

[denuseri]

Not at all:... when you say you do not have a belief in "red" becuase you think there is no evidence for its existance it is in fact exactly the same as saying you do not believe that Red exists.

Green has nothing to do with it.

[domaster]

you know what i Hate most ...

When people talk about God as if they're talking about humans or animals or anything else creature created by god
This is a big mistake
that God
Nothing like it
And we can not resemble a creature to creator
This is because of the limited human intellect

Does not apply to God No time or place
Because time and space creatures created by God
So God does not get old
And it does not apply to Starter Beginning and the End
he was Not created by creator and not born dos not have Family
Has always been and will be
And God does not die

And because of our thought that limited with the nature of the universe we live in.!!!
And who are still trying to understand ... (universe )

Find us whenever we think of God
Intentionally or unintentionally we resemble his creatures with hem God

With respect to all
This is a fact Thought limited
One so we had the meeting
And collect our thoughts and beliefs in a peaceful manner
For a deeper understanding of the universe that we are a part

Just a note I wanted to share with you

[Thorne]

Not at all:... when you say you do not have a belief in "red" becuase you think there is no evidence for its existance it is in fact exactly the same as saying you do not believe that Red exists.
Exactly my point! But saying that I do not believe that Red exists is NOT the same as saying I believe that red does NOT exist.

[Thorne]

domaster,

You claim that we mortals are unable to understand God, our intellect to limited too comprehend his true nature. And then you go on to explain his true nature: God does not get old; He was not created by a creator; He was not born and does not have a family; God does not die!

And I ask you, once again, How do you KNOW? What evidence is there to support your claims about God's nature? Yes, you have faith, that I understand. But the only thing you have which tells you about God is the Quran, or the Bible if you are Christian, or the Torah if you are Jewish. And all of these documents were written by men! Men who had no more idea of what God is than you or I can have.

Oh, certainly, they claim their statements came directly from God. Who would believe them if they didn't? But if God revealed the Torah to the Israelites, and if God revealed the New Testament to the Christians, and if God revealed the Quran to Muhammad, why do they disagree so blatantly on the very nature of God? Why do they disagree so widely on what God expects us to do?

And if God is so far beyond our intellects, why does he have so many human failings? We "know" that God gets angry. We "know" that God gets jealous. These are HUMAN emotions, implying that God is more like us than you claim. We "know" that God kills innocent children. We "know" that God destroys entire cities. These actions don't make God so hard to understand after all. Why, it's almost as if God were a reflection of our own minds!

[domaster]

well I thought you do not believe in god
:(
Are you from thois who say anything just to appear

& Do not compare the Quran Gospel

Gospel was written after more of 100 years after the lifting of Jesus Christ
Quran Books written by Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah Companions Memorizers in charge of it

[Thorne]

well I thought you do not believe in god
I don't. That's the point of my post. You are someone who can believe without proof. I require proof.


& Do not compare the Quran Gospel

Gospel was written after more of 100 years after the lifting of Jesus Christ
Quran Books written by Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah Companions Memorizers in charge of it
Yes, the New Testament was written long after the death of Jesus. By people who did not know him, by people who were not there.

The Quran was dictated to Muhammad by an angel, which only he could see or hear, of course. It was memorized by his Companions and written down later. Yeah, not much chance of transcription errors there, right?

But both of these are third person accounts of events which none of the writers witnessed and for which no one can provide any evidence.

The Quran is no more believable in its descriptions of God and his commands than the Bible, the Torah or the Book of Mormon. They are all filled with speculation, conjecture and wishful thinking, all wrapped up in religious dogma.

[leo9]

[QUOTE=denuseri;922381]Addittonally, all of the faiths mentioned (other than aethism apparently) seem to in fact to preach tolerance of others.

I can't believe you are serious. As for Xianity, if you think that has always been tolerant of other religions you slept through History 101. As for Islam, the Hadith says "He that changes his religion, he must be slain," and that is still the law in many Middle Eastern states. In India the Hindus are persecuting Muslims as enthusiastically as the other way around. They used to say Buddhists were always tolerant, until the Sri Lankan Buddhists started slaughtering their Hindu neighbours.

With the arguable exception of Stalinist Russia, I can't think of an example of atheist persecutions.

[denuseri]

Thanks for taking a comment I made personally to Thorne to highlight how he as an aethiest appeared to not be as tollerant in his arguments as he purposed all aethiests to be completely out of context Leo and turning around and insulting me to boot.

[Thorne]

With the arguable exception of Stalinist Russia, I can't think of an example of atheist persecutions.
And even there, you cannot say those persecutions were in the cause of atheism. They were performed to satisfy the cause of Communism. And a flawed communism at that.

[domaster]

leo9
(((As for Islam, the Hadith says "He that changes his religion, he must be slain," and that is still the law in many Middle Eastern states)))
Are you serious leo9

I live in the Middle East
I have not seen and not heard in my life ever ever that someone be killd
For change religion
And very rarely hear about the Muslims who left Islam
maybe
Perhaps the poor and the needy have turned to Christianity for a living or Nationality

All the great efforts undertaken by the Church to eradicate Islam in the Middle East starting with Crusades
Trying to erase all traces of civilization and Islamic beliefs as they did with the Americas, North and South
do not forget Australia (in fact the whole world)

I do not blame and i do not urge or something
Islam forbids incitement and blaming the any one for his father, or grandfather mistac
Each individual is be judged for his actions

Other information, according to statistics lately erected
Islam is the religion most prevalent speed of all religions
People from all religions and beliefs and from different social positions convert to Islam every day

ps :
Please forgive me for my language its not so...
I have learned English from watching the movies & the chat rooms

[denuseri]

I would love a link explaining just what Xianity really is, all I could find was an obscure refernce on wikipedia to a fictious religion and some cross references that do not explain anything but say its some kind of new age slang for Chrisianity?

In any event I don't believe the topic of this thread is to discuss what aethism is or is not, nor to constantly refute what one believes about what someone's elses religion as being false for whatever reason or insult it's adhereants intelligence. People are going to believe what they wish anyways where as that is concerned.

I dont believe the main message of Hinduism, Judism, Buddism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai or Wicca is one of anything other than to love one another and help each other, to live together in peace and harmony. Yes its true that in the past and even today their are people who do bad things in the name of their religion and I am all for getting people to stop doing such things, to be tollerent of one another beliefs. Some like aethiests may feel like they don't need to have faith in an outside force to help them in that endeavor and thats perfectly fine. But they shouldn't be fundamentally insistant on that which they cannot prove eaither or going on some kind of rampage to see all religion abolished.

Since no one can prove themselves right on any of it, doesnt it make more sence to just let people believe what they wish and punnish actions instead of ideas?

All I am asking is why can't we all stop nitpicking about the specifics as we move into the future?

Focus on common ground as opposed to making things worse by fostering divisions?

[Thorne]

I have not seen and not heard in my life ever ever that someone be killd
For change religion
And very rarely hear about the Muslims who left Islam

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda‎) is commonly defined in Islam as the rejection in word or deed of their former religion (apostasy) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. Islamic scholarship differs on the earthly punishment for apostasy, ranging from death to no punishment at all.[1]
From a Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam):
"Many medieval Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence held that apostasy by a male Muslim is punishable by death, differing only on whether to execute the apostate immediately or grant the apostate an opportunity to repent and thus avoid penalty. They also differed on the punishment of a female apostate: death or imprisonment until repentance,[2] these judgements are still adopted by extremist Islamic Scholars today."

Those who face death or imprisonment for turning away from their religion are unlikely to do so.

[domaster]

Wikipedia ::::: Is not an Islamic reference

And I think when you want to inquire and understand something, ask specialists in this thing
Whatever...

Apostasy is not only limited or restricted or confined to islam
As long as the sanctions down on the piece of apostasy to how known its not come with islam its old as old as the humanbeing on earth

The prophets and their fellows and they do the apostasy punishment as policy deterrent

The prophets unto their fellows, and they do a policy deterrent

Otherwise, many people will followed their whims and whims of the devil
& that happen lots
And do not forget sanctions revealed by God to the apostates
And their stories are known in Valangel Altorat and Alzabor and the Koran

And if you want to Learn & be gauged from something ask the people of it.

[Thorne]

domaster, it sounds as though you are saying that we can only trust Islam to be truthful about Islam.

Very well, let's try these (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/)!
"We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116). But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits."

Or we could look here (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/apostates.htm):
"Dear Apostates, If you have left Islam and do not want your information listed here, please understand that its very important for apostates to form a group. Nothing agitates a Muslim, as much as seeing a group of people who have left Islam. This is why Mohammed ordered to kill us! He knew we know the truth about Islam, and we would be the ones who could make the lies he was selling to people fall down to the floor like an imaginary sand castle." [Emphasis mine.]

And these are former Muslims, remember. They have intimate knowledge of Islam.

I would point out that Islam is not alone in proscribing its followers from thinking for themselves. Many religions do the same. It seems to be one of the prime tenets of religion: belief trumps rational thought. This is the antithesis of science, which values rational thought above everything.

That does not mean one cannot have faith and be a scientist. Far from it. There have been, and are, many scientists who believe in one god or another. Faith is a personal journey. Religion, especially dogmatic religion, tries to force that journey along specific roads, mapping out the destination and way-points along the road, and anything which contradicts or negates that dogma is pushed to the edges of the map and marked, "Here there be Dragons!"

[domaster]

as i said
And I think when you want to inquire and understand something, ask specialists of this thing

& u keep reading & asking thos how hait religion
What you offering here is not a reference

& its not fair to do that for any...thing ...
if ur fair ask both sides

not evry one left Islam or any other religion its big mind or big Mind thinker there is how thay can not leave there old life even for god

well if ur fair see that 111111111 (http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-god-religion-theology.htm) 2222222 (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/e/einstein-god.htm)

& u must read the 2sc link

one last thing stop talking about humanbeing as they are perfect & so smart


now let's talk about religion
religion

For as long as that religions was the law

The system of civilized communities
For as long as the brake to the whims of animal
And criminal instincts
And according to my vision of the subject -Islam built the one of the most beautiful civilization and more sophisticated
We're still reaping some of the fruit till to day
Civilization edited by contemporary science of the darkness of ignorance, witchcraft and sorcery

First words of God revealed in the Koran
"READ"
And as long as the Messenger of Allah, Mohammad urged us on science and learning share it with others

They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
(33) It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.
(33-32 versses 9 chapter)
in this versses god talk about thos who belive in god but they keep Denying for a reason or nother

[Thorne]

as i said
And I think when you want to inquire and understand something, ask specialists of this thing
I agree. And who better to ask about Islam and apostasy, for example, then those who have left Islam?


& u keep reading & asking thos how hait religion
What you offering here is not a reference
Are you trying to say that those who hate religion cannot be experts in it? Even when most of them were raised in religious homes, and steeped in religion for years? So by your standards, the only one's I can ask about the evils of religion are those religious "experts" who don't believe that religion is evil. Strange restriction. It's like telling me I can't ask astronomers about the stars, but can only trust the astrologers.


if ur fair ask both sides
I have seen both sides. And I have chosen my side.


& u must read the 2sc link
The first link seems to say that Einstein did NOT believe in God, at least in the God of Christianity, Islam or Judaism. Not sure what you're trying to say about that.
The second link I've seen before, and it's a hoax. Read the Snopes expose (http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp) written almost 4 years ago.


one last thing stop talking about humanbeing as they are perfect & so smart
LOL! I've never claimed that. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I'm not interested in trading quotes from the Quran, or the Bible, with you. I'll admit that your knowledge of the Quran is far greater than mine. That does nothing to prove that anything in the book is true, however. Show me evidence which does not originate in a religious book. Give me examples of the extensive testing which has been done to prove that the Quran, or the Bible, is the inerrant word of God. And, since there are many contradictions between them, show me evidence that your word of God is truer than their word of God.

[domaster]

I agree. And who better to ask about Islam and apostasy, for example, then those who have left Islam?


I have seen both sides. And I have chosen my side.


I'm not interested in trading quotes from the Quran, or the Bible, with you. I'll admit that your knowledge of the Quran is far greater than mine. That does nothing to prove that anything in the book is true, however. Show me evidence which does not originate in a religious book. Give me examples of the extensive testing which has been done to prove that the Quran, or the Bible, is the inerrant word of God. And, since there are many contradictions between them, show me evidence that your word of God is truer than their word of God.

I dare you to ask who spent his life in the service of Islam
if you're looking for evidence ask the Scientists Religion

there it is , you have said u take you (side)
This explains a lot of things
Why you are here not by chance
i think This is your job
I am not prepared to prove anything to those who came previously closed mind
And fight against the entire purpose of religion and not a discussion

The contradiction existing between the Books
Does not come from God, but from humans
All the prophets who were sent by God
Sent them to spread one message starting from Adam, to the last Prophets Muhammad peace be upon him

God did not send a prophet
Until the people distort and change the god words of and the provisions

That came to Muhammad peace be upon him
The last prophet sent to all people

The contradiction existing Books
Does not come from God, but we humans came from
All the prophets who were sent by God
Sent them to spread one message starting from Adam, but Seal of the Prophets Muhammad peace be upon him

And God has sent a provisions Special to evry Nation
Dedicated to them according to their ideology or their time
Until came Muhammad peace be upon him The last prophet he was sent to all people
with perfect book for evryone & evryage

[Thorne]

I dare you to ask who spent his life in the service of Islam
if you're looking for evidence ask the Scientists Religion
I have asked science for evidence. And science tells me there is no evidence, yet. Maybe there can be, though personally I doubt it. But in all the years that mankind has been worshiping gods, there has never been any evidence that those gods exist. Until there IS evidence, I can find no reason to believe that there are gods.


i think This is your job
No, it's more of a hobby.


I am not prepared to prove anything to those who came previously closed mind
My mind is not closed! If you can provide the evidence I am perfectly willing to look at it. And if it credible, and testable, then I would be willing to reconsider my position. All I ask for is the evidence.


And fight against the entire purpose of religion and not a discussion
Any discussion of religion, or politics, eventually seems to degrade into a fight. Probably because neither side is willing to give up their demands. The religious demand unquestioning faith. The scientist demands evidence and proof.


The contradiction existing between the Books
Does not come from God, but from humans
One big one I know of just off the top of my head! The Bible, and Christianity, recognizes Jesus as the Son of God. The Quran, and Islam, recognize him only as a prophet. A rather large contradiction, don't you think? Or are you saying that only Islam has it right?


All the prophets who were sent by God
Sent them to spread one message starting from Adam, but Seal of the Prophets Muhammad peace be upon him
As I scientist I can understand that you believe this, but how do you KNOW?


And God has sent a provisions Special to evry Nation
How do you KNOW?


Until came Muhammad peace be upon him The last prophet he was sent to all people
with perfect book for evryone & evryage
Ahh, I see. So you DO believe that your religion is the only true religion? And you say my mind is closed?

[leo9]

My word, I haven't seen a religious troll since the old newsgroup days, that takes me back. They used to be just Xians, but they still believe that telling you the Good News is bound to convert you.

[Thorne]

My word, I haven't seen a religious troll since the old newsgroup days, that takes me back. They used to be just Xians, but they still believe that telling you the Good News is bound to convert you.
Yeah, they think using quotes from a book I don't believe in, about a god I don't believe in, will change my mind. I've learned more from Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke than from Moses, Jesus or Mohammed.

But it can be fun when you can use their holy books against them. I'll need to familiarize myself more with the Quran, though, if I want to be more effective.

[denuseri]

It's not bad enough the thread has gotten totally derailed into yet another aethism bully pulpuit rant, thanks Thorne, (which is somehow ok cuase it was "fun" huh?)

...but we are resorting to name calling?



(I would love to know just who is being called a troll and what context your using the word Xian in leo? ) Cuase when I look through the rest of the thread the only troll like behavior I see seems to come from the side of the one claiming to believe in "not believing" in anything.


I see so long as the religion isnt pagan or aethism its fair game to use any amount of sophistry to attack it?

God forbid someone try to get together the Muslims and the Christians on any common ground, we cant have that now can we? Lets make sure we attack and belittle them every chance we get huh?

Is that aethisms way of paving a brighter future?

Making whatever divisions there are even deeper, trying to get people to focus on only the bad things, obfuscate, spin, and dogmatize everything.

You just cant stand to see people express their faith or seek common ground with others of different faiths?

Sounds to me like someone sure is saying its his way or the highway to me.

[Thorne]

It's not bad enough the thread has gotten totally derailed into yet another aethism bully pulpuit rant, thanks Thorne, (which is somehow ok cuase it was "fun" huh?)
Why is it OK for domaster to preach his beliefs, including quoting the Quran, but when I do the same it's ranting?


I see so long as the religion isnt pagan or aethism its fair game to use any amount of sophistry to attack it?
What sophistry?


God forbid someone try to get together the Muslims and the Christians on any common ground, we cant have that now can we? Lets make sure we attack and belittle them every chance we get huh?
I treat the Christians and Muslims equally! Isn't that common ground?


Is that aethisms way of paving a brighter future?
Yes. A world without religion. Looks pretty bright to me.


You just cant stand to see people express their faith or seek common ground with others of different faiths?
Express their faith, no problem. Proselytize? Fine, as long as I can respond in kind.


Sounds to me like someone sure is saying its his way or the highway to me.
Not saying that at all.

Domaster came in here and was espousing his beliefs. Great. I don't have a problem with that. But I have the same right to point out where I think his beliefs fail. Why do you have a problem with me doing that? Why is it all right for you to misrepresent my atheism ("one claiming to believe in "not believing" in anything"), but it's not okay for me to point out that what someone believes in is unlikely or unproven?

As for showing respect for religions, I can't think of even one good reason to do so. Why should I respect a religion whose leaders protect child molesters? Why should I respect a religion whose leaders treat rape victims as criminals? Why should I respect a religion whose believers think that a good time in heaven will be looking down on all those souls suffering in hell, and laughing at them? Go ahead! Give me a really good reason to respect religious beliefs.

And for the record, I didn't call anyone a troll, though I can understand why leo9 did. To be fair, though, domaster has not done the typical troll action of tossing a lot of BS into the arena and ducking out to watch the fur fly. He's defended his beliefs admirably. True, he's trying to convince me by using his holy book instead of reason, which is somewhat troll-like, but that doesn't make him a troll.

[denuseri]

Why is it OK for domaster to preach his beliefs, including quoting the Quran, but when I do the same it's ranting?

Oh you preached your own beliefs in abundance allready though havent you. All he did initially was try to point out that Christians and Muslims have some shared beliefs that could work to help make peace between them and then, as ussually, you tunred it into a "no your beielfs are wrong and your an idiot for having them rant".


What sophistry?

Points up to well over half of your posts in the thread where you associate all believers with rapists, murderers, child molesters, believers in fairy tales, flying purple unicons and what not becuase they must be since they are not aethiests like you.

I treat the Christians and Muslims equally! Isn't that common ground?

In trying to belittle their faith when your own beliefs have no more or less wieght than theirs becuase the base premise of all is the same is the hieght of hipocracy.

Yes. A world without religion. Looks pretty bright to me.

And a world where everyone could be free to practice or not their religion or belief system or life philosophy, or lack therof in mutual respect and tolerance without being called an idiot becuase those beliefs differ wouldnt be brighter?




Express their faith, no problem. Proselytize? Fine, as long as I can respond in kind.

The proselytizing Ive seen so far has come ironically enough from the one claiming to not belive in anything, even when you so clearly do believe in what you believe in with as much zealotry and fundamentalism as the most ardhent of the "faithful". How silly is that, sounds like the pot calling the proverbial kettle black.


Not saying that at all.

Then why not let others believe in what they wish too without trying to attack them for their beliefs for a change?

You make it impossible to have a reasoned discussion of theocracies when over and over you keep trying to draw sophic analogies to attck all faiths other than aethism as being wrong continiusly through any thread that even mentions the word religion.

Domaster came in here and was espousing his beliefs. Great. I don't have a problem with that. But I have the same right to point out where I think his beliefs fail. Why do you have a problem with me doing that? Why is it all right for you to misrepresent my atheism ("one claiming to believe in "not believing" in anything"), but it's not okay for me to point out that what someone believes in is unlikely or unproven?

Oh is that what youve been doing, Im sorry love I couldnt get around how youve been misrepresenting not only your stated ideals and those of all others who dont share your "way of thinking" (which btw is the exact same as saying "your beliefs").

No I dont have a problem with you expressing your beliefs, just the sophistic manner in which you choose to cloak it as an attack against anything that differs from your own, which is the hieght of hipocracy imho, especially when it comes from someone claiming to expouse the values of science and reason over baseless asumption.

It would be nice to have a discussion about religion just once without all the anti-religion dogma getting in the way.

Instead of allways attacking why not listen to what the other person is saying about their own beliefs just once and take them at face value?

As for showing respect for religions, I can't think of even one good reason to do so. No apparently you dont and yet you ask for that same respect be shown to you...how ironic and hypocritical. Why should I respect a religion whose leaders protect child molesters? Why should I respect a religion whose leaders treat rape victims as criminals? Why should I respect a religion whose believers think that a good time in heaven will be looking down on all those souls suffering in hell, and laughing at them? Go ahead! Give me a really good reason to respect religious beliefs.

Just as many bad things have ben done in the name of aethism so I dont see any difference there.

Respect doesnt require you to convert or anything, just "tolerance".

The Founding Father's believed that all people should be mutually respected when it came to one's own beliefs, that why we got the whole seperation of church and state thing to begin with. Or to quote the wiccans, "and it harm not others, do as thou will."

And for the record, I didn't call anyone a troll, though I can understand why leo9 did. To be fair, though, domaster has not done the typical troll action (so how is it fair to call him a troll or troll like then?) of tossing a lot of BS into the arena and ducking out to watch the fur fly. He's defended his beliefs admirably. True, he's trying to convince me by using his holy book instead of reason, which is somewhat troll-like, but that doesn't make him a troll.

Troll-like? Really? And you seriously wonder why I call you out on this kind of stuff?

In any event I don't believe the topic of this thread is to discuss what aethism is or is not, nor to constantly refute what one believes about what someone's elses religion or philosophy as being false for whatever reason or insult it's adhereants intelligence.

People are going to believe what they wish anyways where as that is concerned.

"For the believer no proof is nessesary and for the unbeliever, no proof is possible anyways."

I dont believe the main message of Hinduism, Judism, Buddism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai or Wicca is one of anything other than to love one another and help each other, to live together in peace and harmony. Yes its true that in the past and even today their are people who do bad things in the name of their religion and I am all for getting people to stop doing such things, to be tollerent of one another beliefs.

Some like aethiests may feel like they don't need to have faith in an outside force to help them in that endeavor and thats perfectly fine. But they shouldn't be fundamentally insistant on that which they cannot prove eaither or going on some kind of sophist filled rampage to see all religion abolished and become exactly like the very thing they espouse to be against.

You say the aethism practiced by the Communists wasnt behind all the atrocities committed against people of all faiths, fine, I say religions/belief systems in general all apply equally where as that is conserned. Evil men, using dogma to their own ends period. You wish to punnish the weapon used as opposed to the one wielding it I see. In that case we should abolish science too since it certiantly comes up with all manner of evil things to use against each other too.


Since no one can prove themselves right on any of it, doesnt it make more sence to just let people believe what they wish and punnish what society considers by law to be actions instead of ideas?

Seriously, isnt it ok for people to think what they wish to think so long as they are not hurting others?

All I am asking is why can't we all stop nitpicking about the specifics as we move into the future?

Focus on common ground as opposed to making things worse by fostering divisions?

Or will you do as you did earlier in the thread and all the others like it, and ignore reason and logic when it doesnt support the dogma of religion bashing?

Well, will you? I would love to see you actually answer ALL of my proposals with reason and logic and not skip them over like you ussually do and only pick at things to spin them?

<< gets in a philosophical socratic pose.

Come on lets see what you really got, no more hiding behind side issues Thorne.

Eaither you want to really practice what you preach or your not interessted in logic, reason, and science so much as dogma and rehtoric that suits the purpose of attacking all religions for that sake alone.

Which is it I wonder?

[Thorne]

Well, will you? I would love to see you actually answer ALL of my proposals with reason and logic and not skip them over like you ussually do and only pick at things to spin them?
I'll give it a shot, then. And in all seriousness.
[QUOTE]"For the believer no proof is nessesary and for the unbeliever, no proof is possible anyways."
Very right, for part 1. Very wrong for part 2. I've already stated that there are proofs of gods which could change my mind. I'm still waiting to see any of them.


I dont believe the main message of Hinduism, Judism, Buddism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai or Wicca is one of anything other than to love one another and help each other, to live together in peace and harmony. Yes its true that in the past and even today their are people who do bad things in the name of their religion and I am all for getting people to stop doing such things, to be tollerent of one another beliefs.
These may be the main messages of the religion, but it is NOT necessarily what is practiced by the hierarchies of those faiths. How many Christian religion, are willing to show tolerance for Gays, for example? Or Islam, or Judaism. I'm not familiar with the others you name, which is perhaps a failing of mine, but those religions are not trying to ram their beliefs down my throat through changing the laws.


Some like aethiests may feel like they don't need to have faith in an outside force to help them in that endeavor and thats perfectly fine. But they shouldn't be fundamentally insistant on that which they cannot prove eaither or going on some kind of sophist filled rampage to see all religion abolished and become exactly like the very thing they espouse to be against.
And once more I state that, as an atheist, I am not the one making the claim that gods exist. I am simply asking for proof, and in the absence of that proof I do not see any point in believing. And, while I think the world would be better off without religion, I am not trying to destroy religion, or faith. I am simply asking theists to actually think about what they believe in, and learn how those beliefs have changed over the years. See, for example, how their supposedly inerrant Bible was cobbled together from pieces of stories, which were based on even earlier stories. I do NOT say, "Do not believe!" I simply say, "Understand what you believe." Too many do not.


You say the aethism practiced by the Communists wasnt behind all the atrocities committed against people of all faiths, fine, I say religions/belief systems in general all apply equally where as that is conserned. Evil men, using dogma to their own ends period. You wish to punnish the weapon used as opposed to the one wielding it I see. In that case we should abolish science too since it certiantly comes up with all manner of evil things to use against each other too.
There is no atheism to "practice". Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods. ANY gods. There's no dogma, no services, no sermons. And yes, I agree that most of the evils incurred by religions are performed by evil men (and women) who twist the true message to meet their own ends. But it is the fear of the common theists which allows them to do this. When the leaders' words are law, who will gainsay them? How many Roman Catholics have risen up in righteous anger to condemn the Churches lack of response to the pedophile scandals? Damned few, as far as I can tell! And why haven't they? Because their leaders have told them, "This is Church business. Just sit down, say your prayers, and keep putting money into those collection plates." The problems in Islam (as I see them, at least) are very similar. The people don't condemn their leaders for the atrocities they espouse, thereby giving tacit approval to them.


Since no one can prove themselves right on any of it, doesnt it make more sence to just let people believe what they wish and punnish what society considers by law to be actions instead of ideas?
Absolutely! But how can you do that when the churches, the religions, control the law? Where is the justice for a rape victim in Iran? Islam controls the law, and Islam hates women even more than Catholics do. Where is the justice for the children who die of simple, easily curable diseases because their parents decided that praying was better than medicine? By all means, believe what you wish, but when your beliefs impinge upon my life you've gone too far.


Seriously, isnt it ok for people to think what they wish to think so long as they are not hurting others?
Go here (http://whatstheharm.net/)to see whether they are hurting others.


All I am asking is why can't we all stop nitpicking about the specifics as we move into the future?
If they were only nits we were picking I could agree. But there are people dying because of religious beliefs. Ask the wives and families of doctors and nurses who happen to work in abortion clinics if these are nits. Ask the gays being executed in Uganda if these are only minor differences or opinion. Whether these abominations are caused directly or indirectly by religious belief is irrelevant. Religion gives them their impetus, and in many cases protects the perpetrators.


Come on lets see what you really got, no more hiding behind side issues Thorne.
Well, that's what I've got. How did I do? And nothing I've said here is any different than what I've said in the past.

People can believe whatever they want. I've never said that this should change. What does need to change, though, is people allowing those who believe in the supernatural the same consideration as those who believe in facts and evidence. If someone stands before me, either literally or figuratively in an open forum, and claims that his god is the one true god, or that everyone should believe what he believes, I'm going to call him out on it. And when those beliefs are patently false, I'll say so. The man who claims the world is flat just because some holy book tells him so is no more deserving of respect than the man who believes that a crocodile can give birth to a duck. PROVE that the world is flat and I'll respect you.

[TantricSoul]

My friends and esteemed contributors to the forums,
So here we are, once again, the current subject isn’t even closely related to the thread title or what I believe the intention of the thread was . I agree with denu that this thread might have lead to a rather interesting conversation, yet instead has become the all too familiar cyclical and unchanging battle of words between faith and facts.
I also agree with Thorne that he has a right, like us all, to contribute his opinion or challenge others on their opinions. And having been on the opposing side of debates with him in the past, I know he has a “take no prisoners” approach.
So where to from here? Because I would like to see if we can make some space in these religious threads for some viewpoints and discussions other than the atheist/theist discussion. You both are heavy contributors here and I cut you both slack because of that fact, but cmon, thread after thread is ending up on the same topic.
I’m tempted to encourage you both to have it out, once and for all, in a single thread, in the hope that you can come to a place where you can respect each-others (and other contributors) viewpoints without feeling the need to turn every thread into this same discussion. Yet I am not confident that will work either. Denus’ faith is not likely to change Thornes’ mind, just as his facts won’t change her faith, so why? Why keep doing it over and over?
So I’ll ask you both nicely, please, if you must continue to rehash this, contain it to a thread or two, and leave some space for other topics and viewpoints.
Thank you,
Tantric

[denuseri]

Thank you for your wise moderation Tantric!

[domaster]

Originally Posted by Thorne

but it can be fun when you can use their holy books against them. I'll need to familiarize myself more with the Quran, though, if I want to be more effective.

well im Always waiting for you to use my holy book against me
all what do u did untill now its Misrepresentation verses to make it look bad
but still u can Always try

[Thorne]

Done.

[nerameshu]

Look, all I can say (as an Agnostic in his 20's) is that the only words in the Bible I believe to be "true to God" are the words spoken by Jesus Christ. The rest of the Bible? Well, before Jesus enters the scene, it was about sex and sacrificing lambs to get to Heaven. (Genesis, the first book, is God's Earth Creation To-Do list and the genealogy of the first tribe, descended from Adam and Eve.) After Jesus, the Bible is nothing more than musings of men on the word of God.

domaster, I have yet to read more than a few pages of the Qu'ran, and for that, I apologize. I cannot hold much of a first-hand conversation with you, because I'm not well versed in the Holy Book. (Although, I can speak a little Arabic, and I would love to here the Qu'ran read by a native speaker.) However, if I may suggest it, could you, perhaps, read the words spoken only by Mohammed, followed by the words spoken only by Jesus in the Bible, and see what you think? Again, if I may suggest it. I'm not trying to sway you to one side or the other.

Final notes: I wasn't raised in a religious house-hold. I see flaws in every system of belief, including, and especially, Atheism. However, I can, and will, respect all peoples' beliefs, as your beliefs are your right. But when talking about a religion, philosophy, or life-path, look not at the hateful people around you. Look to the message of that system's main human.

Also, being raised in the Bible Belt, I do not know many Christians who would love too many people at all. In fact, most of them hate me, through and through. But the few Muslims I have talked to are not only the most respectful people I know, but they have promised to go out of their way just to teach me about Islam, should I ask them to.

[Thorne]

Look, all I can say (as an Agnostic in his 20's) is that the only words in the Bible I believe to be "true to God" are the words spoken by Jesus Christ.
NONE of the Gospels are contemporary accounts of Jesus. ALL were written long after his death, and probably not by his disciples. There is enough contradiction between the four gospels to raise suspicions of all of them. There is certainly no historical evidence outside of the bible that Jesus (as depicted in the gospels) even existed. So how can his "words" be "true to God"?


I see flaws in every system of belief, including, and especially, Atheism.
This one drives me nuts! Atheism is NOT a system of belief. It is a LACK of belief in gods. It's that simple. A rather bad analogy (but the only one I can come up with at the moment) is that Atheism is a belief like NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Do atheists have flaws? Of course they do! I know I do! But those flaws are NOT necessarily related to their lack of belief in supernatural beings.

[thir]

And it's all based on "revelations" from an angel? If someone today tried to make that claim they would be immediately placed into an institution! (Or maybe not! The claims made by Scientologists are even more fantastical, even more insane, and they've managed to stay out of the asylums.)


You have an interesting point here. In a religious society that believes in angels, you'll still get put away for thinking you saw some. Why is that?

However, all the evangelists who claim they speak for God, and therefore must have talked to him, are believed.

Ordinary people who think the same thing are put away. Why?

[thir]

Here in the US I can see the Christians mounting stronger and stronger attacks upon our government and education systems, trying to infiltrate their beliefs into everyday life for everyone.


Hasn't that slowed down some under Obama? I thought it was Bush feeding a lot of this.



While professing tolerance they mount verbal and physical attacks against non-Christians and atheists.


Well, the verbal ones are just freedom of speech.

[thir]

With the arguable exception of Stalinist Russia, I can't think of an example of atheist persecutions.

China? South Africa? Slavery? Racism?

[thir]

Focus on common ground as opposed to making things worse by fostering divisions?[/QUOTE]

Yes - we simply have to.

[thir]

Just got to Tantric's post. Sorry, you are right.

[Thorne]

However, all the evangelists who claim they speak for God, and therefore must have talked to him, are believed.

Ordinary people who think the same thing are put away. Why?
My guess would be that the evangelists don't like it! After all, if just ANYONE can speak for God, where's the incentive to give all your money to the REALLY slick operators?

[Thorne]

Well, the verbal ones are just freedom of speech.
Only if they are Christians. I'd love to see what a judge would say if it were Muslims saying those things which the Westboro clowns vomit out. Or atheists. Bet it wouldn't be a freedom of speech issue then.

[Thorne]

China? South Africa? Slavery? Racism?
Were any of these done to promote the cause of atheism?

Yes, bad things can be done by anyone, atheists included. But I don't know of any atrocities which were committed in the name of atheism. History is littered with examples of atrocities committed in the name of religions, on the other hand. And many of those atrocities were condoned, if not instigated, by the leaders of those religions.

[denuseri]

NONE of the Gospels are contemporary accounts of Jesus. ALL were written long after his death, and probably not by his disciples. There is enough contradiction between the four gospels to raise suspicions of all of them. There is certainly no historical evidence outside of the bible that Jesus (as depicted in the gospels) even existed. So how can his "words" be "true to God"?


This one drives me nuts! Atheism is NOT a system of belief. It is a LACK of belief in gods. It's that simple. A rather bad analogy (but the only one I can come up with at the moment) is that Atheism is a belief like NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Do atheists have flaws? Of course they do! I know I do! But those flaws are NOT necessarily related to their lack of belief in supernatural beings.

LMAO

It's not the aethiests that are nessesarally so flawed Thorne, but the idea of aethism itself.

[denuseri]

You have an interesting point here. In a religious society that believes in angels, you'll still get put away for thinking you saw some. Why is that?

Blinks, I just watched Roma Downey touch someone the other day and Im not in the looney bin.

Seriously? An admission of faith or a claim of seeing an angel in and of itself has to my knowledge never resulted in any one being put away in the modern era where one has to be diagnosed with an actual mental ilness first.

However, all the evangelists who claim they speak for God, and therefore must have talked to him, are believed.

Imho the televangelists are in it for the money, Ive never trusted their lot.

Ordinary people who think the same thing are put away. Why?

I know lots and lots of people who express a belief in angels, ghosts and what have you, and not a one of them is in any danger of being dragged off to the mental ward.

[denuseri]

Hasn't that slowed down some under Obama? I thought it was Bush feeding a lot of this.

If anything its the other way around from what he is presenting from what Ive seen over here.



Well, the verbal ones are just freedom of speech.

Smh, I also havent seen any aethiests being attacked.

[denuseri]

Were any of these done to promote the cause of atheism?

Yes, bad things can be done by anyone, atheists included. But I don't know of any atrocities which were committed in the name of atheism. History is littered with examples of atrocities committed in the name of religions, on the other hand. And many of those atrocities were condoned, if not instigated, by the leaders of those religions.

Here we go again huh?

Read up on the Communists and get back to us on that one, it was their idea to have state funded, state promoted, religious persecution. Which all the more just proves my point made way back before, about how its not the religions doing the bad stuff...its bad people doing bad stuff and misussing the "ideas" presented in any given philosophy, religion, creedo, etc.

<< goes to check the thread's topic, comes back, rme.

So whats all that got to do with Islam and Chiristianity having a chance to get along?

Or are you back to your same ole agenda of creating division so common ground cant be talked about between "theists".

[denuseri]

Inquiry: I understand that Christianity and Islam can never co-exist in peace with each other because of their extreme dogmas.

Is this true?

Response: From the perspective of both Islam and Christianity, this statement is not true.

In fact, from the very beginning Christianity has co-existed peacefully with other religions, including religions that opposed it.

For example, the leaders of the Jewish religion considered the truth claims of Christianity blasphemous; and, as a result, the leaders attempted to kill those who followed it whenever they could. Saul of Tarsus (see Acts 9) persecuted Christians. But the Christians did not therefore view it as their duty to revenge their persecutors. Rather, Christians are instructed by Holy Scripture to "live at peace with all men" (Romans 12:18, see also Hebrews 12:14), including those with whom we disagree.

Its part of that whole "tiruning the other cheek" thing.

Attempts to execute wrath upon others are totally contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

(Sadly, it must be acknowledged that not all Christians have truly followed the teachings of the Bible in this respect.)

And when they do commit acts of agression and violence against one another, they are in fact breaking the tennents of their respected faiths.

Technically that makes them automatically excomunicated from said religion by defualt in the eyes of some.


According to Dr. James. A McBean D.Th., MCC :

"Men lacking the will to understand other men, in time will became like the beasts, and the beasts ways of life, will be ours. When we consider how religion comes about, it is rather stupid, for people to hate each other over religious dogmas. Especially over something that base on other people dreams. The founder of our leading religions, said that they got a vision of God. Some said they had a vision or a dream of an angel giving them the revelation for the book that they have written. Moses said an angel has spoken to him. Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" said it was the angel name.Moronic Spoken to him. Mary said: it was an angel name. Gabriel spoken to her. Joseph the husband of Mary said: it was an angel told him in a dream about Jesus. Mohammed the founder of Islam said it was an angel name. Gabriel gives him the revelation to wrote the Koran. ...

All the foundation religions are base on a vision of an angels or a dream. It is up to each man to believe it or reject it.

If it makes you feel good to believe it, then go ahead and believe it. If it makes you feel better not to believe it, by all means go ahead and do not believe it."

Ok who is right?

Does it really matter? No. It only matters to each and every individual.

No one has the right to say their way is best any more than anyone else (yes that includes you agnostics and aethists out there too).

Science hasnt proven anything one way or the other. It may never be able to do so for all we know in the forceable future.

So why make such a fuss.

All these base faiths say basically the same message. :live in peace with one another, love thy nieghbor as yourself, and it harm not others do as thou wilt, etc etc

Why not let every one Tend to their own garden as Voltaire suggests in Candide?

All each and everyone of us that wishes to abide by what appears to be our collective idealized vision of God's message (or personalized philosophy of "reason"...no matter what our chosen path, would need to do is let go of all that angst and hate we hold inside ourselves for the other guy.

Just say, ok thats fine, you can believe or not in what you wish to, no skin off my nose, lets still be good brothers and sisters to each other and press on with life and leave the bad parts of ourselves behind.

How about it?

Anyone here want to give that a try?

I'm certiantly game.

[denuseri]

According to Deen-ul-Islam Da'wah:

Islam is the religion of all prophets. Muslims believe that all the prophets were sent to their respective peoples from God (Allah). They all had the same mission and message - guiding people to the right path.

The three revealed, monotheistic religions, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, go back to Abraham. The prophets of these religions were directly descended from him - Moses, Jesus and others from Isaac, but Muhammad from Isma'il. It was Prophet Abraham who had established the settlement which today is the city of Makkah, and with his son Isma'il built the Ka'bah, which Muslims all over the world face when they pray.

Christians and Jews hold a special place in Islam. They are called the People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab), since the original Torah and Gospel were also divinely revealed and they shared in the prophetic tradition. Islamic states have nearly always shown their religious minorities tolerance and respect and those communities flourished under Islamic rule. God says:
"...Those who believe (in the message of Islam), and the Jews, the Sabaeans, and the Christians - all those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and act righteously - no fear shall come upon them..." [5:69]
Setting up the Islamic state in Madinah, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) further warned:
"Whoever oppresses any Dhimmi (non-Muslim citizen of the Islamic state), I shall be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment."
In setting up the Islamic state, Prophet Muhammad made it inclusive of the Arabian Jews and Christians. Their persons, properties, churches and synagogues were protected, freedom of worship was guaranteed, and they controlled their own community affairs with their own civil and religious laws and courts. For most of the first century of the Islamic state, in fact, the majority of the citizens were Christians, enjoying peace and liberty such as they had not had even under Christian Rome or Byzantium.

The Jews, from the very beginning in Madinah, and later everywhere else, were lifted from the burden of being clients of individual Arab tribes to being citizens of the state, thus freeing them to focus on their Jewishness. When the Islamic state expanded outside Arabia the Jews of other lands were treated for the first time as liberated citizens. Judaism flourished as never before, with Jews even serving in Muslim armies and administrations while their culture bloomed in the arts, sciences, medicine and philosophy. This knowledge they transmitted to their brethren in the hostile climate of Christian Europe. Even Jewish mysticism originated under the influence of sufism and spread to northern Europe.
When Islam reached Persia the concept of People of the Book was extended to the Zoroastrians as well. Later, when the Muslims conquered parts of India and encountered Buddhists and Hindus, who appeared to worship idols, the question was referred to the ulema (council of scholars), who judged that even they could have the same protected status as the Jews and Christians, so long as they did not fight Islam and they paid the Jizyah tax.

[domaster]

thanx denuseri
that was very good ...
& one more thing
the islamic civilization was Built by arab - Jews - Christians & all who live in this civilization
& it was exampel of modern civilization Builted by Science & Peace & Law
well Generally...

[domaster]

i want share with u this beautiful thing
its kid from "iran" i think ... its not arabian
but the way how speak the arab Language & the way how he read the from the holly book Quran with the 3 "Novel correct"
i hope you watch that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHISO-NTUg0&feature=player_detailpage
& this the original reader from Egypt "abdou baset abdou elsamad"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4mx4-kfJLCU

[Thorne]

i hope you watch that
To what point? I would be willing to bet that few here understood either of these, and, while the boy in the first link did have a remarkable voice, there was nothing there which I found to be interesting. What is your reason for posting these?

(see, denuseri? I'm trying to be polite!)

[domaster]

To what point? I would be willing to bet that few here understood either of these, and, while the boy in the first link did have a remarkable voice, there was nothing there which I found to be interesting. What is your reason for posting these?

(see, denuseri? I'm trying to be polite!)

well thank you but like franch people say's
"chaqu'un son gou" and "les gout ca s'peut pas"
look for it your self

[Thorne]

well thank you but like franch people say's
"chaqu'un son gou" and "les gout ca s'peut pas"
look for it your self
Yes, and in English we say, "To each his own." I have no problem with that, but it still doesn't explain your reason for posting those clips. Was there a message there which I have missed? (I did take a message away from the first video, but I'm sure that you wouldn't want to hear it.) Or are you simply proselytizing, trying to spread your religion to the infidels? (In which case, in my opinion, all the gloves come off. Or, to use another thing we say in English, "No more Mr. Nice Guy!")

[domaster]

1)
i was talking to "denuseri" about the islamic civilization & Prosperity Which appeared on thos times with involvement all religions & all Races
to Built this civilization in the govern of islamic civilization
2)
my friend ur the one who trying so hard & so badly Fighting & Mockeing all the posts that talk about religions
3)
(Or, to use another thing we say in English, "No more Mr. Nice Guy!")
is that Threat or something ???
4)
i dont Waste my time with someone like you Because u believe on god but you Fighte it & you Denying that god exist
why ... ???? only god know
your prolme is not with the believer its between u & god
Solve the problem with your self & stop Attacking the others people

[domaster]

btw ur so Wrong about that and in English we say, "To each his own
keep looking Because u look so Lazy for some one try hard ;) :p

[Thorne]

btw ur so Wrong about that and in English we say, "To each his own
keep looking Because u look so Lazy for some one try hard ;) :p
Well let's see here. My handy-dandy Google Translator says that "chaqu'un son gou" means "each one his government", and "les gout ca s'peut pas" means "how can He not the taste". Neither of these seems to mean much to me in context with the religious theme of your posts, but "To each his own" does imply that every person is entitled to his own opinion, whether of tastes or governments, or even religion.

So please, tell me where I've gone wrong here.

[Thorne]

1)
i was talking to "denuseri" about the islamic civilization & Prosperity Which appeared on thos times with involvement all religions & all Races
to Built this civilization in the govern of islamic civilization
So those two clips were representative of Islamic Civilization? That's fine, that's all I asked. I had no clue to what they were supposed to represent. (However, I think you will find that the high achievements of Islamic civilization had more to do with science than with religion.)


3)
(Or, to use another thing we say in English, "No more Mr. Nice Guy!")
is that Threat or something ???
No threat intended, just a statement that proselytizing opens the gates for arguments against what you preach, that's all.


4)
i dont Waste my time with someone like you Because u believe on god but you Fighte it & you Denying that god exist
why ... ???? only god know
I do NOT deny that God exists, only that there is no evidence to show that he does. And even if there were evidence of gods, there is no evidence that YOUR god (or anyone elses god) is the one TRUE god.


your prolme is not with the believer its between u & god
Solve the problem with your self & stop Attacking the others people
Nope, there's no problem between me and any god. The problem exists solely between the believers and the non-believers.

I have stated repeatedly that if there were evidence of gods, any gods, good solid scientific evidence, then I would reverse my position and accept the existence of those gods. So let me ask you, what would convince you that your beliefs are wrong, and that Allah does NOT exist?

[TantricSoul]

see, denuseri? I'm trying to be polite!)

And I do appreciate that Thorne! :)

[domaster]

Well let's see here. My handy-dandy Google Translator says that "chaqu'un son gou" means "each one his government", and "les gout ca s'peut pas" means "how can He not the taste". Neither of these seems to mean much to me in context with the religious theme of your posts, but "To each his own" does imply that every person is entitled to his own opinion, whether of tastes or governments, or even religion.

So please, tell me where I've gone wrong here.

chaqu'un son gou = evry one have his own tast

les gout ca s'peut pas" mean = the tast its thing that Does not discussed

[domaster]

I have lots of friends Muslim & Christian & Godless or apostate … I don’t know how call
Like I said we live all together we eat together & have Dinner together & there is how get Marry
& we have talk about god & religion time to time
All this & more & I have never Noted what you call it ….
Fight or War Against non believers
& show your post to some of my friends “non believers”
They Laughter lot

denuseri this is for you sweety
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaBuxiw1-p0&feature=player_detailpage

[domaster]

well to be clear about god...
there is only one god & Mohammad & Jesus Christ & Moses & David & Solomon & Ibrahim & Isaac & Ismail & Noah & Adam ...
And all The Prophet : (Prayers and peace be upon them is god Messengers)
And there Religion its god Religion its only one Religion and it the same Religion & it was getting updated every time god send a prophet & its Islam mean "Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law"
And it was getting updated every time god send a prophet Because of the changes & Evolution
that was happening in human being life’s or every time the human being Stap away from god or from his
True Religion

You keep saying … which god I will Worship & which one it’s the real god
Guess what … “ it’s the Reason of your existence “ you are here to find the way to your Creator between all those Claims it’s the truth god using your Mind and Awareness and when you find your god you Finish your life Worshiping your god

“So as not to bother yourself looking for god let’s just stop believing on god it’s easier … :) ”

[Thorne]

well to be clear about god...
there is only one god ... And there Religion its god Religion its only one Religion and it the same Religion ...
I see. So your God is the "One True God"™ and your religion is the "One True Religion"™? You do realize that this same claim has been made, and is still being made, by every religion ever invented? And you have no more proof that you are right than any of those others had.


In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law"
And just how do you know what the will of God is? And how do you know what God's law is? By accepting the words of other men? You claim Muhammad was God's prophet, but what evidence do you have to show that claim to be true? Only his word! Or the word of other MEN who have a selfish interest in making people believe such nonsense.


And it was getting updated every time god send a prophet Because of the changes & Evolution
that was happening in human being life’s or every time the human being Stap away from god or from his
True Religion
But again, you are accepting those changes based solely on the word of people who CLAIM they are speaking for God. Why do you accept such claims without proof? Let's forget about proving or disproving the existence of God. Just prove that those men who say they are speaking for God are really what they say they are!


You keep saying … which god I will Worship & which one it’s the real god
Guess what … “ it’s the Reason of your existence “ you are here to find the way to your Creator between all those Claims it’s the truth god using your Mind and Awareness and when you find your god you Finish your life Worshiping your god
This is your opinion, not reality. In truth we are all here solely by accident, we all live our lives as best we can, and we all die. There is no evidence for any afterlife, there is no evidence for any gods, there is no evidence that any of your claims here have any validity at all except in your own mind. There is no justifiable excuse for spending your life praying to or worshiping a god who is probably not even there. And even if there were gods, any gods, why would anyone want to spend their time on their knees worshiping them?


“So as not to bother yourself looking for god let’s just stop believing on god it’s easier … :) ”
No, looking for God is easy. Just go into any church, or synagogue, or temple, or mosque, and ask the head shepherd. He'll tell you just how to find his God. Of course, he won't give you anything you can see, or hear, or touch, or taste, or feel. He'll give you rules and regulations galore, reasons why you have to listen to him rather than your own common sense, everything but God.

No, believe me, coming to the realization that religions have been lying for thousands of years, that there are no gods, no afterlife, no heaven or hell, these things are hard! It's the fear of what comes after death which attracts people to religion, because religious leaders claim to know exactly what happens after death. They can't tell you HOW they know, except that God revealed it to them, and you have to believe them because God commands you to believe them, and God told them THAT, too!

But you know what? There's a certain comfort in knowing that there is nothing after death. I no longer fear the afterlife, because I know it isn't there. I will be no worse off after I'm dead than I was before I was born. My memory will live on through my children and my grandchildren, hopefully with affection, just as the memories of my grandparents live on through me. And in some respects a part of me is living on within my children and grandchildren.

So if you want to spend your life listening to frightened old men who want nothing more than to control everyone around them, be my guest. But stop trying to justify it with the rantings of other frightened old men. Think for yourself, look at the real world without filtering it through your holy books. Look into the history of those books, how they were really created, and why. USE that mind you think God gave you.

[domaster]

Brief speech
You don’t believe on god prophet because they are man & you don’t trust man kind
Maybe!!! You are waiting god send you angels & this way you will believe in god
Well… my friend
Guess what… there was lots of people like you they said the same thing to the prophet as you.
The Quran with the original languish it’s a miracle from 14 Century until now no one can bring something like the Quran
& of course you don’t & you will not believe on it & you will not look on it or look for your god …
Why …
Oh you are waiting for a proof.
Keep waiting … who know … its will fall on you some day

[Thorne]

You don’t believe on god prophet because they are man & you don’t trust man kind
You are right. I don't trust people in general. That's because too many people will lie, cheat and steal to get what they want. And those who do it in the name of religion can often be the worst examples. No, I do not believe it when someone tells me he spoke with god, or that god spoke with him. If god wants to convince me, let him speak to ME directly. Maybe I can be a prophet, too?

The Quran with the original languish it’s a miracle from 14 Century until now no one can bring something like the Quran
& of course you don’t & you will not believe on it & you will not look on it or look for your god …
A miracle? It's a book! And it's not even a very good book. I've read a lot of books which were better written, made much more sense, and told a much more beautiful story, and they were generally better fiction than the Quran. And I have looked at the Quran, or at least English translations of it. I am not impressed.

[domaster]

well this is what i said...
you Confirm my words