What is so appealing about 'bratty subs'? Is it so bad not to be one?

[this.is.me]

So I had been told by a dom who I was somewhat serious with (and am no longer talking to) that the reason he liked this other girl better is because she so bratty and its just so much fun to play with her. I don't get any kind of thrill from trying to 'run away' during a scene or back talking, I am pretty much the opposite of bratty (whatever the word for that is). While I am still a bit upset to see the two of them together I have come to terms that if thats what he was looking for we had no business being together because I will never be that girl he wants.

However today I was playing with someone new and they mentioned how they are used to playing with girls that are a lot more mouthy than me. In fact usually most the scene is based around getting the girl to shut up, because of that he was having a lot of trouble telling when to end things. We had fun and all, plan to play again, but I have a feeling he was disappointed I didn't really 'put up a fight'.

I don't understand the appeal, and it seems like a majority of the people I know (doms and subs) play that way. I personally don't think you can do BDSM 'wrong', aside from people just being stupidly dangerous. It seems lately like I am doing it wrong though. Kind of like I am failing at doing what the person topping me wants; by doing what they ask me to do. It is getting really frustrating. Can someone please explain this to me? It does not feel good to be told that your just not that much fun to play.

[leena]

Slides in to answer a question posed to Dom's....which might be considered bratty? Not sure. Anyway...you hit the nail on the head, there is no "wrong" it sounds like you are just meeting with people who are looking for a different challenge and way to fulfill themselves than you are! I know several Dom's who have said they like a sub with a little fight. Both so that they know she's not just rolling over and subbing, and also so they have a chance to prove they can handle her. I know several Doms who will not tolerate brat in the least and think it disrespectful. BDSM is not so different from vanilla relationships in that everyone is looking for something different. I'm sure you have friends where you think, "I wouldn't date, marry or give that guy the time of day" but he appears to make her happy. The same is true in BDSM. You have the qualities that will make a Dom very happy, it's just a matter of finding the right one.

[Ozme52]

There are many of us, dominants, who abhor brats. I for one, far prefer obedient adoration. I don't want to break you... well, not in the sense of breaking your spirit. I want to see you suffer to please me. To watch you struggle as you deny yourself your orgasm until it pleases me to let you release or until I force you to cum before I "allow" it. I want to punish you, not for being a brat but for failing to meet my exacting standards... and when you do, I'll swat you twice as hard and twice as much as your reward.

"Poor girl can't even keep track of two spank-counts.... cardinally on the left cheek and ordinally on the right cheek... but believe me, we'll keep trying until you get it right."

I want someone who wants to kneel before me. If your psyche needs me to force you to extend yourself, I'll find your soft boundaries and force you past them. Make you ride the edge of your safeword but not quite over it...

So I say revel in the kind of submission you want to give. Your dominant will either learn to appreciate it or will grow into it or will move on and you'll find others, with more experience who appreciate the finer points of submission.

One last thing however, if your dominant says lets role play... and he expects you to be a bratty student, incorregible patient, or some other sort of character who needs a "lesson", then you should indeed "play the part". But not as your normal behavioral mode.

I'm Oz and I've approved this opinion. :D

[this.is.me]

Its kinda sounding like the whole appeal of a bratty sub is to break that out of them. Which just confuses me even more.

[Xmaster1]

Nope don't want a brat challenging me constantly. Teasing is ok. Like Oz said in a rp scene it can be fun but then it is over. I can see som dom wanting to exert their dominance constantly but to me it would be like domming a dom.

[this.is.me]

I have a very hard time with role-play scenes, usually I avoid doms into them. I guess I just need to hear from a bunch of anonymous strangers I am not 'broken' because I don't fight back. I am a very forward person, not a pushover door mat but when I sub I really do submit...guess it's just that old story of not finding the right person for me. I also wonder if the enjoyment of the fight has to do with my age group, I am in my early 20's and rarely play with men over 40.

[DowntownAmber]

Someday, someone will walk into your life and make you realize why it never worked out with anyone else. That's the beauty of Lifestyle AND vanilla couplings - it only really has to work once. You're not even remotely broken, you just haven't found a match that suits you. Eh, it happens when in happens.

[Silus]

I cant stand a bratty woman. I dont want to spend half my life trying to get a grown woman to act her age. The chase can be fun at times, but to be honest, I dont have the energy for it anymore.

[iucundavi]

IT really depends on the dom. I don't think brattiness is an essential part of being a sub, and you're not "broken" because you're not bratty-you just are comfortable in a certain mode of behavior, and that happens to be obedience.

[Oldskool454]

I don't have time or energy to deal with a sub that is intentionally belligerent or TRYING to piss me off. My subs do not need to go out of their way to give me a REASON to punish them. In fact I have dropped on before because she was just a pain in the ass on a daily basis and was attempting to demand too much attention for attention's sake.
I want my subs to have a backbone in day to day like as I see the lack thereof as being a major problem in many people's lives, I want her to stand up for herself at work or if a friend attempts to take advantage of her for instance. The punishment she receives is for NOT doing so or for making poor choices in her day to day life.

[hoosakitty]

I really don't understand how you can have a stable D/s relationship when the sub is always "bratty". I, like you this.is.me, feel it defeats the whole purpose of being dominated. But don't worry, you will find your dom that appreciates ur efforts...hands off mine ;)

kitty

[Austerus]

I don't personally like bratty subs. Well, I mean, they're fine as people and all, but I don't want one as a sub. I far prefer obedient, docile, adoring, and eager to please. I like to know that a sub is uncomfortable, or in pain, or otherwise suffering, not because she likes pain but because she is doing it to make me happy. Having to fight tooth and claw with someone to force her submission is...exhausting. I get enough exhaustion and stress at work, I want a sub who makes it a priority to please me, not to fight me.

[Kore]

So I had been told by a dom who I was somewhat serious with (and am no longer talking to) that the reason he liked this other girl better is because she so bratty and its just so much fun to play with her. I don't get any kind of thrill from trying to 'run away' during a scene or back talking, I am pretty much the opposite of bratty (whatever the word for that is). While I am still a bit upset to see the two of them together I have come to terms that if thats what he was looking for we had no business being together because I will never be that girl he wants. This is only an opinion and observation. (a) Be yourself and don't feel upset because you didn't "measure up" to another's view of what BDSM means. You have different qualities that a good and wise Dominant would admire. (b) There is a word that fits who you are, it's called submissive. (c) If a "brat" needs to mouth off for attention, either the Dominant has no clue what to do or the brat should get some serious attention. (Knock yourself out if that's your kink) I call it an "attitude adjustment".
However today I was playing with someone new and they mentioned how they are used to playing with girls that are a lot more mouthy than me. In fact usually most the scene is based around getting the girl to shut up, because of that he was having a lot of trouble telling when to end things. We had fun and all, plan to play again, but I have a feeling he was disappointed I didn't really 'put up a fight'. Again, you may not be melting or intertwined with the right type of Dominant that fits your needs. Still, to each his or her own. You have a quiet and expressive submission. You may never be that type of person described and still My opinion.
I don't understand the appeal, and it seems like a majority of the people I know (doms and subs) play that way. I personally don't think you can do BDSM 'wrong', aside from people just being stupidly dangerous. It seems lately like I am doing it wrong though. Kind of like I am failing at doing what the person topping me wants; by doing what they ask me to do. It is getting really frustrating. Can someone please explain this to me? It does not feel good to be told that your just not that much fun to play. The appeal is a learned behavior of a spoiled person that requires the need to be the centre of attention. I also believe you're incorrect on the seemingly majority. You may regard it as that because of the age group and the immature level of play. A mature male or female doesn't need to behave in that manner to get attention. I will agree that it can be dangerous if the limits are NOT known or discussed. Again reading your description, you're not doing nothing wrong, just with the wrong person. I don't find a mouth piece fun to play with, more of a baby sitting scene. You should find a mature person that understands real play, real torment, the reality of what a true submissive is. A good and wise Master, knows His submissive, understands the limits, works to push the limits of play, encompasses everything that has meaning, plays that lasts into the wee hours of the morning and most importantly, expresses the best of qualities, builds on qualities, praises the submissive. A true Dominant, a wise Master does NOT damage the Masterpiece.

[thir]

So I had been told by a dom who I was somewhat serious with (and am no longer talking to) that the reason he liked this other girl better is because she so bratty and its just so much fun to play with her. I don't get any kind of thrill from trying to 'run away' during a scene or back talking, I am pretty much the opposite of bratty (whatever the word for that is). While I am still a bit upset to see the two of them together I have come to terms that if thats what he was looking for we had no business being together because I will never be that girl he wants.

However today I was playing with someone new and they mentioned how they are used to playing with girls that are a lot more mouthy than me. In fact usually most the scene is based around getting the girl to shut up, because of that he was having a lot of trouble telling when to end things. We had fun and all, plan to play again, but I have a feeling he was disappointed I didn't really 'put up a fight'.

I don't understand the appeal, and it seems like a majority of the people I know (doms and subs) play that way. I personally don't think you can do BDSM 'wrong', aside from people just being stupidly dangerous. It seems lately like I am doing it wrong though. Kind of like I am failing at doing what the person topping me wants; by doing what they ask me to do. It is getting really frustrating. Can someone please explain this to me? It does not feel good to be told that your just not that much fun to play.

You've got some good answers here, but I just wanted to put in a bit of my own experience: I was in a club where 'bratting' was the accepted norm, that is, a lot of the founders had it, so it just sort of became 'what you do'. In fact, it is amazing how fast that thing can happen..I do not like the bratty game either, there is nothing wrong with it, but you have to be on the same page, just as with everything else, and I found it annoying and getting in the way of some more intense scenes.

It is possible that you have fallen in with some people who have influenced each other into using the same kind of game, which can give you the impression that that is how things are done, and you do not fit in. But as people here are saying: it takes all kinds, and yours is certainly appreciated by a lot of people - you are much easier in many ways to deal with ;-)

[sweetkitten]

I have a question, if I may... Is being bratty an act of topping the bottom?

[Ozme52]

Not unless you have the expectation of getting your way... or unless you think you'll get what you "really" want.

But if being bratty and put in your place, in whatever manner your dominant chooses, and that your dominant does so as they please, it's just another form of D/s play. As valid as dom/sub, daddy/princess, headmaster/student, doctor/patient.

But make no mistake that if your dominant isn't wholeheartedly into it, if you can't adjust when he/she want to change it up, you will lose him/her.

And all that said, I don't think the brat dynamic really works online. Brats need hands on attention imo.

Me? I prefer adoration and obedience. ;)

[sweetkitten]

Thank you... I guess I didn't realize it that I was being bratty that I tend to top the bottom. I learned my lesson. :)

[thir]

I have a question, if I may... Is being bratty an act of topping the bottom?

Can be, if not a way that is accepted by both parties. For example, strangers being bratty to you in a club is trying to force your yo respond in a certain way.

But if it is something liked and accepted by any and all parties, it isn't. Then it is just a playful to do things, even a kind of flirt.

[denuseri]

<< is so tired of the expression "topping from the bottom".

Its been my experience that what a partner is really saying when they use this terminology is: Im not as dom as I thought I was and Im not able to handle dominating you so Im just going to whine now.

Or to quote from the wise old crone I earned my stripes from... "One does not complain to one's slave that they are not submissive enough, one either wields the whip or kneels before it."

[Austerus]

That's a great quote :)

[thir]

<< is so tired of the expression "topping from the bottom".

Its been my experience that what a partner is really saying when they use this terminology is: Im not as dom as I thought I was and Im not able to handle dominating you so Im just going to whine now.

Or to quote from the wise old crone I earned my stripes from... "One does not complain to one's slave that they are not submissive enough, one either wields the whip or kneels before it."

I do share your annoyance at the frequency that this expression is being used!

However, there are times when that term is actually justified.

You are talking about relationships rather than more casual encounters. In more casual encounters, bad behaviour from a complete stranger meant to provoke a punishment does not do anything for me, except make me seriosly annoyed, and deciding that I won't have anything to do with this idiot.

In an actual relationship, I think it is a matter of what kind of relationship you have. Some are based on controlling the slave and keeping them down, others are based on a submission from the person which is already there. A submission that could never express itself in any other terms than with - submission.

I agree that there are doms who cannot control their slaves - they are not nessecarily not doms, but maybe simply badly matched with their sub. But there are also those who would badmouth their subs if they have problems, and that tells it all..Just as there are subs that would badmouth their previous doms, when they get into controlling their subs in earnest.

I agree with others here that fantasies are there to be shared, however they may or may not be expressed in reality, it is simply a thing a dom needs to know. And also, for that matter, that a need to talk in a 'time out' place it not topping from the bottom. There simply must be a time and place to talk about problems, freely.

[denuseri]

I do share your annoyance at the frequency that this expression is being used!

I often associate it with wanna be's and meanies myself.

However, there are times when that term is actually justified.

Ive never seen nor heard of a time when it was "actually" justified in any way other than whining on the top's part.

You are talking about relationships rather than more casual encounters.

Nope Im talking about any interaction no matter how brief between any given would be dominant and any other individual dom/sub/or otherwise.

In more casual encounters, bad behaviour from a complete stranger meant to provoke a punishment does not do anything for me, except make me seriosly annoyed, and deciding that I won't have anything to do with this idiot.

That's your choice to make...others decide they would rather see so and so get their comeuppance, but if they whine about...they whined, plain and simple.

In an actual relationship, I think it is a matter of what kind of relationship you have. Some are based on controlling the slave and keeping them down, others are based on a submission from the person which is already there. A submission that could never express itself in any other terms than with - submission.

Everyone Ive seen in the lifestyle goes through phases, and desires never seem to be 100% fixed equations, whats considered "bratty" behavior by some is considered "spirited" and highly sought after by others etc; its all a matter of perspective and no one other than a "doormat" is 100% submissive 100% of the time.

I agree that there are doms who cannot control their slaves - they are not nessecarily not doms, but maybe simply badly matched with their sub. But there are also those who would badmouth their subs if they have problems, and that tells it all..Just as there are subs that would badmouth their previous doms, when they get into controlling their subs in earnest.

In my understanding of things, dominance and submission are all "relative" to the participants involved or to the observer.

Please note I never said the "dom" suddenly stopped identifying his or herself as dominant or that the submisive who is being bratty stops being who and what they are.

but...the dom who resorts to making the topping from the bottom statement is imho falling into doing what comes natural in human nature and shifting the blame for his or her own failings unto others, making it their fault instead of seeing that the real problem lays just as much in their own behavior and mental attitude as well and they most certiantly at the time of making such a statement are betraying the fact that they eaither lack the self disipline nessesary to deal with it or the experience to recognize where the problem really is. Making excuses isnt strength...its weakness.

(trust me in real life..."bratts" dont act so bratty when they feel themselves in the presence of what they consider to be someone who holds "dominance" over them and there is a real threat of reprisal that they know they aint going to enjoy lol )

If the would be dominant partner manned up and deals with their own insecurities first and controlled their own emotions they wouldn't have any problems dealing with the bratty sub...as opposed to throwing in the towel or making derogatory assessments to explain their own failures they just note to themselves that dominance isnt yet fully established and press on to either establish it, let things be, or go elsewhere as they desired...all without seeing a necessity to belittle the other person.

When you see a dominants that knows "this" part of these very well established dominance hierarchy behaviors and actually understands them for what they are, they then know exactly how to deal with the so called bratty sub because they understand how the dynamic of D/s really works and they no longer need to make excuses for their own insecurities while interacting with their charges. Its simply a matter of actual confidence and experience at work as opposed to misconceptions of identity. One also will observe the so called brattyness disapear as if by majic when they deal with those individuals.

I agree with others here that fantasies are there to be shared, however they may or may not be expressed in reality, it is simply a thing a dom needs to know. And also, for that matter, that a need to talk in a 'time out' place it not topping from the bottom. There simply must be a time and place to talk about problems, freely.

Feedback without fear of reprisal from any involved party is a very necessary component to open and honest communication in the lifestyle.

[thir]

t: You are talking about relationships rather than more casual encounters.

d: Nope Im talking about any interaction no matter how brief between any given would be dominant and any other individual dom/sub/or otherwise.

t: In more casual encounters, bad behaviour from a complete stranger meant to provoke a punishment does not do anything for me, except make me seriosly annoyed, and deciding that I won't have anything to do with this idiot.

d: That's your choice to make...others decide they would rather see so and so get their comeuppance, but if they whine about...they whined, plain and simple.



see so meaning??

Well, if someone completely strange to me that I have no interest in upsets my tea in my lab, I do not reward them with giving them attention of any kind other than to tell them to fuck off, or get them thrown out - depending on how warm it was!

I also do not agree that talking about topping from the bottom is per definition whining. It is also in fact a description of a behaviour, which is it good to know and bear in mind. For instance, the difference between sharing fantasies and tftb is not always clear at first, especially if your are new. Is sounds clear, but it isn't always so easy in real life, and Doms are also told they should listen.



t In an actual relationship, I think it is a matter of what kind of relationship you have. Some are based on controlling the slave and keeping them down, others are based on a submission from the person which is already there. A submission that could never express itself in any other terms than with - submission.

d: Everyone Ive seen in the lifestyle goes through phases, and desires never seem to be 100% fixed equations, whats considered "bratty" behavior by some is considered "spirited" and highly sought after by others etc; its all a matter of perspective and no one other than a "doormat" is 100% submissive 100% of the time.


Which in some cases also means a change of partners, or a change in partners. People have their ways, and that is ok.



t: I agree that there are doms who cannot control their slaves - they are not nessecarily not doms, but maybe simply badly matched with their sub. But there are also those who would badmouth their subs if they have problems, and that tells it all..Just as there are subs that would badmouth their previous doms, when they get into controlling their subs in earnest.

(cut)
d:but...the dom who resorts to making the topping from the bottom statement is imho falling into doing what comes natural in human nature and shifting the blame for his or her own failings unto others, making it their fault instead of seeing that the real problem lays just as much in their own behavior and mental attitude as well and they most certiantly at the time of making such a statement are betraying the fact that they eaither lack the self disipline nessesary to deal with it or the experience to recognize where the problem really is. Making excuses isnt strength...its weakness.


Well, you know what I mean about 'what comes natural in human nature' ;-)

As for the rest, using the expression tftb does not mean you do not deal with it. In and of itself, it only means that you recognize a certain kind of behaviour. What happens next, depends. Either the dom decides to handle the problem, or he/she decides that person is not worth it, or the wrong kind of person for them, because their style or need is bratting, while you don't want to deal with it that way, you want someone who can learn obedience. A sub who is bratting by need, would not be happy any other way. A dom who wants a bratty sub, would not be interested in total obedience, once and for all.

I cannot see it makes sense to speak in so general terms, as if only one way of doing it is ok, or as if the dom has to prove anything. You do not have to prove, just to be.



d:(trust me in real life..."bratts" dont act so bratty when they feel themselves in the presence of what they consider to be someone who holds "dominance" over them and there is a real threat of reprisal that they know they aint going to enjoy lol )


t: actually - I do not trust you ;-) Brattiness is a game, simply. See above. The situation you mention above may be what they need - in which case they are not being bratty really, just looking for the dom to take them in hand - or it may go all wrong, because that is not what they need and tried to signal at all.



If the would be dominant partner manned up and deals with their own insecurities first and controlled their own emotions they wouldn't have any problems dealing with the bratty sub...as opposed to throwing in the towel or making derogatory assessments to explain their own failures they just note to themselves that dominance isnt yet fully established and press on to either establish it, let things be, or go elsewhere as they desired...all without seeing a necessity to belittle the other person.


If the expression tftb is used as a derogatory term (rather than a description of a behavioural pattern) and the dom is using it to bad mouth a previous partner, you may have a point. But please excuse me if I say that the rest is macho nonsense M/K.

Some people do not really want to be dominated, they want to play crime and punishment and cath me if you can. There are doms who are happy with that, and all is well. But if a dom is actually dominating them, the relationship will crash - it is too much, and not what they want. Same the other way around. If a sub is provoking to be taken in hand, that sub will not be happy without real dominance, and would be lost with a play parther.

[denuseri]

All I am saying is that weather one is purposefully resisting the will of the dominant, doing so because the dominant desires it, or doing it unconsciously as the predominate natural response of human beings at certain points in social dominance hierarchy relationships (no matter how brief said relationship was or how willing a submissive thinks she is during it...she does respond in predictable patterns if one is knowledgeable of such behavioral conditions, then one knows what to expect and how to change things) in some situations even when she doesn't want too and she will do things she knows are wrong simply for the purpose of receiving attention.

The term topping from the bottom and the misdirected mentality of those using the term to describe a submissives behavior (no matter how clinically) isn't addressing the real issue.

Its like all the latest research on really bad and prolonged tantrums is revealing that the children shouldn't be blamed for them so much as the parents should for amplifying and prolonging a natural process via inappropriate reactions to it.

If one doesn't have the right tools, the self control, the insight, and the awareness and acumen to know whats happening when it happens and respond accordingly because they have always misplaced assigning blame because they do not really understand the phenomena, then they end up prolonging it in similar fashion.

Same goes for attention seeking behaviors and a number of other factors of human physiology of which our psychology is an inherent and important part of the cohesive whole.

[leo9]

Its kinda sounding like the whole appeal of a bratty sub is to break that out of them. Which just confuses me even more.That's because you're confusing role playing with real motives.

When "bratty" is a relationship style, rather than an attention getting ploy, it's what thir calls the game of crime and punishment.The slave serves the Owner by providing a constant supply of excuses to punish hir. If that doesn't make sense to you, because (a) a sub should want to be, well, submissive, and (b) a Dom shouldn't need an excuse if sie wants to tan a slave's hide, just accept that it's a different way of doing D/s.

(Though not exactly a brat, the heroine of "Secretary," in the last scene showing her married life with her Master, gives a lovely demonstration of point (b). She makes the bed perfectly, as a good slave should... then puts a dead roach on his pillow, to complete her service by giving him a reason to beat her.)

When I've enjoyed the use of bratty subs, the last thing I wanted to do was to succeed in beating it out of them: that would ruin the fun. "Trying" to, in the confident knowledge that I wouldn't succeed, now that was fun.

[leo9]

All I am saying is that weather one is purposefully resisting the will of the dominant, doing so because the dominant desires it, or doing it unconsciously as the predominate natural response of human beings at certain points in social dominance hierarchy relationships (no matter how brief said relationship was or how willing a submissive thinks she is during it...she does respond in predictable patterns if one is knowledgeable of such behavioral conditions, then one knows what to expect and how to change things) in some situations even when she doesn't want too and she will do things she knows are wrong simply for the purpose of receiving attention.
I'm sorry, could you unpack that? I lost track of what you were trying to say around the second line.


The term topping from the bottom and the misdirected mentality of those using the term to describe a submissives behavior (no matter how clinically) isn't addressing the real issue.

Agreed in most cases: tftb is a separate issue to "brattiness" in relationships. It only applies in the situation thir describes, where a sub approaches a Dom in what sie intends as a challenging way in the hope of being slapped down.


Its like all the latest research on really bad and prolonged tantrums is revealing that the children shouldn't be blamed for them so much as the parents should for amplifying and prolonging a natural process via inappropriate reactions to it.

I don't see the relevance. Really bad behaviour in a sub, meaning behaviour the Dom doesn't want rather than play-misbehaviour (and the difference may not be apparent from outside the relationship,) may, as you suggest, be a sign that the sub needs and wants more forceful dominance. Or it may simply mean that the relationship isn't working and these two people shouldn't be together. Either way, it has nothing to do with the sort of "brattiness" this.is.me originally asked about, which is a D/s lifestyle choice that doesn't suit her.

[thir]

I rather think we get mized up in 'brattiness' and tftb, two very different things, but that is already dealt with in previous mails.

I am personally very uncomfortable comparing views on bringing up children with a D's relationship. I know that descriptions on training slaves can sometimes sound a bit like bringing up children, but unless it is in fact age play, I personally need to stress the difference between children and adults. They are two very different situations.

Having said that, I do think I know what you are aiming at. Yes, within the bounderies of the D's relationship it behoves the dom to keep his er her sub in line. That is the long and short of it. There is a time to talk, and a time to stop talking and start taking control.

This can only be done, though, if they are largely on the same page, (understand each other) and they have to know each other quite well, especially if you have to 'get tough' mentally or physically. From this perspective I do also understand your view on 'topping from the bottom' - with the disclaimer that it is only functional relationships where it can be done. And non-functional relationships may be the dom, or it may be the combination of the people involved.

[Austerus]

Leo, denuseri is saying (please correct me if I am wrong denuseri) that whether a sub's brattiness is desired by the Dom or not, it's pretty predictable and eminently manageable if you recognize and look for the completely natural patterns of dominance hierarchies, and not recognizing and reacting appropriately is a failing of the Dom not the sub.

Likewise, topping from the bottom isn't really a failure of a sub. It's natural hierarchy testing behavior, and a Dom can either react to reinforce the hierarchy or not, as he decides. It's silly to choose to allow the hierarchy to become confused, to be unhappy with the result, and then complain about the sub. He's whining about biology and his own shortcomings, but putting them on someone else.

I think most subs in most consensual relationships _want_ a clear hierarchy and will be happier when it and it's maintained. If there isn't one it's her dominant's fault, not hers.

[rosemaryj {domin8tor}]

Hi

anyone who has seen me in the last week, knows i am extremely new here, so my opinion is not very educated or anything, but here it is anyway!

as far as i can tell and from very limited experience you are by no means unusual, there seem to be many people who dont see the sub role as 'fighting back' or needing to be 'broken in spirit' (some do and thats cool, but many seem to want to be the submissive partner through and through). i would guess that it has just been bad luck that the Doms you have met have recently experienced different kinds of submission and are just not expecting you to be how you are. it sounds as naff a thing to say in cyber space as in real life (but i think its still true!) you just have to meet the RIGHT person and then it will all fall into place. keep looking...x

Rosemary

[denuseri]

I am personally very uncomfortable comparing views on bringing up children with a D's relationship. I know that descriptions on training slaves can sometimes sound a bit like bringing up children, but unless it is in fact age play, I personally need to stress the difference between children and adults. They are two very different situations.

Oh of course they are, though I figured that analogy was preferable to animal training ones lol.

Having said that, I do think I know what you are aiming at. Yes, within the bounderies of the D's relationship it behoves the dom to keep his er her sub in line. That is the long and short of it. There is a time to talk, and a time to stop talking and start taking control.

This can only be done, though, if they are largely on the same page, (understand each other) and they have to know each other quite well, (ummm not in my experience...if the top knows what they are doing, its a non-issue even with the most casual of partners), especially if you have to 'get tough' mentally or physically. From this perspective I do also understand your view on 'topping from the bottom' - with the disclaimer that it is only functional relationships where it can be done. And non-functional relationships may be the dom, or it may be the combination of the people involved.

Your missing my real point...being that "topping from the bottom" as its called and commonly understood, is a misrepresentation of whats actually happening within the D/s dynamic at the time... a miss-matching between two individuals as to who is dominating whom and isnt the "fault" of the submissive.

I also agree we are getting sidetracked with the discussion about topping from the bottom anyways.

[denuseri]

Leo, denuseri is saying (please correct me if I am wrong denuseri) that whether a sub's brattiness is desired by the Dom or not, it's pretty predictable and eminently manageable if you recognize and look for the completely natural patterns of dominance hierarchies, and not recognizing and reacting appropriately is a failing of the Dom not the sub.

Likewise, topping from the bottom isn't really a failure of a sub. It's natural hierarchy testing behavior, and a Dom can either react to reinforce the hierarchy or not, as he decides. It's silly to choose to allow the hierarchy to become confused, to be unhappy with the result, and then complain about the sub. He's whining about biology and his own shortcomings, but putting them on someone else.

I think most subs in most consensual relationships _want_ a clear hierarchy and will be happier when it and it's maintained. If there isn't one it's her dominant's fault, not hers.

lol correct you Sir? You said it far better than I!

[this.is.me]

Have not been on the forum in a while, this topic kinda took off lol. It was really interesting reading everyone's opinions and explanations. Someone mentioned it being more common in the younger crowd and I am in that group so that might be a big factor on why I feel a little like the odd one out. Hanging around a slightly older crowd I don't get nearly the same worry. I am getting a lot more comfortable with who I am as a submissive, and exactly what I am looking for in a Dominant. I have also found that the right person can get one hell of a response out of me lol. This was as super encouraging to read and it was nice to see it from the angle of bratty not necessarily being bad, just not my thing.

I think it is going to take me a while to find that right Dom for me, but I am just going to have some fun along the way and not change who I am.

[thir]

I think it is going to take me a while to find that right Dom for me, but I am just going to have some fun along the way and not change who I am.

Good for you! Best of luck:o

[Rwkeith]

The way I see it, there is no point of having Dom/Sub roles if you never cross the boundries of a Dom/Sub. The roles are there for guidance, it's up to you on how you want to play out your role.

[xXsubpuppyXx]

Like rosemaryj i'm very new here so my respons my not be as well educated or valid as most of the other posts, I would not call myself bratty nor do I think i would go out of my way to annoy the dom, I think i would try to listen to what -in my case- He said, however that doesen't mean i would never talk back or question him, in m ordinary life i am quite dominant and controlling, so I think that would be something hard to change in a sexuall enviorment if I'm feeling nervous or uncomfortable. this does not mean i think I would be cocky, but more questioning- although seeing as I have never been in any real life bdsm situations I wouldn't know exactly how I'd act.