Hardships of Being Atheist

[Switch_John]

This may not apply to some. And some religious people may have actually done some of the things I will mention in this post. Also, I am not saying atheists have it hard, or atheists endure suffering. Simply talking about instances in my and other atheists lives that have hurt us, made us sad and angry and shocked us.

In my life, after coming out as someone who did not believe in religion almost 4 years ago when I was 14 and finally coming out as an atheist when I was 17 last year I have, surprisingly, had to deal with being insulted, criticized, and damned by family and friends. In my freshman year of high school when I was 14 my grandfather had asked when my confirmation was to happen. This was one of the topics I had always wanted to avoid. My grandfather... he is an old style Sicilian Italian Catholic. In other words, strict on religion and faith. Also, the best reference I can pull is, He assumes the role of the Godfather as seen in the Godfather movies. I answered him "I honestly don't believe in religion and I have yet to find a reason as to why I should. I'm not atheist, yet, but I certainly do not believe in religion. I find that because religion is man made and man's 'account' for god it is false and corrupted the very moment it is made". Immediately I was overrun by questions and insinuations. He stated that I would go to hell, burn and suffer, for not believing in his God. He asked me to give a better answer than the pathetic one I had given. I honestly felt it was fairly good considering I had just started reading up on religions and researching. Needless to say I have not been on the best of terms with him. Every family event he always comes at me with such things as me burning in hell and whatnot. Some love my family shows me. Not to mention the endless people in my school who are always coming up to me trying to "cure" me and get me to believe what I think are lies. It honestly gets annoying. "Without God you will never see salvation, only damnation" "I'm only trying to save you from hell" "The reason you are feeling so depressed is because you have yet to accept Jesus Christ into your life". The constant mentions are enough to drive anyone made. How would they feel if I went up to them with "I am trying to save you from hypocrisy and false hope" "Your religion is based on child genocide and incest" "Your all forgiving father brutally kills anyone he wants" "If Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit and God are all one person does that mean when God planned for Jesus to die on the cross and then had the plan carried out with Jesus knowing how to make it happen make it suicide or assisted suicide"?

There were even issues in my middle school when I began to question religion. How does one explain to his parents that he received detention for repeatedly asking the religion teacher questions she couldn't answer about her own faith? Or asked things that simply made people wonder if something as horrid as a king commanding his troops to thrust his sword through every child's chest in the name of God was actually in the Bible? Talk about a hard afternoon...

So to the other atheists, what experiences have you had with coming out as an atheist?
And to the religious, think back. Have you ever done one of the things mentioned? If so, why?

[Thorne]

John, you have my sympathies. You have a tough road there, for sure. I think, if you go to college, you'll find a lot more support for your decision than criticism. (Unless you go to a Christian college, of course. That might be a mistake.)

For my part, I was in my mid to late 40's when I finally realized that I did not believe, and why. My family has never made an issue of it, and neither have I. They don't threaten me with eternal punishment and I don't try to deconvert them. My mother remains a believer, but her mind is going (Alzheimer's) and she isn't able to understand my position even if I were insensitive enough to bring it up. A recent conversation with my father, not about religion, leads me to believe that he has all but given up on religion, at least. The problems besetting the Catholic Church have driven him away and he's not interested in finding anything to take its place. I don't know if he's lost his faith, but he's certainly lost his religion. None of my brothers are religious, being either agnostic or leaning towards atheism. My sister, however, remains a believer, despite being excommunicated from the RCC for the audacity of divorcing her husband, who was NOT a Catholic to begin with. Her daughter, my niece, also remains a believer, but this past winter she asked me some questions about my lack of belief. denuseri won't believe it but I was polite and explained my position rationally, without assaulting her beliefs. I don't think it did any good, but it hasn't affected our familial relationships.

I haven't had any social repercussions from admitting my atheism, since I'm not a very social person. I did have one or two people I worked with walk away from me when I talked about atheism, fearing that they might get caught in their God's retaliation against me. And, to be fair, their God does have a reputation for overdoing it. Surprisingly, though, I've had no real trouble from the community. Which is surprising in this area.

My only advice, John, would be to try to avoid religion and politics when dealing with family. And when those religious kids at school try to "save" you, ask them to reconcile the discrepancies between the four Gospels. Chances are they aren't even aware of them.

[DowntownAmber]

There's a reason why religion and politics are considered crass topics to bring up in polite conversation.

The folks that are trying to "save" you, well, if they truly do believe that their religion is the stepping stone that end then why wouldn't they want to share that in whatever way they can? When you know something that you feel will help others, don't you typically say something? I wouldn't read much more into it than that.

Or, they may just be those types that need to feel that they are right, that other people know it, and that they are validated in their beliefs whatever those beliefs may be.

Same thing happens to the religious folks that are commented to by the atheists or by members of alternate religions.

Not everyone is always going to care for how you think or what you do, regardless of how you think or what you do. Thorne is right, you're going to occasionally have a rough go of it. Welcome to having an opinion. ;)

[lexora]

I remember when I told my mother I don't believe that was short. I said I don't believe in that stuff, she said why not, I said why should I there is nothing that happen in my life that says there is one. And well it ended there, if anyone asks me now I just say what I think. Glade to say that I do not push my ideas on others.

[thir]

I am sorry for your problems with people. I myself have not experienced them, as I come from a largely non-religious culture. But my guess would be that it is a lot easier in some places than others, and that this is therefore not a thing that will keep haunting you.

Personally I think you are well rid of a religion that throwns hell and damnation at you, rather than invite you to something good. I never understood the point of all that, and I feel deeply saddened for people if they have a god not because they want to, but because they are afraid not to. It must be very stressful.

[Switch_John]

yea. it is. Im glad that many people have had the luck of not experiencing that crap haha. I am thankful though because the ones who have stayed my friends and the family that doesn't care i found to be my actual family. From the bad comes the good.

[MMI]

I've never been insulted for being an atheist.

[denuseri]

Well Ive always tried to never insult anyone over their beliefs, atheist or otherwise.

When I did dabble with atheism I was never insulted in the lightest by anyone.

I cant however say the same for the rest of the time in which Ive been religious and insulted for it, seems like the shoe if anything is more on the other foot there in every regard.

[thir]

Well Ive always tried to never insult anyone over their beliefs, atheist or otherwise.

When I did dabble with atheism I was never insulted in the lightest by anyone.

I cant however say the same for the rest of the time in which Ive been religious and insulted for it, seems like the shoe if anything is more on the other foot there in every regard.


Sounds quite illogical to me, with all one hears about religion in other countries. In DK you are more likely to be insulted if religious, thanks to the cultural background of non-religion. Or rather, be seen as slightly weird.That is changing now, though, with so many religious people coming in.

In religious countries it is more logical that you are insulted for atheism than for following the norm.

However, in both cases I assume it all depends on where you are, exactly. What circles you move in.

[Thorne]

In religious countries it is more logical that you are insulted for atheism than for following the norm.
Insults don't bother me all that much. I think they reflect more on the person doing the insult than on the person being insulted. It's the other problems that happen that scare me. (Yeah, yeah, I hear you choking out there, denuseri.) Not getting hired for a job you can do well, just because you don't fall on your knees every day? (Happened to me, a long time ago.) Not being able to rent a room because you're not Baptist? (I told her I was born Catholic, even though I didn't consider myself such any more.) Other similar, minor torments. Or some not so minor, like John has endured from his family. The so-called tolerant religious aren't always quite so tolerant, it turns out.

[denuseri]

Oh the irony....Hey all I did was point out that the atheists can be just as intolerant Thorne.

Which is why I believe we should teach not only tolerance, but respect in every venue where as the beliefs of others are conserned.

[Thorne]

Which is why I believe we should teach not only tolerance, but respect in every venue where as the beliefs of others are conserned.
Tolerance of beliefs, to a point, I can agree with. Respect of the individual, absolutely. But respect for a person's beliefs? No, I can't go that far. Too many people believe in too many ridiculous things, and not just religious beliefs, for me to automatically bestow respect on them. I can respect their RIGHT to believe, but I don't have to respect WHAT they believe.

[denuseri]

Tolerance of beliefs, to a point, I can agree with. Respect of the individual, absolutely. But respect for a person's beliefs? No, I can't go that far. Too many people believe in too many ridiculous things, and not just religious beliefs, for me to automatically bestow respect on them. I can respect their RIGHT to believe, but I don't have to respect WHAT they believe.

And that my friend saddens me, especially coming from one such as you, its exactly why we still have: wars, intolerance, hatred, fundamentalist zealotry and every other manner of evil perpetrated, in which different beliefs are set in opposition to one another.

[Thorne]

And that my friend saddens me, especially coming from one such as you, its exactly why we still have: wars, intolerance, hatred, fundamentalist zealotry and every other manner of evil perpetrated, in which different beliefs are set in opposition to one another.
Exactly my point. The people who have those beliefs want respect for their own without giving respect for anyone else's beliefs. If people could learn to respect the person and ignore the superstitions we'd all be a lot better off. That does NOT mean remove religious belief, but don't give that belief any respect just because some believe it. Especially when the vast majority of "believers" only believe what they've been taught to believe since birth, and not because they know what the hell they're believing.

Amazingly, just after writing this I came across this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01J_d278mCc&feature=relmfu), which speaks to the same topic far more eloquently than I can. Enjoy!

[denuseri]

Well he uses sophistry much more subtly than you; I will give him that Throne, but then again, he is after all a well known professional sophist now isn't he..

"The key problem with Hari’s approach... and with his justification of it... is that he has deployed the Noble Truth defence – the idea that it is okay to play fast and loose with the facts, and with reality itself, just so long as you end up telling a “greater truth”. The notion that one can reach “the truth” by manipulating reality should be anathema to anyone who calls himself a journalist."

The main problem here being that his 'truth" is the only one that's acceptable to him or for others, even though he carefully tries to tie his propaganda with the concept of free speech, (which there is nothing wrong with btw, we should all be able to speak freely) and he condemns those who work against it, his claims to truly support secularism fail when he turns right around and calls for people to be forced to take a comparative religion class run by people with an obviously open atheist agenda which actually does nothing to promote secularism or tolerance.

Though now I see finally where you get a lot of your technique from.

You do realize I hope the irony: when you say that you respect someone but then you turn right around in the same breath and demonstrate how you really do not actually respect them at all by deriding what they believe in with open scorn and ridicule.

Human beings in general are often discriminatory creatures...its basically hardwired into us to a certain extent and helped us to survive at various points in our history, but its also a two sided sword that all too often leads to counter productive activities. Such intolerance for that which is different from ourselves is the real culprit here when people attack or insult each other for their beliefs or lack thereof...not "religion" in and of itself.





Without mutual respect for each other and each others beliefs you don't have an environment in which secularism can thrive let alone prevail.

The fact of the matter is (as discussed numerous times in too many threads) that none of these beliefs have any more validity in and of themselves than anyone else's and ergo by default are equally deserving of the same respect.

[Thorne]

The fact of the matter is (as discussed numerous times in too many threads) that none of these beliefs have any more validity in and of themselves than anyone else's and ergo by default are equally deserving of the same respect.
Which is exactly how I feel! I treat all unverifiable beliefs with the same degree of disrespect. They are all the same to me.

[denuseri]

So all of the sudden...atheism is no different to you now than oh say Islam?

[Thorne]

So all of the sudden...atheism is no different to you now than oh say Islam?
It's very different. Islam is a religion. Atheism is not.

[denuseri]

Atheism is still however an unverifiable belief. Which means it shouldn't deserve any greater respect than any other such belief in your book. See the hypocrisy yet?

[Thorne]

Atheism is still however an unverifiable belief. Which means it shouldn't deserve any greater respect than any other such belief in your book. See the hypocrisy yet?
Sorry, the only hypocrisy I see is you expecting me to accept to YOUR definition of atheism, as a belief, rather than MY definition, as a lack of belief. The Merriam-Webster online dictionary, definition 2a (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism)states that atheism is "a disbelief in the existence of deity".

Now, I'm sure you can find places which define it as a belief that there is no God. And for some people I'm sure that's true. The problem is that you keep trying to apply that definition to me, which is NOT true. There is a distinct difference in believing there is no God and in NOT believing in ANY gods. I'm not making a statement of faith ("I believe gods don't exist"), I'm making a statement of FACT ("I do NOT believe gods exist.) So I'll make you a deal. You don't try to redefine MY brand of atheism to suit your philosophy, and I won't try to redefine your faith to suit mine. I don't expect you to respect my non-belief, but I do ask you to accept my definition of that non-belief, at least as it applies to me, personally.

And for the record, anyone who categorically states that God does not exist IS stating a belief, and therefore is subject to just as much disrespect and ridicule as I would heap upon those who do believe in gods. I would ask such a person to prove his belief, just as I would ask a theist to prove his.

[denuseri]

The point is you do not expect to have to respect others's beliefs/ideas etc whatever you wish to call it but you demand all respect yours.

Using sophistry to illogically brand your "brand of atheism" as somehow something different than what it is to avoid having to admit to your hypocrisy requires one to change the rules of logic and the English language from what they are into some thing else. Its a common Atheist tactic, and its never worked because anyone over the age of 5 should be able to see right through it.

Saying that one does not believe in something, or saying that one disbelieves in something doesn't matter either way...such double talk doesn't change the actual facts, it may work on elementary school students but it doesn't hold much weight with adults.

Categorically your still saying the same thing...its your concept (ie atheism) vs theism and that concept is rooted in no more validity or provability than the other and hence deserving of the same respect, no matter which way you try to white wash it.

[Thorne]

The point is you do not expect to have to respect others's beliefs/ideas etc whatever you wish to call it but you demand all respect yours.
But I do NOT demand that anyone respect me OR my ideas! I only ask that they respect my right to speak about those ideas, just as I respect their right to do the same.


Using sophistry to illogically brand your "brand of atheism" as somehow something different than what it is to avoid having to admit to your hypocrisy requires one to change the rules of logic and the English language from what they are into some thing else.
I'm neither using sophistry nor changing the rules of logic. I'm stating the truth as I understand it: there is no valid evidence for the existence of gods, therefore I accept the idea that the gods probably do not exist. A simple statement.


Categorically your still saying the same thing...its your concept (ie atheism) vs theism and that concept is rooted in no more validity or provability than the other and hence deserving of the same respect, no matter which way you try to white wash it.
No, they are not comparable. The idea of atheism, AS IT APPLIES TO ME, is based on a perfectly valid, proven concept that there is no valid evidence for the existence of gods! Granted, there may be some atheists who claim that they do not believe in gods because their is no evidence. They make a statement of belief. But even there, the absolute LACK of evidence for gods provides SOME validation for the belief.

And this conversation rightfully belongs in the other thread, so I'll not continue it here.

To Switch John: congratulations on your escape from religious tyranny, and good luck in your ongoing search for the truth. Try not to engage in any arguments with theists unless you can first get them to admit that NOT believing in God does not require faith!

Sorry to have hijacked your thread.