Codependency in M/s relationships

[this.is.me]

I recently posted on another vanilla relationship forum about a particular issue I was having with my boyfriend (my master). It was immediately pointed out to me that I am being extremely codependent on him. He still wants me to have my own life, he isn't taking that away from me, it is my doing. I was just wondering if anyone else has encountered this issue and if it is normal considering the dynamic of the relationship?

[VeniVidi]

It would not surprise me in the least that in a large number of D/s or M/s relationships the bottom was codependent. The site I use for psychological information is mentalhelp.net and an example quote from there is "... a codependent submerges their needs for those of the other ..." which I know happens to subs (and from what I understand that is what can take some into sub-space). The subject has arisen for me twice now during negotiations (sadly neither of which worked out), and I would now recommend it be discussed between partners in our lifestyle as a possibility. The information on that site tells you what to look for and how to cope with it (from both sides).

Hope this helps
VV

[Sirdred]

I consider myself a Dom/Master and as I have journeyed on this path I have found my share of codependent issues within me, as well as within others. I think that both sides of the M/s and D/s relationship can have codependent issues. I have found by facing the feelings including the fears, helpful in understanding what lies beneath the issues associated with codependency. During times when I reflect and try to understand why it is that I myself even seek an M/s or D/s relationship, I have discovered many aspects of myself that has required thinking and processing. The existential question of being (who we are, why we are, etc.) is a fundamental question that I have. I have been in a 12 step fellowship which has openned up all kinds of self-understandings that have related to who I am and what is a relationship in general. I know that there is a 12 step fellowship for codependents. If one is a codependent, I would recommend seeking out a group. The magic that is worked by being in a group of people that understand your issues and who will accept you as you are, works wonders on the one who is in need.

For me, facing the question of codependency and wondering if life is insane as the result of being codependent, is a question worth exploring. Especially when it relates to those who seek to submit and for those who seek to control or dominate.

When I consider a sub/slave to journey with, one thing I look for is how codependent that person maybe. The psychologic health of my charge is one of the most important parts of the relationship. I want my sub/slave mentally healthy so that her life can be lead to the fullness that if can be. The roles we take on in the relationship are mutually benificial, even when one takes on the Dominate role verses the sub. There is something deep and meaningful when one chooses to be a sub/slave to another. For me I want the choice to be given freely. One of the beauties of a good relationship is the completeness of being that comes from it.

[this.is.me]

Thanks for your input. I am still not completely comfortable with just how much I depend on my Master sometimes but at least I know I am not totally off base.

[thir]

I recently posted on another vanilla relationship forum about a particular issue I was having with my boyfriend (my master). It was immediately pointed out to me that I am being extremely codependent on him. He still wants me to have my own life, he isn't taking that away from me, it is my doing. I was just wondering if anyone else has encountered this issue and if it is normal considering the dynamic of the relationship?

Do you yourself think you are co-dependant? A person on a list cannot know more about your life than you do.

The concept of co-dependancy came up in connection with alcoholic relationships, but has been watered down to mean just about anything and nothing. The description 'if you value the relationship more than you value yourself' is thought provoking, or if you your are in a relationship where you feel a compulsion to try to make it work, and your partner does not.

But if you want your own life, and functions like a normal adult, then I would forget about what they say on the vanilla site. The thing is, BDSM relationships tend to be intense and deep, often more so than vanilla, and that can sound frightening to other people. That does not mean that you are codependant.

[Austerus]

I don't think that codependency, by itself, is a negative thing in an M/s relationship. Assuming everyone is happy with the situation as-is and is getting their needs met then more power to them. That said, if one person wants codependency and the other doesn't then there's a mismatch in expectations from the relationship, which is going to be a big problem over time.

[ksst]

I don't really understand the concept of co-dependency, it was always one of those psychology terms I could not wrap my head around. But I do know a lot of Masters actively cultivate dependency, neediness, and internal enslavement in their slaves. Mine does not, but it it kind of an easy path to roll down for some of us.

[this.is.me]

What is had basically come down to was I want to make a big change in my life, I don't like the town I live in and I am ready to move. My Master wants to move eventually but isn't ready yet, still needs to do some things. I had been asking if I was wrong of me to put my plans on hold to wait until my boyfriend is ready to join me in the move.

[ksst]

I do not think you were wrong at all to wait for him. I don't think it's even a dependency issue. But then, that is my perspective.

[thir]

What is had basically come down to was I want to make a big change in my life, I don't like the town I live in and I am ready to move. My Master wants to move eventually but isn't ready yet, still needs to do some things. I had been asking if I was wrong of me to put my plans on hold to wait until my boyfriend is ready to join me in the move.

I think it quite ordinary that a couple try to stay together. If that is all this is about, then forget about 'co-dependence.'

[thir]

If you want to read about this, you might find this illuminating:

http://www.aic.gov.au/en/publications/previous%20series/proceedings/1-27/~/media/publications/proceedings/27/dear.ashx

Here is my taking on this concept:

If you look it up, chances are that you will find many many websites which will list so many symptoms that anyone will realize that they are seriously ill and must spend loads of money getting better. There are even those who call it 'a life-threathening disease'.

The topic of above article is that the term was coined many years ago in connection with families or couples with alchoholics. The theory was that the familiy members would get mentally ill - co-dependency syndrome - by having this kind of dysfunctional family. It then got to mean any substance abuse such as drugs, incest families, gamler families, families with mentally ill members and other situations. And now it means just about anybody.

The problem with this whole concept was - and is - that it was never investigated in any empirical research or any other way - it has never been proven or even made likely, that such a syndrome exists.

"Treatment programs for codependents have been developed and hundreds of
self-help books on codependency have been published. Typically these books
comprise discussions of the characteristics of the codependent person,
disclosures of personal experience, case histories of codependents, explanations
of why long-term therapy is seen to be required, and advice on self-change
strategies. Such books sell extremely well and an entire industry has developed
around them. Leading writers tour the world conducting workshops and
seminars, therapists advertise that they provide treatment for codependency, and
numerous support groups and family counselling services have developed
programs based on the codependency model.
Such developments have all taken place in the absence of any research
support for the model and the lack of an accepted formal definition for the
proposed syndrome."

It goes on with what in academic language is a serious reprimand: It calls people who keep on promoting the co-dependency idea 'victomologists' and remind professionels that they

"need to be vigilant in relation to the various conceptual models which emerge in the popular literature. In concentrating on our own theoretical models it is easy to lack an awareness of the degree of influence
which popular models can exert despite their lack of rigour and empiricism. We
need to remember that a crucial aspect of the academic’s role is to monitor and
investigate those models that emerge from the lay movement."

That said, no one says that you do not get problems living with alchoholics or drug abusers or violent people or whatever. But the essence of above is that you should not mistake (more or less effective) survival strategies for a mental disease.

Also, it is true that it is easier to have a peaceful divorce than a stormful one, it is more difficult to leave a bad relationship than a good one. That is still not a sign of mental disease.

It has been pointed out that some people with real low self-esteem can get in bad relationships because some jerk (m/f) realizes they are easy pray. That is still not a mental disease, and what it needs, seems to me, is help to grow as a person, to know that in birth you were given a value that nothing can change even if your heart says otherwise right now, and that you have a right to someone who loves you and should not take shit from people who think otherwise.

If you are happy in your relationship, then forget about 'co-dependency' and enjoy your life, it is just a name for a money-machine.

If you are not happy, then I hope you will talk to someone.

I hope some of all this helps, or that something else will.

[leo9]

I think it quite ordinary that a couple try to stay together. If that is all this is about, then forget about 'co-dependence.'

I'm reminded of Chesterton's comment about the way psycho-babble medicalises normal human behaviour - "like saying a man has a proboscis in the middle of his face, or that he falls down in a coma for eight hours every day." If you need each other and want to stay together, are you "co-dependent"? Or are you just in love?

I'm planning to move to Sweden, partly because I love the place, but mostly because thir needs to go there and I want to stay with her. I don't call that "co-dependent," I call it wanting to be with someone I love. Sounds like you are the same.

[ksst]

Thank you thir and Leo9, that was really helpful.

[Destructive_Bonds]

Personally, I believe that all relationships; be it vanilla or D/s can be termed as "co-dependent". Like many have already said,"co-dependency" is such an umbrella term that it can refer to almost any selfless act within a relationship. I quite agree with Austerus in the sense that if everyone in the relationship is happy, then where is the harm?

To conclude, if you are content, what does it matter how the "outside" world perceives your relationship. Surely all the matters is how you feel and how your Master/Mistress/Partner feels?

In regards to ksst, I would personally say that you are merely being a good submissive, and putting your Master and your relationship first. If you are content in doing this, then it is not co-dependent it is simply love.

[kurious-kitten{KM}]

I am kinda in the same boat. Pardon me for jumping into the conversation and (probably) forgetting that I have commented, but I wanted you to know that you are not alone. I've had many people tell me (even kinky friends from here) that I depend far too much on my Master for my own happiness. Before I started anti-depressants, he simply gave me a reason to "perform" well, to do well in school and life and go through the motions. When I'd do something quite simple, such as actively taking care of myself, he would be happy and give praises, which made me smile and feel I was worth something.
Now, making him happy makes me happy. Making him laugh in times of high stress (at work, bad day, etc) and knowing that I've boosted his mood at least a little bit, that is what makes me happiest. I now know I have other reasons to live: I have family, novels in progress, and a plan to make an impact in foster childrens' lives. Those are all future things that I'm working towards, which is helping me become less dependent on him, but on bad days I still do depend on him, go through the motions to please him.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... Don't get uncomfortable with your relationship just because someone else (even multiple others) doesn't approve of how your relationship works. Mine has been criticized many times. If you think on the topic and do decide that they have a point and that you are a bit too dependent on your Master, you could point it out to him and ask his honest advice. You could take little steps away from each other (I know my life before I gained control over the depression revolved around him. My sleeping pattern changed to fit his so we could talk into the a.m. hours; I basically only did things that he requested, such as eat regular meals instead of only when i was hungry...which was once a day or so. ETC). I don't mean that you should stop being close, but that you should each have hobbies and things away from each other (especially if you do a lot together).

I hope I was of at least some help.

~Kitten

[leo9]

I now know I have other reasons to live: I have family, novels in progress, and a plan to make an impact in foster childrens' lives. Those are all future things that I'm working towards, which is helping me become less dependent on him, but on bad days I still do depend on him, go through the motions to please him.

And that's what proves your relationship is a healthy one, regardless of how it looks to vanilla onlookers: that he's encouraging you to grow outside your submissive role, not pushing you into more dependence on him.