Questions in pertains to Master and Slave Relationships and punishment and etc...

[CuriousPursuit]

Hello all, I am interested in learning about the motivations involved in BDSM in particular the Master and Slave aspect of it. I will admit my motivations for this inquiry are most likely quite a bit different then most, as I have no intention of engaging in the community or any specific act. The reason for my inquiry is actually due to the absolutely visceral nature in which i negatively react to the idea of being involved in a M/S relationship. I know this may seem counter intuative but I have often found trying to understand those things that I am viscerally opposed to has been a catalyst for great personal growth and acceptance. I apologize if this is not the correct place to inquire about these types of questions but my psychological research has only taken me so far and I thought it best to hear from those in the community so as to gain a better understanding of the culture and the reasons behind it. Before getting in to the meat of my questions I would like to give a little background about myself so as to give more context to my motivations. I am a MTF or (Male to Female) Trans person on the verge of starting hormones, (and to just add this as well I am not PC and I cannot stand SJW's). I was sexually and emotionally abused through most of my childhood and abandoned and disowned at the age of 18. I have been nearly homeless 4 seperate times, but have managed to work my way through completing my 4 year BA in Business Management from a high ranking State Univiersity and am currently making a decent living as a Vaulation Analyst for a real estate company. Unfortunately as a result of past trauma i suffer from severe depersonalization and PTSD as well as other comorbities at least from what my therapist says. So I am by no means a pillar of mental health but I have made a life I am proud of and for the most part happy with. The reason I bring this up is due to my curiousity with possible child hood experiences effecting our sexual attitude later in life, in my case I had not had sex until 26 but in the two years since I have been quite permiscuous in my sex behavior having 17 different partners, I am not sure if this is possibly due to prior abuse or just a high sex drive. But I was curious if there might be any correlation between BDSM and specific childhood experiences, please keep in mind this is just a supposition, and one I would love to receive any and all feedback on. My next question and one that should hopefully be a bit more cogent is directed more toward those on the submissive end and is perhaps the biggest question I have. I understand the want to be submissive sexually as I find being sexually controlled in a firm but respectful way to be one of the most liberating feelings in my life, and it has done wonders to heal some of the sexual damage from my childhood. But as someone who desires and works toward my individual freedoms I cannot fathom giving any control of who I am to anyone, let alone full control to someone. I understand that what I may say next may come across as somewhat vitrolic and perhaps offensive, if this is indeed the case I apologize as the following will most likely show some of the viscerality of my emotional reaction and is not meant as an attack on how people live there lives, it is merely meant to show case my current thoughts on the matter and to promote discussion and hopefully an addressal of these emotionally skewed thoughts by those who are experienced in the community. Now disclaimer aside I cannot for the life of me understand the idea of giving up complete agency to another person and seperately I cannot understand the concept of punishment and degradation and humiliation, this to me shows a complete lack of self respect and personal worth and is an ultimately destructive practice for the one receiving such treatment. And as someone who has had to endured unjust pain, punishment, abuse and humiliation, and has actively worked to fight back against these kind of behaviors. I emotionally find the practice of it to be self destructive idiocy from people who don't truly understand how much these type of behaviors warp and damage the person's sense of agency and sense of self worth. And if I am to be quite frank it brings out abit of my psychopathic rage that has been built up as a result of trauma. As it makes me want to smack the shit out of people who engage in this type of behavior, as internally I want to keep anyone from ever having to endure that kind of pain. Given the fact that I know I would not quantify as a qoute un qoute "normal" person I am still very interested in any response the community would be willing to give as to some of there own motivations for some of these actions, as I very much would like to gain a better understanding of the reasons behind the community and hopefully arrive at a more knowledgable and healthier of understanding of the community and its practices as a whole.

Thank you for your time and any feedback you would be willing to give
SageoftheFourWinds

[Numinosity]

At no point in your almost 1000 word post do you at any point mention trust or caring for your partner, which gives me the suspicion that you just look at the sex, and don’t care for the relationship due to your past experiences with other people. BDSM and especially the slave/master relationship is about trust and love. And when you write about sex in ways such as this:

The reason I bring this up is due to my curiousity with possible child hood experiences effecting our sexual attitude later in life, in my case I had not had sex until 26 but in the two years since I have been quite permiscuous in my sex behavior having 17 different partners, I am not sure if this is possibly due to prior abuse or just a high sex drive.
You give me the impression that sex and relationship are two different things in your mind. Trust is such a huge part of BDSM, that it (in my opinion) overshadows the sex. It is about giving up your body to another person/taking control of the body of another person. Unless people felt completely safe, they wouldn’t do this. These types of relationships are about bringing pleasure (and the most delicious forms of pain) to yourself and your partner. To be with a partner who you trust to such a degree is a beautiful thing, so when you write about it with words such as “self-destructive”, it comes off to me as condescending.

You give me the impression that this is really not about you wanting to learn more about the BDSM mindset, but rather is an attempt to rationalize and deal with your past trauma. I’m sorry that life has been tough on you and you seem to have a lot of things you need to get off your chest. This place is open and has a lot of caring and awesome people who I am sure is open for a chat should you want to talk to them. Thanks for taking the time to write this post and welcome to the site.

[Denzark]

But I was curious if there might be any correlation between BDSM and specific childhood experiences,

An abnormally high number of bdsm'ers I have met have experienced some form of serious sexual abuse. I wonder as well if there is correlation. A significant number of those claiming abuse in my opinion seem to be inventing or exagerating the abuse. I suspect the correlation (if any) may be an indirect one. I notice that many who have been abused have no problem talking about their nightmare experience and enjoy the sympathy they receive as a result.

Perhaps some people believe that saying their wicked stepfather used to cage them in the basement and cruelly whip them makes them more easily accepted in the "community" or that they will be higher on the totem pole. Perhaps ithey are attention seekers. Attempt to discuss this correlation seems to be met with a "how dare you". Perhaps its because it opens the lid on fibbing, deception and fraud, which is a road many do not want to go down.

There must be psychological research out there on the relation between abuse and bdsm.

I cannot for the life of me understand the idea of giving up complete agency to another person

Nor can I and I dont believe it exists as such. Much of bdsm is sexual fantasy and roleplay. Its easy to exagerate or pretend that the roleplay extends into everyday real life. In many cases a bdsm couple are a husband and wife who live a normal married life outside the bedroom but will refer to themselve within the bdsm community as master slave.

The slave does not give up complete agency to another. From time to time female slaves (sub) will post about how beastly the master was by doing this, expecting this or forgettting an anniversary. Nobody will say the master is well within his rights. All will offer sympathy to the sub and agree how beastly the master is.

The escape clause is the (supposed) masters obligation to love and care for the slave. Not sure of the origin of this obligation other than it being the same as for vanilla marital relationships. It is certainly not reflected in historical slavery. This fine print means in effect the slave not only retains control but can even exert it. Consider this dialogue.

Master: We are going out to eat Chinese tonight
Slave: But I dont feel like eating Chinese.
Master: Tough, I'm the master and I say we're eating Chinese.
Slave: But you are supposed to love and care for me. You must take my feelings into consideration and I dont feel like Chinese, i prefer Italian.
Master: Well if you feel that way we'll eat Italian,

Master Slave rarely exists in real life. It is poetic license. Forget any images of Romans or southern plantations. The closest it gets to slavery is marriage of yesteryear where the man was master of the house and whilst he may whip her with his crop she would lash him with her tongue such that a happy balance was achieved.

[CuriousPursuit]

At no point in your almost 1000 word post do you at any point mention trust or caring for your partner, which gives me the suspicion that you just look at the sex, and don’t care for the relationship due to your past experiences with other people. BDSM and especially the slave/master relationship is about trust and love. And when you write about sex in ways such as this:

You give me the impression that sex and relationship are two different things in your mind. Trust is such a huge part of BDSM, that it (in my opinion) overshadows the sex. It is about giving up your body to another person/taking control of the body of another person. Unless people felt completely safe, they wouldn’t do this. These types of relationships are about bringing pleasure (and the most delicious forms of pain) to yourself and your partner. To be with a partner who you trust to such a degree is a beautiful thing, so when you write about it with words such as “self-destructive”, it comes off to me as condescending.

You give me the impression that this is really not about you wanting to learn more about the BDSM mindset, but rather is an attempt to rationalize and deal with your past trauma. I’m sorry that life has been tough on you and you seem to have a lot of things you need to get off your chest. This place is open and has a lot of caring and awesome people who I am sure is open for a chat should you want to talk to them. Thanks for taking the time to write this post and welcome to the site.

I'll be honest I think you hit the nail on the head to a good extent, my apologies if this came off as condesending, it wasn't meant to be. As result of my past I think i have compartmentalized the both sex and relationships out of a lack of trust. My other reason for asking these now evidently emotionally skewed questions is I have had an on going fwb with a dominant who has been very kind and gentle in his treatment of me, yet firmly dominant in most things. He has helped me immensely to deal with my trauma. And has been a great mentor to me in a lot of things. He wanted to start a dom/sub relationship with me and I kind of freaked internally and I think he could tell even though I tried to approach it calmly and respectfully, he hasn't brought it up since. The thing that scared me is that I loved the idea of being watched over and to a certain extent controlled by him it put me at peace and calmed my mind immensely, it put me at ease in a way I couldn't understand nor comprehend. That scared the ever loving hell out of me, as everyone who has ever had any control over me has used it for their own satisfaction to the detriment of my own happiness and well being, as such I have built up my freedoms in rebellion against that, as i see most people as inherently self serving with only a few exceptions. So the fact that being controlled by someone could make me happy scared the shit out of me and shook my perception of self in a way only confronting my trauma has done. I'm not entirely sure how to handle the situation and due to the fact I am transitioning he has made it clear that he will not continue our FWB sexually but would still like to have a normal friendship, which is fine with me at the current point. I guess my major question is should I take any further action on these newly realized feelings, and also how can I reconcile that with my burning desire for complete freedom (or atleast as close an approximation to it as this world allows), that if I get down to brass tacks that is the real question I am trying to answer. I also fear losing my edge as a person and I take my intellectual pursuits and career plans very seriously as intellectual freedom and personal success are very important to me, as I desperately crave stability, as I have never had it until recently. I am sorry if this thread has come off as a bit too self serving and I probably should have spoken with more candor from the get go, but it is exceedingly hard for me to truly trust people.

Sincerely
Fenea

[CuriousPursuit]

Re: Questions in pertains to Master and Slave Relationships and punishment and etc...
But I was curious if there might be any correlation between BDSM and specific childhood experiences,

An abnormally high number of bdsm'ers I have met have experienced some form of serious sexual abuse. I wonder as well if there is correlation. A significant number of those claiming abuse in my opinion seem to be inventing or exagerating the abuse. I suspect the correlation (if any) may be an indirect one. I notice that many who have been abused have no problem talking about their nightmare experience and enjoy the sympathy they receive as a result.

Perhaps some people believe that saying their wicked stepfather used to cage them in the basement and cruelly whip them makes them more easily accepted in the "community" or that they will be higher on the totem pole. Perhaps ithey are attention seekers. Attempt to discuss this correlation seems to be met with a "how dare you". Perhaps its because it opens the lid on fibbing, deception and fraud, which is a road many do not want to go down.

There must be psychological research out there on the relation between abuse and bdsm.

I cannot for the life of me understand the idea of giving up complete agency to another person

Nor can I and I dont believe it exists as such. Much of bdsm is sexual fantasy and roleplay. Its easy to exagerate or pretend that the roleplay extends into everyday real life. In many cases a bdsm couple are a husband and wife who live a normal married life outside the bedroom but will refer to themselve within the bdsm community as master slave.

The slave does not give up complete agency to another. From time to time female slaves (sub) will post about how beastly the master was by doing this, expecting this or forgettting an anniversary. Nobody will say the master is well within his rights. All will offer sympathy to the sub and agree how beastly the master is.

The escape clause is the (supposed) masters obligation to love and care for the slave. Not sure of the origin of this obligation other than it being the same as for vanilla marital relationships. It is certainly not reflected in historical slavery. This fine print means in effect the slave not only retains control but can even exert it. Consider this dialogue.

Master: We are going out to eat Chinese tonight
Slave: But I dont feel like eating Chinese.
Master: Tough, I'm the master and I say we're eating Chinese.
Slave: But you are supposed to love and care for me. You must take my feelings into consideration and I dont feel like Chinese, i prefer Italian.
Master: Well if you feel that way we'll eat Italian,

Master Slave rarely exists in real life. It is poetic license. Forget any images of Romans or southern plantations. The closest it gets to slavery is marriage of yesteryear where the man was master of the house and whilst he may whip her with his crop she would lash him with her tongue such that a happy balance was achieved.

In repsonse (sorry quote response was kind of glitchy for some reason)

Ok thank you very much this explains a lot more to me. I was always under the assumption from what I have seen and heard that the whole concept entailed complete loss of agency and any form of control. and this runs incredibly counter to my path in life and my views on the importance of individual freedoms and self determinance. But from what you are saying it sounds more like just a different form of relationship structure, that still has its power struggles and challenges but with a more defined set of roles and rules that govern the relationship, which makes a lot more sense. And I think I understand where Numinosity was coming from now. My apologies if my post offended anyone, I honestly am still pretty ignorant to all of this and I believe my past experiences have skewed a great deal of my perception on this community, and per my response to Numinosity I seem to hold a possible prediliction to being a bit of a submissive, and that has scared me quite a bit as I do not want my freedom impeded. Ironically for years my ideal man has been someone who could subtly but firmly control me but not impede my freedom or autonomy. I crave love and stability as I've never had it until recently and have always if I'm being honest longed to be lovingly owned by someone, to be protected and cared about like I was their treasure, and on the flipside work to make sure I can see their smile everyday. It has always been an emotional longing of mine and one that I cannot seem to allow myself to embrace, as the part of me that has been tempered by the world, and is proud of my achievements in life views this as vulnerability and weakness and thinks it will take away my intellectual edge, personal drive and will, should I allow myself to give in to it. This is more or less one of the biggest paradoxes of my life,and one that even with therapy I have not been able to broach effectively. Im sorry to bring such personal matters to a public forum such as this but I am really kind of at a loss as to how to tackle this, and I have tried multiple avenues ranging from the application of buddhist and Toaist meditation and principles, to intense psychological and scientific research, to asking friends and family about this issue. None of which could help me address the issue, so I thought I would go to the source of my discomfort and ask those who have experience in the community for possible advice. Again my apologies if this comes off as too self serving.

[Denzark]

The concept does involve complete loss of agency but the reality is it's roleplay or poetic license. Slavery is illegal. When somebody calls themselves an office slave have they lost all control of lives. Ask somebody who calls themselves a slave a few simple questions about their everyday lives. Do bdsm slaves have a bank account and manage their finances. How are decisions on vacations, restaurants, furniture etc taken. What happens if you are not in the mood for sex and the master is. I;m sure you will find they are just like a married couple who call themselves master and slave. Your perception may not be skewed, It may be the information being given to you is skewed.

Numinosity post was largely off topic. You posed 2 clear questions and instead of addressing them he raised a totally different issue, which in my view is off base. Love and caring is to be expected in all relationships but is not required for something to be considered bdsm. Many bdsm'ers play with people they barely know. There is no love or particular care there any more than there is with any casual sex. If somebody says to a stranger please whip my ass for 5 minutes then leave me, would Numinosity question whether that was bdsm.

The trust aspect is just common sense part of Sane Safe Consensual. You need to know the partner isn't a mad axeman. But this is no different than normal sexual activity other than the nature of the activities is more dangerous so more can go wrong either by accident or design,

To be honest I do not follow your predicament or longing. Control yet not impede freedom is not an unusual concept or desire. Control can be done by dis/en couraging just like parent or teachers do over children. It can be done in a mock master manner eg "I forbid you to smoke that cigarette or wear that make up". But if the slave said "Screw you I'm doing it anyway" there is little the master can do. The aura of control "I forbid" is more powerful than a simple "Please dont". It is largely an illusion but illusions can be powerful and real.

[iseult]

o.k, so addressing the question about childhood experiances shaping adult sexuality, to my mind there can no doubt that this is a true statement. most childhood experience shape adult behaviour to some extent. It is not a direct correlation (and this is where the nature verses nuture debate comes in) but it has to contribute.

I do think though that your question is more about wether sexual abuse be that in childhood or in adulthood shapes sexuality. and I think that that is a different and more difficult question to answer.

I would personally doubt that was a proportionately high number instances of sexual abuse in the past of BDSM practitioners than 'vanilla' adults. I would imagine that it would be far more likely that for what ever reason, people who find themselves involved in the community also have personality traits that would make them more likely to share there experiences, or possibly that the very deep and intense bond that can develop in this community makes it easier for abuse victims to admit and discuss what has happened.

In terms of mental health and BDSM there are many good peer reviewed studies that suggest that practitioners of BDSM have better mental Heath on the whole than a case controlled group of equivalent sexually active adults.


unfortunately this view is a relatively modern way of thinking and In fact the most recent addition of the manual of mental health disorders (the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders or DSM-5) does list some aspects of BDSM as potentially problematic. BDSM is listed in the DSM-5 as a paraphilia, or unusual sexual fixation, but this has been a very controversial addition, and subject and as written, the DSM-5 does not label BDSM a disorder unless it causes harm (mental health harm) to the practitioner or to others.

I would argue that anything that causes mental harm to yourself or others would be seems as problematic, by the very diffinition ! Also in fairly recent history women where put away in mental instatutuions some times for life and subject to horrific 'treatments' for the inexcusable perversion of masterbation.

The truth is that many modem study's have found that practitioners of bondage, discipline, sadism and masochism, or BDSM, score better on a variety of personality and psychological measures than "vanilla" people who don't engage in unusual sex acts.


*shrugs*

Interesting subjects to be sure.

good luck in your search for understanding.

[CuriousPursuit]

Thank you everyone very much for the information and feedback. It has been an immense help to me in trying to understand both the community and some of my own issues with vulnerability. To be honest I'm still not entirely sure where I fall with all of this yet, but I believe it has much to do with the fact that I have never truly allowed myself to be vulnerable as a person, usually for good reason as every time I have tried to be vulnerable I have been betrayed and suffered immensely for it. With the help of this forum and my own self reflection I believe I emotionally may seek a certain level of submission as a means of trying to find a safe way to express my vulnerability, and deal with letting go of a lot of my repressed emotional damage, as well as to learn to truly trust in someone again. I'm not entirely sure how to proceed but much of what I have learned from all of your responses has certainly brought to light deep seeded emotional desires and longings that I have largely repressed, out of fear of showing my more submissive and ultimately more vulnerable side. I had often wondered why I had such a vitrolic negative reaction towards this community, yet also such a deep fascination for it. I think that it can't hurt to take a small step into expressing some of these desires and see perhaps if it is something that might work for me. I apologize to ask for any other advice as I have probably already taken up enough of it, but would any of you have any suggestions on how best I could safely begin to explore these desires?

Again Thank You
Fenea

[iseult]

Never apologise for asking questions!

A good place to start is exploring the forum, looking for stories, poems or topics that interest you and reading and learning. Introduce yourself, make freinds. Although I rearely use it I understand that Chat can be a good way to meet like minded people, and I certainly have taken part in some of the discussion groups run by velvetpaws, and they are excellent.

As with anything in life letting yourself be vulnerable comes with trust in those you are vulnerable around and time, it's not something that is an instant 'fix' you can get the illusion of 'vulnerability' and 'submission' without these things but that is it.

Good luck! there are plenty of friendly folk about!

[TheDeSade]

Hello all, I am interested in learning about the motivations involved in BDSM in particular the Master and Slave aspect of it. I will admit my motivations for this inquiry are most likely quite a bit different then most, as I have no intention of engaging in the community or any specific act. The reason for my inquiry is actually due to the absolutely visceral nature in which i negatively react to the idea of being involved in a M/S relationship. I know this may seem counter intuative but I have often found trying to understand those things that I am viscerally opposed to has been a catalyst for great personal growth and acceptance. I apologize if this is not the correct place to inquire about these types of questions but my psychological research has only taken me so far and I thought it best to hear from those in the community so as to gain a better understanding of the culture and the reasons behind it. Before getting in to the meat of my questions I would like to give a little background about myself so as to give more context to my motivations. I am a MTF or (Male to Female) Trans person on the verge of starting hormones, (and to just add this as well I am not PC and I cannot stand SJW's). I was sexually and emotionally abused through most of my childhood and abandoned and disowned at the age of 18. I have been nearly homeless 4 seperate times, but have managed to work my way through completing my 4 year BA in Business Management from a high ranking State Univiersity and am currently making a decent living as a Vaulation Analyst for a real estate company. Unfortunately as a result of past trauma i suffer from severe depersonalization and PTSD as well as other comorbities at least from what my therapist says. So I am by no means a pillar of mental health but I have made a life I am proud of and for the most part happy with. The reason I bring this up is due to my curiousity with possible child hood experiences effecting our sexual attitude later in life, in my case I had not had sex until 26 but in the two years since I have been quite permiscuous in my sex behavior having 17 different partners, I am not sure if this is possibly due to prior abuse or just a high sex drive. But I was curious if there might be any correlation between BDSM and specific childhood experiences, please keep in mind this is just a supposition, and one I would love to receive any and all feedback on.

I believe that we are all the sum of all of the experiences that have occurred in our lives up the point at which we find ourselves today. The question is a legitimate question. It is so legitimate in fact, that if you search properly, you will find any number of scholarly research based articles that have appeared in peer reviewed articles on this very subject. If you are so inclined you can retrieve the articles and read them for yourself and base your conclusions on the research. I disagree with Denzark. In my 40 odd years in the lifestyle I do not think I have met a disproportionately high number of individuals who admit to or fall back on childhood abuse as they reason they engage in BDSM activities. I also do not think that a majority of these individuals use their history as the means of garnering attention or gathering some level of sympathy. I have experienced this type of behavior based on other issues and believe it to be a very small minority of the actual practitioners of BDSM. In my opinion, there is no direct evidence that a correlation exists between childhood abuse and activity in the BDSM lifestyle. Unlike Denzark, it has not been my experience that a majority of BDSM practitioners use their past history as a crutch to inject themselves into the lifestyle or as a means of gaining sympathy or acceptance. I think it is unfair at best to assume that just because someone suffered abuse at some point in their life they will use that in such a way. At worst, it uses a broad brush to paint everyone that has been abused as a manipulator.

My next question and one that should hopefully be a bit more cogent is directed more toward those on the submissive end and is perhaps the biggest question I have. I understand the want to be submissive sexually as I find being sexually controlled in a firm but respectful way to be one of the most liberating feelings in my life, and it has done wonders to heal some of the sexual damage from my childhood. But as someone who desires and works toward my individual freedoms I cannot fathom giving any control of who I am to anyone, let alone full control to someone. I understand that what I may say next may come across as somewhat vitrolic and perhaps offensive, if this is indeed the case I apologize as the following will most likely show some of the viscerality of my emotional reaction and is not meant as an attack on how people live there lives, it is merely meant to show case my current thoughts on the matter and to promote discussion and hopefully an addressal of these emotionally skewed thoughts by those who are experienced in the community.

I am a bit confused by this part of your post. You admit in the second sentence to being sexually aroused at being submissive sexually. You then question the whole concept of the D/s relationship. I think perhaps it is based in a misconception of what is really at work in a BDSM relationship as opposed to an abusive situation. The difference boils down to one concept and that is the idea of consent. Abusive relationships do not consider consent. The abuse is delivered without the consent of the party involved and is usual based in hate, fear, anger or some psychological condition. The activities in a BDSM relationship which seem, in your concept, to be abusive are in fact, consensual. Therein lies the difference. The activities are carried out in an atmosphere based on trust, respect and love. A much different atmosphere than an abusive relationship. It is this basis of trust, respect and love that define a true BDSM relationship. Again, I disagree with Densark. A 5 minute flogging between two individuals is not a BDSM relationship. It is not even BDSM. It is sensation play. If there is no emotional connection, there can be now relationship. By and large, I was taught and it has been my experience, that sensation play is rarely considered BDSM. BDSM, to those who actively participate in the lifestyle, is about much more than just the physical aspects of sex and sensation.


Now disclaimer aside I cannot for the life of me understand the idea of giving up complete agency to another person and seperately I cannot understand the concept of punishment and degradation and humiliation, this to me shows a complete lack of self respect and personal worth and is an ultimately destructive practice for the one receiving such treatment. And as someone who has had to endured unjust pain, punishment, abuse and humiliation, and has actively worked to fight back against these kind of behaviors. I emotionally find the practice of it to be self destructive idiocy from people who don't truly understand how much these type of behaviors warp and damage the person's sense of agency and sense of self worth. And if I am to be quite frank it brings out abit of my psychopathic rage that has been built up as a result of trauma. As it makes me want to smack the shit out of people who engage in this type of behavior, as internally I want to keep anyone from ever having to endure that kind of pain. Given the fact that I know I would not quantify as a qoute un qoute "normal" person I am still very interested in any response the community would be willing to give as to some of there own motivations for some of these actions, as I very much would like to gain a better understanding of the reasons behind the community and hopefully arrive at a more knowledgable and healthier of understanding of the community and its practices as a whole.

I was doing pretty well with your questions and your stance on the BDSM lifestyle until I got to this part of your post. It is, in my opinion nothing more than a rant against and a condemnation of the entire lifestyle and the people who live it. In one breath you claim to be seeking to raise your own understanding in an open and constructive fashion and then you condemn everyone in the lifestyle as being idiots. You then admit that you have considered the use of physical violence against these people. Does this not make you just as guilty as your own abusers? This very contradiction in your post undermines any credibility that you might have gained with me. I am sorry. Somehow I get the feeling that you are here to justify your own faulty beliefs and conclusions.

[Denzark]

@The De Sade, I think you may have misunderstood the original poster's questions and my answers. The OP posed 2 questions.

1) But I was curious if there might be any correlation between BDSM and specific childhood experiences,
2) I cannot for the life of me understand the idea of giving up complete agency to another person

In answer to the first of course normal childhood experiences influences adulthood but the question was specifically about abuse. The OP said ...

An abnormally high number of bdsm'ers I have met have experienced some form of serious sexual abuse.

The question is therefore:

1) Is the number of victims of abuse in bdsm higher lower or same as national average. This means the abuse is suffered outside of and before the person became involved in bdsm.
2) If it is abnormally higher how do you explain this ie what is the cause of correlation,.

My answer was;

a) There is abnormally high number claiming abuse but many of those are false claims which should be discounted. The number of true victims is therefore much lower.
b) The nature of bdsm makes fibbers invent tales of abuse. If they were on another special interest site the lie would be a different one. Fibbing to gain acceptance and respect is a common human characteristic (backed up by research) and explains the OP observation and the explanation.

Your answer seems to be there is not an "abnornally high number". You are therefore disagreeing with both the OP and my observation. You point to a number of "scholarly research based articles" yet your conclusion is not based on these articles but on your "40 odd years in the lifestyle". Are you suggesting there are no fakers and fibbers in the lifestyle especially if we include the internet?

Regarding the second question, you seem to have missed the question. The OP simply could not understand how a personal could give up completely agency to another person. I do not see how you have address this question. You talk of Ds when the question was about Ms.

My answer was clear. The person does NOT give up agency to another. The use of the concept and term slave is fantasy roleplay or within limited timeframes and boundaries ie the bedroom.

Your reply is about Ds abuse consent trust respect love. This does not address the question ie how does a person given up complete control to another. The question is about consentual slavery. This is an issue that has been through the courts. A person cannot give up human rights to another.

Your answer seemed to be in line with what I meant when I spoke about the fine print. By wrapping up the Ms dynamic in the cotton wool of consent, love etc. it boils down to the master only giving orders about something the slave wants to do anyway.

Again, I disagree with Densark. A 5 minute flogging between two individuals is not a BDSM relationship. It is not even BDSM. It is sensation play. If there is no emotional connection, there can be now relationship.

Are you saying that flogging is not BDSM. Is Bondage BDSM? BDSM has come to be a catchall for anything kinky. You are adding the word "relationship" to BDSM then painting it to be the same as marriage ie "love honor and obey". There can be casual bdsm relationships just as there are casual sex relationships. Look at the personals section on this site. Are you saying the couples formed as a result will not be Ds couples or are you saying there is spontaneous love, trust, respect between two people who have only just met. I think you are romanticising BDSM.

If somebody who likes spanking gets together with somebody who likes being spanked then it is bdsm. They could be strangers or married couple. There need not be love. The relationship could be for an hour or a lifetime.

Ds is when the partners derive pleasure, sexual or otherwise, from a real or simulated relationship where one has power, authority and control over the other. The only requirement for it to be bdsm is sane safe and consensual.

[lillyrose]

bdsm is shortened form of bondage discipline sadomasicsm

but definition within this are many. The OP's title is master slave 'etc' ......and reading post they seem to ask about broader concept than strict M/s.

I have some experiance in treating sexual abuse survivors both the child and adult.

my comment is that is irresponsible to suggest that people either lie about nor exaggerate abuse.

The experiance of two forum members that anacdotally report higher number of People speaking of personal history of abuse in Bdsm comparing with general population has 2 major flaws

1. 2 is tiny sample as to to statistically insignificant. it may be simply that people claiming this to be case are the ones more likely to post. it may be that the 2 who report this to be true, are creating this perceived 'phenomenon' themselves in the way they interact with people or the people with whom they choose to speak.


2. it may simply that on sites such as this sexual topics and questions are raised much more often than in the general conversation or in the general public, which would mean that sexual abuse history is more often spoken of.

it is irresponsible comments and attitudes that people make up abuse or even more shocking use past history abuse to advantage for sexual kicks, that prevent abuse survivors from talking about experiance or seeking help.

I would think unlikely that they is a significantly higher number of sexual abuse in childhood in bdsm community than any other, as it is one thing that does cross all socioeconomic, race, education and other boundaries, though I have no experteisee on Bdsm community especially.

[Denzark]

@lillyrose - I agree with that the incidence of prior abuse in bdsm is probably the same as in any other community although logically one may expect it to be lower.

I attempted to offer a reasonable explanation for the OP observation that there is a "abnormally high number". Your explanation is simply to challenge the observation. You do not offer a different observation. You challenge on the basis 2 observers is not statistically valid. This it true but it does not mean they are wrong any more than 2 eyewitnesses are wrong. They may be right and they may be wrong. They are onservations, views, opinions. Your views are not necessarily wrong because there is only one of you !

I take exception to your accusation it is " irresponsible to suggest that people either lie about nor exaggerate abuse.". Tell me why is it irresponsible. Is it irresponsible for medical professional to consider Munchausen syndrome. Is it irresponsible for statisticians to consider human nature in survey responses or to consider that srtatistics may be skewed. Is it irresponsible to suggest people on the internet may be less than truthful.. Is it irresponsible to consider that an allegation of abuse may be false.

Your accusation of irresponsibility seems to come from sympathy not science. The recent investigations in the wake of the Jimmy Saville scandal has highlighted this. Police policy used to be to presume truth when it concerns abuse allegations. However there have been several cases like the allegations against Cliff Richards that have proved to be false. This has forced to police to reconsider. They now deem it irresponsible to presume truth in abuse allegations any more than in another allegation. The responsible way is to keep open mind that claims may be true or false.

You say you have "some experiance in treating sexual abuse survivors". How does one get "some experience". It suggests to me you are not a professional but may have indirect experience like a nurse. Are you suggesting you know more about the issues in question. We are not talking about how to treat abuse here, we are talking incidence and correlation ie cause and effect.

FYI - I have met people online who have told me about abuse that range from cases where there is no doubt to alien abductions. There are undoubtably a lot of youngsters in the online community and comic book mentality is commonplace. There is also those who believe the internet is fantasy land, bdsm is roleplay and they should be "in character" all the time.

[Sk8tan71]

@Denzark

You should start by separating out two concepts. Lying about abuse and exaggerating about abuse. These are two different concepts, they may share some motivations, but not all the motivations and by definition they are going ot be different.

When someone is lying about abuse, this means the person reporting the abuse made a conscious decision to create a situation when there was no abuse. Even then, it is separated into further subgroups. False allegations and baseless reports.

A false allegation is exactly that, you are able to prove factually that the crime did not occur. This is an exceedingly small amount of cases, probably less than 2 percent of overall cases.

A baseless allegation is where the allegation is true, but does not meet a legal definition of a crime, this is a bit higher.

When you add these two items together you get a "lying" (for lack of a better term) of somewhere between 2 and 10 percent of all abuse (I'm including sexual assault as part of these numbers) allegations.

You can point out the BBC cases as a point of contention, but those are in the minority. Just like there may very well be some people glomming on to the Bill Cosby rape story, but for the most part those allegations are being proven true.

Then when you get to "exaggeration" of abuse, then that is a different can of worms you opened up. Because what you are saying with "exaggeration" is that the abuse really did happen, but the level was less than what is being reported. Once again, this can be broken down into multiple categories. From the reporter of the abuse exaggerating to third parties exaggerating the abuse. But the danger in claiming someone "exaggerating" is you're minimizing what the victim is or was feeling, in essence you're blaming the victim for how they are reacting to abuse. And let's face it, that isn't really that cool.

That is why ideally, and some jurisdictions have put it in place, others still need to, two separate tracks for victims of abuse. A track for counseling to make the person whole, regardless of the situation. And the investigatory track which is totally separate from the counseling, which looks at the claim dispassionately and can hold people accountable.

I tend to take the opposite view of abuse in BDSM communities, I tend to think it's a bit higher and more underreported than the community at large. We tend to throw around these great concepts like "openness" and "truthfulness" the reality is that in most BDSM communities they don't want to hear truth being spoken to power. They don't want people to fuck up their good time by asking "Is this path really necessary for you?". I tend to throw out the concept that before letting someone wade into the deep end with a full blown dynamic, that they should be in their mid-20s or older, because of the fact their brains haven't fully developed from a physiological or psychological stand point. At that point I would expect to see claims and rates of reporting of abuse to drop to levels that are more consistent with the population at large.

[Denzark]

@Sk8tan71 - Yes we could and should separate the concepts. I did not simply for brevity and from a statistical point of view they are the same, tainted data.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. You are talking about reported cases. I am talking mostly about online bdsm. The OP spoke of high numbers and I assumed the OP had not been around BDSM clubs (where I suspect the numbers are not high).

There are a lot of fibbers and fakers on the net. Surely you accept this. Online bdsm is often about sexual fantasy and roleplay, This makes invented stories of abuse more likely. I accept the number of true cases that are spoken of would also be higher since in other communities there is less chance of feeling able to talk about it.

Let me give practical example. I spoke with young girl who told me how she could not pay her rent so the landlord took sexual favours. The story then escalated to him sharing her with his friends and in the end he kicked her out naked onto the streets. I asked poignant questions which were evaded. Was it just fantasy? Is it abuse? It sure as hell was not reported. Just read posts, there are often tales where people have to ask .. is this real, where people are posting fantasies as if true.

As for exagerated abuse. This covers many things and is debateable what it is.; If a flasher shows his dick to a woman in the park is that abuse. I suppose it may be. But it the woman says she was abused and gives no details one would assume something more serious. It could be simply not wishing to talk about it or it could be for drama.

[Flaming_Redhead]

But I was curious if there might be any correlation between BDSM and specific childhood experiences, please keep in mind this is just a supposition, and one I would love to receive any and all feedback on.

Now disclaimer aside I cannot for the life of me understand the idea of giving up complete agency to another person and seperately I cannot understand the concept of punishment and degradation and humiliation, this to me shows a complete lack of self respect and personal worth and is an ultimately destructive practice for the one receiving such treatment.

Anything is possible. In my case, I suppose that if there is any correlation between BDSM and specific childhood experiences it's the reason I dislike dominant females. It may also be the reason for my desire for a loving, male-led relationship. Maybe my experiences warped my view of love and sex. However, my deeply held beliefs could also be a contributing factor. All that aside, I don't actually care why I am the way I am. There are simply too many factors to consider, and I don't like to waste my time navel-gazing.

I'm going to ignore your insulting remarks and condescend to answer your question as honestly and nicely as I can.

My deeply held beliefs involve submitting to a higher authority. Most people do this throughout their lives. They learn to obey their parents, their teachers, their boss, the police, etc. I simply choose to go "all in" within the context of marriage. Punishment, degradation, and humiliation turn me on. It really is that simple. When my husband took the new car away from me and told me I had to drive the old one because he didn't like my attitude, my pink bits got all tingly, and I couldn't wait to go to bed. LOL! I know the difference between abuse and kinky fun times. Context is everything. I have no problem whatsoever standing up for myself when someone mistreats me. Try slapping the shit out of me, and you'll soon find out. Someone else's "red flag" might be my idea of a fabulous time. The moral of the story is that when you assume anything you make an ass out of u and me.

[esoryvi719]

Okay, so if I am understanding what you have asked, there seems to be 2 or 3 separate questions here.
1) Why do people engage in BDSM activity?

This is difficult at best to answer with a general sweep of a broad brush. It’s really easy for me to sit here and tell you that people often have
something like a job, or responsibility in their lives, and being a submissive is a way to simply let / allow someone else to take control. Now, to be sure. There are people like this. NO ARGUMENT; however, if I’m going to be honest, I have to tell you to answer this question is like asking 10 different people how to make a cake. Chance are better then excellent you will get 42 different recipes, or in this case 42 different answers. Sadly, all of them would be good, and I would clearly hesitate to speak for other people, especially without their permission.

What I can tell you is there is a bond, a special trust that MUST exist between Dom and sub especially if the relationship is going to succeed. That trust is both therapeutic and beneficial to both participants. Not to forget to mention it’s also enjoyable. That being said, it’s here that I tell you that different people derive their enjoyment in just as many different ways. Some love the physical enjoyment of the orgasm. Some people love the security of having someone trusting them. While still others get
their enjoyment from the process. The “What’s going to happen next?” feeling, or the associated possible feeling of embarrassment if they get caught. I might at this point also tell you that people may choose to engage in BDSM as a means of connecting with the past. In history Man protected “his woman” and the woman served “her Man”. That feeling of being protected and of providing of one you like is still present in BDSM today.

2) Is BDSM connected to childhood experiences?

The Nature versus Nurture thing has been going round and round for many decades. Sadly there is no easy, clear cut and dried answer here. For whatever it’s worth, I think it’s some unknown combination of both and/or neither of these things. Another aspect that is more easily considered today then before is there are a good many submissives who have been raped, or in some way abused before entering BDSM activity. But again
each seem to have their own personal reasons as to why. You mention your trauma, and wanting to smack the crap out of people. First and really important to understand. That is NOT what BDSM is about. Smacking someone is certainly NOT ALL there to BDSM. Today BDSM is about sharing fantasies. In real life, or online. These fascinations are as various
and as numerous as there are people. Some men only like white women. Some women only like having their bodies massaged all over. Yes, to be sure there are far more extreme fascinations; however, so long as it is
safe, sane consensual, and FUN for the participants. There is no problem.

3) Are there people engaged in BDSM who don’t know What they are, or should be doing?

Clearly and resoundingly. YES! YES! YES! The major problem here is people watch things on the internet, or on Television, or they read something in a book or magazine. Then they assume they can do what they see, or read. What has NOT been taken into consideration is there are such things as make up, special effects, editing, and people who write fiction. Also, people in movies have training, and practice. They have other people helping them behind the scenes. As a submissive woman, I can not tell you how many times I have been asked to walk on someone’s chest with 6 inch stilletto heels. Can you say punctured lung? OoucCCH! Unfortunately, there are also idiots out there that want to teke unfair advantage of a situation, and once a submissive is tied up they bring out a lead pipe, or bull whip, or some other major implement of pure torture not agreed to by the submissive. On the flip side of this is a sub who will play then falsely accuse a Dom of rape. Gee Thanks a hell of a LOT!