9/11: It is time to move on

[thir]

Article from The Guardian, 7th of September 2011:

Memories are still vivid, but we need to declare the end of the 9/11 era

"We need to declare the end of the post-9/11 era.
Of course that will be impossible for those directly affected. No one expects – and no one would ask – those still grieving for a wife or son, a husband or sister, to put the September 11 attacks behind them.."

"But if grief and art will necessarily stay fixated, the realm of politics needs to move on. Osama bin Laden is dead; George Bush and Tony Blair are long gone from office. The two 9/11 wars, in Iraq and Afghanistan, are not over, but both now have a timetable for troops to come home. The phrase of the age – "the war on terror" – has been retired."

"Of course no wants to tempt fate with complacency. For that reason one aspect of the post-9/11 landscape will and should remain in place: vigilance. Police and intelligence agencies charged with protecting the public cannot revert to September 10 pretending that 9/11 – or, for that matter, Bali, Madrid and London – did not happen. The threat has changed, but it has not disappeared."

"Other aspects of the post-9/11 order persist too. Guantánamo Bay remains open, one of the early disappointments of the Obama presidency. The US "homeland security" apparatus created a decade ago is now well dug in. Given the tenacity of such bureaucracies – plenty of cold war American military structures linger to this day – few would bet on this newer one allowing itself to be mothballed."

"But it's the mindset that has to go. In those dazed days after the attacks, a new foreign policy doctrine was hastily assembled. It said that the world faced a single, overarching and paramount threat in the form of violent jihadism. Every other battle had to be subordinated to, or subsumed into, that one. And the call went beyond foreign policy. Culture, too, was to be enlisted in a clash of civilisations between Islamism and the west that would rank alongside the great 20th century struggles against communism and fascism."

"Such talk has been a constant of the 9/11 decade but its time has passed. For one thing, it's predicated on a mistake. The right way to regard the 2001 attacks was as a heinous and wicked crime – not a declaration of war. As Eliza Manningham-Buller, the former head of MI5, argued in her first Reith lecture calling it a war "legitimises the terrorists as warriors". It's exactly what al-Qaida wanted – feeding their fantasies of grandeur – and we gave it to them."

"Second, post-9/11 thinking has led to grave and lethal misjudgments. The greatest of these is agglomeration, lumping disparate and complex threats under one easy heading. The most notorious example will always be Iraq, casting that as part of the war on terror even though there was nothing to connect Saddam Hussein to Bin Laden."

"But it worked in subtler ways too. The director of Chatham House, Robin Niblett – who was in Washington when flight 77 struck the Pentagon – recalls how, during the cold war, regimes in Africa, Asia or Latin America won western backing as they fought off local, domestically motivated rebels simply by casting their opponents as part of "the global Communist foe". In the past decade, the west fell for the same trick all over again."

"Making the war against jihadism paramount has had other consequences too, still being felt. On post-9/11 logic, the shredding of civil liberties – condemned by Manningham-Buller as handing "victory to the terrorists" – was almost inevitable, for surely such freedoms had to take second place to the supreme threat. More serious has been the unleashing of a rampant Islamophobia – intense in Europe, recently lethal in Norway and rising in the US. That too is all but inevitable once Islamism is deemed the greatest peril faced by the human race."


"Again, this is not to say the dangers have receded. Would-be terrorists have seen the earth-shaking impact a spectacular attack can have – especially if it prompts a massive reaction that fuels the terrorists' cause, as the Iraq invasion did for al-Qaida. If one of the Arab revolutions fails, an al-Qaida offshoot could find purchase in that country. But vigilance is not the same as a careless, undiscriminating monomania.

Even those who were not there say the memory is so vivid, it feels like yesterday. But it was not yesterday. It was 10 years ago. We should mark the 9/11 anniversary with respect and care for those who died. But then we ought to close this sorry and bloody chapter – and bury the mentality it created."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/06/declare-end-september-11-era

The italics and underscore are mine.

I agree with this article wholeheartedly, and would in fact have put it much stronger.
Attacks like that, which have occured in other countries just as heinously if less spetacularly, have not resulted in wars or loss of personal freedoms, but in strengthening of intelligence and policework. Nor have they benefitted the criminals to such an extent, or distorted politics elsewhere - as far as I know, anyway.

I find it the of the utmost importance to stop the 'war-on-terror" slogan with all it entails, and to start to see the whole problem with fresh eyes. Concentrate on what the problem is - and isn't.

[Thorne]

I find it the of the utmost importance to stop the 'war-on-terror" slogan with all it entails, and to start to see the whole problem with fresh eyes. Concentrate on what the problem is - and isn't.
Couldn't agree more! It's time people realized that governments all over the world, but especially in the US, have used terrorist attacks as an excuse to restrict people's freedoms in the guise of making us safer. We are NOT safer! Not at all. But we are certainly less free than ten years ago. And that's a victory for the terrorists.

[ksst]

Agree totally.

[StrictMasterD]

We may wantto put 911 behind us, but we MUS LALWAYS remember those who Died
If you lost a Father, Mother etc do to any causes, I seriously doubt you would ever forgetthem, YES you can grief and mourn their loss, butthose who died in 911 the people, should never be forgotten

just my thought

[Silus]

I did 4 yrs USMC 6 yrs Army and been a Defense Contractor for 10 yrs....during that time I have made 6 trips to Iraq or Afghanistan. Personally I think we to stop showing the buildings falling over and over, its just breeding more hate. I am not saying forget or even forgive, but we need to move on. Its hard to move on when everywhere you look it seems there is something to remind us we are in a defensive mode from the chance we might...MIGHT get attacked.

[thir]

We may wantto put 911 behind us, but we MUS LALWAYS remember those who Died
If you lost a Father, Mother etc do to any causes, I seriously doubt you would ever forgetthem, YES you can grief and mourn their loss, butthose who died in 911 the people, should never be forgotten

just my thought

As said in the article, this is indeed considered a given.
But I can't help wondering, if I had lost someone, how would I react to these constant reminders? Often in the shape of entertainment films or the like?

I have lost people myself, as most have. You do not forget, you probably do not stop missing them. But you have to move on, and do so with them in your heart. Isn't it a good thing to be able to do that in your own time, at your own pace, without this - I do not quite know what to call it? This eternal interference? I just think I would find it very stressful myself - after a while, anyway.

[thir]

I did 4 yrs USMC 6 yrs Army and been a Defense Contractor for 10 yrs....during that time I have made 6 trips to Iraq or Afghanistan. Personally I think we to stop showing the buildings falling over and over, its just breeding more hate. I am not saying forget or even forgive, but we need to move on. Its hard to move on when everywhere you look it seems there is something to remind us we are in a defensive mode from the chance we might...MIGHT get attacked.

I think you have a point there - we are all living under laws that restrain our personal freedom, and which at times seem paranoid if not suspiciously profitable for political power mongers. As well as commercial interests, who keep coming up with new gadgets we absolutely must have at airports, etc.

The high-jacked planes the Palestinians took never had such an impact on air travel as 9/11 did. The Israelians checked your luggage thoroughly, and that was that.

[thir]

We are NOT safer! Not at all. But we are certainly less free than ten years ago. And that's a victory for the terrorists.

We are, IMO, considerably less safe.

And yes, you cannot defend democracy by restraining it!

[StrictMasterD]

As said in the article, this is indeed considered a given.
But I can't help wondering, if I had lost someone, how would I react to these constant reminders? Often in the shape of entertainment films or the like?

I have lost people myself, as most have. You do not forget, you probably do not stop missing them. But you have to move on, and do so with them in your heart. Isn't it a good thing to be able to do that in your own time, at your own pace, without this - I do not quite know what to call it? This eternal interference? I just think I would find it very stressful myself - after a while, anyway.

You can move on and still remember them, move on from the attack, but keep those lost in your heart

[thir]

You can move on and still remember them, move on from the attack, but keep those lost in your heart

yes, I hope so.

[StrictMasterD]

yes, I hope so.

As as close out today 9/11/11, i hope we can move on from this horrific event, but still keep those we lost in our hearts nad minds for years to come

[denuseri]

From various contributors to the AP around the world:

A mother in Malaysia greeted her dead son. People in Manila left roses for the victim who helped give them homes. And mourners in Tokyo stood before a piece of steel from ground zero, remembering the 23 bank employees who never made it out alive.

A decade after 9/11, the day that changed so much for so many people, the world's leaders and citizens paused to reflect Sunday. But there were also those — including a former Malaysian prime minister — who reiterated old claims that the U.S. government itself was behind the attacks.
From Sydney to Spain, formal ceremonies paid tribute to the nearly 3,000 who perished from more than 90 countries. And, in a reminder that threats remain, Swedish police said four people were arrested on suspicion of preparing a terror attack, as authorities in Washington and New York beefed up security in response to intelligence about possible plans for a car bomb attack.
For some people, the pain never stops. In Malaysia, Pathmawathy Navaratnam woke up Sunday in her suburban Kuala Lumpur home and did what she's done every day for the past decade: wish her son Vijayashanker Paramsothy "Good morning."
The 23-year-old financial analyst was killed in the attacks on New York.
"He is my sunshine. He has lived life to the fullest, but I can't accept that he is not here anymore," said Navaratnam. "I am still living, but I am dead inside."
In Manila, dozens of former shanty dwellers offered roses, balloons and prayers for another victim, American citizen Marie Rose Abad. The neighborhood used to be squalid and reeking of garbage. But in 2004, Abad's Filipino-American husband Rudy built 50 brightly colored homes, fulfilling his late wife's wish to help impoverished Filipinos. The village has since been named after her.
The Sept. 11 attacks spawned many conspiracy theories around the world, especially among Islamists who allege American or Israeli involvement.
Malaysia's former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, a vitriolic critic of the West, wrote on his blog that Arab Muslims are incapable of "planning and strategizing" such attacks. He added "it is not unthinkable" for former President George W. Bush to have lied about who was responsible.
In Pakistan, about 100 supporters of an Islamist political party staged anti-U.S. protests in Islamabad and Multan to mark the anniversary, holding up banners that repeated conspiracy theories. In Karachi, another 100 people protested the war in Afghanistan, launched in response to the attacks.
A few dozen demonstrators gathered outside the U.S. embassy in London, with one group setting fire to a depiction of a U.S. flag during a minute's silence held to mark the moment when the first hijacked airliner hit the World Trade Center. A small group of Muslims staged a counter-demonstration nearby.
But, little attention was paid to such events and comments on a day dominated by sorrow and pain of the memories.
In Japan, families gathered in Tokyo to pay their respects to the 23 Fuji Bank employees who never made it out of their World Trade Center office. A dozen of the workers who died were Japanese.
One by one, family members laid flowers in front of an enclosed glass case containing a small section of steel retrieved from ground Zero. zhey clasped their hands and bowed their heads. Some took pictures. Others simply stood in solemn silence. There were no tears, just reflection.
Sydney resident Rae Tompsett, 81, said she's never felt angry over the murder of her son Stephen Tompsett, 39, a computer engineer who was on the 106th floor of the World Trade Center's north tower when it was hit by a hijacked plane.
"No, not anger," she said. "Sorrow. Sorrow that the people who did this believed they were doing something good."
The retired school teacher and her husband Jack, 92, were among more than 1,000 people who packed Sydney's Roman Catholic cathedral St. Marys for a special multi-faith service.
"It's incredible that it is 10 years — it feels a bit like yesterday," Tompsett said.
At a commemoration at The Grosvenor Chapel in London, Courtney Cowart, who was nearly buried alive when the north tower of the World Trade Center collapsed, described her fears when she returned to the site for a church service five days later.
"Entering the heart of darkness, I was terrified. We were dwarfed by immense wreckage looming around us. It was a landscape drained of all color," she said.
Elsewhere in Europe, Pope Benedict XVI, at an outdoor Mass in Ancona, Italy, prayed for victims and urged the world to resist what he called the "temptation toward hatred" and instead work for solidarity, justice and peace.
In Paris, where an array of commemorations were planned, an association of French "friends" of America was preparing to unveil a temporary nine-story scaled-down replica of the Twin Towers bearing the victims' names across.
About 150 people, some waving American flags, turned out in Madrid for a commemorative planting of 10 American oak trees in Juan Carlos I park by crown Prince Felipe, his wife Princess Letizia, and other dignitaries.
Rome was preparing to light up the Colosseum late Sunday in a show of solidarity, and special commemorations were planned at Paris' Notre Dame Cathedral and London's St. Paul's Cathedral.
The Taliban marked the anniversary by vowing to keep fighting against U.S. forces in Afghanistan and saying they had no role in the Sept. 11 attacks.
"Each year, 9/11 reminds the Afghans of an event in which they had no role whatsoever," a statement e-mailed to news organizations said. "American colonialism shed the blood of tens of thousands of miserable and innocent Afghans."
Hours later, a Taliban suicide bomber in a large truck blew it up at the gate of a NATO combat outpost in eastern Afghanistan, killing two civilians and injuring 77 U.S. troops. None of the U.S. injuries were life-threatening, the Atlantic alliance said.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, at his Cabinet's weekly meeting on Sunday, said Islamist terrorism continued to threaten Israel and urged democracies to "act together against this blight."
"It is clear that this threat will be incomparably larger if radical Islamic forces or regimes acquire the ultimate weapon — weapons of mass destruction — and then terrorists will stand together and will be able to act under the nuclear umbrella of a radical regime, or even with tools of mass destruction given to them," Netanyahu said.
The U.S. and its allies invaded Afghanistan on Oct. 7, 2001, after the Taliban who then ruled the country refused to hand over the Sept. 11 mastermind Osama bin Laden. The al-Qaida leader was at the time living in Afghanistan, where the terror network retained training camps and planned attacks against the U.S. and other countries. Bin Laden was killed four months ago at his Pakistan hideout by U.S. forces.
"Now that Osama bin Laden is dead, my brother's soul will finally rest in peace," said Yambem Laba, whose younger brother Jupiter Yambem was among the victims.
Jupiter, an Indian, was a manager at the "Windows on the World" restaurant in the World Trade Center.
About 100 family members and close friends gathered at his ancestral home in the northeastern state of Manipur for prayers Sunday.

"Osama is dead but the threat from al-Qaida has not ended," Laba said.

"When one forgets history, one is then domed to repeat it."

[IAN 2411]

I am English and someone is already saying it is time to move on. Below is a rundown of London today. Read it and tell me again that it is time to move on.
.................................................

Embassy protesters burn US flag
Press Association – 5 hours ago

Protesters outside the US embassy in London have set fire to a US flag during a minute's silence held to mark the moment when the first hijacked airliner hit the World Trade Centre in New York 10 years ago.

A number of radical Islamic groups including Muslims Against Crusades (MAC) gathered outside the embassy on the tenth anniversary of the attacks.

The group of around 100 men shouted "USA terrorists" and brandished anti-American placards.

Earlier a group of English Defence League protesters, who had gathered in response to the demonstration, were ordered to move on to accommodate the MAC supporters.

The 60-strong group of EDL supporters briefly scuffled with police as they were forced away from their original location to a different part of Grosvenor Square.

Several members of the Muslim groups made anti-American speeches following the flag burning.

One said: "You will always face suffering, you will always face humiliation, unless you withdraw your troops from Muslim lands."

Another declared that America had been "defeated in Iraq and defeated in Afghanistan".
.......................................

And this is my Country and I feel ashamed that the UK laws allowed this to take place.

Be well IAN 2411

[Thorne]

And this is my Country and I feel ashamed that the UK laws allowed this to take place.

Be well IAN 2411
The only shame is that they moved the pro-American group out to accommodate the anti-American Muslims. In my book, the EDL was there first and should have been permitted to remain. As seems so prevalent around the world, political leaders are trembling in fear at the threat of Muslim violence against any who appear to disagree with their views. Looks like, as here in the US, it's time to vote these lawmakers out and try to replace them with people with stronger backbones.

[thir]

I am English and someone is already saying it is time to move on. Below is a rundown of London today. Read it and tell me again that it is time to move on.
.................................................

Embassy protesters burn US flag
Press Association – 5 hours ago

Protesters outside the US embassy in London have set fire to a US flag during a minute's silence held to mark the moment when the first hijacked airliner hit the World Trade Centre in New York 10 years ago.

A number of radical Islamic groups including Muslims Against Crusades (MAC) gathered outside the embassy on the tenth anniversary of the attacks.

The group of around 100 men shouted "USA terrorists" and brandished anti-American placards.

Earlier a group of English Defence League protesters, who had gathered in response to the demonstration, were ordered to move on to accommodate the MAC supporters.

The 60-strong group of EDL supporters briefly scuffled with police as they were forced away from their original location to a different part of Grosvenor Square.

Several members of the Muslim groups made anti-American speeches following the flag burning.

One said: "You will always face suffering, you will always face humiliation, unless you withdraw your troops from Muslim lands."

Another declared that America had been "defeated in Iraq and defeated in Afghanistan".
.......................................

And this is my Country and I feel ashamed that the UK laws allowed this to take place.

Be well IAN 2411

This somehow makes my point. The response to the attack has made such a lot more enemies and played into the hands of the then al quaida.

Without discussing why it all happened we will never move on.

[thir]

"When one forgets history, one is then domed to repeat it."

I am not sure where you are going with this. What is it that we must remember? That there was an attack, and many people died and their families grieve? I think that goes so completely without saying, for 9/11 and for all other terrorist attacks around the world. It is unspeakable, just as with other murders or other kinds of senseless violence.

But what is it that we must remember? To be always suspicious? To be ready to retaliate? To never discuss why this happens? To keep up the war on all muslims?

What I am trying to say is: the dust has settled. I just think it is time to learn from this.

[IAN 2411]

I am not sure where you are going with this. What is it that we must remember? That there was an attack, and many people died and their families grieve?
But what is it that we must remember? To keep up the war on all muslims?

What I am trying to say is: the dust has settled. I just think it is time to learn from this.
Tell the Jews that the blood is dry and the camps are empty and the holocaust stopped in 1945 and the dust has settled.

It was the Muslims that started the war of terror not the UK not the USA....but Muslims.

The dust will never settle all the time there is Allah and radical Muslims.

We have also learned not to trust anyone.

Be well IAN 2411

[denuseri]

"When one forgets history, one is then domed to repeat it."

I am not sure where you are going with this.

I'm saying that we shouldn't just brush it all under a rug and forget it happened.

What is it that we must remember? That there was an attack, and many people died and their families grieve? I think that goes so completely without saying, for 9/11 and for all other terrorist attacks around the world. It is unspeakable, just as with other murders or other kinds of senseless violence.

Well I think it goes without saying that we must remember all the different aspects at play in the event, from its cause to its effects. Good and bad.

But what is it that we must remember? To be always suspicious? To be ready to retaliate? To never discuss why this happens? To keep up the war on all muslims?

First off, there is a big difference between being complacent with our security and leaving ourselves open to attack, and being generally prepared and with being paranoid and suspicious of everyone and everything.

Secondly, Yes, one must be ready and able to retaliate in the event that one's preparedness doesn't present enough of a deterrent to those who would harm one or one's nation. The sharpest sword is of little use if one lacks the will to wield it.

Third, it goes without saying that the cause and possible effects must be delved into and discussed at length...and should have been prior to taking action as well as during and after, hindsight of course always provides better insight than that which is available at the time during any incident but is still a necessity if one doesn't wish to repeat past mistakes. Only ten years have elapsed, IMHO we are only now just finding out the consequences of actions taken on that day.

Fourth, the war's intent as I understand it was that it should never be conducted in any manner that at all suggests that its being waged against someone else s religious beliefs so much as to bring to justice those responsible for perpetrating terrorism against us and prevent future acts of such aggression against us and or our allies. It's my opinion that it's the media, (who thrives on any kind of opposition) and the ignorant (who act as drones for the manipulative hateful few with the means and an agenda) who wish to make it a war between cultures and religions.


What I am trying to say is: the dust has settled. I just think it is time to learn from this.

I agree 100%, in that we should be learning from it all.

[lucy]

It was the Muslims that started the war of terror not the UK not the USA....but Muslims.
Wrong. It was not the muslims, but a small little tiny group of fucked up fucktards among a huge population of muslims who are just as decent people as most other people on the planet.

And this was exactly the biggest mistake that has been made in the aftermath of 9/11, imho.

[StrictMasterD]

Wrong. It was not the muslims, but a small little tiny group of fucked up fucktards among a huge population of muslims who are just as decent people as most other people on the planet.

And this was exactly the biggest mistake that has been made in the aftermath of 9/11, imho.

I agree, there are a many bad Whites. Blacks, Hispanic ect as the are MUlims so not blame an entire Ethnicity for what a fringe group of Radicals did
Look back to Nazi Germany, I am sure 100% of the German population did not hated jews just those who served for HItler, i doubt and correct me ifI am wrong but I do not believe evey single German in German was Anti Semtic, but I could be wrong

[wicker]

Its not a case of moving on, if the enemy is still out there, and they are, its not an option. So long as fanatics target US and UK and other western nations, (lets not forget the attacks on Spain too) sticking your head in the sand and pretending that because the head of the snake got taken out, the body isnt going to bite, isnt an option. We still have to guard ourselves, and our families against Al Qaida and the Taliban, and perhaps dozens of other "splinter groups". There really is only one option, finish the fight, not only cut off the head but take out the heart too, tear down the entire structure and leave nothing. Experience shows, that destruction of the enemy and his will and means to fight is the only way to win a war. Anyway, thats it ive said my piece, and want nothing more than the world to come to its senses and just talk it all through, but thats not likely to happen, not because we the west wont talk but the fanatics on the other side wont.

[thir]

Wrong. It was not the muslims, but a small little tiny group of fucked up fucktards among a huge population of muslims who are just as decent people as most other people on the planet.

And this was exactly the biggest mistake that has been made in the aftermath of 9/11, imho.

I guess that is what I am driving at, trying not to step on toes or feelings.

[thir]

Had some trouble with the system, hope this is clear:

Denuseri:
"First off, there is a big difference between being complacent with our security and leaving ourselves open to attack, and being generally prepared and with being paranoid and suspicious of everyone and everything."


True. And IMO we are leaning into the paranoid side, + I suspect that commercial interests are exploiting this paranoia in among other areass security measures in airports and weapons. The last bright idea with everybody being x-rayed in the airports is so totally over the top for several reasons.

D:
"Secondly, Yes, one must be ready and able to retaliate in the event that one's preparedness doesn't present enough of a deterrent to those who would harm one or one's nation. The sharpest sword is of little use if one lacks the will to wield it."

The whole "retaliate" idea is, IMO, such a bit mistake!

1) As I see it, terrorism is a crime and should be treated like one. Meaning you deal with it by police and intelligence, because it is a crime, and because you cannot hit mosquitoes with a broad sword.

2) By making it a 'war', you upgrade your opponents to soldiers, not criminals, and legally they should then be under the Geneva convention. Which makes the Guatamamo base a matter of lawlessness and war crimes. (The base is a whole topic in itself.)

3) By attacking a whole country, you clear the ground for countless new terrorists.

4) The retaliation idea should have gone out with the dinosaurs - the world is too small and world peace too fragile for that kind of thinking.

5) It is not my intention to hurt anybody's feelings with these opinions.

D:
"Third, it goes without saying that the cause and possible effects must be delved into and discussed at length...and should have been prior to taking action as well as during and after,
"

Prior, yes!
And both my countries (UK and DK) were equally stupid and non-thinking!

D:
" hindsight of course always provides better insight than that which is available at the time during any incident but is still a necessity if one doesn't wish to repeat past mistakes. Only ten years have elapsed, IMHO we are only now just finding out the consequences of actions taken on that day."
"

I do not think you can say 'hindsight' when you start two wars. You have to think first and shoot afterwards - and again, that goes for all the countries who did not. Likwise, many people have had serious opinions on the whole thing for all 10 years. It is just that no one have been listening under Bush.
Or Blair. Or Fogh.

D:
"Fourth, the war's intent as I understand it was that it should never be conducted in any manner that at all suggests that its being waged against someone else s religious beliefs so much as to bring to justice those responsible for perpetrating terrorism against us"


Well, that war certainly meant a lot of grief for a lot of muslims - totally innocent people. Harrasment everywhere. Also harrasment of peole who oppose the war.

I wonder how many have died by now, how many civilians and innocent bystanders - one article said about 30.000.

You cannot wage a war and assume that you only hit the criminals, that is obvious.

D:
"and prevent future acts of such aggression against us and or our allies. "

As for that, the threat of terrorism is said to be mulitiplied now compared to before the war.


D:
"It's my opinion that it's the media, (who thrives on any kind of opposition)"

Sadly you have a very big point here! Though thankfully not all the media are that bad.

D:
"and the ignorant (who act as drones for the manipulative hateful few with the means and an agenda) who wish to make it a war between cultures and religions."

The scary thing is that it does not seem to be specially ignorant people who fall for the terrorist progaganda. It is all sorts of people: university students, normal workers, professional women with children...All the more reason to start looking into WHY these things happen. It is, IMO, too easy to simply say that they are religious fanatics - though the core of them must be, they are, after what is said, a minority.



I agree 100%, in that we should be learning from it all.

But are we? Who are looking into it - who are researching the phenomena of terrorism?

Too many interests in calling everyone you do not like 'terrorist', too many political and commercial interests here, too much muddling of the waters and keeping the pot boiling.

What is needed is unbiased (if such a thing is possible) research and political thinking.

[thir]

Tell the Jews that the blood is dry and the camps are empty and the holocaust stopped in 1945 and the dust has settled.


True - this can never be forgotten. I hope. But what is the conclusion? That we are on the toes for a war with Germany? That we are on the look out for fascist regimes? Hitler was elected, not forcing himself to power, and it has happened again. What is the lesson to be learned? And I do not mean this as a rhetorical question.



It was the Muslims that started the war of terror not the UK not the USA....but Muslims.


As was said, but needs saying again, no, not 'muslims', but fundamentalist maniacs.

And terrism is not a war, that is its whole point. If it were a war, there'd be rules. I think it important to make these distinctions.



The dust will never settle all the time there is Allah and radical Muslims.


There will always be radical (= fundamentalist) religious and political groups, and it needs cool heads to deal with them, or the dust will never settle. If they get us all running around shouting and acting on instinct, they win. If they manage to ruin our life-style, as is stiffling the lives and freedoms of normal people, they win. If we create even more hate that was originally there, they win!

If we become like them, they win.



We have also learned not to trust anyone.


Count me out of that 'we'. I will not live my life looking over my shoulder and being suspicious of every body - because then they have won!

[IAN 2411]

Count me out of that 'we'. I will not live my life looking over my shoulder and being suspicious of every body - because then they have won!

So what you are saying is that there is still a war with radical Muslims and terrorists, so where has the dust settled? I dont look over my shoulder but here in the UK we have been fighting terrorists in the form of the IRA, PLO..and Al Qaida for over a hundred years, so it pays to be careful. One small act of compacency by the internal security services and you get...9/11 USA and 7/7 UK.

Be well IAN 2411

[thir]

So what you are saying is that there is still a war with radical Muslims and terrorists, so where has the dust settled? I dont look over my shoulder but here in the UK we have been fighting terrorists in the form of the IRA, PLO..and Al Qaida for over a hundred years, so it pays to be careful. One small act of compacency by the internal security services and you get...9/11 USA and 7/7 UK.

Be well IAN 2411

I do not think you can have a system whereby there is never a risk of any act of terrorism.

[denuseri]

"First off, there is a big difference between being complacent with our security and leaving ourselves open to attack, and being generally prepared and with being paranoid and suspicious of everyone and everything."


True. And IMO we are leaning into the paranoid side, + I suspect that commercial interests are exploiting this paranoia in among other areass security measures in airports and weapons. The last bright idea with everybody being x-rayed in the airports is so totally over the top for several reasons.

I would rather have yto show up and hour early and be x-rayed then have things be ultra convient and get blown up or taken hostage etc.


"Secondly, Yes, one must be ready and able to retaliate in the event that one's preparedness doesn't present enough of a deterrent to those who would harm one or one's nation. The sharpest sword is of little use if one lacks the will to wield it."

The whole "retaliate" idea is, IMO, such a bit mistake!

And what instead...we should reward them for attacking us?



1) As I see it, terrorism is a crime and should be treated like one. Meaning you deal with it by police and intelligence, because it is a crime, and because you cannot hit mosquitoes with a broad sword.

When its perpetrated by a single individual or small group...perhaps, when its perpetrated by international organizations with national backing...it is indded war, a jyhad by their own declaration even. As for the spurious insect coorolation...tell that to Osama Bin Laden...oh thats right, his little mosiquito brains finally got blown out by some of our broad sword so he wont be responding now will he.

2) By making it a 'war', you upgrade your opponents to soldiers, not criminals, and legally they should then be under the Geneva convention. Which makes the Guatamamo base a matter of lawlessness and war crimes. (The base is a whole topic in itself.)

Our finally going after them with some of our military is hardly upgrading them...they didnt change status all of the sudden becuase we decide to root them out for reciprocity.

3) By attacking a whole country, you clear the ground for countless new terrorists.

In some regards we did, in others we got rid of them too, they can no longer feel safe in any event since we have taken the war to them.

4) The retaliation idea should have gone out with the dinosaurs - the world is too small and world peace too fragile for that kind of thinking.

Keep in mind ...the majority of the worlds powers that be supported our going in after them.

5) It is not my intention to hurt anybody's feelings with these opinions.

I too hope that I am not hurting you or anyone else with my own.


"Third, it goes without saying that the cause and possible effects must be delved into and discussed at length...and should have been prior to taking action as well as during and after,
"

Prior, yes!
And both my countries (UK and DK) were equally stupid and non-thinking!

I believe they had planned for many different contingencies in this regard actually. I may not personally like everything they have done or how things have turned out, but I do recognize they didnt just ask the magic 8 ball or flip a coin eaither. Funny thing is ...if previous administrations had more balls and did the right thing, 911 probebly would have never happened.


" hindsight of course always provides better insight than that which is available at the time during any incident but is still a necessity if one doesn't wish to repeat past mistakes. Only ten years have elapsed, IMHO we are only now just finding out the consequences of actions taken on that day."
"

I do not think you can say 'hindsight' when you start two wars. You have to think first and shoot afterwards - and again, that goes for all the countries who did not. Likwise, many people have had serious opinions on the whole thing for all 10 years. It is just that no one have been listening under Bush.
Or Blair. Or Fogh.

Or Obama or Brown...since both just keep following the play book left for them in office by their predesessor.


"Fourth, the war's intent as I understand it was that it should never be conducted in any manner that at all suggests that its being waged against someone else s religious beliefs so much as to bring to justice those responsible for perpetrating terrorism against us"


Well, that war certainly meant a lot of grief for a lot of muslims - totally innocent people. Harrasment everywhere. Also harrasment of peole who oppose the war.

Muslims alone are not the only agrieved here. We all are on all sides.

I wonder how many have died by now, how many civilians and innocent bystanders - one article said about 30.000.

Oh way way more than 30 thousand civilians have died.

You cannot wage a war and assume that you only hit the criminals, that is obvious.

No one is more aware of that than the solider's on the ground hon.


"and prevent future acts of such aggression against us and or our allies. "

As for that, the threat of terrorism is said to be mulitiplied now compared to before the war.

Then why has the number of attacks that reach our shores been radically reduced or eliminated long before they can come to futition?



"It's my opinion that it's the media, (who thrives on any kind of opposition)"

Sadly you have a very big point here! Though thankfully not all the media are that bad.

Nope...aside from state sponsered internal systems...mainly just the top 99% thats owned and opperated by only 5 international super corperations. The rest get close to zero airtime btw.


"and the ignorant (who act as drones for the manipulative hateful few with the means and an agenda) who wish to make it a war between cultures and religions."

The scary thing is that it does not seem to be specially ignorant people who fall for the terrorist progaganda. It is all sorts of people: university students, normal workers, professional women with children...All the more reason to start looking into WHY these things happen. It is, IMO, too easy to simply say that they are religious fanatics - though the core of them must be, they are, after what is said, a minority.

Im not sure if your refering to the people of the effected areas who get duped into or choose to become terrorists due to the propoganda used by said terrorists upon them...or if your refering to our own people who get war hawkish and discriminatory against muslims in general out of ignorance or spite due to the propoganda of our media and those with hateful agendas like the KKK etc? Though in my opinion both are equally ignorant.




But are we? Who are looking into it - who are researching the phenomena of terrorism?

Too many interests in calling everyone you do not like 'terrorist', too many political and commercial interests here, too much muddling of the waters and keeping the pot boiling.

What is needed is unbiased (if such a thing is possible) research and political thinking.[/QUOTE]

Yes its possible to be unbiased, and yes more people than you will ever see on televison are indeed studying the subject with as much scientific objectivity as possible.

[DuncanONeil]

Sorry I can not quite agree with the sentiment which seems to be pack this off into the dustbin & forget about it.

That would just be wrong. But maybe such a sentiment is appropriate for those that were not attacked in this despicable manner.