I pee Marine?

[denuseri]

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta on Thursday harshly condemned alleged behavior in a video that appears to show U.S. Marines urinating on the corpses of Taliban fighters. The Pentagon chief said he'd ordered a full investigation into the alleged incident, which comes amid sensitive diplomatic initiatives to try to advance reconciliation talks with the Taliban.


"I have seen the footage, and I find the behavior depicted in it utterly deplorable," Panetta said in a press statement sent to Yahoo News Thursday. "I condemn it in the strongest possible terms."
Pentagon investigators have already identified two of the four U.S. Marines who appear on the video.


"A Marine official said Thursday that the four were members of the 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marines, which returned to its home base in North Carolina last fall after a tour in Afghanistan," the AP report said. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss an ongoing criminal investigation, said that "at least some of the four Marines are no longer in that battalion," the AP said.


The video--which went viral after being posted to YouTube on Wednesday--appears to show four American Marines urinating on the corpses of three Taliban fighters. (Due to its graphic content, Yahoo has posted an edited version of the posted video from ABC News, which you can see above.)
"Have a nice day, buddy,' one of the alleged U.S. Marines said on the video.


Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Thursday "condemned the video, describing the men's actions as 'inhuman' and calling for an investigation,".

Panetta called Karzai Thursday to convey his horror at the alleged incident and promise a full investigation, Pentagon spokesman George Little said.


Panetta told Karzai "that the conduct depicted in the footage is utterly deplorable, and that it does not reflect the standards or values American troops are sworn to uphold," Little told journalists in a press readout of the call Thursday. "The Secretary also noted in the conversation that he has ordered that the video be immediately and fully investigated."


Panetta ordered the Marine Corps and the top U.S commander in Afghanistan Gen. John Allen to launch an immediate and full investigation of the alleged incident, which will hold the responsible parties accountable for their conduct.


He was joined in his condemnation by Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John McCain (R-Ariz.), who said the alleged behavior by a few individuals in the video does not represent the honorable conduct and service of hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops.

[MMI]

I consider the behaviour disgusting and unforgivable - and that's by Western standards. What were those soldiers thinking? They simply cannot have failed to realise what they were doing. They probably didn't realise they were being filmed, or that the video would be posted on YouTube. But that's no excuse.

To the Afghans, whose attitude towards the treatment of the dead is different from Western standards, that behaviour will be regarded as so much worse. It is not surprising they are calling for the Marines concerned to be identified and punished, and I don;t blame them.

[Thorne]

To the Afghans, whose attitude towards the treatment of the dead is different from Western standards, that behaviour will be regarded as so much worse. It is not surprising they are calling for the Marines concerned to be identified and punished, and I don;t blame them.
While I don't condone what they did, let's not forget the many instances of Taliban fighters torturing and mutilating their prisoners, before and after death, so they could post their own videos. I would agree to appropriate punishment for these soldiers if they would agree to punish their own. But I wouldn't expect that, since they want the double standard: "we can do it, but you can't."

[StrictMasterD]

They said on the news tonight (1-12-2012) that 2 of the four Marines have been identified and for now have been restated
Yes what they did was deplorable, ect and regardles of anyones feelings toward the war or the Taliban, the last thing the United States needs to do now is incite them inmore violence
But a spokesman for the Taliban said aboutthe video he does not see it having any effect on the "Peace Talks"
who know maybe them peeingon the corpes is THEIR idea of Waterboarding

[denuseri]

My owner was saying the other night that its a prime example of poor or no leadership.

[IAN 2411]

To the Afghans, whose attitude towards the treatment of the dead is different from Western standards.
Like Thorne I don’t condone what they did, but let me put you straight on Middle Eastern custom. While serving in Aden I 1966 with the UKSF. Patrol Coy was caught in an ambush in the crater district 26 killed....the shit bags that done it...then cut their balls off and sowed them to their mouths...so please don’t brag up their one sided religion to me.

Be well IAN 2411

[LadyArana]

I've been having a very heated discussion about this exact topic with my stepfather via Facebook. There's a post circulating on the social networking site that reads as follows:
Time for a vent: A video is going around of Marines peeing on some dead terrorist. These terrorist will bomb, behead, kill without a care and rip the fabric of America and hate us at all levels. Yet people are in a uproar and demanding a investigation into it and want them punished? Marines trained to kill, did their job protecting the US from the enemy and acted like Men at War. They were dead and not getting any deader and deserved to be pissed on for wanting to destroy America. They want a investigation to punish? I want a investigation so they have be given a ticker tape parade as Heros, How many medals can we give them? Say thank you for supporting and defending America. If this offends you, decide if you like living in America and know that having freedom some times come with blood Ours and the enemy. If you like it repost

To which my response was:
How is pissing on and defiling a corpse defending America? If anything it furthers the "ugly American" stereotype. These marines should rightfully be courtmarshalled for conduct unbecoming of a United States Marine. Are they under a lot of stress? Yes. Are they in a war zone? Yes. What proof do we have that the deceased was a terrorist? How do we know that these men weren't doing this despicable act to an innocent civilian? Not every citizen of Iraq or Afghanistan is a terrorist. Terrorists, in fact, make up a very small portion of the citizens of these countries because they are extremist factions. How would we like it if the entire world looked at what these Marines, or the men and women responsible for the alleged waterboarding torture at Gitmo and thought that all Americans were as amoral as these people seem to be? No corpse, terrorist or not, should be defiled. By Christian standards, it's wrong. By Pagan/Wiccan standards, it's wrong. By Islam standards, it's wrong. By standards of DECENCY it's wrong. And by the standards of the Uniform Code of Military Justice which these Marines are expected to uphold, it's wrong. I'm sorry, but they SHOULD be punished, if nothing else, then for libel against the United States.

[StrictMasterD]

I've been having a very heated discussion about this exact topic with my stepfather via Facebook. There's a post circulating on the social networking site that reads as follows:
Time for a vent: A video is going around of Marines peeing on some dead terrorist. These terrorist will bomb, behead, kill without a care and rip the fabric of America and hate us at all levels. Yet people are in a uproar and demanding a investigation into it and want them punished? Marines trained to kill, did their job protecting the US from the enemy and acted like Men at War. They were dead and not getting any deader and deserved to be pissed on for wanting to destroy America. They want a investigation to punish? I want a investigation so they have be given a ticker tape parade as Heros, How many medals can we give them? Say thank you for supporting and defending America. If this offends you, decide if you like living in America and know that having freedom some times come with blood Ours and the enemy. If you like it repost

To which my response was:
How is pissing on and defiling a corpse defending America? If anything it furthers the "ugly American" stereotype. These marines should rightfully be courtmarshalled for conduct unbecoming of a United States Marine. Are they under a lot of stress? Yes. Are they in a war zone? Yes. What proof do we have that the deceased was a terrorist? How do we know that these men weren't doing this despicable act to an innocent civilian? Not every citizen of Iraq or Afghanistan is a terrorist. Terrorists, in fact, make up a very small portion of the citizens of these countries because they are extremist factions. How would we like it if the entire world looked at what these Marines, or the men and women responsible for the alleged waterboarding torture at Gitmo and thought that all Americans were as amoral as these people seem to be? No corpse, terrorist or not, should be defiled. By Christian standards, it's wrong. By Pagan/Wiccan standards, it's wrong. By Islam standards, it's wrong. By standards of DECENCY it's wrong. And by the standards of the Uniform Code of Military Justice which these Marines are expected to uphold, it's wrong. I'm sorry, but they SHOULD be punished, if nothing else, then for libel against the United States.

Could not agree with you more, these Marines are a DISCRACE to the Marines, The Military, The United States
I do not care what there PERSONAL beliefs are regarding the war, the HAVE TO REMEMBER THEY VOLUNTEERED their service, THEY DID NOT GRT DRAFTED which makes it even worse if that is even possible

[thir]

My owner was saying the other night that its a prime example of poor or no leadership.

Did he mean that poor attitudes will go down the levels? Or that these (and a host of other things) will happen from time to time, if the leaders do not keep a short leash on their troops?

I think in either case it sounds right, but then begs the question why the leaders have this attitude? Or is it simply that they are not good enough?

[thir]

While I don't condone what they did, let's not forget the many instances of Taliban fighters torturing and mutilating their prisoners, before and after death, so they could post their own videos. I would agree to appropriate punishment for these soldiers if they would agree to punish their own. But I wouldn't expect that, since they want the double standard: "we can do it, but you can't."

To me the answer is the usual: by lowering your own standards, you become what you fight. And you have lost.

[Thorne]

To me the answer is the usual: by lowering your own standards, you become what you fight. And you have lost.
I'm not suggesting we lower ourselves to their standards, but that we require them to rise to ours before acceding to their demands. Discipline the soldiers, by all means, quietly and anonymously. But don't kowtow to the Taliban by releasing their names.

And also remember the precedents you might set. Want to get sent home? Just piss on a dead Afghani!

[IAN 2411]

The only thing that was wrong with what they did was allow themselves to be filmed doing it. As they were Marines and Special Forces they should have had better security when carrying out their ablutions. But oh dear they are bringing America into disrepute and shame, it’s a bit too late for that because the damage has already been done. This should have been swept under the carpet after a quick condemnation of the offence to the world press and then move on. What will happen now is that those Marines will get shit on because of a lot of assholes in the, American Congress, that would like to be seen as cleaner than clean.

So they pissed on a load of shit and because the shit was wearing clothes its wrong. Let’s put it this way, these guys that were being pissed on by the Marines. If it could have been proved to be the ones that help plan, 9/11 twin towers, or the London Underground atrocities, then this conversation or the one in the white house would not be taking place. Get over it the bodies are empty shells.

Be well IAN 2411

[denuseri]

Did he mean that poor attitudes will go down the levels? Or that these (and a host of other things) will happen from time to time, if the leaders do not keep a short leash on their troops?

I think in either case it sounds right, but then begs the question why the leaders have this attitude? Or is it simply that they are not good enough?

He certainly doesn't condone their behavior despite understanding it. He did say that if their commander was better they wouldn't have done what they did short leash or not and that the ultimate responsibility for their actions rests at his feet.

[MMI]

While I don't condone what they did, let's not forget the many instances of Taliban fighters torturing and mutilating their prisoners, before and after death, so they could post their own videos. I would agree to appropriate punishment for these soldiers if they would agree to punish their own. But I wouldn't expect that, since they want the double standard: "we can do it, but you can't."

Does that translate as, "They do worse than us, so they must stop before we do? Stop complaining!"

[MMI]

Like Thorne I don’t condone what they did, but let me put you straight on Middle Eastern custom. While serving in Aden I 1966 with the UKSF. Patrol Coy was caught in an ambush in the crater district 26 killed....the shit bags that done it...then cut their balls off and sowed them to their mouths...so please don’t brag up their one sided religion to me.

Be well IAN 2411

Do you take comfort from what they did, then? I don't think the US Marines had that unfortunate patrol in mind when they pissed over the corpses of the Taliban fighters. I wonder what they did have in mind.

PS: I've just read your next post, Ian, and, I'm sorry, but you're talking bollocks, vindictive bollocks.

With respect.

[IAN 2411]

Do you take comfort from what they did, then? I don't think the US Marines had that unfortunate patrol in mind when they pissed over the corpses of the Taliban fighters. I wonder what they did have in mind.
I don’t take comfort from it but neither do I condemn them for doing it. The person I condemn is the person that filmed it and plastered it all over U Tube. He really was a good citizen to the United States of America to go public. That Marine has made his country look sad in the eyes of the rest of the world. I would also think that the person that filmed it was also a Marine, and it is he that is the disgrace to his uniform, the Marine Corps and to his country. He is the man that those other Marines rely on to look after their ass, and not to drop them in the shit right up to their neck. The person that filmed it all taking place has now got his five minutes of fame and given the United States of America a lifetime of humiliation. I am in no doubt that pissing all over the enemy made them feel good, and I am not against any soldier taking relief wherever he can. I wonder if that is just an isolated case or does that happen often? Now there’s a thought.

Get over yourself MMI and get off of the pedestal you sit on, you run with the pack with no constructive ideas of your own. It is very easy to read a book on Quantum Physics and then come on site talking over my head, but I talk life like the people in the real world.

Well let me tell you this I have asked a lot of English people about that film, and they couldn’t give a fuck one way or the other. Must be us British getting fed up with our soldiers getting killed because of The United States of America’s trigger happy Presidents.

I have spoken to 6 ex UKSF Vets from my unit. They have all given me the same answer, in that the guy doing the filming would now be in an intensive care unit. Why? It would be because they were still looking after the ass of their comrades that were in the film. They would be doing what it is now impossible for them to do. It is called the buddy, buddy system but unless you have been in that situation you would know nothing about that. I would condone that as well, because if it was me in the same position I would expect nothing less. And before you get upset and shout I am a person with no morals, you would be wrong I do have a few left. [But not many]

There have been occasions when I feel that you are not talking the same conversation as me, but I am too polite to call you out. Take your bleeding heart to a priest, and after he has told you it’s alright son God still loves, “You,” but those Marines are bad men and won't go to the Promised Land. Then shove a M16 in his guts a tell him to fuck off over there and do better.

PS: I've just read your next post, Ian, and, I'm sorry, but you're talking bollocks, vindictive bollocks. With respect.
Probably, but no more than you, I am who I am and I’m not perfect, but you put your self over as someone that is above criticism. If you had respect for me then you would not have written the PS. I do hope we can have another useless conversation like this again sometime, because it helps to keep my heart pumping. One other thing MMI, it is my opinion, so are you telling me now I am not entitled to one?

Be well [and I really do mean that] IAN 2411

[Thorne]

Does that translate as, "They do worse than us, so they must stop before we do? Stop complaining!"
No, not at all. The soldiers should be punished, though not nearly as severely as some people seem to think. What they did is surely conduct unbecoming a Marine.
But yes, the Taliban should stop complaining, at least until their own hands are much cleaner. The US owes them no apologies, no reparations, no acknowledgement of their demands at all until they themselves become at least civilized enough to abide by the Geneva Convention.

[MMI]

...

One other thing MMI, [the views in my previous posts represent] my opinion, so are you telling me now I am not entitled to one?

IAN 2411

I don't think I suggested you aren't entitled to an opinion. I just wish it were different and I said so.

[MMI]

No, not at all. The soldiers should be punished, though not nearly as severely as some people seem to think. What they did is surely conduct unbecoming a Marine.

But yes, the Taliban should stop complaining, at least until their own hands are much cleaner. The US owes them no apologies, no reparations, no acknowledgement of their demands at all until they themselves become at least civilized enough to abide by the Geneva Convention.

You seem to be saying, Let's keep a sense of proportion here. The marines do deserve some punishment, but for the Marine Corps' sake, not the Taliban's.

I agree. Unequivocally. As someone on another site said,


I can see a demotion in rank, loss of pay for a month, even KP duty (Do they still do that?), or even worse, kicking these guys off of the sniper team, that would be about the worse punishment you can think of. But if they get thrown to the wolves and get booted out of the military with a dishonorable, or have to serve even one day of jail time, I will be outraged and I hope the rest of the sane people thru out the world will be as well.

I don't think pissing over a dead body justifies imprisonment, but I do think it raises questions about a person's suitability to serve in the armed forces, because the civilians served by the military do not expect it. Killing the enemy is one thing: that's what US Marines are trained to do. Defiling a corpse is something else.

[Thorne]

I agree. Unequivocally.
This is getting downright spooky! One of us is obviously not feeling too well. ;)

[IAN 2411]

Let's keep a sense of proportion here.
Now that film has been made viral keeping a sense of proportion will be almost impossibility. There will be those in the press that think they are a little bit morally right than others and it will most probably run.


I don't think pissing over a dead body justifies imprisonment,
I agree with that, but that film was their knife in the back.

but I do think it raises questions about a person's suitability to serve in the armed forces,
When in a combat situation and the fire fight is over, you realise your still alive but the adrenalin is still pushing through your body at a tremendous speed. The mind is not working properly because the adrenalin is pushing you on a high. There is no training that can compensate for the real thing it can only prepare you for the event. Neither can training predict the strength of mind in advance, that everyone knows at its best is unstable in the strongest of people, at some stage in a person’s life it lets you down then stupidity takes over.


because the civilians served by the military do not expect it.
What do they expect? What do you expect? I expect the military to go and do the job that is expected of them in any damn way that stops others having to finish the task. I expect there to be the small atrocities on both sides because that is the way forces get results and the way wars go. I expect it to be done without me being told in detail how it was done. I am relieved that it is them doing it now and not me, as I have done my bit. I will not throw the first stone at someone that has done something stupid in action, because under the same circumstances it could have been me.

As I said in my earlier post, I do not condone what they did but neither will I condemn them. The person that should have the guilt for that mild atrocity against the dead is the person that filmed it. He has shamed his country and the Marines, by placing it in a humiliating position in the eyes of the world. To be honest he has given away military secrets!!! I will ask again is this an isolated case? Do I really care or would I care if they were British? No I would only care if there was another dick head filming them and making it public.

The militarily, train and expect their soldiers to go and kill while fighting for their country without a conscience. I do not think it right because of one stupid act for any soldier to be given a conscience for his actions on his return home.

Be well IAN 2411

[denuseri]

Personally I wish to see them punished in a manner that is free from any and all public scrutiny or influence, fair and in keeping with the high standards of the corps as per the UCMJ.

That and nothing more.

If that means jail time I will be disappointed to say the least.

If it means they get kicked out of the Marines I will personally also still be disappointed.

If their commanding officer and their platoon Sergent are not also punished appropriately I will be even more disappointed.

The person who leaked the film; if a Marine, certainly didn't follow the proper procedure for reporting the incident and should also be punnished accordingly.

[thir]

I'm not suggesting we lower ourselves to their standards, but that we require them to rise to ours before acceding to their demands.


Not doing anything is accepting that behaviour.



And also remember the precedents you might set. Want to get sent home? Just piss on a dead Afghani!

I am under the impression that marines are volunteers. Is that wrong??

[denuseri]

Volunteers or not one may not wish to be repeatably rotated to a war zone over and over...not to mention not being allowed to get out when one's enlistment is over due to "stop loss".

I know some people who have spent the better part of their time in the military deployed to one forgien war or another with as little as two weeks per rotation back spent stateside unless they had to attend a special school etc.

[Thorne]

Not doing anything is accepting that behaviour.
I didn't say they shouldn't do anything. They certainly deserve some punishment. But it doesn't have to meet the desires of the Taliban, or anyone else. It only has to meet the requirements of the Corps.


I am under the impression that marines are volunteers. Is that wrong??
They voluntarily enlist, yes. But once signed on, they are under contract for a minimum term, which can be extended by the authorities in time of war. They can request certain assignments, but in the end they are subject to the needs of the military. Given the runaround the government has been giving these "volunteers", it's surprising they can get anyone to enlist at all.

[MMI]

I would point out that it isn't only the Taliban who are calling for their punishment, the Afghan government have called for it too. The outrage is felt on both sides, but not all Afghans are our enemies ... or at least, they weren't.