View Full Version : Jealousy
propertyofslavehaven
12-06-2011, 11:45 PM
I am a full time slave. I dedicate my life to my Master and there is nothing i wouldnt do for him. The last year or so we have had promblems with jealousy. (me being jealous) Im positive we are on the right track now and things are going great with what we are trying to do with me dealing with my jealous behavior. It is the hardest thing i have done as a slave. Has anyone had or have jealousy problems in thier relationship and how did they get passed it?
slavehaven
12-07-2011, 12:17 PM
My slave is referring to her struggles being with a poly Master. As it is known, jealousy is more intense with slaves because of their obsessive devotion, so it should be acknowledged as a great accomplishment if a slave can overcome bad jealous feelings.
I have learned a lot on this topic and look forward to offering my wisdom. However, I don't want to color the responses with my opinions. We would like to hear comments from both Masters and slaves about their experience with Master taking on other slaves or simply looking outside of the relationship for additional stimulation.
denuseri
12-07-2011, 04:22 PM
Perhaps if you counterbalanced it with sharing your submissive with other partners it may take the sting off?
sweetkitten
12-07-2011, 04:29 PM
I had the same problem once. My sub sisters and i have different attitudes and needs, but we have at least one thing in common - we love our Dom. It was really hard for me at first to see our Dom with other subs, the little green monster in me tends to come out with claws, but in the end, I learned how to share.
Perhaps if you counterbalanced it with sharing your submissive with other partners it may take the sting off?
That is a good point, seen from a poly view. Poly is not about sacrifice, but about building kinds of relationships that all invovled are happy with, barring the usual realionship problems that we all have, obviosly. What I mean is that the structure of the family/group or whatever is something that people want.
I had the same problem once. My sub sisters and i have different attitudes and needs, but we have at least one thing in common - we love our Dom. It was really hard for me at first to see our Dom with other subs, the little green monster in me tends to come out with claws, but in the end, I learned how to share.
May I ask how you learned to share? Any tips to pass on?
Out of curiosity, may I ask if you and your sisters have giving relationships with each other? And what structure you use?
I am always interested in how other people organise their poly relationships.
I am a full time slave. I dedicate my life to my Master and there is nothing i wouldnt do for him. The last year or so we have had promblems with jealousy. (me being jealous) Im positive we are on the right track now and things are going great with what we are trying to do with me dealing with my jealous behavior. It is the hardest thing i have done as a slave. Has anyone had or have jealousy problems in thier relationship and how did they get passed it?
Big topic! And and evergreen, it being such a painfull feeling.
Some say a 'good' feeling, because it shows you love someone - even that without it you don't. I think that is nonsense. My own Lord loves me, and he doesn't have a jealous bone is his body about my vanilla other husband.
Some say it is a 'bad' feeling, because you should not have such feelings if you are a 'real' poly or a 'real' slave. I think that is nonsense. It is a feeling, simply, and in the first case noone can control their feelings, (though you can work with them) in the second case it may have a very good reason.
Well, the first thing in my mind, when trying to tackle jealousy, is to ask what is really behind it.
For instance, does it come from fear, such as real risk of loosing the loved one? Does it come from a percieved fear of loosing the loved one?
In the first case only time will solve it by telling, in the second, reassurance is very important.
I get jealous. In my case it comes from feeling inferior, because due to my health I know I cannot give as much to my Lord as he needs, or indeed as I need. He is looking for another slave or maybe more casual relationship to make up for it, and that is hard emotionally, because this other person will give him what I can't (but want to) and get what I can't often get (but want to.)
So the base of my jealousy in my specific situation is not that I cannot bear to see him with others, but that I have to go hungry myself.
It is not a good situation, it is best to enlarge families or relationships out of a surplus. But I love my Leo9 and I cannot bear to see him starve! So I want him to have another. My weapen against jealousy in this situation is my love, and finding good ways to find other kinds of joy in my life. Not - never! - to take the place of sex and intimacy. I am, forturnately - or unfortunately - still a person with an appetite for sex that is much healthier than I am. But I believe that I can turn some of it into other joys such as creative activities, as much exercise as I can do, my family, and a lot of other things.
I can also turn inside, and develope my spiritual side.
I rather think that every person's jealousy is different. I think it important that every person try to figure out exactly what it the cause of the jealousy, and try to work with it from there. Once you know what the reason is, it is much easier to find tools against it.
In D's relationships it is very important to take decision about poly which all can live with. Jealousy can also mean that a situation is simply not right for that person. And it does not matter how submissive or devoted you are, if your mindset really is mono through and through, and not a matter of learning new ways, you cannot be happy with it any more than you can decide to be vanilla instead of a bdsm.
sweetkitten
12-08-2011, 04:59 AM
May I ask how you learned to share? Any tips to pass on?
Out of curiosity, may I ask if you and your sisters have giving relationships with each other? And what structure you use?
I am always interested in how other people organise their poly relationships.
I don't really know how I learned to share. We just love our Dom (which is now my last Dom), and he doesn't like seeing us fight. We all want to please him and we worked on that from there. I'm actually the goodie-goodie among us three, I dunno if that helped.
But still, I feel the pinch in my heart whenever I see our Dom with another sub.
Brkndrgn
12-08-2011, 01:27 PM
Jealously is a beast, that's for sure. My Dom is poly, even though we agreed when we got together that we would be monogamous. It's still hard though, I feel like I phase into the Hulk everytime another female gets within ten feet of him regardless of if he notices her or not.
But like someone else said, you need to figure out where exactly the jealousy comes from before you can work to control it. Mine comes from a few places: 1- the absolute certainty that I'm not enough to hold his interest crops up every so often, 2- pure vanity because he's a tall, hot musician that could have anyone he wants and I'm an overweight short girl with a big mouth and a bitchy attitude. My jealousy comes from my own insecurity, not from things that he does, so I know it's something I have to strangle because he can't help me with it. You just need to find your niche in his life and remember that that place belongs only to you, that no one can take it.
That being said, I have one thing to add about the poly lifestyle. No offense to anyone is meant, so please don't drag me into a proverbial alley and kick my ass. I've been in poly relationships and this is my take on it: the only way it works is if everyone is poly. Eventually, in my experience, if a monogamous person is in a poly situation, it will become too hard to deal and the relationship will have to end. So that's something you need to explore as well, make sure you can handle being one of many. Slave or not, that's still a decision you have to make. Poly is hard, it takes a lot of will to maintain that lifestyle, so make sure you want to put in the time.
propertyofslavehaven
12-08-2011, 03:02 PM
I do know where my jealousy comes from. It comes from thinking im not good enough for him and he can find someone else that can serve him better than me. Master reasures me constantly that isnt the case and I am his number one. That is what I have been working on; my insecurities. Its something I have to do myself and Master can not help me with this. believe me he has tried. I will always be jealous because my love, devotion and dedication for him is more than words can say. I just got to learn how to deal with my jealousy in the correct manor when it comes out. Im making progress and doing great with it, but it is one of those things that will always be hard and its also one of those things that makes him see how much i love and worship him. I will never get tired of doing that.
denuseri
12-08-2011, 04:29 PM
I've been in poly relationships and this is my take on it: the only way it works is if everyone is poly. Eventually, in my experience, if a monogamous person is in a poly situation, it will become too hard to deal and the relationship will have to end.
I agree for the most part with this...in my experience even when I was in a typical D/s+
(one dom and two or more submissives situation)
...in all the ones that worked for any length of time: we girls often messed around with each other both in "his" presence and outside of it at will.
Sometimes all it takes for a poly situation to go wrong is for new partner to be mono at heart or worse introduced from outside of the original group as a "friend" (someone they have been fucking behind the groups back on the sly being the absolute worse case) of one of the pre-existing partners and then have one or more partners agree to the addition but only to not make the dominat partner uncomfortable because they have such strong feelings for him etc.
denuseri
12-08-2011, 04:43 PM
I do not recommend in any circumstances D/s M/s Gorean/ oldschool/ fetball/ furry etc or otherwise, that a new partner be introduced into any kind of relationship without the express and full consent / 100% approval of any and ALL partners involved, and yes that most certifiably includes live in owned slaves as well.
If one partner, regardless of status within the relationship dynamic revokes consent or isnt comfortable with giving or having given it then poof! its SSC 101, administrative timeout what have you, all play, all dominating and submitting etc is done until the issue whatever it may be is either resolved or new dynamic is agreed upon or the relationship is terminated.
If you have issues or have developed issues: with sharing, or poly or really anything from no boobie torture before 3pm to no bdsm in front of the uninitiated or no tickle torture for hard limits etc ....then voice them, insist upon them prior to play and if a condition arises later...voice it too, dont let things slide or get all "but I live to serve I have to do it" mush mush...cause all your doing by going down that road is a diservice to yourself and your other partners.
propertyofslavehaven
12-09-2011, 12:41 AM
Why do I feel jealous when I trust my Master completely and love him unconditionly? Its torcher for him and me.
Brkndrgn
12-09-2011, 12:53 PM
Everyone feels jealous at some point, it's a perfectly normal human emotion. Unless you become a robot, it probably won't go away, allyou can do is learn to deal. You say you love and trust him unconditionally, just remind yourself of that when ever you get jealous. I really don't know if there's anything you can do beyond that, Gods know if there was I'd be the first one in line for the cure.
scarlet_85
12-09-2011, 01:12 PM
I am not in a poly relationship and never have been so, therefore, I can add zero input on this topic but i just wanted to thank you all for throwing in your opinions. I truly believe that to be in a BDSM setting, you have to respect and understand (as best as you can) all angles of the lifestyle.
I will say that even though I'm not poly,, I can relate to a lot of those feelings statd above. Like my Dom is mine!! I know as a sub, that seems like a completelt uncalled for statement. However, when a good friend of mine started asking Him questions about BDSM, I felt that she was shaking my cherry tree. I know that he would never be her Dom, but even the thought of it bothered me. Also, comments have been made that she be tied up in the corner with duct tape over her mouth, watching as we played. Even that made me feel like even though it was a just a thought, she had become a part of what Him and I have.
I suppose my point is that we all deal with some form of jealousy. I agree with what Brkndrgn said. I think we all need to remember that we hold a place somewhere that nobody else could fill. I know for a fact that I am His one and only. I know that he does not want or need anything more. I would think as a poly, you could pull on your individual strengths. Your own fabulous traits and know that is why he holds you close, but at the same time acknowledge that other subs also hold something speacial.
Like I said, I am not poly but if you take just the jealousy chunk, I think anyone can relate. I hope you find your balance. BDSM is great and I think if it interests you, its worth finding that perfect balance.
slavehaven
12-09-2011, 08:55 PM
My slave and I have been living this lifestyle for 5 years and she has been collar for 3. I am a poly Master and in the begining she thought she was as well (or maybe she just thought she could do it because she wanted to be collared so bad.) The understanding was written into her contract and before long I began to introduce others into our play. It became obvious right away that her intense devotion is akin to obsession. The jealousy was/is monumental. It took me aback. It has been a struggle because she feels like a failure as a slave and I feel crippled as a Master. The problem is that we both want eachother to be happy. Yes, she is my slave. However, I do not force her servitude. Force will break her will and spirit. She has begged me to take another girl so that she can feel good about her gift, but I know it is killing her inside. Her jealousy makes her act out whenever we try to bring someone in.
We are working on it and I am training her to find better ways to deal with it, but I question myself for I fear I am killing the very thing that makes her special--her obsession!
Ozme52
12-09-2011, 10:10 PM
She must channel her obsession into being the very best slave she can be, for you, by your standards and rules. Then her obsession will benefit you both.
YOU must assure her (somehow) that she pleases you very much and that she is in no danger of losing you as her master. Her jealousy stems from the thought she might lose you. IMO, all jealousy stems from fear of loss. Her own words confirm this... that she feels inadequate and that it is inevitable you will find a better slave. This means that somehow, you have left her insecure.
That said... to 'propertyof..." I say, you have to believe your master when he tells you of your worth to him. In fact, telling him you are inadequate despite his reassurances... just may convince him you're right. So stop doubting yourself. He's owned you for three years. That''s nigh on 30 vanilla-years in an ordinary relationship. Time you relented and take his word for it. Afterall, Master knows better than you what makes a good slave.
Why is three years of ownership the same as 30 years of vanilla relationship?
scarlet_85
12-10-2011, 11:48 PM
Why is three years of ownership the same as 30 years of vanilla relationship?
I'm curious to know the answer to this as well. I could understand that with a BDSM relationship it requires more. At least in my opinion. For instance, effort, trust, communication... These are all things that will increase in a D/s relationship. I feel though that my year of devotion to my Master is still a year. In all honesty, I have zero desire to serve another... Ever. I've thought about the possibility of being able to, but it always comes back to the same thought. I don't think I could.
Also a comment was made about worth. I feel its a great point. Even though jealousy surfaces on occasion with new "threats", my Master saying things such as: I'm so proud of you -and- you are My one and only -and- you are the only cherry on ky cherry tree ... Well, it's the reassurance that I need to make all jealousy subside. If you have an honest relationship, comments of reassurance must be taken at face value and should in turn be comforting.
I do not recommend in any circumstances D/s M/s Gorean/ oldschool/ fetball/ furry etc or otherwise, that a new partner be introduced into any kind of relationship without the express and full consent / 100% approval of any and ALL partners involved, and yes that most certifiably includes live in owned slaves as well.
If one partner, regardless of status within the relationship dynamic revokes consent or isnt comfortable with giving or having given it then poof! its SSC 101, administrative timeout what have you, all play, all dominating and submitting etc is done until the issue whatever it may be is either resolved or new dynamic is agreed upon or the relationship is terminated.
If you have issues or have developed issues: with sharing, or poly or really anything from no boobie torture before 3pm to no bdsm in front of the uninitiated or no tickle torture for hard limits etc ....then voice them, insist upon them prior to play and if a condition arises later...voice it too, dont let things slide or get all "but I live to serve I have to do it" mush mush...cause all your doing by going down that road is a diservice to yourself and your other partners.
Absolutely right.
Everyone feels jealous at some point, it's a perfectly normal human emotion. Unless you become a robot, it probably won't go away, allyou can do is learn to deal. You say you love and trust him unconditionally, just remind yourself of that when ever you get jealous. I really don't know if there's anything you can do beyond that, Gods know if there was I'd be the first one in line for the cure.
Actually, there are people who are not jealousy at all. Truly.
Why do I feel jealous when I trust my Master completely and love him unconditionly? Its torcher for him and me.
I think it is because the feeling does not come from him, but from inside you. Meaning, it does not matter how much you trusth him, if you have a little 'enemy' inside which cannot find peace. You'd have to heal that first.
Does that make sense?
My slave and I have been living this lifestyle for 5 years and she has been collar for 3. I am a poly Master and in the begining she thought she was as well (or maybe she just thought she could do it because she wanted to be collared so bad.) The understanding was written into her contract and before long I began to introduce others into our play. It became obvious right away that her intense devotion is akin to obsession. The jealousy was/is monumental. It took me aback. It has been a struggle because she feels like a failure as a slave and I feel crippled as a Master. The problem is that we both want eachother to be happy. Yes, she is my slave. However, I do not force her servitude. Force will break her will and spirit. She has begged me to take another girl so that she can feel good about her gift, but I know it is killing her inside. Her jealousy makes her act out whenever we try to bring someone in.
We are working on it and I am training her to find better ways to deal with it, but I question myself for I fear I am killing the very thing that makes her special--her obsession!
Can I ask some questions? It seems to me you touch on something important here. Is it possible that her obsession is simply being monogamous? Is it possible that her obsession is devoution? Just asking, because you said in your first post that all subs are obsessive, and I am trying to understand what exactly you
mean by it.
"Definition of OBSESSIVE
1
a : tending to cause obsession b : excessive often to an unreasonable degree
2
: of, relating to, or characterized by obsession : deriving from obsession
Many dancers are obsessive about their weight.
He is an obsessive workaholic who never stops thinking about his job.
an obsessive interest in space travel
The new therapy is supposed to help people control their obsessive thoughts."
Further, how does obsession (as I understand the word) go with poly relationships?
And finally, is it possible that it all went a bit too fast?
Hope you understand that I mean no offence here, just wanting to get to something important: Is there something obsessive about submission?
Ozme52
12-11-2011, 11:08 AM
Why is three years of ownership the same as 30 years of vanilla relationship?
Strictly a personal opinion of course... and I maintain both vanilla and kink relationships (being poly and/or open,) I just think that the intensity of emotions one feels between a dominant and submissive, are more intense with higher highs and lower lows, more fulfilling, and in some ways, more prone to love/lust "at first sight" fulfillment and burnout, than vanilla. Master/slave relationships, that are based on emotional bonds, may be even moreso in intensity.
So a three year commitment is like a 30 year vanilla relationship and those aren't disposed of as readily as a relationship of shorter term.
We are past the 20 year mark for " mostly vanilla" relationship, and then going on 6 months of way more kinkiness, and probably 4 months of M/s, within the same relationship. It is like being in the first stage of love all over again when you feel like you're burning up or burning down constantly. Hopefully not burning out though.
Jealously is a beast, that's for sure. My Dom is poly, even though we agreed when we got together that we would be monogamous. It's still hard though, I feel like I phase into the Hulk everytime another female gets within ten feet of him regardless of if he notices her or not.
That being said, I have one thing to add about the poly lifestyle. No offense to anyone is meant, so please don't drag me into a proverbial alley and kick my ass. I've been in poly relationships and this is my take on it: the only way it works is if everyone is poly. Eventually, in my experience, if a monogamous person is in a poly situation, it will become too hard to deal and the relationship will have to end. So that's something you need to explore as well, make sure you can handle being one of many. Slave or not, that's still a decision you have to make. Poly is hard, it takes a lot of will to maintain that lifestyle, so make sure you want to put in the time.
I have to agree with you on that. It is not a good situation, much like a vanilla and a bdsm person. But the reason you can end up there is the same as with a vanilla and a bdsm: that you do not realize from the start what you are all about. So it was with me and again - I agree, not good!
May I ask, why you changed from mono to poly if that was not the plan? Same problem?
YOU must assure her (somehow) that she pleases you very much and that she is in no danger of losing you as her master. Her jealousy stems from the thought she might lose you. IMO, all jealousy stems from fear of loss. Her own words confirm this... that she feels inadequate and that it is inevitable you will find a better slave. This means that somehow, you have left her insecure.
despite his reassurances... just may convince him you're right. So stop doubting yourself. He's owned you for three years. That''s nigh on 30 vanilla-years in an ordinary relationship. Time you relented and take his word for it. Afterall, Master knows better than you what makes a good slave.
I think if she has been owned for 3 years and still feels insecure this may not be something the Master can help her with. Or not simply by reassurances. If she could 'stop it', I rather think she would have by now. It is a painful feeling.
Discussing jealousy is a good topic and always relevant, seeing how it torments so many people. I personally do not think for a moment that it is all about losing, rather I think that jealousy is a header of sorts that can cover a great many feelings/problems.
One is fear of losing, true, and this can be relevant or not. I wonder why so few doms are sharing their slaves? Could it be because they would be jealous because of feeling possessive - or inadequate? Because logically there is no reason why not, and it would certainly solve another reason for jealousy in slaves/subs: that they simply aren't getting their needs met because, as poly people say 'love is unlimmited, but time isn't'.
Another reason for jealousy can be that people are not treated equally.
And then there is the feeling of insufficiency which is quite real, as in my example.
And yet another the simple reason for jealousy is that we live in a monogamous society that all but promotes jealousy, making it a hallmark of true love. But it isn't. Whatever 'true' love is, it isn't obsessive in a bad way, or possesive in a bad way. Bad, as in 'if I cannot have you no one can' - bang! It is about making your loved one happy. IMO. With hard work, if needed, but not with sacrifice.
I myself must agree with denuseri that all involved parties must agree to a poly relationship if it is to work - must want it.
And I can't help feeling that it is a bit easy to see fault in subs who try to share, while the dom is sitting pretty with no such problems.
In other words, I think that jealousy can be seen as coming from two sources: totally reasonable ones, where it would be impossible not to be jealous or feel bad, and not real ones, where the problems are not directly connected with the relationship as such.
I feel that a continued jealousy problem - continued unhappiness - can be either in the person, or in the situation, and it is vital to find out which before you begin to try to find a solution.
dont let things slide or get all "but I live to serve I have to do it" mush mush...cause all your doing by going down that road is a diservice to yourself and your other partners.Absolutely agree, and nowhere do we see this more often than issues of sharing.
Experience has taught me, when I see a thread on the theme of "Master wants to take another slave," to expect a tragedy. All the more painful if the sub honestly tries to live up to the impossible ideal of "I can be happy with anything if it pleases Master." I have seen some working themselves into a breakdown that way.
Not that all slaves are obsessively mono, far from it: I've known many who truly are glad to welcome anyone else who makes their loved Owner happy. (My ex-slave made only one absolute condition, that nobody should be put under her orders: she didn't mind how many other slaves I had so long as she was the lowest.) But poly and BDSM are two separate orientations, and one doesn't imply the other.
slavehaven
12-12-2011, 08:12 PM
Can I ask some questions? It seems to me you touch on something important here. Is it possible that her obsession is simply being monogamous? Is it possible that her obsession is devoution? Just asking, because you said in your first post that all subs are obsessive, and I am trying to understand what exactly you
mean by it.
"Definition of OBSESSIVE
1
a : tending to cause obsession b : excessive often to an unreasonable degree
2
: of, relating to, or characterized by obsession : deriving from obsession
Many dancers are obsessive about their weight.
He is an obsessive workaholic who never stops thinking about his job.
an obsessive interest in space travel
The new therapy is supposed to help people control their obsessive thoughts."
Further, how does obsession (as I understand the word) go with poly relationships?
And finally, is it possible that it all went a bit too fast?
Hope you understand that I mean no offence here, just wanting to get to something important: Is there something obsessive about submission?
1. Her obsession is definitely defined around monogamy which is partially my fault since I painted that picture for her early in our relationship. However, I believe her obsession is not fixed and will evolve to suit my demands--I hope!
2. Of course her obsession is tied to her devotion. They are both pulling the same wagon. With that thinking, as one changes direction the other shall follow. We are changing direction and I know she will adapt and give me her all no matter where I lead her. This trait is the essence of a true submissive. Her obsession will find new footholds.
3. Obsession in poly relations seems to be the rub. Obsessiveness in any relationships breeds possessiveness, and the possessiveness is what causes the heartache.
4. Speed of approach is not the problem. As with any psychological discomfort, exposure is the issue. It's either building discomfort or instant panic but all roads lead to Rome.
5. Finally, yes, I believe obsession and submission are common tandems. It's the nearly fanatical single mindedness to serve that makes my slave such a wonderful subject.
propertyofslavehaven
12-15-2011, 06:47 PM
I am a true slave. I feel it inside me. I have the need to please even as a little girl, teenager and now. I am a submissive person through and through. I never heard of Master/slave relationships until my Master told me about them. When he did i was very interested in all of it and i knew i could be a slave for him. I knew that pleasing him would come easy to me. I thought that there was nothing i wouldn't do to make him happy. I love him and worship him with every ounce of my being. He truly is my everything. Without him i am nothing because he is what makes me whole. I learned that i am a jealous person and maybe it comes from loving him so much. I know what he wants and what makes him happy. one of the things that makes him happy is having others to play with, which he does. but my jealousy behavior afterwards is a problem. I want to give him everything flawlessly. I feel like a failure as a slave because i am so jealous. It seems like im not serving him completely because we go through this jealousy problem. We have had many many talks and tried different things to overcome this problem. Master always reassures me im his number one and i will always be very special to him and he is very understanding. But there is some kind of fear inside me and i don't know what it is. I do know im selfish when it comes to my Master- that nobody deserves him like i do. I know his likes his dislikes...I don't want anyone to get a chance to get to know him like me and please him like i please him. I also know that having others to play with is one of the things that make him happy, and that is the most important to please my Master and i cant do it without the green monster coming out. The jealousy feeling is overwhelming and i want to stop it for him and me or at least keep it under control and behave in the right manor. My question is that if someone is jealous can they ever get over it or are they always jealous? I want to be a true slave to my Master. I will always worship and serve him to the best of my ability and i will never stop trying to better myself for him. I love my Master unconditionally. That is what makes this so complicated because why am i jealous if i feel so stongly about pleasing my Master????
denuseri
12-15-2011, 07:13 PM
Becuase your still a human being with all that entails regardless of which titular distinctions you wish to make or preconseptions about what being a "true" slave is and isnt all about.
Dog's Lady
12-16-2011, 02:46 AM
My lover/Master has always been poly, and he warned me from the start that, even if he stays in love with me, he will, eventually, need a little "strange." I, too, am insecure-he has much more experience, vanilla and BDSM than I do, and I worry that I will not be good enough or even enough for him. So far, he has been very supportive/complimentary towards me-he says I do things no-one else has-but I still worry that he will want/need someone better (or thinner, or younger, or braver, or just more than I am.)
We have agreed that he will warn me before he finds his "strange," and I have said that I would prefer if WE found the strange together, I think because if I see him with her, I will know by his behavior how he feels about her. I also am, what's the term, bi-curious? At my age (42, and proud of it) I hesitate to try and find a female/female relationship because I'm a little too old to fumble like a teenager. If the two of us took a third together, he could help me with what to do with her, and I would look like less of an idiot. If we found another female sub, he could teach me about topping, so I could do a better job of topping him when he wants/needs that (he is a switch-top, bottom and vanilla.)
The thing is, I know, as in have met, other women who want him. I know they exist, are not just phantoms of my fear. I just remind myself that he is with me now, not them, and try to rein in that green-eyed monster. I know that if I am too possessive, I will just drive him off. Dog, as you may have guessed, is a nickname, but it reminds me that he is not a lap dog and would resent a leash. Okay, this may be hokey, but I try to remember the old 38 Special son, Hold on Loosely, and live by it with him.
I don't know if these thoughts help any, but they should at least give food for thought.
(BTW, Oz, I get the 1 to 10 years comparison, especially since I have three lovers and one of my best friends all in one person.)
Ozme52
12-16-2011, 11:07 AM
It's hard to share if you have any doubts. But if you are truly open, it can be amazing. Whether you share during or after (meaning sharing the tales of your trysts,) it can bring you closer to your poly partner(s).
I hope that he lets you wander too. It makes sharing him ever so much easier, knowing first hand how it actually can bring you closer together.
Dog's Lady
12-16-2011, 05:29 PM
I am already wandering, sort of. I am married to someone else, although we are talking about splitting up when the economy recovers enough that we can sell the house for, oh, the outstanding mortgage? Husband knows about lover and is understanding, if not completely thrilled. Husband and I are keeping up the facade for the 8-yr old, who doesn't need to know Mom and Dad are falling apart on her.
Right now, I don't want to wander-I want my Dog, top, bottom or vanilla, or just to sleep next to for a few nights. I would like to explore a third in our relationship at some point, but I would rather do it together. I am not thrilled that Dog needs to wander on occasion, but I would rather have him wander and return than lose him because I held on too tightly. That may change someday, but for right now, I am too twitterpated with him to always think clearly about him. (Don't you just love Disney words? It's from Bambi, in case you don't remember it.)
My question is that if someone is jealous can they ever get over it or are they always jealous? I want to be a true slave to my Master. I will always worship and serve him to the best of my ability and i will never stop trying to better myself for him. I love my Master unconditionally. That is what makes this so complicated because why am i jealous if i feel so stongly about pleasing my Master????
Becuase your still a human being with all that entails regardless of which titular distinctions you wish to make or preconseptions about what being a "true" slave is and isnt all about.
That is it. We are what we are.
You talk like loving unconditionally and wanting strongly to please also means that you can do anything. But that would mean that you could - by an act of will - wipe out all your previous years that made you who you are today. It does not work that way, don't you see?
Loving, wanting to please, jealousy, they are all there, side by side. They do not cancel each other out.
Maybe the first step would be not to agonize over whether you are a 'real' slave if you are jealous. Yes you are, because you are also still the human being you were before. My guess would be that it might be easier if you let the 'true slave' problems go, stop trying to be flawless, which only the Gods are, and start simply accepting that you have this jealousy problem, and that this is a natural thing to have in a lot of circumstances. Maybe it would free energy to focus on the problem itself.
My second thought is that one of the hardest things to unlearn in our cultures is the myth about the one and only. That you can only love, or care about one person. Therefore, if you care about more than one person, you cannot be serious about the first one, or they 'loose' something. This is simply not true. Your place in his heart has your shape, no one else in the whole universe can ever fit that shape. Only you!
My third thought is if it would help if you, on your side, also found another person to play with?
My forth is that if you search the net for poly lists you will find tons of stuff about jealousy, and how people handle it.
And my last is, it may be that you simply cannot avoid being jealousy. In which case you have a choice in front of you.
propertyofslavehaven
12-24-2011, 07:25 PM
Me and my Master have been going through bad times with the jealousy issue for about a year. We never gave up on trying to find better ways to deal with my jealousy. It would work for awhile but then it eventually come back into our relationship with a powerful punch and stronger than ever. I was losing who i was and Master didnt feel like a Master and i didnt feel like a slave. We were beginning to think our Master/slave lifestyle was over because i couldnt control the monster that came out to haunt us. Our love for each other is extremely strong and we have lots of good qualities in our relationship, honesty, communication ,devotion, dedication and the will and drive to get through the toughest times. This has been one of our tough times. My sickness is gone. (jealousy) We made a breakthrough. I learned that jealousy for me is insecurties about myself and irrational thoughts that i started to believe. Nothing Master could say would help me overcome my fears and my way of thinking. I couldnt see what was really happening. All i thought was that he was going to find someone better than me and the more i became jealous and showed myself badly, the more i knew that was true. I was making my irrational thoughts come true. This became tourture for me. I was tourturing myself. COMMUNICATION! We never stoped that. Master talks things out with me. A couple of days ago we had a long talk about what we want from each other and who we are to each other and to our selfs. This talk worked and i realized that my jealousy made me blind on who my Master is and my ways of my thinking were WRONG! As my Master told me who he is and what he wants from his life the irrational jealousy was fading away, i understood him completely and wanted the same things he wanted. People who are jealous are insecure and they need to trust the other person. That was my problem. I was afraid to trust in fear losing him. I didnt want to take a chance, i held on to all those bad feelings and started to believe and trust in them instead of my Master. I was at my breaking point and i needed my jealousy behavior to end. I listened and really understood what he was saying to me. I know my Master and i have always known he is a good man, fair man, and loves me as much as i love him. He has never hurt me and has stuck by me through this when i was pushing him away with out even knowing it. He loves me, he wants the best for me and he is not trying to replace me. He is being himself and always has been doing that. It wasnt him that changed it was me and my fears that i couldnt escape. I will always be jealous just because i love him so deeply and i know that he deserves the best of the best and no one knows him as much as me. Jealousy and love are sisters. Jealousy is ok with me when it comes out in a good way and not in the destructive way. I am not very good with my words. What im trying to say is im over this "BAD JEALOUSY" I listened and opened my eyes to what was really going on in our life. My insecurities are gone and my all my trust is in my Master. Thank you for all of the advice that everyone left for us. It helped. Jealousy is a hard thing to deal with and i guess its different for each person and if there relationship is strong enough they will get through in there own way. Never give up on the things that are important.
We were beginning to think our Master/slave lifestyle was over because i couldnt control the monster that came out to haunt us.
Would you like to explain why it was your Ms realationship especially that was threathened? I mean, as opposed to your relationship as a whole? Just interested.
We made a breakthrough. I learned that jealousy for me is insecurties about myself and irrational thoughts that i started to believe. Nothing Master could say would help me overcome my fears and my way of thinking.
A couple of days ago we had a long talk about what we want from each other and who we are to each other and to our selfs. This talk worked and i realized that my jealousy made me blind on who my Master is and my ways of my thinking were WRONG!
Good for you!!
And I think you are making and important point here, that jealousy is often (fi not always) a problem within ourselves, and others cannot talk us out of it. There has to be a change in within ourselves.
People who are jealous are insecure and they need to trust the other person.
IMO though this is often the case, it is not always so. Jealousy can come from real fear as well, as in situations where there is a real and recognized risk of a break-up, or where there is too little meeting of needs, and others.
What makes it all so difficult is that sometimes you should trust yourself, if your feelings tell you that your situation is not good and makes you unhappy, even if your partner tells you that you are wrong to be jealous. Obvious example is a Master with too many slaves to make it function.
I will always be jealous just because i love him so deeply and i know that he deserves the best of the best and no one knows him as much as me. Jealousy and love are sisters.
As this is a general discussion of jealousy, I feel like saying that this sounds very wrong to me, though it may be how it is for you.
Jealousy and love are not sisters, that would mean that if you are not jealous, you do not love, that jealousy is a proof of love. This is not the case, people can love without jealousy, or they can be jealous without love (being possesive or envious, for example.)
Jealousy is ok with me when it comes out in a good way and not in the destructive way. I am not very good with my words. What im trying to say is im over this "BAD JEALOUSY" I listened and opened my eyes to what was really going on in our life. My insecurities are gone and my all my trust is in my Master. Thank you for all of the advice that everyone left for us. It helped. Jealousy is a hard thing to deal with and i guess its different for each person and if there relationship is strong enough they will get through in there own way. Never give up on the things that are important.
Good to hear that things are better :-) Jealousy is a dangerous enemy and hard to conquer, congrats that you have!
denuseri
12-26-2011, 01:19 PM
Jealousy can come from real fear as well, as in situations where there is a real and recognized risk of a break-up, or where there is too little meeting of needs, and others.
Or as part of a quite natural biological response; a response that varies depending upon the individuals, how much or how little that response is hardwired etc and situational modifiers involved. It also can be impossible to control in some circumstances and in essence be considered quite reasonable behavior for some people to exhibit and in effect be just as "ok" as not being jealous?
foxy lady
12-30-2011, 10:19 PM
dear propertyofslaveheavan....
i wish i could give you an articulated sophisticated answer like the kinksters before me, but im no different to you..
i have no advice to give on how to control or rein it in..... i am insanely possessive and jealous and protective ~ with out fail i feel this way with every one i love.
i remember brining my newborn baby home for the first time, and my best friend taking him and making stupid gurgling sounds to MY baby, i remember looking down seeing my fist clutch tight and feeling utter rage inside.
what i do know is this: jealousy springs from insecurity and doubting one self, and no amount of self-control or effort on your part will take that away from You...the ONLY person that can settle this for you, is Your Master...His love His reassurance of who and what you are to Him and Him proving His character to you...and You having enough faith in yourself and Him...to believe it.
good luck!
Me and my Master have been going through bad times with the jealousy issue for about a year. We never gave up on trying to find better ways to deal with my jealousy... My sickness is gone. (jealousy)Well done! Far too few people can get there.
We made a breakthrough. I learned that jealousy for me is insecurties about myself and irrational thoughts that i started to believe. Nothing Master could say would help me overcome my fears and my way of thinking. I couldnt see what was really happening. All i thought was that he was going to find someone better than me and the more i became jealous and showed myself badly, the more i knew that was true. I was making my irrational thoughts come true. Well seen. Insecurity - fear of loss - is nine tenths of what is called jealousy, and yes, it becomes a self fulfilling fear. My mother once observed that when someone fears they aren't loved, they respond by acting as unlovable as possible.
People who are jealous are insecure and they need to trust the other person.You're only halfway there: they also have to trust THEMSELVES. Trust that they are worth loving, trust that they are loved, trust that they are strong enough to survive if their worst fears come true and they lose that love.
My first (vanilla) love never loved me the way I loved her; she was fond of me, but I was just one of a lot of men in her life, and she never pretended differently. In some ways, that gave me a head start in giving up jealousy: there was no point being afraid of losing what I didn't have. I learnt to live with her other loves because it was either that or give her up. I learnt to be glad that there were other people who could make her happy when I wasn't there. Later, when I was in the poly scene (with a later partner) and a man asked me why I wasn't jealous, I said "You're doing good things for the woman I love. How could I mind that?"
I wrote once in another forum: "It is a conventional sign of love to say you couldn't live without someone, but there are nasty implications behind the flattery: that you stay with them because you've no choice, and they'd better stay with you or they'll have you on their conscience. More loving is to say 'I could leave if I chose, but I stay with you because I love you.'"
Or as part of a quite natural biological response; a response that varies depending upon the individuals, how much or how little that response is hardwired etc and situational modifiers involved. It also can be impossible to control in some circumstances and in essence be considered quite reasonable behavior for some people to exhibit and in effect be just as "ok" as not being jealous?
We seem to be the only primates with a pair-bonding urge. It's been argued that this is due to the greatly extended dependency of human infants: that doesn't stand up well when you consider that we also show signs of being adapted to co-operative child rearing (such as the ability of human females to lactate without pregnancy if they nurse someone else's baby for long enough,) but it might explain why a pairing that feels eternal when it starts can fade away after a few years, when an infant might be big enough not to need a couple's care.
But if it's a real instinct, it must have been overlaid on the much older primate promiscuity. And as so often happens when you add a software patch over an existing program, and launch it without enough debugging, the two sometimes interact in bizarre ways and sometimes crash completely.
There are primates that are more monogamous than humans. The cotton topped tamarin, for one.
he Cotton-top Tamarins have a monogamous breeding system and live in groups ranging from 1-19 individuals. However, the most common group sizes are from 3-9 individuals. These groups consist of a dominant mated pair, their young of the year, and a few subordinate or young animals of both sexes. These subordinate members tend to form small groups and migrate in and out of the home range of the main group. ....Males put forth more effort in caring for young than the females. The father assists at birth and carries the young all of the time exept when the mother is feeding.
Or as part of a quite natural biological response; a response that varies depending upon the individuals, how much or how little that response is hardwired etc and situational modifiers involved. It also can be impossible to control in some circumstances and in essence be considered quite reasonable behavior for some people to exhibit and in effect be just as "ok" as not being jealous?
IMO all feelings are natural. We have them, they are our feelings, we are not responsible for those, but we are responsible for our actions. Jealousy is a legitimate feeling, and should be respected as such. But it causes so many problems, and is so painful, I find it very useful to have a good thread about it. Often I think it is like fear of bereavement, but as opposed to actually loosing someone- which, however painful, you do get over someday - it does not go away! It just goes on and on, if you cannot find a way to deal with it. Yes, definitly something to be taken seriously and to work with.
Impossible to control? Do you mean as in being sad, or yelling, or as in killing your partner so no one else can have her/him? I think all violent feelings are hard to control, but with this as with others - hate, fear etc - we are asked to control them. Jealousy is just one other, if you see what I mean. I do not think it should 'rate' as being more understandable if you commit violence out of jealousy, than if you do it out of hate. In fact, violence out of jealousy is, to me, very much like hate. It certainly isn't love - not to me! Though this might be a very good point to discuss!
Reasonable behaviour? Again, I am not quite sure what you are thinking of, except that it is a feeling we get often, sometimes for realistic reasons, sometimes for our own inner reasons. I think we should be 'allowed' to show our feelings, and not have some of them put in a box called 'unacceptable'. They are there, they are our feelings and part of us, we should not be reduced to censorship or self-censorship! But on the other hand I do not think it should be cultivated or encouraged, the way the mono-culture often do. I think these problems are much better handled if treated like problems, not moral questions.
denuseri
01-04-2012, 03:06 PM
All I mean thir is that it is what it is, if one is jealous it's not right to say oh well too bad deal with it cause the jealous one must be at fault.
In so far as getting violent...there is such a thing as a crime of passion, additionally, amongst primates it's not uncommon for the mated pairs to drive off even kill rivals but I doubt the op's case is in any way associated to this though it is most certifiably is where the natural response comes from.
"Well seen. Insecurity - fear of loss - is nine tenths of what is called jealousy, and yes, it becomes a self fulfilling fear. My mother once observed that when someone fears they aren't loved, they respond by acting as unlovable as possible."
I disagree. Jealousy is a header with many emotions behind it. Insecurity is one, possesiveness is just as common, so is envy, realistic fear, and deprivement.
All I mean thir is that it is what it is, if one is jealous it's not right to say oh well too bad deal with it cause the jealous one must be at fault.
Quite. That was what I meant.
In so far as getting violent...there is such a thing as a crime of passion, additionally, amongst primates it's not uncommon for the mated pairs to drive off even kill rivals but I doubt the op's case is in any way associated to this though it is most certifiably is where the natural response comes from.
Hate is also a passion - should a hate crime be seen more leniently because of it?
Ozme52
01-07-2012, 12:35 PM
Hate is also a passion - should a hate crime be seen more leniently because of it?
Not to sidetrack but.... No. If hate generated fear or rage perhaps. But real "hate crimes" aren't crimes of passion. That kind of hate is a learned response and very little true emotion goes into them. (IMO)
In so far as getting violent...there is such a thing as a crime of passion, additionally, amongst primates it's not uncommon for the mated pairs to drive off even kill rivals but I doubt the op's case is in any way associated to this though it is most certifiably is where the natural response comes from.Among humans, what we call a crime of passion usually seems to mean killing the partner who has left or threatened to leave (and, in an increasing number of cases, their children.) I defy you to find an animal equivalent to such an evolutionarily self-destructive behaviour.
On the other hand, in a human context it does make sense in terms of a collective need to control. In the same way that rapists are the allies of men who want to keep women clinging to them for protection, these jealousy-berserkers are the allies of all the men who want to be sure their partner daren't leave.
There are primates that are more monogamous than humans. The cotton topped tamarin, for one.
....Males put forth more effort in caring for young than the females. The father assists at birth and carries the young all of the time exept when the mother is feeding.OK, I didn't know that. Interesting. Any other examples worth sharing?
denuseri
01-08-2012, 06:48 AM
Hate is also a passion - should a hate crime be seen more leniently because of it?
Of course not that would be just silly.
denuseri
01-08-2012, 07:03 AM
Among humans, what we call a crime of passion usually seems to mean killing the partner who has left or threatened to leave (and, in an increasing number of cases, their children.) I defy you to find an animal equivalent to such an evolutionarily self-destructive behaviour.
Not where I am from...its more likened to killing the person who one thinks just killed their loved one, or killing a cheating spouse on the spot when caught in the actual act, and never ever involves killing children...in fact its often legally considered a far lesser charge or completely justified or forgivable.
Animals like male lions kill the young they think doesn't belong to them all the time and amongst wolves only the mated alpha pair is allowed to actually mate...get caught humping in the pack outside that arrangement and you will be driven off or killed. The textbook cases with a chimps attempting to kill and or harm rivals in numerous situations are too many to document here but happen all the time ask any primateolegist about how violent our cousins in the wild can be it's no far stretch I am proposing to the forum here.
On the other hand, in a human context it does make sense in terms of a collective need to control. In the same way that rapists are the allies of men who want to keep women clinging to them for protection, these jealousy-berserkers are the allies of all the men who want to be sure their partner daren't leave.
Understanding how such things function in our animal friends provides valuable insight at times in understanding ourselves.
Not to sidetrack but.... No. If hate generated fear or rage perhaps. But real "hate crimes" aren't crimes of passion. That kind of hate is a learned response and very little true emotion goes into them. (IMO)
I beg to disagree - hate crimes are some of the most emotional there are, and they do not get any less from being taught to hate from early years.
In the same way, if we are taught that jealousy crimes are normal and understandable, there will be more of them.
There is to me a big difference between understanding and accepting jealousy, and accepting crimes because of jealousy.
Sorry, that was from me, thir.
I just watched a Nature show on mustangs. A crippled foal was born, and when it couldn't keep up with the band they started to abandon it. Another herd moved in, and many showed solicitous interest in the baby, until the stallion got there. He took one sniff and then violently killed the baby. Both his own herd and the original herd tried to fight him off but it was no use. It was hard to watch. It's the same thing lions do if a male comes upon cubs that are not his own.
This has a lot to do with jealousy. It's a way of ensuring more resources for his own babies by getting rid of someone elses.
Not that we need to act in horrible ways like animals sometimes do, because we hopefully have more control of ourselves and understand right and wrong, but I think our feelings are rooted in the fact that we are animals.
I have a question about non jealousy, in a situation when jealousy might be appropriate or expected. Where does that come from? I'm thinking of times when various things have happened when another person might have been extremely jealous, and I'm just not. At all. If anything, I was amused. So, what does that mean?
I just watched a Nature show on mustangs. A crippled foal was born, and when it couldn't keep up with the band they started to abandon it. Another herd moved in, and many showed solicitous interest in the baby, until the stallion got there. He took one sniff and then violently killed the baby. Both his own herd and the original herd tried to fight him off but it was no use. It was hard to watch. It's the same thing lions do if a male comes upon cubs that are not his own.
This has a lot to do with jealousy. It's a way of ensuring more resources for his own babies by getting rid of someone elses.
I do not know enough about animals to know if they can be jealous in the human sense of that word. But the situations we were taking about concerns humans killing their own children, not someone elses'.
Re denuseri: I cannot know how things go in your area, but in other parts of US, in DK, and here in UK there are indeed examples of parents killing their children along with a spouse who wanted to leave. In fact, we had one tragic example right in our own street where we live, and this is actually a quite calm and peaceful neighbour hood normally.
I personally think that acceptance of jealousy violence is absolutely wrong - murder is murder, whether or not it involves adults or children, or both. I would guess that we all have at least one area where we think murder is justified - maybe revenge, racism, gays, infedelity, people who harm helpless others, or whatever. But the law is no killing, and to prevent everything from becoming hopeless, we must, as I see it, condemn murder - always.
Not that we need to act in horrible ways like animals sometimes do, because we hopefully have more control of ourselves and understand right and wrong, but I think our feelings are rooted in the fact that we are animals.
I think so too, we may think that this or other reaction comes from animal life, but does it? And if it does, does that make it ok?
Killing is, to me, about seeing other people as your possession. But we do not own each other, at least not normally. And, in cases where there is an ownership and M/s relationship, does that mean that it is ok for the Master to kill an unfaithful slave?
I have a question about non jealousy, in a situation when jealousy might be appropriate or expected. Where does that come from? I'm thinking of times when various things have happened when another person might have been extremely jealous, and I'm just not. At all. If anything, I was amused. So, what does that mean?
I do not think that jealousy is ever apppropriate, as such, any more than there are situations where you aught to be happy, or angry, or sad, or whatever. But as for not being jealousy when many others might be, be happy that you are not - you escaped a very painful feeling!
As for what it means - probably that you are a very whole and balanced human being.
I just watched a Nature show on mustangs. A crippled foal was born, and when it couldn't keep up with the band they started to abandon it. Another herd moved in, and many showed solicitous interest in the baby, until the stallion got there. He took one sniff and then violently killed the baby. Both his own herd and the original herd tried to fight him off but it was no use. It was hard to watch. It's the same thing lions do if a male comes upon cubs that are not his own.
This has a lot to do with jealousy. It's a way of ensuring more resources for his own babies by getting rid of someone elses.
I do not know enough about animals to know if they can be jealous in the human sense of that word. But the situations we were taking about concerns humans killing their own children, not someone elses'.
Re denuseri: I cannot know how things go in your area, but in other parts of US, in DK, and here in UK there are indeed examples of parents killing their children along with a spouse who wanted to leave. In fact, we had one tragic example right in our own street where we live, and this is actually a quite calm and peaceful neighbour hood normally.
I personally think that acceptance of jealousy violence is absolutely wrong - murder is murder, whether or not it involves adults or children, or both. I would guess that we all have at least one area where we think murder is justified - maybe revenge, racism, gays, infedelity, people who harm helpless others, or whatever. But the law is no killing, and to prevent everything from becoming hopeless, we must, as I see it, condemn murder - always.
Not that we need to act in horrible ways like animals sometimes do, because we hopefully have more control of ourselves and understand right and wrong, but I think our feelings are rooted in the fact that we are animals.
I think so too, we may think that this or other reaction comes from animal life, but does it? And if it does, does that make it ok?
Killing is, to me, about seeing other people as your possession. But we do not own each other, at least not normally. And, in cases where there is an ownership and M/s relationship, does that mean that it is ok for the Master to kill an unfaithful slave?
I have a question about non jealousy, in a situation when jealousy might be appropriate or expected. Where does that come from? I'm thinking of times when various things have happened when another person might have been extremely jealous, and I'm just not. At all. If anything, I was amused. So, what does that mean?
I do not think that jealousy is ever apppropriate, as such, any more than there are situations where you aught to be happy, or angry, or sad, or whatever. But as for not being jealousy when many others might be, be happy that you are not - you escaped a very painful feeling!
As for what it means - probably that you are a very whole and balanced human being.
sorry - I repeated my own post.
I think it would be useful to discuss jealousy in more general terms. Here are cuts from an article:
UNMASKING THE GREEN-EYED MONSTER:
By Kathy Labriola, Counselor/Nurse
"Despite how enlightened we think we are, most of us experience jealousy if our spouse or lover has a sexual relationship with someone else."
"We tend to think of jealousy as a single emotion, but actually it is a whole bundle of feelings that tend to get lumped together. Jealousy can manifest as anger, fear, hurt, betrayal, anxiety, agitation, sadness, paranoia, depression, loneliness, envy, coveting, feeling powerless, feeling inadequate, feeling excluded. It often helps to identify what is the exact mix of feelings you experience when you feel jealous. What is the primary emotion you feel when you are jealous? Demystifying the exact components of your jealousy can be a giant step towards getting a grip on things and resolving the problem. Is it always the same for you or does the mix change from time to time depending on circumstances? "
"It is crucial to understand what jealousy is and what it is about. Jealousy is about fear--fear of the unknown and of change, fear of losing power or control in a relationship, fear of scarcity and of loss, and fear of abandonment. It is a reflection of our own insecurity about our worthiness, anxiety about being adequate as a lover, and doubts about our desirability."
"For every jealous feeling there is an emotion behind the jealousy that is much more significant than the jealousy itself. Behind jealousy there is an unmet need or a deep fear that our needs will not be met. Recognizing those fears and unmet needs is the key to unmasking jealousy and taking away its power. Jealousy is just the finger pointing at the fears and needs we are afraid to face. When jealousy kicks in, it is the ancient reptilian part of our brain going into a "fight or flight" response because we feel that our very survival is threatened. When you feel jealous, ask yourself, "What is it that I am really afraid of? What do I need to make this situation safe for me?" "What is the worst thing that could happen and how likely is that to happen?"
http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/Poly/Labriola/jealousy.html
"We're not encouraged to even consider that we can focus on overcoming jealousy, and the only control we have is over our partner's actions. As a result, by taking away the triggers, we never get the opportunity to explore our inner insecurities and experience the wonderful growth that it can provide."
http://www.serolynne.com/poly_jealousy.htm
"Jealousy is not the problem; jealousy is the SYMPTOM of the problem."
"The problems are magnified even more if you try not to let your fears and your feelings show. One key to making the relationship work is to talk about your fears, openly and immediately, EVEN IF YOU THINK THEY'RE IRRATIONAL. Often, naming your fears, bringing them into the light, deprives them of their power."
"Since jealousy usually has its roots in some other emotion, such as fear of loss or feelings of rejection or insecurity or whatever, then often the only way to cope with the jealousy is to deal with the underlying emotions. If you find that your jealousy is rooted in fear, for example, the next step is to explore why you are afraid, and what you are afraid of, and if there's anything you can do to allay that fear. Confronting the jealousy head-on without addressing the things that lie beneath it is often an exercise in frustration."
http://www.morethantwo.com/jealousytheory.html
"Many different people feel jealous from time to time. Jealousy is easy to deal with, once you understand what it's teaching you. Here are some pointers on working through your emotions and feelings of jealousy."
http://www.wikihow.com/Handle-Jealousy
Hope some of this can help.
Flaming_Redhead
01-10-2012, 04:55 PM
Has anyone had or have jealousy problems in thier relationship and how did they get passed it?
I haven't had a problem with jealousy because Master is very strictly monogamous. However, he has had problems with jealousy because I'm...more of a free spirit. The solution was to change certain behaviors by correcting the way I think. It's a process.
You should probably read "The Ethical Slut."
Ozme52
01-10-2012, 08:58 PM
I beg to disagree - hate crimes are some of the most emotional there are, and they do not get any less from being taught to hate from early years.
In the same way, if we are taught that jealousy crimes are normal and understandable, there will be more of them.
There is to me a big difference between understanding and accepting jealousy, and accepting crimes because of jealousy.
We may have a definition problem between English and American usage.
I read (and answered the original question) with the assumption that "hate crime" is a crime commited specifically against someone because of their religion or ethnicity. Yes, because one group "hates" another, but I'd say that was based strictly on being taught ones prejudice and nothing to do with any real emotional basis of the type that occurs with jealousy or a crime of passion.
Semantics. I'm not happy with my definition using hate as part of the explanation.
Among humans, what we call a crime of passion usually seems to mean killing the partner who has left or threatened to leave (and, in an increasing number of cases, their children.) I defy you to find an animal equivalent to such an evolutionarily self-destructive behaviour.
Not where I am from...its more likened to killing the person who one thinks just killed their loved one, or killing a cheating spouse on the spot when caught in the actual act, and never ever involves killing children...in fact its often legally considered a far lesser charge or completely justified or forgivable.
Maybe it's a cultural thing, but I had the impression from the news that it happened in the US as well. As may be, in this country we have had a distressing number of cases where someone has reacted to his (it's invariably a man) partner leaving, or threatening to leave, by killing her and their children. (One was literally just down the road from our house.) That is, to make it perfectly clear, the children of himself and the departing spouse. I repeat, I doubt very much whether you will find any non-human parallel to such counter-evolutionary behaviour.
You'd be surprised what animals under extreme stress will do. And yes, I have heard of things equally awful or more from them.
We may have a definition problem between English and American usage.
I read (and answered the original question) with the assumption that "hate crime" is a crime commited specifically against someone because of their religion or ethnicity. Yes, because one group "hates" another, but I'd say that was based strictly on being taught ones prejudice and nothing to do with any real emotional basis of the type that occurs with jealousy or a crime of passion.
I am not sure where the problem lies, exactly? I too see hate crimes as traditionally the ones where groups hate other groups for whatever reason. But other crimes can be committed because of hate of a more 'personal' nature, if such an expression may be used. I do not think it is really the right one, but cannot think of any other.
To me, the expression 'a crime of passion' is simply used to gloss over murders out if jealousy or obsessive feelings of ownership. To me, the socalled 'passion' is an enraged feeling that someone is getting away from them. It cannot be grief, I do not think you kill out of grief, and it certainly cannot be out of love. The use of that word, love, is, again to me, a gross abuse of what that word means. Putting in connectin with taking someone's life is - gross..
If you love someone, again according to my world view of course, you want them happy. You do not want them dead.
Semantics. I'm not happy with my definition using hate as part of the explanation.
I see. Howver, to me the unhappiness comes with using 'love' as an excuse for murder.
I saw an article with this theme which I found interesting:
What is it about jealousy that historically and even nowadays so many find is an acceptable excuse for murder?
'Crime of passion' is no defence
Gaby Hinsliff, chief political correspondent
The Observer, Sunday 19 January 2003 02.22 GMT
TheFreeDictionary
"crime of passion n. a defendant's excuse for committing a crime due to sudden anger or heartbreak, in order to eliminate the element of "premeditation." This usually arises in murder or attempted murder cases, when a spouse or sweetheart finds his/her "beloved" having sexual intercourse with another and shoots or stabs one or both of the coupled pair. To make this claim the defendant must have acted immediately upon the rise of passion, without the time for contemplation or allowing for "a cooling of the blood." It is sometimes called the "Law of Texas" since juries in that state are supposedly lenient to cuckolded lovers who wreak their own vengeance. The benefit of eliminating premeditation is to lessen the provable homicide to manslaughter with no death penalty and limited prison terms. An emotionally charged jury may even acquit the impassioned defendant. (See: murder, manslaughter)"
'Crime of passion' is no defence"
Gaby Hinsliff, chief political correspondent
The Observer, Sunday 19 January 2003 02.22 GMT
Article history
"Husbands who claim their partner's nagging or infidelity drove them to kill will face much tougher sentences under a government shake-up of so-called 'crimes of passion'.
Ministers are secretly reviewing the defence of provocation, which has its origins in the bygone tradition of men fighting duels, under which a defendant can evade a murder charge by arguing that their victim did or said something that made them lose control.
Ministers argue that it reflects a medieval view of marriage, in which a man whose honour is insulted by a domineering or unfaithful wife is entitled to fatal revenge rather than a divorce. It also encourages defendants to blacken the victim's name in court, painting her as a bad wife.
The review will prompt impassioned debate over modern relationships, with critics likely to argue that men instinctively respond differently than women to infidelity and that 'feminising' the law is unfair.
'This defence institutionalises the blaming of the victim - "I killed her, but it was all her fault" - and we say we are going to put the victim at the heart of the crim inal justice system,' said a Whitehall source."
read more:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/jan/19/ukcrime.prisonsandprobation
To me, the expression 'a crime of passion' is simply used to gloss over murders out if jealousy or obsessive feelings of ownership. To me, the socalled 'passion' is an enraged feeling that someone is getting away from them. It cannot be grief, I do not think you kill out of grief, and it certainly cannot be out of love. The use of that word, love, is, again to me, a gross abuse of what that word means. Putting in connectin with taking someone's life is - gross..
One of the reasons modern lawmakers are unhappy with the concept is that, historically, it has almost exclusively been a man's defence. I don't have statistics for this, but I do have folklore! In the best known ballad of a woman's "crime of passion," Frankie and Johnny, every version that describes Frankie's eventual fate agrees that she is executed - even though, as the version I learnt in school says, the Judge and jury all accept that "He was her man, but he done her wrong."
Those who still defend the legal concept are reduced to arguing that men are inherently less stable than women and liable to temporary insanity in such situations - a claim which the same people would furiously reject if it were advanced by some female-supremacist. (I have a half-written novel, set in a matriarchial world, where the excuse for oppressing men is that their instinctive urge to violence makes them unfit for responsible positions in a civilised society. But I wasn't intending that seriously.)
Historically, the justification for this has been more to do with inheritance than jealousy. The expression "cuckold" for a man whose wife is unfaithful is derived from "cuckoo" because, originally, what was supposed to be enraging him was the possibility of another's eggs in his nest. (Yes, Denuseri, very sociobiological, though it was the inheritance of property and rank rather than of genes that concerned the people who coined the term.) But since the gender bias remains (for every "Fatal Attraction" female jealousy-killer, there are a jailfull of men whose last words to their ex were "If I can't have you, no-one can,") even though most people outside the 1% have little property to leave and little concern who gets it, I suspect that inheritance was always an excuse for urges that ran much older and deeper.
It's possessiveness, not the practical consequences of loss, that makes you destroy something rather than let someone else have it. If someone burns down a house rather than let it be repossessed, the law does not consider the fact that they felt desperately possessive to be a mitigating factor. So perhaps the root of modern changes in the law's attitude is that we no longer feel it reasonable to be insanely possessive about a person.
So perhaps the root of modern changes in the law's attitude is that we no longer feel it reasonable to be insanely possessive about a person.
A very good thing, IMO!
It's possessiveness, not the practical consequences of loss, that makes you destroy something rather than let someone else have it. If someone burns down a house rather than let it be repossessed, the law does not consider the fact that they felt desperately possessive to be a mitigating factor. So perhaps the root of modern changes in the law's attitude is that we no longer feel it reasonable to be insanely possessive about a person.
I do not know about reasonable - feelings have precious little to do with reason! I think the point here is that though you might feel possesssive about someone, you are not entitled to kill them.
Having said that, I wold like to speak of a situation of my own many years ago. My then husband found another woman, did not tell me about it, lied for two years, took her into our home for Godssake, in our own bed..It was never a home to me after that.
I had all the emotions people have in these situations - I could not take it in, had no idea, could not - would never ever in a million years have thought that he would lie to me, felt invaded, confused - the pain was killing me. I also felt angry. In fact, a white hot rage. I had fantasies - many fantasies - about getting a gun and shooting him right between the eyes..I had it many times, and it helped me.
It is hard to get a gun in Denmark, but I might have if I tried real hard. That would have made it premeditated. What would have happened if I had actually done it?
Let's see, I would have killed a man I actually still loved. I would have caused his parents and 4 sisters unspeakable pain, people who were completely innocent. I would have caused my own family pain. I would have spent the next 4-16 years in jail. I would not later have met my two other husbands, who I love more than anything in the world, and would not loose for worlds. And I would not have had my stepson.
I guess thats my point. You have a right to the feelings - to any feelings. But not the right to kill.
Ozme52
01-20-2012, 10:37 AM
Sorry. I wasn't arguing the point I guess. I agree, you have the right to the feelings, though the ones based on generic hate are just plain ignoriant imo. But not the right to kill, (except in self defence, and you better be truly in jeopardy.) I just think the term hate crime (by the definition I gave) is a totally different kind of act than a crime of passion. (But I don't condone those being "justified" or de facto to be deserving of a lighter sentence.
I do believe in legitimate hate, I came to hate an individual for his behavior to me and my partner, and came to believe her to be in danger. I seriously considered killing him, had a plan should I become convinced of the danger, and was ready to act on it. I also expected to get caught, genius though I am ;) , and expected to pay for it. I chose to wait for that very reason. He ended up dying in prison for a murder for hire he committed. So I was right to fear, plan, and as it turned out, waiting.
I just think the term hate crime (by the definition I gave) is a totally different kind of act than a crime of passion. (But I don't condone those being "justified" or de facto to be deserving of a lighter sentence.
I guess I am trying to ask the question of whether a crime passionel is a crime of love, or a crime of hate?
denuseri
01-20-2012, 04:14 PM
Technically its a crime of temporary insanity isn't it?
Ozme52
01-20-2012, 04:15 PM
Neither. It's a crime of greed and avarice. Jealousy is about fear of loss...
Technically its a crime of temporary insanity isn't it?
But that beggers the question of what made people go insane, and why it is so accepted - if it is? In fact, I have a mind to start another thread about love, seen from many angles.
Neither. It's a crime of greed and avarice. Jealousy is about fear of loss...
So I wonder if crime passionel is an extension of jealousy - I mean, that the actual loss makes people go crazy? Or is it a matter of frustrated possessivess - or what is it??
Ozme52
01-21-2012, 11:53 AM
Technically its a crime of temporary insanity isn't it?
I think they now call it diminished capacity. It used to be an excuse to let off an avenging husband, condemn and incarcerate a jealous wife, and basically enforce the rights of male ownership of chattel wives... but those times have mostly passed. I don't know what a diminished capacity ruling begets you but at least it begets both genders more or less the same result.
Ozme52
01-21-2012, 11:54 AM
So I wonder if crime passionel is an extension of jealousy - I mean, that the actual loss makes people go crazy? Or is it a matter of frustrated possessivess - or what is it??
It used to be, but that was the legal excuse and not, imo, a real happenstance.